So this "Dutrow" horse runs it's 3rd race in 8 days;

[sammy the sage]

today at Laurel...and wins for fun in a Stakes race...what do ya'll think?

Native Dancer S.
1 Mile | Open | 4 Year Olds And Up

# HORSE JOCKEY WIN PLACE SHOW
2 Laysh Laysh Laysh E. Rodriguez $6.20 $3.80 $3.00
8 No Advantage M. Chaves $4.40 $3.00
9 Global Force H. Vega $3.40

Times in 5ths: :243 :472 1:12 1:242 1:372

Times in 100ths: :24.78 :47.54 1:12.08 1:24.54 1:37.45

Winning Trainer: Dutrow, Jr. Richard | Owner: Scuderi Vincent

[cj]

I think he is spotting him well.

[Striker]

Similar situation this summer at Saratoga with El Real Madrid starting on 8/18 for Dutrow but for Clm 25k not in stakes. Horse ran 3 times in 8 days showing 1 2nd and then won the next 2 races, one for 25k and the next for 35k and was claimed from him 8/26. Horse hasn't had a published workout or raced since then.

[gm10]

today at Laurel...and wins for fun in a Stakes race...what do ya'll think?

Native Dancer S.
1 Mile | Open | 4 Year Olds And Up

# HORSE JOCKEY WIN PLACE SHOW
2 Laysh Laysh Laysh E. Rodriguez $6.20 $3.80 $3.00
8 No Advantage M. Chaves $4.40 $3.00
9 Global Force H. Vega $3.40

Times in 5ths: :243 :472 1:12 1:242 1:372

Times in 100ths: :24.78 :47.54 1:12.08 1:24.54 1:37.45

Winning Trainer: Dutrow, Jr. Richard | Owner: Scuderi Vincent

I've done some research into this last year, and horse who come back within 4 days do amazingly well. Presumably most of these horses are razor sharp.

[The Bit]

Anyone remember Golden Man ( I think? ). Ran in the Longbranch at Monmouth on a Saturday at Monmouth and shipped to Delaware and ran in a stakes race there on Sunday?

Not sure on the year or 100% sure of horse and races, but he did it. I believe I have it right though.

[cj]

I've done some research into this last year, and horse who come back within 4 days do amazingly well. Presumably most of these horses are razor sharp.

It has been like this for a LONG time.

[gm10]

It has been like this for a LONG time.

That's what I always heard too, but as they say in the Russian army "Trust, but verify".

[cj]

That's what I always heard too, but as they say in the Russian army "Trust, but verify".

They say that in the US Air Force, too.

[chipandrun]

Anyone remember Golden Man ( I think? ). Ran in the Longbranch at Monmouth on a Saturday at Monmouth and shipped to Delaware and ran in a stakes race there on Sunday?

Not sure on the year or 100% sure of horse and races, but he did it. I believe I have it right though.


Year was 2005. Ran 3rd on Sarurday and 2nd on Sunday.

[njcurveball]

I've done some research into this last year, and horse who come back within 4 days do amazingly well. Presumably most of these horses are razor sharp.

For the last 2 years, 520 horses came back with 4 days rest, 64 won. around 12% or pretty much around average.

ROI was a loss of 7 cents on the dollar, a little better than average. 2 and 3 days rest did even worse.

Maybe on certain circuits, some trainers do better. Overall it takes more to show a profit.

[IRISHLADSTABLE]

N.Y. Trainer Oscar S. Barrera, Jr. was know for doing this all the time

Other trainers were leery of claiming from Oscar.

He would claim a horse run it 3 times in 10 day period

Win 2 races and once the horse was claimed from him it was ever the same horse .

Must have been the " Juice" Oscar was giving them

Jimmy

[classhandicapper]

The idea that sharp horses that come back quick don't do well is one of the biggest fallacies of the game. They have a statistical advantage. You can argue that if you keep doing that you'll eventually wear the horse out and that injuries will accumulate, but that's more of long term issue.

[cj]

ROI was a loss of 7 cents on the dollar, a little better than average.


A little better? Say what?

[njcurveball]

A little better? Say what?

A little better then thinking it is doing well. But if a 7 cent loss on the dollar is to your taste, then I guess it is good for you.

Enjoy!

[cj]

A little better then thinking it is doing well. But if a 7 cent loss on the dollar is to your taste, then I guess it is good for you.

Enjoy!

Touchy, eh? Betting any horse at random would lose you about 25%, so 7% is definitely not a little better. It is substantially better. You'd won't find many clear cut single factors that come close to that.

A few very simple eliminations turns it into a VERY profitable angle. Feel free to ignore it if you wish, I don't mind.

[TheGhostOfOscarB]

Who doesnt think that Ricky is nothing more than a modern day Oscar who speaks a little better English?

[gm10]

For the last 2 years, 520 horses came back with 4 days rest, 64 won. around 12% or pretty much around average.

ROI was a loss of 7 cents on the dollar, a little better than average. 2 and 3 days rest did even worse.

Maybe on certain circuits, some trainers do better. Overall it takes more to show a profit.

Admittedly, my research was based on UK data. The win % was a bit better.

I've had a look at US data for the last two years. I get

859 horses
win at 11.1%
ROI of -0.4%

Not bad.

[thaskalos]

That's what I always heard too, but as they say in the Russian army "Trust, but verify".They say that in the Greek army too:

"Trust everybody...but cut the cards."

[stu]

Watch and see if he can do it again.

Indio Rooster is enterred in an AN1X on Thursday and an AN2X on Saturday.

[gm10]

They say that in the Greek army too:

"Trust everybody...but cut the cards."

Can they still afford an army in Greece?!?

[igiveupregistering]

Who doesnt think that Ricky is nothing more than a modern day Oscar who speaks a little better English?

I don't.

IF, IF YOU followed nyra, you would know that quick turnarounds are a patented RDutrow move.
He does this quite often when he has the horse.

Dutrow has been using this angle in the 10 years' I've been following nyra.

[BlueShoe]

Im stretching my memory a bit, but wasnt it Dutrow that had a horse a couple of years ago named Reptilian Smarts that he kept running back on very short rest, winning several times with him? Love this angle; coming off of a sharp win and coming back very quickly, seven days or less are best bet types, provided they pass the usual handicapping analysis.

[stu]

Im stretching my memory a bit, but wasnt it Dutrow that had a horse a couple of years ago named Reptilian Smarts that he kept running back on very short rest, winning several times with him? Love this angle; coming off of a sharp win and coming back very quickly, seven days or less are best bet types, provided they pass the usual handicapping analysis.

The horse ran on less than two weeks rest twice in his life and won both of them.

Monmouth Park 6/20/10 Race 2 Claiming - 16 days rest

Monmouth Park 6/04/10 Race 10 Allowance Optional Claiming - 13 days

Monmouth Park 5/22/10 Race 6 Claiming - 69 days

Aqueduct 3/14/10 Race 7 Starter Allowance - 28 days

Aqueduct 2/14/10 Race 1 Claiming - 43 days

Aqueduct 1/02/10 Race 3 Allowance Optional Claiming - 212 days

Belmont Park 6/10/09 Race 8 Allowance Optional Claiming - 26 days

Belmont Park 5/15/09 Race 7 Allowance Optional Claiming 26 days

Aqueduct 4/19/09 Race 8 Allowance Optional Claiming - 34 days

Aqueduct 3/18/09 Race 3 Starter Handicap - 47 days

Aqueduct 1/30/09 Race 3 Starter Handicap - 21 days

Aqueduct 1/09/09 Race 1 Starter Handicap - 33 days

Aqueduct 12/07/08 Race 5 Claiming - 3 days WON

Aqueduct 12/04/08 Race 9 Claiming - 5 days WON

Aqueduct 11/29/08 Race 1 Claiming - 139 days PLACED

Belmont Park 7/13/08 Race 6 Allowance Optional Claiming - 21 days

Belmont Park 6/22/08 Race 3 Allowance Optional Claiming - 56 days

Aqueduct 4/27/08 Race 3 Allowance Optional Claiming -18 days

Aqueduct 4/09/08 Race 8 Allowance Optional Claiming - 20 days

Aqueduct 3/20/08 Race 8 Allowance Optional Claiming - 106 days

Aqueduct 12/05/07 Race 8 Allowance Optional Claiming - 143 days

Delaware Park 7/15/07 Race 10 Barbaro Stakes - Gr.3 - 37 days

Belmont Park 6/08/07 Race 10 Hill Prince Stakes - Gr.3 - 62 days

Aqueduct 4/07/07 Race 8 Wood Memorial Stakes - Gr.1 - 16 days

Aqueduct 3/22/07 Race 8 Allowance Optional Claiming - 19 days

Aqueduct 3/03/07 Race 6 Maiden Special Weight - 50 days

Aqueduct 1/12/07 Race 2 Maiden Special Weight - 34 days

Aqueduct 12/09/06 Race 6 Maiden Special Weight - 35 days

Calder 11/04/06 Race 4 Maiden Special Weight

[windoor]

Back in ten days or less is one of my factors when looking at spot plays.

I have a total of twenty such factors. Getting them in the proper order of importance (still a work in progress) has taken me forty years.

Regards,

Windoor

[Fastracehorse]

Back in ten days or less is one of my factors when looking at spot plays.

I have a total of twenty such factors. Getting them in the proper order of importance (still a work in progress) has taken me forty years.

Regards,

Windoor

........on the Calder circuit too.

But I like it anywhere.

fffastt

[exiles]

They say that in the Greek army too:

"Trust everybody...but cut the cards."

Arhisane kai mas thoulevoune ta Amerikanakia, Thaskale.

[thaskalos]

Arhisane kai mas thoulevoune ta Amerikanakia, Thaskale.Mi hirotera adelfe mou...etsi opos katantisame...

[Hambletonian]

was exported to the US Virgin Islands and is now a superstar down there.

[Pell Mell]

I knew a guy back in the fifties that couldn't get a bookie in town to take his action. He only bet repeaters coming back in 5 days or less. And yes, he got plenty of plays.

[CBedo]

I knew a guy back in the fifties that couldn't get a bookie in town to take his action. He only bet repeaters coming back in 5 days or less. And yes, he got plenty of plays.In the fifties, I think the average time between starts was much less, so it doesn't surprise me that he had plenty of possible bets.

I remember when I was young at either Delta or Evangeline watching a horse run back on one day's rest after a seemingly grueling pace battle where he faded to last, but the second spot there was nooone to go with him and he walked home with a nice payoff.

[Gallop58]

While I love the idea of horses running more frequently, it does beg the question or comment on correlation does not mean causality.

Are they run back because they are good and sharp?
Or do they run back well because of the quick turnback?
(I personally believe that it's actually both and that many "normal" horses would benefit from a quick turn once in a while (just my opinion))

I at least like how Dutrow tries it. Some others never even get close to 4 days. That never made sense to me as you see the quick turns in UKand Australia all the time, even at the highest level.

[Gallop58]

It's also been theorized that the quick turn from sprint to route is more effective than the route to sprint. Any data behind that? Or are most of them sprint to sprint?

[Pell Mell]

Does he have a possible bridge jumper in today's 7th @ LRL?

Personally, it is entries like this that drives me to not bet so many races. This could be a nice competitive betting race except for Dutrow's entry.

This was my point in another thread about the creative race conditions being tried by the racing sec. at GG.

JMO, but I think these kinds of entries also cause a lot of scratches.

[Equifan]

In yesterday's (1/20/11) 8th @ GPX Dutrow had Sr. Henry, finished 4th.
"Henry" was already on my watch-list and I'll track him another start or two...

[Greyfox]

today at Laurel...and wins for fun in a Stakes race...what do ya'll think?



Yeah, yeah, I've read all of the posts above.
Personally, I think that a horse that is successful after running 3 races in 8 days is defying what physiologists tell us shouldn't happen.
Dutrow must have some pretty good electrolyte replacement ideas or whatever else is in his arsenal.

[cj]

I can never find proof, but I know I remember reading about a horse winning in Maryland during the day, and later that night at Penn.

[Greyfox]

I can never find proof, but I know I remember reading about a horse winning in Maryland during the day, and later that night at Penn.

My guess would be Harness racing??

[cj]

My guess would be Harness racing??

No, and they don't run harness at Penn. I'm pretty sure it was a Leatherbury horse.

[Greyfox]

No, and they don't run harness at Penn. I'm pretty sure it was a Leatherbury horse.

So far via the internet I've found that long ago horses used to run in heats and then compete 3 hours later for an ultimate winner.
Also I've found the following:

"Virago won the City and Suburban Handicap (probably 10 furlongs) and the Great Metropolitan Handicap (probably 18 furlongs) at Epsom on 6th April 1854.
Also the Great Metropolitan Handicap was run twice on the same day in 1903 and was won by Wavelet's Pride each time."

[wisconsin]

In the old days, a stakes horse would arrive by train in the morning, have a workout over the track, then race later in the day.

I've seen harness horses run 3 heats, sometimes 4 in the same day. These are more rare nowadays.

[bobbyt62]

I can never find proof, but I know I remember reading about a horse winning in Maryland during the day, and later that night at Penn.
if it was during the 80's, i do remember whom you're talking about, but you're off by one day. it was a horse called "owl and tree" or owl in tree, maybe. trained by king leatherbury. he raced the prior day at lrl/pim/tim, and the NEXT night at penn. he won at penn, but i believe he had lost in md. also, in the same era, cute little story-------erie downs (formerly commodore) was revived for a few years of TERRIBLE racing, but it was in the "eastern" form, which didn't always jibe with the "midwest" form---eastern was broadsheet from new jersey, midwestern was tabloid from chicago. so iwent to erie one night, and the next day, i went to thistledowns, and saw that larry reed had a horse entered that had run the previous night at erie downs. the "midwest" form, however, did not show that he had been entered the night before at erie downs. BTW, he had run well at erie without winning. at tdn, i kept waiting for an announcement that the horse was scratched, or that he had run the prior night at erie downs. one race before he was to go, nothing had been declared either way. goody two shoes me, i went to the racing secretarys' office and informed them about the horse running with a "line" missing. i had been an intern in the publicity dept. during college, so they knew i was not a crank. they verified the horse had run the previous night and announced it. the horse went of lower than he would have otherwise, but ran 3rd or 4th. i wish i could recall the horse's name, since it was likely THE SHORTEST run back in history, as he ran at NIGHT, then the next DAY. probably 16 hours.

[Jackal]

If running a horse every few days was dangerous there would be no racehorses left in Australia. The practice was common in the US 20 years ago. Many trainers feel that if a horse needs a breeze it should be in a race. They just don't do it because owners wouldn't approve.

[CBedo]

If running a horse every few days was dangerous there would be no racehorses left in Australia. The practice was common in the US 20 years ago. Many trainers feel that if a horse needs a breeze it should be in a race. They just don't do it because owners wouldn't approve.Running a healthy horse every few days might be different from running a sore, drugged up horse every few days...

[andicap]

I think he is spotting him well.

I see more than a little sarcasm here! :D

[andicap]

That's what I always heard too, but as they say in the Russian army "Trust, but verify".

I love this expression. Reagan used it with the Russians in the '80s on nuclear arms talks. It really means, "I don't trust you.":)

[cj]

I see more than a little sarcasm here! :D

Actually, I wasn't this time. I love when guys run fit horses right back. I've never been a big believer in the bounce, at least not to the level of many others. Strike while the iron is hot because you never know how long a horse will stay healthy.

[Tom]

I remember the old Oscar days.
A FL trainer had a horse entered at Aqueduct in the first race.
I ran into the owner at the simulcasting and he told me he liked his horse today.

I asked him which race.
He said "He's running in the first."
I said "He's running in the seventh, too, but Barrera is the new owner!":D

[Linny]

Short rest was once the norm. By the 70's it was rare. How about Woody running Conquistador Cielo in the Met Mile on Monday and right back in the Belmont that Saturday?

Run 'em when their good was his motto and it worked.

[BlueShoe]

Short rest was once the norm. How about Woody running Conquistador Cielo in the Met Mile on Monday and right back in the Belmont that Saturday?
Once very common was running a colt in the Derby Trial and coming right back to go in the Derby. Up until the early 80's it was run on Tuesday, thus they were racing back in 4 days. Five colts won the Trial and then the Derby, the last Tim Tam in 1958. Several more lost in the Trial but won the Derby. In modern times it has been rare for a colt to race in the Trial and then come back in 7 days to go in the Derby. Even rarer is for him to do well and have any impact.

[cj]

Once very common was running a colt in the Derby Trial and coming right back to go in the Derby. Up until the early 80's it was run on Tuesday, thus they were racing back in 4 days. Five colts won the Trial and then the Derby, the last Tim Tam in 1958. Several more lost in the Trial but won the Derby. In modern times it has been rare for a colt to race in the Trial and then come back in 7 days to go in the Derby. Even rarer is for him to do well and have any impact.

Not only that, but the big preps have all been pushed back from 2 weeks from the Derby to three or four.

[Fastracehorse]

..did a chat on the NYRA site a few months back

the guy answered questions as well as can be expected; he alluded to the fact people think horses need more rest between races; he didn't say he agreed with this - leading me to wonder if he would prefer to run some of his back sooner than is popular w/ current conventions on the subject

fffastt

[Gallop58]

Can't find the original TB Times piece, but I grabbed this of a 'net reference.


Irish bred galloper Masafi has done what no other galloper has done before and win seven races from seven starts in 18 days.
Masafi took the record off David Chapman's sprinter Chaplins Club, who won seven out of nine starts in 19 days in 1985.

Masafi hadn't raced since November 2003, when he resumed at Lingfield UK on March 14 running second, a short head behind Marnie.


His incredible record then started on July 12 when he won at Southwell over 1600m, beating Mexican by four lengths, ridden as he has been in all seven wins by Seb Sanders (33).


Four days later on July 16 he went out an 8/11 favourite beating Third Empire by a length at Carlisle over 1900m.

July 19 saw him start at 9/10 over 2000m and this time he scorched home by seven lengths from Forge Lane.


On July 22 bookies were not going to let him get away and they sent him out at 1/7.

No worries to this three-year-old though, he won by three lengths from Little Eye over 1900m.


Ok, time for a rest? No way. Next day July 23 off he went back to Southwell where this time at 1/10, he scored a length and a half victory from Arran over 1600m.

It was holiday time after that win – and after a five day break, Masafi headed out to Musselburgh on July 28, started at 9/13 and again scored an emphatic victory, this time by seven lengths from Joey Perhaps.


This was considered a ‘low-grade handicap’ but no matter, to win your sixth start in 17 days is quite a feat for any horse.

The following day July 29 (who said horses can’t back up?) he headed back to Carlisle.


Bookies thought that perhaps this was it, he couldn’t win seven straight and sent him out at the lucrative odds (well for him) of 4/6.


This was without doubt his toughest ask to date, but despite an increase in weight of 10.5kgs since his first win, he was too strong and recorded a length and a half win from Goodbye Mr. Bond over 1900m.

Masafi is trained by Sir Mark Prescott at Heath House, Newmarket, who has had no qualms about racing the youngster this many times.

Prescott is renowned as being shrewd, clever and capable of winning big race gambles.

Masafi must be a dream come true for Prescott followers. No matter how short a horse is, a consistent winner is a consistent winner.

Masafi (Desert King(IRE) from Mrs Fisher(IRE) (Salmon Leap (USA)) will attempt to make it eight straight at the August 4th meeting at Brighton in the John Smith´s Brighton Mile Challenge Trophy (Class D) (Rated Stakes) (Handicap).

“The only thing we are concerned about is the handicapper," said Prescott.

"He’s certainly well enough to run."

Masafi's owner-breeder Graham Waters is no stranger to records. He owned Spindrifter who has the record for 10 consecutive wins on the Flat as a two-year-old in 1980 and won a total of 13.

[Gallop58]

And here's an interesting note I've recalled from the late Tom Ivers. During his lifetime he liked to work on optimal conditioning/racing protocols. I guess this is from something he tried with an owner/trainer he consulted with back in the day (1980-90's I assume)

"We know that route to sprint worked spectacularly on a 1 day turnaround once--5 wins on a Saturday at 6F for a trainer who raced them all on Friday at routes.", Ivers

[andicap]

The major issue might be more getting races that he wants to enter to fill. He races lots of allowances horses -- those races tend to have shorter fields, except for maybe on the grass.



..did a chat on the NYRA site a few months back

the guy answered questions as well as can be expected; he alluded to the fact people think horses need more rest between races; he didn't say he agreed with this - leading me to wonder if he would prefer to run some of his back sooner than is popular w/ current conventions on the subject

fffastt