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judd
01-30-2011, 11:08 AM
growing up i allways went to the meadows (washington pa. ) was really into harness and had some nice scores. now i cant even look at harness ????

harness2008
01-30-2011, 11:33 AM
I do agree with you to some extent. Harness racing will be hard pressed to recapture the halcyon days of the past but it is still a great game, even with all of its problems. What is it specifically that turns you off regarding the sport? The small pools at some tracks? Not being able to grind out a profit? Regarding the latter, I can assure you that decent profits can still be made for the player that is willing to put in the time and effort as opposed to those players that merely glance at the program and make their decision in seconds. In fact, I'm hoping that most people are just glancers.

The times are changing in this sport and we all need to adapt to those changes if we choose to continue participating in this sport. The racinos have saved some racetracks from closing for good. The sport is in a decline no doubt since their seems to be no infusion of some fresh blood into the sport regarding bettors which essentially keep the tracks alive.

I commend the racetracks that are at least making an effort in these trying times like Tioga Downs and giving something back to the bettor. I've been involved with this game for 40 years so I guess I'm a lifer. I don't presently like what I see but here's hoping for some good times ahead for the sport.

heavygear
01-30-2011, 01:53 PM
When you bet a 9/5 and he is fourth and never pulls out until the final turn to get fourth with a ton of horse left. LOL

Stillriledup
01-30-2011, 03:33 PM
When you bet a 9/5 and he is fourth and never pulls out until the final turn to get fourth with a ton of horse left. LOL

Here's the thing that many harness fans don't realize. When a horse 'sits in' and saves ground on all the turns, he's going to have more pace than if he 'roughed it' on the outside. So, that horse who sat in only has a ton of horse left because he sat in. Its not like he would have the same amount of pace if he pulled the right line and quarter moved or sat on the rim.

Hanover1
01-30-2011, 06:43 PM
Marketing+takeout+lack of uniform policy= decline.

harness2008
01-30-2011, 06:54 PM
When you bet a 9/5 and he is fourth and never pulls out until the final turn to get fourth with a ton of horse left. LOL


I'll tell you that would bother me also but I have to chalk it up to variance since you will get bad rides like that unfortunately. Much like you never know if a horse is going to break or not. Not much that you can do about that other than turn the page. I can say that for the most part I really don't give much consideration to the driver in handicapping a race. With moves by drivers that lead into other moves that still lead into other moves, there is not much to do but hope that the driver of your selection is astute enough to get into a good position to make a move into the stretch. For me its mainly about the capabilities of the horse and I figure for every bad ride that I get, there will be others that sit and get up in the passing lane for me.

There's that glass half full again.

botster
01-30-2011, 10:15 PM
When you bet a 9/5 and he is fourth and never pulls out until the final turn to get fourth with a ton of horse left. LOL


Same story I have heard for the last 25 years.Their always will be some foul play in every aspect of life.Drivers and their betting and stiffing horses are just not the main issue anymore in harness racing.Different era, different art of scheming by horseman and their vets to gain the unfair advantage.

Hanover1
01-31-2011, 07:26 AM
Same story I have heard for the last 25 years.Their always will be some foul play in every aspect of life.Drivers and their betting and stiffing horses are just not the main issue anymore in harness racing.Different era, different art of scheming by horseman and their vets to gain the unfair advantage.

Sounds worse than playing carnival games.....great marketing :rolleyes:

Canarsie
01-31-2011, 09:27 AM
While I still play a little harness this score made me lower my participation level dramatically. Yes there was an investigation into this but when I tried to call Northville directly there was no phone number on their web page. :bang:


I hit this exacta at Northville look what it paid. Then look at the triple and you can't argue with the article at all.

Position Runner Win Place Show
1st 6 TEK'S RAIDER $21.60 $9.80 $6.40
2nd 4 TRUE VALUE $34.40 $10.60
3rd 5 RATHER BE A COWBOY $17.40
4th 7 BOLD RAIDER
Other Payouts
$2 EX (6/4) paid $128.60
$2 TRI (6/4/5) paid $680.40
$2 SPR (6/4/5/7) paid $3,795.40

The Bit
01-31-2011, 11:57 AM
Wow.

My Another Ouch! thread was me complaining about an exacta of mine recently.

4th choice ( 7-1 ) with the longest shot on the board from the outermost post ( 35/40-1 ). Top three choices were even money, 5/2 and around 4/5-1.

Exacta for 4th choice from the 6 hole and longest shot from the outermost post paid $248. I was shocked, in a not good way.

wilderness
01-31-2011, 01:41 PM
Pool sizes at these smaller tracks (and all tracks) are a big, big influence of payoffs.

A small pool and one decent wager by an astute handicapper could influence these small pools, leaving the perception that something wasn't on the "up and up".

Canarsie
01-31-2011, 02:39 PM
Pool sizes at these smaller tracks (and all tracks) are a big, big influence of payoffs.

A small pool and one decent wager by an astute handicapper could influence these small pools, leaving the perception that something wasn't on the "up and up".

Agreed but please explain to me why so many people were indicted?

Do you really think an astute handicapper is going to make a decent wager on an exacta like that at Northville? I find it hard to fathom because the risk reward ratio just isn't there. Mind you I knew what type of track I was betting into but it was the end of the Standardbred being my wager of choice.

wilderness
01-31-2011, 03:20 PM
Agreed but please explain to me why so many people were indicted?


AFAIK?

No press release has appeared to substantiate that anybody has been "indicted" or even arraigned on criminal charges?

I'm sure your referring to the recent Michigan-Windsor scandal?
One actual horseman and one owner were suspended by the ORC for valid issues.

The remaining five, were suspended for one year, because they refused to testify against themselves or others, or to present financial records. Even though such depositions are a requirement of their Michigan ORC licenses.

If your aware or have a URL that somebody has actually been indicted?
Please provide a reference URL?

Rather than innuendo, without substantial documentation?

wilderness
01-31-2011, 03:55 PM
Agreed but please explain to me why so many people were indicted?

This Sept 10th, 2010 the last known press announcement (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tG_FbSuXS0QJ:www.windsorstar.com/jobs/workplace/Michigan%2Bcharges%2Bpending%2Brace%2Bfixing%2Bsca ndal/3508777/story.html+www.windsorstar.com+%22Criminal+charges +on+the+Michigan+side%22&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com).

"Criminal charges on the Michigan side of a race-fixing investigation which has also affected Windsor Raceway should be forthcoming in the near future, according to the executive director of the Michigan Gaming Control Board."
end of quote

Here's it is five months later and we're still awaiting the "near future"!

Canarsie
01-31-2011, 05:05 PM
This Sept 10th, 2010 the last known press announcement (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tG_FbSuXS0QJ:www.windsorstar.com/jobs/workplace/Michigan%2Bcharges%2Bpending%2Brace%2Bfixing%2Bsca ndal/3508777/story.html+www.windsorstar.com+%22Criminal+charges +on+the+Michigan+side%22&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com).

"Criminal charges on the Michigan side of a race-fixing investigation which has also affected Windsor Raceway should be forthcoming in the near future, according to the executive director of the Michigan Gaming Control Board."
end of quote

Here's it is five months later and we're still awaiting the "near future"!


I don't see indictments you are correct on that. But how about 12, 10, and 5 year suspensions by the OHRC?

You still think that $120 exacta was made by an astute handicapper? :lol:

Also indictments have been known to take much longer then 5 months. Since you want to be so technical it's not 5 months yet. I'm pretty sure a racing indictment takes the back burner but I could be way off base on this.

But all this is apples and oranges the question I pose to you is was it an astute handicapper or a fixed race in your opinion?

The Bit
01-31-2011, 06:07 PM
Choosing not to testify or supply information screams "I'm Guilty!". Especially when it means giving up something you may do as a profession or source of income.

fmolf
01-31-2011, 06:56 PM
Choosing not to testify or supply information screams "I'm Guilty!". Especially when it means giving up something you may do as a profession or source of income.
Actions often do speak louder than mere words do!

wilderness
01-31-2011, 08:15 PM
I don't see indictments you are correct on that. But how about 12, 10, and 5 year suspensions by the OHRC?

You still think that $120 exacta was made by an astute handicapper? :lol:

Also indictments have been known to take much longer then 5 months. Since you want to be so technical it's not 5 months yet. I'm pretty sure a racing indictment takes the back burner but I could be way off base on this.

But all this is apples and oranges the question I pose to you is was it an astute handicapper or a fixed race in your opinion?

Please!

You provided race results for a Michigan race and made references to "indictments" and now your making references to Ontario fines and suspensions?

Please get your facts and deceptions straight, because you obviously are not aware of the people and borders between states and provinces, much less the fines and suspensions applicable to each jurisdiction.

WTF!

wilderness
01-31-2011, 08:23 PM
Choosing not to testify or supply information screams "I'm Guilty!". Especially when it means giving up something you may do as a profession or source of income.

Until your in their shoes and compelled to appease the questions and purebullshit of a gaming commission (people with no clue of the difference between the two ends of horse) that has eliminated all knowledgeable and experienced employees from their former Racing Commission in a budget reduction cut that entire departments staff?

Than perhaps you'll realize these meetings were simply a "hanging party".

Once again:

"Criminal charges on the Michigan side of a race-fixing investigation which has also affected Windsor Raceway should be forthcoming in the near future, according to the executive director of the Michigan Gaming Control Board."
end of quote

Here's it is five months later and we're still awaiting the "near future"!

cj
01-31-2011, 08:45 PM
I have to give you harness guys credit. Everyone that responded was smart enough to ignore stillriledup. With that alone, you have a huge leg up on us thoroughbred guys!

The Bit
01-31-2011, 09:18 PM
I'm just telling ya what it looks like. I don't care if Mary Poppins and Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz are the racing commission, choosing to sit in silence tells most people all they need to know. Right or wrong.

The Bit
01-31-2011, 09:33 PM
And when I say right or wrong, I mean whether or not it is right or wrong, that is going to be the perception.

wilderness
01-31-2011, 10:00 PM
I'm just telling ya what it looks like. I don't care if Mary Poppins and Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz are the racing commission, choosing to sit in silence tells most people all they need to know. Right or wrong.

It's quite easy to throw stones, when it's not your neck out on the chopping block.

wilderness
01-31-2011, 10:03 PM
Here's the thing that many harness fans don't realize. When a horse 'sits in' and saves ground on all the turns, he's going to have more pace than if he 'roughed it' on the outside. So, that horse who sat in only has a ton of horse left because he sat in. Its not like he would have the same amount of pace if he pulled the right line and quarter moved or sat on the rim.

I have to give you harness guys credit. Everyone that responded was smart enough to ignore stillriledup. With that alone, you have a huge leg up on us thoroughbred guys!

Automobile drivers seem to hold a different concept for horses and their drivers/riders, than they do for their own automobiles, and when they are struggling (with their car blowing all over the road) that last 25-feet to get past a semi-truck ;)

wilderness
01-31-2011, 10:10 PM
I'm just telling ya what it looks like. I don't care if Mary Poppins and Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz are the racing commission, choosing to sit in silence tells most people all they need to know. Right or wrong.

As I previously pointed out (which you apparently missed)?

Michigan no longer has a division of the State of the Michigan "formerly known" as the Racing Commission.

That department and all those jobs (as well as their longtime and experienced staff) were cut.

The duties of this former department and staff were transferred (added workload; no extra pay) over to the Michigan Gaming Commission.

I kinda doubt the majority of the Michigan Gaming Commission has ever even seen a horse race of any type.
The same for the investigators that were used to accumulate "what they might call substance"!

The Bit
01-31-2011, 10:44 PM
Ok. I don't care if Barney the Dinosaur and Mr. Ed are the Gaming Commission. To sit in silence speaks volumes, no matter who you aren't talking to.

I'm not saying they are guilty or not. I'm simply stating what the perception is when you chose not to speak.

wilderness
01-31-2011, 11:01 PM
"perceptions" are like "assholes" ;)

The Bit
01-31-2011, 11:21 PM
Yes they are. And often times folks are too quick to jump to conclusions or assumptions merely based upon what they percieve without knowledge of the situation. However, that is the reality of the world.

Canarsie
02-01-2011, 09:53 AM
Please!

You provided race results for a Michigan race and made references to "indictments" and now your making references to Ontario fines and suspensions?

Please get your facts and deceptions straight, because you obviously are not aware of the people and borders between states and provinces, much less the fines and suspensions applicable to each jurisdiction.

WTF!


Since you are so adamant and slamming everyone who voices an opinion different than yours will you please be MAN enough to answer my question.

I said you are CORRECT but apparently this isn't good enough for you.

Is the statue of limitations on indictments 5 months?

Don't disagree with him on a computer question the slamming is even worse. He knows his stuff on computers but have a different point of view and he'll try to chop your head off. Not the type of guy to have an intelligent conversation with imo.

Canarsie
02-01-2011, 10:02 AM
I just pulled this. Four years to indict Barry Bonds what's the rush?

Besides once again I said you were correct but that doesn't count.

http://s6.zetaboards.com/Fantasy_Elite_League/topic/1007006/1/

wilderness
02-01-2011, 12:26 PM
Don't disagree with him on a computer question the slamming is even worse. He knows his stuff on computers but have a different point of view and he'll try to chop your head off. Not the type of guy to have an intelligent conversation with imo.

First you "slam" every horseman within Michigan, then you utilize Ontario Suspensions and fines to "slam" more Michigan horsemen as crooks!

And all because you've no understanding of how pari-mutuel pools function!

And yet, I'm the one with a lack of intelligence, or even facts?

Gimme a break!

DONK!

Canarsie
02-01-2011, 01:34 PM
First you "slam" every horseman within Michigan, then you utilize Ontario Suspensions and fines to "slam" more Michigan horsemen as crooks!

And all because you've no understanding of how pari-mutuel pools function!

And yet, I'm the one with a lack of intelligence, or even facts?

Gimme a break!

DONK!


Your lack of intelligence still didn't answer my question.

I knew exactly how much money I could bet into Northville's pools have a program for that.

How did I slam every horsemen from Michigan I never even mentioned one drivers name? DUH!!!

This is the greatest country in the world did one person who was suspended appeal? I'm an idiot but since your so smart please tell me. I also must be an idiot because I said you were highly computer literate huh?

This is how the suspensions read.

CONDUCT DETRIMENTAL TO THE BEST INTEREST OF HORSE RACING

If I was innocent there would be an appeal immediately.

Once again for your reading pleasure I was WRONG about the indictments are you FREAKING happy?

Oh one more thing. How come almost everyone who posted here agrees with me and not you? Are you calling us ALL idiots? After all your opinion is the only one that counts right?

The Bit
02-01-2011, 04:47 PM
First you "slam" every horseman within Michigan, then you utilize Ontario Suspensions and fines to "slam" more Michigan horsemen as crooks!

And all because you've no understanding of how pari-mutuel pools function!

And yet, I'm the one with a lack of intelligence, or even facts?

Gimme a break!

DONK!

When did he "slam" anyone? He never mentions anything other than indictments, which turns out he was incorrect about and has said so.

He than speaks about suspensions by another jurisdiction, which seems relevant if the situation we are talking about and the suspensions pertain to the same people?

I bring up a point about what the public perception of these scenarios is almost always going to be when those in question chose not to speak and you start going off about bullshit gaming commisions and which end of the horse is which. You than proceed to tell me it is easy to throw stones when it isn't my neck in the chopping block. Huh? When did I throw stones?

And since we are own the topic of gaming/racing commissions, I have to wonder if they still had an actual racing commission if we would have seen some indictments already? Maybe if an actual racing commission did the investigation instead of a gaming commission that "has never seen a horse race of any type" we would have indictments? Ever consider that?