60 minutes to profile big time sports bettor

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm sure this would be of interest to many of us here...show just started because of Jets game here on the East Coast...looks like it's going to be the last story...so you have time...

If this has been posted already, my apologies in advance...

[098poi]

I just started another thread. You can delete mine if you want.

[Grits]

This should be interesting!! In the opening comments of the show, he states his largest bet, I believe, was 3 1/2 million on the Super Bowl.

Lord, have mercy.:faint:

[lamboguy]

billy walters is the computer man.

[sonnyp]

betting in vegas over the last decade has been an interesting endeavor. over the past few years, homeland security, I.C.E, and other federal agencies have "busted" horseplayers and sent them to jail for moving money through casinos into pools. horseracing is a legal betting proposition in most of the lower 48 states and yet the government chose to interperate the laws so as to prosecute and convict horseplayers.

this guy is on t v bragging about betting 3.5 million on a superbowl. there is only 1 place to bet sports, legally, in this country....vegas. does anyone believe he can move all his sports bets in vegas ?

how does he avoid the scrutiny that befell those horseplayers ? interesting ....isn't it ?

[Grits]

Nice segment on a man who started out dirt poor in Kentucky, born to a mother of three, by the time she was 17, who as he said, "wasn't around much." Teaching himself how to shoot pool. Pretty amazing.

Looks like he's not only of extraordinary wealth, but that his wealth has helped a LOT of people who otherwise may not have been the beneficiaries of such.

Sonny, maybe those other whales weren't or aren't as detailed or as good at what they do as he is.

Lara Logan was enjoying her assignment, too.

Nice jet. Beautiful paint job.

[098poi]

Lara Logan was enjoying her assignment, too.


I noticed that too. Looked like she had a crush on him or something. I guess having a private jet helps.

[Stillriledup]

Here's an article about BW and Poker player Phil Ivey and how they lost a bundle on the Super Bowl.

http://www.covers.com/articles/articles.aspx?theArt=181547

[thaskalos]

Here's an article about BW and Poker player Phil Ivey and how they lost a bundle on the Super Bowl.

http://www.covers.com/articles/articles.aspx?theArt=181547What an injustice it is to put Brandon Lang's name in the same sentence with Billy Walters'.

Lang is a fraud, who has cost his gullible clients millions of dollars...while Billy Walters is a true legend in the gambling world.

[cj]

I liked the part about when there was a discrepancy between the Vegas line and his line. To paraphrase his answer when asked what he does when this happens, "bet more".

This is exactly where I was going with the other thread "Odds too high?"

[lamboguy]

he is the very best roulette player i have ever heard of in my life. he beat the golden nugget in atlantic city out of $3 million in a weekend!

[Stillriledup]

What an injustice it is to put Brandon Lang's name in the same sentence with Billy Walters'.

Lang is a fraud, who has cost his gullible clients millions of dollars...while Billy Walters is a true legend in the gambling world.

Right! I hear you.

[thaskalos]

I liked the part about when there was a discrepancy between the Vegas line and his line. To paraphrase his answer when asked what he does when this happens, "bet more".

This is exactly where I was going with the other thread "Odds too high?"Agreed...how could a man like Billy Walters operate properly, if he was paranoid about the lines moving against his opinion?

[cj]

he is the very best roulette player i have ever heard of in my life. he beat the golden nugget in atlantic city out of $3 million in a weekend!

There is no strategy I've ever heard of that has a positive expectation in roulette. The way to be the best player is to never play. Maybe I'm wrong and someone can enlighten me.

[lamboguy]

There is no strategy I've ever heard of that has a positive expectation in roulette. The way to be the best player is to never play. Maybe I'm wrong and someone can enlighten me.he sent 2 guys to atlantic city to scout the roulete wheels at the golden nugget to figure out the bias to the wheel when steve wynn called on a sunday night to see how the place was doing, they told him that they were doing great except for a roulette player. he asked who the player was and was told it was b. walters. he immediately had the roulette wheels closed. he had them taken out with 2 wheelers to be inspected and could not find anything to them except for the bias to spin certain numbers.

walters had walked into the hotel on a friday night and never checked into his suite. he went directly to the roulette wheel and only left to go to the bathroom until the wheel got closed down. wynn paid him and barred him from every casino that he owned at the time.

[cj]

he sent 2 guys to atlantic city to scout the roulete wheels at the golden nugget to figure out the bias to the wheel when steve wynn called on a sunday night to see how the place was doing, they told him that they were doing great except for a roulette player. he asked who the player was and was told it was b. walters. he immediately had the roulette wheels closed. he had them taken out with 2 wheelers to be inspected and could not find anything to them except for the bias to spin certain numbers.

walters had walked into the hotel on a friday night and never checked into his suite. he went directly to the roulette wheel and only left to go to the bathroom until the wheel got closed down. wynn paid him and barred him from every casino that he owned at the time.

OK, fair enough, he took advantage of a faulty wheel.

[Stillriledup]

he sent 2 guys to atlantic city to scout the roulete wheels at the golden nugget to figure out the bias to the wheel when steve wynn called on a sunday night to see how the place was doing, they told him that they were doing great except for a roulette player. he asked who the player was and was told it was b. walters. he immediately had the roulette wheels closed. he had them taken out with 2 wheelers to be inspected and could not find anything to them except for the bias to spin certain numbers.

walters had walked into the hotel on a friday night and never checked into his suite. he went directly to the roulette wheel and only left to go to the bathroom until the wheel got closed down. wynn paid him and barred him from every casino that he owned at the time.


He did nothing wrong except win, i dont know how Vegas is allowed to kick out a person just for being 'lucky'

[Stillriledup]

Agreed...how could a man like Billy Walters operate properly, if he was paranoid about the lines moving against his opinion?

He bets so much that he can make a large play, lets say 50 grand on the side he hates and then slam 500k on the side he really likes when the line moves.

[The Hawk]

There's a book out called "Smart Money" that was written by one of his runners. It gives him a fake name but it's definitely about him. It's a decent read if a little tedious (the guy details EVERY bet he made over the course of several months) but it gives you a good idea of how this guy operates. Pretty cool.

[magwell]

There's a book out called "Smart Money" that was written by one of his runners. It gives him a fake name but it's definitely about him. It's a decent read if a little tedious (the guy details EVERY bet he made over the course of several months) but it gives you a good idea of how this guy operates. Pretty cool. Your right it had to be him, it was a good read if your a sports player........;)

[lamboguy]

He did nothing wrong except win, i dont know how Vegas is allowed to kick out a person just for being 'lucky'
what do you expect vegas do, sit back and watch this guy clean them out? he wasn't lucky, he beat them with a bias on a roulette wheel.

walter's didn't play in one of wynn's hotels in vegas, he went to atlantic city. he got them because they gave him a high max on the wheel there.

[Robert Goren]

No casino or any other place that lose when you win is going let winners continue to play. That is why they ban card counters.

[thaskalos]

He bets so much that he can make a large play, lets say 50 grand on the side he hates and then slam 500k on the side he really likes when the line moves.Because of the success of the "Computer Group", and other sophisticated betting syndicates, it is very difficult to place very large bets on sporting events in Las Vegas.

The really large wagers are now placed online...with illegal bookmakers overseas.

[horses4courses]

Met BW, briefly, here in Tahoe in the early 90s.
Quiet, unassuming guy. As sharp as they come in the gambling world, though.

He had some guys moving some money in the sportsbooks here for a while.
Small potatoes for him, though, compared to the other irons in the fire.

Took a hefty 6-figure sum from the casino here in the 80s.
Sectioning on a biased wheel. The house never thought they could lose at roulette. Gave them a pricey little wake up call!

I missed 60 Minutes tonight. Maybe I can dig it up online.
Thanks for the heads up!

[bigmack]

A story of someone betting adult dollars through a semi-covert operation from a "home office war room" is of interest to this poster but more importantly let's talk L2.

I figure if she's willing to court some cat with a bent nose like M.Ware, there's a sliver of hope for a guy not unlike me. :jump:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/hsoiinb.png

[Stillriledup]

what do you expect vegas do, sit back and watch this guy clean them out? he wasn't lucky, he beat them with a bias on a roulette wheel.

walter's didn't play in one of wynn's hotels in vegas, he went to atlantic city. he got them because they gave him a high max on the wheel there.

I made a mistake on the Vegas thing, it was AC.

As far as the bias goes, it was THEIR fault. It was THEIR bias.

[lansdale]

I liked the part about when there was a discrepancy between the Vegas line and his line. To paraphrase his answer when asked what he does when this happens, "bet more".

This is exactly where I was going with the other thread "Odds too high?"

Hi CJ,

Thaskolos is right, roulette can be beaten through wheel bias. If you're interested, you can check out 'The Eudaemonic Pie' by Thomas Bass which recounts the experiences of a group of then-post-docs at, I believe, UC Santa Barbara, as they developed and executed strategies to beat the casino at the roulette wheel. These were fairly bright guys, who later made key contributions in the field of chaos theory, with Nobel laureate Murray Gell-Mann among their mentors. They went to develop quantitative models for the financial world, eventually selling their company to USB, an experience Bass also described in 'The Predictors'.


Cheers,

lansdale

[lansdale]

No casino or any other place that lose when you win is going let winners continue to play. That is why they ban card counters.

Hi Robert,

Casinos don't mind losing small amounts, but, as you say, they don't like to lose major coin. Every casino has it's own choke point, though, and it's possible to extract fairly respectable sums before being made to feel unwelcome. Worth remembering that the percentage of players who can play well enough to maintain a consistent edge is extremely small.

Cheers,

lansdale

[Johnny V]

betting in vegas over the last decade has been an interesting endeavor. over the past few years, homeland security, I.C.E, and other federal agencies have "busted" horseplayers and sent them to jail for moving money through casinos into pools. horseracing is a legal betting proposition in most of the lower 48 states and yet the government chose to interperate the laws so as to prosecute and convict horseplayers.

this guy is on t v bragging about betting 3.5 million on a superbowl. there is only 1 place to bet sports, legally, in this country....vegas. does anyone believe he can move all his sports bets in vegas ?

how does he avoid the scrutiny that befell those horseplayers ? interesting ....isn't it ?
It was brought up that that he was arrested 4 times in the past and the charges of money laundering and bookmaking were mentioned. He said he was never convicted of any of the charges in spite of them continually trying to convict him. So he definitely has come under some scrutiny in the past.

[Robert Goren]

Hi Robert,

Casinos don't mind losing small amounts, but, as you say, they don't like to lose major coin. Every casino has it's own choke point, though, and it's possible to extract fairly respectable sums before being made to feel unwelcome. Worth remembering that the percentage of players who can play well enough to maintain a consistent edge is extremely small.

Cheers,

lansdaleI saw a card counter banned playing at $5 table. It is very hard to stay below the radar. Although I will say that the higher the stakes, the more the scrutiny.

[sammy the sage]

I saw a card counter banned playing at $5 table. It is very hard to stay below the radar. Although I will say that the higher the stakes, the more the scrutiny.

many years ago...that happenned to me...:lol:...wasn't funny at the time...in hindsight...caused a move to better and bigger things

[TexasDolly]

The story as Lambo told it is pretty much on except that Wynn was in AC at the time and had actually offered BW a ride to NYC which Billy at first accepted then later told Wynn that he was on a lucky streak and thought he would stay and play another day or two. He was up 2 mil at the time and added another 1 1/2 mil to his win.
He was,in his earlier years, a very good golfer and could shoot around 75 or so regardless of the money involved . He later won the Pro-Am portion at Pebble Beach,in 2007 or 08, playing to an 11.

[lamboguy]

The story as Lambo told it is pretty much on except that Wynn was in AC at the time and had actually offered BW a ride to NYC which Billy at first accepted then later told Wynn that he was on a lucky streak and thought he would stay and play another day or two. He was up 2 mil at the time and added another 1 1/2 mil to his win.
He was,in his earlier years, a very good golfer and could shoot around 75 or so regardless of the money involved . He later won the Pro-Am portion at Pebble Beach,in 2007 or 08, playing to an 11.he paid 2 guys to watch the roulette wheels in wynn's hotel in jersey for 6 weeks.i got the story from one the guys that did it. they charted everything on every wheel in the place. they actually had it broken down to what numbers were more likely to come out at different times of the day. there were other people before walters to try the same thing, but they usually got thrown out of the casino before they had the chance to play the wheel. i have no idea how wynn let 2 guys stand around and watch roulette wheels for 6 weeks without making a move, and then let a pro like walters walk into the casino and take him down for $3 million. thats the part that is pretty fishy to me!

[delayjf]

Pardon my ignorance - but what do you mean by "moving money"

[lamboguy]

Pardon my ignorance - but what do you mean by "moving money"
i don't know if this question is directed to me, but moving money would be betting on sporting events at the proper odds or point lines to the player. since every book only wants to take a limited exposure or hazzard to an event, the large player must spread his bets out to all the various books that take the acton. in the case that we have been talking about from the 60 minutes piece, they claimed that the wagers would go to the casino sports books in nevada.

[DeanT]

There's a book out called "Smart Money" that was written by one of his runners. It gives him a fake name but it's definitely about him. It's a decent read if a little tedious (the guy details EVERY bet he made over the course of several months) but it gives you a good idea of how this guy operates. Pretty cool.

Good book. I thought too it was him.

For those who missed the Mike Maloney interview in HP mag it's on the blog. http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2011/01/mike-maloney-interview.html

He spoke that we need a guy like this in racing to be profiled, but there are so few.

There are several guys like this at Betfair who trade racing, like Peter Webb (http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2010/12/06/channel_man_turns_over_quarter_billion_on_betfair/). Allan Woods (the late AW) in HK and Benter. But very few guys that sit around double TV screens and bet racing, that would be profiled on 60 M.

[The Hawk]

Good book. I thought too it was him.



It's definitely him, Dino. I believe he's even admitted to it. Michael Konik is the author.

[Dave Schwartz]

The other day I was getting a haircut (I can ill-afford to get too many cut at once these days as they are becoming a bit scarce) and ran across an old issue of ESPN magazine.

A database of dreams
What would you do if you invented the perfect sports-betting tool?

Tom Stryker lives on a quiet block in Granger, Ind., a suburb of South Bend. He has a buzz cut, smiles easily, coaches his 10-year-old son's baseball team and sits with his 7-year-old daughter when she has strep throat. A baseball player at Indiana in the early 1980s, he's now in his mid-40s and needs reading glasses when he stares at his computer, which he does often. Because contrary to appearances, Stryker is keymaster for what may be the world's most valuable sports handicapping database.


http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/insider/news/story?id=5867417&action=login&appRedirect=http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/insider/news/story%3fid%3d5867417

[Dave Schwartz]

I just realized that this is a pay-for member site. Sorry, I was unaware.

The gist of the story (I talked the hair cutter out of the magazine) was that this guy always wanted to develop a database for betting football. He had tracked 27 variables of his creation going back to the 1980s by hand.

Then he found a programmer who wrote software for him. When it was all finished he decided to sell 7 copies of the database for $15,000 each to his best friends in order to pay the programmer. Apparently, the database users are highly successful.


Dave

[BlueShoe]

many years ago...that happenned to me...:lol:...wasn't funny at the time...in hindsight...caused a move to better and bigger things
During my years as a serious player was usually cagey enough to fly under the radar. Was never barred, but was backed off on two occsions, and shuffled up on numerous times. Todays enhanced casino surveilance and countermeasures make it much more difficult for counters to avoid detection for any length of time.

[sonnyp]

contrary to the "old" days, when the original binion would actually "gamble" with the customers, the "new three pieced suited" vegas has NONE OF THAT !!!!

try to find a line that varies more than half a point at any time on any game at any place within the city limits. you wont. if one place moves the number, they all move it. then, of course, the modern trend that no "real bookmaker" would stoop to.....shading a number. this means that rather than go from 3 to 3 1/2 or from 7 to 7 1/2 the chicken sh-ts start with the -120, -130 etc. nonsense. try to bet a good chunk of money ($10,000 or up) and the bells, whistles and lights all go off. the manager has to call the president to o k the bet.

vegas has become a joke. you can bet more in your hometown at the "candy store".

casino rules:

1. you must not and cannot beat the house. if you do, your business will not be required.

2. see rule # 1.

nobody in vegas is looking to take a lot of this guys action, especially with his attempts to manipulate the numbers to get that which he is really looking to play.

so where does he play ?

[lamboguy]

the good old days are gone in vegas. all hose bets are parimutual. in case you can beat them in sports you can't win much. in short, there is no good reason to be in vegas unless you are there for a convention or want to see some show.

[rgustafson]

It's definitely him, Dino. I believe he's even admitted to it. Michael Konik is the author.

For those into audio books, Michael Konik put out one of "The Smart Money."
I came across it somewhere a few years ago and bought it. It encompasses 5 cds with a running time of approximately 6 hours.

[thaskalos]

the good old days are gone in vegas. all hose bets are parimutual. in case you can beat them in sports you can't win much. in short, there is no good reason to be in vegas unless you are there for a convention or want to see some show.It was worse for horseplayers, when the horse bets there were not parimutuel...

I remember my first trip to Las Vegas...in the mid 1980s.

I wanted to bet $300 to win on a grass horse named Boca County Kid, running at Arlington Park.

I was standing at the counter in the sportsbook at Caesars Palace, right behind a sports bettor...and I watched this sports bettor collect $50,000 in cash and chips, for his winning wager.

When my turn came, and I announced my bet to the teller...he asked for manager approval.

When the manager arrived, he looked at the board for my horse's odds - which were 9/2 - and he told me that, at those odds, he could only accept $100 of my bet.

I was stunned...and quickly told him that I had just watched another player collect $50,000, without any problem.

He smiled at me, and told me that "sports were different"!

I realized, then and there, how honest OUR sport was considered to be - by Las Vegas casinos.

[lamboguy]

It was worse when the horse bets were not parimutuel...

I remember my first trip to Las Vegas...in the mid 1980s.

I wanted to bet $300 to win on a grass horse named Boca County Kid, running at Arlington Park.

I was standing at the counter in the sportsbook at Caesars Palace, right behind a sports bettor...and I watched this sports bettor collect $50,000 in cash and chips, for his winning wager.

When my turn came, and I announced my bet to the teller...he asked for manager approval.

When the manager arrived, he looked at the board for my horse's odds - which were 9/2 - and he told me that, at those odds, he could only accept $100 of my bet.

I was stunned...and quickly told him that I had just watched another player collect $50,000, without any problem.

He smiled at me, and told me that "sports were different"!

I realized, then and there, how honest OUR sport was considered to be - by Las Vegas casinos.its not a question of being honest or not. i always knew i was in trouble when the teller yelled out "approval". i used to get them on first time starters, i was always the first one in and they took my action and then stopped the followers. but my best story was when they were switching over to parimutuel and i had a place that still booked house Q's. i had already been thrown out of the place and i had seen a teller for the place, he told me they had just got rid of the race and sports book manager. so he told me to come in. the teller introduced me to the new guy as one of the best custmers in the place. this was the guys 1st day there. i bet 2 races which were the double, and both house q's. i lost the double but hit the 2nd house Q. it came back close to limit. i went back the next day and they fired the new guy after i got them.

[Stillriledup]

It was worse for horseplayers, when the horse bets there were not parimutuel...

I remember my first trip to Las Vegas...in the mid 1980s.

I wanted to bet $300 to win on a grass horse named Boca County Kid, running at Arlington Park.

I was standing at the counter in the sportsbook at Caesars Palace, right behind a sports bettor...and I watched this sports bettor collect $50,000 in cash and chips, for his winning wager.

When my turn came, and I announced my bet to the teller...he asked for manager approval.

When the manager arrived, he looked at the board for my horse's odds - which were 9/2 - and he told me that, at those odds, he could only accept $100 of my bet.

I was stunned...and quickly told him that I had just watched another player collect $50,000, without any problem.

He smiled at me, and told me that "sports were different"!

I realized, then and there, how honest OUR sport was considered to be - by Las Vegas casinos.


I remember going back many years ago, before the days of simulcasting, i was seriously following one track and one track only. I was in Vegas and went in there to hammer the windows. Something i liked about the idea of taking vegases money and not the money of other horseplayers. I got a rush out of knowing they were booking MY bet, i had the attitide of "ok, you wanna book my action, i'll show you".

I made a nice score for a few grand on a win bet (longshot) and exa box and i went NUTS. I went absolutely crazy in the sportsbook. This was a race later in the day, hardly anyone was there except me and my buddy and we wrecked the place. I let them have it with both barrels. I think that me rubbing salt into their faces, and then waltzing up there cashing for 5 grand (when 5 grand was a lot of money), made them want to keep booking my action, i guess i p'd them off enough where they weren't going to tell me to take a hike.

[sonnyp]

I remember going back many years ago, before the days of simulcasting, i was seriously following one track and one track only. I was in Vegas and went in there to hammer the windows. Something i liked about the idea of taking vegases money and not the money of other horseplayers. I got a rush out of knowing they were booking MY bet, i had the attitide of "ok, you wanna book my action, i'll show you".

I made a nice score for a few grand on a win bet (longshot) and exa box and i went NUTS. I went absolutely crazy in the sportsbook. This was a race later in the day, hardly anyone was there except me and my buddy and we wrecked the place. I let them have it with both barrels. I think that me rubbing salt into their faces, and then waltzing up there cashing for 5 grand (when 5 grand was a lot of money), made them want to keep booking my action, i guess i p'd them off enough where they weren't going to tell me to take a hike.


very little chance this really happened

[Stillriledup]

very little chance this really happened

Yes, i often make it a habit of lying on message boards and just making up stories, so you're right, you got me.

[highnote]

nobody in vegas is looking to take a lot of this guys action, especially with his attempts to manipulate the numbers to get that which he is really looking to play.

so where does he play ?


I had the same question.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I thought that when he was asked if there is anything he wouldn't bet on, he was going to say "horse racing, the takeout is too damn high."

[cj]

I had the same question.

Some places take his action because they then have a jump on the competition with a better line. One casino guy mentioned it last night, and it is also in the aforementioned book.

[classhandicapper]

I was never a sports bettor in my life, but after spending a few years studying advanced stats for basketball just to understand the game better (I'm a huge fan of the NBA) I started betting on the games this year. I'm already convinced it's a massively easier way to make a buck than at the track. The same is probably true of other sports also, but I don't know anything about them.

[judd]

anyone notice--he never mentioned betting the ponies :D :lol:

[magwell]

Never spoke about since he could move the lines that he middles a lot of games, and that's where the big scores happen.....:cool:

[Zman179]

I realized, then and there, how honest OUR sport was considered to be - by Las Vegas casinos.

In the late 1980's the race fixers in Northern California would often slam Vegas books; it got so bad that the circuit was completely taken off the board until the pari-mutuels came in (along with the trotters from Garden State which was also blacklisted). In "Beyer for Speed" on page 204, Andy mentioned one Vegas bookmaker who publicly stated, "I'd rather book professional wrestling than a race from Golden Gate Fields."

[cj]

In the late 1980's the race fixers in Northern California would often slam Vegas books; it got so bad that the circuit was completely taken off the board until the pari-mutuels came in (along with the trotters from Garden State which was also blacklisted). In "Beyer for Speed" on page 204, Andy mentioned one Vegas bookmaker who publicly stated, "I'd rather book professional wrestling than a race from Golden Gate Fields."

Was this around the time one of the top jocks (Hansen?) mysteriously disappeared?

[lamboguy]

anyone notice--he never mentioned betting the ponies :D :lol: he bet horses with both hands when it was non parimutual. that guy don't miss a trick.the best way i can ever describe bill walters is simple, WHEN I WAS GOING TO SCHOOL, HE WAS COMING HOME

[Charli125]

I was never a sports bettor in my life, but after spending a few years studying advanced stats for basketball just to understand the game better (I'm a huge fan of the NBA) I started betting on the games this year. I'm already convinced it's a massively easier way to make a buck than at the track. The same is probably true of other sports also, but I don't know anything about them.

It is much easier to make a buck. The only reason I don't bet sports anymore is that I don't live in Vegas, and I don't feel like dealing with Johnny Law.

[sonnyp]

It is much easier to make a buck. The only reason I don't bet sports anymore is that I don't live in Vegas, and I don't feel like dealing with Johnny Law.


this government's position on gambling is a travesty.

[Charli125]

this government's position on gambling is a travesty.

It sure is. I'm re-reading the book called, The Odds, and it really highlights the stupid political bs that has caused it to be illegal. I'm not sure why our government is so fixated on making things illegal that would bring a lot of revenue to state/federal coffers.

[Pace Cap'n]

For anyone who would like to read about the original Computer Group, and B. Walters involvement in it, here is a seriously l-o-n-g article...

www.offshorebettor.com/images/COMPUTER.htm (http://www.offshorebettor.com/images/COMPUTER.htm)

"The men and women of the Computer Group had been pioneers in their field. All the Computer Group did, apparently, was wager money on college football and basketball games, but for five hysterical years they did it better than anyone else ever had. It was almost as if they had invented junk bonds. Every season the cash arrived by the millions, all because their computer told them which teams should be favored to win everything from the mammoth Ohio State-Michigan football game to the basket-ball game pitting Monmouth against Fairleigh Dickinson. The Computer Group did not fix games. It simply understood them."

[lansdale]

I saw a card counter banned playing at $5 table. It is very hard to stay below the radar. Although I will say that the higher the stakes, the more the scrutiny.

Robert,

I don't know what your experience is, but I've played as a solo counter, worked with a spotter, and also with small teams over the course of three decades.

What you mean by 'banned', I'm not sure, but there are several layers of countermeasures that casinos will typically take before they 86 or 'trespass' a counter. Since the stakes were so small in the incident you describe, my guess is that it might have involved cheating or that this player might simply have been an undesirable from the casino's perspective. Generally speaking, most casinos have no interest in anyone who's playing less than black, regardless of whether they're winning or losing. Although, with some smaller casinos, green is enough to provoke scrutiny.

How do most pro players stay under the radar? By playing no more than an hour in any one casino. This amount of time won't give the casino definitive evidence on whether the player is a skilled counter, and they don't want to risk losing a 'civilian' by mistaking one for a counter. Of course, pit personnel being what they are, this still happens, and the stupidity through which the casino thus loses money is a source of vast amusement to counters.

There seems to be a certain amount of misinformation here on the difficulty of making money counting, but I can guarantee you it's a vastly easier way to make money than horserace handicapping, though not nearly as much fun. As you probably realize, this is true in spades for poker. I don't know if you saw the film '21', but if you can ignore the Hollywood nonsense about round-the-clock strippers and constant partying, the demonstration of the mechanics of the way a count team works were roughly accurate. And remember, these guys did take millions of dollars out of the casinos over the years.

Cheers,

lansdale

[thaskalos]

Robert,

I don't know what your experience is, but I've played as a solo counter, worked with a spotter, and also with small teams over the course of three decades.

What you mean by 'banned', I'm not sure, but there are several layers of countermeasures that casinos will typically take before they 86 or 'trespass' a counter. Since the stakes were so small in the incident you describe, my guess is that it might have involved cheating or that this player might simply have been an undesirable from the casino's perspective. Generally speaking, most casinos have no interest in anyone who's playing less than black, regardless of whether they're winning or losing. Although, with some smaller casinos, green is enough to provoke scrutiny.

How do most pro players stay under the radar? By playing no more than an hour in any one casino. This amount of time won't give the casino definitive evidence on whether the player is a skilled counter, and they don't want to risk losing a 'civilian' by mistaking one for a counter. Of course, pit personnel being what they are, this still happens, and the stupidity through which the casino thus loses money is a source of vast amusement to counters.

There seems to be a certain amount of misinformation here on the difficulty of making money counting, but I can guarantee you it's a vastly easier way to make money than horserace handicapping, though not nearly as much fun. As you probably realize, this is true in spades for poker. I don't know if you saw the film '21', but if you can ignore the Hollywood nonsense about round-the-clock strippers and constant partying, the demonstration of the mechanics of the way a count team works were roughly accurate. And remember, these guys did take millions of dollars out of the casinos over the years.

Cheers,

lansdaleRobert mentioned that the counter was playing at the $5 tables...he didn't say that he was betting $5 chips.

Some of these counters who were barred were downright ridiculous...they would sit at the $5 tables, so they could bet the absolute minimum when the deck was unfavorable...and then they would increase their wagers to very suspicious levels, when the odds turned in their favor.

They never seemed to realize that longevity in the game was easily as important as card-counting expertise...

[lansdale]

Hi Thaskolos,

Players such as you describe are not professional or even serious amateur players. Still, I stand by my words - people playing at low level simply do not get barred.

Cheers,

lansdale

[David-LV]

I had the same question.

The M Race & Sports Book will let you bet all you want without any problem.

_________
David-LV

[Robert Goren]

I played blackjack part time for for about 6 years. There is nothing easy about. The game in which the player was ban was in a Iowa casino in about 1997-1998. My memory fails as to which one. I didn't think he was part of a team. For the record I wasn't either. I always thought that being part of a team was the easiest way to get caught, but I could be wrong. Back to the point, Casinos don't like lose money to anyone who they think has an edge. It easier to stay under the radar if you are small time player, but they aren't totally ignoring them either.

[teddy]

very little chance this really happened

This reminds me of a time when I was part of a team that hit the indian casinos in the smokey mtns. We had one bear watching the pit while i was counting, only when the time was right we would lay down the big cache. Mostly we played black and some brown...black bears seem to have better eyes and they went unnoticed by the public more. The unpredictability of the browns made us steer clear of them. As you guessed it ... even after keeping our bets low we got busted and thrown out just for being bears... go figure. TRUE STORY

[Zman179]

Was this around the time one of the top jocks (Hansen?) mysteriously disappeared?

Yup, Ron Hansen was killed in 1994.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

The M Race & Sports Book will let you bet all you want without any problem.

_________
David-LV

Are you serious?

Maybe all you want but not all what some people want.

Go over today, act like you have the money, go to the window and call out $20K on either NBA game tonight or call out $50K on one of the playoff games this weekend.

Maybe, and I stress maybe, on game day, they might take $50K...but only if they need money on the side you want.

Much lower will get rejected but those numbers might get them to call security over and escort you out.

If you did this at any other property you would get escorted out for sure.

[sonnyp]

The M Race & Sports Book will let you bet all you want without any problem.

_________
David-LV



forget walters, the M is the "new" gathering place for "beaver" and his crew. fresh out of jail and firing $100,000 + per day to get house Q's.

how long this time ?

[lamboguy]

forget walters, the M is the "new" gathering place for "beaver" and his crew. fresh out of jail and firing $100,000 + per day to get house Q's.

how long this time ?
jelinsky must be the only one getting down on house Q's in that joint?

does this mean that he is not welcome at the palms any longer?

[sonnyp]

jelinsky must be the only one getting down on house Q's in that joint?

does this mean that he is not welcome at the palms any longer?


what would you think ?

[BlueShoe]

this government's position on gambling is a travesty.
Speaking of which, anyone up to date on federal and Nevada tax reporting requirements and casino procedures? The feds insist that any transactions of over 10 thousand is a reportable event. Have been told that the casinos often want to know who you are even when you cash in as little as 5 or even 3 thousand. This would seem to be more of a problem for horseplayers that hit a monster super, pick 3, or pick 4 rather than for sports or table games players.

[sonnyp]

Speaking of which, anyone up to date on federal and Nevada tax reporting requirements and casino procedures? The feds insist that any transactions of over 10 thousand is a reportable event. Have been told that the casinos often want to know who you are even when you cash in as little as 5 or even 3 thousand. This would seem to be more of a problem for horseplayers that hit a monster super, pick 3, or pick 4 rather than for sports or table games players.

say you start betting on the east coast tracks in the morning and you hang around all day and finish up with the meadowlands at night.......if and when your aggrigate play hits $3000 they're going to start asking questions.

if you cash for $3000......same thing even if it just gets you even for earlier losses.

nice, huh ?

[Dave Schwartz]

The number I am told is $5,000 per day and the casinos (at least in Reno) will bend over backwards to NOT track you if you don't wish to be tracked.

That means if you were betting a lot of races at (say) $20-$50 at a time, they might not notice how much you have bet cumulatively. However, if you did this every day you for an extended period WILL be noticed.


Dave

[Fat Syd]

I watched a player playing 10 to 50 dollar bills asked to leave. he was a known counter

[lansdale]

I played blackjack part time for for about 6 years. There is nothing easy about. The game in which the player was ban was in a Iowa casino in about 1997-1998. My memory fails as to which one. I didn't think he was part of a team. For the record I wasn't either. I always thought that being part of a team was the easiest way to get caught, but I could be wrong. Back to the point, Casinos don't like lose money to anyone who they think has an edge. It easier to stay under the radar if you are small time player, but they aren't totally ignoring them either.

Robert,

I don't know how useful debating any of this on a horseracing site is, but once more.....Certainly blackjack is not easy to beat, but as with poker, video poker, and sports betting, for those with the requisite intelligence, discipline, and emotional equanimity, it's a much easier game to beat than horse race handicapping. You may have seen the post by the guy in this thread noting that horse racing is notoriously absent from the list of games that Billy Walters plays. That's not an accident. Re low-level blackjack players getting barred, I stand by my previous posts, casinos do not fear such action, but why not let anyone interested test this out ...go to a casino, play either red or green at the BJ table, and see if you get backed off. I say it's extremely unlikely.

Cheers,

lansdale

[vegasone]

The casinos don't like even low level blackjack counters. Even back in 1982 I was sitting at a table and they tossed a counter playing $25 in one casino I was at. Not barred just told they didn't want his business. I was also counting but not betting as much. Most of the oldtime BJ players I'm aware of don't play much in town. Even around 2000 I was eagle eyed by a pit boss who knew his way around counting. Was working a different angle. I would say most of the pit bosses can at least do a little counting nowadays as well as security above.

[delayjf]

over the past few years, homeland security, I.C.E, and other federal agencies have "busted" horseplayers and sent them to jail for moving money through casinos into pools.

Heres the part I don't understand, what exactly is illegal with the above?

[sonnyp]

the government's position was that the bets were being "layed off". naturally, it was more equitable for those accused to take a deal rather than try to fight.

most don't have any idea how fruitless this type od fight usually is. ask tom delaye (sp ?)

[Robert Goren]

There is a theory(which I think is wrong) that it is money laundering either by drug dealers or by terrorist.

[Robert Goren]

A question to the sports betters. How much of a middle do you need to become profitable? 1pt? 1 1/2 pts? 2 pts?

[horses4courses]

A question to the sports betters. How much of a middle do you need to become profitable? 1pt? 1 1/2 pts? 2 pts?

I don't bet sports often, but I have booked hundreds of thousands of sports bets over the years.
The key factor here, if you're referring to football, is the number you are trying to side, or middle.

Numbers 3,4 and 7 make the "wise guys" lick their chops.
Any deviation in and around those numbers can be a disaster for bookmakers.

Obviously, the more leeway the bettor has (1 point or more), the greater their chances of making a killing. However, even the hook (half a point) is crucial around the key numbers.

[precocity]

It was worse for horseplayers, when the horse bets there were not parimutuel...

I remember my first trip to Las Vegas...in the mid 1980s.

I wanted to bet $300 to win on a grass horse named Boca County Kid, running at Arlington Park.

I was standing at the counter in the sportsbook at Caesars Palace, right behind a sports bettor...and I watched this sports bettor collect $50,000 in cash and chips, for his winning wager.

When my turn came, and I announced my bet to the teller...he asked for manager approval.

When the manager arrived, he looked at the board for my horse's odds - which were 9/2 - and he told me that, at those odds, he could only accept $100 of my bet.

I was stunned...and quickly told him that I had just watched another player collect $50,000, without any problem.

He smiled at me, and told me that "sports were different"!

I realized, then and there, how honest OUR sport was considered to be - by Las Vegas casinos.
first time i went to Vegas same thing happen to me at bally's about 10 yrs ago? i wanted to put a grand on the Dallas cowboys to cover against the giants and he called the manager and he tells me i can only bet 200???????? f-that that's why i got a great bookie... :ThmbUp:

[sonnyp]

from today's las vegas review jounal :



http://www.lvrj.com/news/billy-walters-gets-the-best-of-it-on-60-minutes-114193169.html


http://www.lvrj.com/sports/walters-profile-on-60-minutes-perfect-ad-for-las-vegas-114193254.html

[judd]

laura logan hot hot :kiss: :kiss: :kiss:

[BlueShoe]

laura logan hot hot :kiss: :kiss: :kiss:
It is Lara, not Laura, and while she is certainly hot, hot, she is also married, married. Will be 40 in a couple of months, although she does not look it.

[judd]

cbs just reported she got attacked and beaten and raped in egypt :(

[098poi]

I thought you were making a bad joke!!! My apologies. Terrible.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/compost/2011/02/what_happened_to_lara_logan_wa.html

[Grits]

This was a horrible tragedy to learn tonight on CBS News. This journalist, Lara Logan, has spent 10 years covering the Middle East, she has been dead in the middle of these wars, in harms way, time and time again. I was so pleased to see her having fun with the piece she did for 60 Minutes. Smiling, dressed, with makeup, looking so pretty and having fun!!! At the time, I was thinking about WHERE she had been, prior to her interview with "the gambler." I was so happy for her.

I didn't hear that she was raped, I heard that she was beaten, and sexually assaulted, which doesn't alway mean rape, yet still, she is hospitalized. The fact that she has a 14 month old toddler is added heartbreak.

People can be animals.:(

[lamboguy]

there are to many sick things going on this world today, it makes us all sick to out stomachs. i know this is a bad life changer for this lady, i just hope that she can pull herself together somehow.

[judd]

barbaric bastards :ThmbDown:

[BlueShoe]

What the hell was her so called security doing during this time? How did she become separated from them? She was rescued by a bunch of women but her presumably armed security could not? Many questions on this one.

[lurker]

BW is still playing horses. Only a couple of days a year, but still plays. As for Beaver I hear he is winning. Does anyone know if he is winning?