up for grabs: Monmouth Park and 4 OTW's

[The_Knight_Sky]

RFP Being Developed for Monmouth Park Suitors (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/61225/rfp-being-developed-for-monmouth-park-suitors?source=rss)- By Tom LaMarra

New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority officials are preparing a request for proposals for parties interested in purchasing Monmouth Park.

The Monmouth RFP will include provisions for four off-track wagering parlors assigned to the NJSEA. Christie recently conditionally vetoed OTW legislation and suggested changes in light of ongoing negotiations; the bill currently requires license-holders to show “progress” in developing OTW parlors by January 2012.

Thus far the NJSEA has opened only one :ThmbDown: of nine possible betting facilities. Two private track operators in New Jersey have each opened one, but they only each get three.

[Robert Goren]

P T Barnum once said "There is a sucker born every minute." This will put his theory to the test.

[onefast99]

As I mentioned several weeks ago when you posted on the Meadowlands 4 sale sign appearing in the wondow, the present administration feels as if the NJSEA cannot run its race-tracks so the 4-sale sign is now out at MP. A few things to scare off any potential buyer would be the inability of the OTW's to eventually be built due to the towns fighting them(Greenbrook NJ for one)and the possibility the Meadowlands fails and eventually becomes a full casino. Add the NY slots and probably eventual full casinos to the mix which would keep those NYC betting dollars right in New York. Combine that with the issuance of the OTW licenses to the owners of AC and Freehold(allowed 3) and the competition for those horse racing dollars would make any investor think twice before getting involved.

[Canarsie]

Who gets to run exchange wagering if private investors are buying the tracks?

I wonder if Dave Weaver being dropped by TVG has anything to do with the first question.

I don't think Gural is buying (hope I'm dead wrong) is buying the Meadowlands but if I'm wrong wonder if TVG has a deal to broadcast Tioga. That also goes to question one.

Old Bridge would a great location for an ADW right on the Monmouth/Middlesex border. I know a perfect location if the BJ's warehouse ever decides not to renew their lease. The law banning ADW's in Monmouth also needs to be repealed.

[The_Knight_Sky]

Old Bridge would a great location for an ADW right on the Monmouth/Middlesex border.




I'm not 100% sure if Old Bridge wants to host OTW at this time.
But it's about 15 minutes from Woodbridge and
that sports-bar OTW is nearly always packed.
So there's interest in the Central NJ area for sure.

Convenience is the name of the game. :ThmbUp:

That said I think there should be OTW's on the northern NJ border
where New Yorkers can travel in and play without the ridiculous OTB surcharge.
Also a few on the western border (including Cherry Hill) would take advantage of people unwilling to travel out of state on a regular basis.

[onefast99]

Also a few on the western border (including Cherry Hill) would take advantage of people unwilling to travel out of state on a regular basis.

There lies the problem if you think Parx is going to let an OTW in the Cherry Hill area without a fight you are mistaken. It has been rumored for quite a while that the site selected by the NJSEA at the Cherry Hill Mall seems to be taking forever to get up and running. Wonder why.

[point given]

I'm not 100% sure if Old Bridge wants to host OTW at this time.
But it's about 15 minutes from Woodbridge and
that sports-bar OTW is nearly always packed.
So there's interest in the Central NJ area for sure.

Convenience is the name of the game. :ThmbUp:

That said I think there should be OTW's on the northern NJ border
where New Yorkers can travel in and play without the ridiculous OTB surcharge.
Also a few on the western border (including Cherry Hill) would take advantage of people unwilling to travel out of state on a regular basis.

You can pay a $5 admission at Suffern otb and get track prices there FYI.

[Canarsie]

I'm not 100% sure if Old Bridge wants to host OTW at this time.
But it's about 15 minutes from Woodbridge and
that sports-bar OTW is nearly always packed.
So there's interest in the Central NJ area for sure.

Convenience is the name of the game. :ThmbUp:

That said I think there should be OTW's on the northern NJ border
where New Yorkers can travel in and play without the ridiculous OTB surcharge.
Also a few on the western border (including Cherry Hill) would take advantage of people unwilling to travel out of state on a regular basis.


I have given up going to Favorites you can't get a seat, it's insane. I have no idea why Old Bridge would want one they have tons of room for it. A location off Rt. 9 would be a slightly longer drive for the Staten Island gambler but my hunch is that they would make it much larger.

Sayreville would be another good spot they are business friendly. Of course putting one or more in Monmouth would be the best bet.

[Robert Goren]

One of sad facts of horse racing is that most people would rather have an adult bookstore open in their neighborhood than an OTW.

[The_Knight_Sky]

You can pay a $5 admission at Suffern otb and get track prices there FYI.



That's something to keep in mind. I've heard it's "filthy" though. :ThmbDown:

A few Meadowlands patrons on NFL shut-out days, go to the closer Pearl River OTB (surcharge)




I have given up going to Favorites you can't get a seat, it's insane.




As Yogi Berra used to say...

"It's so crowded, no one goes there anymore".

And he's right. The parking lot is always packed if you don't get there at least 30 minutes before the first race of the day on weekends.

As a result, Yogi and I go elsewhere.

[DSB]

I've been reading this thread for some time and maybe some things need clarification.

First, the OTW sites can't just go anywhere a racetrack wants to put them. If memory serves me correctly, each track was given a territory bounded by county lines, and was given the right to place one in each county up to the maximum each track was allotted.

Woodbridge is in Middlesex County. So anyone who thinks places like Old Bridge or Sayreville would be a good place to put one - it is pre-empted by law because the NJSEA opted to put one in Woodbridge already. I think the NJSEA has the right to place others in counties such as Essex, Bergen, etc. You would have to look up the particulars.

Freehold Raceway was given Ocean, Mercer, Camden, and maybe one other... I'm not sure. But the main one - the OTW which has already been approved by Cherry Hill - has not gotten off the ground. The reason is that Parx, which is a 50 /50 partner with Penn Gaming on the Freehold deal, will not permit a potentially major competitor to its Pa. track and Philly OTB's, and is fighting Penn Gaming to prevent it from being built. There is an ongoing lawsuit between Parx and Penn to resolve the matter.

If ever there has been a good reason for the state to force the divestiture of racing assets, this is it. What has happened in the case of Freehold is that two big out-of-state companies - with detrimental interests to the good of racing in NJ - have hampered the progress of the nation's oldest parimutuel harness track.

Everything at Freehold has been slashed - including racing days. If Penn Gaming and Parx - known as Pennwood - had their way, there would be no live racing at all, just simulcasting at the plant and its OTW sites.

[Steve 'StatMan']

P T Barnum once said "There is a sucker born every minute." This will put his theory to the test.



One of sad facts of horse racing is that most people would rather have an adult bookstore open in their neighborhood than an OTW.

There might be a corellaion! :D

[The_Knight_Sky]

Betfair seeking to purchase Monmouth Park.

Betfair wants to raise its stake in the New Jersey racing industry, said Stephen Burn, the chief executive officer for the TVG horse racing television network, a Betfair subsidiary.

The company broadened its U.S. presence in 2009 when it bought TVG for $50 million.

Betfair has successfully lobbied to bring exchange wagering to New Jersey. The new eBay form of gambling, where bettors with opposing opinions are paired at fixed odds, was signed into law by Christie on Jan. 31, though the program is on hold until the betting rules are reviewed by the state Attorney General's Office.

http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20110223/NJNEWS10/102230364/Bidders-jockeying-to-claim-Monmouth-Park

[Vinman]

Who gets to run exchange wagering if private investors are buying the tracks?

I wonder if Dave Weaver being dropped by TVG has anything to do with the first question.

I don't think Gural is buying (hope I'm dead wrong) is buying the Meadowlands but if I'm wrong wonder if TVG has a deal to broadcast Tioga. That also goes to question one.

Old Bridge would a great location for an ADW right on the Monmouth/Middlesex border. I know a perfect location if the BJ's warehouse ever decides not to renew their lease. The law banning ADW's in Monmouth also needs to be repealed.

Where/when was it announced that Dave Weaver is leaving TVG?

This would seem rather odd, especially after Todd & Simon actually made an audio clip right on the air last weekend of the Phil Collins song they always use to razz Dave about betting a certain Quarterhorse trainer.....Zamudio (sp?)

Just a week or two ago Simon snuck up on Dave and gave him a pie in the face as Dave was doing a live trackside interview at Los Alamitos. Was that all part of the pink slip ritual? I just took a look at the TVG on air talent page on their website. His mug is still there. Google search of "Dave Weaver leaving TVG" articles turned up nada. What gives?


Vinman

[Mike_412]

Maybe the poster meant Dave Brower from the Meadowlands? He used to do segments during Drive Time with Gary Seibel, but was dropped at the beginning of the year I believe.

I do find it interesting that Betfair wants to bid on Monmouth Park. Do they really want it or is it to help ensure they receive the betting exchange contract? Any opinions?

[Vinman]

Maybe the poster meant Dave Brower from the Meadowlands? He used to do segments during Drive Time with Gary Seibel, but was dropped at the beginning of the year I believe.

I do find it interesting that Betfair wants to bid on Monmouth Park. Do they really want it or is it to help ensure they receive the betting exchange contract? Any opinions?


With exchange wagering recently legalized in NJ by Christie, it would seem logical that Betfair would want to establish themselves in a NJ facilty of the size and prominence of Monmouth Park that they would be able to control and more importantly, use as a "fan education" base for their exchange wagering product.

I wouldn't mind trying exchange wagering myself except that I know next to nothing about it. If Monmouth is indeed sold or leased I hope Betfair gets the nod. They seem to be making piles of money and most importantly, seem to know what they're doing. They could hold exchange wagering "classes" on track or even at nearby Brookdale Community College. Brian Williams of NBC Nightly news once took classes at Brookdale back in the era when he was a Bus Boy at the Perkins Pancake House in Middletown. You can look it up on Wikipedia : )

Vinman

[MaTH716]

With exchange wagering recently legalized in NJ by Christie, it would seem logical that Betfair would want to establish themselves in a NJ facilty of the size and prominence of Monmouth Park that they would be able to control and more importantly, use as a "fan education" base for their exchange wagering product.

I wouldn't mind trying exchange wagering myself except that I know next to nothing about it. If Monmouth is indeed sold or leased I hope Betfair gets the nod. They seem to be making piles of money and most importantly, seem to know what they're doing. They could hold exchange wagering "classes" on track or even at nearby Brookdale Community College. Brian Williams of NBC Nightly news once took classes at Brookdale back in the era when he was a Bus Boy at the Perkins Pancake House in Middletown. You can look it up on Wikipedia : )

Vinman

If anything is done it has to be done at the track. Realistically it's tough enough to get people to the track, let alone to go to a class at an off base site.

I personally believe that the basic educating of fans is one of the biggest obstacles the sport faces. Let's face it, it's really the only form of gambling that you have to study for to have a realistic shot of being successful. The Night School program seems to be a step in the right direction. But tracks and even networks should really try to focus on having programs to help inform/teach potential customers.

Monmouth could offer some sort of handicapping/horse racing 101 series for 45 minutes starting at noon on weekends. I think it could really be beneficial there, because it's a different type of crowd there as opposed to say the Saratoga crowd. Really, what could it cost them? And you would think that they could eventually reap some sort of dividends from it.

[onefast99]

If anything is done it has to be done at the track. Realistically it's tough enough to get people to the track, let alone to go to a class at an off base site.

I personally believe that the basic educating of fans is one of the biggest obstacles the sport faces. Let's face it, it's really the only form of gambling that you have to study for to have a realistic shot of being successful. The Night School program seems to be a step in the right direction. But tracks and even networks should really try to focus on having programs to help inform/teach potential customers.

Monmouth could offer some sort of handicapping/horse racing 101 series for 45 minutes starting at noon on weekends. I think it could really be beneficial there, because it's a different type of crowd there as opposed to say the Saratoga crowd. Really, what could it cost them? And you would think that they could eventually reap some sort of dividends from it.
How is the crowd at MP different than the one at Saratoga?

[MaTH716]

How is the crowd at MP different than the one at Saratoga?

Personally, I think Monmouth is a much more novice family oriented crowd.
The Saratoga meet is like an event you plan a vacation around. Where the Monmouth meet is something to do for a day or two while you are on vacation at the Jersey shore.
It's just two different mindset's and atmospheres.

[onefast99]

Personally, I think Monmouth is a much more novice family oriented crowd.
The Saratoga meet is like an event you plan a vacation around. Where the Monmouth meet is something to do for a day or two while you are on vacation at the Jersey shore.
It's just two different mindset's and atmospheres.
Ok.

[MaTH716]

Ok.

You agree, disagree or just not sure because you haven't been to both tracks?

[onefast99]

You agree, disagree or just not sure because you haven't been to both tracks?
I'm at MP almost everyday(Fri thru Sunday)I go to the Spa 5x a year, other than the best food at any track in the USA all the people seem the same. MP offers a lot of weekend events like the bbq festival and the wine tasting festival as well as a local seafood festival. Saratoga doesn't need to do that they draw a very good crowd. I wouldn't say MP's bettors are novices by any stretch as evidenced by the track handle.

[affirmedny]

Maybe the poster meant Dave Brower from the Meadowlands? He used to do segments during Drive Time with Gary Seibel, but was dropped at the beginning of the year I believe.

I do find it interesting that Betfair wants to bid on Monmouth Park. Do they really want it or is it to help ensure they receive the betting exchange contract? Any opinions?

Dave Weaver is on the air tonight

[ronsmac]

I like the premise of exchange wagering with the low rate of commission. The only thing i worry about is more stiff jobs. Insiders laying horses to lose is a little scary.

[Valuist]

One of sad facts of horse racing is that most people would rather have an adult bookstore open in their neighborhood than an OTW.

Combine the two.....sounds like something Stronarch and Magna would do.

[Vinman]

Dave Weaver is on the air tonight

I just put TVG on. To take the "Phil Collins/SuSuSudio" reference a step futher, you might even say that Dave Weaver is "In the Air Tonight".....LOL!

I know....you meant to evoke that : )

Vinman

[ronsmac]

When the Aqueduct casino finally gets rolling it should spell the end of NJ racing or at least render it worse than before. It seems like an awful investment unless you know you're going to get slots or much bigger subsidies from the state in the future.

[Canarsie]

Where/when was it announced that Dave Weaver is leaving TVG?

Vinman


My bad I meant Dave Brower sorry. :bang:

[The_Knight_Sky]

Monmouth Park will be put up for lease by state,
not sold as originally proposed :faint: (http://www.nj.com/horse-racing/index.ssf/2011/02/monmouth_park_will_be_put_up_for_lease_by_state_no t_sold_as_originally_proposed.html) by Tom Luicci

The New Jersey Sports & Exposition Authority will issue a request for proposals for the lease of Monmouth Park next week. The plan calls for a private operator to take control of the track in time for its summer thoroughbred meeting, possibly starting in late May or early June.

The deal will also include control of the NJSEA’s highly successful off-track wagering facility in Woodbridge, the transfer of up to four of its OTW licenses and 50 percent of the state’s take from phone-account and online wagering, according to two people familiar with the terms of the lease.

Both people requested anonymity because they are not authorized to publicly discuss the deal. A spokesman for Christie would not disclose what the lease would include.

“We simply want to ensure the continuance and success of live racing at Monmouth Park,” said Michael Drewniak, Christie’s spokesman.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

would locations for OTW in Morristown or in the Somerville area be allowed or even make sense in your opinion?

I know Green Brook was talked about (rt. 22) and shot down quickly

[The_Knight_Sky]

I wouldn't mind Morristown or Somerville.
They're both towns far away from the I-95 corridor.
That's good because it wouldn't detract from the existing OTW clientele.

As for Luicci's article.
The sudden change from "For Sale" to "For Lease" is interesting.
Sounds like someone is hedging their bets for when slots eventually do
come at the racetrack(s).

Guess who that may be.

[The_Knight_Sky]

Monmouth Park will be put up for lease by state,
not sold as originally proposed :faint: (http://www.nj.com/horse-racing/index.ssf/2011/02/monmouth_park_will_be_put_up_for_lease_by_state_no t_sold_as_originally_proposed.html) by Tom Luicci



“We were successful in the Meadowlands, and we can do the same for Monmouth Park to the benefit of New Jersey taxpayers,” Christie said in a statement. “I want to see a vibrant but self-sustaining horse racing industry in New Jersey, but that can be accomplished without tens of millions of dollars in taxpayer subsidies every year.”

Despite a rousing Elite meet last summer, in which Monmouth Park raced 50 days for $50 million in purses, the Oceanport track lost approximately $4 million, according to the two people familiar with the lease proposal. The Woodbridge OTW offset those losses by netting $7 million, they said.


__________________________________________________ ________

The above quote that our friend Robert Goren should
cut out and paste on his fridge:

The math for Robert:
-4 million +7 million = + $3 million for the Monmouth Elite Summer Meet.

Factor in additional revenues from the state-wide phone wagering network,
and Meadowlands simulcasting and it doesn't look like last year went all for naught. And now the state does not want to relinquish its hold. ;)

[onefast99]

Greenbrook was shot down due to the building(former Saturn dealership) being very close to a public school amongst several other things. Now there is talk that revenue sharing with the towns could be a possibility and based on the economy that may become a huge selling tool! Whoever ends up with MP will get their OTW's up very quickly as that is a huge revenue stream. Too bad all those NJSEA high salaried brass didn't pay much attention to the OTW's or NJ horse racing wouldn't be in a race to save itself mode.

[onefast99]

“We were successful in the Meadowlands, and we can do the same for Monmouth Park to the benefit of New Jersey taxpayers,” Christie said in a statement. “I want to see a vibrant but self-sustaining horse racing industry in New Jersey, but that can be accomplished without tens of millions of dollars in taxpayer subsidies every year.”

Despite a rousing Elite meet last summer, in which Monmouth Park raced 50 days for $50 million in purses, the Oceanport track lost approximately $4 million, according to the two people familiar with the lease proposal. The Woodbridge OTW offset those losses by netting $7 million, they said.


__________________________________________________ ________

The above quote that our friend Robert Goren should
cut out and paste on his fridge:

The math for Robert:
-4 million +7 million = + $3 million for the Monmouth Elite Summer Meet.

Factor in additional revenues from the state-wide phone wagering network,
and Meadowlands simulcasting and it doesn't look like last year went all for naught. And now the state does not want to relinquish its hold. ;)
He will argue that those monies should go somewhere else and not towards the horse racing industry as several others do here from time to time. The OTW's are a huge revenue stream. They need to be built.

[ronsmac]

I hope they get this resolved soon, and run a meet similar to last yr. I thought it was the best wagering opportunities in 2010. I hope they don't try to go back to their old format.

[Robert Goren]

He will argue that those monies should go somewhere else and not towards the horse racing industry as several others do here from time to time. The OTW's are a huge revenue stream. They need to be built. Where? Forcing them down the throats of communities will not make horse racing any friends. The success of OTWs or OTBs has not been a given in all places where they have been tried. They failed across the river north. I am not sure they won't have the same problems in NJ as they had NYC. I guess time will tell.
I have always said that self sufficient race tracks is the only hope for the long term prospects for this sport. It is now up to horsemen in NJ to do what is necessary to keep the track open . I cautiously optimistic that they will do the right thing.

[thespaah]

On the OTW front...
NJ is perhaps the strangest state in the Union...I am amazed that anything ever gets done there.
In NJ there are some 550 municipalities all with their own governments which act like little fiefdoms. For the most part these towns act as though they are islands or small countries.
Anyway, for the most part each town's population acts as though they like to have shopping ,dining and entertainment nearby ,but just not in THEIR town.
Not only that event though New Jerseyites love to gamble, they look upon gambling like it were a plague. So it comes as no surprise that OTW's haven't been built anywhere save the three that exist now.
Back to the little fiefdoms. Newsflash, they are all for sale. That is an OTW can go just about anywhere for the right amount of "palm grease"..Perhaps it is time for the license holders to "play ball". I can say with little doubt that if an OTW licensee offered the right "price" these picky parochial bedroom community NIMBY's would welcome an OTW with open arms.

[Kelso]

The math for Robert:
-4 million +7 million = + $3 million for the Monmouth Elite Summer Meet.

Factor in additional revenues from the state-wide phone wagering network,and Meadowlands simulcasting

Are you attributing ALL of the $7 million profit ... as well as the unsourced "additional revenues" ... to betting on MTH's 2010 meet?

If so, on what do your base your assertions?

If not, I think you have simply pointed out that New Jersey's taxpayers own some valuable gambling properties whose profits should be reserved ENTIRELY for their benefit.

[The_Knight_Sky]

Are you attributing ALL of the $7 million profit ... as well as the unsourced "additional revenues" ... to betting on MTH's 2010 meet?

If so, on what do your base your assertions?




No. Let's try that again...
The state (through their quasi-state agency NJSEA) is saying in the Luicci article:

The $50 million Monmouth meet lost $4 million after all was said and done.
But if they include the wagering through NJSEA's Woodbridge OTW which gained $7 million for them, there is a profit of $3 million!

There is no mention of the enormous amount of wagering done at NJSEA's Meadowlands racetrack or through the NJAW network. That had to help the bottom line of course. So instead of coming out ahead by merely $3 million last year on Monmouth, I'd assume the Elite Summer Meet made it safely into the black. This administration doesn't want to toot their horn in the press about the profits since they're clearly siding with the casino factions, so not everything will be laid out in black and white to the public.

The fact that the "for sale" offer is now off the table, probably means
that someone came to their senses and sees a potential gold mine down the road. I've always felt the Elite Summer Meet was a very good one.
Now we're getting proof how good.
It has led people to question... Why sell a good thing at this point. :confused:

[Robert Goren]

That is an OTW can go just about anywhere for the right amount of "palm grease"..Perhaps it is time for the license holders to "play ball". I can say with little doubt that if an OTW licensee offered the right "price" these picky parochial bedroom community NIMBY's would welcome an OTW with open arms.You seem to think the "palm grease" is one time thing. As NYCOTB proved, it goes on as long as the OTB is open and it the amount needed to applied goes up every year. Such is the nature of things gotten by applying "palm grease". Race tracks need to be able stand by themselves. Any money gotten from other sources should be considered gravy not the meat. Gravy seems to get used up pretty fast when too many people try soaking their bread in it. The meat in horse racing is the live on track betting. No outside forces get a cut of it. Money from OTWs and ADWs get split up in too many ever changing ways to be counted on. The live on track operation needs to be making money or very close to it in order to survive long term. One year patches are not going to be there every year. The sad thing is that NJ racing would be good shape for the coming years if they had spent their one time gift more wisely last year.

[onefast99]

You seem to think the "palm grease" is one time thing. As NYCOTB proved, it goes on as long as the OTB is open and it the amount needed to applied goes up every year. Such is the nature of things gotten by applying "palm grease". Race tracks need to be able stand by themselves. Any money gotten from other sources should be considered gravy not the meat. Gravy seems to get used up pretty fast when too many people try soaking their bread in it. The meat in horse racing is the live on track betting. No outside forces get a cut of it. Money from OTWs and ADWs get split up in too many ever changing ways to be counted on. The live on track operation needs to be making money or very close to it in order to survive long term. One year patches are not going to be there every year. The sad thing is that NJ racing would be good shape for the coming years if they had spent their one time gift more wisely last year.
There are a limited amount of OTW's in NJ right now, people who are in the Cherry Hill NJ area can go to Parx to wager as Vineland is 60 miles away that is a lot of gambling dollars leaving the state. There are no OTW's in the northwest part of the state. Favorites in Woodbridge is a very nice facility it gets crowded easily. Greenbrook NJ was a site the NJSEA was after but it was turned down by the town due too many factors, one of them being the facility was too close to the middle school. These facilities are needed and are a part of the revenue generating stream for the horse racing industry in our state to be successful and weather any economic downturns the industry may face. Unfortuneately the fatcats at the NJSEA were too busy building projects with the horse racing industries monies that were not horse related.

[The_Knight_Sky]

Unfortuneately the fatcats at the NJSEA were too busy building projects
with the horse racing industries monies that were not horse related.



That is indeed unfortunate because some of these fine NJSEA employees
may soon be out of a job. The problem wasn't the so called "fatcats"
but the business philosophy of taking money away from horse racing and putting it into other failed projects around the state for three decades.

And to top it off, telling the public that the horse racing is a "money loser" when that's clearly that's not the case. Robert and many other people like him have been misled when they shouldn't have been. Horse Racing (both standardbred and thorougbreds) have a future in NJ with the right people running it.

[Canarsie]

That is indeed unfortunate because some of these fine NJSEA employees
may soon be out of a job. The problem wasn't the so called "fatcats"
but the business philosophy of taking money away from horse racing and putting it into other failed projects around the state for three decades.

And to top it off, telling the public that the horse racing is a "money loser" when that's clearly that's not the case. Robert and many other people like him have been misled when they shouldn't have been. Horse Racing (both standardbred and thorougbreds) have a future in NJ with the right people running it.

I know a lady who has worked there forever and she is now working nights in order to save her job. Some of the people in the simulcast room have become family over the years. Once my friend banged his head pretty bad (too much drink) and he went there without me. The first question he was asked was "where's Mark" and the second was "what happened to your head" :lol:

We always tipped them and when Derby day was coming near they would tell us when we could reserve a seat or if it was sold out they would say come back in an hour and I'll see what I can do. These are the people I really feel sorry for.

[Robert Goren]

If NJ tracks were making so much money, why are they trying so hard to get slots? Even if I were to accept your math, Monmouth Park still lost the 30 million they got from the casinos. Put the shoe on the other foot for a while. What if Monmouth Park had been forced to give the casinos 30 million? Think about that for a while. It is not the casinos wanting to get in to horse racing, but horse racing wanting to get into the casino business. That should tell you all you want to know. NJ horse racing can survive on its own, but not without major concessions from the horsemen. We will see how badly they want it when it hits their pocket books.

[Robert Goren]

That is indeed unfortunate because some of these fine NJSEA employees
may soon be out of a job. The problem wasn't the so called "fatcats"
but the business philosophy of taking money away from horse racing and putting it into other failed projects around the state for three decades.

And to top it off, telling the public that the horse racing is a "money loser" when that's clearly that's not the case. Robert and many other people like him have been misled when they shouldn't have been. Horse Racing (both standardbred and thorougbreds) have a future in NJ with the right people running it.If it was still making money, they would want to continue to milk it instead of closing it down.

[point given]

Developers want casino at the Meadowlands

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/press/new_jersey/developers-want-casino-at-meadowlands-christie-adviser-to-speak-at/article_b4212448-43a2-11e0-a2f7-001cc4c002e0.html

Despite staunch opposition from Gov. Chris Christie and state legislators, some racing advocates and northern New Jersey developers are reopening the question of putting slots at the Meadowlands sports complex.

Jim Kirkos, chief executive officer of the Meadowlands Regional Chamber of Commerce, announced on Monday that the group has a newly drafted plan to build a casino at the state-run stadium and racing complex in East Rutherford, Bergen County.

[thespaah]

You seem to think the "palm grease" is one time thing. As NYCOTB proved, it goes on as long as the OTB is open and it the amount needed to applied goes up every year. Such is the nature of things gotten by applying "palm grease". Race tracks need to be able stand by themselves. Any money gotten from other sources should be considered gravy not the meat. Gravy seems to get used up pretty fast when too many people try soaking their bread in it. The meat in horse racing is the live on track betting. No outside forces get a cut of it. Money from OTWs and ADWs get split up in too many ever changing ways to be counted on. The live on track operation needs to be making money or very close to it in order to survive long term. One year patches are not going to be there every year. The sad thing is that NJ racing would be good shape for the coming years if they had spent their one time gift more wisely last year.
Why did you waste your time replying to my post when you did not address my post at all?
If you have a separate idea, then just go with it.
I neither stated nor implied the greasing of palms was a one time thing .In fact that was not the thrust of my post in the first place...
I will explain this one more time. Please read what I write and receive it literally....
Now, look back at my original post explaining the issue as to why there are not more OTW facilities in NJ. Save for my theory as to palm greasing, the rest is all factual.
I do not know where you come from. I am from NJ . I spent the first 30 years of my life there and I am well versed in how things work.
Please do not post implications that I do not know what I am talking about.
That just pisses me off.

[thespaah]

Developers want casino at the Meadowlands

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/press/new_jersey/developers-want-casino-at-meadowlands-christie-adviser-to-speak-at/article_b4212448-43a2-11e0-a2f7-001cc4c002e0.html

Despite staunch opposition from Gov. Chris Christie and state legislators, some racing advocates and northern New Jersey developers are reopening the question of putting slots at the Meadowlands sports complex.

Jim Kirkos, chief executive officer of the Meadowlands Regional Chamber of Commerce, announced on Monday that the group has a newly drafted plan to build a casino at the state-run stadium and racing complex in East Rutherford, Bergen County.
I think the opposition to a casino at the Meadowlands will wane.
Clearly the existence of a full casino( just slots won't cut it) so close to NYC and right in the heart of the NY Metro area would be a license to print money.
It would be Christmas every day.

[thespaah]

I wouldn't mind Morristown or Somerville.
They're both towns far away from the I-95 corridor.
That's good because it wouldn't detract from the existing OTW clientele.

As for Luicci's article.
The sudden change from "For Sale" to "For Lease" is interesting.
Sounds like someone is hedging their bets for when slots eventually do
come at the racetrack(s).

Guess who that may be.There is a location that I thought of earlier today. Closter Plaza. This once was a shopping hub for northern Bergen County. Today, most of the retail space is empty, the parking lot pavement is decrepit. The K-Mart there is circling the bowl.
This would be an ideal place for an OTW....BUT...BIG BUT.....I would be willing to bet the national debt of a small country that such a proposal would draw howls of protest from area residents and a big fat NO from local politicians. No, they'd rather see the plaza be reclaimed by nature before they'd allow "that gambling house" over there.

[Vinman]

There is a location that I thought of earlier today. Closter Plaza. This once was a shopping hub for northern Bergen County. Today, most of the retail space is empty, the parking lot pavement is decrepit. The K-Mart there is circling the bowl.
This would be an ideal place for an OTW....BUT...BIG BUT.....I would be willing to bet the national debt of a small country that such a proposal would draw howls of protest from area residents and a big fat NO from local politicians. No, they'd rather see the plaza be reclaimed by nature before they'd allow "that gambling house" over there.

Having spent 8 years of my youth living just a few miles up the road in Norwood, going back to the time when the slot car place opened around the corner from Closter Theater in March of '66, I would vouch for Closter Plaza as a great candidate for an OTW location for all the reasons you mentioned. It all boils down to the "Home Rule....not in my backyard" thing in NJ you pointed out earlier. This is something that Christie NEEDS to fix in exchange for demanding that NJ racing subsidize itself. I'm not sure if any of the recent bills he signed make the OTW approval process any easier. But it has to change. These towns can't just continue to say no because they feel like it. I heard Bridgewater and Mahwah also turned thumbs down on OTW's.

If things do change, I have the "Mother of All OTW sites" in the state....if not the entire NY/NJ Metro area.....the expansive, already paved grounds surrounding the Sheraton Mahwah, one of the tallest, most distinguished looking buildings around. From what I've heard, the original plans to build a shopping center around the Sheraton were long ago abandoned, leaving what is now an incredibly massive, unused parking lot, perfect for building an OTW of any size they please. What's even better than the size of the property is the location. It's at the crossroads of Rt. 17 and Interstate 287. Talk about traffic flow!

If it were ever built, an OTW facility at this location would take over the title of busiest OTW in the US from Favorites in Woodbridge, currently handling around $90,000,000 a year in bets.


Vinman (Fortunate enough to live 5 minutes from Favorites : )

[wonatthewire1]

would locations for OTW in Morristown or in the Somerville area be allowed or even make sense in your opinion?

I know Green Brook was talked about (rt. 22) and shot down quickly

Dover (Morris County) was in the mix a few years ago.

There is an Acme that moved out of Rockaway (Townsquare Mall area) that is a good size and about 2 minutes off of Route 80 that would be a decent location with plenty of parking.

[wonatthewire1]

I wouldn't mind Morristown or Somerville.
They're both towns far away from the I-95 corridor.
That's good because it wouldn't detract from the existing OTW clientele.

As for Luicci's article.
The sudden change from "For Sale" to "For Lease" is interesting.
Sounds like someone is hedging their bets for when slots eventually do
come at the racetrack(s).

Guess who that may be.

Would probably have to build something in Somerville rather than an existing structure.

Good location with all the highways but your probably out in Branchburg for enough land to build something.

Morristown, it will never work there. Better bet would be Dover/Rockaway off of Route 80

[wonatthewire1]

Where? Forcing them down the throats of communities will not make horse racing any friends. The success of OTWs or OTBs has not been a given in all places where they have been tried. They failed across the river north. I am not sure they won't have the same problems in NJ as they had NYC. I guess time will tell.
I have always said that self sufficient race tracks is the only hope for the long term prospects for this sport. It is now up to horsemen in NJ to do what is necessary to keep the track open . I cautiously optimistic that they will do the right thing.


Overbuilding is usually the problem

Space 'em enough apart and there shouldn't be too much of a problem.

If you have some time...take a look at the Benetton model from the 1980's when every corner had one of their stores...

[thespaah]

Having spent 8 years of my youth living just a few miles up the road in Norwood, going back to the time when the slot car place opened around the corner from Closter Theater in March of '66, I would vouch for Closter Plaza as a great candidate for an OTW location for all the reasons you mentioned. It all boils down to the "Home Rule....not in my backyard" thing in NJ you pointed out earlier. This is something that Christie NEEDS to fix in exchange for demanding that NJ racing subsidize itself. I'm not sure if any of the recent bills he signed make the OTW approval process any easier. But it has to change. These towns can't just continue to say no because they feel like it. I heard Bridgewater and Mahwah also turned thumbs down on OTW's.

If things do change, I have the "Mother of All OTW sites" in the state....if not the entire NY/NJ Metro area.....the expansive, already paved grounds surrounding the Sheraton Mahwah, one of the tallest, most distinguished looking buildings around. From what I've heard, the original plans to build a shopping center around the Sheraton were long ago abandoned, leaving what is now an incredibly massive, unused parking lot, perfect for building an OTW of any size they please. What's even better than the size of the property is the location. It's at the crossroads of Rt. 17 and Interstate 287. Talk about traffic flow!

If it were ever built, an OTW facility at this location would take over the title of busiest OTW in the US from Favorites in Woodbridge, currently handling around $90,000,000 a year in bets.


Vinman (Fortunate enough to live 5 minutes from Favorites : )
I grew up in Northvale. I worked at that K-Mart from '79 thru '81. I ate more Rudy's pizza than I care to admit.
Yep I remember the slot car place and of course Tazz Lanes.
Home rule makes NJ such a non-progressive state.
It works in one respect as it helps to keep towns stable and limits sprawl type development. However home rule also promotes extreme parochialism and the NIMBY factor.
A balance has to be set either through mutual cooperation between towns or legislation.
Sadly the latter may have to be done to set things in motion.
At this point with the presence of the whit elephant properties at the Junction of RTES NJ 17, I-287 and the NYS Thruway, the Twp of Mahwah may want to rethink their original decision. I think it is really dumb for then to reject an OTW.

[Kelso]

No. Let's try that again...
The state (through their quasi-state agency NJSEA) is saying in the Luicci article:

The $50 million Monmouth meet lost $4 million after all was said and done.

But if they include the wagering through NJSEA's Woodbridge OTW which gained $7 million for them, there is a profit of $3 million!

<snip>

Why sell a good thing at this point. :confused:


Yes, there was a profit of $7 million at W'bridge OTW. Some of the handle that generated the profit was directed at MTH ... but the track's take from that handle was already accounted for in MTH's loss.

The meet lost $4 million. End of story. True, MTH would have lost even more were it not for the folks who bet at Woodbridge and had no other ADW/Simo alternatives. But the same can be said for handle derived from any other off-track betting venue.

The OTW is profitable; as such operations, properly run, should be. They are, therefor, VERY valuable STATE assets.

That's why 100% of those profits (net of future capital requirements) from all of the OTW licenses ... whether those licenses are sold, leased or used by NJSEA ... should be returned to the state treasury and, thereby, to all of the state's taxpayers.

The Monmouth meet was a financial bust for everyone but the horsemen.

[Kelso]

Unfortuneately the fatcats at the NJSEA were too busy building projects with the horse racing industries monies that were not horse related.Aside from the heavily-subsidized purse accounts, NJSEA holds NO "horse racing industries monies." It consumes, therefor, a like amount of same.

All other funds in NJSEA accounts, however obtained and with relatively minor exceptions, belong to NJSEA; which is to say the "monies" belong to ALL of the people of New Jersey and NOT to any "horse racing industries."

[onefast99]

Aside from the heavily-subsidized purse accounts, NJSEA holds NO "horse racing industries monies." It consumes, therefor, a like amount of same.

All other funds in NJSEA accounts, however obtained and with relatively minor exceptions, belong to NJSEA; which is to say the "monies" belong to ALL of the people of New Jersey and NOT to any "horse racing industries."
Unused off-track-betting licenses may eventually be available for others

Unused off-track-betting licenses may eventually be available for others (http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/press/casinos_tourism/unused-off-track-betting-licenses-may-eventually-be-available-for/www.pressofAtlanticCity.com/news/press/casinos_tourism/unused-off-track-betting-licenses-may-eventually-be-available-for/article_6d24fb16-3b08-11e0-bd37-001cc4c03286.html) By JULIET FLETCHER Statehouse Bureau pressofAtlanticCity.com | 0 comments (http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/press/casinos_tourism/unused-off-track-betting-licenses-may-eventually-be-available-for/article_6d24fb16-3b08-11e0-bd37-001cc4c03286.html#user-comment-area)
Off-track-wagering parlor licenses previously held by state racetrack operators or private companies could be made available to venues across New Jersey under a major overhaul approved Thursday by the state Assembly and Senate.

The bill, sponsored by Assemblyman John Burzichelli, calls for concrete progress on implementing 11 unused off-track wagering licenses that have sat idle for 10 years, including those currently held by the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority, which runs two state racetracks. If no progress is made by January 2012, the bills, which supporters say are likely to become law, would allow the licenses to be transferred to other bidders.

if(typeof oTNCMS_Ad.setRelative == 'function'){ oTNCMS_Ad.setRelative(); }oTNCMS_Ad.show();However, lawmakers have altered an original provision to allow a wide range of venues to bid for them immediately. As Gov. Chris Christie’s administration works to secure an operator for the Meadowlands Racetrack, and an operator or buyer for Monmouth Park, administration lawyers advised keeping the NJSEA’s licenses as possible negotiating chips in those deals.


The bill was originally passed in both houses before the end of 2010, but was conditionally vetoed by Gov. Chris Christie on Feb. 3.

“The governor’s counsel, his lawyers, asked that we specify that those negotiations count as ‘real progress,’ as far as the licenses,” Burzichelli said Thursday. “We felt that was fair.”

That means some or all of the four NJSEA licenses could be included as incentives for possible new operators or buyers.

Other unused licenses are held by racing companies, including one held jointly by Greenwood Racing and Penn National, which is the subject of a dispute between the two organizations. Greenwood owns the Atlantic City Race Course.

The Assembly and Senate agreed with the governor’s conditional veto recommendations, which also removed a requirement for operators to pay 1 percent of their profits to the host municipality for an off-track betting center.

“We wanted to give the towns something as far as taking on these facilities,” Burzichelli said of the original plan.

But Christie’s staff said in the written veto: “Existing law already required facility operators to pay property taxes and, as such, this new fee would be an additional form of taxation that may discourage the development of new locations.”

The administration pledged to work out an alternative deal to help compensate towns.

“That’s a work in progress,” Burzichelli said.

The Assembly and Senate approved the updated versions unanimously Thursday.

Since Christie’s suggested changes were met, sponsors said they believed the bill would be signed.

As the new facilities open, revenue from the winning bids would be dedicated to the New Jersey Thoroughbred Horsemen’s Association and Standardbred Breeders’ and Owners’ Association of New Jersey.

[The_Knight_Sky]

There is a location that I thought of earlier today. Closter Plaza.



That's a very nice area. Just off Closter Dock Road and 1-9 / Palisades Parkway. Even Kramer can drive in from NYC.

I know that place from long ago when I had a part-time job in Norwood.
The best places to set up OTW's is along the NY state line and on the Pennsylvania border of North Jersey.

That said, Wayne (home of Preakness the horse) Dover/Boontoon
are all far away from the Meadowlands racetrack and would not "steal"
business but augment it.

http://i55.tinypic.com/50qv12.gif
map courtesy: TKS blog (http://theknightskyracing.blogspot.com/2010/09/simulcasting-usa-it-all-started-here-25.html)

[Robert Goren]

The problem remains OTWs is that very few people want to live within 50 miles of one. That the problem that needs to be addressed, not trying to figure out a way to force it down their throats like is be suggested over and over again here. It needs to sold a something positive for the area not just for horse racing. I really have to wonder why that isn't being done. Could be that supporters of OTWs don't believe that themselves? Just wondering.

[onefast99]

The problem remains OTWs is that very few people want to live within 50 miles of one. That the problem that needs to be addressed, not trying to figure out a way to force it down their throats like is be suggested over and over again here. It needs to sold a something positive for the area not just for horse racing. I really have to wonder why that isn't being done. Could be that supporters of OTWs don't believe that themselves? Just wondering.
It's not as simple as snapping your fingers and one gets built. Right now no one can build one unless you have a racetrack or own a casino. As you know the Meadowlands is being leased to Mr Gural(in the process of)and MP is now up for lease. The winning bidder will get 4 OTW's with MP. If the licenses aren't used and the OTW's aren't built out by January 2012 the horseman get to build them. The NJSEA dragged their feet on these OTW's thus creating a lot of problems for the horse racing industry in terms of a solid revenue stream. People in the southern part of the state will go to the casinos and place their bets at the race-books. Some venture over to Parx while in the middle of the state people will go to MP or Favorites in Woodbridge. The northern end of the state has the Meadowlands. As you can see by Knights map there is a lot of real estate in NJ that lacks a betting facility. Hopefully now that the pressure is on the OTW's will get built.

[MaTH716]

The problem remains OTWs is that very few people want to live within 50 miles of one. That the problem that needs to be addressed, not trying to figure out a way to force it down their throats like is be suggested over and over again here. It needs to sold a something positive for the area not just for horse racing. I really have to wonder why that isn't being done. Could be that supporters of OTWs don't believe that themselves? Just wondering.

I don't understand this comment. We are talking about OTW establishments, not nuclear reactors. You would think with the amount of commercial real estate (have you noticed all the vacancies in strip malls lately?) that is available, it should be easy to find good locations to place OTW throughout the state.

[Canarsie]

I don't understand this comment. We are talking about OTW establishments, not nuclear reactors. You would think with the amount of commercial real estate (have you noticed all the vacancies in strip malls lately?) that is available, it should be easy to find good locations to place OTW throughout the state.


I know the NJSEA used to look for closed supermarkets as ideal OTW's. Favorites used to be an A&P. Since they are in bankruptcy there's a good chance there will some ideal locations available. There's one a mile from my house (northern Monmouth) that would be perfect if it closed. Lots of parking, no other major stores, right off a main highway. It would be less than a mile from a school that would be the only drawback. If they were able to throw that 1% to the township my hunch is that it would be approved. The only problem is there are no OTW's allowed in Monmouth county as the law was written.

Once again Mr. Goren has stuck his foot in his mouth as there aren't any objections from Woodbridge or their residents now. Even the merchants like it since they put in stricter parking rules that were hurting their businesses initially.

[MaTH716]

I know the NJSEA used to look for closed supermarkets as ideal OTW's. Favorites used to be an A&P. Since they are in bankruptcy there's a good chance there will some ideal locations available. There's one a mile from my house (northern Monmouth) that would be perfect if it closed. Lots of parking, no other major stores, right off a main highway. It would be less than a mile from a school that would be the only drawback. If they were able to throw that 1% to the township my hunch is that it would be approved. The only problem is there are no OTW's allowed in Monmouth county as the law was written.

Once again Mr. Goren has stuck his foot in his mouth as there aren't any objections from Woodbridge or their residents now. Even the merchants like it since they put in stricter parking rules that were hurting their businesses initially.

I think the state really needs to focus on the areas that either don't currently have an OTW site or track within their vicinity. It would be foolish to "double up" in some of the areas mentioned in the thread. For instance, earlier in the thread someone mentioned about opening up a OTW in Old Bridge. While I would like that (because it's where I live), it's unnecessary because it would realistically be a 4th option for me (15 minutes either way to Freehold or Favorites and 20 minutes to Monmouth Park). They really need to focus on the areas that just don't have the accessibilty to a betting venue and possibly reap from the untapped revenue in these areas.

[Robert Goren]

You got to love the "head in the sand" attitudes of horseplayers. The non gambling public has very low opinion of habital gamblers. That goes double for horse players. Even the "once every couple of months" casino player holds horse players in low regard. Tell me, would you put horse player down as hobby on a job application or on a resume? Even the horse people consider us handicappers lowlifes. If you are a horse person, you know that is true.

[MaTH716]

You got to love the "head in the sand" attitudes of horseplayers. The non gambling public has very low opinion of habital gamblers. That goes double for horse players. Even the "once every couple of months" casino player holds horse players in low regard. Tell me, would you put horse player down as hobby on a job application or on a resume? Even the horse people consider us handicappers lowlifes. If you are a horse person, you know that is true.

While I agree, that some of the non gaming public would have an issue with the location of an OTW near their houses, don't you think 50 miles is a bit of a stretch? The way you make it sound is, as if you are putting us on the level with homeless shelters and prisons. Favorites is a very nice establishment (where I have even brought my son for lunch on occasion) in an area that I would think doesn't affect anyone in a negative way (if anything I would think that it generates more buisness for the other store owners in that area). Unfortunately due to the economy, I'm sure that there are plenty of other locations where OTW's like Favorites could thrive (and might be welcomed) while not disrupting any of the wholesome communities that you think might look upon us as scum.

I disagree and take exception with the other part of the post. I wouldn't (and don't) hesitate to tell people that I enjoy horse racing. I think it shows that certain people/players are capable of thinking and computing at a different level. Especially if you explain how you attack horizontal wagers and how you have to sometimes think outside the box to suceed on on these wagers.

Yeah, I care what the guy who sits at the roulette/blackjack table or even better a slot machine 3 times a month for hours at a time has to say about us. Those people shouldn't be throwing stones at anyone else's houses.

Finally, while I could be wrong I don't believe that horse people talk bad about the handicappers, because without us they would probably be doing something else for employment. So I wouldn't think that there was too many negative things that they could say about the life source of their beings.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

I'd love to see a couple more, nice, OTW's in the state, but I wouldn't want one in my town (a town that was mentioned, although I think only once) in this post.

I don't think it would help the local property values and I don't think it fits well with the other businesses in the area.

So, in this case, I'm with the 'not in my town' crew.

Very selfish, but also I hope, honest of me.

[Robert Goren]

When covering the Ground Zero Mosque, the news channels used an OTB and an Adult movie theater as example of the area being seedy and run down. Anything that is mentioned the same breath as an adult movie theater has an image problem. Rightly or wrongly the image that comes to mind when you mention an OTB or OTW is that of one in NYC. That is not a good image even to most horse players.
MaTH716, you must very young and very new to the game. I have been a handicapper for 40 years and I can assure you that only thing that will impress a non horse player about your abilities is when you start winning lots of money. You get respect about the time you start declaring a million dollars a year in net income on your tax returns. Until then, as my stepfather use to say "The drinks are always on you. If you lose, you have enough money to waste on the ponies, then you have enough to buy the drinks. If you win, you can buy with your winnings." It has been my experience that most horsemen have the same attitude toward gamblers as drug dealers have toward addicts.

[onefast99]

When covering the Ground Zero Mosque, the news channels used an OTB and an Adult movie theater as example of the area being seedy and run down. Anything that is mentioned the same breath as an adult movie theater has an image problem. Rightly or wrongly the image that comes to mind when you mention an OTB or OTW is that of one in NYC. That is not a good image even to most horse players.
MaTH716, you must very young and very new to the game. I have been a handicapper for 40 years and I can assure you that only thing that will impress a non horse player about your abilities is when you start winning lots of money. You get respect about the time you start declaring a million dollars a year in net income on your tax returns. Until then, as my stepfather use to say "The drinks are always on you. If you lose, you have enough money to waste on the ponies, then you have enough to buy the drinks. If you win, you can buy with your winnings." It has been my experience that most horsemen have the same attitude toward gamblers as drug dealers have toward addicts.
You need to see the pictures of Favorites in Woodbridge. The place is very nice. They have a great restaurant called Mcloones and a nice handicapping and bar area. The OTB's in NY seem to get a bad name, maybe it is because they are depicted in tv shows as being run down and full of bad people. Take the Seinfeld episode where Kramer wins big on Papanick and is followed into the subway by a guy looking to seperate him from his winnings. Right now we can't get all excited until the individual who leases MP looks to build out the 4 OTW's by January 2012.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

Exchange betting?

[MaTH716]

When covering the Ground Zero Mosque, the news channels used an OTB and an Adult movie theater as example of the area being seedy and run down. Anything that is mentioned the same breath as an adult movie theater has an image problem. Rightly or wrongly the image that comes to mind when you mention an OTB or OTW is that of one in NYC. That is not a good image even to most horse players.
MaTH716, you must very young and very new to the game. I have been a handicapper for 40 years and I can assure you that only thing that will impress a non horse player about your abilities is when you start winning lots of money. You get respect about the time you start declaring a million dollars a year in net income on your tax returns. Until then, as my stepfather use to say "The drinks are always on you. If you lose, you have enough money to waste on the ponies, then you have enough to buy the drinks. If you win, you can buy with your winnings." It has been my experience that most horsemen have the same attitude toward gamblers as drug dealers have toward addicts.

I'm not arguing about the public's perception about Horse racing and OTB's (I know and will admit that it's not very good). I'll also admit that the majority of NYOTB's that I have been in were absolute dumps and I wouldn't want one of those near my house either. That being said, Favorites is not even remotely close to one of those NYOTB's (Have you ever been to Favorites?). I have and like I said, I'm very impressed with the place. It almost reminds me of a Las Vegas race/sports book and the food was pretty good as well. I can't understand why people would be against facilities like that located in commercial areas in their communities. In this case the perception is wrong, this is not the NYCOTB that were are all use to battling in.

As far as impressing people who are non horse racing fans, I couldn't care less. I was just trying to make the point about the serious thought process that goes into betting horses. Whether you are a fan of the game or not, the process of coming up with a horse or a certain sequance should be respected. It's a lot deeper than sitting at a table and staying on 15 hoping the dealer busts with his 6 showing. Or playing your kids birthdays on the roulette table. I was just stating that I'm not embarrassed to tell anyone about my interest/love for the game.

As for your analogy about the horseman, I really don't get it. But basically if you are calling them the pushers and us the addicts I think it's made in extremely poor taste. I play the horses cause I enjoy the challange of trying to make a big hit and the thrill of the races. I also enjoy just watching races, even if I have no action on them. I root for the sport to flourish. I don't expect to get rich doing it and I don't expect to lose all my money chasing some impossible dream. I'm sure there are some of those stories, but then again I'm sure there are those horror stories for anything involving the almighty buck.

[Canarsie]

I think the state really needs to focus on the areas that either don't currently have an OTW site or track within their vicinity. It would be foolish to "double up" in some of the areas mentioned in the thread. For instance, earlier in the thread someone mentioned about opening up a OTW in Old Bridge. While I would like that (because it's where I live), it's unnecessary because it would realistically be a 4th option for me (15 minutes either way to Freehold or Favorites and 20 minutes to Monmouth Park). They really need to focus on the areas that just don't have the accessibilty to a betting venue and possibly reap from the untapped revenue in these areas.

I'm the guy who said Old Bridge and I stand by it. You can't get a seat at Favorites, NYC OTB is closed, somewhere right off exit 120 would be perfect. You mentioned Freehold and Monmouth Park my hunch is 75% minimum of the people who go there hardly go to the track. They could bet at home if that's the case. Favorites has become a social place to go sort of like Aqueduct was when I was growing up.

I just thought of another good place off Rt. 35 the old Club Bene. Lots of parking, right now it's not a rateable, Sayreville is very business friendly they would welcome it with open arms.

There wouldn't be a need for another one so close if the NJSEA could have foreseen how popular it was going to become. I bet there are plenty like me who won't go there because you can't get a seat.

[MaTH716]

I'm the guy who said Old Bridge and I stand by it. You can't get a seat at Favorites, NYC OTB is closed, somewhere right off exit 120 would be perfect. You mentioned Freehold and Monmouth Park my hunch is 75% minimum of the people who go there hardly go to the track. They could bet at home if that's the case. Favorites has become a social place to go sort of like Aqueduct was when I was growing up.

I just thought of another good place off Rt. 35 the old Club Bene. Lots of parking, right now it's not a rateable, Sayreville is very business friendly they would welcome it with open arms.

There wouldn't be a need for another one so close if the NJSEA could have foreseen how popular it was going to become. I bet there are plenty like me who won't go there because you can't get a seat.

I know when I plan to go, I try to go early to get a seat. I understand when you say it gets very crowded. But I do the same if I plan on sitting in the tele-theaters at Monmouth and if I ever make the trek to the Meadowlands. I really only go to Freehold to deposit money in my account. It's not awful there, but can't hold a candle to any of the other venues.
I guess the demand is there, but my only point was you want to build another OTW in an area that already has 3 options when there are plenty of counties that doesn't have one.

I also could think of many places to locate one, but I just don't see it in the cards in the near future.

[Brogan]

I'm the guy who said Old Bridge and I stand by it. You can't get a seat at Favorites, NYC OTB is closed, somewhere right off exit 120 would be perfect. You mentioned Freehold and Monmouth Park my hunch is 75% minimum of the people who go there hardly go to the track. They could bet at home if that's the case. Favorites has become a social place to go sort of like Aqueduct was when I was growing up.

I just thought of another good place off Rt. 35 the old Club Bene. Lots of parking, right now it's not a rateable, Sayreville is very business friendly they would welcome it with open arms.

There wouldn't be a need for another one so close if the NJSEA could have foreseen how popular it was going to become. I bet there are plenty like me who won't go there because you can't get a seat.
Both Old Bridge and Sayreville are in Middlesex County. Favorites is in Woodbridge...that's right, Middlesex County. The current law is one per county.

[Kelso]

As the new facilities open, revenue from the winning bids would be dedicated to the New Jersey Thoroughbred Horsemen’s Association and Standardbred Breeders’ and Owners’ Association of New Jersey.
Christie should impound those funds, too ... just as he appears ready to do with the latest $30 million welfare- for-horsemen subsidy.)

[onefast99]

Christie should impound those funds, too ... just as he appears ready to do with the latest $30 million welfare- for-horsemen subsidy.)
Ok, here is the bottom line, you were wrong. The new investor who takes over MP and Favorites and has 4 additional OTW licenses won't be giving the monies over to anyone except their bottom line which is the way it should have been from day one. Thanks for the try.

[Canarsie]

Both Old Bridge and Sayreville are in Middlesex County. Favorites is in Woodbridge...that's right, Middlesex County. The current law is one per county.

I just downloaded the bill and there is no mention of one OTW per county. Please show me where it says this.

[onefast99]

I just downloaded the bill and there is no mention of one OTW per county. Please show me where it says this.
It is broken up by region not by county.

[DSB]

I just downloaded the bill and there is no mention of one OTW per county. Please show me where it says this.

That's because it doesn't exist in the enabling legislation.

It is outlined in the "Off Track Wagering Participation Agreement" which was negotiated by the parties and ratified by the NJRC.

I was told by a principal to the negotiations that the territories were bounded by county lines with a provision of one OTW per county.

I have noticed that there hasn't been more than one OTW in any county, and the proposed ones don't overlap either.

Could be a coincidence, but I don't think so.

[thespaah]

I don't understand this comment. We are talking about OTW establishments, not nuclear reactors. You would think with the amount of commercial real estate (have you noticed all the vacancies in strip malls lately?) that is available, it should be easy to find good locations to place OTW throughout the state.
It's easy to understand your comment if you are not from or familiar with New Jersey.
Each of the town's populations have this notion of instead of "can do" it is "why should we?"

[thespaah]

I'd love to see a couple more, nice, OTW's in the state, but I wouldn't want one in my town (a town that was mentioned, although I think only once) in this post.

I don't think it would help the local property values and I don't think it fits well with the other businesses in the area.

So, in this case, I'm with the 'not in my town' crew.

Very selfish, but also I hope, honest of me.
Not a personal attack. However your attitude is the prevailing one for most NJ residents. They claim they are not in the NIMBY crowd and are receptive to businesses such as OTW's, but "just not in our town". Or "it does not fit the character of our town"...
This is why the OTW platform in NJ struggles the way it does. No one wants one of these anywhere close to where they reside, but they are very quick to recommend the site be built in a neighboring borough.
See where we are going here?

[Phantombridgejumpe]

I agree with you 100%, my thoughts are typical NJ.

I will add this to my view, my town fought crazy hard against a 'mall' and it got very ugly. I put mall in quotes because it was a small plaza of 5-6 stores, not a mall in my opinion.

Even if I wanted the OTW in my town I would not the fight that I know would take place, if the mall got ugly I think this would be worse. I'm almost more against this splitting the town even more than I am against the OTW in town (if that makes sense at all).

I just heard of a Pathmark going out of business on Route 10 in Whippany/East Hanover and my fist thought was 'hey, you could put an OTW there and it would do well' it is simple for me to have that view because I don't care about these towns like I do the town my house is in.

[MaTH716]

Truthfully I just don't understand why people are against OTW's in their town. They would most likely be located on major roads in the middle of big strip malls/shopping centers (on some sort of commercial property). It's not like they would be looking to build them in the middle of a residential area. So realistically who would be negatively impacted from one of these parlors?

[Phantombridgejumpe]

Who would be hurt by a strip club?

Doesn't mean I think it would appropriate for my town.

[Bluto Blutarsky]

The race for Monmouth Park is now underway. The New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority this morning released its request for proposals to lease the Oceanport track, the Woodbridge off-track wagering site, and four future OTW sites from the state for the next five years. The winning bidder will also receive a half share of the state's interest in telephone and online wagering on horse races.
The proposal specifies that the new operator will take over the properties by June 1 and will be on the hook for several million dollars due to Oceanport for property taxes or payment in lieu of taxes.
Interested bidders must submit a $25,000 certified check in order to receive due diligence information and submit a proposal. Bidders must attend a ""conference for the purpose of acquainting themselves with the condition of Monmouth Park Racetrack and all circumstances that might impact the lease terms" next Thursday.

[thespaah]

I agree with you 100%, my thoughts are typical NJ.

I will add this to my view, my town fought crazy hard against a 'mall' and it got very ugly. I put mall in quotes because it was a small plaza of 5-6 stores, not a mall in my opinion.

Even if I wanted the OTW in my town I would not the fight that I know would take place, if the mall got ugly I think this would be worse. I'm almost more against this splitting the town even more than I am against the OTW in town (if that makes sense at all).

I just heard of a Pathmark going out of business on Route 10 in Whippany/East Hanover and my fist thought was 'hey, you could put an OTW there and it would do well' it is simple for me to have that view because I don't care about these towns like I do the town my house is in.
I don't know how long you've lived in NJ. I can tell you when I was there, the state wanted to legalize Sunday pari-mutuel wagering. This took years.
There was the church lobby that opposed it. There was the faction representing the "what's horse racing?" people who opposed it. I once heard a woman say that she doesn't care about horse racing but also said that she was afraid Sunday racing would cause her taxes to rise, so she would vote against it. Stupidity such as this reigns in NJ.
I am a proud native of NJ, but I am a realist. I am well aware of the things that make NJ tick. And it ain't normal.

[onefast99]

The race for Monmouth Park is now underway. The New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority this morning released its request for proposals to lease the Oceanport track, the Woodbridge off-track wagering site, and four future OTW sites from the state for the next five years. The winning bidder will also receive a half share of the state's interest in telephone and online wagering on horse races.
The proposal specifies that the new operator will take over the properties by June 1 and will be on the hook for several million dollars due to Oceanport for property taxes or payment in lieu of taxes.
Interested bidders must submit a $25,000 certified check in order to receive due diligence information and submit a proposal. Bidders must attend a ""conference for the purpose of acquainting themselves with the condition of Monmouth Park Racetrack and all circumstances that might impact the lease terms" next Thursday.
If the proposal isn't accepted the certified check will be returned. What's at stake here? 5 OTW's of which one is up and running, Favorites in Woodbridge. The qualified and successful selection to run MP and the 5 OTW's will have until January 2012 to show they are making headway in setting up another OTW. The approximate time to set one up and open it is 12-18 months. The current regime running the track will slowly transition the new track operators employees so there is no operational issues. The track will lose approximately 12m, the current OTW, Favorites, brings in approximately 6m. Should the other OTW's do the same this is a money making operation. I do not know how much 4NJbets currently adds to the bottom line. Next Thursday will prove to be a very interesting day at MP!

[Kelso]

Ok, here is the bottom line, you were wrong. The new investor who takes over MP and Favorites and has 4 additional OTW licenses won't be giving the monies over to anyone except their bottom line which is the way it should have been from day one. Thanks for the try.
My comments have all been directed at what SHOULD be done ... in justice to the taxpayers of New Jersey ... not what has or might be conned out of the state's notorious political establishment by greedy horsemen.

The licenses currently belong to NJSEA, ergo they BELONG TO ALL THE PEOPLE OF NEW JERSEY. I understand that reality offends you deeply ... consumed, as you are, by denial and wishful thinking ... but it doesn't change the fact.

(By the way ... a "lease" is far, far removed, in effect, from a "sale.")

[Canarsie]

I have a few questions maybe someone can answer.

Why a five year lease there's something more to this. A new Governor by the time it expires is a probability.

What happens to the 4 OTW's (if their built) at the end of the lease? Who owns them? Will the current lessee be reimbursed for building them or will they still own them?

Do they own 50% of NJbets and will that include exchange wagering also?

Where does the money go from the winning bid? Into the state treasury? I thought the government wanted to get out of the horse racing business why not a sale?

What happens to the exclusive with TVG?

I will be very interested to see if CDI bids on this there are reports that PNG will make one. That is one company I hope loses out. I really can't see Betfair putting in a winning bid but it won't be the first time I am wrong.

[The_Knight_Sky]

Do they own 50% of NJbets and will that include exchange wagering also?

I thought the government wanted to get out of the horse racing business why not a sale?



Great questions.
50% of the NJAW is part of the lease. Yes.

New Jersey sets deadline for Monmouth lease proposals (http://www.drf.com/news/new-jersey-sets-deadline-monmouth-lease-proposals) by Matt Hegarty

The notice stated that potential bidders will be allowed to submit proposals for the lease of the racetrack, “the assignment of five offtrack wagering licenses,” and the 50 percent stake in the modest account-wagering operation, 4NJbets.com, after submitting a $25,000 application fee. Bidders also will be required to attend a “pre-proposal meeting” on March 10 at Monmouth, the notice said.

Christie has contended that the racing operations of the authority have lost tens of millions of dollars over the past several years, despite $30 million in subsidies from the state’s casinos from 2008 to 2010.

_____________________________________

Lie. :ThmbDown: And if it were true, there wouldn't be such interest in this 5 year lease program (without casino subsidies on the horizon). Open up the books, please. Where did all the racetrack revenue go every year for the past 30 years?

[onefast99]

Great questions.
50% of the NJAW is part of the lease. Yes.

New Jersey sets deadline for Monmouth lease proposals (http://www.drf.com/news/new-jersey-sets-deadline-monmouth-lease-proposals)by Matt Hegarty

The notice stated that potential bidders will be allowed to submit proposals for the lease of the racetrack, “the assignment of five offtrack wagering licenses,” and the 50 percent stake in the modest account-wagering operation, 4NJbets.com, after submitting a $25,000 application fee. Bidders also will be required to attend a “pre-proposal meeting” on March 10 at Monmouth, the notice said.

Christie has contended that the racing operations of the authority have lost tens of millions of dollars over the past several years, despite $30 million in subsidies from the state’s casinos from 2008 to 2010.

_____________________________________

Lie. :ThmbDown: And if it were true, there wouldn't be such interest in this 5 year lease program (without casino subsidies on the horizon). Open up the books, please. Where did all the racetrack revenue go every year for the past 30 years?
Once the 25k check is received by the NJSEA they will release the due diligence. I am sure there will be 10-12 interested parties there on Thursday, my gut feeling tells me there will be racing as usual at MP this spring and summer with the NJSEA running it and the purse monies will come from a loan from the casino re-development fund. The NJSEA will then allow the horseman to pursue the remaining 4 OTW licenses within the next 10-12 months.

[The_Knight_Sky]

I am sure there will be 10-12 interested parties there on Thursday, my gut feeling tells me there will be racing as usual at MP this spring and summer with the NJSEA running it and the purse monies will come from a loan from the casino re-development fund.




10 to 12 parties?
That's way more than what Mr. Luicci reports in the Star-Ledger. (http://www.nj.com/horse-racing/index.ssf/2011/03/monmouth_parks_ownership_future_schedule_uncertain .html)
Is Halsey Minor showing up in his convertible? :confused: :D


Among the parties expected to show interest in leasing Monmouth Park are BetFair, Scientific Games, Hialeah Park, Churchill Downs, Greenwood Racing, local owners George and Lori Hall, and New York real estate developer Morris Bailey, who purchased Resorts casino last fall.

______________

As for the Casino Redevelopment Fund. The Guv has been adamant lately
in the media about not releasing the funds for racing. A sudden change of heart for a future presidential candidate?

No matter. Monmouth's Elite Summer racing sked should be Friday-Saturday-Sunday again this year up to Labor Day. A secondary meet should last no longer than Halloween. Anything else is a recipe for disaster.

I hope the NJTHA has the good sense to work with the new people
for a year or two during the transition before they press for 141 racing days :eek:
again.

[Canarsie]

Among the parties expected to show interest in leasing Monmouth Park are BetFair, Scientific Games, Hialeah Park, Churchill Downs, Greenwood Racing, local owners George and Lori Hall, and New York real estate developer Morris Bailey, who purchased Resorts casino last fall.

______________


Wow I'm rooting against a bunch of them lets do a review.

Betfair in my opinion is only interested in the OTW's, 4NJBets, and exchange wagering. They would probably not sink a cent into improving Monmouth.

Greenwood I don't even have to say anything. :lol:

Scientific Games runs the wagering system that has gone down numerous times for at least a couple of hours. On Derby day a few years ago there was serious lag and no confirmation of your wager. There were other days as well. Heavy volume is no excuse in this day and age.

You know who I would love to see get it though it's impossible? The guy who started Youbet. Even though I never could use it people gave it accolades as the best ADW. :ThmbUp:

[The_Knight_Sky]

I really do not have a strong opinion on the prospective owners
mentioned by Mr. Luicci. There are chinks in everyone's armour.

George and Lori Hall though, seem interesting.
They're local horseowners (Nacho Friend and Bickersons fame, trained by Kelly John Breen) I think they would do right by horse racing in New Jersey.

One thing is clear.
None of the eventual owner should be taking racetrack profits and building
stadiums, convention centers and aquariums in Camden, NJ. :faint:

[onefast99]

My comments have all been directed at what SHOULD be done ... in justice to the taxpayers of New Jersey ... not what has or might be conned out of the state's notorious political establishment by greedy horsemen.

The licenses currently belong to NJSEA, ergo they BELONG TO ALL THE PEOPLE OF NEW JERSEY. I understand that reality offends you deeply ... consumed, as you are, by denial and wishful thinking ... but it doesn't change the fact.

(By the way ... a "lease" is far, far removed, in effect, from a "sale.")
Before coming on here and slamming everyone when you respond to threads, try doing the right thing and have an intelligent conversation. The NJSEA will allow the horseman to build out the OTW's if they do not get a suitor to lease MP. The NJSEA may be the main reason why the horse racing industry is in trouble. If they built out the other 4 OTW's there would be sufficient funds to keep horse racing going without any slots revenue.

[Kelso]

One thing is clear. None of the eventual owner should be taking racetrack profits and building stadiums, convention centers and aquariums in Camden, NJ. :faint:

Awfully tough to "take" something that hasn't been there for many years, particularly when one factors in an additional $175 million of casino profits that have have been squandered subsidizing NJ racing over the years.

All of that money could (and SHOULD) just as easily have gone into the state treasury for the benefit of ALL of NJ's taxpayers. But, instead, it was pumped into horsemen's troughs ... and bank accounts.

[Kelso]

If they built out the other 4 OTW's there would be sufficient funds to keep horse racing going without any slots revenue.But your "sufficient funds" would merely have then come from the disposition of PUBLIC ASSETS, namely those extremely valuable licences. Therefore, it would be just another way of shoveling a TAXPAYER-FUNDED SUBSIDY into the bank accounts of horsemen.

The licenses belong ... at least for now and unless you horsemen kiss the right political asses ... to all the people of New Jersey.

Proceeds from the lease or sale of NJSEA tracks or licenses should be returned ... in their ENTIRETY ... to the state treasury. If horsemen can't succeed without handouts from already overburdoned taxpayers, then they deserve to go out of business.

[onefast99]

But your "sufficient funds" would merely have then come from the disposition of PUBLIC ASSETS, namely those extremely valuable licences. Therefore, it would be just another way of shoveling a TAXPAYER-FUNDED SUBSIDY into the bank accounts of horsemen.

The licenses belong ... at least for now and unless you horsemen kiss the right political asses ... to all the people of New Jersey.

Proceeds from the lease or sale of NJSEA tracks or licenses should be returned ... in their ENTIRETY ... to the state treasury. If horsemen can't succeed without handouts from already overburdoned taxpayers, then they deserve to go out of business.
Because you say so? I guess you didn't realize that the OTW's are and always were for the benefit of the horse rcing industry. But then again you seem to know more than anyone on this subject. Another thread you got involved in with your anti everything banter.

[Kelso]

the OTW's are and always were for the benefit of the horse rcing industry.Why ... because YOU said so? (Or was it some bought and paid for NJ politicians?)

Ever hear it's not legal to give away something that's not yours to give? Or do you simply not care, provided that YOU, horseman, are on the receiving end?

[usedtolovetvg]

Two reasons Betfair would lease Monmouth; they don't like owning anything. Have you checked the lineup of tracks TVG is now airing? Sunland, Turf Paradise, Meadowlands, Woodbine Harness and Aqueduct & Tampa that they share with HRTV. With Hollywood Park on life support and Oak Tree gone that leaves TVG with about 16 weeks of exclusive product. They need top racing on their network badly.

They also want to absolutely control the U.S. test of their Betting Exchange. They would be able to beta test in NJ and make the necessary adjustments needed to take it nation-wide. Oh yeah, and hope that the state lets them operate their Exchange to include in-state sports betting.

[Canarsie]

Two reasons Betfair would lease Monmouth; they don't like owning anything. Have you checked the lineup of tracks TVG is now airing? Sunland, Turf Paradise, Meadowlands, Woodbine Harness and Aqueduct & Tampa that they share with HRTV. With Hollywood Park on life support and Oak Tree gone that leaves TVG with about 16 weeks of exclusive product. They need top racing on their network badly.

They also want to absolutely control the U.S. test of their Betting Exchange. They would be able to beta test in NJ and make the necessary adjustments needed to take it nation-wide. Oh yeah, and hope that the state lets them operate their Exchange to include in-state sports betting.


Sorry first it could never go nationwide they probably cover the least amount of states out of any ADW. Sports betting is not legal anywhere but Nevada. Delaware"s try at it was recently knocked down in the Supreme Court.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-05-03/delaware-sports-gambling-bid-rejected-by-high-court-update1-.html

Our governor recently/news vetoed online poker.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/117385828_Christie_vetoes_online_gambling_measure. html



Exchange wagering also goes up for bid there is no guarantee they will get it. My hunch is the company who wins the lease has a leg up. Still can't see Betfair putting in a winning bid they will have to pay lots of real property tax due Oceanport almost immediately.

http://blogs.app.com/capitolquickies/2011/03/03/bids-being-accepted-on-monmouth-park/


The lease isn't going to come cheap and them being buddy buddy with NJSEA isn't going to help them. All that money that poured into the United Nations won't help them one iota now.

With the ADW wars going on Now CDI might put in a strong did and take Monmouth off TVG and onto HRTV. That would be a winning move because my cable company would have to pick it up there would be too much pressure to leave it off. So not only would they gain many OTW's throughout the state, they will pick up viewers at TVG's expense.

Time will tell if I'm right or wrong whoever wins I hope makes improvements to Monmouth Park.

[onefast99]

The latest news is that MP will release a statement on Tuesday or Wednesday of next week, stay tuned.

[onefast99]

Why ... because YOU said so? (Or was it some bought and paid for NJ politicians?)

Ever hear it's not legal to give away something that's not yours to give? Or do you simply not care, provided that YOU, horseman, are on the receiving end?
What is being given away? It is a lease not a sale, read the fine print in the RFP if you have one, if not stop spewing garbage about something you know absolutely nothing about.

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Despite its money losing ways, Monmouth Park is still an attractive entity.
Eight prospective lessees submitted $25,000 deposit checks today at a meeting to discuss the race track's future in Oceanport.
The New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority is looking to lease Monmouth Park starting on June 1. The lease offer includes the off-track wagering facility in Woodbridge, as well as licenses to build four additional OTW's.
Monmouth Park had an operating deficit of $6.1 million last year.
Real-estate developer Morris Bailey, the Angelo Gordon Company, Mike Musto (representing the Thoroughbred Horseman's Association), real-estate developer John Brunetti, BetFair (owners of TVG), Ocala Meadows, Bernard Dowd and Greenwood Racing (owners of Philadelphia Park), submitted the $25,000 deposit checks today.
The deadline for submitting deposit checks is Mar. 31, the Sports Authority hopes to name the new lessee shortly after that.
"I was impressed with the turnout to be honest with you," said Dennis Robinson, president and CEO of the Sports Authority. "It exceeded my expectations and I think we may be getting additional checks as well."

[onefast99]

Once the 25k check is received by the NJSEA they will release the due diligence. I am sure there will be 10-12 interested parties there on Thursday, my gut feeling tells me there will be racing as usual at MP this spring and summer with the NJSEA running it and the purse monies will come from a loan from the casino re-development fund. The NJSEA will then allow the horseman to pursue the remaining 4 OTW licenses within the next 10-12 months.
When all the dust settles there will be about 10 interested parties. The NJSEA isn't giving anything away here and the successful bidder will need to amend the terms of this deal to make it interesting.

[The_Knight_Sky]

Despite its money losing ways...



Not entirely true.
That explains why people are coming out of their caves to put in a bid.



the Angelo Gordon Company :confused:

[Bluto Blutarsky]

I had to laugh when I saw a couple of these names- Ocala Meadows is Frank Stronach. Bernard Dowd is a locally based equine vet. I know vets make a lot of money but tell me he is just the face of a well financed group interested in Monmouth!

[Robert Goren]

There are ways to make racing at Monmouth Park profitable. Everyone that I can think of involves big concessions from the horsemen in the short term. Good luck with that no matter who get its.

[onefast99]

Not entirely true.
That explains why people are coming out of their caves to put in a bid.
A $23b hedge fund who specializes in alternative investments. Ocala Meadows is the Stronach organization. There are several more who have expressed interest and will be added to the list once they put up their 25k. Racing will begin on May 14th 2011 it will be run by the NJSEA until the new entity takes over on June 1st.

[Canarsie]

There are ways to make racing at Monmouth Park profitable. Everyone that I can think of involves big concessions from the horsemen in the short term. Good luck with that no matter who get its.

When the 4 OTW's are built it will be very profitable. 4 more that are larger than Favorites but designed similar (sports bar will do fine) and the lessee will be one happy trooper.

Once again you prove how clueless you are about NJ. They don't need concessions from the horsemen at all. There are bunches bidding on something they know is a money maker. I suggest you book a flight to Newark and visit Favorites.

I once spent 10 days repairing a Jaguar in Hampton (population 420 back then), Nebraska. That doesn't make me an expert on the state.

[lamboguy]

the way i see it, the state is keeping the property and leasing it out to the party gets rewarded the operation. i have no idea how they could possibly give the deal to stronach. i don't like his record in taking over racetracks. maybe betfair will come up with different ideas to make monmouth go. i hope so any way!

[onefast99]

the way i see it, the state is keeping the property and leasing it out to the party gets rewarded the operation. i have no idea how they could possibly give the deal to stronach. i don't like his record in taking over racetracks. maybe betfair will come up with different ideas to make monmouth go. i hope so any way!
Stronach has the ability to run the track and set up the OTW's. The track is a losing proposition no matter how you slice it. The OTW's are profitable when set up and run correctly. Favorites in Woodbridge makes very good money. Let's see what happens.

[Robert Goren]

When the 4 OTW's are built it will be very profitable. 4 more that are larger than Favorites but designed similar (sports bar will do fine) and the lessee will be one happy trooper.

Once again you prove how clueless you are about NJ. They don't need concessions from the horsemen at all. There are bunches bidding on something they know is a money maker. I suggest you book a flight to Newark and visit Favorites.

I once spent 10 days repairing a Jaguar in Hampton (population 420 back then), Nebraska. That doesn't make me an expert on the state.Actually 10 days in Hampton would pretty much make you an expert on at least the rural part of Nebraska. Back in the 60s Hampton had great bar/restaurant. I used to eat their with my dad after a day at Fonner Park.
NJ has one profitable OTW. That does not mean that the next 3 will be, even if they get built. OTWs or OTBs have been tried in a lot of places. The results have mixed to say the least. NY has had few profitable ones, but some very notable failures. Even if all are profitable, NJ racing like horse racing every where is facing an ever decreasing number of gamblers. The value is not there to attract new gamblers in the numbers need to stay open. Every race track in the country is in the same boat. There been thread after thread on this site about this.
The one thing I do know is what it takes for me to bet on a race. I and the rest of the gamblers who make horse racing possible need a lot more than we are getting right now. The horsemen share of the takeout is now more than entire takeout was when I started betting horses. You don't need a Math degree from MIT to see where the cuts have got to come from. Technology is not save horse racing when the product is this unattractive. You can call me a Nebraska hick all you want, but that not going get anybody to bet one more dime on a NJ race.
I am not knocking the quality of NJ racing, but just like every place else, it is over priced for the gambler. That is something horsemen, not just in NJ but everywhere, don't to want to even consider.

[Robert Goren]

If the OTWs are too profitable and the race track loses too much money, the owner might get the idea to close the race track and keep the OTWs open. I know I would. That is something horsemen should think about.

[onefast99]

If the OTWs are too profitable and the race track loses too much money, the owner might get the idea to close the race track and keep the OTWs open. I know I would. That is something horsemen should think about.
Here is the scoop, the NJSEA is leasing the track the 5 OTW licenses and you get half interest in the online wagering system aka 4njbets.com, the rules of the RFP include making an attempt to start planning to set up the OTW's by January 2012. I didn't say build them just make some progress. Each OTW will take 12-18 months to build out and complete. The NJSEA has a stipulation that if live racing comes to a halt by the lessee, the licenses for the OTW's will be surrendered to the NJSEA immediately. There is a lot to lose here and anyone who thinks they can come in and grab the money making part and let the track go will lose everything.

[The_Knight_Sky]

The NJSEA has a stipulation that if live racing comes to a halt by the lessee, the licenses for the OTW's will be surrendered to the NJSEA immediately.



Good explanation.
So it looks like they're "staying in the horse racing business" for quite a bit ;)

I'd rather have them sell the property outright.
The fact they're hanging on to both Monmouth and The Meadowlands makes me wonder if slots/sports betting is closer than we think.

Do you have a Morning Line for the field, onefast99?
From the favorite down to the longshots lessors.

[The_Knight_Sky]

Racing will begin on May 14th 2011 it will be run by the NJSEA
until the new entity takes over on June 1st.



Doesn't that complicate the contracts with the vendors,
personnel, employee salary structure, purse structure and so forth?

It's getting very late now to do a mid-meet switch.
I'd rather see the NJSEA carry the ball one last time up to a Labor Day finish.

[lamboguy]

Stronach has the ability to run the track and set up the OTW's. The track is a losing proposition no matter how you slice it. The OTW's are profitable when set up and run correctly. Favorites in Woodbridge makes very good money. Let's see what happens.
you know it should'nt be that way. for years race track owners made packages of money. why can't they make money today?

the answer is because the game needs to be straightened out.

[Kelso]

What is being given away? It is a lease not a sale, read the fine print in the RFP if you have one, if not stop spewing garbage about something you know absolutely nothing about.

According to YOU, horseman, the proceeds from the lease/sale should go to the wallets of horsemen. That would be (yet another) give-away. Understand, selfish one?

(And, with your inane question, it is confirmed that you know painfully little even of what you write; not to mention how little you know about what you write! Wishful thinking is a treacherous pursuit.)

The licenses and the real property belong to the entire state. If the entire state doesn't receive the entire financial benefit of their sale/lease then, to that extent, the benefit is given away.

[Robert Goren]

you know it should'nt be that way. for years race track owners made packages of money. why can't they make money today?

the answer is because the game needs to be straightened out.They stopped making money when they started raising the cost of wagering. They have tried simulcasting, OTBs and internet wagering. The problems just get worse. No one in a position of power in racing wants to tackle the real problems of racing. They just keep looking for outside sources of money instead. The people putting on the show are doing a very good job of keeping people from going to show.

[Robert Goren]

Here is the scoop, the NJSEA is leasing the track the 5 OTW licenses and you get half interest in the online wagering system aka 4njbets.com, the rules of the RFP include making an attempt to start planning to set up the OTW's by January 2012. I didn't say build them just make some progress. Each OTW will take 12-18 months to build out and complete. The NJSEA has a stipulation that if live racing comes to a halt by the lessee, the licenses for the OTW's will be surrendered to the NJSEA immediately. There is a lot to lose here and anyone who thinks they can come in and grab the money making part and let the track go will lose everything. I forgot that we are talking about the East coast. Here the Midwest, it wouldn't 3 months to open one once the approval given by government.
The same problems exist for all outside sources of money. Sooner or later the outside source is going to go the government and say "Get rid of the track and we can split money going there". The only sure future for racing is race tracks that can stand on their own. Outside money has got to be a bonus, not the life blood. Something has got to give to get gamblers back trackside. You should get better deal for wagering at track than anywhere else. That should be the first order of business, not trying to force an ATW down the throats of some community that doesn't want it.

[onefast99]

According to YOU, horseman, the proceeds from the lease/sale should go to the wallets of horsemen. That would be (yet another) give-away. Understand, selfish one?

(And, with your inane question, it is confirmed that you know painfully little even of what you write; not to mention how little you know about what you write! Wishful thinking is a treacherous pursuit.)

The licenses and the real property belong to the entire state. If the entire state doesn't receive the entire financial benefit of their sale/lease then, to that extent, the benefit is given away.
One word describes you, clueless. It isn't hard to google NJSEA and reward yourself with an education on what is and isn't going on. It only takes a few minutes. Will we see you this summer carrying a sign outside Monmouth Park protesting against the horseman?

[onefast99]

I forgot that we are talking about the East coast. Here the Midwest, it wouldn't 3 months to open one once the approval given by government.
The same problems exist for all outside sources of money. Sooner or later the outside source is going to go the government and say "Get rid of the track and we can split money going there". The only sure future for racing is race tracks that can stand on their own. Outside money has got to be a bonus, not the life blood. Something has got to give to get gamblers back trackside. You should get better deal for wagering at track than anywhere else. That should be the first order of business, not trying to force an ATW down the throats of some community that doesn't want it.
You bring up some excellent points, the track should offer an incentive to go and bet there. That is one of the major problems with the way MP has been run, the management doesn't make an effort to make those who frequent the track feel wanted. Very good point.

[Canarsie]

I forgot that we are talking about the East coast. Here the Midwest, it wouldn't 3 months to open one once the approval given by government.


That would be totally impossible once again you don't know what you are talking about. It would take at least 3 months and probably much more to get all the wiring done to accept wagers. They buy used properties that have to be gutted and redone. There would be lots of very large high definition tv's to set up and make sure all the feeds are done correctly.

Show me one OTW that was ready to go in three months in the mid west inquiring minds want to know.

The only bar restaurant I knew of in Hampton (around 1970) was up a dirt road off the interstate. The owner of the gas station off I-80 let us work on the car outside and use the lifts when we needed to. He was a real nice guy I still remember his first name it was Larry.

[Robert Goren]

A few years ago Lincoln moved its simulcast facilities from the track to a building about quarter mile away for the winter. It was an old school building. It took less than 5 weeks. I won't go into the reasons they moved, but it was necessary and was an emergency situation.

[Robert Goren]

The only bar restaurant I knew of in Hampton (around 1970) was up a dirt road off the interstate. The owner of the gas station off I-80 let us work on the car outside and use the lifts when we needed to. He was a real nice guy I still remember his first name it was Larry. That would be the place. They had really reasonable priced rib steaks. I didn't know anyone in Hampton, but my dad did. An American Legion connection, I think. I am happy you got a dose of rural Nebraska hospitality. The people in small towns are still the same. Unfortunately there is not as many of them.

[Canarsie]

That would be the place. They had really reasonable priced rib steaks. I didn't know anyone in Hampton, but my dad did. An American Legion connection, I think. I am happy you got a dose of rural Nebraska hospitality. The people in small towns are still the same. Unfortunately there is not as many of them.

This is off topic so my last post on Hampton.

Yes the people were really nice. Two girls were like groupies at the gas station (think it was a Texaco?) I said to Larry "what's their names Dia and Gonna"? He said "what"? I told him their last names must be "Ria". He cracked up said "your pretty funny for a New Yorker".

When we went to the bar the first night there were lots of pretty girls there. The next night not a one and I asked Larry if it was a dead night or something. His reply was "the words out on you boys" :lol:

The second night the people there were real nice they bought us drinks and we chatted a lot. They didn't know we were fixing a car down the road so they accepted us. But the girls never came back. I still remember going into Lincoln and asking for a dozen connecting rod bolts and they told me 2 weeks. :bang: We had to drive all the way to Denver to get the parts that was the closest place.

In closing we were still pretty dirty looking from working on the car but went to eat at a diner in Grand Island. The waitress asked us if we wanted a job as a dishwasher. I ask "how much" and her reply was "fifty cents an hour". I answered well I make $4 an hour back home no thanks. She stopped and told her waitress friends we were rich guys. :lol:

I had a great steak in Lincoln the place was big and mobbed. The price was right and it was really really good. Plus everyone in Nebraska always said in the middle of talking "go big red". When we went to the dorms at the University of Nebraska that was a real trip.

My apologies if I bored someone with this I promise no more.

[Kelso]

One word describes you, clueless. It isn't hard to google NJSEA and reward yourself with an education on what is and isn't going on. It only takes a few minutes. Will we see you this summer carrying a sign outside Monmouth Park protesting against the horseman?

This isn't about your captive agency. Nor is it about promises from politicians and bureaucrats that you were dumb enough to believe.

This is about who owns the tracks (MTH/MED), who owns 4NJBETS, who owns the OTW licenses and, ultimately, EXACTLY WHO OWNS THE NJSEA. For each question, horseman, I give you one clue: it ain't you selfish horsemen!

(Oh hell, I'll give you the answers. In each instance, the answer is 'ownership is in the hands ... and for the exclusive benefit ... of the taxpayers of New Jersey.' Choke on it!)


And no need for the sign ... the Governor's gonna take care of you greedy horseman on behalf of all of NJ's taxpayers. Of course, with your head chronically buried in the sand (or up your ass) you refuse to see that, don't you?

[onefast99]

This isn't about your captive agency. Nor is it about promises from politicians and bureaucrats that you were dumb enough to believe.

This is about who owns the tracks (MTH/MED), who owns 4NJBETS, who owns the OTW licenses and, ultimately, EXACTLY WHO OWNS THE NJSEA. For each question, horseman, I give you one clue: it ain't you selfish horsemen!

(Oh hell, I'll give you the answers. In each instance, the answer is 'ownership is in the hands ... and for the exclusive benefit ... of the taxpayers of New Jersey.' Choke on it!)


And no need for the sign ... the Governor's gonna take care of you greedy horseman on behalf of all of NJ's taxpayers. Of course, with your head chronically buried in the sand (or up your ass) you refuse to see that, don't you?
Maybe it's time for you to run for office, you seem to be a closet type politician, one who would work for all the people all the time. Give it a try you have all the answers. Just one question why do you hate the horseman so much and you are on a horse racing forum? Maybe I'm in the wrong place!http://freeemoticonsandsmileys.com/3D%20Smileys/3D%20Funny%20Smileys/target%20practice.gif

[onefast99]

(Oh hell, I'll give you the answers. In each instance, the answer is 'ownership is in the hands ... and for the exclusive benefit ... of the taxpayers of New Jersey.' Choke on it!)


The statement of the year for you Kelso the clown. If the NJSEA did a decent job and didn't fall asleep at the switch the problems that exist today with the lack of a defined revenue stream wouldn't exist. Your business background must be very limited not to realize what has happened in NJ. You continue to bring up the taxpayers of NJ, if the NJSEA really cared about the taxpayers they would have built out the 4 OTW's and made the two private companies build theirs out also. Nice try, time to boycott NJ now.

[Kelso]

why do you hate the horseman so much and you are on a horse racing forum?

1) I've never hated anyone in my life ... not even horsemen. I've also never taken kindly to any group that views my property as their property.

2) Are you pompously suggesting that in order to be a genuine horse racing fan ... as evidenced by frequenting a horse racing forum ... one must also hold horsemen in awe, pleased to defer to their every selfish demand?

Surely sounds as if you're doing just that. Of course, for you to do so would be entirely in keeping with "the racing world revolves around us" mentality of so many very vocal horsemen.

[onefast99]

1) I've never hated anyone in my life ... not even horsemen. I've also never taken kindly to any group that views my property as their property.

Please send me two cases of whatever you drink before posting on this forum. The fact is the NJSEA did a poor job developing the revenue streams for the horse racing industry, instead they built an aquarium, a convention center in Atlantic City and one in Wildwood NJ with funds that could have gone to the NJ taxpayers. Now the Governor has to make a decision that will affect many lives(15,000 work in this industry), not just the "greedy" horseman as you call them but the people who make their livings in that industry. Yes there are those who think the horseman should receive some sort of welfare and I am not one of those, in fact there are very few who wanted the casino monies as gaming expansion especially vlt's would have helped both the race tracks and casinos. You can continue to think that the NJ taxpayers are being fleeced, and they are by the NJSEA.

[David-LV]

1) I've never hated anyone in my life ... not even horsemen. I've also never taken kindly to any group that views my property as their property.

Kelso,

Judging what your posts or your avatar says, I don't know if I can believe you.

__________
David-LV

[Kelso]

1) I've never hated anyone in my life ... not even horsemen. I've also never taken kindly to any group that views my property as their property.

Kelso,

Judging what your posts or your avatar says, I don't know if I can believe you.

__________
David-LV

Well, certainly you "can" if you are sufficiently so inclined AND if you actually understand the meanings of the words "hate" and "can."

But you SHOULD trust me that you SHOULD believe that I couldn't care less.

[onefast99]

Well, certainly you "can" if you are sufficiently so inclined AND if you actually understand the meanings of the words "hate" and "can."

But you SHOULD trust me that you SHOULD believe that I couldn't care less.
With posts like this you wonder why your credibility is zero.

[Kelso]

With posts like this you wonder why your credibility is zero.I've never wondered any such thing. Why would you lie like that? (Oh, that's right ... you're a horseman and anything goes when you're whining for public welfare.)

You'll have credibility of your own when you can run your own business without having to demand OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY. You won't have to continue making things up then, either. Until then, you'll continue to be just another taker. Lose the entitlement mentality, whoresman.

You're not owed ANYthing by the taxpayers of New Jersey ... including the profits from other gambling operations run by adults who know how to be successful without handouts.

(And I don't give two damns how YOU regard my credibility, either. You're just another leach on the public treasury. Now go find some other whiners to help you fight your battles.)

[PaceAdvantage]

Kelso, once again I am starting to regret my recent decision regarding your participation here. It seems as though every thread you particpate in turns belligerent, especially when you are banging heads with horsemen here...it's not something I want to see continue.

[onefast99]

You're not owed ANYthing by the taxpayers of New Jersey ... including the profits from other gambling operations run by adults who know how to be successful without handouts.

I would suggest you do some homework on NJ's casino industry before making a false statement that it is a successful one without any handouts. In fact the NJ casino tax base is the lowest in the country(Nevada is second and Mississippi is third) and the casinos can now police themselves. But once again you have elected to go down the road of name calling and making false and mis-leading statements as you have been known to do in many of the threads you are involved in. In the future gather some real facts before posting you never know what that may do for your overall credibility!

[onefast99]

Kelso, once again I am starting to regret my recent decision regarding your participation here. It seems as though every thread you particpate in turns belligerent, especially when you are banging heads with horsemen here...it's not something I want to see continue.
I think many of the NJ horseman are pretty thick skinned, so I would hope. The only issue I have with Kelso is his lack of knowledge of the subject we are debating. It always ends up that he gets frustrated and resorts to name calling which keeps others from participating in the thread who may have some relevant information to post.

[Robert Goren]

The Casinos are not looking to the horseracing business for money to stay afloat. The same can't be said about the horseracing business. Nobody has suggested Monmouth dig 30 million and turn it over casinos. I sure that the casinos would agree in NY minute not to try to open up a race track for 30 million. I believe Monmouth Park can be a money making horse racing operation, but not unless the NJTHA make some big concessions. Anybody who agrees to last years purses or 140 day meet will be really lucky to complete the meet.

[onefast99]

The Casinos are not looking to the horseracing business for money to stay afloat. The same can't be said about the horseracing business. Nobody has suggested Monmouth dig 30 million and turn it over casinos. I sure that the casinos would agree in NY minute not to try to open up a race track for 30 million. I believe Monmouth Park can be a money making horse racing operation, but not unless the NJTHA make some big concessions. Anybody who agrees to last years purses or 140 day meet will be really lucky to complete the meet.
? The NJTHA made a bad deal when they signed on the dotted line for the casino concessions not to put slots in at the racetracks. It would have created a decent revenue stream and also would have kept many gamblers from crossing the state lines to head to Parx or the Sands. Right now it would take a lot more concessions from the Governor and the state to make AC a place that would be able to compete in the casino industry without losing at least one third of the casinos currently operating.

[affirmedny]

The Casinos are not looking to the horseracing business for money to stay afloat.

No, they're looking to the state. And the big blowhard gov, loved everywhere BUT NJ, is gonna give it to them.

[Kelso]

I would suggest you do some homework on NJ's casino industry before making a false statement that it is a successful one without any handouts. In fact the NJ casino tax base is the lowest in the country(Nevada is second and Mississippi is third) and the casinos can now police themselves.The homework and the logic have both worked consistantly against your greed, horseman.

That's your biggest problem with me. I'm on to the con games you've pulled in past (draining $175+ MILLION to date from the casinos) and the con your trying to pull now (horsemen are entitled to gambling profits from slots or tables outside of AC).

Guess what, horseman ... I'm not alone in understanding your scams. That's why horsemen will not get their hooves into any more businesses they don't, themselves, run. In state after state, with more to come, you've been outed.

And BTW, a "lowest" tax rate is still a tax rate. In other words, casinos are paying into the public treasury. New Jersey horsemen, by comparison, have been a long-standing drain on both the state (NJSEA losses on MTH and MED) and their more productive gambling rivals in the casino industry.

(But, hey; perhaps you're on to something! Why don't you and all your horsey pals pay back that $175+ million to the casinos ... and then the state can raise the tax on them by $175+ million?!? That would make you feel better about the NJ casino tax rate, wouldn't it?)



In the future gather some real facts before posting you never know what that may do for your overall credibility!My facts have withstood your bile, your fabrications and your determined wishful thinking. And I could not care less about your standards for credibility. You've made it abundantly clear that you believe only what you want to believe, no matter how detached from reality that actually is.

[onefast99]

The homework and the logic have both worked consistantly against your greed, horseman.

That's your biggest problem with me. I'm on to the con games you've pulled in past (draining $175+ MILLION to date from the casinos) and the con your trying to pull now (horsemen are entitled to gambling profits from slots or tables outside of AC).

Guess what, horseman ... I'm not alone in understanding your scams. That's why horsemen will not get their hooves into any more businesses they don't, themselves, run. In state after state, with more to come, you've been outed.

And BTW, a "lowest" tax rate is still a tax rate. In other words, casinos are paying into the public treasury. New Jersey horsemen, by comparison, have been a long-standing drain on both the state (NJSEA losses on MTH and MED) and their more productive gambling rivals in the casino industry.

(But, hey; perhaps you're on to something! Why don't you and all your horsey pals pay back that $175+ million to the casinos ... and then the state can raise the tax on them by $175+ million?!? That would make you feel better about the NJ casino tax rate, wouldn't it?)



My facts have withstood your bile, your fabrications and your determined wishful thinking. And I could not care less about your standards for credibility. You've made it abundantly clear that you believe only what you want to believe, no matter how detached from reality that actually is.
175m from the casinos? Can you please just once provide any factual information from a link or story, and not one you have made up. The monies the casinos gave to the horse racing industry was to keep slots out a payoff in essence. If you don't think that was a great investment on the part of the casinos you really are clueless.
You have no clue on the tax rate, read the nj.com articles and then come back and post factual information not bs.
You mention scams, what is that all about? Just a last ditch effort to bring attention to yourself which is all you do. The good thing is most on this forum elect to stay away from you and that has frustrated you so much that you have no alternative but to make an ass of yourself.

[Kelso]

175m from the casinos? Can you please just once provide any factual information from a link or story, and not one you have made up.How 'bout:

Philadelphia Inquirer - September 30 2010 (http://articles.philly.com/2010-09-30/news/24977868_1_horse-racing-industry-supplement-purses-harrah-s-chester-casino)

"The subsidy - $30 million this year and $7.5 million next year, when it expires - will have brought $176 million over eight years to racetracks at Freehold, Monmouth, Atlantic City, and the Meadowlands..."


Or:

Business Week May 25 2010 (http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9FTVD480.htm)

"Casinos have subsidized New Jersey's tracks since 2004... The total amount of the subsidy through 2011 is estimated at $176 million."


And I'll throw in:

SPressOfAtlanticCity.com - July 8 2009 (http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/web_specials/article_49036530-5309-11de-ac31-001cc4c002e0.html)

"The casinos are obligated for $176 million in cash and investment credits over seven years. The casinos are paying $30 million per year even as they lay off thousands of workers.

"... Analysis by The Press of Atlantic City shows that while bigger purses may help horse owners, they do not attract more people to the tracks to bet on horses.

"... Analyses of winners on randomly selected Meadowlands racing days show that two-thirds of the top purse money is won by out-of-state horse owners. A casino analysis shared with The Press shows that even in recent races in which New Jersey horses were given an entry preference, state-bred horses took the top winnings less than half the time.

"... Betting on horses has continued to decline in states where racetracks already have slot machines, according to reports.

"... the subsidies effectively divert millions of dollars from programs that benefit senior citizens and handicapped residents to finance winnings for horse owners."


No charge for assuaging your pitiful ignorance of your own damned business, horseman. (No wonder you need welfare!)



The monies the casinos gave to the horse racing industry was to keep slots out a payoff in essence. If you don't think that was a great investment on the part of the casinos you really are clueless.

Wrong again, horseman. It is you who is the economic and political illiterate, blinded as you are by chronic wishful thinking and self-delusion.

The horsemen were massively successful in conning the casinos into believing you had the political and public clout to get slots into your greedy hands in the first place ... notwithstanding the several years worth of lobbying, legislation, COMPETING DEMANDS FROM DYING CITIES FOR THEIR OWN PIECES OF THE SLOTS PIE, and a public Constitutional question.

$175+ MILLION later, you're still not satisfied ... and the casinos have finally grown wise to the fact that you welfare queens are incompetent in not only your own businesses, but in the critical ability to accurately understand your own situation.

The situation is that your prior con job has been publicly exposed for exactly what it is ... welfare at the expense of everyone else in the state. (Of course, you really don't give two damns about whose pockets you empty, do you ... just so long as you can profitably play your horsey games from the owners' boxes.)


The good thing is most on this forum elect to stay away from you and that has frustrated you so much that you have no alternative but to make an ass of yourself.If you really believed that you wouldn't be losing so much sleep trying to implant the thought in the (generally superior) minds of those who read your irrational rants and my considered replies. You fail again, horseman. Nobody fooled by your wishful thinking.

[onefast99]

$175+ MILLION later, you're still not satisfied ... and the casinos have finally grown wise to the fact that you welfare queens are incompetent in not only your own businesses, but in the critical ability to accurately understand your own situation.


Once again WRONG, the thoroughbred horse racing industry didn't take 176m as you have been implying the monies you are referring to were given to the entire horse racing industry in a poorly structured deal, but I guess you forgot to include the harness meets which are at the Meadowlands and Freehold in your calculations. The casinos were always afraid of the tracks getting slots and that is why they paid the horse racing industry, as a whole, over 200m, plain and simple to keep slots out. I mentioned in an earlier post that the deal the horseman took getting this payoff money was a bad choice for everyone involved as now the casinos in AC are looking for a handout, or welfare as you call it, but according to you that is ok.

The horsemen were massively successful in conning the casinos into believing you had the political and public clout to get slots into your greedy hands in the first place ... notwithstanding the several years worth of lobbying, legislation, COMPETING DEMANDS FROM DYING CITIES FOR THEIR OWN PIECES OF THE SLOTS PIE, and a public Constitutional question.

The NJSEA did have the power to get slots into the racetracks and the casinos were well aware of their power and elected to do a deal that cost them very little in the long run. Can you post a link to the "competing demands from the dying cities", sounds like a good read!



If you really believed that you wouldn't be losing so much sleep trying to implant the thought in the (generally superior) minds of those who read your irrational rants and my considered replies. You fail again, horseman. Nobody fooled by your wishful thinking.

I sleep very well at night knowing individuals like you are all bark and no bite.

[Kelso]

Once again WRONG, the thoroughbred horse racing industry didn't take 176m as you have been implying the monies you are referring to were given to the entire horse racing industry in a poorly structured deal, but I guess you forgot to include the harness meets which are at the Meadowlands and Freehold in your calculations.

You asked for links, I gave you links. If you don't like the reporting, take it up with the Philadelphia Inquirer, the Press of Atlantic City and Business Week. (BTW, the last I heard, owners of harness runners, too, are considered "horsemen.")

Then you might as well stick your head back in the sand ... or wherever else you tend to keep it when desperately trying to avoid seeing the reality of your steadily weakening situation.


The NJSEA did have the power to get slots into the racetracks and the casinos were well aware of their powerThere ya go again ... making things up out of nothing more than wishful thinking.

The NJSEA has no more authority than the City of Patterson to change the NJ state constitution; and the NJ state constitution says no casino gambling other than in Atlantic City. The casinos simply misjudged the political clout of the Welfare-for-Incompetent-Horsemen lobby and shelled out the subsidy. They've since wised up and realized that few people/politicians in New Jersey feel sorry for you losers.

[onefast99]

Monday, June 14, 2010 … 8 pp.

Contact: Rich Higginson 908.213.1971 or Donald Hoover 732-946-9170

Expansion of Slots Favored in N.J.

New Jersey voters favor expanding slot machines to the Meadowlands and other existing

horse racetracks, according to a recent poll by Fairleigh Dickinson University’s PublicMind™.

The study was underwritten by Trot-PAC.

Asked whether they support or favor expanding slots to the Meadowlands, voters favor the

proposal by 52%-37%. Independent voters favor the expansion of slots by an almost 2-to-1

margin (58%-33%); Democrats favor it 5-to-4 (51%-38%); and Republicans split on the issue

(46%-46%).

Voters differ in their opinions by age as well. Those 18 to 44 favor expansion by a 2-to-1

margin; those 45-64 favor it as well (51%-37%), but those of retirement age — 65 years of

age and older — oppose the idea by a 5-to-4 margin (49%-38%). Voters in the central and

northern counties favor the proposal, but voters in the southern counties lean against it

(46%-40%).

[onefast99]

The NJSEA has no more authority than the City of Patterson to change the NJ state constitution; and the NJ state constitution says no casino gambling other than in Atlantic City. The casinos simply misjudged the political clout of the Welfare-for-Incompetent-Horsemen lobby and shelled out the subsidy. They've since wised up and realized that few people/politicians in New Jersey feel sorry for you losers.

I never questioned the monopoly AC has in our state on casino gambling, the fact is sooner of later the voters of NJ will approve slots at the racetracks and if the NJSEA is still running those racetracks they will have a big say in it happening. NJ has many issues and the horse racing industry is just one of them, you bring up some decent points but nothing new. Every racetrack in America is facing the same issues today, how do you generate revenue in a sport that is declining due to many factors? NJ has the ability to correct many of the issues it faces if it allows casino gaming outside of AC. Enjoy the day.

[Relwob Owner]

[QUOTE=Kelso]1) I've never hated anyone in my life ... not even horsemen.

I have to ask....you say you dont hate horsemen but based on your posts, I cant imagine that is the case. If it is not hate, what would you call it?

[Kelso]

Sure I can read. The more salient question is ... do YOU have a functional brain?

First, consider the source, horseman. TROT-PAC??? (Oh, that's right. You don't consider harness racehorse owners to be "horsemen," do you?)

Next, (and as I've been so kind as to try to inform your greed-wracked mind of this before), all the poll avers is that people want quicker access to the spinning wheels ... and they don't care where they're located (even at racetracks!) so long as it's not in their back yards. That says nothing about giving selfish horsemen any claim at all to the handle from those machines.

I'm still waiting for the poll question that asks: "Should any taxable profits from expanded slot locations be distributed for the benefit of any special interest group, or should all taxable profits be retained by the state treasury for the benefit of all NJ taxpayers."

Think ya can get your HPBA friends to pay for THAT question, horseman. Or might only complicate your determined wishful thinking?

[Kelso]

I never questioned the monopoly AC has in our state on casino gambling

I quote: "The NJSEA did have the power to get slots into the racetracks..."

I didn't make it up. You typed it.

[Kelso]

I have to ask....you say you dont hate horsemen but based on your posts, I cant imagine that is the case. If it is not hate, what would you call it?

I have an intense dislike (and no, that doesn't equate to "hate") for anyone who tries to put his hand into my pocket.

As a horse player, that's what horsemen do when they whine for higher takeout.

As a taxpayer, it's also what they do when they stake a claim, moral or otherwise, to the profits of other enterprises (say, slot parlors) whose profits could just as well be taxed for the general benefit of the state that licensed the enterprise in the first place. It's even worse when they try to expropriate assets (say, OTB licenses) to their own selfish purposes that are owned outright by taxpayers.

I suggest you now ask the horsemen (at least two of them) who have done so why they have elected to cheapen this debate by desperately tossing the Hate Card into it.

[David-LV]

I have an intense dislike (and no, that doesn't equate to "hate") for anyone who tries to put his hand into my pocket.

As a horse player, that's what horsemen do when they whine for higher takeout.

As a taxpayer, it's also what they do when they stake a claim, moral or otherwise, to the profits of other enterprises (say, slot parlors) whose profits could just as well be taxed for the general benefit of the state that licensed the enterprise in the first place. It's even worse when they try to expropriate assets (say, OTB licenses) to their own selfish purposes that are owned outright by taxpayers.

I suggest you now ask the horsemen (at least two of them) who have done so why they have elected to cheapen this debate by desperately tossing the Hate Card into it.

Kelso,

You must be pulling everybody leg, because these posts of yours can't be real.

Only a jokester or the most gullible could believe any of the junk that you are spieling out of your brain.

________
David-LV

[onefast99]

I quote: "The NJSEA did have the power to get slots into the racetracks..."

I didn't make it up. You typed it.
The NJSEA will have a big say in where the slots end up as I stated previously thru a vote by the people of NJ, those same people who have had little or no say in the benefits and huge tax breaks Atlantic City Casinos are getting that is hurting NJ taxpayers more than the racing industry ever could . To deny that is pure stupidity on your part. The only way they will not have a large part in the decision is if both tracks are leased out to private individuals and with time slots will make their way into the Meadowlands and Monmouth Park.

[onefast99]

As a taxpayer, it's also what they do when they stake a claim, moral or otherwise, to the profits of other enterprises (say, slot parlors) whose profits could just as well be taxed for the general benefit of the state that licensed the enterprise in the first place. It's even worse when they try to expropriate assets (say, OTB licenses) to their own selfish purposes that are owned outright by taxpayers.



NJ Taxpayers Big Winners from Meadowlands and Monmouth Park Revenue

Figures released by Board of Commissioners of the New Jersey Sports & Exposition Authority (see attachment (http://www.njsea.com/uploadedFiles/NJSEAStateImpact.pdf)) show that New Jersey taxpayers have benefitted to the tune of a staggering $650 million in direct receipts from the Meadowlands Sports Complex and Monmouth Park since their inception in 1976 and 1985 respectively.

Click here for full article (http://www.njsea.com/news.aspx?year=2010&id=391)

[onefast99]

COMPETING DEMANDS FROM DYING CITIES FOR THEIR OWN PIECES OF THE SLOTS PIE

Can you give me a few links or "homemade articles" on this gem?

[Robert Goren]

As a taxpayer, it's also what they do when they stake a claim, moral or otherwise, to the profits of other enterprises (say, slot parlors) whose profits could just as well be taxed for the general benefit of the state that licensed the enterprise in the first place. It's even worse when they try to expropriate assets (say, OTB licenses) to their own selfish purposes that are owned outright by taxpayers.



NJ Taxpayers Big Winners from Meadowlands and Monmouth Park Revenue

Figures released by Board of Commissioners of the New Jersey Sports & Exposition Authority (see attachment (http://www.njsea.com/uploadedFiles/NJSEAStateImpact.pdf)) show that New Jersey taxpayers have benefitted to the tune of a staggering $650 million in direct receipts from the Meadowlands Sports Complex and Monmouth Park since their inception in 1976 and 1985 respectively.

Click here for full article (http://www.njsea.com/news.aspx?year=2010&id=391)Are they likely to return to that kind of profitability anytime soon? I think we all know the answer to that is "no" unless drastic measures are taken. Measures which NJTHA oppose.

[onefast99]

Are they likely to return to that kind of profitability anytime soon? I think we all know the answer to that is "no" unless drastic measures are taken. Measures which NJTHA oppose.
That is an excellent point, had the NJSEA built out the OTW's I don't think anyone would be looking for a new revenue stream.

[alhattab]

That is an excellent point, had the NJSEA built out the OTW's I don't think anyone would be looking for a new revenue stream.

I've said before that I never understood the slots to purses model. Never made much sense to me. But the point you make above, unique to NJ, is the big issue being largely ignored. It was the states responsibility to build 10 OTWs. In 10 years since approved, the state has built 1. While I agree with Christie's overall position on not providing continuing support, as I believe do many horsemen and fans, I don't understand how he cannot face up to the state's failure to perform on the OTW front and figure out how to cure it.

It would seem to me that the proposed purse supplements of $15, $10 and $5 million over the next three years would do the trick. If he felt backed into a corner and felt that he couldn't throw money to horse racing given the state's fiscal mess, he could even structure as a long-term loan which would be collateralized by the facilities themselves (the loan to value would probably be below 25%) and thus would easily be repaid at the end of the proposed 5 year lease term.

[Relwob Owner]

I have an intense dislike (and no, that doesn't equate to "hate") for anyone who tries to put his hand into my pocket.

As a horse player, that's what horsemen do when they whine for higher takeout.

As a taxpayer, it's also what they do when they stake a claim, moral or otherwise, to the profits of other enterprises (say, slot parlors) whose profits could just as well be taxed for the general benefit of the state that licensed the enterprise in the first place. It's even worse when they try to expropriate assets (say, OTB licenses) to their own selfish purposes that are owned outright by taxpayers.

I suggest you now ask the horsemen (at least two of them) who have done so why they have elected to cheapen this debate by desperately tossing the Hate Card into it.


Based on your posts, I would say that your definition of "dislike" and most others' definition of "hate" is probably about the same.

Your "dislike" of horsemen hurts all of your arguments and your general credibility as well IMO. It shows a huge bias coming into any discussion on and colors each one of your arguments, which given your "dislike" of horsemen, will always be weighted against them, will it not? Anyone familiar with any sort of situation similar to New Jersey's current one should realize what a complicated situation it is and that it would be almost possible to blame any one group for everything, as you seem to want to.....

The other issue with your blanket "dislike" of horsemen is that you are using an incredibly broad stroke to describe who horsemen are and how they behave.....I know and am familiar with a many of them and your negative view of them is way off in many cases.

[DSB]

Based on your posts, I would say that your definition of "dislike" and most others' definition of "hate" is probably about the same.

Your "dislike" of horsemen hurts all of your arguments and your general credibility as well IMO. It shows a huge bias coming into any discussion on and colors each one of your arguments, which given your "dislike" of horsemen, will always be weighted against them, will it not? Anyone familiar with any sort of situation similar to New Jersey's current one should realize what a complicated situation it is and that it would be almost possible to blame any one group for everything, as you seem to want to.....

The other issue with your blanket "dislike" of horsemen is that you are using an incredibly broad stroke to describe who horsemen are and how they behave.....I know and am familiar with a many of them and your negative view of them is way off in many cases.

At the risk of being drawn into another protracted and fruitless debate, I concur with your conclusions...

[onefast99]

I've said before that I never understood the slots to purses model. Never made much sense to me. But the point you make above, unique to NJ, is the big issue being largely ignored. It was the states responsibility to build 10 OTWs. In 10 years since approved, the state has built 1. While I agree with Christie's overall position on not providing continuing support, as I believe do many horsemen and fans, I don't understand how he cannot face up to the state's failure to perform on the OTW front and figure out how to cure it.

It would seem to me that the proposed purse supplements of $15, $10 and $5 million over the next three years would do the trick. If he felt backed into a corner and felt that he couldn't throw money to horse racing given the state's fiscal mess, he could even structure as a long-term loan which would be collateralized by the facilities themselves (the loan to value would probably be below 25%) and thus would easily be repaid at the end of the proposed 5 year lease term.
The Governor assembled a special panel that didn't bring up the issue of the OTW build-outs to insure a solid revenue stream for the horse racing industry, instead they gave recommendations on how to get rid of racing and throw more monies into the Xanadu project($875m) as well as another AC bailout.
I like your idea on the purse supplement loan it makes a lot of sense and as you mentioned the collateral makes for a low loan to value loan. Once the OTW's are up and running(about 12-18 months for each one)that revenue stream will keep the horse racing industry going for a long long time.

[Robert Goren]

There is a lot guilt by association when it comes to horsemen. It would really help if the good ones would take a public stand against the bad apples instead of standing quietly by or even defending them when they are caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

[Robert Goren]

The Governor assembled a special panel that didn't bring up the issue of the OTW build-outs to insure a solid revenue stream for the horse racing industry, instead they gave recommendations on how to get rid of racing and throw more monies into the Xanadu project($875m) as well as another AC bailout.
I like your idea on the purse supplement loan it makes a lot of sense and as you mentioned the collateral makes for a low loan to value loan. Once the OTW's are up and running(about 12-18 months for each one)that revenue stream will keep the horse racing industry going for a long long time. I don't know how wise it to bank on something that has had mixed bag of success(to say the least) in other states. NJ has one successful OTW and it is assumed that they will all be as successful. Something that has proven not to be true in other states. When the idea of OTWs or OTBs was raised many years ago, I thought they would be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but sadly I was wrong. At best, they have turn out as general rule to be a very small piece of the puzzle. At worst, they have as with NYCOTB a determent.

[alhattab]

I don't know how wise it to bank on something that has had mixed bag of success(to say the least) in other states. NJ has one successful OTW and it is assumed that they will all be as successful. Something that has proven not to be true in other states. When the idea of OTWs or OTBs was raised many years ago, I thought they would be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but sadly I was wrong. At best, they have turn out as general rule to be a very small piece of the puzzle. At worst, they have as with NYCOTB a determent.

I've never heard someone suggest all the OTWs would be as successful as Woodbridge. In fact, the other two (Vineland and Tom's River, run by Greenwood/Penn National partnership) I'm sure are not. You cite what is widely considered to be one of the worst managed enterprises in all of racing as why OTWs cannot be successful. I don't know for sure, but I think they do reasoanbly well in Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Illinois and other states.

[Canarsie]

I don't know how wise it to bank on something that has had mixed bag of success(to say the least) in other states. NJ has one successful OTW and it is assumed that they will all be as successful.



Favorites in Toms River does quite well just not as much as the Fords operation. For your reading pleasure so you think twice before saying it's only one. The fact that's it's in southern central NJ means it doesn't get the press that the one up north does.

http://blogs.app.com/capitolquickies/2010/12/23/legal-bookies-in-toms-river-vineland-dodge-challenge-remain-open/

[Robert Goren]

The NJ OTWs may or may not make money. I think it is folly to count on them to cover the losses of a race track. Their profits (if they have any) should provide a supplement to an already profitable racing operation. That the point I was trying to make. There seems to be an idea that OTWs can more than make up the losses of a race track. I am not sure that there is place where that is happening. The goal should be to make race tracks profitable even if there was no OTWs. I don't see a whole lot people involved in NJ racing wanting to do that. It just seems like they just keep looking for one outside source of revenue after another instead of addressing the problems of NJ race tracks that keep them from being profitable. In fairness to NJ, they are not the only place that is taking that approach.

[The Hawk]

It just seems like they just keep looking for one outside source of revenue after another instead of addressing the problems of NJ race tracks that keep them from being profitable. In fairness to NJ, they are not the only place that is taking that approach.

They ARE addressing the problem. The problem is that what's keeping them from being profitable is that the five surrounding states all have slots and they don't.

In your world, you think they should be able to overcome that, but it's absolutely impossible for them -- or for any business, for that matter -- to survive long-term in the current situation they're in.

[onefast99]

The NJ OTWs may or may not make money. I think it is folly to count on them to cover the losses of a race track. Their profits (if they have any) should provide a supplement to an already profitable racing operation. That the point I was trying to make. There seems to be an idea that OTWs can more than make up the losses of a race track. I am not sure that there is place where that is happening. The goal should be to make race tracks profitable even if there was no OTWs. I don't see a whole lot people involved in NJ racing wanting to do that. It just seems like they just keep looking for one outside source of revenue after another instead of addressing the problems of NJ race tracks that keep them from being profitable. In fairness to NJ, they are not the only place that is taking that approach.
According to the numbers I saw the Favorites in Woodbridge made $7m last year. No one knows if any other OTW in NJ can duplicate those numbers, but having no other ones built doesn't help the situation at all either.

[Kelso]

Kelso,

You must be pulling everybody leg, because these posts of yours can't be real.

Only a jokester or the most gullible could believe any of the junk that you are spieling out of your brain.

________
David-LVSurely you're not sufficiently foolish to think that I should give two damns about your assessment of my opinions. But, just to be sure ... I don't.

[Kelso]

those same people who have had little or no say in the benefits and huge tax breaks Atlantic City Casinos are getting that is hurting NJ taxpayers more than the racing industry ever could . Your turn, big shot. Cite the proof of your absurd claim.

Show us how many dollars the taxpayers have spent VERSUS HOW MANY TAX DOLLARS THE CASINOS HAVE PAID that has netted out to "hurting NJ taxpayers."

Just because the casinos have turned off the welfare-for-horsemen spigot (and $175+ million still isn't enough to satisfy your greed, is it) doesn't give you the right to lie about them "hurting NJ taxpayers."

If you think they should pay more, write your Assemblyman. But that doesn't mean that what they actually have paid/received to date has been a loss to the taxpayers.

(BTW, what's your preference: The casinos pay a heavier tax ... or they keep the same tax rate they have and continue paying hush money to you and your cronies?)

So prove how they've "HURT" taxpayers ... or stop with the desperate lies already.


To deny that is pure stupidity on your part.Whether or not I deny it ... and whether or not it is, indeed, "stupid" to do so ... is completely irrelevant.

Of course, that's just what you intended, isn't it? You are simply desperate to change the subject because you know you cannot present a cogent rationale for the state to allow you to get your greedy hooves on other peoples' ... and ultimately taxpayers' ... money.

I'm going to continue returning the discussion to it's root premise, and the reason for all your whining; which is to say ... you can't make enough money (or any at all?) to satisfy you in your own business, so you expect welfare from those businesses and taxpayers who are making enough to take care of themselves. Stop envying other peoples' success and do something profitable ON YOUR OWN. If you can't, then I suggest you get out of racing; learn to live without the owners' box and start paying for track parking and clubhouse admission.


The only way they will not have a large part in the decision is if both tracks are leased out to private individuals and with time slots will make their way into the Meadowlands and Monmouth Park.Under current provisions of the New Jersey Constitution, and regardless of track ownership, there is absolutely NO way the voters will not have the final say on satisfying your greed. Absent those circumstances in which New Jersey Democrats manage to trade in political favors with the imitation justices on the State Supreme Court, constitutional referenda are unavoidable.

I suggest you have somebody read ... and explain ... the state constitution to you. (And, once again, YOU typed "The NJSEA did have the power to get slots into the racetracks..." That is entirely untrue; so you either lied or ... yet again ... illuminated your colossal ignorance.)

[Robert Goren]

They ARE addressing the problem. The problem is that what's keeping them from being profitable is that the five surrounding states all have slots and they don't.

In your world, you think they should be able to overcome that, but it's absolutely impossible for them -- or for any business, for that matter -- to survive long-term in the current situation they're in. Money from slots only effect the purses and somewhat the abilty to get horses. It does not attract handicappers. Race tracks need to atract handicappers, not slot players. There is one thing I have learned from the NJ racing posts. Horsemen have no idea what will make me(the handicapper) want to bet on a horse race. They haven't even shown any interest to trying to learn that. I and others try to tell you what we want, but all we hear about is slots. All that brings is higher purses for basically the same horses. We are not stupid. We know cheap horses when we see them no matter what kind of purse they run for. I get the feeling that the horsemen would like to get rid of the handicappers entirely and run their races for the money they get from the slot players.

[Kelso]

Based on your posts, I would say that your definition of "dislike" and most others' definition of "hate" is probably about the same.

If true, then I consider that to be "others'" problem. (I'll speculate that they probably deflate the meanings of other weighty words ... such as "hero" ... as well.)


Your "dislike" of horsemen hurts all of your arguments and your general credibility as well IMO. It shows a huge bias coming into any discussion on and colors each one of your arguments, which given your "dislike" of horsemen, will always be weighted against them, will it not?Please re-read what I wrote. I did not say I dislike horsemen, per se. I said I dislike people who try to put their hands in my pocket. Horsemen who demand higher takeout rates and assorted subsidies (slots/OTBs/etc) do precisely that. But do understand that I dislike them as pick-pockets, not as owners/trainers of race horses. Big difference, no?


The other issue with your blanket "dislike" of horsemen is that you are using an incredibly broad stroke to describe who horsemen are and how they behave.....I know and am familiar with a many of them and your negative view of them is way off in many cases.Again, see above. I am not painting horsemen with a broad stroke. I am painting welfare mavens, actual and aspiring, with that brush.

I, too, know and like some horsemen. Their hands are all visibly outside of my pockets.

[onefast99]

I suggest you have somebody read ... and explain ... the state constitution to you. (And, once again, YOU typed "The NJSEA did have the power to get slots into the racetracks..." That is entirely untrue; so you either lied or ... yet again ... illuminated your colossal ignorance.)

They have the wherewithall to put the slots at the tracks once the NJ voters have their say. Nothing special about that the NJSEA has taken on many projects. You just like twisting everything to fit your agenda.

[onefast99]

Surely you're not sufficiently foolish to think that I should give two damns about your assessment of my opinions. But, just to be sure ... I don't.

As I said earlier and all on this forum would agree, you are all bark and no bite. Will I see you at Monmouth this summer picketing the track because the horseman are taking "money out of your pocket" that is a good one. Once again all you do is resort to personal attacks on anyone that disagrees with you in every post or thread you are involved in.

[alhattab]

Robert- you wrote: "The NJ OTWs may or may not make money. I think it is folly to count on them to cover the losses of a race track. Their profits (if they have any) should provide a supplement to an already profitable racing operation. That the point I was trying to make. There seems to be an idea that OTWs can more than make up the losses of a race track. I am not sure that there is place where that is happening. The goal should be to make race tracks profitable even if there was no OTWs. I don't see a whole lot people involved in NJ racing wanting to do that. It just seems like they just keep looking for one outside source of revenue after another instead of addressing the problems of NJ race tracks that keep them from being profitable. In fairness to NJ, they are not the only place that is taking that approach."

The first to NJ OTWs built were in Woodbridge (about 25 miles north of Monmouth Park) and Tom's River (about 30 miles south of Monmouth Park). While these OTWs, particularly Woodbridge, drew new handle into the state, they also picked off customers that would have driven to Monmouth Park. In these cases, the revenue shifted to the OTWs top line, but the expenses, most significantly purses, do not shift away from the racetrack. To me, it doesn't make sense to look at the OTWs and racetracks independent of one another. If done right, they are integrated entities. Now, whether Monmouth Park itself needs to react to the new reality by cutting expenses in certain places is a different debate. One could reasonably argue that they must. If the NFL made all of its money purely from TV, would they play in 80,000 seat stadiums?



Money from slots only effect the purses and somewhat the abilty to get horses. It does not attract handicappers. Race tracks need to atract handicappers, not slot players. There is one thing I have learned from the NJ racing posts. Horsemen have no idea what will make me(the handicapper) want to bet on a horse race. They haven't even shown any interest to trying to learn that. I and others try to tell you what we want, but all we hear about is slots. All that brings is higher purses for basically the same horses. We are not stupid. We know cheap horses when we see them no matter what kind of purse they run for. I get the feeling that the horsemen would like to get rid of the handicappers entirely and run their races for the money they get from the slot players.

The above was a reaction to a comment that the slots in surrounding states has hurt Monmouth's profitability. Doesn't the attractiveness of purses in PA and Delaware negatively affect the quality of racing and wagering opportunities at Monmouth Park, thus resulting in likely lower top lines? Before slots, Delaware was paying $80k/day and Philly was paying $120k/day, while Monmouth was around $180k/day. Now the whole picture has changed. Philly's purses may cause a horseman to run there during the winter rather than lay up to get ready for the summer, thus reducing the horse inventory for Monmouth's meet. Delaware and Philly both directly compete for horses with Monmouth during the summer, except in August when Philly closes. Before they weren't competing for the same horses. Philly shippers never ran well at Monmouth, and shippers between the tracks were rare. Delaware wasn't even considered. Both factors, among others, are how the slots in nearby states negatively affect Monmouth's ability to provide the type of betting product we want, and thus negatively affects revenue.

It is ironic for me to live near Monmouth Park, but to think the most attractive betting opportunities occur during the winter because there is less competition for horses. How else to explain the quality of racing at Tampa Bay Downs considering relatively paltry purses?

[Robert Goren]

On Tampa Bay which I bet quite a bit. The quality of horses running there is pretty poor. But they do a good job of getting fairly large fields of pretty well matched horses. They are attractive to people like me who bet over the internet. I don't know how much of a cut the track(and the horsemen) get from that, but I suspect it is pretty small. Yesterday at TB, a crowd of 3400 bet about 250k on track, but they got a handle of over 4 million from out of state wagering. The on track numbers stink. The off track numbers aren't to bad, but if they aren't getting much of a cut it doesn't matter. Trying find out those numbers is impossible. I do know that when places like CA or IL try to demand 5 or 6 % for their signal the ADWs get really upset. To me looking at it from a business point of view and not as a better, tracks have get people on site and betting there to be really successful. A on site dollar wagered is worth at least 5 or 6 wagered over the internet or from an out of state simulcast center.

[onefast99]

I've never heard someone suggest all the OTWs would be as successful as Woodbridge. In fact, the other two (Vineland and Tom's River, run by Greenwood/Penn National partnership) I'm sure are not. You cite what is widely considered to be one of the worst managed enterprises in all of racing as why OTWs cannot be successful. I don't know for sure, but I think they do reasoanbly well in Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Illinois and other states.




By not building out the OTW's in NJ it leaves many bettors looking for a place to go, some have ended up at the NY tracks and the few OTB's that remain open and others have headed to Parx and Delaware. The NJSEA had its chance to expand the OTW business model but once it was denied in several NJ towns it seemed as if they stopped trying.
The horse racing industry and related businesses generate over $780m a year in economic activity. There are over 13000 jobs associated with this industry based on this those few who think the horse racing industry will just fold up shop and leave are sadly mistaken. The last 10 years NJ was sleeping when it came to planning for the future of horse racing and gaming in the state, now it rests on the Governor and other elected officials to come up with solutions.

[The_Knight_Sky]

The last 10 years NJ was sleeping when it came to planning
for the future of horse racing and gaming in the state,
now it rests on the Governor and other elected officials to come up with solutions.




Let's just hope it's a series of long-term solutions for the racetracks.
A new business model that works even without the "benefits" of slots in the short-term.

If it isn't....
It will be a death sentence for live racing in New Jersey. http://i51.tinypic.com/mvor9z.gif

[The Hawk]

Money from slots only effect the purses and somewhat the abilty to get horses. It does not attract handicappers. Race tracks need to atract handicappers, not slot players.

This is the point, though. Money from slots attracts better horses, which attracts handicappers. That's why they need slots, they're competing with five states for a finite number of decent horses.

There is one thing I have learned from the NJ racing posts. Horsemen have no idea what will make me(the handicapper) want to bet on a horse race. They haven't even shown any interest to trying to learn that. I and others try to tell you what we want, but all we hear about is slots. All that brings is higher purses for basically the same horses.

Last year's Monmouth meet featured high-quality racing. You may be talking about the statebred races when you say the same horses, and you'd be right about that. Otherwise, the races drew a lot of horses from the surrounding area, and that's what made for good quality racing.

This area is not like all others. I too like Tampa, but part of the reason they're successful is they don't have to compete for horses.

[Robert Goren]

This is the point, though. Money from slots attracts better horses, which attracts handicappers. That's why they need slots, they're competing with five states for a finite number of decent horses.



Last year's Monmouth meet featured high-quality racing. You may be talking about the statebred races when you say the same horses, and you'd be right about that. Otherwise, the races drew a lot of horses from the surrounding area, and that's what made for good quality racing.

This area is not like all others. I too like Tampa, but part of the reason they're successful is they don't have to compete for horses.I looked at Monmouth Park cards all summer long. I bet one race. The races they ran there last summer were unbettable to me. Maybe they were ok for people who like to splash around in exotics but I could not find a horse at a price I liked in the win pool. In my opinion they did a very poor job matching up the horses there into playable races. I did most of wagering last summer at the NYRA tracks and Delaware. I am now betting TB a lot. I seldom find a race to pass. At MP I could not find a race to bet. TB has as general rule has a lot poorer quality horses, but better betting races. At MP it appeared to me that the races were written for the horsemen. At TB the races are written for the handicappers. All this is beside the point. Last year MP had a golden chance to build a future for horse racing in NJ by doing somethings to attract betters, but they decide that higher purses would attract more and better horses which in turn would attract the handicappers. They were wrong. Or a least they were not right enough to save NJ racing from the mess it is in today. The lack of horses is not the problem, it is the lack of handicappers. Places like Penn National, Parx and Mountaineer have slots, higher purses and plenty of horses, but their handle stinks.

[onefast99]

I looked at Monmouth Park cards all summer long. I bet one race. The races they ran there last summer were unbettable to me. Maybe they were ok for people who like to splash around in exotics but I could not find a horse at a price I liked in the win pool. In my opinion they did a very poor job matching up the horses there into playable races. I did most of wagering last summer at the NYRA tracks and Delaware. I am now betting TB a lot. I seldom find a race to pass. At MP I could not find a race to bet. TB has as general rule has a lot poorer quality horses, but better betting races. At MP it appeared to me that the races were written for the horsemen. At TB the races are written for the handicappers. All this is beside the point. Last year MP had a golden chance to build a future for horse racing in NJ by doing somethings to attract betters, but they decide that higher purses would attract more and better horses which in turn would attract the handicappers. They were wrong. Or a least they were not right enough to save NJ racing from the mess it is in today. The lack of horses is not the problem, it is the lack of handicappers. Places like Penn National, Parx and Mountaineer have slots, higher purses and plenty of horses, but their handle stinks.

MP had a very solid meet from May thru early September. The lower level $5k claimers saw a lot of drop downs and many shippers and a lot of claims. The allowance races and maiden special weights were very well put together. Mike Dempsey the racing secretary did a great job. There was even a few stars amongst the NJ breds who went on to win later in the year including goombada guska who won the Stymie and finished 2nd in the Bald Eagle at Aqueduct and partyallnightlong who finished 3rd in the Rutgers at MP.

[Robert Goren]

MP had a very solid meet from May thru early September. The lower level $5k claimers saw a lot of drop downs and many shippers and a lot of claims. The allowance races and maiden special weights were very well put together. Mike Dempsey the racing secretary did a great job. There was even a few stars amongst the NJ breds who went on to win later in the year including goombada guska who won the Stymie and finished 2nd in the Bald Eagle at Aqueduct and partyallnightlong who finished 3rd in the Rutgers at MP. I did not see that and neither did enough other handicappers. You can spout that kind of message all you want, but it is not going get people to bet on MP races. Horsemen and track management need to start listening to handicappers on what they kind of races they want to bet on and stop trying to tell us what is good bet. I must have looked at 20 cards at MP last summer and found one bet. This winter at TB I have a hard time finding a race to pass. A lot of shippers and lots of claimed horses do not make a race bettable. In fact, quite the opposite is true. It may have been a great meet for horsemen, but from a better's point of view it was not. If it had been, they wouldn't be trying to figure out a way run this year. You can't run a race meet without betters. Too few betters, not too few horses was the problem with NJ racing last year.

[ronsmac]

MP had a very solid meet from May thru early September. The lower level $5k claimers saw a lot of drop downs and many shippers and a lot of claims. The allowance races and maiden special weights were very well put together. Mike Dempsey the racing secretary did a great job. There was even a few stars amongst the NJ breds who went on to win later in the year including goombada guska who won the Stymie and finished 2nd in the Bald Eagle at Aqueduct and partyallnightlong who finished 3rd in the Rutgers at MP.
I agree, it was a phenomenal meet last yr. The previous 3 or 4 yrs Monmouth had become unbettable with 6 and 7 horse fields being the norm. Handle and field size went through the roof last yr. Hopefully they will run another 3 day a week meet, and the Governor doesn't veto the Casino money allready approved by the legislature.

[The Hawk]

I did not see that and neither did enough other handicappers. You can spout that kind of message all you want, but it is not going get people to bet on MP races.

Do you feel like if you keep saying this at some point it will somehow become fact? This is from the official release:

In 2009, Thoroughbred racing at Monmouth Park and the Meadowlands totaled $354,867,156. In 2010, with nearly 50% less dates, that number reached $477,375,167.

You may not have liked it, for a variety of reasons (personal and otherwise), but others did. LOTS of others. Yes, they gave away too much money in purses. With a year of experience behind them, given the chance, they can hopefully figure out the right formula to survive.

[Robert Goren]

Do you feel like if you keep saying this at some point it will somehow become fact? This is from the official release:

In 2009, Thoroughbred racing at Monmouth Park and the Meadowlands totaled $354,867,156. In 2010, with nearly 50% less dates, that number reached $477,375,167.

You may not have liked it, for a variety of reasons (personal and otherwise), but others did. LOTS of others. Yes, they gave away too much money in purses. With a year of experience behind them, given the chance, they can hopefully figure out the right formula to survive. The bottom line is that they lost at least the 30 million they got from the casinos and probably more. The year before they lost 8 million or so. If you are losing money head over heels like they did last year, you are not doing something right. The more money they spent the more money they lost. Every increased dollar in spending brought back only about 98 cents in revenue to the track. That is sad truth. The thing that is shocking is that the fall with only weekend racing and smaller purses almost made made a profit (or did if you do some fancy bookkeeping). Something similar in the summer could stand a chance if the NJTHA would allow it to happen. But at this point they are dead set against it.

[Robert Goren]

I agree, it was a phenomenal meet last yr. The previous 3 or 4 yrs Monmouth had become unbettable with 6 and 7 horse fields being the norm. Handle and field size went through the roof last yr. Hopefully they will run another 3 day a week meet, and the Governor doesn't veto the Casino money allready approved by the legislature. Spending a dollar to bring in 98 cents in takeout revenue is not good business practice. It was only a phenomenal meet for the horsemen. They ran basically the same 6 and 7 horse fields with a couple extra horses thrown running for only an appearance fee. The also rans took almost no money in the pools so their effect on making the race bettable was small. The facts are that they did nothing other than that to encourage handicappers to bet their races. All that money went to the horsemen. I have said it before, but I will say it again. The main problem that NJ suffers is from a shortage of handicappers. Until they address that problem head on and not through back door means like increasing purses, they will continue to have problems and will be looking for outside revenue to cover their expenses.

[onefast99]

I did not see that and neither did enough other handicappers. You can spout that kind of message all you want, but it is not going get people to bet on MP races. Horsemen and track management need to start listening to handicappers on what they kind of races they want to bet on and stop trying to tell us what is good bet. I must have looked at 20 cards at MP last summer and found one bet. This winter at TB I have a hard time finding a race to pass. A lot of shippers and lots of claimed horses do not make a race bettable. In fact, quite the opposite is true. It may have been a great meet for horsemen, but from a better's point of view it was not. If it had been, they wouldn't be trying to figure out a way run this year. You can't run a race meet without betters. Too few betters, not too few horses was the problem with NJ racing last year.
Because you didn't think the racing was better means you were in the minority as per the numerous articles and comments about the 2010 racing season as a whole was a great product for all involved. The issue with NJ racing right now has nothing to do with getting bettors to the track or to wager on the races, it is a financial issue and the desire of the Governor to have bidders come up with their own plan on how to run the track and the OTW's thru an RFP. I think you are very confused one has nothing to do with the other. You have the right not to bet MP or any other track you desire, but get the facts straight before you post.

[Robert Goren]

More head in the sand by you. The facts are pretty simple. If the betters had supported NJ racing last in the numbers needed to run a profitable operation, they would not searching for someone to takeover now. Any plan must include away to attract handicappers in large enough numbers to become profitable. I haven't heard anything about that. All I hear about is trying to get money for purses from outside sources and more of the same money losing ideas that put NJ racing in this boat to start out with. I know that the last thing a horseman want to do is think about the better. But until they do, horse racing will continue on the road to extinction.
You can quote all the articles you want about how great NJ racing was last year, but the bottom line is that it did not bring enough revenue from betting to cover its expenses. When it does that, then you can crow all you want to.

[The Hawk]

You can quote all the articles you want about how great NJ racing was last year, but the bottom line is that it did not bring enough revenue from betting to cover its expenses. When it does that, then you can crow all you want to.

It's never going to cover expenses in the current set-up. There's not a racetrack in the country that could, between the slots in every surrounding state and the OTBs in surrounding towns.

[Canarsie]

The bottom line is that they lost at least the 30 million they got from the casinos and probably more. The year before they lost 8 million or so. If you are losing money head over heels like they did last year, you are not doing something right.


Amazing then that there are at least 8 bidders to lease the place and now the Governor (he said " I want out of the horse racing business".) doesn't even want to sell it.


Please give me the financials that they lost more than 30 million. Talk is cheap, facts produce credibility.

[onefast99]

More head in the sand by you. The facts are pretty simple. If the betters had supported NJ racing last in the numbers needed to run a profitable operation, they would not searching for someone to takeover now. Any plan must include away to attract handicappers in large enough numbers to become profitable. I haven't heard anything about that. All I hear about is trying to get money for purses from outside sources and more of the same money losing ideas that put NJ racing in this boat to start out with. I know that the last thing a horseman want to do is think about the better. But until they do, horse racing will continue on the road to extinction.
You can quote all the articles you want about how great NJ racing was last year, but the bottom line is that it did not bring enough revenue from betting to cover its expenses. When it does that, then you can crow all you want to.
Hold on Mr G, NJ racing made a terrible decision to sign on the dotted line and accept any monies from the casinos. Had they planned for slots, like Parx and Delaware and NY did(NY money will be added to purses beginning September 2011)this conversation wouldn't be taking place. The fact is NJ racing cannot support itself without growing its existing revenue stream which is the internet gambling platform known as 4njbets and the build out of all 5 OTW's. The gambling dollars are out there but many elect to go to other states and bet. On another note NJ has failed to grow their casino industry, no one wants to go to AC anymore because there are casinos much closer to them(the Sands in Bethlehem Pa, Parx in Bensalem Pa a new casino being built in center city Philly etc etc)if you don't think that those gambling dollars make a difference in making or breaking either industry you do indeed have no knowledge of the current situation in NJ. I won't lamblast you on the numbers you post from time to time on the losses that you think MP had in 2010, not many tracks make money on the live racing.

[onefast99]

Amazing then that there are at least 8 bidders to lease the place and now the Governor (he said " I want out of the horse racing business".) doesn't even want to sell it.


Please give me the financials that they lost more than 30 million. Talk is cheap, facts produce credibility.
The racing will still take place and run by the NJSEA until the new suitor has taken over per the RFP that date is June 1st 2011.

[ronsmac]

I'm not sure why there is all this arguing about Monmouth's 2010 meet. The bettors loved it last yr and was without a doubt the best meet they've had since the 80's.

[onefast99]

I'm not sure why there is all this arguing about Monmouth's 2010 meet. The bettors loved it last yr and was without a doubt the best meet they've had since the 80's.\
It is one individuals assessment of the meet, one who has a huge problem with the track takeouts and understanding that tracks do indeed lose money on live racing. I wouldn't take anything Mr Goren says as being of the opinion of the majority when it comes to Monmouth Park.

[Kelso]

I suggest you have somebody read ... and explain ... the state constitution to you. (And, once again, YOU typed "The NJSEA did have the power to get slots into the racetracks..." That is entirely untrue; so you either lied or ... yet again ... illuminated your colossal ignorance.)

They have the wherewithall to put the slots at the tracks once the NJ voters have their say. Nothing special about that the NJSEA has taken on many projects. You just like twisting everything to fit your agenda.You typed NOTHING AT ALL about "once the NJ voters have their say." All you typed on the subject was "The NJSEA did have the power to get slots into the racetracks..." You didn't mention their hands being tied by the voters until I called you on it.

That's a standard tactic of yours. Say something that's untrue, half-true or grossly misleading (like your $650 million NJSEA "payments" nonsense) and hope that nobody knows (or cares) better.

[Kelso]

As I said earlier and all on this forum would agree, you are all bark and no bite.

You've repeated yourself many times on this forum ... and to similar effect: You've demonstrated that to take what you state fact is the very definition of foolishness. You're selfish demands have been revealed for what they are, and every effort you've made to support them has failed.


all you do is resort to personal attacks on anyone that disagrees with you in every post or thread you are involved in.All I do is refute ... with the luxory of PERTINENT facts and unassailable logic ... your pathetic cries for welfare at great expense to NJ's taxpayers.

[Kelso]

those few who think the horse racing industry will just fold up shop and leave are sadly mistaken.Great!!! Wonderful!!! End of debate! The horse industry will survive; and I, personally, wish all its participants the very best ... provided they don't receive any subsidies from the taxpayers' public assets.



now it rests on the Governor and other elected officials to come up with solutions.Oh, there ya go again! And just when you were showing signs of growing up and accepting both reality and responsibility. :(

Why must the state come up with the solutions to horse racing's problems? The state didn't cause ANY of them.

You get free stables to train and race your horses. The state operates two very good racetracks ... at a COST of MILLIONS per year. Why isn't that ENOUGH for you?

[Kelso]

Last year's Monmouth meet featured high-quality racing.

<snip>

Otherwise, the races drew a lot of horses from the surrounding area, and that's what made for good quality racing.

Last year's Monmouth meet cost NJ taxpayers millions of dollars; this, in spite of $30 million subsidized by the casino industry.

Perhaps the quality was better ... but the competitiveness was little improved. That was largely due to the $1500 per starter welfare checks.

Horse players get value from competitive racing. More than two-thirds of Monmouth's winners last year paid below 5-1.

[Kelso]

The issue with NJ racing right now has nothing to do with getting bettors to the track or to wager on the races, Stated as only a horseman would. You're the reason racing is failing in NJ, Onefast ... you and others like you who ask only "how much more can I grab for myself before the jig is up?"

[Kelso]

NJ racing cannot support itself without growing its existing revenue stream which is the internet gambling platform known as 4njbets and the build out of all 5 OTW's.NJ racing's revenue stream should grow only from the HANDLE INCREASES attributable to the ADW and the OTWs. MTH and MED get signal fees from each to put in your demanding pocket.

The PROFITS from those enterprises, after paying the track fees, belong ... in their entirety ... to the taxpayers of New Jersey. Those PROFITS belong nowhere near your pockets.




On another note NJ has failed to grow their casino industryIt's not the STATE's job to "grow" ANY industry. Do you understand nothing at all about free enterprise capitalism or do you simply not believe in it when Welfare-for-Horsemen is threatened?

[Kelso]

I'm not sure why there is all this arguing about Monmouth's 2010 meet. The bettors loved it last yr and was without a doubt the best meet they've had since the 80's.Despite all the alleged "love," the meet still lost a LOT of the taxpayers' money. That's why all this arguing. Horsemen want taxpayers to not know very much about the true source of all the welfare for which they whine.

[Kelso]

\I wouldn't take anything Mr Goren says as being of the opinion of the majority when it comes to Monmouth Park.Pretty loose and easy with the words there, Onefast. The "majority" of WHOM, exactly? Of your horsemen pals? (Surely you're not gonna fall back on that lame argument that polls showing support for slots means they show support for Horseman Welfare as well, are you?)

[Robert Goren]

Stated as only a horseman would. You're the reason racing is failing in NJ, Onefast ... you and others like you who ask only "how much more can I grab for myself before the jig is up?"That certainly is the impression that the horsemen are leaving. I not seen anything from any horseman to make me think that they think they are involved in a viable business. All they seems to be saying how can we get some else to give us money because we can't make it on our own.

[onefast99]

Pretty loose and easy with the words there, Onefast. The "majority" of WHOM, exactly? Of your horsemen pals? (Surely you're not gonna fall back on that lame argument that polls showing support for slots means they show support for Horseman Welfare as well, are you?)
We are talking about the fact that many bettors enjoyed last years MP meet as opossed to other years when it was tough to bet at this track. I don't know why you would be throwing in the polls or any other non-sense to once again draw attention to yourself, further proof you are unable to have an intelligent conversation about this track.

[onefast99]

That certainly is the impression that the horsemen are leaving. I not seen anything from any horseman to make me think that they think they are involved in a viable business. All they seems to be saying how can we get some else to give us money because we can't make it on our own.
Can you supply a link supporting your riduculous claims about the horseman going anywhere? Neither you or kelso have a clue, and furthermore Mr Goren you are once again involved in a topic that you have no idea what you are talking about. Stay with the takeout issues.

[onefast99]

Last year's Monmouth meet cost NJ taxpayers millions of dollars; this, in spite of $30 million subsidized by the casino industry.

Perhaps the quality was better ... but the competitiveness was little improved. That was largely due to the $1500 per starter welfare checks.

Horse players get value from competitive racing. More than two-thirds of Monmouth's winners last year paid below 5-1.
Show me the numbers. You won't find them but you continue to state how much the NJ taxpayers lost. Another statement backed by nothing, once again all bark and no bite. The good thing is you have a running mate in Goren to get your cause to the Governor and maybe he can help you.

[Canarsie]

What else would you expect from Kelso but drivel. Look at his logo it states boycott Tracknet which was dissolved in 2010 :bang:

[Robert Goren]

If NJ made money last year, why are they having such a hard time getting someone to take it over? You know if it was easy it would been a done deal already. Why are the horsemen trying to get slots? Why are they trying to force ADWs on places that don't want them? Why aren't the horsemen willing to take a cut in their share of the takeout to encourage more people to bet on NJ racing? Common NJ horsemen at least answer the last question. Ca racing is dying because of a boycott over takeout. Yet NJ racing is refusing to even consider cutting takeout to get those CA betters. Why is that?

[onefast99]

If NJ made money last year, why are they having such a hard time getting someone to take it over? You know if it was easy it would been a done deal already. Why are the horsemen trying to get slots? Why are they trying to force ADWs on places that don't want them? Why aren't the horsemen willing to take a cut in their share of the takeout to encourage more people to bet on NJ racing? Common NJ horsemen at least answer the last question. Ca racing is dying because of a boycott over takeout. Yet NJ racing is refusing to even consider cutting takeout to get those CA betters. Why is that?
Stop the crap. The NJSEA put out the RFP(request for proposal)on March 2nd 2011. This first step was to insure that the NJSEA had sufficient interest in MP and the 5 otw's as well as the 50% share of the internet wagering vehicle 4njbets.com. Those who expressed interest had to send a $25k deposit in order to receive the due diligence. There were 8 checks received by George Zahn the vice president-purchase and risk management of the NJSEA that is more than anyone expected. The bidders have until the end of March to send their deposit checks, as of this writing there are 8 bidders. Once the winning bid is selected by the NJSEA that entity will have until June 1st to get their team into the track and begin operating it. The NJSEA will run the track from opening day until the successful bidder can transition in and is comfortable at the reins. The OTW in Woodbridge(Favorites)will be under the control of the new bidder in the same exact fashion. The new OTW's must show some sort of progress in building them out by January 2012, they do not need to be built by then but progress towards their build out must be made. Each one will take 12-18 months to build out.
Mr Goren, takeout is an entirely different issue that the new bidder must deal with and I am sure if they need a voice of reasoning they will reach out to you.

[onefast99]

Despite all the alleged "love," the meet still lost a LOT of the taxpayers' money. That's why all this arguing. Horsemen want taxpayers to not know very much about the true source of all the welfare for which they whine.
The monies they received over the last several years were directly from the casinos to keep MP and the Meadowlands from putting slots in and further diminishing their profits. Those monies were never earmarked for the NJ taxpayers, but if you say so it must be true.

[onefast99]

It's not the STATE's job to "grow" ANY industry. Do you understand nothing at all about free enterprise capitalism or do you simply not believe in it when Welfare-for-Horsemen is threatened?

Further proof you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to NJ racing. The NJSEA took over MP in 1986, it is state run. The NJSEA had 10 years to begin the buildouts of the 5 licenses, one was built Favorites in Woodbridge and opened October 17th 2007 a week before the Breeders Cup at MP. During the process of finding other locations they met opposition along the way from several towns who didn't want an OTW in their neighborhood. Now the Governor who is under an extreme amount of pressure has elected at the 12th hour to find someone interested in leasing, not buying, MP. You can shout from the rooftops all you want about free enterprise capitalism but before you make another ass out of yourself please realize you are dealing with a state run agency who works like any other government agency, on their own clock.

[Canarsie]

Why aren't the horsemen willing to take a cut in their share of the takeout to encourage more people to bet on NJ racing?



While I would love reduced takeout do you suffer from amnesia? Seems to me lots more bet on NJ racing last year just not enough for your personal agenda.

http://www.monmouthpark.com/News.aspx?id=4121

Btw how come I don't ever see you hammer Pennsylvania or Florida racing? Your beloved Tampa has higher takeout for WPS and exactas than Monmouth why are you playing there? How come your not expanding your crusade there? :bang:

[onefast99]

While I would love reduced takeout do you suffer from amnesia? Seems to me lots more bet on NJ racing last year just not enough for your personal agenda.

http://www.monmouthpark.com/News.aspx?id=4121

Btw how come I don't ever see you hammer Pennsylvania or Florida racing? Your beloved Tampa has higher takeout for WPS and exactas than Monmouth why are you playing there? How come your not expanding your crusade there? :bang:
http://th165.photobucket.com/albums/u55/BJ_BOBBI_JO9/Sports%20and%20activities%20and%20actions%20games% 20related/th_1_4_111.gif (http://media.photobucket.com/image/horse%20smiley/BJ_BOBBI_JO9/Sports%20and%20activities%20and%20actions%20games% 20related/1_4_111.gif?o=62) I think both Bob and kelso are poor sports who have lost a lot betting on horses.

[GaryG]

While I would love reduced takeout do you suffer from amnesia? Seems to me lots more bet on NJ racing last year just not enough for your personal agenda.

http://www.monmouthpark.com/News.aspx?id=4121

Btw how come I don't ever see you hammer Pennsylvania or Florida racing? Your beloved Tampa has higher takeout for WPS and exactas than Monmouth why are you playing there? How come your not expanding your crusade there? :bang:It may have to do with who the governor is and Robert's feelings about him. I dislike Gov Moonbeam intensely, but I will continue to bet Santa Anita.

[BarnieClockerbigal]

I looked at Monmouth Park cards all summer long. I bet one race.

You were in the minority. Monmouth Park offered very attractive wagering last year.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2010/november/22/monmouth-business.aspx

"For the year, the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority conducted 71 live programs at Monmouth and realized a 25.7% increase in total handle at $477,375,167, despite racing 69 fewer dates."

Wagering was UP 25.7% all sources handle on NJSEA thoroughbred dates.

Allan

[BarnieClockerbigal]

Horse players get value from competitive racing. More than two-thirds of Monmouth's winners last year paid below 5-1.

and how does that compare to comparable meets last year at

saratoga
del mar
Arlington park

Those are facts and figures that I would love to see

median field size for each of those tracks in 2010
median win payout for each of those tracks in 2010

Lets compare apples to apples.

Betcha monmouth blows the 3 tracks out of the water.

Allan

[Robert Goren]

While I would love reduced takeout do you suffer from amnesia? Seems to me lots more bet on NJ racing last year just not enough for your personal agenda.

http://www.monmouthpark.com/News.aspx?id=4121

Btw how come I don't ever see you hammer Pennsylvania or Florida racing? Your beloved Tampa has higher takeout for WPS and exactas than Monmouth why are you playing there? How come your not expanding your crusade there? :bang: Thanks for the link. Now if you could provide one for how much revenue that MP got from the elite 2010 meet. If it was that big of success, you would think that they would provide those numbers.
I hammer Penn National and Parx all the the time. I never bet either of them not only because of the takeout, but also because some pretty well publicized other issues. I almost never bet GP. I do bet TB in spite of the high takeout because the unique job that they do of writing races that are highly bettable in my style of betting. They are the leader in % of bettable race by a wide margin in my opinion. There is more to carding a bettable race than adding a couple more horses running for an appearance fee.
I bring up the takeout issue because there is 3+ million dollars a day of boycotting CA handle waiting to grabbed up. It is obviously takeout sensitive money. Nobody including MP or for that matter any other large track seems to want to want. I just don't understand why.

[onefast99]

Thanks for the link. Now if you could provide one for how much revenue that MP got from the elite 2010 meet. If it was that big of success, you would think that they would provide those numbers.
I hammer Penn National and Parx all the the time. I never bet either of them not only because of the takeout, but also because some pretty well publicized other issues. I almost never bet GP. I do bet TB in spite of the high takeout because the unique job that they do of writing races that are highly bettable in my style of betting. They are the leader in % of bettable race by a wide margin in my opinion. There is more to carding a bettable race than adding a couple more horses running for an appearance fee.
I bring up the takeout issue because there is 3+ million dollars a day of boycotting CA handle waiting to grabbed up. It is obviously takeout sensitive money. Nobody including MP or for that matter any other large track seems to want to want. I just don't understand why.
Send a check to George Zahn at the NJSEA for $25k and you will receive the numbers in 3-4 days by UPS. Don't worry your money is refundable if they don't choose you as one of the bidders. If they do can you guarantee a lower takeout will bring more betting dollars in?

[Robert Goren]

Send a check to George Zahn at the NJSEA for $25k and you will receive the numbers in 3-4 days by UPS. Don't worry your money is refundable if they don't choose you as one of the bidders. If they do can you guarantee a lower takeout will bring more betting dollars in? Although recently it has only been tried at few small tracks, it has always increased handle. NY did it a number of years ago and it worked then. The one thing that is sure is if they increase the takeout, the handle will go down. MP last year had a low takeout pool for the pick 5 and got very good handle for it. Everything points to a decrease in takeout rates will bring a significant increase in handle. It is "Laffer Curve" for horse racing.

[The Hawk]

Last year's Monmouth meet cost NJ taxpayers millions of dollars; this, in spite of $30 million subsidized by the casino industry.

Yeah, they lost $6 million, right?

Wrong. You're not including the revenue from the OTBs. Favorites, one of the OTBs, made $7 million. Do you think an OTB about 20 minutes from the track affected Monmouth? How about the one in Toms River?

Additionally (and this is true for all racetracks): Consider the taxes generated from claims, sales, and the huge amount of income tax for employees, barn workers, vets, trainers and suppliers. Plus, the additional income from surrounding restaurants via taxes. Highway tolls. NJ Transit. How about the taxes paid by the area's farms, which will go away with the demise of Monmouth, and other businesses, like hotels? The fact is the state is better off financially with Monmouth than it would be without it, even with a bottom-line loss of $6 million.

Perhaps the quality was better ... but the competitiveness was little improved. That was largely due to the $1500 per starter welfare checks.

Horse players get value from competitive racing. More than two-thirds of Monmouth's winners last year paid below 5-1.

First off, in this day and age, there are many, many instances where a horse offers value at 9/2 or less. And is there a track in the country where less than two-thirds of the winners are below 5-1?

[BarnieClockerbigal]

Now if you could provide one for how much revenue that MP got from the elite 2010 meet. If it was that big of success, you would think that they would provide those numbers.



They only provide authority numbers to the public.

Here's NJSEA revenue for the fiscal year (july 2010-January 2011)

https://www13.state.nj.us/pls/nj_public/f?p=AUTHORITY_REVENUE:521:0::NO:SESSION

Allan

[onefast99]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren
Now if you could provide one for how much revenue that MP got from the elite 2010 meet. If it was that big of success, you would think that they would provide those numbers.

Send the $25k and you will have it in 3-4 days.

[Robert Goren]

I don't have a spare 25k and with due respect, if I did wouldn't trust to any political appointee from NJ or anyplace else for that matter. You got to wonder whether people who do are smart enough to run a race track.

Why should I have send someone 25k in order to see something that should be publicly available? I thought government operated enterprises were suppose to be transparent. What do they have to hide? In Nebraska, the state fair ran a meet for over half a century and everything was available to the public.

[onefast99]

I don't have a spare 25k and with due respect, if I did wouldn't trust to any political appointee from NJ or anyplace else for that matter. You got to wonder whether people who do are smart enough to run a race track.

Why should I have send someone 25k in order to see something that should be publicly available? I thought government operated enterprises were suppose to be transparent. What do they have to hide? In Nebraska, the state fair ran a meet for over half a century and everything was available to the public.
Everyone associated with horse racing in NJ asks the samething, what are the numbers, maybe once the bidding for MP is over someone will get a hold of them and post them.

[BarnieClockerbigal]

Everyone associated with horse racing in NJ asks the samething, what are the numbers, maybe once the bidding for MP is over someone will get a hold of them and post them.

NJSEA has keep the real figures away from the public for years.

Keeping the political patronage mill going.a NJSEA job was (is) a big do-nothing job with a six figure salary.

Allan

[Kelso]

We are talking about the fact that many bettors enjoyed last years MP meet as opossed to other years when it was tough to bet at this track.OHHHH ... so now it's "MANY" instead of "the majority." Caught in the headlights and scrambling to change your story yet again, eh Onefast? (How long before it's simply "all my horsey pals up there in the owners' boxes?)

Just your style. Throw some nonsense out there in support of Welfare-for-Horsemen and hope nobody questions the source. Typical, Onefast, typical.

[Kelso]

Show me the numbers.The purses, the subsidy and the handle are all facts. (I know that concept makes you uncomfortable. Tough.)

Takeout on the handle didn't come even close to covering the purses ... missing by roughly $15 million. The subsidy, which should have been taken by the taxpayers ... since the casinos had no problem parting with it, even though they were conned into doing so ... had to cover the difference PLUS pay for operating the park.

YOU keep alleging the meet was successful ... in support of your chronic whining for more, more, more of other people's money. It's up to YOU to produce the numbers that show last year's Effete Meet as anything other than a financial disastor for the track and the taxpayers who own it.

It was successful for only the horsemen who got their noses deep into the publick trough.

[Kelso]

What else would you expect from Kelso but drivel. Look at his logo it states boycott Tracknet which was dissolved in 2010 :bang:I keep that there as a reminder ... to horseman suckups such as yourself ... of how fantastically successful I was with the boycott. :jump:

[Kelso]

The monies they received over the last several years were directly from the casinos to keep MP and the Meadowlands from putting slots in and further diminishing their profits.The monies definitively did NOT "keep MP and the Meadowlands from putting slots in." Damn, man ... are you incapapble of remembering even your own posts (senseless though most of them are)?!? The money was paid because the casinos were conned into believing you horsey guys had more political clout than you've ever had. When they learned otherwise, the spigot was turned off.

What the hush money demonstrated, however, is that the casinos can, indeed, be taxed more heavily than they've been. (That thought should warm your cold heart.) That money could just as well have been taxed into the state treasury as fed into your never-satisfied pocket.

Despite what your silly, self-serving polls migt suggest ... the political likelihood of any expansions of gambling in NJ is weak-to-moribund. Just look at the troubles getting a handful of OTWs into towns across the state. The casinos understand that now.

[Kelso]

realize you are dealing with a state run agency who works like any other government agency, on their own clock.Just one of a multitude of reasons why it is not the state's job to "grow" industries of any sort.

The state should not have got into the racing business ... or the entertainment business, either ... in any way shape or form. Government should not be competing with private, tax-paying and far-more-productive, industries. (Unless, of course, it puts money .... BIG MONEY .... into Onefast's never-satisfied pockets. Right, Onefast?)

[Kelso]

and how does that compare to comparable meets last year at
saratoga
del mar
Arlington park

<snip>

Lets compare apples to apples.Yes, by all means ... let's.

We'll begin by noting that none of those tracks were subsidized by $30 MILLION of other people's money. (Nor by another $145+ million in preceding years.)

Then, perhaps, YOU should tell US if any of those tracks fell $15 MILLION short of covering their purses.

[Kelso]

You're not including the revenue from the OTBs.The OTBs do not belong to the track ... nor, for that matter, to the horsemen who have laid claim to them. MTH received its signal fee for wagers made at the OTBs. That's all to which it was entitled.

Any profits made by a NJ OTB belong ... are ya ready for it ... TO THE TAXPAYERS OF NEW JERSEY WHO OWN THOSE OTBs! Horsemen desperately don't want that reality to get around, but that's still the way it is.



How about the taxes paid by the area's farms, which will go away with the demise of MonmouthNJ farms receive a special "farmland assessment" which amounts to a pittance against the value of the land. A standard threat of the Welfare-for-needy-Horsemen crowd is that those farms will be turned into housing developments and shopping malls. While I don't relish the prospect of that happening, the land would then yield ENORMOUSLY more in property taxes than it does now.

(And that "feed us or we'll sell" shiboleth is, and always has been, complete nonsense. The farms will sell when AND IF the price is right.)

[onefast99]

The monies definitively did NOT "keep MP and the Meadowlands from putting slots in." Damn, man ... are you incapapble of remembering even your own posts (senseless though most of them are)?!? The money was paid because the casinos were conned into believing you horsey guys had more political clout than you've ever had. When they learned otherwise, the spigot was turned off.

What the hush money demonstrated, however, is that the casinos can, indeed, be taxed more heavily than they've been. (That thought should warm your cold heart.) That money could just as well have been taxed into the state treasury as fed into your never-satisfied pocket.

Despite what your silly, self-serving polls migt suggest ... the political likelihood of any expansions of gambling in NJ is weak-to-moribund. Just look at the troubles getting a handful of OTWs into towns across the state. The casinos understand that now.
Where do you come up with this information? You continue writing about the casinos were afraid that "the tracks had more political clout" when everyone in the state knows the payoffs were for one reason, no slots at the race-tracks. You again make a bold statement that the OTW's won't be built out, you are dead wrong in this case(as most others)by allowing a revenue share the towns will be able to get them approved.
Please send me a case of that tonic you down before getting on the keys I promise you fame and fortune when I sell it to my horseman friends! Enjoy the day sailor.

[onefast99]

Just one of a multitude of reasons why it is not the state's job to "grow" industries of any sort.

The state should not have got into the racing business ... or the entertainment business, either ... in any way shape or form. Government should not be competing with private, tax-paying and far-more-productive, industries. (Unless, of course, it puts money .... BIG MONEY .... into Onefast's never-satisfied pockets. Right, Onefast?)
But they did and you cannot change that no matter how much you picket, boycott or whine.

[The Hawk]

The OTBs do not belong to the track ... nor, for that matter, to the horsemen who have laid claim to them. MTH received its signal fee for wagers made at the OTBs. That's all to which it was entitled.

Any profits made by a NJ OTB belong ... are ya ready for it ... TO THE TAXPAYERS OF NEW JERSEY WHO OWN THOSE OTBs! Horsemen desperately don't want that reality to get around, but that's still the way it is.


That's not the point. The point is the track would have been profitable had the OTBs not been built. If you put a new OTB outside any profitable racetrack and the track's profits are then down do you not see a correlation? You can't be that dense.


NJ farms receive a special "farmland assessment" which amounts to a pittance against the value of the land. A standard threat of the Welfare-for-needy-Horsemen crowd is that those farms will be turned into housing developments and shopping malls. While I don't relish the prospect of that happening, the land would then yield ENORMOUSLY more in property taxes than it does now.

So you live out of state, and you think NJ needs to build more housing developments and shopping malls? If you had any credibility this statement would ruin it.

[The Hawk]

Just one of a multitude of reasons why it is not the state's job to "grow" industries of any sort.

The state should not have got into the racing business ... or the entertainment business, either ... in any way shape or form. Government should not be competing with private, tax-paying and far-more-productive, industries. (Unless, of course, it puts money .... BIG MONEY .... into Onefast's never-satisfied pockets. Right, Onefast?)

Never heard any talk that the state shouldn't be in the racing business when revenue from the sport bankrolled several major projects around New Jersey. Then it was okay, I guess.

[The Hawk]

The money was paid because the casinos were conned into believing you horsey guys had more political clout than you've ever had. When they learned otherwise, the spigot was turned off.

Kelso, smarter than everyone here, clearly knows more about this situation than the casino executives, too, who paid $175 million to racetracks over the years without doing ANY kind of due diligence or research. They just blindly turned over the money to the tracks, despite dwindling revenue. They were stupid. We're stupid. Kelso is smart. Welcome to Kelso's World.

[Canarsie]

I keep that there as a reminder ... to horseman suckups such as yourself ... of how fantastically successful I was with the boycott. :jump:


You keep that there because you are either to lazy to remove it or your ex friend did it and you don't have the wherewithal to do it yourself.

[onefast99]

NJ farms receive a special "farmland assessment" which amounts to a pittance against the value of the land. A standard threat of the Welfare-for-needy-Horsemen crowd is that those farms will be turned into housing developments and shopping malls. While I don't relish the prospect of that happening, the land would then yield ENORMOUSLY more in property taxes than it does now.

They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.

[Kelso]

You continue writing about the casinos were afraid that "the tracks had more political clout" when everyone in the state knows the payoffs were for one reason, no slots at the race-tracks.Damn, horseman ... must this actually be spelled out for you?!? The casinos wouldn't have feared the possibility of slots at the tracks unless they had first misjudged the welfare-for-horseman lobby's clout to get them legalized! Without that uninformed fear ... "NO SUBSIDY FOR YOU!!!"


You again make a bold statement that the OTW's won't be built out, you are dead wrong in this case(as most others)by allowing a revenue share the towns will be able to get them approved.I made no such statement ... ever. I have, however, pointed out the great difficulty NJSEA has encountered with the RELATIVELY simple task of getting OTB parlors into even empty shopping malls. Stop putting words into my posts ... just as you falsely attribute motives to casinos.

[Kelso]

But they did and you cannot change that no matter how much you picket, boycott or whine.I did not suggest they hadn't. I said they "should" not ... I didn't say they "did" not. Perhaps a grade-school level dictionary, and someone to read and explain it to you, would help.

[Kelso]

The point is the track would have been profitable had the OTBs not been built. If you put a new OTB outside any profitable racetrack and the track's profits are then down do you not see a correlation? You can't be that dense.But you, clearly, can be so ignorant of MTH's revenue stream as to make such a painfully ignorant statement. Few of the bettors who could not bet MTH from Toms River ... and even from Woodbridge ... would have bothered to make the trip to the park. The NJ OTBs serve the same function as simulcasting and OTB (brick and online) have done since their inceptions ... ADD ENORMOUS HANDLE TO TRACKS' RACES.

If you can PROVE otherwise, I would be very interested in your evidence.


you think NJ needs to build more housing developments and shopping malls? If you had any credibility this statement would ruin it.That's up to the market, not to me or to the horsemen. If you understood anything at all about free-market capitalism (you've already made clear your affinity for socialism) you wouldn't have made THIS painfully ignorant statement.

[Kelso]

Never heard any talk that the state shouldn't be in the racing business when revenue from the sport bankrolled several major projects around New Jersey. Then it was okay, I guess.Take a close look at those hard-spun NJSEA (revenue-only) numbers posted by your pal Onefast. You'll see that the big bucks came from the other elements of the Meadowlands complex. And whatever the MED track might have contributed in the early years has been long since swallowed up by the losses at both tracks. (Hell, you'll even see that handle was down year-over-year at the Woodbridge OTB! What's up with that???)

[Kelso]

Kelso, smarter than everyone here, clearly knows more about this situation than the casino executives, too, who paid $175 million to racetracks over the years without doing ANY kind of due diligence or research. They just blindly turned over the money to the tracks, despite dwindling revenue. They were stupid.Knowing, as I hope you do, the lengthy and intricate legal process of expanding NJ gambling beyond Atlantic City, and the notorious votes-for-hire reputation of NJ politicans at all levels of government ... there's no other rational explanation for it.



Kelso is smart.Why thank you, Hawk. So kind ... and clear-eyed ... of you to notice. Sincerely wish I could suspect the same about you.

[Kelso]

They paved paradise and put up a parking lot.And freedom's not free.

Ya can't please everybody; particularly Casandras who can't run their own businesses without welfare from taxpayers and from other people who can successfully run their businesses without it.

[onefast99]

I made no such statement ... ever. I have, however, pointed out the great difficulty NJSEA has encountered with the RELATIVELY simple task of getting OTB parlors into even empty shopping malls. Stop putting words into my posts ... just as you falsely attribute motives to casinos.

Welcome back Kelso! This one takes the cake. If you think for one instant that setting up an OTW is a relatively simple task you have no knowledge of what it takes to get one off the ground. The following are just a few of the items neeeded: a site selection, a usage permit or variance from the selected town, building plans as well as the necessary building permits as well as the time it takes for a town to have public hearings and eventually approve or deny the application. But then again you are a professional bs artist so no need to discuss it any further.
On another note if you really think the casinos didn't put up the $175m to keep the tracks from installing vlt's I would recommend you stay away from this thread you are starting to look very ignorant. Add me to your boycott list, please!

[Robert Goren]

It takes even longer when none of the locals want it. Once you clear the legal hurdles, the actual set up should not take that long. Lincoln moved its simulcast center in less than 6 weeks when they had a major flood several years ago.

[Robert Goren]

On another note if you really think the casinos didn't put up the $175m to keep the tracks from installing vlt's I would recommend you stay away from this thread you are starting to look very ignorant. Add me to your boycott list, please!Final someone on your side admitted that they got $175m. That is step in the right direction.

[onefast99]

It takes even longer when none of the locals want it. Once you clear the legal hurdles, the actual set up should not take that long. Lincoln moved its simulcast center in less than 6 weeks when they had a major flood several years ago.
12-18 months per OTW. Case closed.