Horizontal wagers: what about those late scratches?

[DJofSD]

Do you prefer to recieve the post time favorite when a late scratch happens in a horizontal wager? Why? Why not?

I don't. I would like to be able to select in advance an alternate in the event one of my selections was scratched. Quite often, my selection would represent a bet against the favorite and to then get it as one of my picks due to a late scratch is completely contrary to the position I am taking.

[Stillriledup]

If there's technology to select an alternate, i'm all for that. If not, i prefer to see the scratched horses money go to the post time favorite.

[cj]

The only fair thing to do is refund the money, but it is another thing bettors have learned to take in the shorts.

[CBedo]

In general I only play the doubles and pick 3s when I think there is value. Occasionally that's a favorite at 9/5 who I make even money, but more likely it's when I think the favorite is vulnerable; so of couse I don't want him when one of my horses scratches. I'll take a refund every time. It would suck from time to time when you hit a couple nice horses and your next horse scratches, but at least it would be consistent.

[Kevroc]

Definitely would love to see alternate selections available for pick threes and pick fours...

If my alternate if also scratched, then give me the fave.

[CBedo]

I'd also add that I hate all the consolation payoffs. Have you ever tried to parse the BRIS results files? :bang:

[Spiderman]

Betting is a free choice. A late scratch in horizontal wagering should be refunded. Consolation prices are a win-win for both player and race track.

[DJofSD]

What reason, if any, is there not to allow the bettor to indicate ahead of time either of these two options: any late scratch cancel the bet with full refund, or, use alternative pick/picks that I have selected?

Is the lack of these alternatives just another reflection of the out dated tote system? Or are there legitimate (i. e. legal) reasons why punters can not have these options?

[rastajenk]

How many alternatives would you be allowed?

Imagine being in line trying to bet and the person right in front of you says:

"Pick Four, in the first leg 1-5-6, in the second leg 4-8-10, with the one as first alternate, three as the second; in the third leg, 2-4, with the 3-5 as alternates; and in the fourth leg, 1-2-5-8, with 3 as the alternate if the 2 is out, but 6 as the alternate if the 5 or 8 scratch...and just give me a full refund if the one gets scratched."

I don't think there's really much demand for that kind of tote technology update. Honestly.

[DJofSD]

Good question. I would think a reasonable restriction would be to use bet cards for these options.

[chickenhead]

I probably favor refunds but it is a sticky issue.

It would put more pressure (seemingly) on tracks against vet gate scratches. if monies left the pools in large numbers each time it happened I'd guess it would happen less.

Do you refund live tickets only, or all tickets? I.E if you've already missed a leg, or multiple legs, you get your money back or do we leave that in the pool for the winners?

If you have 5 of 5 and your single scratches in the last, you get a refund or consolation 5 of 6?

I can imagine a lot of unhappiness if a 1/9 scratches out of a pick 6 sequence, more than already happens. Its not even good news for those who are covered elsewhere, as the pool is now empty.

[Fingal]

Definitely would love to see alternate selections available for pick threes and pick fours...

If my alternate if also scratched, then give me the fave.

Maybe it's a reason to make those kind of bets in California on track. On the bet cards you can select an alternate instead of just getting the favorite.

[DJofSD]

I probably favor refunds but it is a sticky issue.

It would put more pressure (seemingly) on tracks against vet gate scratches. if monies left the pools in large numbers each time it happened I'd guess it would happen less.

Do you refund live tickets only, or all tickets? I.E if you've already missed a leg, or multiple legs, you get your money back or do we leave that in the pool for the winners?

If you have 5 of 5 and your single scratches in the last, you get a refund or consolation 5 of 6?

I can imagine a lot of unhappiness if a 1/9 scratches out of a pick 6 sequence, more than already happens. Its not even good news for those who are covered elsewhere, as the pool is now empty.
Yes, it can become a sticky wicket.

However, why not give the bettor the option to decide what he wants instead of a blanket rule?

Again, perhaps I am not understanding some important law or other restriction.

Going to an extreme, I can envision a multitude of options. The current default is any scratch you get the post time favorite. Next option: any late scratch, cancel the bet, full refund. Next, a series of options on each and every leg: (1) a scratch, take the post time favorite, (2) a scratch, change the bet to use a bettor selected alternate, (3) any scratch in the specific leg, cancel the entire bet with full refund.

Then, to make it even more complicated, do you allow for these dynamic changes if the ticket is already dead, e.g. P6 single in an earlier leg runs out but then in a later leg, a scratch results in execising the option to void the entire bet.

Sure, it changes the total amount of money in the pool, but, so what? It's not like there is any guarentee of a minimum pool size will be violated. You are already betting blind with no realistic expectation of what the probably pay out will be for a winning ticket.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

The way I look at it, I don't think the fact that late scratches get replaced by the favorite stops anyone from betting horizontals. If it prevented a significant amount of players from betting under the current rules (in most jurisdictions) then it would need to be changed.

But if it is true that it doesn't curtail any betting, then from the track's perspective, why give refunds (that can be bet at another track or pocketed if late in the card) if the public isn't demanding it with their wallets?

It is still a business.

That being said, my guess is that when it happens to me or anyone, in the long run, this rule probably doesn't hurt anyone's ROI in the long run on these type of bets.

[rastajenk]

And then you could extend the courtesy of changing your bet even if you're not directly affected by a late scratch. You handicapped the last leg to be a two horse speed duel and you select something else to win with a come from behind effort. One of the speed horses scratches, now you like the lone speed. Can you change your ticket?

Sometimes the status quo is OK. :p

[CBedo]

The way I look at it, I don't think the fact that late scratches get replaced by the favorite stops anyone from betting horizontals. If it prevented a significant amount of players from betting under the current rules (in most jurisdictions) then it would need to be changed.

But if it is true that it doesn't curtail any betting, then from the track's perspective, why give refunds (that can be bet at another track or pocketed if late in the card) if the public isn't demanding it with their wallets?

It is still a business.

That being said, my guess is that when it happens to me or anyone, in the long run, this rule probably doesn't hurt anyone's ROI in the long run on these type of bets.The reality is that it's just one more risk factor in the wager that should make you bump up the needed return to be an overlay (no idea if its .01 or 100.00).

[Greyfox]

The technology should be in place to allow you to have an alternate in each leg.
It can't be that difficult to do.
The contest on this board has demonstrated that.
Good idea DJofSD. :ThmbUp:

[DJofSD]

The technology should be in place to allow you to have an alternate in each leg.
It can't be that difficult to do.
The contest on this board has demonstrated that.
Good idea DJofSD. :ThmbUp:
Well, let me respond this way: I'm a computer geek with expertise on a number of different areas. I can see how I would write a program to implement a series of choices like what I outlined above. But then there is the admonition: just because you can do something does not mean you should.

Again, let me have the ability to decide how I want to have my wager made. One size doesn't fit all.

[cj]

I probably favor refunds but it is a sticky issue.

It would put more pressure (seemingly) on tracks against vet gate scratches. if monies left the pools in large numbers each time it happened I'd guess it would happen less.

Do you refund live tickets only, or all tickets? I.E if you've already missed a leg, or multiple legs, you get your money back or do we leave that in the pool for the winners?

If you have 5 of 5 and your single scratches in the last, you get a refund or consolation 5 of 6?

I can imagine a lot of unhappiness if a 1/9 scratches out of a pick 6 sequence, more than already happens. Its not even good news for those who are covered elsewhere, as the pool is now empty.

I guess if races have been run the fair thing is to give conso payoffs if alive, and none if the ticket is dead...you lose.

Even alternates seems lame to me. If I wanted those horses, I would have used them in the first place.