Designated Hitter

[Suff]

Don't pollute the Baseball Playoff thread with "Designated hitter" Bullshit. What the F! Does last night have anything to do with the DH...

First off all..Pedro played in the NL. For 3 Seasons. He pitched inside.

You seriously think Roger would'nt pitch inside if went Nl?

Come on. Get serious. Are you trying to say they don't go inside in the NL? Then why can't more than 20 people hit over 275 in the entire league?

They play the game on ASTRO TURF!! Astro Turf changed Baseball more than the DH ever did.

You don't like the DH.... Then watch the Cubs Marlins and go away.

Note to the Cry babys... WE DON'T CARE THAT THE NL HAS NO DH. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO GET THE NL TO GO DH. WE COULD CARE LESS WHAT THE NL DOES. THE NL MEANS NOTHING! DO YOU HEAR ME? NOTHING! TO US.

and furthermore... Whats going here has nothing to do with anyone except Boston and NY. Its between us. If you'd like to watch and comment.. feel free. People who don't live up here have no idea whats going on.



This is between the two towns.

We got a few scores to settle here in Boston.

The settlin starts tonight at 7:30.

[cj]

Pitching inside and drilling someone upstairs are two completely different things. You are letting your love of the Red Sox cloud your judgement on yesterday's game. Pedro was wrong, plain and simple.

For the record, Pedro pitched inside while on the Expos, and he was drilled on more than one occasion. He has pitched just under 50% of his innings in the NL, he hit 38 batters. In the AL, he has hit 61.

Suff, you know I think the world of you. Just disagree with you on this point. I hate the Yankees too. I'm just really tired of hearing about this so called rivalry. Supposedly the greatest in sports. In rivalries, both teams win. That is not the case here.

[sq764]

I have to disagree.. If he wanted to hit him in the head, he would have, plain and simple..

Karim Garcia (who in the hell is Karim Garcia???) has absolutely no right to take offense from a pitch.. He is a nobody. He then has the balls to take out the second basemen for no reason.. Guess what, I'd have hit him again.

I am just so sick of seeing these babies in the league, everytime a pitch comes close or hits them, they cry.. Christ, Bonds gets hit and the world has to stop..

How are the pitchers expected to have a chance when guys have no fear? And those suits of armor when they get up there? They lean over the plate and have these huge pads on their arms like Bonds does.. Then when you hit them, you get warned??? How is that fair?

[cj]

To say Pedro could have hit him in the head if he "wanted" to is ridiculous. Have you ever pitched? Noone is that accurate. Just because he didn't does not mean he wasn't trying. Hitting someone where he did is BS. If you want to send a message, the thigh or the ribcage maybe, but not the head area. Mike Mussina was villified in Baltimore because he wouldn't throw at people. I say he is a class act.

[Valuist]

This thread was directed at me, because I brought it up. And if you don't know why I brought it up, then you don't understand the game. I don't care how long you've been on this site or if 99% of the people take your side, the DH pollutes the game. Pedro is a chicken shit punk because he knows he never has to bat against the Yankees or A's or Mariners pitchers. Big deal if he has to bat occasionally against the Marlins or Mets in interleague. Turnabout is fair play, and I've love to see Kerry Wood buzz that Dominican punk.

Yesterday was yet another example of why the DH sucks.

[cj]

I guess a lot of this outrage by me is venting because I used to really love baseball. I grew up listening to every game on the radio when I was supposed to be asleep. Lot of tired days at school during those west coast swings of the Os. I played EVERY day in the summer. I would wake up at 4 am and get my uniform to prepare for a 10am game.

I grew up watching guys with nothing but class. Eddie Murray, Cal Ripken, Brooks Robinson, Mark Belanger, Rick Dempsey, and even Mussina in the 90s. Guys who loved the game of baseball and had the utmost respect for it. And guess what, they could still win. Jim Palmer didn't throw at anyone's head, and he was pretty good! Where have guys like this gone? There are a couple left, but you have to look deep to find them. Nomar and Jeter come to mind, I wonder what they think of the game yesterday.

[cj]

One other thing...anyone remember Paul Blair? If you don't, the reason is he was never the same ballplayer after getting drilled in the face. Read his story sometime. Rookie of the Year, great hitter, incredible center fielder. He remained a great fielder, but only a so so hitter the rest of his career.

[sq764]

Yes CJ, I pitched in college, and no I didn;t throw 95, only around 87-88 mph.. And I could hit people pretty much where i wanted to for the most part.. And guess what, I was a college player, he is a HOF pitcher! These guys are more accurate than you give them credit for.

[sq764]

You say Mussina was villified for not pitching inside, and your point is??..

Remind me again how he has done in the playoffs? He's been shelled!

What does that tell you?

[cj]

Again, another guy confusing throwing inside with intentionally drilling people...THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING! And I'm tired of hearing how Mussina gets shelled all the time, he pitched some great games for the O's in the playoffs. As a famous broadcaster used to say, "You can look it up."

Again, how are pitching inside and drilling people the same thing?

[sq764]

Here's the difference..

If a guy is leaning over the plate and diving in, I throw inside and if he gets hit, he gets hit. If you do not, he is going to pound you every time up (For reference, see Mussina vs. Minnesota and Mussina vs. Bosox)

If a guy like Manny Ramirez hits a homerun off of me and stands there and watches it, next time up, I hit him...hard. He will think twice about admiring his homerun, and about digging in next time.


You don't think Bob Gibson drilled people on purpose? Are you kidding me? Sure he did.. And that is how he had a 1.12 ERA for an entire year!!

[sq764]

When I say 'drill people', I am referring to in the ribs or in the thigh, not in the head.. There is no excuse for throwing at a guy's head..

If that is in fact what Pedro was doing, he was wrong.. I am not sure if he was or not, but I don't think so.

[Bubbles]

My claim to fame regarding baseball:

One of the first regular season Subway Series, Yankees/Mets, and I was there. Clemens was on a big roll (22 straight winning decisions).

Piazza comes up and ABSOLUTELY ROCKS a big homer off of the Rocket. It kindah hangs up in the air for a while, and Piazza, not convinced it was going out, squints at it, which could be easily mistaken for show-boating. Mets win, but later in the season...

BAM! Lights out, Piazza.

And it should be noted that that was the game where the Mets turned the season around. Ended up winning the NLDS on Pratt's homer.

[Suff]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
.

Suff, you know I think the world of you. Just disagree with you on this point. I hate the Yankees too. I'm just really tired of hearing about this so called rivalry. Supposedly the greatest in sports. In rivalries, both teams win. That is not the case here.

Ditto CJ. We're friends. Not a Doubt in My mind we'll be Kickin it on the rail many times in the Future.

Just Got back from Fenway area. Hard to describe the Anger over there right now. Its raining very hard and the Water draining is a problem. The DPW had to shut off a few streets around the Yankee Hotel. Looks Like the Bus's Carrying the Yankees will be re-routed on the way from Hotel to Park.

These darn Drainage issues...;)

This Rivalary... well.. I really don't care what anyone says Because it personal to me. But I will say that fox.com and cnn.com have 4 lead stories.

1. The Bombing yesterday
2. The Taliban
3. The Pope
4. Yanks/Sox.

But its not about that to NY'rs and Beantown anyway. It really is between the towns. Your from Baltimore.. You know... in the North East there are many Large cities..

Baltimore, DC, Philly, NY, Newark, Hartford, Providence, Boston, et al... Plus we have Montreal rivalries as well.

This aint David n Goliath.. Believe me.. Boston Holds it own in that group..and Boston takes a Back seat to no one.


This is about the People... the grudges, the misperceptions. I'm going to bet a few races.. But before the Game tonight I'll type up what the Games mean to me...and many like me.

[Bubbles]

Make it five...Willie Shoemaker died this morning at 72.

[kenwoodallpromos]

It's on national tv!?! I don't understand why players are afraid to get hit, but when they are they refuse to rub it out! Either they can take it or not! I only pitvhed softball in college, but I let them hit it where I wanted, so beaning was not necessary!! Marichal never beaned anyone with a ball--he used a bat!!LOL!!

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764
You say Mussina was villified for not pitching inside, and your point is??..

Remind me again how he has done in the playoffs? He's been shelled!

What does that tell you?

Before this year, Mike Mussina in the playoffs was 4-2 with a 2.96 ERA. Shelled, get real. I know this is only the internet, but if you want to make stuff up, at least admit that is what you are doing. Also, 76 Ks to his 17 Ws in 70 innings. Yeah, he's really been shelled.

Even this year, he hasn't been great, but shelled, hardly.

[sq764]

CJ, please get a clue..

he's 0-2 with a 5 ERA..

If you find that to be an effective pitcher, keep your day job..

[cj]

Originally posted by sq764
CJ, please get a clue..

he's 0-2 with a 5 ERA..

If you find that to be an effective pitcher, keep your day job..

When did I say he was "effective"? I said he wasn't shelled, which he was not. Two starts and a below 5 ERA isn't being shelled.

Pedro's playoff ERA is 4.29. His ERA yesterday was 5.14. Somehow I doubt you would say he was shelled. Get some facts and stop changing what I say.

[sq764]

Well, I gave you the facts and you just don't agree with them... which is your prerogative..

I just cannot understand your relation of not throwing at people=a classy person..

[Suff]

The fact that the Yanks Bumped Wells and are Going with Mussina tonight adds another twist to tonights game...and this thread.

[sq764]

Sunday night is quarter beer night at O'Brien's pub by Fenway.. They had to scratch Wells.

[cj]

How is throwing a baseball at someone at 90+ miles per hour acceptable? Its about the equivalent of punching a defenseless person.

[sq764]

Its part of the game.. Not throwing at their head, but hitting people.. If you don't get that, then you do not understand the game of baseball.

[cj]

We agree on that point. I am talking about anything shoulder level and up. Like I've said earlier, the ribs or thigh can send a very effective message without the threat of ruining someone's career or even life. As I've said all along, my big problem is the AL pitchers being able to do it with no threat of recourse. That is what this thread was about, and why I think the DH sucks.

[sq764]

I think the problem is two-fold.. One is that MLB should totally disallow any arm protection (see Bonds, Biggio).. It gives them an unfair advantage of having no fear of getting hit and they lean inside over the plate.

Secondly, everytime someone is hit, they cry like a baby and when MLB sees their stars get hit, they have to put the pressure on the umps to not allow it to happen.. This is total crap..

Its a catch-22 situation.. If the batters feared the pitchers, the pitchers wouldn't have to throw inside.. But.. In order for the hitter to fear the pitchers, they must first pitch inside..

[CumberlandBluesHSH]

as the DH pertains to this discussion - the argument that pitchers having to hit woiuld curtail headhunting is total bunk. If you look at the numbers, the HBP rates in the two leagues are very similar - and there's only 8 guys getting plunked in the NL because the reason there's a DH is because pitchers CAN'T HIT. Very few pitchers get hit in the NL - the guy on the hill ain't gonna give up an automatic out. I think there were only 16 pitchers HBP all year in the NL.

[Dick Schmidt]

Three thoughts on the DH.

1) There have been more hit batters in the NL than the AL for the last 7 years. (L.A. Times this morning)

2) One of the more effective pitchers I've ever seen never threw inside or tried to hit a batter. He did alright for several years, though everyone knew he wouldn't "headhunt." Maybe you remember him, used to pitch for the Dodgers. Named Coldfax or Kolfax or something.

3) No one ever paid to see a pitcher bat. (at least since Ruth retired). Baseball is not a religion, it is an entertainment event, a show if you will. It is also, like horse racing, a declining sport. Anything that provided more excitement can only help.


Dick

Who prefers "The King and his Court" to most baseball.

[delayjf]

I find myself torn between sentiments here.

On one hand, I've never understood and totally disagree with the rational that supports throwing the ball at any batter even if he is "hanging" over the plate. Which is something I can't recall seeing any batter doing. To me its a sign of weakness as if to say "I can't compete with you so I'll hurt you instead."

If throwing at batters is a part of the game, isn't charging the mound also a part of the game. I've often thought about what I might do if I felt somebody threw a ball at my head. Here where some options I came up with.

- Wait until the pitcher is staring his delivery then throw the bat at him and see how he likes it.

- Time my charge to the mound just as he's starts his delivery to the plate, this way the catcher would be occupied and could not get in my way.

- Hit the catcher with the bat first, stunning but not really hurting him, then charge the mound with my bat.

- Wait till I get to first base, then charge the mound. One problem, I would not have my bat, so I would have to go for the Knees, that way my team mates won't have to face this guy in another game. After all I'm only concerned with winning the World Series and thats easier to so against inferior competition.

- Pick an opportune time to get a ball and bean him. Perhaps as I'm coming off the field inbetween innings.

Sometimes I wish others sport were played like Hockey. How great would it be to see Kobe's legs pulled out from underneath him as he goes in for a lay up. So what if somebody gets killed that why we play them the big bucks.

What a great example for the Kids.

[sq764]

With all due respect, this is a ridiculously assinine comment.

If you did any of your 'retaliation' plans to Randy Johnson, Shilling, Clemens, they would come after you and kick the crap out of you..

So.. you would have just been hit, then had the crap beat out of you.. Excellent choice..

(And hitting the catcher with the bat? What the hell is wrong with you?)

[delayjf]

I was attempting to be sarcastic, your right it is assinine, but I will say so is throwing at a batter. As far as getting the crap kicked out of me, I think I could hold my own, me and my bat. I never said I would fight fair.

[cj]

Who the hell is Randy Johnson going to beat up? And come on, its not like they are charging Lennox Lewis. Who have Clemens or Schilling ever "beat up"?

[Dave Schwartz]

Delay,

I have to disagree with you if you think that the threat of being hit has no impact on the hitters.

People that have lived any part of their life up close and personal to a 90+ mph fastball coming out of the hands of someone that MIGHT have a thought in their mind to hit you understand the impact that a little "chin music" has.

I recall when the Angels used to face the Yankees... 9th inning... Goose Gossage versus Baylor and Grich... Those two guys could not wait to get their three swings in and come back to sit down. They were just not interested in any battle with a 95 mph pelota.



Dave

[cj]

Baylor and Grich? Who brought the O's in to this? Unless you are talking after they were washed up! :D

[sq764]

I really think that anyone who hasn't been in the presence of a 90+ MPH fastball, you have absolutely no clue of the fear you feel when its coming at your head..

For most of you, it would take one time and you would say 'Screw this shit, back to my couch'..

[delayjf]

Dave,
I have no doubt that it is intimidating and I don't have a problem with pitching inside. But to throw at somebody's head like Clemons did to Piazzo is wrong. Despite the HBP stats that have been posted, if you (Clemons) have to turn around and go stand in that batters box then perhaps you'd think twice.

I'd love to know, has Clemons ever been hit by a pitch in retaliation. Has Clemons ever thrown a ball at Dave Thomas's head. Remember when that Houston player got beaned in the head (Gardner, I think), that was scary.

[cj]

The Houtston player was Bill Doran.

[sq764]

Clemens did bat in an interleague game against the Mets and the coward Mets pitcher threw behind him and missed him.

[CumberlandBluesHSH]

Dickie Thon of the Astros got beaned too.....as a Red Sox fan and also a card carrying member of the Dickie Thon Fan Club, I view that as just one more reason to hate Mike Torrez.

[Suff]

[i as just one more reason to hate Mike Torrez. [/B]

Why ? why..why....why would you EVEN utter that name on Today of all Days? Wow... Please.. Don't whammy us Mike. That Man was niether Born nor lived.

[Suff]

I have'nt seen anyone change thier Mind yet on the DH issue?

The AL has the DH. The first ten years I did'nt mind debating it. Now I don't prefer to.

I suppose now with the WS it will debated deeper.... But debating the DH adinfintitum before during and after the Game 3 incident of a Yankees/Red Sox Playoff was pounding Dirt ...IMHO


I personally think ASTRO-TURF changes the game significantly more than the DH... But debating that is useless. the NL Loves it.


I used to Exercise at the Reggie Lewis Athletic Center and
I've taken some 65-75 MPH fastball and Breaking stuff from College Players here in Boston. At that Speed the Ball is a BLIP...and quite startling when it is Pouring down on you.

Can't imagine 90+ and harder to imagine how some of these guys hit that Pitch all over the place.

I never could hit College Pitchers very well even at that speed but I did get a little more at ease after a dozen or so trips to the cage.