e horse and ehorseX

[Larry Hamilton]

What's the latest poop on these guys? I am considering moving my roll there as I think a bet there doesn't go directly in the odds-making pool. All comments appreciated. I can't bet enough at small tracks to take advantage of my edge.

[PSTfredk]

DO YOU BET MORE THEN 2000$ A RACE

www.wsex.com

has limits on pay offs but they don't go it a pool at the track

read there pay outs very carefully. i don't know of any problems collecting.

www.winticket.com

they go into the pools but they are very good and if you like brisnet p.p. they are free for any track you bet on a given day

example you take p.p. for s.a / belmont / keenland

if you make a play for any amount of money say 2$ on one race
at belmont / keenland the p.p. are free but you don't wager
for some reason you would have to pay for s.a.

[Larry Hamilton]

I have never played for 2k. But, I have a win streak of 21 for 21 going, I need to bet MUCH more.

Thanks for the help

[GameTheory]

Ehorse has betting limits for small tracks, but are solid. Harder to get your money in and out now without PayPal, but that isn't their fault...

[Vigors]

Spoke to them yesterday...you can bet as any normal OTB, or go
into the X section where you're betting against other clients...
you do get more return on track prices..however there is a vig
bepending on how much you bet...the more bet, the less vig...you can also bet any horse to lose...but you have to cover the payout on what you bet against it if it win's and you double your winning if it loses.....you can also bet a house Q with your horse finnishing 1-2, 2--3 , or 1-3.......1/3 to 2/3 of THEIR POOL.
I inquired about how many people were switching to X...and the
answer was " At first, very few...now there's a lot more people
switching......It was hard to understand all the rules...so call the
free 800 # on there site, rather then quote me and have MIDNIGHT coming out of the woodwork ................................
WWW. BETEHORSE.COM

[Vigors]

Frank Sinatra can have Brooklyn for all I care, ( for any of you that give a horse's PATUTE * I'm moving back TO
CALIF. in 3 days.......10 months is 9 months to long.

* Horse's Pa-tute was General Potter's ( from MASH )
EXPRESSION when he was pissed off.

So Belmont, Saratoga, and Aquteduct....your inner and outer tracks....your rainstoms and take a Flying @##$$% at a Rolling
Donut

..........Maybe that is why I was so caustic & insulting to a VERY few earlier..??????? No, come to think of it..It was all thier fault !!

Give my regaurds to BROADWAY

[PaulB]

I play EHORSE every day.

They have caps on exotic payoffs. I don't bet exotics, but I think the cap is 250-1.

They have betting limits on all the tracks. It ranges from $1000 for tracks like BEL and CD to $300 for the bull rings.

EHORSE used to have web site problems. It would go down constantly. I stopped using them for awhile because of that. I've been back with them for over a month and it appears they have cleaned it up.

They also give a rebate every week - a percentage of your bets.
It's something like 3 or 4%. It adds up.

Your bets do not go into the track pool. You're playing against EHORSE.

[Larry Hamilton]

Perfect! I am signing up tomorrow.

Thanks guys for taking the time to answer--much appreciated

[BillW]

Something that I'm curious about: They state that they pay "full track odds". Is that their way of saying they don't pay breakage, or do they really mean they pay full track prices?

Bill

[PaulB]

Larry,

The easiest way to fund your account with then is through Western Union. I found it out the hard way.

Almost all of the credit card companys have stopped allowing transactions to gambling sites.

You can deal with W.U. over the internet. It takes about two hours for the transaction to take place.

Ehorse pays the fees.

Go to http://www.betehorse.com first, get their toll free number and call them. Tell them what you are going to do and they will tell you where to send the wire.

[PSTfredk]

ALL I WAS TRYING TO SAY WAS AT WINTICKET THE LIMIT ON A
STRIGHT BET IS 2000 $ .I WAS TRYING TO BE FUNNY.I HOPE YOU HIT 21 MORE IN A ROW.

GOD LUCK AND BEST WISHES

FREDK

[Holy Bull]

If you are a winner your bets will go into the track pools, especially at the smaller tracks.

[lsbets]

As an owner, albeit a very small owner, I can't help but think that if you are betting somewhere that the money doesn't go into the track pools, you are taking money away from the horsemen and ruining this sport. If handle goes down, purses go down. The big guys at the track don't suffer, but the small ones - the small trainers, owners, and backside workers, the ones who make it possible for tracks to run 8-10 races a day 5 days a week - suffer because ultimatly purses will go down.

[cj]

Originally posted by Holy Bull
If you are a winner your bets will go into the track pools, especially at the smaller tracks.

Are you just assuming this to be so (a logical assumption), or do you have first hand knowledge?

[cj]

I used to see your point of view, but now I say, "who cares?" As fans, we have been treated like crap for as long as I can remember. We pay for everything. Facility improvemnts, lets temporarily raise the takeout...yeah, temporarily, right! No say in anything even though our dollars pay everyone else. Try lowering the takeout and breakage, treating people like I get treated in a casino instead of as a nuisance to the track's workers, and maybe people would come back.

[Inglewood Flamingo]

Gentlemen, While I have had limited posts on PA thus far as a handicapper, I would like to introduce myself and make some clarifications if I may.
As the Director of Marketing for eHorse and eHorse X, I would first like to say I KNOW first hand that wagers placed at eHorse, regardless of how small the track is, do NOT go into the pools. You are betting against eHorse. And yes, while we have had online outages in the past, let's hope they are all behind us. I say hope because as all computer users know, there will always be problems, no matter how much we try to avoid them. I just returned from Costa Rica, and we have recently upgraded our servers to provide an even better opnline wagering experience. In all my years in this business (over a decade), and after working at TVG, Hollywood, Santa Anita and Magna, I have never been as impressed with a wagering companys' facility and their staff. That is why I work for them, and eHorse truly is for the horseplayer, run by horseplayers.
Bill W, we pay full track odds, meaning what you get at the tote is what you get with eHorse, no double talk when it comes time to collect. Full odds on WPS and quinellas. Also, our caps on exotics are 275-1 on exactas and Daily doubles, and 500-1 on trifectas. An interesting point I would like to bring up: During a recent query of all exotic wagers placed by eHorse customers since opening "our book" for business back in April 2001, ONLY 9% of them were effected by the cap.
As Paul B said, the weekly rebates add up, even for the small guy. Trust me, I have seen what 3-5% can do for the all important bottom line, no matter how large or small a player you happen to be.
And as for eHorse X, exchange wagering really is the future of racing in my opinion. Just the ability to "lay" a horse, bet it to lose was enough to peak my interest as a handicapper, not to mention shopping for better value! Plus the more liquidity, the better. More bettors means more offers to be matched. Just like Priceline, you really can now name your own price. I welcome everyone to go to www.ehorse.com and give the free X demo a try. Don't forget to turn on your speakers.
In closing I would like to say that while Isbets comments do have some merit, I can relate much more to CJ these days. No only do the tracks treat us players, the very same people that make this merry-go-round turn like we don't exist, they don't treat employees that are horseplayers any better. Ask me how I know.
I welcome and and all comments/questions via e-mail at garett@betehorse.com and via telephone 805-729-0727 (9-5pm seven days a week). And Larry, when signing up tomorrow, I would certainly appreciate it if you would use my name how you heard about eHorse. Not that I receive any kick back for it (I am a salaried employee), but it lets my boss know I am doing my job... spreading the word about the best offshore racebook for horseplayers, plain and simple. Thanks for listening guys.

[Larry Hamilton]

will do, 22 hit, 23 finished third, and 24 hit...so I am on a new string. If I continue to win at this rate, you may not be so glad to see me!

[lsbets]

CJ,

I do not in any way defend the tracks and the way that they treat customers. I do not have a problem with someone who chooses to bet at a casino instead of a track because of the better treatement. My concern is that when people, generally larger bettors in terms of volume (not neccesarily each bet) decide to go offshore, they hurt the horsemen much more than the tracks. As I see it, the tracks make most of their money from the casual fan, charging for parking, admission, food, and drinks. They do not have to share any of that. I always tell the management at Lonestar that they are a resteraunt that happens to have a track on site. Most of the regular players that I know eat before they get to the track, get free parking, and free admission(or pay for an owners license shich gets the in for free). By keeping money out of the pools, money is being kept away from the little guy, the tracks still get theirs. I don't think you should have to go to the track to bet, just use a site like Bris Bet that doesn't screw the horsemen. The ecomomics of horse ownership make too little sense as it is, the sport will suffer greatly if sites like e-horse take off, and then all we will have to bet on is football. I am not singing woe is me for the tracks, I am thinking of the people like me, who know how tough it is to break even, but run 10K claimers because we love racing. If it gets any harder to cover costs, then people will stop owning on the low end, and 5 day a week racing will go to 4 days, then 3. We already saw purse decreases at Lonestar because of decreased handle this year, and one of the primary reasons was off shore betting locations. I wish that the tracks would get their acts together, but the answer is not offshore. Like I said, use a site that plays in the pools and doesn't hurt the small owners, grooms, and trainers.

[Bluenose]

Have played on the exchange side of this and its a very good site. I did get the feeling that I was betting against just one or two players though. Maybe the liquidity will improve as more people sign up.

[Red Knave]

Isbets -
I agree with CJ here.

I originally wrote a big long rant about how important bettors are but it boils down to this.

The fact that offshore money is not going to the tracks is not the fault of the bettor. I would much prefer to bet locally. The fault lies with an industry that doesn't cater to its customers. Like in any business, industry or country, money goes where it is most appreciated.

[lsbets]

Red,

I am not trying to defend the tracks. I am not saying go to the track and bet. But, I am saying that if you are going to use an internet site, use one that actually supports the sport and people who make it work, like Bris Bet or TVG. I know I won't get much support in this thread, but its an important issue, and its an opinion that I hold very strongly.

[cj]

As far as hurting the little guy...please! Horseman's groups are as bad, or worse, than any of the track ownership. I've seen it in a lot of states, but being from Maryland in particular, I've seen more than my share of "screw the bettor" decisions from the horseman.

[Inglewood Flamingo]

CJ, Did someone say being from Maryland? I was born in the shadows of Yonkers Raceway, but grew up in Annapolis spending my days at Laurel, pre "Park"! Maryland Million Day this weekend and opening day at Laurel is today!

[Inglewood Flamingo]

Blue Nose, the exchange is getting better each day as far as liquidity is concerned. Take a look at Bet Fair. They match millions of dollars a day already, and a lot of that money is on US racing. As I said before that is the beauty of eHorse X. The more players who sign up the more opportunity. We are about to launch a huge BC advertising campaign focusing on the exchange and hopefully that will create much more liquidity. Although, I receive daily feedback from some rather large bettors that seem to have NO Problem getting their wagers and offers matched as it is right now.

[cj]

Yep, I'm from Baltimore...spent many an afternoon at Bowie, Laurel and Pimlico followed by nights at FreeState and Rosecroft (yuck all before I was of age). Many a trip to CharlesTown and Penn as well.

I'll definitely be checking out the Million card...I attended about the first 10 of these.

[PaulB]

ISBETS,

I've thought about what you're saying and it does bother me a little.

I play the small tracks only because there are more longshots. I'm not a huge better, but the way I play I sometimes make $200 or $300 bets playing a progression. At tracks like CT or EMD these bets will have a very noticable effect on the odds. My longshots wouldn't be longshots anymore.

If I couldn't play off-shore I wouldn't play at all, so no one would get my money.

The issue might be moot soon. There are bills in Congress to eliminate internet betting-period- horses, football, the works. The last I read, they have quite a bit of support.

[lsbets]

Paul,

I understand the frustraion with the effect on odds, but it is those people at the small tracks who get hurt the most by off shore betting. Think about it this way, $1,000 out of the pools at Belmont has very little effect, but $1,000 out of the pools at a small track has a very large effect. That is money not going towards purses, and that ultimatly affects the wuality of racing.

In terms of the bill, I fully support eliminating horse betting operations that do not go into the pools. While I have no animous towards the players, I believe that the operators of those sites are taking money out of the mouths of my wife and child.

I view this kind of like bootleg movies. Very few people buy them, so it has a small effect, but it does take money away from the people who put the effort into putting the product out there.

[cj]

Alcohol was illegal during prohibition, narcotics are illegal today. If there is still a market for it, people will provide the service, and customers will find a way to use it. Our government is fighting a losing battle on this one.

[PaulB]

CJ,

I essentially agree with you that people will do pretty much what they want to despite prohibitions.

For myself- I wouldn't risk a term in the federal pen to bet on line.

ISBET,
The bills I'm talking about will outlaw ALL internet betting, in- the pool or out- of- the pool.

[Larry Hamilton]

These discussions trouble me too. I'll sit a while. There seem to be two options:

Play the on track pools in values that are little more than entertainment for the gambler

Play the off shore pools in values that maximize profits.

This was so simple before I read this discussion.

[BETKING]

Have you tried www.pinnaclesports.com. They pay full track odds on "all" bets. They also have a 7% rebate on "all" bets and there is no track restrictions on playing any track. If you are from Texas and you are using a US based book, they want let you play Texas tracks. This is the best deal going!!

[Inglewood Flamingo]

Larry, Here are some recent examples of stakes races on eHorse X overlays that might help you with your decision. The first figure is the tote/track price, the second one is the eHorse X high price that was available, and the third figure is the average eHorse X price that was available on the horse. Hope this helps. We would love to have you aboard.


Sycamore Breeders' Cup: Sharbayan $7.80 $9.80 $9.80

Shadwell Turf Mile: Perfect Soul $15.00 $16.20 $15.18

Champagne: Birdstone $6.50 $7.40 $7.24

Beldame Sightseek: $2.60 $3.14 $2.82

Lane's End Breeders' Futurity: Eurosilver $25.80 $38.00 $33.70

Clement L Hirsch: Storming Home $2.60 $2.92 $2.82

Lady's Secret: Got Koko $12.00 $17.40 $15.64

Yellow Ribbon: Tates Creek $3.80 $4.80 $4.38

Oak Leaf: Halfbridled $2.60 $2.60 $2.60

Phoenix Breeders' Cup: Najran $14.00 $19.60 $18.38

Darley Alcibiades: Be Gentle $5.00 $6.30 $5.88

Frizette: Society Selection $18.40 $29.40 $27.04

[lsbets]

Larry,

Yes, the offshore non-pool hubds maximaize profits short term. I am concerned with what happens long term if they become more popular. They are a threat to the future of horse racing.

Betking - The only Texas track that I can't play is Lonestar, and I live close so driving there is not big deal. I am able to play Retama and Houston on-line.

In terms of the bill, I was not saying that I support that one. But I would support the effort to ban sites that take bets on horseracing without going in the pools. They are stealing from the horsemen. Yes, CJ people will find a way to do it if they really want to. But if less do so, it would help.

[GameTheory]

Sites like ehorse are already illegal (for Americans to bet with). At least, that is the position of most if not all of your state attorney generals. But they can't really stop them, which is the reason they're now going after credit card companies, banks, etc figuring they can at least slow down the money flow. At some point the tracks will smarten up and create their own U.S.-based exchange where they take a cut. They are also missing out on gazillions of dollars they could be taking in from overseas. I think the fact that these sites threaten the tracks is a GOOD thing -- without a threat they will never improve...

[PaulB]

Game Theory,

When you say "sites like Ehorse are already illegal", do you mean off-shore sites only?

I wasn't aware that they were illegal, but I don't dispute it.

The states don't have the means to enforce such prohibitions. As you indicate, they would go after the side-men like the banks.

The feds are a different story. They could enforce it.
If they took it seriously enough, they could open a horse site, offer a 10% rebate, and bust everyone that joined.

They could also get the co-operation the Costa Rican authorities, raid Ehorse and seize their membership records.

I'd get out of it if it were federal law.

[Suff]

used x-horse for a month. No Core complaints. They're small so the growing pains or lack of growing hurts thier handle and opertional issues. I deposited through a 3rd party. They were supposed to send me some ATM type card from a Bank in Florida that I could use to deposit and withdraw. I never got it. But this may have been the 3rd partys goof. Not sure.

I still have the account. And I'd still use it. But Just the same. i would'nt "House" money in there like I do with TVG and WnW. Deposit, Play and get out.

Seems Like a well intended outfit. but if they go down....you go down too.

[Holy Bull]

Here's my problem with the whole "it screws horsemen" angle. The horsemen
do not give a crap about the bettor. We've seen countless tracks add slots and create huge windfalls for the horsemen and drive the square money from the pools into the slots. And most of these places haven't done a thing for bettors! They have the highest takeouts in the country even though only a small percentage of their purse money is derived from betting. But the second something goes wrong, its raise the takeout 1/2 percent for workers comp insurance or new barns.

[ceejay]

Do any of you have concerns about fraud at a (as I understand it) largely-unregulated Costa Rican company?

For example what's to stop them from taking all of the $$ on deposit the day of the Super Bowl and shutting down?

[PaulB]

Ceejay,

Nothing would stop them from doing that.

For that matter nothing would stop Youbet or other domestic gambling sites from doing the same thing. If any of these places are regulated, I don't know who regulates them.

I suspect that Ehorse can make more money by running their business as they are rather than shutting down and running off with the cash.

But, who knows?

[GameTheory]

Originally posted by PaulB
Game Theory,

When you say "sites like Ehorse are already illegal", do you mean off-shore sites only?

I wasn't aware that they were illegal, but I don't dispute it.

The states don't have the means to enforce such prohibitions. As you indicate, they would go after the side-men like the banks.



I mean you could be prosecuted for placing bets with off-shore sites. You probably won't be, but you could be in many states.

The feds are the ones going after the banks, etc -- essentially they are trying to make it so you won't have an easy means to fund your wagering account.

[lsbets]

Holy Bull,

Here is who I am talking about when I say the horsemen:

- the small owners who do this because they love it and hope to break even
- the small trainers who rely on their 10% take to feed their families
- the grooms, hotwalkers, and other backside workers
- the vets and assistants who work for the smaller trainers

All of these peoples lives depend on a continued reasonable level of purses. Even the small owners who could get out. If they get out, they still have a horse to care for, and they ain't cheap, even at home. Keeping money out of the pools adversly affects purses. It is the horsemen who provide the entertainment, and it is through their share of the takeout that they get paid for providing that entertainment. Essentially, by going offshore, you are telling the horsement that the entertainment they provide you with has no value, and you should get it for free. Basic economics say that if money continues to flow out of the pools, than a lesser product will be offered, and that means less betting opportunities.

[Inglewood Flamingo]

Paul B, You are absolutely right. Nothing would stop eHorse from doing what Ceejay said, but it is not likely to happen. eHorse makes much more money running it's business than taking the money and running, of to speak. And NOTHING keeps You Bet, TVG, etc from doing the same. Sure you may have a better leg to stand on since they are US based, but with out naming names, I lost $500 to an account wagering company right here in the states. One that people mention, even in this very thread. Trust me you are in no more control of your money in the US or CR.

Sufferindowns, you hit the nail on the head too. The third party ATM withdraw card you are speaking of went down the tubes do to third party negligence, NOT eHorse. We are currently working with another company on a similar venture. That was a great idea and one I'd like to see replaced ASAP.

It is not likely that Costa Rica and the US will be teaming up for a raid on eHorse any time soon. But I do remember a time when the FBI raided YOU BET right here in California...

[alysheba88]

I am somewhere between Isbets on this. Used to say exactly the same things Isbets is saying now, but have moved more in the other direction.

I understand the argument that without the owners there is no game. But the same holds true for the bettor. If there is no bettor there is no game. Both sides need each other. The one side has shown little concern for the bettor ever. Whether it be horseman drugging and manipulating their horses, track management providing indifferent service to bettors,overhcharging them every step of the way, to the state usurious take out rates. Refusing to run their star horses unless every possible advantage and sometimes even not then. All of these have done far more harm to the bettor than the bettor has done to them.

If everyone associated with the racing industry had shown more courtesy and respect to the bettor they would not be in the predictaments they are in with offshore.

I am the last of a dying breed who goes to the track for my action, but if I played every day would be very tempted to go offshore, especially since NJ cant get their act together regarding legal online alternatives.

If there were lower takouts there would be no need for rebates. If every track had a 10% takeout you would see a tremendous increase in handle. Everyone would win.

[lsbets]

Alysheba,

I am not talking about the big owners. Ultimatly the purses will always be there for the big races. I am talking about the claiming ranks, and that is where most of the races are. Most of us are bettors too. I have all of the same frustrations about the tracks and trainers who dope, and owners who cheat. I could care less about the big owners. Like I said, I am talking about the guys who do not do this for glory, but for the love of the sport. Unfortunatlely, the horsemen's associations tend to be run by the bigger owners, and don't pay much attention to the small ones. The owners I am talking about are the ones who win a 10K non2 in front of all of their friends and family, and to them that is like winning the Derby. They are the ones who provide racing day-in, day out, not the sheiks and businessmen.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Inglewood Flamingo
Paul B, You are absolutely right. Nothing would stop eHorse from doing what Ceejay said, but it is not likely to happen. eHorse makes much more money running it's business than taking the money and running, of to speak.

There's the rub. The possibility...and one could argue the Likely possibility.. that a day will come when you are not as healthy as today". The owner of a company like this could be blowing a million a week in Vegas. he has a bad month. Good Bye x-horse.

Thats a bad example.. but the Failure rate of Internet Business is fairly high. So in that Vien.. Your a little riskier than the people you compare to IMHO. I use Major Cards from Major Banks.. Fleet, Citizens et al. I may have to kick and fight for the $3200.00 that was in there.. But if a Gambling service inapprpiattely whacked my card for a quick $2500 and ran. My Bank would put it back tommorrow. I have a Gambling Code on the back of my cards.. I have Authorization codes that need to be matched on my records.. I can't be beat that way domestically.

[alysheba88]

I am sympathetic to what you are saying Isbets. Really I am. The small time owner and trainer have it real rough. To say nothing about the help.

I think there should be extensive tax breaks to horse ownership. We subsidize the farmer to death but not the horseman who creates far more jobs.

[Turntime]

I'd like to add my 2 cents to this interesting thread.

1. Virtually all of the big dollar players play into the rebate where the money goes into the pools. I don't think the bookmakers are a big threat to horseracing in general, after all they've been around long before Ehorse, etc.
2. Virtually all small tracks get the majority of their purse revenue from simulcast wagering at larger tracks - the live racing is usually a neccessary evil so the tracks can have a simulcast license. I fail to see where the bookmakers are having any kind of serious impact on the purse structure due to decreased handle.
3. Based on some of the things I've seen in the past, it seems that the horseman could give a darn about the bettors who support the game, so they shouldn't be surprised when we don't feel their pain.
4. Dedicated horseplayers are smart people who, like all good consumers, shop where they get the best deal. When all racetrack executives across the Country understand this concept, they'll quit their whining about how offshore bookmakers and rebate shops are hurting them and do something constructive to give horseplayers a fairer shake.

The reasons why most of us don't play with the books these days are the same reasons why we didn't in the past; payoff limits, worries about not getting paid, and their annoying habit of booting anyone who looks like a consistant winner (or severely limiting their action).

Right on CJ, Red Knave, and Alysheba. Horseplayers have been kicked around long enough. Since we lack a National organization to speak up for us, a little competition from from the offshore outfits is our only weapon to shake up the status quo. If the racetracks want our loyalty, they're going to have to earn it.

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

[lsbets]

Turn,

I do not disagree with you or anyone who says that bettors are not taken care of. I want to say again, because I don't feel that it has come across in my previous posts based on responses:

1) I do not defend the tracks in any way shape or form. I am not trying to say "save the tracks". Track management at Lonestar is pretty sick of hearing me tell them what they need to do to better serve the players(and they don't listen, because like I said before, they would rather charge for things that they do not have to split).

2) I do not defend the big owners - they could care less about the bettors.

3) My argument is that if the bookmakers were to take off, the people who would be hurt most are the little guy owners in the short term, and then the bettors in the long term if purses were to decline. Why the bettors? Because the quality of racing would ultimately decline as small owners and trainers are forced to leave the business. This would result in less races, and less betting opportunities.

No, it has not happenned on any large scale yet, purses have trended upwards for over a decade now. But there have been decreases at some tracks, and one of the major reasons cited has been the offshore betting hubs that do not go into the pools.

I hope I have been clear on who I am trying to defend here. It is not the tracks, large owners, or large trainers. It is the people who participate at the lowest levels of racing, and account for most of the races that we bet on.

[Larry Hamilton]

I must admit, I spent much time worrying over this problem. Do I, as a gambler, with absolutely no input or control over any aspect of the industry or any of the perifial businesses, owe them any measure of loyalty or favoritism. Despite the many-faceted arguments of Isbets, especially the "I would be betting myself out of business" facet, I say the game is mine (just as it is yours) to spend, waste, employ, enjoy, hate, love or discard as we choose.

I have a friend in the TV repair business. Twenty years ago we both got out of the army. I went back to school, he went into the tv repair business. We both knew that tv's were approaching throw-away prices rather than repair prices. He stayed on for many years. He didn't have to, he couldn't be advised that it was a bad business decision. Last week, he finally went under, but now he has about 3 acres of broken tv's used for parts AND IT WAS WHAT HE WANTED TO DO. I never once, felt obligated to visit his store and buy a used tv. Similarly, I feel no need to support anyone or anything in the horse business. It is my game and if it breaks, Ill find something else to do.

[JustMissed]

Congradulations on your straight 22 win streak.

If you have time would you post the winning odds for those races, or maybe the high, low and average?

We need all the input we can get from a winning player.

Thanks,

JustMissed

[Larry Hamilton]

I dont mind, though it is red boarding...

[pre]
Date Trk R# Odd fin Win$ Pla$ Sho$ Name
20030923 FPX 3 0.4 1 2.8 2.2 2.2 MORNING RISER
20030926 BEL 5 0.2 1 2.4 2.1 2.1 HANDSOME GENT
20030927 LAD 9 0.3 1 2.6 3 2.2 THE NINER ACCOUNT
20030927 WO 11 0.5 1 3 2.7 2.2 I'M SPEECHLESS
20030927 RP 5 0.4 1 2.8 2.2 2.1 MEDIUM RARE
20030927 FPX 13 0.8 1 3.6 2.8 2.4 GO YOYO
20030928 FL 7 0.8 1 3.6 3 2.7 TOKEN TONKO
20030929 FE 9 0.8 1 3.6 2.7 0 DEVIL'S GOOD GIRL
20030930 WDS 7 1.7 1 5.4 3.2 2.6 D D DOT COMM
20031001 WO 7 0.4 1 2.8 2.3 2.1 BLONDE EXECUTIVE
20031001 BM 2 0.5 1 3 2.1 0 TRUCKEE RIVER
20031002 FNO 5 0.8 1 3.6 2.6 2.8 OUR GAL FATALE
20031003 FL 3 1.3 1 4.6 2.7 2.4 SPECTACULARLY PINK
20031003 TUP 8 0.9 1 3.8 2.6 2.1 CENTURY BOULEVARD
20031004 BM 1 0.3 1 2.6 2.4 2.1 MISS TROPICS
20031004 LBG 8 1.05 1 4.1 2.5 2.3 THUMPERS GOLD
20031004 TUP 7 0.3 1 2.6 2.6 2.2 TULSA
20031004 HOO 5 0.3 1 2.6 2.6 2.2 JUNKET
20031005 BM 3 3.2 1 8.4 5 3.6 UPPITY KITTY
20031005 CT 4 0.6 1 3.2 2.4 2.2 GLIDES EMIGRANT
20031005 FNO 6 0.6 1 3.2 3 2.2 ROYALTY
20031005 RP 5 1.3 1 4.6 2.8 2.6 PLEASANT CLOUD
20031006 FL 8 0.8 1 3.6 2.4 2.1 SMOKIEISABANDIT
20031006 GLD 4 1.5 1 5 3.6 3.6 ALMA DANCER
20031006 TUP 5 0.8 1 3.6 3 2.6 PASSIONFORANNA
20031007 DEL 6 0.9 3 0 0 2.1 PELICAN BEACH
20031007 FL 8 0.95 1 3.9 3.3 2.8 RUBY'S ROCKET
20031007 SUF 1 1.1 4 0 0 0 MADDY'S PARTNER
20031008 WDS 9 0.6 1 3.2 3 3 TUNON
20031008 PEN 8 0.8 2 0 2.2 2.6 HARD CARD
20031008 SUF 1 0.5 1 3 2.6 2.2 JAZZ MUSIC
20031008 SUF 3 0.9 2 0 2.6 2.4 DANCE ALY DANCE

</pre>

sorry i cant get it to line up

[Inglewood Flamingo]

WAY TO GO LARRY! Hammering the chalk with a nail gun! Keep up the awesome cappin'!

[JustMissed]

Thanks Larry, that was very informative.

For about six months we have been following Davidowitz's Prime Bet money management scheme with the exception of no action bets.

We still play the exacta and trifectas occasionally but focus mostly on looking for 1 -6 Prime Bet plays per day covering two tracks.

Please don't try this till you test it on paper, but if you increase your bet size to $300 - $500 and continue to be as selective as you are-I believe your bankroll will increase exponentially.

If you care to backfit your 22 results with a $300 bet on the higher odds and $500 on the lower odds, I would love to see the results.

JustMissed
:)

[Larry Hamilton]

The only reason I posted this was to show you, you dont have to go for all longshots or all mid range or exotics and avoid heavy favorites. Take your profit where you find it, and this is where I find it.

This list is also why I started the conversation with ehorse. You cant bet $300 to win at Charlestown with money that goes thru their window.

[ceejay]

But, Larry, if you use e-horse (not their betting exchange) what is to stop them from laying your bet off by betting into the pool themselves (maybe even with a rebater), thereby reducing your payout? I can see that happening if you are consistently beating them (if they don't just cut you off) .

[Larry Hamilton]

agree cj--...but I think I will give them a shot, If I am able to tell if they lay it off with the track, then all this was just hot air...One thing is a fact, they sure as hell dont want to eat it, they will lay it off somewhere

[Suff]

Originally posted by Larry Hamilton
The only reason I posted this was to show you, you dont have to go for all longshots or all mid range or exotics and avoid heavy favorites. Take your profit where you find it, and this is where I find it.



Larry.. wow.. 22 in a row. Babe F'n Ruth. Congrats!

Too bad this link is about x-horse Larry. Interesting point. When you say "don't have too" ..do you mean that its a common perception or Myth that players need to play Longys or middlers?

I'd have thought it was the other way around ...but anyway. What your doing is High end stuff. What your doing requires a level of high intelligence and intermediatte to advanced DataBase skills..and Application skills. Spread sheets at a Minimum. Some programming skills are almost needed as well....

Anytime you wanna duke it out about Handicapping meet me after midnight in the Backroom of the general handicapping forum.

We'll talk. But don't bring all them fancy stats and words. I only have one handicapping stat. I'm Good.

[Larry Hamilton]

what I am suggesting is that we each have a unique comfort zone. That is some balance of ROI and win percentage and amount bet that turns each of us on. I have a friend who is perfectly comfortable with 10 or more misses in a row because he occasionally hits 50 dollar horses--that would drive me nuts.

[VetScratch]

I understand:
(1) The allure of Exchanges, where we may get better propositions than co-mingled parimutuel racetrack payouts.
(2) The allure of rebate programs.

I don't understand:
(1) Playing against an off-shore "house" for track-equivalent payouts.
(2) Why the off-shore "house" has any reason to retain customers who consistently beat the "house."

When you play against the "house" for racetrack payouts, you are still paying takeout and breakage. The only difference is that someone off-shore benefits while nothing gets contributed to the racetracks, horse industry, or state tax coffers.

The business model for the off-shore "house" cannot tolerate sustained action from successful whales (or even schools of dolphins) who go off-shore to avoid parimutuel odds dilution. One way or another, significant and/or consistent winners must be eliminated (in order to optimize the "house" edge).

If anyone gets turned away, it will be the winners.

If anyone gets ripped off, the winners will be the first victims.

If anyone strikes an information exchange bargain to avert legal or political pressures, the winners will be the first to get reported since tax evasion is the easiest path to prosecutions and the kind of media publicity that will discourage "illegal" off-shore wagering.

What don't I get? It seems to me that going off-shore can only be a somewhat risky hit-and-run proposition for successful players.

[Inglewood Flamingo]

Guys, Once again. eHorse does NOT, repeat does NOT put bets into the pool. Think about it. There are certainly enough losing wagers to offset the winning ones. That is how this business works, at least long term. I am not saying that other companies don't do this, but to the best of my knowledge it has not happened at eHorse.
Also, as far as booting out winning players, the same theory above applies. There are enough long term losers to cover the winning ones.
Plus if you are wagering at eHorse due to the fact that you enjoy playing small tracks and want to bet $300 to win, how long will it take you to realize your bet just got dumped into the track pool? Not very long unless your Stevie Wonder.

[lsbets]

Inglewood

Coming from me, you have to take this with a grain of salt, and I am sure you will be insulted, but I have never been one to hold back. Hearing someone who runs an illegal offshore gaming operation say basically "trust us, we're honest" is kind of like hearing one of those tout services say they get 80% winners paying an average of $20 per horse.

[Inglewood Flamingo]

Isbets, I completely understand your opinion. First off, we are not illegal! The reason eHorse IS based in Costa Rica is to abide by legal gaming laws and NOT break them. If not, we would be setting up shop at your corner watering hole or at the IRS sign up window at your local track.
At this point I can talk until I am blue in the face. I guess if you want the real truth as to whether eHorse shuffles your bets into the polls is to just give us a try.
And for the record, I am not in the least bit insulted. These are the same questions I too asked BEFORE taking a position with such a reputable company.
Before I sign off for the evening ,I would like to point out one final thing; eHorse, unlike MOST or ALL other offshore books that take wagers on horses, make horse racing their primary focus, not some secondary form of action to complete their betting menu. This company is dedicated to being the BEST place to wager for the horseplayer, offshore or NOT, period.

[VetScratch]

In posts about off-shore wagering sites (i.e., excluding exchanges and rebaters), I have never seen an argument that shows any benefits for honest losing horseplayers.

Interest in off-shore wagering always seems to come from folks who "are" winning horseplayers. The three plausible attractions for winners are:
(1) Precluding odds dilution by keeping their action out of the pools.
(2) Questionable opportunities for U.S. tax avoidance/evasion.
(3) Questionable opportunities to wash and import U.S. dollars.

If off-shore has no benefits for honest losers, that should discourage the vast majority of players from going off-shore. However, if off-shore attracts primarily winners, then the off-shore business model is doomed to fail.

It seems to me the alligators must be smiling (winners who are losers in denial) or the crocadiles must be laughing (off-shore operators who solicit business from winners).

Finally, if tax evasion or money laundering is a matter of consequence, then such activities represent financial terrorism just like the activities of al-Qa'ida and drug cartel "bankers" who work against the best interests of U.S. citizens.

Bombs away! :)

[ceejay]

Originally posted by Inglewood Flamingo
Guys, Once again. eHorse does NOT, repeat does NOT put bets into the pool. Think about it. There are certainly enough losing wagers to offset the winning ones. That is how this business works, at least long term. I am not saying that other companies don't do this, but to the best of my knowledge it has not happened at eHorse.
Also, as far as booting out winning players, the same theory above applies. There are enough long term losers to cover the winning ones.
Plus if you are wagering at eHorse due to the fact that you enjoy playing small tracks and want to bet $300 to win, how long will it take you to realize your bet just got dumped into the track pool? Not very long unless your Stevie Wonder.

Frankly, I don't believe that you will continue to take action from a large-scale winner beating you for $500 a day without laying it off.

It is interesting that yoy start your rant with "eHorse does NOT, repeat does NOT put bets into the pool." But you go on to say "to the best of my knowledge it has not happened at eHorse" which seems like a hedge to me.

You say in this thread that you are the Director of Marketing. But, from your comments you must know what goes on in the wagering side. Or are you just responsible for marketing.

Good luck to all.

[Inglewood Flamingo]

Ceejay, you are correct. That was exactly what I said. While I do know a lot about what goes on in CR at eHorse and what our policies are, I am the Director of Marketing. My job is to spead the word about our offshore racebook and attract new clients, as well as answering questions from potential new ones. I have many clients that wager a LOT more than $500 a race and I don't hear them screaming about how the odds dropped at the last flash on their horses.

As I said before to everyone enjoying this thread, just give eHorse a try to really find out what we do. Just like in handicapping, first hand knowledge is king.

Have a winning weekend.

[lsbets]

Inglewood - you are correct, ehorse is not illiagal - in Costa Rica. It is however illegal in the U.S.

Now, I am not accusing e-horse of anything, or accusing any other company of anything, but along the lines of what Vetscratch said, because I have been thinking this. Offshore internet gaming operations would be a great way to launder money. Operate a small front operation and then deposit "wagers won" into a U.S. bank account. Comes in clean, very hard to trace. It would be a good way to do it.

[PaceAdvantage]

Your local racetrack is probably just as good a money laundering vehicle as any offshore book, true?

[cj]

I've often wondered if laundering is what is behind the ridiculous "bridge jumping" into the show pools. If you think of it, what sane person would do such a thing if he wasn't trying to wash some cash?

[VetScratch]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Your local racetrack is probably just as good a money laundering vehicle as any offshore book, true? Quite true for discounted currency (dirty money) already in the U.S. because deposit/transfer conduits into off-shore wagering accounts would be the risky link. However, I think Isbets was inferring that off-shore regulations and financial infrastructures may facilitate importing the discounted value of dirty or counterfeit foreign-held dollars into the U.S.

Submerged among thousands of "straight" off-shore accounts, a past-posting conspiracy that avoids co-mingling in our pools could enable bad guys to create a mix of winning and losing bets that would be difficult to untangle. Their target results do not need to show a profit so long as they beat other smuggling alternatives with respect to risk and the effective "underground" discount rate.

I think several investigative news features have asserted that the bulk of counterfeit U.S. currency never "physically" enters the United States. Likewise, the crates of $100 bills found in Iraq were "earned at a substantial discount" (by skimming the Oil For Aid program), so a clever way of importing discounted value may be more appealing than physically smuggling the loot into the U.S.

The way foreign aid programs seem to work aids and abets the crooks. After corruption skims 70% of the aid dollars, the poor are still starving, so we increase our aid and let the crooks skim 70% of the larger amount.

DO NOT INTERPRET ANY OF THIS AS AN ALLEGATION AGAINST EHORSE. YOUR LOCAL BANKER MAY BE THE ONE WHO IS TAKING A BITE OF THE APPLE.

[Tom]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
I've often wondered if laundering is what is behind the ridiculous "bridge jumping" into the show pools. If you think of it, what sane person would do such a thing if he wasn't trying to wash some cash?

Maybe that's why the new bills have color in them?
So that they will run if you wash them and eventually fade out?:rolleyes:

[VetScratch]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
I've often wondered if laundering is what is behind the ridiculous "bridge jumping" into the show pools. If you think of it, what sane person would do such a thing if he wasn't trying to wash some cash?Originally posted by Tom
Maybe that's why the new bills have color in them?
So that they will run if you wash them and eventually fade out?:rolleyes: Let's really veer into conspiracy mentality by asking which concept came first, parimutuel laundering or pre-washed jeans from Calvin Klein? :D

(... just a NYRA joke ...)

[lsbets]

Pace,

I have to think about the local racetrack angle. I'm not sure. Obviously not if the goal is to bring money into the U.S., and I would say it isn't if the goal is to have bankable money - ie, not cash, something that you can put in an account and wire or use checks, etc. Plus, you would have to win (or at least lose small) at the local track, and we all know that is not easy.

[Turntime]

I take exception to the insulting of our intelligence by inglewood flamingo. He is either lying or exceptionally naive about the operation at ehorse. Ehorse is in business to make a profit, and can't do so if they book too many winners. There is not a bookmaker, past or present, that does not boot out, severely limit action, or bet into the pools the action of winning players. They could not survive otherwise. It's just another wolf in sheeps clothing. As I stated before, all the big money players are betting into the pools through one of the rebate outfits. Offshore bookmakers do not pose a threat to the health of horseracing.

[Larry Hamilton]

As many of you aware, I no longer read so well, but after cato's post, I looked up "illegal internet gambling" and got this:

http://rpc.senate.gov/releases/2003/bk090303.pdf

what I read was that ALL gambling on a wire (phone or internet) is ILLEGAL. You cannot call BRIS, or YOUBET or PHILLY or Costa Rica. Please tell me I am wrong.

[BillW]

Originally posted by Larry Hamilton
As many of you aware, I no longer read so well, but after cato's post, I looked up "illegal internet gambling" and got this:

http://rpc.senate.gov/releases/2003/bk090303.pdf

what I read was that ALL gambling on a wire (phone or internet) is ILLEGAL. You cannot call BRIS, or YOUBET or PHILLY or Costa Rica. Please tell me I am wrong.

I think you have it right, Larry. :eek:

Bill

[PaceAdvantage]

You are wrong, or else BRIS, YouBet and Philly would have been hauled to court a long time ago....also, all interstate simulcast betting would be outlawed as well...

There is some exemption in there for Pari-Mutuel horse racing I believe, which allows simulcasting between states over phone-wires to occur....

[BillW]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
You are wrong, or else BRIS, YouBet and Philly would have been hauled to court a long time ago....also, all interstate simulcast betting would be outlawed as well...

There is some exemption in there for Pari-Mutuel horse racing I believe, which allows simulcasting between states over phone-wires to occur....

Does the exemption include private individuals or just businesses?

[PaulB]

what I read was that ALL gambling on a wire (phone or internet) is ILLEGAL. You cannot call BRIS, or YOUBET or PHILLY or Costa Rica. Please tell me I am wrong.

Winticket.com is owned and operated by the State of Ohio.
I'm sure it is possible that a state government would openly violate federal law, but it seems unlikely.

The federal prohibition on gambling by wire may fall into the same catagory as the law in Texas against carrying wire cutters after sundown - it's on the books but it is not enforced.

[GameTheory]

The FEDERAL law (the Wire Act) does not apply to bettors -- it applies to those that take bets. YouBet, BrisBet, etc. are not illegal to operate under an amendment to the Wire Act known as the Interstate Horseracing Act.

All other gambling laws are at the state level. So BrisBet, etc are illegal for residents of certain states to use (completely or partially), which is why depending on where you live you may not be able to use them, or may not be able to bet on certain tracks. (The Horseracing ammendment allows interstate betting on horseracing, but still leaves it up to the individual states whether or not they want to allow it.) And off-shore sites are illegal to operate according to U.S. law, even though they aren't in the U.S. However, U.S. citizens can be(and have been successfully) prosecuted for running an offshore gambling site. Whether all gambling, or just betting on sports is illegal is under debate. (The Wire Act applies specifically to betting on sports, not games of chance or skill against others. However, the Supreme Court refused to look at the case of Jay Cohen, who was convicted of running an off shore gambling site -- not horseracing related.)

But the only laws that apply to individual bettors at this time are at the state level and vary widely. It is quite clearly illegal in certain states, a gray area in others, and some states may not have laws covering the subject at all...

[GameTheory]

By the way, I know people who most definitely are winners and bet with ehorse, and have not been kicked out yet. No evidence that their money is being laid off either. And since they let you bet up to the last second, they don't really have time anyway...

[PaulB]

Ehorse could lay off a big winner's bet if he bet early enough - thirty seconds before the pool is closed.

When we say that there is no evidence that they do this - I don't know how evidence could be gathered without subpoenaing the records of every on-shore betting site in the country. That still might not tell you anything. If Ehorse lays bets off they would be doing it through someone like BRIS or Youbet, and probably under an assumed identity.

I have made fairly large bets through Ehorse on smaller tracks and have seen the odds on my horse fall dramatically after post time.

Does this mean that my bets are being laid off? No, the money could have originated from anywhere.

My own take on this is that Ehorse has plenty of losers to make up for the few winners without resorting to anything devious.

[GameTheory]

I mean no obvious evidence by watching the pools -- it would be pretty easy to spot at small tracks if they did it consistently, although they put limits on the bets (understandably). Even if they do lay off wagers, I don't think there would be anything wrong with that -- in fact, many here would apparently consider it a good thing to get that money back in the pools. You still get the rebate...

[BillW]

Originally posted by GameTheory
I mean no obvious evidence by watching the pools -- it would be pretty easy to spot at small tracks if they did it consistently, although they put limits on the bets (understandably). Even if they do lay off wagers, I don't think there would be anything wrong with that -- in fact, many here would apparently consider it a good thing to get that money back in the pools. You still get the rebate...

It would have the unwelcome effect of knocking down the odds. Possibly negating the rebate.

Bill

[GameTheory]

Yeah, but given a choice between betting into the pools (offshore) and getting a rebate and also betting into the pools (domestic) with no rebate and I'll still take the rebate. Point being there is nothing "shameful" about them putting the money back in the pools, as long as they're up front about it. I suspect they make more money not doing that, however, and taking the risk with winning players...

[VetScratch]

Disregarding all other issues, wouldn't off-shore sites best serve the horseplayers and the industry by:
(1) Co-mingling into track pools.
(2) Offering rebates.

If they were able to buy simulcasting from NYRA at 4% (approx. current cost), they could offer rebates by operating at lower costs than their effective 10% takeout rate (14% - 4%). Many off-shore locations offer cost advantages that could be passed back to players as rebates. How about a China-based provider?

The horse industry would reverse its lobby position against rebating if all off-track wagering was via simulcasting (on-shore and off-shore) and simulcasting provided them with a better deal. From NYRA simulcast handles, horsemen currently get about 2% (half of the 4% simulcast sale price). The horse industry will never support rebates until horsemen get a better deal than 2% of simulcast handles.

[ceejay]

Originally posted by GameTheory
Point being there is nothing "shameful" about them putting the money back in the pools, as long as they're up front about it.

Well, eHorse's Director of Marketing said on this thread:
"Guys, Once again. eHorse does NOT, repeat does NOT put bets into the pool.".
Moreover, their FAQ's state
"14. Which pool does my money go into? Your wagers will not be placed in a pool. eHorse.com is non pari-mutuel racebook, this allows you to wager without affecting the horses odds."

So, if they are doing it they are not up front about it.

[GameTheory]

Originally posted by ceejay
Well, eHorse's Director of Marketing said on this thread:
"Guys, Once again. eHorse does NOT, repeat does NOT put bets into the pool.".
Moreover, their FAQ's state
"14. Which pool does my money go into? Your wagers will not be placed in a pool. eHorse.com is non pari-mutuel racebook, this allows you to wager without affecting the horses odds."

So, if they are doing it they are not up front about it.

And there is no indication that they are doing it, so that's fine. You can't prove it either way, of course, but then again you can't prove some clever programmer at YouBet or BrisBet hasn't identified if you're a winning player and doubles-up your plays with their own wagers either. I've bet with eHorse in the past (though not lately) and have received nothing but good service. And the rebate is nice...