Handicapping Program - Joe Zambuto

[BETKING]

Anyone using Joe Zambuto's handicapping program. I would like your imput. Your results, ease of use, and help when you need it. Your imput would be appreciated.
Thanks,

BETKING

[railbird]

Betking I have his program been using it for abt 9mos.

on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the ultimate ;

1- my results.......6

2 - ease of use......(through e-mail only)..4

3- help when you need it (through e-mail only )..3

4- still cannot figure out how to use his expression builder that I paid extra for..

any specific questions I will gladly answer in a PM

[COUGAR]

I just recieved Joe Zambuto's program a couple of weeks ago.The only down side i see so far is the documentation for learning the program. I like the idea of fine tuning the database and I am curious how outhers uses the program for best results. Even people who dont uses this program, I know there are many who uses databases. What would you say is best ... Looking at a past meets data 3 to 6 months or longer or looking at more of a short term trend say the last month or so or a combination of both?

Thanks for any help.

COUGAR

________________________

For thoses of you that can remember, take a moment a remember " THE SHOE" we will miss him. He was the greatest...

[railbird]

The documentation I also found wanting thats the reason for my failure to use his expression builder. But I was tinkering with
individual distances and found the pace numbers to be very significant , also I must say as a black box it sometimes hits a few good jackpots .

[ratpack]

Originally posted by COUGAR
I just recieved Joe Zambuto's program a couple of weeks ago.The only down side i see so far is the documentation for learning the program. I like the idea of fine tuning the database and I am curious how outhers uses the program for best results. Even people who dont uses this program, I know there are many who uses databases. What would you say is best ... Looking at a past meets data 3 to 6 months or longer or looking at more of a short term trend say the last month or so or a combination of both?

Thanks for any help.

COUGAR

________________________

For thoses of you that can remember, take a moment a remember " THE SHOE" we will miss him. He was the greatest...




For the fine tuning I use the last 100 races then click Quick Check. Then I use the last 40 races and click fine tune until it tunes to the maximum win %.

[analyzer]

Bought the program and tried to use it but could not. Tried to get explanation for nearly 30 days by email only and could not get program to work. Offered to call Joe on my dime to allow him to straighten out the confusion but he refused to talk on the phone to me about the program. Got a refund $10.00 short of what I paid for it. Worst experience with software service I have had. Just my experience. Good luck to you.

[sq764]

Same here.. Had a problem with the disk he sent me and it was like pulling teeth to get another one sent. Very unhelpful and disappointing.

I haven't even put the new disk in, no reason to..

[COUGAR]

I admit the documentation is a little weak, but the program itself i do believe is not. I have seen alot of programs. He has always responded to my e-mails and has been very helpful. It only took me 5 days and quite a few hour to get up to speed.

Now come on guy's... I only see a couple of newbies on this page. There is got to be a few people out there that has been using Joe's program, that would like to share.... ??

COUGAR

[azmike]

I bought, tried it and no longer use it. The user interface was too cumbersome and time consuming. Overall I felt it sub-par compared to other programs I have tried.

Nothing against the author, he seemed decent enough but the program was not for me.

[122425]

I just tried using it "AGAIN" last week.
When I couldn't get the database manager to work with the results, Joe told me I had to upgrade "AGAIN"!!!!!
-COME ON, UPGRADE JUST TO MAKE THE PROGRAM WORK!!!!
GIVE ME A BRAKE!!!

[kitts]

I was getting ready to comment but azmike said it all for me.

[headhawg]

Originally posted by COUGAR
I admit the documentation is a little weak, but the program itself i do believe is not. I have seen alot of programs. He has always responded to my e-mails and has been very helpful. It only took me 5 days and quite a few hour to get up to speed.

Now come on guy's... I only see a couple of newbies on this page. There is got to be a few people out there that has been using Joe's program, that would like to share.... ??

COUGAR

I have been using the program since July and have had positive results with it. Many of the complaints posted here are true (weak interface, poor documentation, limited practical use of the "Expression Builder"), but it has turned this recreational player into a winning one.

Are there better programs? Maybe. I have very limited experience with computer programs which is why I lurk here to read what more experienced 'cappers are using. But it doesn't cost too much and it is flexible in what PP data files it will accept (including the $.50 TSN).

While purists may argue that backfitting data to past results (the creation of "weighting files" in Joe's program) is a foolish exercise when trying to predict future behavior, I have found that this feature puts the winner in the top three computer "picks" well over 60% of the time. Now I don't use this as a black box; I do my pace analysis following the mehods in Jim Lehane's Calibration Handicapping, and then follow that up with the numbers from the Pace Analysis module in Joe's program to select the best value play, IF ANY!!! (A pass is sometimes a win.)

I, too, would be interested in any success stories.

HeadHawg

[CapperLou]

HeadHawg:

If I remember, does'nt Zambuto's software come up with the calibration handicapping horse's in some form or another. I think a lot of Jim Lehane, but I find his calibration handicapping too tedious to use. I have talked to him about having someone write the software for that and it has not happened.

Again, someone mentioned about a year ago that this software came up with the same horses or pointed out something that Jim's manual program does.

Do you know what that is? Of course, now Jim has come out with his Raff Power which gives the FF's of each horse etc.

Any insight you can provide would be appreciated. I think Lehane's strong horses are good spot plays.

All the best,

CapperLou

[Higgins]

Bought the program. Spent many hours working with it to no avail.
Would not recommend.
HSH, HTR and Equisim vary in cost from less to more, but all seem to be more effective and are well supported.

[Mike P]

I'm not using the Zambuto program but Joe has been developing a program for me. All of our correspondence has been by email and he responds back to my questions very quickly. I have only paid him what he quoted me. No extra charges.

[analyzer]

Mike- I hope you have much success with the program you are having designed and if it works as you have requested you will have no problems. In my opinion Joe's weakness is his unwillingness to solve problems he could not solve by email when the program did not work. He" WILL NOT" (his words), get on the phone and try to talk you through anything even if you offer to pay for the call when the program does not work. Big difference between service which can be solved by email and service which cannot be solved by email. He may have call reluctance ( fear of talking to those you don't know), I don't know why he "WILL NOT" talk on the phone as he did not say why. I am not about bashing Joe as I feel he probably has lots of talent I wish I had, but as my Ole Daddy says "If you don't want to do something which needs to be done, HIRE IT DONE." I wish Joe much success and hope this post will be taken as intended which is to point out a weakness in my opinion, and not the end of the world or about bashing someone. In the GOOD OLD DAYS we called this an attempt at constructive criticism. Good luck and Good Handicapping to all.

[headhawg]

Originally posted by CapperLou
HeadHawg:

If I remember, does'nt Zambuto's software come up with the calibration handicapping horse's in some form or another. I think a lot of Jim Lehane, but I find his calibration handicapping too tedious to use. I have talked to him about having someone write the software for that and it has not happened.

Again, someone mentioned about a year ago that this software came up with the same horses or pointed out something that Jim's manual program does.

Do you know what that is? Of course, now Jim has come out with his Raff Power which gives the FF's of each horse etc.

Any insight you can provide would be appreciated. I think Lehane's strong horses are good spot plays.

All the best,

CapperLou

CapperLou:

I use Calibration Handicapping in a very loose way. I use the Red Scan qualifying technique as well as the "form" methods like Turn Move or WIR to validate my top three contenders (computer "picks") chances, as well as seeing if some lower ranked contenders close on the "numbers" deserve a look because they might represent a better value.

To my knowledge the Zambuto program can't get the FFs. One of the weaknesses in the program mentioned in previous posts is the limitations of the Expression Builder. As far as I know it can't access PP information like running times directly, which makes it impossible to do those kinds of FF calculations. I've emailed Joe a wish list of things I'd like to see added and hopefully he'll make the improvements.

If memory serves, the email promotion from Jim made mention of a computer program that calculated RAFF Power stuff, but he couldn't sell it. If that's true about the program, I'm wondering why he doesn't offer RAFF Power for more than the NY and CA circuit. Maybe I'm wrong and he does those two tracks manually.

I was hoping to see more positive posts but it looks like users have had a negative experience or have just stopped using Joe's program. If there's anyone left who is doing well with it, I'd like to hear how to improve what I'm doing.


HeadHawg

[BIG HIT]

HH
Hi sorry can't help you except to say equisim prg breakthe ran down in fraction's and for the individual horse.
Example 6 1\2 f race run in 23.3 45.8 110.7 117.4 would break it down two 23.3 22.5 24.9 06.8 this particular horse was on lead for same race another horse behind the fraction for that horse are 24.1 23 24.6 07.0 and his time was 24.1 47.1 111.7 118.7.Ihave his book two and use it loosely in my hdcp hop it is of some help

[GEM85]

Hello There:
I bought Zambuto's complete program a few weeks ago, therefore my experience is limited.
The learning curve for the basic components is very long, and at times cumbersome since the help files refer to earlier versions of the program and at times are explained as if you were a computer wiz.
Help, as stated elsewhere is by email only...and he always responds although sometimes after a week.
As to the program itself, it's a combination of programs or modules which will make you money if you can spend the time (lots of time) to learn them.
I prefer to play exactas, tris, and supers; However Zambuto's program is more gear towards finding the top contenders (winner). I hit numerous pick 3's with just the top two or three rated horses in each race, and some of them real long shots. The program wil hit a few exactas and tris here and there, and after going into the red, I changed my betting (pick 3's) and changed to black.
The backbone of the system is the pace and self-tune modules.
Everytime you handicap a race you ad it to the self-tune database, and then the results are downloaded (free html) and added to the pace and self-tune database.
The self-tune program will be different for everyone depending upon your approach. I try to be very specific and will break the races down to distance, and type. This further breakdown makes it more cumbersome since instead of just having Sprints, I have 5f mdn, 5f spw, etc, but it also makes it more accurate. Some people refer to this as back loading horses, however after using the program I don't see it that way. The way I see it is if on Saturdays a Jockey wearing purple silks with a black cap riding a grey horse wins 80% of the time, my money goes with it.
As to the pace program, it's not 100% accurate, but it works for me. You can print pace ratings for a race, and they are sorted by distance and speed making comparisons between horses very easy, and will really let you see under and overlays.
The program even has a "dosage module", again more to learn, but it really helps with first timers, this thing even links you to a website to find out specifics about the pedigree.
Overall the program is great IF YOU HAVE A GREAT AMOUNT OF TIME TO LEARN & UNDERSTAND IT.
GE

[keenang]

I HAVE HAD THE PROGRAM FOR SOMETIME NOW AND STILL CAN,T GET IT TO WORK. JOE ANSWERS MY E MAIL BUT CAN,T MAKE HEADS OR TAILS ON WHAT HE TELLS ME TO DO.I HAVE ASKED FOR A PHONE # THAT I CAN CALL HIM,BUT HE HAS NOT GIVEN IT TO ME. IF HE WOULD SEND A MANUAL OR SOME KIND OF DIRECTIONS ON HOW TO USE IT WOULD BE GREAT.I THINK THE PROBLEM IS HE IS VERY GOOD WITH COMPUTERS AND THINKS EVERYONE IS ALSO GOOD.:(
GENE

[Lefty]

Joe told me out of 500+customers I was the only 1 having problems. Hmmmm.

[GEM85]

What exactly are you having problems with?
Perhaps, I can help you figure it out.
GE

[BillW]

Originally posted by Lefty
Joe told me out of 500+customers I was the only 1 having problems. Hmmmm.

He probably picked up that line from Microsoft. :eek:

[railbird]

I think Keenang is correct Joe might be a computer whiz but not everyone is.!

I hate to knock anyones work but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, so here is a list of problems that came with my
copy.

1: what is the function of the self tuning database?

2:how do you utilize the Win analysis screen?

3:what is the procedure for using the expression builder

4: and finally what is with the win statistics screen???

GEM85 any help would be appreciated by more than a few I think !!

[GEM85]

Hi there:
Zambuto's program is a combination of different programs or modules. I bought his "triple crown version V5.5.4" (all of the programs).
To run the self-tune for example, you need the self-tune, results, and handicapping modules.

1: what is the function of the self tuning database?
Come up with best factor combinations of past winning races.

This one will be different, depending upon your track, and how you break down the searches. The main goal of this module is to come up with the best angle at your track, and to do this, it takes lots of time, and trying different combinations. You also need to run lots of races and results through the software.

2:how do you utilize the Win analysis screen?
I don't use this feature, I use the win statistics and personal records along with tvg records. In my opinion the ultimate win analysis is what you keep after paying for everything including your lunch at the track.

3:what is the procedure for using the expression builder
For this one you need a bit of programing skills and math (equation building).
I will also suggest you come up with one equation for sprints, one for routes, one for turf, and one for mdns, since all four equations will come up on every type of race.
Find out what's variables are working at all tracks that you are playing from the "self-tunning module"
You have two types of variables the ones that start with "R_" in which you pick between the last race, avg last 3, avg last 5, or all, and also the elimination if you so choose. The other type of variable is a bris figure.
The real key is to use a combination of different variables.
Lets say you want to see a horse's combined DRF and Bris Speed ratings

(v:R_Brisnet_SpeedRating) + (v:R_DRF_SpeedRating)

Now this one is a simple one, all you have to do now, its to tell the program to use the last race, avg last 3, avg last 5, or all, and also the elimination if you so choose.

Now let's say you want to divide the result by two and and subtract it from the "bris speed par for this level", as simple as this sounds it just got quite complex.

(v:Brisnet_SpeedPar_ForClassLevel) -
(((v:R_Brisnet_SpeedRating) + (v:R_DRF_SpeedRating)) / 2 )

Notice how I moved the Bris speed par first because we will be deducting from this figure.
Notice the first set of parenthesis isolating the addition of the bris and drf speed ratings (first calculation).
Notice the second set of parenthesis isolating the division of the above result by 2 (second calculation).
And then the final calculation by subtracting the results from 1 and 2 above by the bris speed par for the level. Now we still have to tell the program to tell the program to use the last race, avg last 3, avg last 5, or all, and also the elimination if you so choose.
You can actually test the expression before you save it which I think is very helpfull. The key to the module is to keep everything in parenthesis, and remember the sequence of math problems from school (divisions before addition, etc.)

4: and finally what is with the win statistics screen???
This screen tells you wins, places, shows, ITM, exactas box, pick threes and your ROI. I use this screen as an indicator only when I am changing the weighting of factors of the self-tunning program.

My two cents
GE

[Hosshead]

That's all there is to it? It's THAT SIMPLE?

[sq764]

Here's a thought.. A freaking manual that explains this??

[railbird]

GEM85 thats it??? and I thought it was difficult .!( LOL ) Your

explanation was really thoughtful and I thank you but I think

the person that benefited from the sale should have taken the

time to document it. and I also have 5.5.4 because bris changed

their code fro the old version 5.5.3 and also had to BUY the fix.

[Lefty]

After I bght the last upgrade the damn thing wouldn't let me post results to db's. Security error. He sent a couple new codes but nothing worked. So I asked him if i could put it on my laptop with Win 95. He said no prob. Well, it won't even open up.
I just deleted the whole mess.

[122425]

GEM 85

I've found when using the expression builder that when I average the last 3, or last 5, or all, I'll get horse's values that will look something like this:
horse#1--90
horse#2--91
horse#3--94
horse#4--212

[Larry Hamilton]

One of two things has occurred: sloppy code in the averaging process (either bad sums of numerator or denominator) or horse 4 includes a rocket up his ass.

[122425]

Larry

Then he'd be a real stickout in the post parade!!!

[GEM85]

Hi there:
Like Larry said, it could be bad code, although very unlikely since the calculations on the other horses was accurate. But, then again one of the biggest reasons for software upgrades is to fix previous code errors, and a few program additions.

I had similar mistakes on pace calculations, and the problem was bad entries on the DRF file.

On the results program, if a race was run on the turf with the dogs up, Equibase or Bris have all kinds of abbreviations, thus creating extra categories, or in a sense mistakes, that I would have to correct manually in the results database.

GE

[plainolebill]

Originally posted by Lefty
After I bght the last upgrade the damn thing wouldn't let me post results to db's. Security error. He sent a couple new codes but nothing worked. So I asked him if i could put it on my laptop with Win 95. He said no prob. Well, it won't even open up.
I just deleted the whole mess.

Me too. it's gone.

[GEM85]

Hello there:

After I bght the last upgrade the damn thing wouldn't let me post results to db's.

I had this problem with the lastest version, by getting the results from bris "instant charts", and no problems with the regular results files (XRD files).
I contacted Zambuto, and he inform me that Bris had changed the file structure of the free charts, and he sent me a patch (tiny up-grade), for his software to read the files.

GE

[Tom]

uh,
Anyone want to buy my copy?
Never opened it up. :eek:

ESROI came 1 day before this one did, and after looking at ES, I never went back.

[cj]

What's ESROI?

[Zaf]

That would be Equisim CJ. I did the same thing as Tom. When Equisim arrived I dropped Zambuto like a hot potato. Its not that I disliked the program, its just that I found Equisim to be superior.


ZAFONIC

[COUGAR]

Its funny. Everybodys likes and dislikes. It is all in what you are looking for in a program, what sets up best for your brain. I downloaded equisim awhile back( the demo) and i did not like it at all. It was like looking at regular paper form. Since i have switched over to crunching numbers like pace and speed etc, it does not set up for me well. But i am sure it is a GOOD PROGRAM , just not for me. I had HTR awhile back for 6 months and i think that is a great program as well, but again for me to see the race and digest the info it was not quite right for me. Personally using URTI and Zambutos progarm togeather, i can really just see the race clearly. It sets up well for me. Bottom line is there are a lot of good programs out there, it is just what works for you. Its all better than paper forms stacked to the ceiling, Remember the good ol days.......

COUGAR

[Tom]

Anyone ever buy the Mattel Handicapping "computer?"
Used to advertise in the form.

[Speed Figure]

I have the 2001 Money Maker.

[plainolebill]

Originally posted by Tom
Anyone ever buy the Mattel Handicapping "computer?"
Used to advertise in the form.

I bought one. Always looking for the easier, softer way:)

[GameTheory]

There are two issues -- the program itself, and the support. If the program is awesome, but the author/vendor won't help you get it running on your computer, then what good is it?

[modred]

I bought it for $10 from a friend and sold it for $20 years later ...the guy I sold it to still uses it and said it was better than using a tout sheet. But that's not saying much ...some touts are better than.....?

[Lefty]

I think the Mattel toy just uses the money box. Got quite a writeup in the book "Confessions Of A Racetrack Fiend" by Maurice Zolowtow.

[mikejlb]

I bought Joe's program about 6 months ago. It might have value if you can understand how to use it and if it worked right. I couldn't get any support from Joe on the issues that I asked about. I asked for a refund and no response to that either.

Someone told me that a guy in Vegas had a crack to Joe's program that he was offering for free. I guess that he felt that he got screwed too. I wish that I had tried that before buying it. I don't mind paying for something that has value, but I haven't seen the value in this program.

I have been using the HTR program for some time now and this program has value as well as excellent support from Ken Massa. I won't try another program without a free trial. HTR program is free and updates come often and no cost. The database costs for a subscription but that too has a free trial period. I have yet to see Ken put out any BS. The question of value has to have trust as a foundation.

[CapperLou]

Your description of Zambuto's program seems to be the norm here, however, I would like to ask you about your experience with HTR.
How long have you used it? What kind of free trial does Ken offer(does it include the data download etc?
How difficult is it or what is the learning curve before you can fisgure out how to best use it to be profitable?
It seems that many people who use it are very reluctant to share anything about it once they figure out what works to show a +ROI.
Have you actually been able to make money with it or are you looking elsewhere because you have not?

Thanks for any information about it.

All the best,

CapperLou

[CapperLou]

I see you are a new poster here and you can send me a PM relative to my previous post if you prefer about HTR.

CapperLou

[mikejlb]

The software is free to download from his website. There are sample files included so you can get used to using the program. Ken offered me a free weekend trial on current data from HDW. Before using that, it would be wise to learn how the program works.

The program is not difficult to learn and there is so much support when you need it from other users or from Ken Massa. The secret formulas for grinding out a profit are not spelled out but the news letters and other users do point you in the right direction. Ken has told me that I have to get a better handle on using MS Access in doing research to find profitable spot plays.

I have made money and lost more then I have made overall. I accept responsibility for my losses though. I need to make extra money so I focus on the stock market because I know I make money doing that. It requires 10+ hours a day to make money in the market and not much time left for horses, research, or learning Access. I play a lot of trifecta's on weekends. I stayed ahead for a long time until I got into stocks and now it's hit and miss. I hit a couple of tri's for over $700 in the past couple of months so that has carried me but I am not following a proven spot play at this point.

There are others on this board that are much better qualified to respond to your questions than I am. One thing about htr is that it's hard to find any negative comments and that says something.

[trying2win]

--I don't recall Joe Z. posting here for awhile to defend his own program and customer service. How come?

--I still use Snapcapper Pro myself as a handicapping tool (not as a black box). Although this product has been associated with Tom Console's name, if I'm not mistaken Joe Zambuto was the programmer for this software.

--I know some other PA members have slammed Snapcapper Pro, but that doesn't bother me. This software has been the best one I've used so far. Some PA members might tell me that HTR, HSH, A +, EquiSim, or a few other well-regarded software programs are better than Snapcapper Pro. That's okay. It's quite possible some of them are, in the extra features they provide for handicapping and betting decisions. But, just the same, I'm happy with the software I'm using. To each their own.

--If it's true that Joe Z. is the programmer for Snapcapper Pro...thanks for a real good product, Joe.

Trying2win

[COUGAR]

Tryingtowin,
You are right, snapcapper is a great program if you know what to look for and that just takes experience. I guess that is true with any program. Urti is even better because it utilizes numbers from TBI as well but again you need lot of painstacking work to understand the numbers and apply them successfully.

Joe Z, did program snapcap and URTI, he does great work(are you lisening joe). His program is also a good piece of work and could be a great program with just a little more work. Of course that is true with all programs i have seen. They dont messure up with every thing i wont, so i have decided to build my own. It might take me the rest of my lifetime since i am just learning VB6 but we will see...

Cougar

[Jaguar]

Without commenting on any particular individual, I have noticed- over the years- an unfortunate pattern which occurs in the horse software development field- "Burnout".

I am referring to disgust with:

1. The tough nature of the whole enterprise, since handicapping is not totally based upon a racing animal's past running times. There are trainers involved and there is chicanery, compounded by chemical compounds which can wreck a database.

2. The cheapness and relentless carping of non-customers who send endless e-mails, and who make endless phone calls, such as: "If I use your program to handicap 6f Allowance Sprints at Aqueduct, how many winners would I have from- say 1,200 races-and how many second and third place finishers would I have, and what would the average Win and Place mutuels be?"

Or, "Can I use Gordon Pine's par times with your program?" Or, how about "What is your program's winning percentage compared to say- All-Ways Professional Version?"

Or, "My friend bought your program and says it doesn't work on Claiming races, only on Allowance races. -I play Claimers mostly, how can I make your program work better on Claiming races?"

Or, "If I buy your program now, can I get a free upgrade next year or whenever your upgrade comes out?"

Or, "You say I have to build a database and make a model of each track, can't you just tell me now, since you already have such a big database, what the significant factors are at each track? Then I will just focus on those factors."

Or, "Can you send me 3 days of your program's output, I want to see how it does compared to the program my cousin has. Oh, no- I don't want to pay for it, I just want to see if I like it."

Day after day. Week after week. Month after month. It's enough to stress out St. Francis of Assissi.

This is why developers just come to FULL STOP. No phone calls, no e-mails, no refunds, no nada. Can't blame 'em too much.

All The Best,

Jaguar

[Tom]

Seems like every "stupid question" you listed is rather valid froa potential cutomer to ask. If a software developer doens't want to field questions and service potential customers mabye he should look more sutied to a hermit's nature.
We are supposed to buy blind and trust someone we have never met and have no street address for?
Before I bought MPH, I knew the man who wrote it and attended seminars with him-Tom Brohomer. Before I bought into HTR, I lurked on their site, I talked to people who used it. I tried the free sample demo version.
I trusted Nathan and bought ESROI on the basis of good comments here. I aksed him question. He answered them.
Perhaps some software developers might want to follow the model of the successful ones.

[GEM85]

At work, people will ask off the wall, and totally stupid questions at times. My first instint is to come back with a sarcastic answer or question to their question, BUT I DON'T.
When a handicapper/programmer comes out with a product and he or she happens to be a one person show, he'll better be ready to answer any questions which a customer or prospective customer might have...and, if not..."they should never market the goods".
Many questions can be addressed with FAQ's, proper help screens, an owner's manual, and most of all with a product that doesn't have any flaws...This last one is next to impossible since the mistakes start with the people doing the data entries at the source "Equibase"
My two cents

[Lefty]

But when a software developer sells you software anfd then upgrades and you can't get the damn thing to even open on the computer and he won't get it running or refund any money and then says "you're the only one having trouble," then I no longer can recommend him or his software.

[GEM85]

I agree with you regarding the refund...sometimes it's the software, sometimes it's the configuration of your computer or computer itself, and sometimes it's the person.
However, no matter the reason if something does not work for the individual, the software marketer should stand behind their product and offer a full refund minus costs (shipping), and in certain software perhaps a re-stocking fee since most software is not copy protected, and there is a few out there who would buy software and then sell it on Ebay (original and copies of the original).
My two cents

[andicap]

I remember Ken Massa spending more than 1 hour on the phone with me
when I first checked into HTR a few years ago.

Mike at Colts Neck did the same when I subscribed there in the late 90s.

So has Dave Schwartz when I was looked at Horse Street. (and I didn't even buy it!)

Good customer relations is the number one rule of any business.
If you're not prepared to set aside time for it, don't go into the business.

Ken has voice mail -- I presume he eturns calls from time he has set aside during the= day for dealing with customers and sales.

Email is also an effective way to answer questions or setting up a FAQ at
your website to answer the most common ones and referring people
there on a phone message.

[Kappa]

Andi

Is Colts Neck still around? I used them in the mid 90's with some success.

[sq764]

If Microsoft fell under this same mindset, they would have closed up shop years ago..

Bottom line is if you sell a product and offer support, you do just that - you offer support.

When there is a bug in the program, you fix it, and you send out a patch that fixes any of your customer's issues; plain and simple.

You say that programmers just close up because they get sick of dumb questions. Frankly I think most shut down because they don't want to hold up their end of the bargain.


This is why the genuine ones are so valued. They sell a product and stick by it.

[Dave Schwartz]

SQ,

Actually, not quite so plain and simple.

Microsoft CONTROLS pricing. I read somewhere that Windows is the only software that makes profit for MS. Not Office, not Visio, not FrontPage, Word, Excel; none of them. Only Windows.

And they keep making money with Windows because they have not had to drop their price in 10 years while every other software product has seen its price drop significantly during the same period.

Remember that almost EVERYBODY buys a copy of WIndows every two years or so (when they buy a new computer).

Personally, we subscribe to the Microsoft Action Pak, so they get our money EVERY year. But, hey, for us it is much cheaper in the long run.

And as for bug fixes... Sure they patch the serious stuff, but they also fix much of it in the next release... which then has its own set of new bugs.

And tech support? Have you noticed what Microsoft is getting for tech support these days? $299 per hour! That's $5 per minute!

Even Joe Z. would answer the phone for that. <G> (Joe it was really meant humorously.)


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[BillW]

In addition, Microsoft has never addressed the bugs (actually design flaws) that allow the passing of viruses and worms around the internet, regardless of the cost to customers, these are huge. I don't know if the "billions of dollars" cost to business is accurate, but the cost surely is sizeable.They will fix what they can make a good business case for and nothing more. In the case of the worms and viruses (and adware ... the list goes on and on) they find it cheaper to decieve the customer into thinking that they are just a natural consequence of the internet.


Bill

[Lefty]

Gem, actually, these days, most software is copyprotected. A lot of it is dl'd over the internet and complete with licensing codes that will let it only run on your computer. Joe's software ran fine on my computer until his last update AND the new security code. It never worked again and Joe tells me i'm only one having the prob. so he can go fly a kite.

I think if a person buys software he ought to be able to sell or trade it, just like cars, furoture, books etc. However, he should not be able to sell copies. That's copyrite infringement.

[GEM85]

Lefty, I bought Joe's latest version of the program and while the database was working I had a complete power outage at home. When the lights came back, I could no longer get into Joe's program (the database portion or main core).

I know a thing or two about computers, and tried recovering the data. No go, completely removed the program, and re-installed it added the security patch Joe had sent (original purchase), and it created another problem which lock me out of the software completely for a week. During this time I was communicating with Joe via email on how to fix it and we finally got it going.

Joe's license agreement states:
"The software product is licensed, not sold"
However, it also says "You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this agreement provided you retain no copies" and whoever buys it will most likely need a security patch, and would need to contact Joe for it. In the mean time the buyer will be bugging you with calls, emails etc., because it was you, who sold the program. Marketing the American Way, or just protecting your interest?

As to the copy protection, most upper scale software has some sort of protection, however I have about 3 current programs that are not.

I am also against upgrades, (not minor patches)...It usually creates more problems then it solves...I would prefer to remove the old program, and install the new program everytime a real new version comes out; Of course any databases would be saved elswhere, and the new program would be sold at a good discount (about the same price of an upgrade to former customers).

I usually play three tracks, so that's $3.00 for the PP's (I think Bris power number is worth the extra 50 cents), and $3.00 for the charts to work the pace program, now If I want to bypass the pace program, I can get the exotic result files for 75 cents. Now, I get the charts, but I get them for free. Joe is saving me at least $10.00 to $20.00 per week, however it back fire on him when bris changed their format. He was blamed for it, and it was of his hands this specific time.
My two cents

[cj]

One point I'd like to make...if you charge money for software, and it uses files from another source(DRF, Bris, TSN, etc), it is your reponsibility to keep up to date on the file formats and fix any problems changes may cause. It is not out of your hands.

[Larry Hamilton]

Lefty, the really neat thing about PA's site is that there are 1000 registered listeners, probably all horse players who own computers. Not counting 300 or so that are the same 3 guys, that means you have in your grasp the ability to tell all these horse players what a piece of shit you bought. As there are not that many horse players, I would venture a guess that such a proclaimation from a reputable source would be a death knell for a software producer.

by the way, I agree with cj. If you sell software that is fed by someone else's data and accept no responsibilioty for the connection, then I reserve the right to come on here and shout about the POS I bought.

[GEM85]

Zambuto could have used the paid results charts files which are not changed much (years), and save himself from making any fixes, and user frustrations. Although I bought his last issue, I had to get a patch for the result files from Bris to work. I didn't pay anything for this, but my understanding is that some of you had to pay for the patch. How much was it? Was the price paid for the patch worth the savings of not having to buy the results files?

I believe the guy was trying to save the user a few bucks by going with the free charts, and it was the principle of going a little extra, that got twisted.

[Zimal1]

My two cents worth about the general topic of how good a software handicapping program is: It's much more the way you bet the info that counts than the picks/odds lines/info etc. If someone uses a program and bets win only and turns a profit on a sustained basis then that program is sensational given the way that win prices have been beaten down for factors that can be quantified. My impression is that many players have turned to exactas, tri's and P3's to take advantage of potential inefficiencies in betting. How you construct those bets--for example, different dollar amounts for the 27 combos in a 3x3x3 P3,or how you bet the tri (eg, going for boxes with 2 key horses a la Pizzola) will have as much to do with whether or not you win as the info provided by a program. Most programs can help more with P3's than with tris is my experience.
I am the last user in the country of Thorovision which has been mentioned from time to time here. There is no support for it, but I am so familiar with it that I am able to cull out the clues it provides enough to make some good scores, and more importantly, to have some idea of when not to use it. But some of this knowledge comes from having played at racebooks several times with Bill Burns who created the program that Michael Perry programmed.

[plainolebill]

Originally posted by GEM85
Zambuto could have used the paid results charts files which are not changed much (years), and save himself from making any fixes, and user frustrations. Although I bought his last issue, I had to get a patch for the result files from Bris to work. I didn't pay anything for this, but my understanding is that some of you had to pay for the patch. How much was it? Was the price paid for the patch worth the savings of not having to buy the results files?

I believe the guy was trying to save the user a few bucks by going with the free charts, and it was the principle of going a little extra, that got twisted.

That sure wasn't the case with me. I couldn't get it to auto-handicap whatsoever. Without that feature it was worthless to me. Joe asked me to send him certain files to look at so he could figure it out. No response after that point.

The output for the pace module didn't reflect what I was seeing on the screen, there was a button floating around on top of a drop down list, etc. I'm not the only person on this list that had the auto handicap problem so it definitely isn't just a case of things getting a little twisted. No users manual, no help screen and no user support.

[COUGAR]

HAVE WE NOT HAD ENOUGH JOE BASHING FOR ONE THREAD. Joe I wish you would come here and defend yourself. I must admit not using your program anymore ater you not respomding to my last e-mail....

[Myhorse1_X]

I do believe if you get on the e-Bay side and search "Horse Handicapping Software" you will find Joe's program (or one identical to it) for the bargain price of $ 19.95.

At that price, I am not surprised that support is lacking and updates are slow coming.

MyHorse1

[JimG]

Originally posted by COUGAR
HAVE WE NOT HAD ENOUGH JOE BASHING FOR ONE THREAD. Joe I wish you would come here and defend yourself. I must admit not using your program anymore ater you not respomding to my last e-mail....

I don't read this thread as "Joe bashing", but rather problems people are having with the software. This board serves a great purpose in allowing us to chat about different software programs, the good, the bad, and the ugly. If someone has an axe to grind, it usually shows through and the discerning reader can figure that out.

Jim

[JimG]

Originally posted by Myhorse1
I do believe if you get on the e-Bay side and search "Horse Handicapping Software" you will find Joe's program (or one identical to it) for the bargain price of $ 19.95.

At that price, I am not surprised that support is lacking and updates are slow coming.

MyHorse1

Myhorse1,

That is just one part (module) of Joe's program for $19.95. As I recall the full program was about $149.95.

Jim

[GEM85]

"Most programs can help more with P3's than with tris is my experience".
Zimal that's exactly what this software is good for, winners...DD, pick 3's, pick 4's, etc. I have also became quite proficient at it, I was in a 32 day or so strike...plenty of time. Now, I am going to volunteer (with pay of course), to take people to Hollywood Park on my Saturday's.

My horse: That's how I found out about Zambuto through Ebay... althougth he only sales the very basic program there...and a bait and switch to the full program at his web site.

plainolebill: If there is a portion of Joe's program that I think could use some real help is the AUTO HANDICAP. I got it to work, however it will freeze after just a few races, or it'll skip numerous races. I gave up on this feature, and only use MANUAL HAND.

[Lefty]

myhorse, Joe sells his own prgm part one at E-bay for $19.95 no bargain. If someone else tried to sell Joe's prgm I doubt if it would work on the new guy's computer because of all the security codes.
I have 2 computers one with Win 98SE and other with Win95 and his damn prgm no longer works on either and I bght it strght fom Joe. I think he needs to go back to Programming school.

[wononce]

we have to-day deleted joe's program out of the computer.
for all the reason listed in the above threads.

he can keep the $189.00 that we paid . just another bad buy
on my part. we have a program that makes his look like a
baby!! that cost me $131.00 total . we will use this one and
make a dollar or two.




wononce

[sq764]

$189?? Sheesh I was pissed over $19.95..

I feel better now..

[GEM85]

Take a look at: "selections board", the picks I made for Hol 11/19

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
And tech support? Have you noticed what Microsoft is getting for tech support these days? $299 per hour! That's $5 per minute!


no kidding? I am going to have to raise my rates..........nothing better than doing a 3 way conference call with a MSFT rep and solving the problem for them....while your primary customer is listening................they get a little pissed.........and I usually don't have to worry about losing that customer, ever.............

[headhawg]

Originally posted by GEM85
plainolebill: If there is a portion of Joe's program that I think could use some real help is the AUTO HANDICAP. I got it to work, however it will freeze after just a few races, or it'll skip numerous races. I gave up on this feature, and only use MANUAL HAND.
......
Take a look at: "selections board", the picks I made for Hol 11/19


I'm kind of glad I bought Joe's program before reading most of the posts here about it as I would never have purchased it given all of the negative feedback. I'm not sure if GEM85's post implies that he used Joe's program to make the picks, but I have had very good luck with it, both with contender selection and with lack of major problems.

I am only a recreational player so I don't play as much as many of the regs here, but I don't like losing money either! I played last Friday and Joe's program (using my "tuned" files) had several winners including the 8th at WO (#10 paid 23.60). I got nosed out at HAW in the 8th when Lease the Legend (26-1) couldn't get up at the wire. (The Exacta as Place bet also missed as the chalk ran 3rd. Damn the bad luck!) These horses were the top picks of the program in their respective races. I'm not really a longshot player, but these results happen often enough to have me think about changing my playing style.

That being said the program is not very user friendly. As has been posted before, Joe assumes that users are familiar with programming basics, as that is reflected in his design of the Expression Builder and Auto Handicap modules -- not for the inexperienced.

GEM85: Regarding the AutoHandicap module, I only use it to add races to the database in order for me to be able to tune the weighting files. Like you, I'll use Manual Hand. to actually handicap the races that I may play. That way I can use the filters as well.

I recommend not having the AH do too much at once. I only let one track be "active" at a time and that seems to work better than having it handicap multiple tracks. (No skipped races, but also check to make sure that all of your parameters are set correctly, i.e. track, distance, criteria filename, etc.) A bit inconvenient for sure but it seems to work for me.

Just for comparison, I'm currently trying the EquiSim demo as that program has had a lot of positive feedback in this forum. It is an impressive, easy-to-use, good-looking program, and I'm evaluating it to see if I might make a purchase. But my preliminary testing is showing better results with Zambuto than EquiSim.

Just my $.02. Good luck to all.

Head Hawg

[GEM85]

Headhawg: I did used Zambuto's program along with another two programs. Although, Joe's program was pretty much on the wire.

To use his software like you said, one must know a thing or two about programing and computers...very complex, but worth it.

As to having more then one software, I think it's the only way...You wouldn't go big game hunting with a .22 rifle or rabbit
hunting with a .50 caliber machine gun.

my two cents.

[COUGAR]

GEM85...

Your post was right on the mark. I couldent agree more. I was a happy Zumbuto user with no problems until he did not return my e-mail... That was enough for me.....Its a matter of principal. I use multible software also so it really dident matter to me to drop his program and replace it for anouther. If there are still Zambuto users out there check out QUICKHORSE. I have no affiliation but a user and i can tell you it puts Zambutos program to shame doing alot of the same things and more..


Cougar

[headhawg]

Cougar:

Thanks for the heads up about QuickHorse, but the program is asking for my email address which makes me a little reluctant to use the demo. Plus, it looks like its a DOS program. Is it, or does it look and behave differently once they get my email address?

Best,

Head Hawg

[COUGAR]

headhawg...

No, its not a DOS. Once you give your e-mail, ( I am not sure why they do that) , your up and running. I have not had any problems what so ever. I do know the free demo is only good foe 30 days. Let me know what you think.

[GEM85]

i can tell you it puts Zambutos program to shame doing alot of the same things and more..

Cougar:
I downloaded the program, and I won't have any time until next Tuesday to check it out...Would you please tell me what have you being able to do and learn from it; And best of all, make some selections at the track of your choice and post them in the "selections forum"
Thanks,
GE

[COUGAR]

GEM85...

The main benifits are two fold. 1. To be able to DB search your wagers in every way including combiations of exacta, trifecta, and super...and to to it very quickly. There are some benifits that are lacking and they need to be inhanced, but the beautiful part is the program is only one year or so in delvelopment, they are NOT handcappers but programers and are wanting to improve there product. The program has a lot of potiential. I have mentioned some sugestions on there message board but to be able to get some things done they need to get more people involved( more eyes looking at the program) than just me doing the talking, so get over there are voice your opinion once you get up to speed.
ZAMBUTO had a feature in his program called FINETUNE. This program has a feature called SUPERTUNE..... WOW , what a feature. 2. Software is just a tool. I am sure most ( i hope ) would agree that there is no black box. I remember when years ago a was making a living from horses and bj ( and trust me I just keep a roof over my head , no great shakes but it beat punching a clock) anyway i used to spend hours apon hours crunching my own numbers at night from the paper forms of years back, what happened to the good ol days of actually being at the track , going down to the paddock and studying the horses.... BOY, i have got to get back to that.... sorry i got side tracked ...THIS QUICKHORSE PROGRAM.... You can set up your own method crunching your own numbers in the METHOD BUILDER its like having your own method if you will... AGAIN GET UP TO SPEED AND GET OVER THERE I NEED SOME MORE FEEDBACK TO GET SOME CHANGES AND INHANCEMENTS DONE...
And lastly no i will not pick horses and post them. I am to buzy creating multible methods for my own use....

Hope this helps,


Cougar, aka Turfside

[Larry Hamilton]

Cougar, I am not sure I understand your comment. It appears that you are saying that some non-handicappers designed a program and now they wish to have handicapper input. Currently, they have only one--you.


Why would anyone write a program without subject matter experts involved in the front end of development?

I must be misunderstanding you, no programmer would do that....

[Pace Cap'n]

Originally posted by Larry Hamilton
Cougar, I am not sure I understand your comment. It appears that you are saying that some non-handicappers designed a program and now they wish to have handicapper input. Currently, they have only one--you.


Why would anyone write a program without subject matter experts involved in the front end of development?

I must be misunderstanding you, no programmer would do that....

Apparently that is what they have done. From the website:

Right now, QuickHorse only includes the STANDARD METHOD, but we will add more as time goes on, based on input from you the user.

This would appear to be a great opportunity for those who wished to "roll their own" handicapping program, as they are actively seeking input. I have downloaded the 30-day free trial, but my lack of computer expertise precludes me from getting the most out of it, or even asking pertinent questions. Interesting, though.

[COUGAR]

Pace Cap'n...

I dont know if you understood my post or if i did not express myself corectly... There standard appliction is just that. HSH is a program... HTR is a program... EOUISIM is a program... A program is a program is a program... With that being said ... It is the user that brings the program to fruition.. The only reason i like the program is i can develop my own methods using the custom feature( which a kindergardener could follow). And the main reason i like the program is the database's searching capabilities in the supertune mode. There needs to be some features added for it to be a great searching engine, and that is why it would be nice for some other experianced handicappers over there to brainstorm additional features which would bring greatness to the program. So far i am the only one making sugestions for inhancements in the searching capabilities. I dont believe any changes will be made unless more people get involved. Thats it.....


Cougar

[COUGAR]

Larry...

I understand what you said, and i am sorry for any misunderstanding. My only involvement is a push for inhancements to the program in the searching mode and i am the only one over there making sugestions...

Cougar

[nucsub]

I've had several users email me saying..."you need to get on PaceAdvantage and reply to some of the "bashing" going on".

Well, as you can see I dont get involved in bashing or bantering back and forth

I have on occasion responded to some of the threads on this site and I appreciate many nice things that have been said, especially about my program and my software programming capabilities.

I have remained silent and this will be my only comments associated with this thread:

1. Thanks to all that provide me with sufficient feedback that tells me my program is doing something right!!!

2. To those that have provided constructive criticism...thanks
I agree, I can do a better job on the documentation. I plan on sending this winter creating several forms of documentation including a DVD that will take you on a full journey with the program.

3. To the handicapping "Ponce De Leon's", I am sorry my program is not the Fountain of Handicapping.... I would only encourage you to keep on looking maybe you'll find it....

4. To those that said I wouldn't respond via telephone....you are correct. I have to manage me time....there's not to many software houses that provide support via telephone...there is no reason not to use email....

any way....

that's my 2 cents worth...I hope you all have a wonderful Holiday...

and bottom line

it's not what software program you use...it's how often you cash in your tickets

see you at the cashier

Joe Zambuto

[JimG]

Regarding support for this program. Awhile back I upgraded to a new computer and had not transferred this program to it. Tonight I decided to do that.

I had a few glitches in the process, but Joe spent the better part of 2 hours worth of e-mails helping to get me set up on my computer. Just wanted to publicly say thanks.

JimG