Is there any hope?

[badcompany]

I'm neither an optimist or a pessimist, but a realist. Looking at the harness landscape, it's hard to be positive. IMO, the Meadowlands is toast. Christie is in bed with AC (A scary visual), and they want the track made into a casino. The PA tracks with their absurdly high takeouts are attractive only to someone who hates money. Then, you have Northfield with its 2k purses, and it goes downhill from there.

Of course, there's NY with its slots money, but, Yonkers has no interest in promoting harness as evidenced by its horrible simo facilities and poor accomodations for horseplayers. Saratoga is a bit better but still gives harness the short shrift.

I'm down to betting about 6 weeks out of the year, from late July until Labor Day. It's during that time when the NYSS races take place. The quality of the horses makes the races formful, and the big purses prevent game playing.

The rest of the year with its nw1 and cheap claimers just isn't worthwhile.

Can anybody see a scenario in which this game doesn't die out?

[baconswitchfarm]

no

[JustRalph]

2nd bacons motion!

[lamboguy]

I'm neither an optimist or a pessimist, but a realist. Looking at the harness landscape, it's hard to be positive. IMO, the Meadowlands is toast. Christie is in bed with AC (A scary visual), and they want the track made into a casino. The PA tracks with their absurdly high takeouts are attractive only to someone who hates money. Then, you have Northfield with its 2k purses, and it goes downhill from there.

Of course, there's NY with its slots money, but, Yonkers has no interest in promoting harness as evidenced by its horrible simo facilities and poor accomodations for horseplayers. Saratoga is a bit better but still gives harness the short shrift.

I'm down to betting about 6 weeks out of the year, from late July until Labor Day. It's during that time when the NYSS races take place. The quality of the horses makes the races formful, and the big purses prevent game playing.

The rest of the year with its nw1 and cheap claimers just isn't worthwhile.

Can anybody see a scenario in which this game doesn't die out?it depends how big a bettor you are. i like the canadien harness b-tracks. they all have takeouts of 26% for w-p-s, but the rebates make it a better bet than WEG or MEADOWLANDS. SARATOGA HARNESS, VERNON DOWNS, BUFFALO, AND YONKERS are all pretty good too. the only problems with these tracks are the pools can't handle any type of big bets. they are ok for $2.00 exacta's and $20 win bets early in the pool.

harness to me looks like it will outlive thoroughbred racing. harness racing is more of a blue collar game and if the right people step in and run it, it will be somewhat easier to police.

[Ray2000]

....

Can anybody see a scenario in which this game doesn't die out?


3 races per night with "blind odds" betting. (and No Morning Line, it sucks anyway)

All other races show real time odds.. "Up to the milli-second", This would require a complete revamp of the tote system, No last second batch processing from OTBs or ADWs. and .. No wagering after "call to gate"
(How dare they change the tote after the gate opens... :mad:

2 races per night raced under saddle, "Monté"
(might bring in some curious T-Bred betters)

One strike on illegal drugs and you're out nation-wide, forever.



.

[bigmack]

You won't find anyone more fatalistic about making money in the game than badcompany.

Odd in a number of ways why he would even care.

[Tom]

I like Yonkers. :ThmbUp:

[badcompany]

You won't find anyone more fatalistic about making money in the game than badcompany.

Odd in a number of ways why he would even care.

Not surprisingly, you missed the point of the thread which is to see if there's any way that harness racing reverses its current downward slide.

Then again, in your fantasy world, Roosevelt Raceway is still drawing 30k on a Saturday night.

[toetoe]

Good points; all good points, BC. I love the Sires Stakes, too. :ThmbUp: .

[badcompany]

Actually, there is one light at the end of the tunnel: Jeff Gural.

He's a track owner who has a passion for the sport of Harness racing, has the resources to make some changes, and most importantly, understands the problems, as evidenced by this excerpt from a recent piece:


"One suggestion, if we are truly interested in the long-term future of our sport, would be for the horsemen at the tracks that have slots to take five per cent of the slot money and use it to market the product with particular emphasis on bringing new and younger people to view the product. I think this is a small sacrifice to make in order to ensure that the young people who work in our business have a future and do not find themselves without a career in 10 or 15 years. I know four of the five people that work on my two farms are in their early 30s and Jason is also in his early 30s and these people deserve at least a chance to make a career out of our great sport."

[Charles54]

Close down the smaller tracks that are on artificial life support. The racing industry has no inherent right to slots money and, in the long run, the public is going to demand that money be used for a more wortwhile purpose.

There should only be as much professional racing as the betting public is willing to support and, what there is, should be run efficiently. Something like two tracks a night with fifteen races each -- perhaps a little more racing on the weekends. That would only leave room for the top horses, drivers and trainers to make a living. And that's how a professional sport should be.

Hopefully less races and higher quality, more competitive races would mean bigger pools and bigger purses.

And, for goodness sake, zero tolerance for cheating (like every other sport.)

[Robert Goren]

5% of the slot for marketing is like doing nothing. 50% is more like it. But don't expect the horsemen to give up even the 5%. Greed is killing both harness and the flats.

[wilderness]

Please forgive my intrusion, however most of your are looking at this from either a general public perspective or a wagering perspective.

The horsemen are going to race irregardless of purses and within their own locals.

Even if that racing entails non-pari-mutuel racing and racing for their own money.
Neither the general public or industry regulation may prevent that.

[wilderness]

"One suggestion, if we are truly interested in the long-term future of our sport, would be for the horsemen at the tracks that have slots to take five per cent of the slot money and use it to market the product with particular emphasis on bringing new and younger people to view the product."

This cannot and will NEVER be implemented after the initial implementation of the VLT revenue distribution.

These procedures needed to be implemented at the initial legislation level.
Unfortunately, neither the the horsemen or lawmakers were interested in contributing to the longevity of the industry, as opposed to their own pockets.
Changing that legislation today would be an impossibility.

[Hanover1]

Please forgive my intrusion, however most of your are looking at this from either a general public perspective or a wagering perspective.

The horsemen are going to race irregardless of purses and within their own locals.

Even if that racing entails non-pari-mutuel racing and racing for their own money.
Neither the general public or industry regulation may prevent that.

I have pointed this out on many occasion, but somehow it does not sink in.....The sport of kings is just that, sporting of kings. Kings have prospered while peasants starve.....

[Tom]

So what do they do, show up at Yonkers parking lot and race each other for side bets?

If what you say is true, then the horsemen now are getting far too much in purse money, wouldn't you say? If they can afford to pay for the game out of pocket for person glory, why do we shove so much money at them now?
Maybe token prize money of $500 a race, winner only, would help bolster up the game at many tracks.

:rolleyes:

[Ray2000]

...The horsemen are going to race irregardless of purses and within their own locals.

Even if that racing entails non-pari-mutuel racing and racing for their own money.
Neither the general public or industry regulation may prevent that.


Don, I get it.. The best fun I've had at harness races could be the Fair Circuit, Canfield, Ohio with betting or Waynesburg, Pa without, but ........
I'm sorry to say you are

"The voice of one crying in the Wilderness"



.

[wilderness]

Ray,
Whatever ;)

The former success of pari-mutuel racing 1946-1985 for harness racing, is a relatively small period when compared to the overall history or racing.

Prior to 1946 there were only a few PM tracks.
At these non-PM tracks horsemen raced primarily for their own money since the 1800's or even earlier.

Even in the 1930's and 1940 the "so-called" overnights required early year entry and required a sustaining fee of 3%. Later and before racing an additional 1-3% was required to start.

Given the duress and declining market share of harness racing, I "expect" these types of entry fees to be re-implemented.

BTW, I've a few nice photo's of Canfield and even Canton, if your interested contact me privately.

[Pacingguy]

There will always be harness racing with wagering. But make no mistake, the industry is going to go through great upheaval and retraction.

[Overcall]

Two points, we were in a deep recession... all the states are broke.
Recessions/depressions bring out the worst in people
eg Gov Christe

And how bout the folks that pulled somebeachsomewhere and
RockinRollHeaven out of racing after their 3yo campaign. You think
they're w/o hope? Betcha most of y'all old enough to see Ramblin
Willie got to the track to see him when he made his retirement
tour.

[heavygear]

http://www.hulu.com/watch/15057/tvg-roosevelt-raceway

[rowboat]

You must joking.Gural got vernon because of the slots no more no less.He smells slots at the big M or he wouldnt be involved.He cant even get 10 horses in a race at vernon.Vernon was closed.he is no savior.

[rowboat]

Google vernon downs is losing money read do your research and then tell me he is a savior.real estate magnet in nyc no more no less

[Hanover1]

As stated before-Stronach had visions too.....real estate speculator?