Paul Moran: Horse Racing customers aren't dead

[The_Knight_Sky]

A dying breed? - Paul Moran (espn) (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=moran_paul&id=6105392)

"There aren't sufficient numbers of racing customers anymore because they died," Carlino said last week during a conference call with investors and analysts during which he suggested that the company's racetracks were little more than a drag on revenue generated by slot machines.

This is, of course, preposterous.

Its Yahoo Finance profile mentions only in passing an involvement in racing: "Penn National Gaming, Inc. and its subsidiaries own and manage gaming and pari-mutuel properties in the United States. As of February 24, 2010, it operated approximately 26,300 gaming machines; 400 table games; and 2,000 hotel rooms in 19 facilities in 15 jurisdictions, including Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, New Jersey, New Mexico, Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Ontario."

Meanwhile, the typical racino patron, according the demographic surveys, is no more youthful than the group pronounced dead by Carlino -- a female over age 60. And while Carlino observed that alternative gaming options do not draw new customers to the pari-mutuel windows, no one has ever suggested that they might.

[Charlie D]

The audience is scattered in the digital age.


Yep. they are in Canada, South America, HK, Europe and every other corner of the earth that has this new invention called the Internet.


Big pond with loads of fish, but yet the " sharp minds" employed by racing block access to the product. :lol:

[The_Knight_Sky]

Big pond with loads of fish, but yet the " sharp minds"
employed by racing block access to the product. :lol:


Funny - I was thinking more like Simple Minds. http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/UBGX/07.gif

ljIQo1OHkTIWhat you gonna do when things go wrong?
What you gonna do when it all cracks up?

What you gonna do when the Love burns down?
What you gonna do when the flames go up?

Who is gonna come and turn the tide?
What's it gonna take to make a dream survive?

Who's got the touch to calm the storm inside?
Who's gonna save you? Alive and Kicking.

[highrider]

Apparently a mindless button thumper is more cost affective, opposed to a handicapper studying a Nine race program...the latter will Kill You!

[lamboguy]

this paul moran guy is right. carlino wants to get rid of the game, he is an enemy to the support, he does everything within his power to scare people away form the game. i would love to put charlino in one of his slot machines and ship him to siberia without earmuffs on for a vacation.

[alhattab]

Moran is generally right in citing the tracks he mentions as places that have wide disparities in age groups. But how is it that Zenyatta has 60,000+ fans a positive? This was the most dynamic horse in some time, yet she can conjure up fewer than half as many fans as the New Jersey Devils hockey club. Now I love the Devils, and they have a loyal, ardent fan base. But it is a local team in a relatively unpopular sport and the fan base is generally regarded as pretty small, but they have 130,000+ fans on Facebook (the NY Rangers have nearly 200,000, and the Montreal Canadiens have nearly 600,000). If anything, Zenyatta's "popularity" is either indicative of a severe lack of interest in racing, or that in fact its fans are truly dead (or at least so old that they don't use computers or Facebook)!

[lamboguy]

Moran is generally right in citing the tracks he mentions as places that have wide disparities in age groups. But how is it that Zenyatta has 60,000+ fans a positive? This was the most dynamic horse in some time, yet she can conjure up fewer than half as many fans as the New Jersey Devils hockey club. Now I love the Devils, and they have a loyal, ardent fan base. But it is a local team in a relatively unpopular sport and the fan base is generally regarded as pretty small, but they have 130,000+ fans on Facebook (the NY Rangers have nearly 200,000, and the Montreal Canadiens have nearly 600,000). If anything, Zenyatta's "popularity" is either indicative of a severe lack of interest in racing, or that in fact its fans are truly dead (or at least so old that they don't use computers or Facebook)!
ok, you hit the nail on the head! now we know what the problem is, why can't they do something about crating interest in the game? a reconstruction of the game would help, but when you have guy's like carlino running the show you have no chance to making horseracing a feasable game.

[cj]

Some people aren't going to like this, but horse racing is mostly about gambling, not the horses. If you want to create new fans, you have to make it a better game for the gambler. It has been proven time and time again that great horses aren't going to draw new fans that stay, and certainly not new fans that bet.

Nobody is going to rush to a game where they take over 20% off the top. Many of us that are here have just "stuck around" as take has risen. We wouldn't be here if it were that high years ago.

[andymays]

Some people aren't going to like this, but horse racing is mostly about gambling, not the horses. If you want to create new fans, you have to make it a better game for the gambler. It has been proven time and time again that great horses aren't going to draw new fans that stay, and certainly not new fans that bet.

Nobody is going to rush to a game where they take over 20% off the top. Many of us that are here have just "stuck around" as take has risen. We wouldn't be here if it were that high years ago.
Absolutely!

You mean to tell me that the "expert" P4 tickets on TVG haven't brought any new players to the game? :)

I thought everyone who played those tickets was "padding their bankroll".

[fmolf]

Absolutely!

You mean to tell me that the "expert" P4 tickets on TVG haven't brought any new players to the game? :)

I thought everyone who played those tickets was "padding their bankroll".
i second that good post cj.....i really believe over time the racing product will seek its own level...a so called market correction with california leading the way.right now the fla. tracks have the right idea...full fields competitive racing=rise in handle...as well as cal. racings demise due to mismanagement

[Charlie D]

Some people aren't going to like this, but horse racing is mostly about gambling, not the horses. If you want to create new fans, you have to make it a better game for the gambler. It has been proven time and time again that great horses aren't going to draw new fans that stay, and certainly not new fans that bet.

Nobody is going to rush to a game where they take over 20% off the top. Many of us that are here have just "stuck around" as take has risen. We wouldn't be here if it were that high years ago.


Yes it is and if the image potrayed is one of, this is not a honest game, those gamblers are not going to play. Games they perceive as fairly honest like poker, lotto, slots, trading stocks and shares or racing from Dubia, UK, HK, Australia and so on are at the Top of thier lists.

I think US racing shoots itself in foot on a daily basis with it's continued lack of integrity.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

When the guy from Penn says horse racing customers are dead it simply means he plans on giving horse racing customers nothing in the future. He is not going to lower takeouts. When people don't bet Penn racing with its high takeouts he will simply say nobody wants to bet the races anymore. And then the slots tracks get turned into 100% casinos

[johnhannibalsmith]

When the guy from Penn says horse racing customers are dead it simply means he plans on giving horse racing customers nothing in the future. He is not going to lower takeouts. When people don't bet Penn racing with its high takeouts he will simply say nobody wants to bet the races anymore. And then the slots tracks get turned into 100% casinos

*BAR* *BAR* *BAR*

ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding

[alhattab]

Some people aren't going to like this, but horse racing is mostly about gambling, not the horses. If you want to create new fans, you have to make it a better game for the gambler. It has been proven time and time again that great horses aren't going to draw new fans that stay, and certainly not new fans that bet.

Nobody is going to rush to a game where they take over 20% off the top. Many of us that are here have just "stuck around" as take has risen. We wouldn't be here if it were that high years ago.

True. But it isn't a zero-sum game. You can make the game better for the bettor and also seek to attract new fans, who may also figure out how to bet, or bring friends that will. As for converting fans to players, it is tough when that fan who has only shown up for big days naively shows up on a Thursday at Belmont and is treated to an entirely different experience, and wonders why he/she ever went. Imagine if other games/sports worked that way?

[thaskalos]

True. But it isn't a zero-sum game. You can make the game better for the bettor and also seek to attract new fans, who may also figure out how to bet, or bring friends that will. As for converting fans to players, it is tough when that fan who has only shown up for big days naively shows up on a Thursday at Belmont and is treated to an entirely different experience, and wonders why he/she ever went. Imagine if other games/sports worked that way?If the racetracks played a bigger role in educating the fans on the handicapping process, maybe more of them would get interested in the betting aspect of this game...and they would then realise that the difference between a Saturday and a Thursday is not as great as it first appears.

[lamboguy]

Some people aren't going to like this, but horse racing is mostly about gambling, not the horses. If you want to create new fans, you have to make it a better game for the gambler. It has been proven time and time again that great horses aren't going to draw new fans that stay, and certainly not new fans that bet.

Nobody is going to rush to a game where they take over 20% off the top. Many of us that are here have just "stuck around" as take has risen. We wouldn't be here if it were that high years ago.
the takeout now after rebate is lower than it has EVER been in lots of tracks. everyone just thinks that a lower takeout is the solution to horseracing, its not even close. if you lowered the takeout in NYRA 2% i highly doubt that you will get a 20% increase in business. if you asked people that gamble why they don't bet horses, alot of people will tell you that they don't trust the game. and i would think that is a good answer. when you at worst give the appearance of fraud in after the bell wagers, how can you think otherwise. when certain trainers win at a 40% rate, how can you think differently. when you see guys getting put on the bench for 10 days after they fleece the public out of money, how can you think otherwise.

put that together with non exciting races and you have a rotten game to the core. even when you put together a 10 horse field, look at your results and see how many horses in that race are more than 5 lengths behind the 3rd horse, its astounding. what is exciting about that?

quite frankly the game is an utter disgrace today no matter what the takeout is.

[Cardus]

the takeout now after rebate is lower than it has EVER been in lots of tracks. everyone just thinks that a lower takeout is the solution to horseracing, its not even close. if you lowered the takeout in NYRA 2% i highly doubt that you will get a 20% increase in business.. and i would think that is a good answer. when you at worst give the appearance of fraud in after the bell wagers, how can you think otherwise. when certain trainers win at a 40% rate, how can you think differently. when you see guys getting put on the bench for 10 days after they fleece the public out of money, how can you think otherwise. if you asked people that gamble why they don't bet horses, alot of people will tell you that they don't trust the game

put that together with non exciting races and you have a rotten game to the core. even when you put together a 10 horse field, look at your results and see how many horses in that race are more than 5 lengths behind the 3rd horse, its astounding. what is exciting about that?

quite frankly the game is an utter disgrace today no matter what the takeout is.

Not long ago, a HANA representative referenced a series of responses from gamblers who cited takout overwhelmingly as the barrier either to entering or to remaining in the game. I think that this HANA member's excerpt involved poker players and other Las Vegas area gamblers.

Do you disagree with that HANA member's post? It wasn't posted long ago, I am certain.

[thaskalos]

Not long ago, a HANA representative referenced a series of responses from gamblers who cited takout overwhelmingly as the barrier either to entering or to remaining in the game. I think that this HANA member's excerpt involved poker players and other Las Vegas area gamblers.

Do you disagree with that HANA member's post? It wasn't posted long ago, I am certain.Yes...but those gamblers referred to the integrity problems of our game as well.

When you have a game which has both, takeout AND integrity problems...what can you expect?

[Cardus]

Yes...but those gamblers referred to the integrity problems of our game as well.

When you have a game which has both, takeout AND integrity problems...what can you expect?

If memory serves -- and I could be wrong -- but Dean or some other HANA member posted a series of comments about why gamblers either abandonned racing or were not interested in beginning to wager, and the prominent response was takeout, not trust.

[thaskalos]

If memory serves -- and I could be wrong -- but Dean or some other HANA member posted a series of comments about why gamblers either abandonned racing or were not interested in beginning to wager, and the prominent response was takeout, not trust.I agree with you Cardus, and I remember the article...but they mentioned the integrity of the game as well.

Take a look at Lamboguy's comment, which you highlighted. He doesn't say that integrity is the MAIN concern...although I think that it is...He says that if you ask gamblers why they don't bet on horses, "a lot of them" will say that they don't trust the game...

Forget other gamblers...let me ask YOU a question:

Would YOU play a dishonest game...even with a 10% takeout?

[Cardus]

I agree with you Cardus, and I remember the article...but they mentioned the integrity of the game as well.

Take a look at Lamboguy's comment, which you highlighted. He doesn't say that integrity is the MAIN concern...although I think that it is...He says that if you ask gamblers why they don't bet on horses, "a lot of them" will say that they don't trust the game...

Forget other gamblers...let me ask YOU a question:

Would YOU play a dishonest game...even with a 10% takeout?

It is exactly what he is posting.

[thaskalos]

It is exactly what he is posting.This is the part of Lamboguy's post that you highlighted:

"If you asked people that gamble why they don't bet horses A LOT of people would say that they don't trust the game."

No sane person would argue with this comment...because it's 100% true!

Horseplayers are ridiculed even by other gamblers...because we continue to play this game, even after all the cheating scandals that have been publicized thru the years.

[lamboguy]

i not only question integrity in the game, i challenge almost every aspect of the way the game is conducted. there are plenty of other issues that are not being adressed on this or any other board, like kickbacks at the horse sales, the overcharging by trainers and veteranarians, and the overpaid salaries at race tracks.

let us not forget that the 2 most important components of the game are the gamblers and the horse owners. not to long ago you had smaller owners that were able to compete in the game, not today. what has happened in the game is the same thing that has happened in the corporate world. wallmarts, cvs, walgreen, home depot have all come up with a game plan to knock out the little guy. they did this at first by cutting prices to get rid of them, after they got rid of them the prices have increased more than what the smaller guys ever charged.

all that lowering takeouts will do right now without fixing everything else is just prolong the agony. its not going to bring new people into the game, its just going to keep the people in it right now here longer.

i think that takeouts are to high and do need to be lowered, but i know that by concentrating my efforts on only that aspect of the game is not going to help matters.

the game needs restructuring, when you have guys like carlino calling the shots and trying to kill the game, there will be no chance of that. there are some fine people in the game right now and they should sit down at the table and work out a plan that will benefit racing instead of subtracting from it.

[aaron]

Another aspect of racing that keeps players away is that it takes time for a person to learn the game and hold his/her own. Nobody is around to teach the game properly.
In defense of the game,I know people who stopped going to the track and instead went to casino's. These people without exception got themselves in trouble. It seems players at the race track can hold their own,while casino players eventually get beat up.

[andymays]

Executives' harsh comments don't help sagging industry - Sports - ReviewJournal.com

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/executives-harsh-comments-don-t-help-sagging-industry-115863834.html

Excerpt:

If you were the commissioner of horse racing and heard these two quotes from high-ranking racing executives, what would you do?

"The average age of our on-track customer is deceased, and the average age of our satellite customer is decomposed."

"There aren't sufficient numbers of racing customers anymore because they died."

[lamboguy]

Another aspect of racing that keeps players away is that it takes time for a person to learn the game and hold his/her own. Nobody is around to teach the game properly.
In defense of the game,I know people who stopped going to the track and instead went to casino's. These people without exception got themselves in trouble. It seems players at the race track can hold their own,while casino players eventually get beat up.this is the way society is today. slot machine's have done nothing but wreck the lives of plenty of family's in this country. the old saying goes that i went to vegas in a $50,000 limousine and left in a $250,000 motorcoach. in the racing game i can come up with countless stories how racing helped keep a family together, whether on a farm or training horses on a racetrack. maybe hana should devote some time to helping get rid of slot machines and casino's. from a selfish standpoint i race a few horses and have benefited from slot machines in the form of higher purses, i would be more than happy to forgo slot machine purses to get rid of them in our society all together. maybe jon kyl had the right idea just the wrong target, he should have targeted the casino's that gave him campaign contributions through the years instead of the internet for poker players.

they have managed to cheapen up the casino industry though the years as well, like dress codes to walk into one of them joints. i haven't been to monte carlo in years but i remember when they required a tuxedo to walk into a casino and that you had to be in the country at least 24 hours before you got in the door.

california racing has always been a tough go just because of where it is, the proximity between kentucky and them is over 2000 miles. kentucky is between new york, lousiana, chicago and florida. it is alot easier for them to get horses to all those venuses. california tried hard to compete and was successful for years with their breeding program and quality of horses. the quality of horses have gone way down in the last 20 years, alot of the top stallions and brood mares have left the shorses here never to return and california has suffered big time from that and haven't been able to overcome it. alot of the top trainers that were in california have either left or have split up their stables, sending the better horses to other places. at the same time the toc have done everything within their means to scare bettors away from california. rules, takeout and rewarding the very few.

carlino is the enemy of the game, he is going to take over as many racetracks as he can get his hands on, convert them over to slots and casino's and throw the racing game out. i would love to see hana concentrate their efforts of getting him and people like him removed from the game..

[LowerTakeout]

if you asked people that gamble why they don't bet horses, alot of people will tell you that they don't trust the game.

The reason alot of people don't trust the game is because the takeouts are way too high. They lose money too quickly and thus think the races are fixed. If takeouts were low, people would have alot more winning days and think the races are much more honest.

[alhattab]

carlino is the enemy of the game, he is going to take over as many racetracks as he can get his hands on, convert them over to slots and casino's and throw the racing game out. i would love to see hana concentrate their efforts of getting him and people like him removed from the game..

I hope he's successful. Getting racing out of some of these backwaters would help the game where it can actually thrive, leading to a better all-around product for us and better future prospects for the industry as a whole.

[Charlie D]

I hope he's successful. Getting racing out of some of these backwaters would help the game where it can actually thrive, leading to a better all-around product for us and better future prospects for the industry as a whole.

I tend to agree alhattab, there is an oversaturation of product resulting in a lot of uncompetitive, uninteresting (from a betting angle) races.


Bettors saying, Pass, Pass, Pass is not good for the horsemens, tracks revenue stream from handle, but they have slots welfare in a lot of places now so probably don't care about this

[Linny]

Moran is generally right in citing the tracks he mentions as places that have wide disparities in age groups. But how is it that Zenyatta has 60,000+ fans a positive? This was the most dynamic horse in some time, yet she can conjure up fewer than half as many fans as the New Jersey Devils hockey club. Now I love the Devils, and they have a loyal, ardent fan base. But it is a local team in a relatively unpopular sport and the fan base is generally regarded as pretty small, but they have 130,000+ fans on Facebook (the NY Rangers have nearly 200,000, and the Montreal Canadiens have nearly 600,000). If anything, Zenyatta's "popularity" is either indicative of a severe lack of interest in racing, or that in fact its fans are truly dead (or at least so old that they don't use computers or Facebook)!


Peoploe who are becoming "friends" of Z on FB ar not likely to be bettors anyhow. I am fan of the game. I read up on breeding and business issues as well as what's going on at the track. I am first and foremost though, a bettor. I'm not someone inclined to become a fan of a horse on FB, but if I like his price I'll bet on him.
Odds are that the 60k fans of Z amounted to about $500 of betting action during the big mare's career.

[RXB]

I hope he's successful. Getting racing out of some of these backwaters would help the game where it can actually thrive, leading to a better all-around product for us and better future prospects for the industry as a whole.

Well said. :ThmbUp:

[lamboguy]

everyone always says the same thing, racing needs to be cut back. do you ever wonder why casino's are popping up all over the place and seems to be the biggest growing part of the gambling business?

the answer is a very simple one, the people that run those things know how to run gambling operations. it doesn't matter if the chop on the slot machine is 5%, 10%, or 15%, they know how to cater to gamblers. horseracing has less of a take with rebates these days and cannot compete with casino's. the reason why carlino wants to get rid of racing is because he knows that if racing is run properly it would be an easy threat to his slot machines.

[RXB]

I don't think horse racing poses even the slightest threat to casinos, whether it's operated intelligently or not.

Horse racing has very high overhead costs and requires not only gamblers but also horse owners who are willing to lose plenty of money.

Plus, most slots players haven't the slightest interest in horse racing.

Carlino doesn't want to get rid of horse racing because it's a threat, he wants to get rid of horse racing because having to operate a race meeting is a drain on corporate profits (which come from the casino).

[Charlie D]

Lamboguy

Racing is not catering for gamblers with loads of 10 race cards coming from every direction everyday, they are catering to the horsemen


The majority of bettors dont want anything to do with races where the price of the horse they like is 2-1, 3-2, evens, 4-5, 1-2 They want them to be 5-2, 3-1, 4-1 5-1,. This means they PASS a hell of lot, this means they bet less, this then means there is less for the horsemen, tracks to slice up between them



Look at HK, few races,= competitive racing = massive handle, look at UK, only a few meets a day = competitive racing = massive amounts bet


People love competitive racing like you get at BC, they also love the competitive racing when it's a Seller from Southwell on wet, wintery day too and if those Cheap Claimers in US were 12 strong with say a 3-1, 4-1 fav they would be loving that too and the amount bet per person would increas imho.

[Charlie D]

If the pools are strong instead of weak like now the Whales can bet more, thats more revenue for racing industry


The lunatics are in charge of the asylum and they are constantly shooting themselves in the foot.

[Twenty Seven]

I don't think horse racing poses even the slightest threat to casinos, whether it's operated intelligently or not.

Horse racing has very high overhead costs and requires not only gamblers but also horse owners who are willing to lose plenty of money.

Plus, most slots players haven't the slightest interest in horse racing.

Carlino doesn't want to get rid of horse racing because it's a threat, he wants to get rid of horse racing because having to operate a race meeting is a drain on corporate profits (which come from the casino).

Yes.

Back to the takeout argument. The big $$ pouring into horse racing don't come from fans worried about the integrity of the game; they come from gamblers who get most or all of their profits (or at least cover ) from rebates. The other medium- to big-bankroll bettors are monomaniacal in the time and effort they put into handicapping and structuring wagers, and have to be so in order to even tread water with the ridiculous track rake.

And new fans/neophyte bettors don't worry about the integrity of the game either, they worry about turning $10 into $100 with some tentative, as-yet-to-be-verified insight.

Gamblers in both categories are what are called long-range potential, in marketing terms. That is, a non-wagering fan, virtually clueless about the game, even if they are coverted to being a consistent bettor, will typically go through a long apprentice period where they'll typically be betting small amounts as well as (at times) leaving the game altogether.

It's no wonder at all that Carlino's priority for horse racing is lower than a snake in a wheel rut. Casino games can be marketed easily as a no-effort impulse play for a lot of mouth-breathers with disposable income. The difference is that when those people tap out, there'll always be a fresh supply of blackjack and roulette dreamers to take their place.

With horse racing, each individual bettor is a much more rare, and valuable, commodity. So when the higher takeout rate (20% contrasted to 5% - 10% on slots; 2-3% I believe it is on blackjack) catches up to the novice horseplayer in short order, there're relatively few newbies around to take their places.

Lower takeout to 10% - 12%, and horse racing has a chance.

[NJ Stinks]

The reason alot of people don't trust the game is because the takeouts are way too high. They lose money too quickly and thus think the races are fixed. If takeouts were low, people would have alot more winning days and think the races are much more honest.

I don't think trust has anything to do with it. Sure, there are scandals from time to time but I don't think gamblers are avoiding the game because the game is fixed.

It's the takeout period IMO. I lose around 15% of my bets most years. Knock the takeout down to the level of blackjack, craps, or that 2% Lamboguy tossed out there and my churn increases dramatically.

Another thing. I know well a few guys who are heavy hitters at casino games. (Not slots, of course.) These guys were big horseplayers at one time. Now they usually only take a plunge on big racing days because they know they can't beat the 20% takeout for any length of time.

One other note related to CJ's that I mentioned here before. I love horseracing. And my betting isn't chump change but it's nothing like a whale either. Having said that, I wouldn't encourage a niece, nephew, or any other young person to share my love for playing the horses. No way in good conscience could I promote any game with a 20% takeout. Better they learn to play blackjack, craps, sports betting, or poker if they want to gamble.

[lamboguy]

Yes.

Back to the takeout argument. The big $$ pouring into horse racing don't come from fans worried about the integrity of the game; they come from gamblers who get most or all of their profits (or at least cover ) from rebates. The other medium- to big-bankroll bettors are monomaniacal in the time and effort they put into handicapping and structuring wagers, and have to be so in order to even tread water with the ridiculous track rake.

Gamblers in both categories are what are called long-range potential, in marketing terms. That is, a non-wagering fan, virtually clueless about the game, even if they are coverted to being a consistent bettor, will typically go through a long apprentice period where they'll typically be betting small amounts as well as (at times) leaving the game altogether.

It's no wonder at all that Carlino's priority for horse racing is lower than a snake in a wheel rut. Casino games can be marketed easily as a no-effort impulse play for a lot of mouth-breathers with disposable income. The difference is that when those people tap out, there'll always be a fresh supply of blackjack and roulette dreamers to take their place.

With horse racing, each individual bettor is a much more rare, and valuable, commodity. So when the higher takeout rate (20% contrasted to 5% - 10% on slots; 2-3% I believe it is on blackjack) catches up to the novice horseplayer in short order, there're relatively few newbies around to take their places.

Lower takeout to 10% - 12%, and horse racing has a chance.
takeout already is lower than 10% from most tracks after the rebate. penn national win place show takeout is 17%, rebate is 9%, subtract the 2 you now pay only 8%. that is a lower take than most slot machines in this country.

even so. cal racing, takeout for w-p-s is 15%, if you are doing business in rgs or elite you get as high as 7% rebate, even so. cal is lower than slots. not everyone can get those rebates, but they are there. even the tricks place your takeout under 10%, that also lower than most slot machines.

racings problem's are not high takeout, its miss management.

[Charlie D]

racings problem's are not high takeout, its miss management.


:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[Cardus]

takeout already is lower than 10% from most tracks after the rebate. penn national win place show takeout is 17%, rebate is 9%, subtract the 2 you now pay only 8%. that is a lower take than most slot machines in this country.

even so. cal racing, takeout for w-p-s is 15%, if you are doing business in rgs or elite you get as high as 7% rebate, even so. cal is lower than slots. not everyone can get those rebates, but they are there. even the tricks place your takeout under 10%, that also lower than most slot machines.

racings problem's are not high takeout, its miss management.

There are far more men than women in positions of power in racing, no?

[lamboguy]

There are far more men than women in positions of power in racing, no?maybe that is the problem, we don't have any talented women running the ship. believe me, they can't do any worse.

[alhattab]

everyone always says the same thing, racing needs to be cut back. do you ever wonder why casino's are popping up all over the place and seems to be the biggest growing part of the gambling business?

the answer is a very simple one, the people that run those things know how to run gambling operations. it doesn't matter if the chop on the slot machine is 5%, 10%, or 15%, they know how to cater to gamblers. horseracing has less of a take with rebates these days and cannot compete with casino's. the reason why carlino wants to get rid of racing is because he knows that if racing is run properly it would be an easy threat to his slot machines.

I have no doubt there is some truth to this. In other words, if racing was more (you fill in the blank- entertaining, in better/more modern surroundings, had better comps like free drinks, better looking women waiting tables and serving drinks, etc) people would be more willing to put up with the cost.

[Kelso]

I hope he's successful. Getting racing out of some of these backwaters would help the game where it can actually thrive, leading to a better all-around product for us and better future prospects for the industry as a whole.

And there's the answer!! Close every track at which purses are now subsidized by other forms of (more popular) gambling.

Then the horsemen won't have to cry about "their" tracks (not really, but they think that way) not being competitive with racinos. Tracks can get back to competing on the bases of competitive fields, honest races and lower prices.

The horsemen will love it ... won't they?

[Twenty Seven]

takeout already is lower than 10% from most tracks after the rebate. penn national win place show takeout is 17%, rebate is 9%, subtract the 2 you now pay only 8%. that is a lower take than most slot machines in this country.

even so. cal racing, takeout for w-p-s is 15%, if you are doing business in rgs or elite you get as high as 7% rebate, even so. cal is lower than slots. not everyone can get those rebates, but they are there. even the tricks place your takeout under 10%, that also lower than most slot machines.

racings problem's are not high takeout, its miss management.

The OP's thread has to do with getting new blood into horse racing, and with Penn's lack of desire to do anything about it.

Of course it's attractive to whales to play with massive rebates. And though new players are created this way, one thing that isn't often mentioned is just because a bettor pumps millions through ADWs doesn't mean they have an easy time of it. They still have to be better than the crowd just to break even, even with the 8% or 10%. And they're doing so with the added stress of having to flood the pools with a minimum level to earn their %, while also juggling multiple tracks and trying to keep a level head with respect to pertinent, very late changes in scratches, track bias, odds drops and drifts, and reconstruction of wagers.

That said, with takeout being lowered to a blended 10 %, rebates would dry up because of the elimination of the $$ differential to ADWs which they pass on to whales. The beneficiaries then are ALL bettors playing to the reduced cut, while also eliminating the unlevel playing field. This can only add big-time to the bottom line for bettor AND management.

The reason I contrasted racing's 20% blended takeout with the lower take from slots, blackjack, roulette, etc, is to show that Las Vegas (at least until the recession hit -- nothing to do with casino management problems) is lit up with a kajillion watts because they know what the optimal takeout rate is -- that is, getting the most from the customer while not maxing them out to the degree that they'll leave soon and forever. Slots players are able to churn what they do win back into the game and stay at their chair all day. Horse racing bettors, on the other hand, line up much more frequently at the ATM machine after losing in the 3rd or 4th race. And that's with semi-involved players who at least know the rudiments of handicapping.

Casinos can't directly be compared to horse racing because the former (poker aside) are filled with negative-expectation games. But lowering the takeout to even double the levels of most of the fools' preferences in gaming means horse racing can be beaten by hard work and patience. Then we'd have a lot more winning bettors who get lauded in the news, and the game -- like poker -- would feed off itself with even more new blood.

I partly agree with you. Management IS killing the game. Not lowering takeout significantly is the main reason management is poor.

[Stillriledup]

The OP's thread has to do with getting new blood into horse racing, and with Penn's lack of desire to do anything about it.

Of course it's attractive to whales to play with massive rebates. And though new players are created this way, one thing that isn't often mentioned is just because a bettor pumps millions through ADWs doesn't mean they have an easy time of it. They still have to be better than the crowd just to break even, even with the 8% or 10%. And they're doing so with the added stress of having to flood the pools with a minimum level to earn their %, while also juggling multiple tracks and trying to keep a level head with respect to pertinent, very late changes in scratches, track bias, odds drops and drifts, and reconstruction of wagers.

That said, with takeout being lowered to a blended 10 %, rebates would dry up because of the elimination of the $$ differential to ADWs which they pass on to whales. The beneficiaries then are ALL bettors playing to the reduced cut, while also eliminating the unlevel playing field. This can only add big-time to the bottom line for bettor AND management.

The reason I contrasted racing's 20% blended takeout with the lower take from slots, blackjack, roulette, etc, is to show that Las Vegas (at least until the recession hit -- nothing to do with casino management problems) is lit up with a kajillion watts because they know what the optimal takeout rate is -- that is, getting the most from the customer while not maxing them out to the degree that they'll leave soon and forever. Slots players are able to churn what they do win back into the game and stay at their chair all day. Horse racing bettors, on the other hand, line up much more frequently at the ATM machine after losing in the 3rd or 4th race. And that's with semi-involved players who at least know the rudiments of handicapping.

Casinos can't directly be compared to horse racing because the former (poker aside) are filled with negative-expectation games. But lowering the takeout to even double the levels of most of the fools' preferences in gaming means horse racing can be beaten by hard work and patience. Then we'd have a lot more winning bettors who get lauded in the news, and the game -- like poker -- would feed off itself with even more new blood.

I partly agree with you. Management IS killing the game. Not lowering takeout significantly is the main reason management is poor.

Walk thru a 5 star casino in Vegas and you'll see crystal, marble and lots of hot women. Walk thru an american racetrack that's not a 'boutique' track and you'll see the place falling down. Both places offer gambling, but one does it right and they other? Well, not so much.

[samyn on the green]

Takeout takeout takeout. Yes a real concern for a few but why does the high takeout trifecta(25%) have double the handle of the low takeout(12%) pick 3 at Sam Houston?

Horseplaying for most is a vice based on compulsion, not a action based on reason. Sorry, but this is the lansscape that the game is built on. There is nothing we can do to change that. Management knows this.

[Twenty Seven]

Walk thru a 5 star casino in Vegas and you'll see crystal, marble and lots of hot women. Walk thru an american racetrack that's not a 'boutique' track and you'll see the place falling down. Both places offer gambling, but one does it right and they other? Well, not so much.


Very poor analogy. How much of a track's handle comes from on-track patrons? And people would flock to the track if takeout were lowered, but would stay away if offered ridiculous takeout even if the track decides to throw the bettors a bone via a fresh paint job and a smiling front-door greeter. I know. My home track is situated in a gorgeous location (mountains, inlet, open spaces), takeout is still high, and the wind blows through the empty grandstand. (By the way, I haven't met many hot women at any race track I've frequented, have you? Perhaps we should put on more silent circus features to lure them in, which in turn will attract more bettors?)