Is Horse Racing entertainment or sport?

[craigbraddick]

I have been watching more racing this year than ever before and the more I see the more I am convinced racing has to be entertainment and sport in equal measure.

1. I am not talking about entertainment you see on Racing TV but does the game and its gambling opportunities need huge promoting. Is there anything we can do to emulate the popularity of see the Powerball Lottery?

2. You do not need to know the intricacies of Football to enjoy a game. Yet, new race fans are given a program that although has great info for experienced players but is very confusing to a newbie. Why not bring back pocket programs with a brief summary of each horses chances and an explanation of simple bets?

3. What can we (those who work in racing) do to get people to bring their buddies to the track, their work colleagues, have a party there. How can we help people bring their friends to the track and educate them?

4. Without wanting to go into the politics of take out, how can tracks get the serious player out to the track to play instead of watching online?

Every track only has finite chances to develop a customer base and attract and maintain the support of the serious player.

I ask the good people of the PA Forum. If you were track management (and let us try to keep this somewhat realistic) how would you address these issues?

Thanks,

Craig

[rwwupl]

Craig,

There seems to be a disconnect between the managers and the customers.

The managers need to accept the fact that they are supported by customers who for the main part go to wager on the horses. The very minor portion of your customers go to see the small field of horses go around in a circle, and accept that as "entertainment".

The managers have always wanted to distance themselves from the degenerate gamblers.

There is nothing ,nothing that draws the gambling public like seeing a few WINNERS, dance for joy.

The answer is obvious, the problem is the managers viewof things, not the customers.

You need the customers more than they need you. The managers can fix the problem if they would accept reality.Sometimes the answers are so near, they are overlooked.

Make the gamble attractive to the gambler...It is ridiculous now.

Roger Way

[craigbraddick]

Some really good points, Roger.

One of the greatest challenges facing the industry is a desire to be #1 but the inability, unwillingness or stubbornness to change the status quo simply because: "We have always done it that way!"

What I see is the need to turn away from that outlook. Above all, the concept that serious horseplayers are degenerate gamblers is a horrid thing to embrace.

Craig

[Deepsix]

(Hey RW, your first response (before you edited) was better, in my opinion. )

[Robert Goren]

Some really good points, Roger.

One of the greatest challenges facing the industry is a desire to be #1 but the inability, unwillingness or stubbornness to change the status quo simply because: "We have always done it that way!"

What I see is the need to turn away from that outlook. Above all, the concept that serious horseplayers are degenerate gamblers is a horrid thing to embrace.

CraigThe problem is that we are. And everybody who is not a horseplayer thinks so too. Ask any of your friends who is not a horseplayer to give an honest answer and if they are honest, they will tell you that you are.

[craigbraddick]

The problem is that we are. And everybody who is not a horseplayer thinks so too. Ask any of your friends who is not a horseplayer to give an honest answer and if they are honest, they will tell you that you are.

Robert:

I do not think my friends would tell me I am a degenerate gambler because I am a horseplayer and I know far too many serious horseplayers who do not fit that category at all.

But if that is a stereotype people have, we need to overcome it and the way to do that surely is to educate and entertain?

Craig.

[thaskalos]

Some really good points, Roger.

One of the greatest challenges facing the industry is a desire to be #1 but the inability, unwillingness or stubbornness to change the status quo simply because: "We have always done it that way!"

What I see is the need to turn away from that outlook. Above all, the concept that serious horseplayers are degenerate gamblers is a horrid thing to embrace.

CraigConsidering the serious customers to be degenerate gamblers may be "a horrid thing to embrace"...but it has been embraced, unapologetically, by race track management throughout the country.

A serious player goes to the track, and, in today's full-card simulcasting era, may wager $2,000 or $3,000 during the day's races, of which $400 to $600+ is syphoned off by the track as a takeout.

Is this the sort of customer that deserves to be insulted?

[johnhannibalsmith]

....

1. I am not talking about entertainment you see on Racing TV but does the game and its gambling opportunities need huge promoting. Is there anything we can do to emulate the popularity of see the Powerball Lottery?
...

This is one that I have always wondered about Craig. I know nothing about the mechanics of such an idea as the following, so it may entirely implausible, but...

My local track promotes their live product very sporadically and ineffectively in my opinion. I don't need to be promoted to, I'm going to be there, so I can't consider myself objective in what it really takes to appeal to the mortal opposite of me.

But, in blending exactly what your are talking about - the sport/entertainment balance - we have three local television news stations in the Phoenix ares. I don't get the Neilsons on the local news delivered anymore, so I'm just guessing, but two of them are so awful, that the third atrocity must be a clear leader in the ratings.

Now, they'll sling ads for any old crap during the news, local crap that can't be costing The Glass Doctor (He'll fix your panes), Lerner & Rowe (is the way to go, call 8779something50), or whoever that strange J.T. Lundee fellow is pitching cash for my settlement, it can't be crazy wild expensive if this garbage runs every six minutes, sometimes twice in 90 seconds. Maybe I'm wrong and this Glass Doctor is pushing Vicodin and medical marijuana to fix my panes, but....

How much could it cost to sign on the dotted line for a long-term (meetlong, in this case 8months) contract for just 60 seconds every night during the commercial following or preceding the sports? Five commercials a week?

I have no idea - but they aren't going to cover the sport - why not have your handicapper, track announcer do a daily recap - highlight the racing highlights and by all means, spotlight the mutuel highlights. I mean 60 seconds doesn't seem like a long time - but that's all the time they spend covering most of the major sporting outcomes.

And there's no reason why everyone should sit around and wait for a track owner to get up and do it if it is something plausible. The HBPA can certainly offer to come up with some money. Get your sponsors to chip in and float them a little love however possible in reciprocation.

Hell, get a charity on board, pledge some revenue from some specific carryover pool everytime it carries over, give them "awareness" a check, look like a community member, write part of it off since I'm sure there's a shelter that covers something like that...

The permutations are almost unlimited.

I mean it can't be SO prohibitively expensive that you can't a) make it work and b) hit a damn home run if you just play it right and make it seem like a place to be where decent humans congregate and have some fun. And get rich on a regular basis.

I may not be the optimal demographic for a racing advertisement...

...But I'd like to know exactly who in the hell is when I see same repetitious stock footage from the 1997 Turf Paradise Derby with an overlay offering the coveted 2011 Turf Paradise Calendar. FOR FREEEEE. With paid admission, a program, racing form, $5 clubhouse admission, a $5 seating charge, and minimum food order.

I

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Robert:

I do not think my friends would tell me I am a degenerate gambler because I am a horseplayer and I know far too many serious horseplayers who do not fit that category at all.

But if that is a stereotype people have, we need to overcome it and the way to do that surely is to educate and entertain?

Craig.
It won't be truly overcome until there are visible winners. Horse racing lost out on the cool YUPPY generation to poker, a game is perceived as beatable in the long run.

As for getting people back to the track, I think that is a pipe dream no matter what the takeout is. The world has changed, it is getting more and more tech savvy. No need for most to get out to the track anymore other than kill a few hours. It is about betting.

When it was the only game in town, and you had to be on site to make a bet, it was a different story, but society has changed immensely since the good ole 60's 70's and 80's.

It is a sport for non bettors and owners, for the people that butter all the bread (the Horseplayer) it is gambling, and for some gamblers it is a sport very rarely. The entertainment is the rush one gets gambling, making bets and being right or even wrong. Slot operators have figured out how to keep the rush going at optimal levels, horse racing hasn't even tried.


Horse racing shouldn't waste the effort trying make a market that is convenient for them but instead cater to their real market and potential market. By catering I'm not talking about making it easier to bet, it has never been easier yet handle is plummeting. Horse racing desperately needs to seek out optimum prices to grow.

[KingChas]

Is Horse Racing entertainment or sport?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since I have a job that covers my family's medical expenses,
I would say both at times.
Been entertaining since the early 70's.

[KingChas]

Is Horse Racing entertainment or sport?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since I have a job that covers my family's medical expenses,
I would say both at times.


Of course,I forgot to mention if it becomes your bottom line.....It's a job..... :eek:

[Stillriledup]

I have been watching more racing this year than ever before and the more I see the more I am convinced racing has to be entertainment and sport in equal measure.

1. I am not talking about entertainment you see on Racing TV but does the game and its gambling opportunities need huge promoting. Is there anything we can do to emulate the popularity of see the Powerball Lottery?

2. You do not need to know the intricacies of Football to enjoy a game. Yet, new race fans are given a program that although has great info for experienced players but is very confusing to a newbie. Why not bring back pocket programs with a brief summary of each horses chances and an explanation of simple bets?

3. What can we (those who work in racing) do to get people to bring their buddies to the track, their work colleagues, have a party there. How can we help people bring their friends to the track and educate them?

4. Without wanting to go into the politics of take out, how can tracks get the serious player out to the track to play instead of watching online?

Every track only has finite chances to develop a customer base and attract and maintain the support of the serious player.

I ask the good people of the PA Forum. If you were track management (and let us try to keep this somewhat realistic) how would you address these issues?

Thanks,

Craig


1. One of the reasons powerball is so popular is because no matter how dumb you are, you have just as good of a chance to win as the smartest person in the world. If the dumbest person and the smartest person both spend 1 dollar, they have the same exact chance to win. Most people like the fact that they can have an equal chance to someone smarter than them and don't have to handicap for 3 hours.

2. You don't have to know the ins and outs of racing to enjoy a race either....unless you want to bet on the race. Same with football, you have to know the ins and outs in order to make an informed decision as to who to bet.

3. The way to get current fans to bring new fans to the track is to make the current fan feel like he wants to get someone involved in racing.

4. I'm not sure the serious player can be gotten back. In order to really have any shot to make money at the races, the concentration level has to be very high. Its much easier to concentrate on bet structure at home than it is at the track.

I think the key is that you have to make the customer feel like its his or her track. They have to feel like they're part of the experience. I know that this is a lot of work, but the management needs to comb the entire track and basically introduce themselves to each and every patron. A smile and a handshake and asking them how their day is going goes a long way. You'll be amazed at how loyal customers can be if they feel they are 'friends' with the GM or the announcer. Racing fans are a very loyal breed, if you shake their hand and tell them you thank them for coming out there, they'll never forget it. That will go a long way with most people. Not everyone, but a lot of people will feel like "wow, they really care around here, this is not like other tracks"

Think of it this way. If you owned a small bakery and you were one of those owners who was a workaholic and was there at the shop every day, you would really get to know all the regulars. Hey Jim, Hey Joe how are you today?So why then, does the higher ups at most racetracks know very few of their regulars?

Get to know the regulars, every one of them. Most tracks don't have too many regulars, it wouldnt take all that long to get to know every one of them.

[Track Phantom]

Here is the biggest issue. No one in a position to make something happen has ever really done a study on what the real appeal of horse racing is to the "dedicated" player (i.e. degenerate to some).

See, the dedicated player, the guy that goes to the track 4 times a week (or bets online daily) and would drive 40 miles for a racing form if they were sold out nearby, is a unique breed. While most would say the hook is the gambling, I would say the gambling is a means to an end for this player. The dedicated player loves one thing more than anything else regarding horse racing. He loves data analysis combined with opinion based validation. In other words, the most attractive part of the game to these people is digging into the daily racing form and using their knowledge and experience for financial reward. This is the validation.

Why does all this BS matter? Because if racing doesn't understand what makes the big bettor tick, they will continue to try and market this great, one of a kind game to people that want to pull a lever. They will NEVER convert. It's apples and oranges.

There is a profile that racing needs to attract. While I don't know exactly what this is, I would guess it is someone who loves data mining. Day traders? Sports bettors? ETC. It is definitely not poker players or lottery players.

Until these people understand marketing to a specifc demographic requires a detailed, significant profile study, they will keep throwing darts at the board hoping to make a connection.

Finally, I ask you to consider this. If you're like me, you were the only one of a thousand that went to the track for the first time and was immediately hooked. You read everything, taught yourself how to handicap and have played the game religously ever since. Why you? Why me? How come the other 999 people that were at the track for the first time the day you were there making your debut never came back or cared to follow it afterwards?

[Robert Fischer]

a mass media broadcast

is the number one thing that could completely change horseracing.

nothing else comes close, not even slots/gaming.


the states need to get over their moral dilemmas.

the BS tracks have to stop , the cheap claiming stuff at major tracks has to take a back seat...

major tracks(3-5 national tracks only) have to run in prime time(lights)
the rest get relegated to minor league status

a basic cable package, antenna(digital) tv on up
well positioned in the dial(this is important)
etc(think actual expert broadcast television effort)
televison announcer along w/ racing announcer

a couple of the major tracks could alternate in a single night in an organized timing
The broadcast must be live in prime time.
States share revenue
the minor tracks don't get on tv, cable, or slots/gaming revenue
an internet/phone/apps ADW is continuously sold by the announcers in the mass-media broadcast effort

A powerful mass media and television broadcast would grow the player population. Particularly the "entertainment" group of addicts which are precisely those most influenced by a media broadcast. The game would get a huge boost.
The smaller crap would start to fail with lots of tracks closing.
The field size of the decent tracks and decent class races would increase and concentrate at the broadcast tracks.

takeout is lowered. Dumb money increases. Whales increase their bet size in turn. Money laundering operations increase their bet size in turn.
ADWs could even freely offer rebates to single race bet size(bet large get some REDUCED JUICE), and points accumulated over account history(churn a lot over time and get REDUCED JUICE). Sign up bonuses w/ similar stipulations as book making syndicates will be used.

the 3-5 regional are the Major Leagues - field size and quality takeout and media = the best game in the world. Billion dollars industry folks. not this embarrassment of human ineptitude of a sleeping dragon we have now. Coma?

anything less is (uncivilized) minor league

[Robert Goren]

I want to make one thing clear. Even if we are considered degerate gamblers, we are customerS should be treated as such. Something that is not happening now. If you take someone new to race track or heaven forbid a simucast center, the thing you hear over and over again is how seedy the place is. A little paint once in a while please. And clean the bathrooms for a change. There a lot of little things that could help, but horse racing would still be in big trouble. The business model is flawed and until that is fixed, racing will still be a dying game.

[mannyberrios]

Great post! I think that would help.

[andymays]

The closest thing to racing being entertainment happens at Del Mar. It's a unique summer location and the marketing department does an awesome job attracting younger demographic, particularly young women. It's basically looked upon as a party place. The concerts after the races attract a young crowd as well but most of them are there more for the concerts than the betting. They do real well with the booze sales. I think that's where David Israel came up with his famous "Horse Racing is Entertainment" line. When Churchill tried to copy the concert thing they lost a bunch of money and fired the guy who thought of it (I'm not positive about the firing).

The downside of that type of atmosphere is that it's easy to get shut out because you have a lot of people who don't know how to bet trying to make complicated wagers at the windows and machines. Sometimes they take 5 minutes to make a bet.............. and I go nuts. That's part of the reason I haven't gone the last two seasons and the other reason is the polytrack.

[Stillriledup]

The closest thing to racing being entertainment happens at Del Mar. It's a unique summer location and the marketing department does an awesome job attracting younger demographic, particularly young women. It's basically looked upon as a party place. The concerts after the races attract a young crowd as well but most of them are there more for the concerts than the betting. They do real well with the booze sales. I think that's where David Israel came up with his famous "Horse Racing is Entertainment" line. When Churchill tried to copy the concert thing they lost a bunch of money and fired the guy who thought of it (I'm not positive about the firing).

The downside of that type of atmosphere is that it's easy to get shut out because you have a lot of people who don't know how to bet trying to make complicated wagers at the windows and machines. Sometimes they take 5 minutes to make a bet.............. and I go nuts. That's part of the reason I haven't gone the last two seasons and the other reason is the polytrack.


Yeah, the plastic ruined the DMR experience for me also.

I'm sure a lot of So Cal handicappers just can't wait to start handicapping in April when all the horses have already established 'dirt' form at SA. That has to be something that everyone is looking forward to! Nothing better than handicapping synthetic races where all the runners are coming from dirt, makes it a lot more challenging! :lol: