What was the Takeout in the Golden Age for Horse Racing?

[Tuffmug]

In all the discussion about high takeout at the tracks today I've never heard what takeout was in the golden years of horse racing in the 1920's,1930's, and 1940's. Anyone out there who knows and can clue me in?

[DeanT]

When it started in around 1910 it was 5%.

In 1930 the average was about 7% I believe.

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/12/when-takeout-was-5.html

[Ocala Mike]

Old-timers I worked with at the NY tracks in the 70's told me that the take was 10% in NY when pari-mutuels began in 1939. They bragged about how they could beat the game back then, but couldn't do so when the take was 17% or so in the 70's.

They told me that a lot of guys beat the game in NY betting show into a 10% take, with breaks to the nickel, back in the "golden age."


Ocala Mike

[thaskalos]

In Robert Saunders Dowst's book "Straight, Place and Show" (circa 1945) he states that "in New York, a 10% takeout is authorized."

[Tuffmug]

5 to 10%!!! The tracks and the States (via the increased take) performed reverse alchemy. They have turned Gold into Lead!

[horsepro]

There are many of the top tracks today that have a high take out simply because they know customers or bettors are going their regardless. They offer top notch racing and will draw a crowd.

But, PORTLAND MEADOWS offers a less than average tale out and the prices
are fairly decent. We do no pay to much attention to this track, but customers have emailed us about how satisfied their prices are for a small track.

[Robert Goren]

I don't know if the 1960s were the golden age or not, but was in the 12-14% range then and a lot of it was taxes. Now almost none of it goes to taxes and it is 18-22%. Somebody got really greedy.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

It appears it was the early 1946 that New York upped their takeout from 10% to 15%.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=tOgeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=sswEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1629,5845439&dq=new+york+track+takeout&hl=en

[ronsmac]

Even Maryland was only 15% in the early 70s with the state taking more than 5% of that. Now the state takes .5% and the exacta take is 21% and the tri is 25.75%

[csperberg]

1963 SI article about take out and horseplayers. Maybe some will find it an interesting read
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1074748/index.htmAugust

[Horseplayersbet.com]

1963 SI article about take out and horseplayers. Maybe some will find it an interesting read
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1074748/index.htmAugust
Great find.

[thaskalos]

1963 SI article about take out and horseplayers. Maybe some will find it an interesting read
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1074748/index.htmAugustI wonder how large, horse racing's costumer base would be, if we all read this piece before we started playing this game.

[Charlie D]

Yer great find.

Increasing taxes is definitely the way forward ;)

[Horseplayersbet.com]

What I find funny is that those opposed to gambling wanted takeout increases to curtail gambling on horses.
Kind of like what governments say when they up the taxes on cigarettes.

[acorn54]

i urge everyone not already a member to join hana, as they are trying to lower the take out across the country
i also urge everyone to boycott santa anita due to their recent increase in take out.
in the long term it is in the interest of horseplayers to do so.

[The_Knight_Sky]

1963 SI article about take out and horseplayers.

Maybe some will find it an interesting read
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1074748/index.htmAugust




Thanks Mac.

Something tells me CanGamble is hard at work http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/UBGX/07.gif on his next blog post.

[takeout]

When it started in around 1910 it was 5%.I don’t see why that should have ever changed.

The only thing that should have changed between then and now is that breakage should have been done away with decades ago.

[JohnGalt1]

Just think----

In 40 years, 2001-2011 will be the good old days. :jump:

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Just think----

In 40 years, 2001-2011 will be the good old days. :jump:
I think we hit the peak of takeout hikes. I can't see any other track trying it with what happened in California.
We should see an tendency from here on in to drop the takeout.
If I'm wrong, 25 years from now, there will be only robot horses running around the track, takeout will be much lower, trainers will be replaced by computer programmers, robots will be track owned, and bettors will be complaining about day of race battery changes.

[thaskalos]

I think we hit the peak of takeout hikes. I can't see any other track trying it with what happened in California.
We should see an tendency from here on in to drop the takeout.
You wanna bet?

Where are they going to get the money to maintain their current purse structures, if the mutuel pools continue to decline?

You don't think that the horsemen will be inclined to take a pay cut, do you?

[acorn54]

well hana has done research on the ideal take out and found out it is around ten percent if memory serves me
that means that the maximum money bet is reached in combination with financing a healthy racing industry.

[thaskalos]

well hana has done research on the ideal take out and found out it is around ten percent if memory serves me
that means that the maximum money bet is reached in combination with financing a healthy racing industry.Ahh...ok...my fears are at rest now.

[highnote]

I love this line from the SI article:

"Racegoers may well be the most put-upon and the least represented of groups. "

A group of horseplayers from Paceadvantage, myself included, got together here in the War Room and got Mike from PA to give us a section on this site with the intention of giving horseplayers representation. HANA is long overdue.

Here is the entire paragraph...

Racegoers may well be the most put-upon and the least represented of groups. Last winter a good race writer, discussing a proposal for the conduct of racing and an increased take, said that "for once all parties concerned" were in favor. He listed the parties, and nowhere was there a mention of the most numerous—and financially most indispensable—party: those whose dollars keep the totalizer flickering. The Jockey Club and tracks, stockholders, management, state commissions and their association, officials, horse owners and trainers, riders, jockeys' agents, veterinarians, farriers, mutuel clerks, stable help, concessionaires, cooks, waiters, janitors, charwomen—all these sometimes speak and sometimes act in their own interest. But not the vast, miscellaneous, disorganized racegoers—33,073,712 last year—on whose patronage the well-being of the others depends.

[captainhot]

Fascinating article from 1963. I'm reminded of Santayana's famous quote, "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

[The_Knight_Sky]

Thanks Mac.

Something tells me CanGamble is hard at work http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/images/UBGX/07.gif on his next blog post.



If only my instincts were this good at the track. ;)


Anti-Gambling Groups Were All For Takeout Hikes (http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2011/02/anti-gambling-groups-were-all-for.html)
by CanGamble blog


It is kind of interesting that Hammond states that takeout was a secret from the 1940's to the early 60's. Again, pointing out the number doesn't stop a player from playing in most cases.....if the takeout number is high though, it stops the player from playing in the future, or at least really slows the player down.

Some track takeouts from 1963:
Maryland 13% (increased from 12% in 1962)
Kentucky 14%
New York 15% (no increase since the big one in 1946)
Florida 15%

The thing that really is kind of mind blowing is the percentage the State took. In New York, two thirds of the money collected as takeout went to the government. In Maryland and Kentucky, the percentage of takeout going to government was between 28 and 35%. Those numbers are huge in comparison of what government receive today.

Tracks generally existed on 2-4% of total takeout, while purse accounts were funded with 2-4% of the takeout.