War??

[harpowitz]

The time for mourning will soon be absorbed into everybody's psyche. It will never end so long as we retain the memory of what happened on that day in September and the horrific aftermath. We will return to some degree of normalcy and our mourning will have to give way to a sense of resolve and an active effort to punish those who preach, practice, or support terrorism.

Benjain Nehtenyahu, I probably have his name spelled wrong, the former hard-line Prime Minister of Israel has been interviewed a number of times recently. In his book written 5 yrs ago, he stated that the car bomb in the garage of the WTC would soon be replaced by a nuclear warhead unless the western nations of the world began to deal with terrorism, particularly those nations that protect, sponsor, harbor, and support terrorism. Bin Ladin, in his opinion, can only operate with help from Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran , Palestine (which he describes as the training ground for human bombs).
As he stated, terrorist countries now have the will but not yet the power to destroy the west: the west (principally the USA) has the power to destroy the terrorist nations but lacks the will. We have to now face the questions we didn't like to face before. Whose children do we want to see laid out in body bags? Ours or our enemies? I don't think there is a choice.

At home, we will have to become more security conscious. Right now people waiting for airplanes are agreeable to lengthy waits for clearance. Will this be true in 6 mos? Or will terrorists lie in wait for the airports to become once again a Home Depot shopping mecca for their activities? All passengers should realize that complete checks of their backgrounds, i.e. comparison of personal data on their social securitiy number applications with questioning by security personnel, perhaps no carry-on luggage, secure doors, and sky marshalls who will shoot first and ask questions later will become a way of life. I would suggest this type of clearance for all interstate travel, in one form or another, including bridge and
tunnell traffic.

Just look at the flight patterns of the hi-jacked jets? It would seem that these marked deviations should give rise to serious concerns. Jets from NJ could have been scrambled and intercepted the planes before they got close to their targets.

We may try to get back to normalcy, but for me and those I know, it is not the normalcy that once existed.

This country had better think LONG and HARD before trying to engage these terrorists. The ONLY hope we have for winning this war on terrorism (this new and different kind of unseen enemy) is to suspend our value system. If the U.S. thinks for a moment that we can engage an enemy who has no rules, and yet still maintain our set of rules, and win this war, then this goverment is more deluded than I ever imagined. For example, terrorists think nothing of hiding behind the human shield of women and children. If we allow these kinds of tactics to deter us , we might as well keep our armed forces at home. If we're going to win this war, then we MUST fight fire with fire.

Boxcar

[BIG HIT]

Hi guys your right in all you said.People dont understand when they say they dont kill inocent women and chidern.There think none of us are innocent in there eyes.We are all gulty of what ever.Iam from detroit the day of the bombing they were clebrating there are some good one but all in all they are just here fo money.I wont go in to why you would not want to live next to them but i know if you had experince with them at work and out i know you would agree.They get all the break and more than any other people that come here.In my community paper they said it is aganist there relegion to pay interest and they are trying to find ways they can buy houses etc with out paying interest.Funny thing is its not against there relgion to collect interest.We should do what they did in world war to round them all up send them all back do not allow any of them back.This will show the world that to be allowed here is a privillage.protest are one thing murder is another.All other imigrents have never done such a atrosity.But if they ever to decide to nuk us as thing stand they will always have a shot to do so now.This they have proved by the tragdy.This is my own opion sorry if any one thinks iam small minded

[BIG HIT]

I havent seen them do anything to help.After there celabration they did have a candle light vigilfor those people here.But have not herd of anything else.We have to remenber they do not think like us.But you would think those here would show some support for us.Besides lighting candles. Have not seen any help diging or donations or going public with there out rage.But they have complained about racial slurs and windows broke on there relegious center

[karlskorner]

I am not certain where our values are at. On Wed. 9/12 the Keeneland's Sept. sale resumed and a colt out of Storm Cat was purchased for $6.4 million.

That's $6.4 million for a 4 legged dumb animal with the brain the size of a plum. Keeneland justified their reopening with the following statement "If for one moment we thought that postponing this sale would help the situation we would do so without heitation. Unforunately it will not help. Any further postponement only will have a determinental impact on our community and industry".

After re-reading Steve Crist's editorial in the DRF I am inclined to agree with him.

Karl

[ridersup]

Karlskorner

I read Mr Crists column on the drf page with mixed emotions. He criticized some race tracks for re-opening and going on with business as usual while real sports such as football and baseball cancelled their games out of respect for the terrible tradgedy we are all going through. Racing he says is no better than the casinos who continued to operate. I personally don't know what a proper time period for mourning should be in this situation, all I know is that I still feel numb and don't really feel like doing anything even going to the track which is one of my great loves. However Mr. Crist, I believe is way out of line in criticizing those that chose to move forward and try to get on with their lives in the face of a situation that has no paralell or past history to guide us.

I believe Mr Crist is a hypocrite because on the same page he is berating the racing industry for carrying on he is telling us he can provide us with a racing form for thursday and friday. Oh and yes the form will be greatly reduced in content and not include things such as Tomlinson ratings, Beyer ratings, and Trainer data. Any one want to guess whether or not he will reduce the price for this gutted product.

The high and mighty Mr Crist that talks out of both sides of his mouth should show how deeply he feels about our national situation by donating any money received for these forms to aid the victims of this act of war. He should do so as long as he feels a responsible person would mourn under these circumstances.

Still in shock.


Ridersup

[JesseV!!!]

BIG HIT/ALL
Here's an interesting bit of history: Detroits neighboring city of Dearborn was Henry Fords
pride. It was built of brick houses that were cheaply sold to white Ford employees.
No blacks could buy a house there. It was a model community of peace, education and prospered
for many, many years. He placed Orville Hubbard as mayor. Who, after 65 years was replaced by
his son.
Strange thing. There was a Syrian community in E. Dearborn that even then (1960s) was terrorizing
Americans. They would find a small group in a park and gang up on them like cowards. We cought
on to them, surrounded them and set the record straight that day. We became THE gang.
After the civil rights movement, Dearborn was open to any one. Hubbard was gone.
Dearborn was slowly bought up by the Arab community. I don't even recognize it any more.

The Question is, why did they jump at this opportunity to form a community back then? Is it their
U.S. center? Can any of them be trusted, nice as they may seem? I think not. Just being cautious.
JesseV!!!

[Dave Schwartz]

All,

I believe that to fight terrorism we have to create a scenario where the guys committing the terrorism are no longer heroes in their world or culture.

In order to do that we must make the retaliztion swift and unpleasant. I find Jesse's story very instructive. They "fought a war" and sent a message that said, "Do this again and the next beating will be worse."

I believe that is what we need to do. We need to give a beating that is many times worse. Who do we beat? We start with any country that physically harbors the terrorists as well as any company that we are satisifed contributed financially.

In fact, I would make a prediction: Either just before or just after the first airstrike against ??, that country will call for bin Laden to be turned over to us for prosecution. Suddenly he will be villified in Afghanistan.

The real question is, "Will we stop at that point?" We well may, but I don't believe we should stop so easily. The attacked COUNTRY itself needs to feel the pain caused by this attack, not simply the loss of a folk hero.

Unlike Dearborn, I doubt that one beating will be enough. There will be reprisals. After all, bin Laden is not the only terrorist leader. He's just the one with the big bucks and a high profile.

Finally, this is a time to awaken a word that we Americans rarely use any more: patriotism. It needs to become "fashionable" again.

Our last heavily committed "war" was vietnam. Desert Storm was a drop in the bucket in comparison. (Please, I am not minimizing DS, just pointing out that the loss of life, duration, troop involvement, etc. was no where near Vietnam.)

Vietnam did not turn out well for us. And when military personel returned to the states they were greated with anything but a patriot's welcome. And THEY were patriots. Every last one of them.

You might not agree with "why we were there," "was it a just war," "was it a waste of time," etc. But those men SERVED their country by following their leaders. That is a patriot.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

PS: Please forgive me if I over-reacted a bit on the patriot stuff, but I am impassioned about that. Too many of those patriots do not fit into our society today because they were made villains instead of heroes when they returned.

[Tom]

Ridersup-good point. If racing is so wrong, why is the money-grubbing Crist publishing his paper? 'Cuase 5 bucks is what he worships.

Boxcar-dont for a minute confuse those "children" dancing on the West Bank with real children. Those little animals are nothing more than future murers and we should make no effort whatsoever not to kill them in the upcoming war. There are no innocents in Afganstan, Iraq, or Palestine. Bin Laden. Arafat, and Hussein must die-they are the anti-christs and as long as they live, the free world is in danger. Afganistan is already threatening its neighbors. They must be the first to feel the global equivalent to the deth penalty-we must copletely and utterly destroy Afganistan and kill everyone within its borders. The go after ALL other known terrorists-Irag, Pallestine, Jordon? who knows. We cannot stop this time. This is the fight to the end. We either win or we lose-no middle ground. There can never be a truce or an armistice with these people becasue they are not people-they are a mutant strain in our specides that must be cut out. Thes animals that flew OUR planes into the WTC and Pentagon were once "children" dancing in the streets like we saw in Palestien last week. Too bad someone didn' t kill them and their mothers back then.
Now is the time.

Dave,
Whatever our thoughts about the VietNam war, we must respect our boys who gave so muchover there. Bt this time around, we cannot fight a war like that one-this time, we have to use everything and go for the win-no compomise, no peace, no surrendor, I don't like the idea of sending American boys into that God-foresaken POS aean of the world. I think we should start right out with carefully aime nuclear devices and destroy as much as we can on day one. I want this to be a war of destructoin, not politics. I don't want to have peace afterwards, I want to have radioactive wastelands that no one can ever live in again-I want complete and total anialation of a society. This is a new world order. We can never again fight a war like we used to.

And as to this crap about blaming Americans that are of Arabian descent in this country for what happened, hey guys-theses are AMERICANs too-no one comes from "here" originally-we all come from somewhere else and we all look difernet and have different ways. Let's focus our attention on the real enemy-those in the Middle East , not our own people.

Tom

[Tuffmug]

Many of you are confusing patriotism with blind hatred. We are fighting for a way of life rooted in the rule of law and respect for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Our weapons and choices of action must reflect that or we become the thing we hate. The ends never justify an unjust means.

Stop the labeling and libeling of all Arabs as the enemy. I have many Arab friends. These people are not happy and rejoicing in the streets. All Arabs are not terrorists just as all horseplayers are not degenerate gamblers. Let us punish the guilty and embrace and protect the innocent.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Tuffmug


Stop the labeling and libeling of all Arabs as the enemy. I have many Arab friends. These people are not happy and rejoicing in the streets. All Arabs are not terrorists just as all horseplayers are not degenerate gamblers. Let us punish the guilty and embrace and protect the innocent. [/B]

Hope you don't think I meant all Arabs because I refered to our enemies in the middle east-I didn't. I meant that that is where our enemies live and hide.
I thought I was specific in naming Iraq, Afganistan, and Palestine as the enemy. The Palestienians, those poor people who were just identified by the anti-racism conference as being persecuted by Israel got that way in the first place by trying to invade and destroy Israel in 1967-but they got fooled-Israel was not about to be destroyed. They went to war and lost-the West Bank is Israel's territory, not theirs.
As far as the ends justifying the means, we need to learn from Israel and Benjamine Neten... (I can't spell it)
The societies of the Taliban and the like are out to destroy us-and they will if we don't destroy them first.
We do have friends in the Middle East and many people from the middle east have come here to live and contribue to our society-and we welcome them. But those who came here to learn to fly and use our own planes and peope to kill thousands of us-that group must die no mater who they are, Arab, white, Chinnese, French.... 5 years ago, this Ben Laden group planned to fly a jet into the Eiffle tower but were thwarted because the French government put their people's safety ahead of doing things lawfully and were able to find out in time through illegal wiretaps, surveillence, etc.
What do you think the next terrorist attack by Ben Laden will be-it will be worse than this one. If we sit here thinking how good we are because we follow the letter of the law, we will find a nuclear bomb going off in Washinton or worse. We will be counting the dead in milllions. If a million people have to die, then I prefer it to be them, not us. We cannot reason or deal with these
sub-humans. They are fighting a Holy war-they are commited (to Satan) and we are the targets.

Tom

[harpowitz]

As the days go by(hard to believe it is less than a week) the choices confronting the USA are being defined and refined by our government. Many countries are falling into line, Pakistan and Iran!!!, 2 principal USA haters. We should not forget we are the most powerful military nation in the world and we now have to act like it.We know who the countries are that sponsor terrorism, most of them are, in fact, on record as having called for a jihad against the west (read USA). Clearly, many of them are now jumping on the bandwagon rather than face the vegenance of the US. We cannot end this until we know Iraq no longer has chemical/nuclear capability, until Egypt (our supposed friend) cleanses itself of all fundamentalist groups that preach death and destruction to the west, until Iran joins the community of nations and allows the popularly elected government to rule by removing the Mullahs who maintain real control of the country, and until all countries that accomadate terrorists within their borders out of polical necessity realize that necessity is now the USA and that is where they will find political salvation. The US has to stand firm. We will face opposition from from both within and without but we know what has to be done--Half measures won't cut it.

Just a while ago, a good online buddy of mine forwarded a copy of this commentary on America. Some of you may have already read this, but if not, I believe you'll find that it speaks eloquently and poignantly to what America has historically been about.

Boxcar

"The barbarians will learn what America's
all about,"

By Leonard Pitts Jr. Syndicated columnist

They pay me to tease shades of meaning from
social and cultural issues, to provide words
that help make sense of that which troubles
the American soul. But in this moment of
airless shock when hot tears sting
disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find
to say, the only words that seem to fit,
must be addressed to the unknown author of
this suffering.

You monster. You beast. You unspeakable
bastard.

What lesson did you hope to teach us by your
coward's attack on our World Trade Center,
our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we
would learn? Whatever it was, please know
that you failed.

Did you want us to respect your cause? You
just damned your cause.

Did you want to make us fear? You just
steeled our resolve.

Did you want to tear us apart? You just
brought us together.

Let me tell you about my people. We are a
vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent
by racial, cultural, political and class
division, but a family nonetheless. We're
frivolous, yes, capable of expending
tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural
minutiae, a singer's revealing dress, a ball
team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse.

We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready
availability of trinkets and material goods,
and maybe because of that, we walk through
life with a certain sense of blithe
entitlement. We are fundamentally decent,
though peace-loving and compassionate. We
struggle to know the right thing and to do
it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of
us, people of faith, believers in a just and
loving God.

Some people - you, perhaps - think that any
or all of this makes us weak. You're
mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are
strong in ways that cannot be measured by
arsenals.

Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning
and we are in shock. We're still grappling
with the unreality of the awful thing you
did, still working to make ourselves
understand that this isn't a special effect
from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the
plot development from a Tom Clancy novel.

Both in terms of the awful scope of its
ambition and the probable final death toll,
your attacks are likely to go down as the
worst acts of terrorism in the history of
the United States and, indeed, the history of
the world. You've bloodied us as we have
never been bloodied before.

But there's a gulf of difference between
making us bloody and making us fall. This is
the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter
sorrow the last time anyone hit us this
hard, the last time anyone brought us such
abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we
are righteous in our outrage, terrible in
our force. When provoked by this level of
barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay
any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit
of justice.

I tell you this without fear of
contradiction. I know my people, as you, I
think, do not. What I know reassures me. It
also causes me to tremble with dread of the
future.

In days to come, there will be recrimination
and accusation, fingers pointing to
determine whose failure allowed this to
happen and what can be done to prevent it
from happening again. There will be
heightened security, misguided talk of
revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward
from this moment sobered, chastened, sad.
But determined, too. Unimaginably determined.

You see, there is steel beneath this velvet.
That aspect of our character is seldom
understood by people who don't know us well.
On this day, the family's bickering is put
on hold. As Americans we will weep, as
Americans we will mourn, and as Americans,
we will rise in defense of all that we
cherish.

Still, I keep wondering what it was
you hoped to teach us. It occurs to me that
maybe you just wanted us to know the depths
of your hatred.

If that's the case, consider the message
received. And take this message in exchange:
You don't know my people. You don't know
what we're about. You don't know what you
just started.

But you're about to learn.

[smf]

Harpowitz,

I agree w/ your sentiment. We REALLY need to eliminate Iraq along w/ Afghanistan. Tossing in Syria as a "blow 2 up, get one free" deal sounds cool, too.

Just for discussion, I don't believe that can be done...at least for now. Right now, we need Iran, Paki's, others help to get to bin Laden, and we need their help in a serious way. W/o help, logistical problems might keep us from nailing the correct targets.

Dropping nukes on the afghans won't guarantee we get the needed targets (terrorists). We have to weed em out w/ ground troops and that's a dirty job that has to be done right. Imho, that's the only surefire way we know we took them out of business, even if it's short termed.

No way we can nuke anybody in that region right now and (1) assure ourselves we kill all the terrorists there, and (2) start a war that we may not have the resources to finish.

By #2, I mean that if we nuke the afghans, that'll piss off ALL Arab nations b/c of the proximity of the nuke as well as the fact that these people hate us. They hate not just our policies, but our existence. They've made that point clear over the years.

So, maybe the question is "can we take on that entire region right now" and there are serious doubts we have the resources RIGHT NOW to finish a war like that w/o getting nuked ourselves.

Perhaps Powell, et al are considering fk-ing Afghanistan so bad, that most Arab nations IMMEDIATELY search for and hand over any terrorists in their countries. If not, then we'll already have troops there and a phase 2 of a Iraq, Syria invasion can take place. It'll be a helluva lot easier w/ troops already based safely in the Middle East, which is what we'll have at that time. The present plan of attacking a lone dissenting arab country (afghanistan) is allowing us immediate and safe access into the region.

Powell has to take this one day at a time, obviously. The scene over there changes constantly. Can't think of anyone better qualified or better suited for what is taking place.

Back in 1992 someone mentioned in a political debate "it's the economy, stupid" when military spending among other things was mentioned. How foolish does that sound now? Over the past few prez administrations we've cut back our HUMINT org (human intelligence) to the bone and it's a wonder something like this hasn't happened before now.

As a result (imho) we've painted ourselves in a corner b/c of HUMINT's lack of resources.

[smf]

S/ read "bomb Libya also", not Syria.....

[Dave Schwartz]

smf,

While I don't think this is a good time for us to be attacked, it is a great time for a war. From an economic standpoint, that is.

A war would benefit us. At least it has tradionally. We start spending money for equipment, provide jobs for the unemployed (both high tech and low tech) and in general, get money moving.

As I recall, we have an economist or two that hang out here. I'd love to hear what they have to say on the subject.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Tom]

Good post. You obviously would make a better leader than me. As we long as we get the job done this time,
I'll wait for the right time. But it sure would be nice to see just one find a target this weekend. Maybe you're right about making such an example of Afganistan
We need to listen to our Generals more often. We stopped too early in WWII, we stopped too early in Korea, we never got going in Viet Nam, and we stopped way to soon in the Gulf War. And we have paid for each of those bad choices.
These sub-humans are going to destroy us if we don't get them now. For God's sake, these sand-sucking b*st*rds blew up the Pentagon! And they could have taken out the WhiteHouse and Chenny!
What's next?

(Dave, undoubtedly, some people are already postioning themselves for all those "war-bucks."
The economy is going to do what it does-I think a lot of businesses are going to be hurt badly-like the airline industry. And the auto industry if we get screwed over on oil-but they bring that on themselves by not having electric cars or an equvalent in produciton already. They spend countless dollars on tweaking stupid stuff, like colors(would be believe they have a color called "Medium Light Dark Pewter??!?? It look a lot like Medium Dark Gray, but not if you use special lights to look at it!) And all those gas-guzzling SUV's that no one ever needed. Maybe some new, more intelligent businesses will develope.

Tom

[so.cal.fan]

What do you guys think of the report today that Bin Laden may have manipulated stocks in Munich last week. Buying shorts on the insurance companies that insured the WCT to finance the attacks?
Isn't there ANY way we can stop their supply of cash? It seems that is the best way to at least slow them down, till we can catch them?
A friend of mine thinks they are being financed by drug money.

[smf]

So Cal fan,

Looks like that might be the case. I'd hope someone's going to act, and quick. In the reply "German regulators" it looks like what you heard is getting around.

http://bbs.austin360.com/cgi-bin/interact/BBS/generate_post.cgi?oldmid=1&mid=853342&Board=100texas


That sumbitch isn't dumb, i'll say that.


Dave,

I'd like to hear from the person you spoke of also. Certainly w/b interesting b/c he has a better handle on this stuff than me.

I'm holding my stocks tight and crossing fingers. If things go "bad" I might have to go back to a real job, lol. My stocks have taken a beating as is for the past year. Nothing like seeing your retirement $ shrink before your eyes.

For now, just planning to wait it out.

Tom,

Me too. I'd sure like to see us find ways to use less fossil fuel/ dinosaur wine. Necessity is the mother of invention (who said that, H Ford??). A few of my friends have SUV's and rarely do they have anyone in the passenger seat. A real waste, imo.

[NoDayJob]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
smf,

While I don't think this is a good time for us to be attacked, it is a great time for a war. From an economic standpoint, that is.

A war would benefit us. At least it has tradionally. We start spending money for equipment, provide jobs for the unemployed (both high tech and low tech) and in general, get money moving.

As I recall, we have an economist or two that hang out here. I'd love to hear what they have to say on the subject.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz


************************************************** ************************************

A great time for a war? Have you ever been in armed combat? Well, I have been and until you've seen your buddies torn apart by a mortar, an artillery shell or automatic fire or have been a guest of your enemy I don't think you have a right to make such a ridicuous statement. Wars may be good for the economy in the short run but they have to be paid for by higher taxes and more and more inflation and suffering by the people. If that's what you truly want then I suggest you volunteer to be in the first wave. Men start the wars but they are fought by boys and girls who are too young to know better. -NDJ

[Dave Schwartz]

NDJ,

Come on, here... Read the whole quote... from an economic standpoint is what I said. I was addressing SMF's idea that we were not economically ready for war.

>>>"While I don't think this is a good time for us to be attacked, it is a great time for a war. From an economic standpoint, that is. "<<<

And, yes, I have seen combat. And yes, it was unpleasant. And, yes, I have seen people torn apart. And yes, I'd volunteer all over again.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Dave Schwartz]

NDJ,

After re-reading my post I can see how you might have gleaned that... I have to admit that I am in favor of war, but I did not mean to sound as callous as it came out.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[JesseV!!!]

The MO of terrorists is to come here and be kind and nice Americans. What do we do?
Who do we trust? How careful should we be?
JesseV

[smf]

NDJ, Dave,

When I first read Dave's post, I also had to do a double-take. When I read it again (and knowing where he's coming from) I understood what he meant.

That's the problem w/ posting on a board. You can't see expressions or hear voice inflection. Sometimes it's easy to take a message the wrong way.

[Tom]

They are saying now that 62 different countries lost people in the cowardly attack by faithless animals.
I just dont understand some countries are now lining up behind us to strike back. We must, when this is over (as over as it will ever be) deal with these leech countries-not one more dollar of aid from US ever again-no humanitarian efforts, no trade-nothing. We must take care of our friends, and those don't help us are not our friends-and they shouldn't be allowed to share in our prosperity. It was heartwarming to hear Mr Bush say those words today - "Wanted, Dead or Alive!"
I hope we somehow manage to aid those 30,000+ Northern Alliance rebels take over Afganistan-they were the absolute first to speak up on our behalf last Tuesday night-by bombing Kabel! I have never heard of these guys before.
Tom

[smf]

Tom,

Well...........looks like Italy has dropped the rifle and run. Their defense minister said they won't help us out.

http://asia.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/world/article.html?s=asia/headlines/010917/world/afp/Italian_defence_minister_rules_out_Italian_troop_r ole.html

Saw an article where france isn't exactly on board with "war". Kuwait's leadership (of all nations) made a statement that war was too strong a response. Short memory.

The longer this goes along, the faster these "friends" turn their backs on us. Now we know why Powell & Bush have stated that we'll know who our allies are soon enuff.

[Dave Schwartz]

smf & Tom,

My fear is that we will send a missle or two, posture up a bit, then quit if Afghanistan hands bin Laden over or they simply say he is gone.

I really hope Bush & company have what it takes to see this through. I'm certainly behind him. Not sure if he can get 2 terms without significant action.

Just my opinion.

Dave

[smf]

Dave,

I think a 2nd term is out of the question, imho. He's in a no-win position. The hand wringing doves will point to the fact "he led us to war". We're headed (have been, really) for hard times financially so that s/ take care of some other's votes.

Remember how well Desert Storm went, and GHB didn't get a 2nd term. This war won't be so easy. Plus, we were seeing the economy recover in the summer/ fall of 1992 and it didn't matter.

Most of our generation is on board right now w/ what GWB is planning. Can we say the same for the younger gen? From what I've seen here, no.

The bi-partisanship won't last forever, either. It was/ is a forced lovefest unfortunately.

p.s...i share the same fear of "stopping short" of completeing the job... but, you know the consequences as well as i do if we stick around after the UN sez "out you go, you got bin Laden"...it'll get pretty sticky and the possibility of each arab country turning on us if we stay and try to rid the whole 'al queda' out...no way we can stay in pakistan if that happens (imo) b/c much of the populace doesn't want us there to begin with....s/b interesting.

[smf]

Dave,

forgot to mention that I do wish he'd get the 2nd term. I'm impressed (and not surprised) with him so far.

He handled the China Sea spy plane crisis with perfection. He's done what he could with the small tax break (imo, a prez has little to do w/ the economy as a whole, tho). Now, he has an excellent Foreign Relations team in place for what's going on right now.

Speaking of foreign relations....I'm certain Gore w/ have had a solid group as well, but can you imagine Nader in office right now??? Whew.

[Tom]

Two things in life are certain-death and taxes.
Two things in war are certain: France will fall and Italy will surrender (sometimes twice!).
Bastions of freedom, both of them.
Yech!

Tom

[Dave Schwartz]

smf,

I am reserving judgment on Dubya and a 2nd term. For now, however, I agree with you. He has done a good job.

Dave

[NoDayJob]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
smf,

I am reserving judgment on Dubya and a 2nd term. For now, however, I agree with you. He has done a good job.

Dave



Dave,

I too am reserving judgment. The re-election of President Bush will depend entirely upon what happens to the economy unless our Congress formally declares war. That is highly unlikely at this time. High approval ratings have a nasty habit of kicking politicians in the teeth because people tend to vote their pocketbooks.

After Tuesday's tragic events do not be surprised if "globalism" comes to a screeching halt and extreme "nationalism" and tariffs are the order of the day. Should this happen the potential for another "depression" is great. Remember what happened to Herbert Hoover. -NDJ

[Dave Schwartz]

NDJ,

I recall hearing someone talk about how the work of one administration shows in the economic success (or failure) of the next administraion.

In other words, Clinton's economic work will become the basis for Bush's success.

Although I am a strong critic of Mr. Clinton, I do have to admit he did a more than just good job in office. (It is just real tough for me to use the word "great" in connection with Wild Bill.)


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Tom]

Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
NDJ,

... I do have to admit he did a more than just good job in office. (It is just real tough for me to use the word "great" in connection with Wild Bill.)


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Yeah, like weakening our military, losing important intellegence data, practically giving away our nuclear secrets to China, sucking up to that terrorist Arafat,
and failing to act when our military was attacked by the same animals that attacked us last week. I think treason charges and a firing squad should be his legacy.
give me that low IQ redneck any day. I still give thanks every night that his puppet Al Gore is not the one leading us right now.
But I could be wrong ~G~
Tom

[Dave Schwartz]

Tom,

Okay, so nobody is perfect... <G>

Dave

[NoDayJob]

Originally posted by Tom


Yeah, like weakening our military, losing important intellegence data, practically giving away our nuclear secrets to China, sucking up to that terrorist Arafat,
and failing to act when our military was attacked by the same animals that attacked us last week. I think treason charges and a firing squad should be his legacy.
give me that low IQ redneck any day. I still give thanks every night that his puppet Al Gore is not the one leading us right now.
But I could be wrong ~G~
Tom


Pointing the finger at the President is not the answer. If you are looking for traitors look to the Congress both Democrats and Republicans. They are the ones that have let the President have his way by allowing the 'War Powers" act to continue and not repealing many of the Presidential Executive Orders. The President is called the commander-in-chief only when the Congress has declared war yet we refer to him as such without declaring war. The income tax was only ratified by 4 states yet the Congress has allowed it to continue illegally since its inception. There is too much power concentrated in too few hands. Why would anyone spend millions of dollars to be elected to a job that with perquisites would only pay back a small percentage of the amount spent on the election process. The original purpose of the Congress was to give the ordinary citizen a chance to make his voice heard by serving a period of time then returning to private life. Professional politicians are just that. They are constantly looking for more money to be re-elected. They only serve those who contribute large sums of money. The rest of us be damned. Cicero said centuries ago, "if the public is allowed to vote its own largesse [entitlements] it will ultimately destroy the state". When I was in high school we learned that our country was a Constitutional Republic not a democracy. The ancient Greeks learned all about democracy the hard way. Our country has been on the "dole" ever since President Franklin Roosevelt. I pray that the GenXer's will be able to turn things around. -NDJ