The NYRA's new Lasix program

[The_Knight_Sky]

Starting on Wednesday, January 26, veterinarians for The New York Racing Association, Inc. (NYRA) will administer Lasix to horses on race day.

“This important integrity measure will eliminate the need for private veterinarians to enter horses’ stalls on race days,” NYRA President and CEO Charles Hayward said.

“Combined with the expanded in-house drug testing program that was instituted last summer, we are very pleased with the progress made to protect the integrity of NYRA racing.”

Full press release (http://http://www.nyra.com/aqueduct/stories/Jan202011.shtml) by Dan "the man" Silver.

[The_Knight_Sky]

I know it's a slow Thursday... But zero comments about this move?

This could have a major effect in the performances of many outfits
currently racing in New York. For a "lab experiment", let's see how
this leader board changes through February, March and April.

Leading Trainers at Aqueduct

Starting Date: 01/01/2011 Ending Date: 01/19/2011

Name Starts 1st 2nd 3rd Earnings
Gary C. Contessa 35 9 2 4 $187,843
Chris J. Englehart 21 7 7 1 $129,150
Todd A. Pletcher 24 7 2 5 $270,916
David Jacobson 27 4 2 5 $89,450
Carlos F. Martin 17 4 1 2 $72,913
Steven M. Asmussen 9 4 1 1 $77,770
Richard E. Dutrow, Jr. 18 3 7 4 $140,100
Kiaran P. McLaughlin 10 3 4 1 $121,040
Rudy R. Rodriguez 31 3 2 3 $81,017
Michael E. Hushion 9 3 2 0 $111,215
John P. Terranova, II 11 3 1 1 $65,178
H. James Bond 10 3 1 1 $41,077
Thomas Albertrani 7 3 0 0 $82,760
Jeff Odintz 20 2 3 3 $66,492
Linda Rice 16 2 2 4 $62,825
Bruce N. Levine 11 2 1 3 $42,673
Chad C. Brown 4 2 1 0 $66,250
David G. Donk 8 2 1 0 $30,100
Charlton Baker 7 2 1 0 $26,814
Richard E. Schosberg 6 2 0 2 $47,250

[cj]

It is a good thing, and hopefully starts a trend.

[chickenhead]

Sounds like a great move.

[highnote]

It is a good thing, and hopefully starts a trend.


I hope so. For a long time lasix was not allowed in NY while every other major racing jurisdiction allowed it. NY finally had to give in.

Just because lasix can stop a horse from bleeding does not mean the horse should be given lasix. Maybe the horse should not be racing in the first place.

Sadly, it comes down to economics and not what is in the best interest of the animal.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I believe Ontario has been doing it this way for years.

[Robert Fischer]

they did the original cost-cutter move when they eliminated the security barn in July 4-5 months at least they are making the proper moves.

This could actually be really positive if it "accidentally" leads to a similar approach in cleaning up other loop-holes. :ThmbUp:

[IRISHLADSTABLE]

http://www.nyra.com/aqueduct/stories/Jan202011.shtml

Great Move Step in the Right Direction

[Mineshaft]

so who was giving Lasix to the horses if the vets were not? Were you allowed to give your horse lasix yourself?

[PICSIX]

so who was giving Lasix to the horses if the vets were not? Were you allowed to give your horse lasix yourself?

They will be NYRA veterinarians only, no private vets. :)

[The_Knight_Sky]

They will be NYRA veterinarians only, no private vets. :)


I assume the costs of this program will be picked up by the
New York Racing Association. Nonetheless, it should be interesting
to see which trainers raise a stink about it. ;)

The good thing is that the actual doses of the administered Lasix
will be spot on from race to race since it will be administered by a neutral party.
That is not to say other drugs, er "medication" will not be administered
by the barn vets.

If a barn had relied on certain levels of furosemide to "mask" other
drugs in their horses system, those procedures become obsolete.
By no means will this be fool-proof, but it's a clear step forward for horse racing. :ThmbUp:

[Tom]

Third party administrations or at least verification - owner pays the bill.
It is his responsibility to provide legitimate runners for which he receives purse money. Make him prove it. Third party verification is nothing new in business.
We have to pay dearly to prove we follow the ISO 9001 rules - our customers do not pay to make sure we do.

This should not be limited to race days.

[onefast99]

Third party administrations or at least verification - owner pays the bill.
It is his responsibility to provide legitimate runners for which he receives purse money. Make him prove it. Third party verification is nothing new in business.
We have to pay dearly to prove we follow the ISO 9001 rules - our customers do not pay to make sure we do.

This should not be limited to race days.
Why limit it to race days? If a horse needs lasix to work there should be no question that the horse gets it. My only question is what will be the minimum lasix injection 2cc's? And yes the owner pays for the lasix it is a nominal charge of $15-25.00

[The_Knight_Sky]

Third party administrations or at least verification - owner pays the bill.

It is his responsibility to provide legitimate runners
for which he receives purse money. Make him prove it.




That makes sense.
I can imagine many trainers would pass on "bills for Lasix"
and other items to their owners with no questions asked.

The more I get feedback regarding this matter, the more I like this move by NYRA. Horse Owners should be paying for only the bills incurred. The next step is to determine what will be the standard dosage amount.

While no two horse's bleeding problems are alike, I still think one standard amount should be administered. If this amount of Lasix fails to stop severe bleeding then the horse should be turned out to recuperate or retired altogether.

[Tom]

Now let me ask a question - once a dosage is known to be effective, say 5 uints for sake of argument, what if the next time out the horse gets 2 units?
Who knows? Then he comes back with 5 units again?

Can this happen, and if it does, what does it do to the "form" of the horse?

[onefast99]

Now let me ask a question - once a dosage is known to be effective, say 5 uints for sake of argument, what if the next time out the horse gets 2 units?
Who knows? Then he comes back with 5 units again?

Can this happen, and if it does, what does it do to the "form" of the horse?
It depends on the horse, lasix has led to thumping(similar to hiccups in a human) in certain nervous type horses so the vet will cut back from 5cc to 2cc's and pre-treat the horse with calcium jugs as well as added supplements in his feed.

[Tom]

I'm thinking more of intentionally making the horse look bad by withholding the drug,, then giving the full shot - all the form will say is lasix last time, lasix today.

[onefast99]

I'm thinking more of intentionally making the horse look bad by withholding the drug,, then giving the full shot - all the form will say is lasix last time, lasix today.
Good point but NYRA wouldn't do that.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Tom - I wouldn't call it uncommon for dosages to vary slightly from race to race for varying reasons - but I'm hard pressed to think that it is very likely that anyone would intentionally induce bleeding and then count on the horse running any good at all next time when some money was down. Bleeders suck. I don't like training them and don't like betting on them. It's no fun for the horse whatsoever and some of them will let you know just how little they enjoy it from then on whether they actually bleed or not.

[onefast99]

Tom - I wouldn't call it uncommon for dosages to vary slightly from race to race for varying reasons - but I'm hard pressed to think that it is very likely that anyone would intentionally induce bleeding and then count on the horse running any good at all next time when some money was down. Bleeders suck. I don't like training them and don't like betting on them. It's no fun for the horse whatsoever and some of them will let you know just how little they enjoy it from then on whether they actually bleed or not.
A known bleeder isn't going to get less than 5cc's. And a whole bunch of other stop bleed type medications. Just ask a few of those trainers at Penn national how they pour that stop bleed into some of these horses and eventually it acts like a radiator stop leak and the horse has a heart attack. One of our vets who is from the old school uses a combination of vitamin c and k and premarin to treat bleeding. As we all know a chronic bleeder is a problem, some of the mid-west vets have been using the hyperbaric chamber to control bleeding but the cost is high.

[joanied]

A known bleeder isn't going to get less than 5cc's. And a whole bunch of other stop bleed type medications. Just ask a few of those trainers at Penn national how they pour that stop bleed into some of these horses and eventually it acts like a radiator stop leak and the horse has a heart attack. One of our vets who is from the old school uses a combination of vitamin c and k and premarin to treat bleeding. As we all know a chronic bleeder is a problem, some of the mid-west vets have been using the hyperbaric chamber to control bleeding but the cost is high.

This vitamin combo is interesting...could you explain why premarin is included?

I think this is a move in the right direction for NYRA, but I also think that no horse should be given lasix that hasn't bled...will they give lasix to horses that so far are non bleeders?

I think there should also be a cut off for bleeders...if a horse continues to bleed after the max dose of lasix is given, then that horse needs to be taken out of training...will this be part of the new rule?

[onefast99]

This vitamin combo is interesting...could you explain why premarin is included?

I think this is a move in the right direction for NYRA, but I also think that no horse should be given lasix that hasn't bled...will they give lasix to horses that so far are non bleeders?

I think there should also be a cut off for bleeders...if a horse continues to bleed after the max dose of lasix is given, then that horse needs to be taken out of training...will this be part of the new rule?
It is actually the female hormone estrogen, when used with lasix it lowers the blood pressure and acts as a coagulant. I haven't seen it used in quite a long time, Kentucky Red seems to be something a few vets are now using.

[Cardus]

"I know it's a slow Thursday... But zero comments about this move?"

Since this was a major, substantive change that addresses a fundamental problem with racing, of course there were no comments at that point.

It's a good move, and I do not see the downside.

[joanied]

It is actually the female hormone estrogen, when used with lasix it lowers the blood pressure and acts as a coagulant. I haven't seen it used in quite a long time, Kentucky Red seems to be something a few vets are now using.

I know what premarin is:) I was just curious about it being used as part of a bleeder fix...IMO, mixing it up as a bleeder medication just sounds strange, but reading your reply, seems it isn't used any longer.
Lowering a horses blood pressure in general seems like a bad idea anyway...I don't think that's a good thing to do for a horse that is in competition, it would not allow the horses body to control the blood pressure in a natural occuring way during competition, and would in turn, possible lead to an irregular heart beat?

[magwell]

Not using lasix on a horse is like not using your seat belt till after you have a accident, it is a preventative action, before it was legal we fed them noxizone [a diuretic] and took their water away the night before a race to keep them from bleeding......btw for some horses 5 cc's is too much and for some its not enough.

[OTM Al]

Not using lasix on a horse is like not using your seat belt till after you have a accident, it is a preventative action, before it was legal we fed them noxizone [a diuretic] and took their water away the night before a race to keep them from bleeding......btw for some horses 5 cc's is too much and for some its not enough.

So how do the horses in the rest of the world manage? Bad bleeders get ruled out which is in the end good on the breeding end.

[joanied]

Do they have bleeders in Europe? They don't use lasix, so I guess the horses that do bleed, don't race? As far as I know, we're the only country using lasix...
use it as a preventative...as in use it on horses that have never bled, but one day might?
I don't think it should be used unless a horse does bleed, and then, IMO, at the lowest does, and if that horse continues to bleed, he should not be allowed to race.

[cj]

So how do the horses in the rest of the world manage? Bad bleeders get ruled out which is in the end good on the breeding end.

Exactly. It worked in New York for a long time too. It is just crazy that nearly all first time starters debut with Lasix now.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Do they have bleeders in Europe? They don't use lasix, so I guess the horses that do bleed, don't race? As far as I know, we're the only country using lasix...
use it as a preventative...as in use it on horses that have never bled, but one day might?
I don't think it should be used unless a horse does bleed, and then, IMO, at the lowest does, and if that horse continues to bleed, he should not be allowed to race.

Again, furosemide isn't the only treatment. You can't use bute in some North American jurisdictions either... that just means there are a lot more bottles of serapin in the truck for a lot of folks... I've (let's say) seen a few bad bleeders that got a single cc of lasix because they were listed on it, but got plenty of those other "adjunct meds" with greater success than doubling up on Lasix or using estrogen as a legal alternative.

I was never big on the idea of eliminating lasix after several decades of both human and equine dependency... but as bad as it is making the breed, the unrestrained use of every vaso-this-or-that drug that hits the market is making the trainers twice as useless as the horses. We've got guys now that specialize in destroying horses through their vascular system because Pfizer or AstraZeneca gets a trillion dollar idea once a week.

[joanied]

Again, furosemide isn't the only treatment. You can't use bute in some North American jurisdictions either... that just means there are a lot more bottles of serapin in the truck for a lot of folks... I've (let's say) seen a few bad bleeders that got a single cc of lasix because they were listed on it, but got plenty of those other "adjunct meds" with greater success than doubling up on Lasix or using estrogen as a legal alternative.

I was never big on the idea of eliminating lasix after several decades of both human and equine dependency... but as bad as it is making the breed, the unrestrained use of every vaso-this-or-that drug that hits the market is making the trainers twice as useless as the horses. We've got guys now that specialize in destroying horses through their vascular system because Pfizer or AstraZeneca gets a trillion dollar idea once a week.

Not sure what serapin has to do with bleeders, I know they use it to treat navicular pain...and can imagine how it's used/abused by trainers for other things...

100% agree...I sometimes wonder if any of them give a $hit that they are helping to make the TB more and more fragile...and in the process, they're cutting off their own noses to spite their faces, because they are helping to destroy the very animal they make their living off of...makes no sense to me.

[johnhannibalsmith]

[/b]

Not sure what serapin has to do with bleeders...

It has nothing to do with bleeders. Slow down...

If you tell me I can't run on bute, I'll go get me some serapin and block the damn thing.

If you tell me I can't run on Lasix, I'll go get me some (pick a poison) and stop it meself.

That's what serapin didn't have to with bleeding in that context. Just a simple visual that I thunked might've could've made the point (to me).

[johnhannibalsmith]

Back to the original point... of the thread... excellent attempt at doing something... if you can take away the justification for that private vet going in a stall with a tray full of needles on raceday, you're certainly headed the right way...

[DeanT]

Now let me ask a question - once a dosage is known to be effective, say 5 uints for sake of argument, what if the next time out the horse gets 2 units?
Who knows? Then he comes back with 5 units again?

Can this happen, and if it does, what does it do to the "form" of the horse?

Here is it same amount all the time. I dont know how much. I do know it is $45 up here I believe. ORC vets must do the deed. If your horse messes up on it, you get an allergic to lasix note.

The horses have to be in the lasix area to get their shot something like four hours before post. They stand around and urinate constantly for a few hours.

[DeanT]

Back to the original point... of the thread... excellent attempt at doing something... if you can take away the justification for that private vet going in a stall with a tray full of needles on raceday, you're certainly headed the right way...

I was shocked when I saw private vets could do it in some places. That seems odd to me.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I was shocked when I saw private vets could do it in some places. That seems odd to me.

It was probably a sensible idea in theory when you had twenty-some horses at times all jumping, shimmying, and farting in the middle of the road in front of the test barn. It was a logistics nightmare the way they did it and it was brutal on some horses.

Unfortunately, the transition was made at time when it wasn't nearly as common for a private vet to roll in three times between 4 hours out and 2 out with milkshakes, B1CalMag injectibles, Lactanase, Red, ACA, the ole I.T. (I love the smell of camphor), and on and on and on...

There are a whole lot of people that throw the sink at them in large part because someone else is doing it for them. Forcing (well, making an effort at it...) those people to shoulder a lot more risk and a lot more accountability if they want that job done is probably a needed step at this point.

[DeanT]

I didnt know they were using half that brown bottle crap still. What the hell is IT? Never heard of it.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...What the hell is IT?...

I.T. ... acronym describing its method and location of delivery - traditionally camphor and a dab of epi to help the airways... today's brave souls have been known to try to integrate a little ventipulmin into the concoction if they are reasonably sure the labs may not be as busy at this point in the fiscal year.

[DeanT]

I.T. ... acronym describing its method and location of delivery - traditionally camphor and a dab of epi to help the airways... today's brave souls have been known to try to integrate a little ventipulmin into the concoction if they are reasonably sure the labs may not be as busy at this point in the fiscal year.

You learn something new every day. Although with this stuff I wish I didnt learn about it sometimes.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

In Ontario, lasix is administered by a vet technician hired by the ORC, unless a trainer want their own vet to do it (because the horse might be a bad actor when it comes to injections).
However, private vets (ORC approved though) can do same day pre-race, which I believe is taboo at NYRA.

[joanied]

It has nothing to do with bleeders. Slow down...

If you tell me I can't run on bute, I'll go get me some serapin and block the damn thing.

If you tell me I can't run on Lasix, I'll go get me some (pick a poison) and stop it meself.

That's what serapin didn't have to with bleeding in that context. Just a simple visual that I thunked might've could've made the point (to me).

:bang: (we really need a face palm emoticon)...OK, then, a little slow :blush: on the uptake, but I get your well made point.
True, true, if they're gonna cheat, they're gonna cheat...where there's a will, there's a way...
this is very radical, but maybe every barn's tack room needs to be gone through and anything labeled illegal, anything that could be abused, should be taken away...and that would leave it to the vets only to administer anything of that type.
When I was working on the backside the tack room had those big ol' bute tablets and a bottle of Bells...that was the extent of drugs kept on hand.

[The_Knight_Sky]

(we really need a face palm emoticon)...http://i55.tinypic.com/e13dqx.gif




There's always something available for every internet conversation.

I had to steal that one from Barn to Wire forum in the dead of the night. :sleeping:

[Tom]

This one can be helpful at times, too. :D

[The_Knight_Sky]

That's cute Tom.

Rex Ryan's wife after a foot massage.

[onefast99]

That's cute Tom.

Rex Ryan's wife after a foot massage.
You hear the latest on NJ? Go get some info you may be surprised!

[The_Knight_Sky]

You hear the latest on NJ?
Go get some info you may be surprised!




Actually I'd be surprised to get ANY info after last Wednesday's NJRC meeting.
The thoroughbred dates haven't been settled.
I guess they're waiting for the rotund guy in Trenton to sign the bill.

Other than that Jeff Gural was at The Meadowlands on Friday night with Sam McKee. Here's hoping nobody stands in his way and that includes building a new grandstand on the otherside - which would enable Sunday simulcasting.

[joanied]

There's always something available for every internet conversation.

I had to steal that one from Barn to Wire forum in the dead of the night. :sleeping:

:D Thanks, Knight Sky...guess what...I just stole it in broad daylight:jump: