"Proprietary Knowledge"

[mountainman]

In my opinion, there is an ethical imperative for anyone who sells books on handicapping or is paid to talk about handicapping, to hold back nothing (time or space permitting) relevant to their immediate topic. Tout sevices are one thing, but any author, columnist, or even analyst taking money to dispense handicapping wisdom forfeits the right to "proprietary" theories or methods. I'm not saying that writing one book makes every iota of the author's knowledge part of the public domain, but I do think any book predicated on some methodology should deconstruct that method to the nuts and bolts. I've been frustrated by literature that played coy when it came to stripping their systems bare. And I pity readers attempting to piece together something they've already paid for. Any feedback?

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Those that can't...... teach, tout or write books.

Those that can...... bet.

[mountainman]

Those that can't...... teach, tout or write books.

Those that can...... bet.
I'm on the floor here. Not because I agree (or disagree)-but simply because your response is soooo you. Keep it real man.

[Robert Fischer]

how was the book advertised?

[GameTheory]

I'm "piecing together" that you're talking about Cary Fotias, although not necessarily exclusively. So putting Cary aside because we've just discussed him and his book, are there any other examples you're thinking of here?

[the little guy]

In my opinion, there is an ethical imperative for anyone who sells books on handicapping or is paid to talk about handicapping, to hold back nothing (time or space permitting) relevant to their immediate topic. Tout sevices are one thing, but any author, columnist, or even analyst taking money to dispense handicapping wisdom forfeits the right to "proprietary" theories or methods. I'm not saying that writing one book makes every iota of the author's knowledge part of the public domain, but I do think any book predicated on some methodology should deconstruct that method to the nuts and bolts. I've been frustrated by literature that played coy when it came to stripping their systems bare. And I pity readers attempting to piece together something they've already paid for. Any feedback?


I have no particular argument with your above post but am curious about the following post that was posted in this thread http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=982680#post982680 a while ago



That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm already unpopular with plenty of horsemen because of my blunt commentary. That's cool. My job isn't to be their best buddy and booster, but to deliver candid analysis. But if I started to spill things about their stock that i'm only aware of because of my morning job, they would lynch me. Literally. There is a confidence between horsemen and officials that I won't violate. And I doubt the superiors I respect and answer to at Mnr would approve of me crossing that line. The boundaries don't solely exclude me giving info about mnr's vet's or steward's list. I also can't divulge anything concerning claims I might be aware of, or dish that a horse, for instance, was entered at the office's behest to fill a race. I could list other no no's, but you get the idea.

[Robert Goren]

Those that can't...... teach, tout or write books.

Those that can...... bet.Those who can't teach, tout or write books, post here in off topics. ;)

[mountainman]

I'm "piecing together" that you're talking about Cary Fotias, although not necessarily exclusively. So putting Cary aside because we've just discussed him and his book, are there any other examples you're thinking of here?

My purpose wasn't to call out any specific author-just to spark conversation about how much disclosure those paid to talk or write about handicapping owe the public.

[highnote]

Ragozin didn't disclose his method of making speed figures in his book.

In Fotias' case, I know that he is a serious bettor and sells his figures to a select clientele. If everyone knew his methods then his prices and his clienteles prices would go down. I can see the logic in his not wanting to disclose all his methods.

It's no different than a Dr. Edward O. Thorp writing "Beat The Market" and explaining some of his trading methodologies, but not all of them. The idea for Thorp's book was to try to raise money for his hedge fund. It apparantly worked.

Back to Fotias ... he did tell how to use his figures. Others are free to use his ideas with other figures or to make their own. He told people his figures are velocity based and that they are a hybrid of Sartin, Beyer and Ragozin.

If you have any programming ability at all or knowledge of horseracing then it would be a snap to make your own. So to me, explaining his methodolgy for making the figures would be boring.

Just read Brohammer if you want to learn how to do pace numbers.

[mountainman]

I have no particular argument with your above post but am curious about the following post that was posted in this thread http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=982680#post982680 a while ago

Apples and oranges. Respecting personal confidences or certain boundaries to which a racing official is subjected has nothing to do with the holding back of handicapping theory one is specifically paid to purvey. Thanks for remembering my earlier post, though. I'm flattered.

[the little guy]

Apples and oranges. Respecting personal confidences or certain boundaries to which a racing official is subjected has nothing to do with the holding back of handicapping theory one is specifically paid to purvey. Thanks for remembering my earlier post, though. I'm flattered.


You need to reread your post that began this thread.

[mountainman]

In Fotias' case, I know that he is a serious bettor and sells his figures to a select clientele. If everyone knew his methods then his prices and his clienteles prices would go down.

Then don't sell books predicated on what you aren't willing to deliver.

[Robert Fischer]

mentors > books

[mountainman]

You need to reread your post that began this thread.

No, you need to reread it. The type of info that a racing official (by custom and common sense) is forbidden to divulge hardly constitutes any "theory or method." Now I'm the one who is curious. What jobs have you held in the industry aside from tv analyst? If that's too personal, please excuse me.

[the little guy]

No, you need to reread it. The type of info that a racing official (by custom and common sense) is forbidden to divulge hardly constitutes any "system or methodology." Now I'm the one who is curious. What jobs have you held in the industry aside from tv analyst?


Don't deflect this with your sudden curiousity. You claimed, and let me quote, " In my opinion, there is an ethical imperative for anyone who sells books on handicapping or is paid to talk about handicapping, to hold back nothing (time or space permitting) relevant to their immediate topic. " But, suddenly, this is not relevent to your previous admission of withholding information that may well be relevent to the topics being discussed in your job.

[Show Me the Wire]

Don't deflect this with your sudden curiousity. You claimed, and let me quote, " In my opinion, there is an ethical imperative for anyone who sells books on handicapping or is paid to talk about handicapping, to hold back nothing (time or space permitting) relevant to their immediate topic. " But, suddenly, this is not relevent to your previous admission of withholding information that may well be relevent to the topics being discussed in your job.

Apples and oranges. Selecting horses and giving basic handicapping tips for a track is vastly different than selling a method for personal commercial gain. Also one is proprietary (owned or devoloped by the seller) and the other is a confidence not owned or developed by the seller.

[Relwob Owner]

I have no particular argument with your above post but am curious about the following post that was posted in this thread http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=982680#post982680 a while ago


I would support the "apples and oranges" theory....Seems to me that the example you are citing is more related to his take on specific knowledge gotten in confidence and not disclosing that, whereas the spirit of the thread was more related to people who write books being obligated to share all of their systems and methods and not hold them back.

[teddy]

I think most analyst shows are pretty good at disclosing the method. The river downs guys even put on a copy of the form and show the running lines that drive their picks. Turf P. always says why... most do.

[mountainman]

relevant to their immediate topic. "

Yes. And handicapping, not inside information, is the relevant topic. Do you categorize inside information as (any) part of the handicapping process? Now I'm very curious. And since you've engendered debate by invoking posts that outline my separate duties at mnr, I do think the scope of your own experience becomes relevant, So again, what other jobs have you held in the industry-positions unrelated to handicapping, that is? I'll list mine if that might be helpful.

[Saratoga_Mike]

TLG,

Do you fully disclose everything you learn from backstretch or press box conservations on your handicapping segments? I would think not, but I'm curious.

[bigmack]

I've seen Dick Schmidt refer to others using TPR without permission. Can an equation be infringed upon?

[GameTheory]

The only ethical imperative an author owes his (potential) audience is to:

-- tell the truth in the things that he *does* say

-- not misrepresent what he is offering

So if someone is deliberately spreading info they know to be false, or they are just "making up shit" as many authors do (system sellers, often under fake names or multiple names), that's unethical.

And if a book really is nothing but a commercial, and that is not made clear, especially if the info presented is totally worthless without X product, then that is a legitimate beef. And I think it is fair to criticize Cary Fotias on that charge because there is nothing on the cover that would lead you to believe he was selling an another product, which is clearly what he is doing. But once you get over that there is some good stuff in his book, so I'm sure many would still be glad they had it even though it is hard to shake the feeling that you've been taken.

But more in line with your point, does an author really need to give away all his secrets or forget about writing a book? I don't think so, unless he claims he is going to give you all the secrets and then doesn't, or wants you to buy something else to get them, etc.

Horse handicapping literature is a tiny market. That's why everything sucks so much. If there were big sales to be had, there would be more professionalism and people would be more inclined to give away their secrets if they were actually going to be compensated. I mean, if I look at a handicapping book and it has fairly comprehensible sentences and not too many spelling errors I have to consider it "well-done" just on that basis compared to the average dreck. I've got a few books that I cannot even figure out what the hell they are talking about they are so badly "written".

[mountainman]

I've seen Dick Schmidt refer to others using TPR without permission. Can an equation be infringed upon?

Great question with wide ramifications in my profession. A lot of what we know, we learned or swiped from other handicappers. But we can't pause every 10 seconds to offer attribution. I guess the question could be: At what point does publicly stated or printed info become part of the public domain? It's a fine line in some cases.

[the little guy]

TLG,

Do you fully disclose everything you learn from backstretch or press box conservations on your handicapping segments? I would think not, but I'm curious.


What little information I have, which is minute, I divulge if it is relevent. There are numerous examples of Jason and/or I talking about " tips " we have heard. Since I am not interested in tips, and very rarely center plays around first time starters, there isn't much information to divulge. I do not, and would not, withhold information. I also make it clear to people at the racetrack that if they give me tips, I will repeat these on TV. However, as most racetrack information is misleading, I basically ignore it.

I'm a handicapper. That's the information that interests me and what I impart. I have zero interest in racetrack rumor.

[mountainman]

The only ethical imperative an author owes his (potential) audience is to:

-- tell the truth in the things that he *does* say

-- not misrepresent what he is offering

So if someone is deliberately spreading info they know to be false, or they are just "making up shit" as many authors do (system sellers, often under fake names or multiple names), that's unethical.

And if a book really is nothing but a commercial, and that is not made clear, especially if the info presented is totally worthless without X product, then that is a legitimate beef. And I think it is fair to criticize Cary Fotias on that charge because there is nothing on the cover that would lead you to believe he was selling an another product, which is clearly what he is doing. But once you get over that there is some good stuff in his book, so I'm sure many would still be glad they had it even though it is hard to shake the feeling that you've been taken.

But more in line with your point, does an author really need to give away all his secrets or forget about writing a book? I don't think so, unless he claims he is going to give you all the secrets and then doesn't, or wants you to buy something else to get them, etc.

Horse handicapping literature is a tiny market. That's why everything sucks so much. If there were big sales to be had, there would be more professionalism and people would be more inclined to give away their secrets if they were actually going to be compensated. I mean, if I look at a handicapping book and it has fairly comprehensible sentences and not too many spelling errors I have to consider it "well-done" just on that basis compared to the average dreck. I've got a few books that I cannot even figure out what the hell they are talking about they are so badly "written".

For the record, I think Fotias is very knowledgeable.

[GameTheory]

For the record, I think Fotias is very knowledgeable.So do I, but I do understand why some people are pissed after buying his book. My copy was given to me for free, and I was still slightly pissed. But that went away when I started playing around with the methods. (Another thing that is annoying about his book is that he essentially says, "This stuff will ONLY work with my figures." Which thankfully isn't true. Oops, got him on the truth thing too -- sorry Cary!)

[the little guy]

Yes. And handicapping, not inside information, is the relevant topic. Do you categorize inside information as (any) part of the handicapping process? Now I'm very curious. And since you've engendered debate by invoking posts that outline my separate duties at mnr, I do think the scope of your own experience becomes relevant, So again, what other jobs have you held in the industry-positions unrelated to handicapping, that is? I'll list mine if that might be helpful.


You are the author of this thread and the seeming theme of your original post runs contrary to your previous disclosures. This is not relevent to my job resume, either within this industry, or elsewhere. Perhaps now it is important for you to deflect away from that, which I get, and ask other questions. However, that doesn't change the contradiction.

Not that it matters, but since you seem bent on trying to prove some point that alludes me, I will answer you.....NONE.

[Saratoga_Mike]

You are the author of this thread and the seeming theme of your original post runs contrary to your previous disclosures. This is not relevent to my job resume, either within this industry, or elsewhere. Perhaps now it is important for you to deflect away from that, which I get, and ask other questions. However, that doesn't change the contradiction.

Not that it matters, but since you seem bent on trying to prove some point that alludes me, I will answer you.....NONE.

How did you get the job with no prior experience? I know this is off-topic, but I think most would be interested in the answer.

[the little guy]

How did you get the job with no prior experience? I know this is off-topic, but I think most would be interested in the answer.


This is not a great moment of reading comprehension for you.



As an aside, I am not going to allow this thread to be diverted to my resume. It's not relevent as anything other than a diversion....both specifically or generally.

[mountainman]

So do I, but I do understand why some people are pissed after buying his book. My copy was given to me for free, and I was still slightly pissed. But that went away when I started playing around with the methods. (Another thing that is annoying about his book is that he essentially says, "This stuff will ONLY work with my figures." Which thankfully isn't true. Oops, got him on the truth thing too -- sorry Cary!)

I read as many handicapping books as I have time to. Most are junk, but many have a worthwhile point or two to convey.

[cj]

So do I, but I do understand why some people are pissed after buying his book. My copy was given to me for free, and I was still slightly pissed. But that went away when I started playing around with the methods. (Another thing that is annoying about his book is that he essentially says, "This stuff will ONLY work with my figures." Which thankfully isn't true. Oops, got him on the truth thing too -- sorry Cary!)

I was too, mostly because I was reading it in the sun in Saudi Arabia and the glue weakened and the book fell apart.

[Fat Syd]

What little information I have, which is minute, I divulge if it is relevent. There are numerous examples of Jason and/or I talking about " tips " we have heard. Since I am not interested in tips, and very rarely center plays around first time starters, there isn't much information to divulge. I do not, and would not, withhold information. I also make it clear to people at the racetrack that if they give me tips, I will repeat these on TV. However, as most racetrack information is misleading, I basically ignore it.

I'm a handicapper. That's the information that interests me and what I impart. I have zero interest in racetrack rumor.
Do trainers ever ask you for your opinion on what type of race you think their horse will be successful in. If and when that happens, have you had any specific success or failure with any horses or races that we would have known about as casual race fans?
Are you close to any trainers on the NY scene that employ your opinions more often then not?

[Exotic1]

Then don't sell books predicated on what you aren't willing to deliver.

Are you claiming that Fotias sold books predicated on something that he didn't deliver on? Are you defining "new frontiers in Form cycle analysis" a topic he didn't address? I didn't buy or read the book but I can't imagine that he didn't cover that subject. The author, I'm sure, felt as though he brought the reader closer to a frontier that the author suggested exists.

To demand, that any author should not withhold any relevant information regarding the main topic of their book, is absurd. If the author, by general consensus, discloses a complete methodology, then that author has fulfilled their obligation. Wait for version 2 or version 3 for a supplement or revision.

[Cardus]

By including "anyone who... is paid to talk about handicapping," it was fair for anyone to juxtapose the thread starter's post from a few months ago.

[the little guy]

Do trainers ever ask you for your opinion on what type of race you think their horse will be successful in. If and when that happens, have you had any specific success or failure with any horses or races that we would have known about as casual race fans?
Are you close to any trainers on the NY seen that employ your opinions more often then not?

Not that I can think of save once ( Nick Zito asked me if I thought he should run Commentator in the 2005 Whitney about a week before the race. I told him he should as he had nothing to lose, had basically one horse to beat, and Commentator had viable excuses in his one 1 1/8 failure. ). Trainers ask me what I think of their chances in races...but not where to place them.

Last year, I repeatedly said on the show that I couldn't understand why Gary Contessa kept running Castenada in route races, and that he should turn him back. Eventually, he conceded that he should follow my advice, and promptly won three races with him including a Stake. He was extremely gracious in thanking me.

I am very friendly with a lot of trainers, though Nick is the only one I would say is a close personal friend, but we rarely talk about those kinds of things. I would never be so presumptuous to suggest that I know better than them and, honestly, they don't ask. I am glad they don't. I don't need the responsibility...as likely my advice would suck.

[Robert Fischer]

TLG - who makes the best pizza??

[Saratoga_Mike]

This is not a great moment of reading comprehension for you.



As an aside, I am not going to allow this thread to be diverted to my resume. It's not relevent as anything other than a diversion....both specifically or generally.

I don't have a reading comprehension problem. I stated after my question - this is off-topic. If you didn't want to reply, you didn't have to reply. But instead being the great ambassador that you are to racing fans, you replied with your usual snide remarks.

Given you’ve taken a shot at me, let me reciprocate. It is utterly delicious when you come on and whine about the negativity of Internet message boards. The vast majority of your posts are negative, condescending or rude. And if you don’t like Internet message boards, why are you on so many of them? The hypocrisy is too much.

[the little guy]

I don't have a reading comprehension problem. I stated after my question - this is off-topic. If you didn't want to reply, you didn't have to reply. But instead being the great ambassador that you are to racing fans, you replied with your usual snide remarks.

Given you’ve taken a shot at me, let me reciprocate. It is utterly delicious when you come on and whine about the negativity of Internet message boards. The vast majority of your posts are negative, condescending or rude. And if you don’t like Internet message boards, why are you on so many of them? The hypocrisy is too much.


Oh for God's sake....I was fukking joking.

I give up.

[Overlay]

And if a book really is nothing but a commercial, and that is not made clear, especially if the info presented is totally worthless without X product, then that is a legitimate beef.

That was a problem that was pointed out a few years ago with "Value Betting at the Racetrack", which was a protracted discussion of why angles wouldn't work, with the intent of steering readers to use of the Valuline fair-odds service (which subscribers still had to pay for, after already having purchased the book), while providing no insights into how people could come up with their own betting lines, and presenting no data concerning Valuline's effectiveness (especially regarding the relative performance of line overlays versus line underlays, as requested by several board members).

[Saratoga_Mike]

Oh for God's sake....I was fukking joking.

I give up.

On your program, you're sometimes funny and often witty, but on this board you're a different person. I'm not sure why. Moreover, if I had said to you, "not your best day for reading comprehension," you wouldn't have been offended? Please.

[Relwob Owner]

By including "anyone who... is paid to talk about handicapping," it was fair for anyone to juxtapose the thread starter's post from a few months ago.


If that was the only comment included, I would agree with you. However, the rest of the thread starting post seemed to make it clear that he was referring to systems and stratgies, whereas his post a month ago was more related to general info about a horse given in confidence.

[the little guy]

On your program, you're sometimes funny and often witty, but on this board you're a different person. I'm not sure why.

Because people like you misread what I write. Now I know why....you have an issue.

Interesting, though, that you acknowledge that I am " funny an witty " but cannot see that in my posts here. It is unbelievably tiresome.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Because people like you misread what I write. Now I know why....you have an issue.

Interesting, though, that you acknowledge that I am " funny an witty " but cannot see that in my posts here. It is unbelievably tiresome.

Andy, what is my issue? I'm acknowledging your talents. I'm being genuine.

[Fat Syd]

I often wondered if trainers employeed handicappers to guide them. Trainers know horses but how many actually handicap, Bob Frankel was represented as a handicapper, maybe that is why his horses seemed always well spotted? Thank you for your insight.

[the little guy]

Andy, what is my issue? I'm acknowledging your talents. I'm being genuine.


You took a massive, and undeserved, shot at me in this thread. Even if you had misread what I said, was it really necessary to become nasty?

[PaceAdvantage]

TLG brings up an excellent point to mountainman, but because of who he is, he gets the usual shit thrown his way...allow me to clear the air:

Mountainman states this in his OP:

In my opinion, there is an ethical imperative for anyone who sells books on handicapping or is paid to talk about handicapping, to hold back nothing (time or space permitting) relevant to their immediate topic.Now, TLG comes into the discussion with something Mountainman wrote a while ago:

But if I started to spill things about their stock that i'm only aware of because of my morning job, they would lynch me. Literally. There is a confidence between horsemen and officials that I won't violate. And I doubt the superiors I respect and answer to at Mnr would approve of me crossing that line. The boundaries don't solely exclude me giving info about mnr's vet's or steward's list. I also can't divulge anything concerning claims I might be aware of, or dish that a horse, for instance, was entered at the office's behest to fill a race.I have bolded some very relevant points. At the top of this thread, Mountainman states in no uncertain terms that as someone who is PAID TO TALK ABOUT HANDICAPPING (his words, and the reader must assume that Mountainman and TLG are BOTH paid to talk about handicapping, everyday, on the air), NOTHING is to be HELD BACK relevant to their immediate topic.

Isn't a horse who was entered at the behest of the racing office to fill a race something that EVERY RACING FAN WOULD WANT TO KNOW? And isn't Mountainman, if he is holding back this knowledge from the fan, going against what he said in the original post? Perhaps there is a conflict of interest here with Mountainman both as an on-air personality and a backstretch or racing office employee. But this is his thread, and perhaps he didn't mean to include the likes of himself and TLG when he wrote "PAID TO TALK ABOUT HANDICAPPING."

How exactly is this apples to oranges?

[Saratoga_Mike]

You took a massive, and undeserved, shot at me in this thread. Even if you had misread what I said, was it really necessary to become nasty?

Andy,

You know damn well if someone said to you "not your best day for reading comprehension," you would have come back swinging. Come on, I want you to be honest.

[Relwob Owner]

Oh for God's sake....I was fukking joking.

I give up.


Why give up? You told him he has a reading comprehension problem and he didnt see it as a joke. Frankly, I didnt either.....then, later, you chide him that he has an agenda...well, you came into the thread and brought a past post from the thread starter....wouldnt that qualify as having an agenda too?

[thaskalos]

If the author, by general consensus, discloses a complete methodology, then that author has fulfilled their obligation. Wait for version 2 or version 3 for a supplement or revision.

What if the author presents a methodology which can only be properly implemented if the reader buys figures from the author...at a price of $20 a day per track.

Has he fulfilled his obligation to the reader?

[the little guy]

Andy,

You know damn well if someone said to you "not your best day for reading comprehension," you would have come back swinging. Come on, I want you to be honest.


Can we move this to PMs so as not to divert this anymore please?

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey, it's the Relwob and Saratoga Mike tag team...funny how only the tag team of CJ and PA get recognized... :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

We can start by acknowledging my awesome #46 reply.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Hey, it's the Relwob and Saratoga Mike tag team...funny how only the tag team of CJ and PA get recognized... :lol:

There are plenty of tag teams - there's you and CJ, Dahoss and Cardus, four or five of the takeout guys. I like and respect many of these people, so not trying to offend them, just stating a fact.

[Fat Syd]

We can start by acknowledging my awesome #46 reply.

Nice reply. Anyway as a new reader and poster I would hope TLG sticks around. He is a well spoken handicapper on the nations most important circut. Having jerks run him off, would suck for the people looking to enjoy and grow in the sport. Or we can just talk about Zenyatta forever?

[Relwob Owner]

TLG brings up an excellent point to mountainman, but because of who he is, he gets the usual shit thrown his way...allow me to clear the air:

Mountainman states this in his OP:

Now, TLG comes into the discussion with something Mountainman wrote a while ago:

I have bolded some very relevant points. At the top of this thread, Mountainman states in no uncertain terms that as someone who is PAID TO TALK ABOUT HANDICAPPING (his words, and the reader must assume that Mountainman and TLG are BOTH paid to talk about handicapping, everyday, on the air), NOTHING is to be HELD BACK relevant to their immediate topic.

Isn't a horse who was entered at the behest of the racing office to fill a race something that EVERY RACING FAN WOULD WANT TO KNOW? And isn't Mountainman, if he is holding back this knowledge from the fan, going against what he said in the original post? Perhaps there is a conflict of interest here with Mountainman both as an on-air personality and a backstretch or racing office employee. But this is his thread, and perhaps he didn't mean to include the likes of himself and TLG when he wrote "PAID TO TALK ABOUT HANDICAPPING."

How exactly is this apples to oranges?



Yes, you have bolded some relevant points but left out some too...in this thread, he clearly talks about THEORIES and METHODS.....in the other, he is referring to info from horseman about specific horses....that isnt a theory or method....that is a totally different thing, hence the apples and oranges....

[Relwob Owner]

Hey, it's the Relwob and Saratoga Mike tag team...funny how only the tag team of CJ and PA get recognized... :lol:


Well, I guess we are on the map now.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes, you have bolded some relevant points but left out some too...in this thread, he clearly talks about THEORIES and METHODS.....in the other, he is referring to info from horseman about specific horses....that isnt a theory or method....that is a totally different thing, hence the apples and oranges....It's all there in the first sentence:

"In my opinion, there is an ethical imperative for anyone who sells books on handicapping or is paid to talk about handicapping, to hold back nothing (time or space permitting) relevant to their immediate topic."

He clearly makes a distinction between those who sell books and those PAID TO TALK, and lumps them under the same "ethical imperative to hold back nothing."

PAID TO TALK about handicapping. Are not both mountainman and TLG PAID TO TALK ABOUT HANDICAPPING?

[PaceAdvantage]

Well, I guess we are on the map now.Now? :lol:

[Fat Syd]

Yes, you have bolded some relevant points but left out some too...in this thread, he clearly talks about THEORIES and METHODS.....in the other, he is referring to info from horseman about specific horses....that isnt a theory or method....that is a totally different thing, hence the apples and oranges....

Actually, if a trainers suggested to a handicapper that his METHOD for enhancing a horses chance in a coming races was the reason why he/she liked the horses chances it would be exactly what TLG was referring to.

"I trained the horse this way" or " I made a change to what we were doing this way" are all types of methodology that could impact a 'cappers opinion.

[Relwob Owner]

Now? :lol:


I should have put "officially" on the map!

[Saratoga_Mike]

Now? :lol:

And just a few months ago you said you never could figure me out.

[mountainman]

You are the author of this thread and the seeming theme of your original post runs contrary to your previous disclosures. This is not relevent to my job resume, either within this industry, or elsewhere. Perhaps now it is important for you to deflect away from that, which I get, and ask other questions. However, that doesn't change the contradiction.

Not that it matters, but since you seem bent on trying to prove some point that alludes me, I will answer you.....NONE.

Prevalent opinion on this thread seems to hold that I've made my point and refuted yours. I'm sure you see it otherwise, and that's cool. So let's give it a rest. I'm not a fan of long drawn-out debates. They invariably become bitter and serve no purpose. We each stated our case. What more is there?

[PaceAdvantage]

Prevalent opinion on this thread seems to hold that I've made my point and refuted yours. I'm sure you see it otherwise, and that's cool. So let's give it a rest. I'm not a fan of long drawn-out debates. They invariably become bitter and serve no purpose. We each stated our case. What more is there?You obviously missed reply #46.

[Relwob Owner]

Actually, if a trainers suggested to a handicapper that his METHOD for enhancing a horses chance in a coming races was the reason why he/she liked the horses chances it would be exactly what TLG was referring to.

"I trained the horse this way" or " I made a change to what we were doing this way" are all types of methodology that could impact a 'cappers opinion.



That is a fair point......I sort of took the spirit of this one being specifically that if you write a book and dont disclose certain systems, it isnt cool.....his other one seems to be more about inside info from horsemen, but I guess that can be construed as a strategy as well.

I think if you take all of our posts and look at them, we are bound to contradict ourselves at some point.

[PaceAdvantage]

And just a few months ago you said you never could figure me out.There's always a method to my madness. :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

That is a fair point......I sort of took the spirit of this one being specifically that if you write a book and dont disclose certain systems, it isnt coolHow could you when he also specifically wrote "PAID TO TALK"

[mountainman]

You obviously missed reply #46.

My case has been stated. And I'm done. To reiterate would serve no purpose.

[Saratoga_Mike]

There's always a method to my madness. :lol:

And I had you figured out in about a month...we should compare notes some time, perhaps at Saratoga when I do the DWL re-enactment for you!

[Fat Syd]

That is a fair point......I sort of took the spirit of this one being specifically that if you write a book and dont disclose certain systems, it isnt cool.....his other one seems to be more about inside info from horsemen, but I guess that can be construed as a strategy as well.

I think if you take all of our posts and look at them, we are bound to contradict ourselves at some point.

It appears that Mr Serling takes his position seriously. He handicaps the nations most bet on racing. I don't know Mr. Serling but I recognize that it must be dfficult to be wrong 70% of the time and still be great at what you do. I have never read him be disrespectful of others and while his opinion is often horrible it doesnt ever come across as poorly contrieved.

[highnote]

Then don't sell books predicated on what you aren't willing to deliver.

How many software vendors give away the code to their factors -- yet sell the software that makes the factors?

I don't see the problem. If it's a good product and works as stated and the clientele is happy then it seems ok to me.

[Relwob Owner]

How could you when he also specifically wrote "PAID TO TALK"

Because before it, he said "sells books on handicapping"....I don't quite see why it matters if it is books or talking. I still see the fact that in one thread he was talking about systems and the other post was about inside info. I see it as different but can see if you keep taking single lines out it can be viewed differently.

[the little guy]

It appears that Mr Serling takes his position seriously. He handicaps the nations most bet on racing. I don't know Mr. Serling but I recognize that it must be dfficult to be wrong 70% of the time and still be great at what you do. I have never read him be disrespectful of others and while his opinion is often horrible it doesnt ever come across as poorly contrieved.


Please.....call me the Great Andy.




































Do I need a lot of emoticons or does everyone know I was kidding?

[PaceAdvantage]

It appears that Mr Serling takes his position seriously. He handicaps the nations most bet on racing. I don't know Mr. Serling but I recognize that it must be dfficult to be wrong 70% of the time and still be great at what you do. I have never read him be disrespectful of others and while his opinion is often horrible it doesnt ever come across as poorly contrieved.You I had pegged early... :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

And I had you figured out in about a month...we should compare notes some time, perhaps at Saratoga when I do the DWL re-enactment for you!Sure you did...

[PaceAdvantage]

Because before it, he said "sells books on handicapping"....I don't quite see why it matters if it is books or talking. I still see the fact that in one thread he was talking about systems and the other post was about inside info. I see it as different but can see if you keep taking single lines out it can be viewed differently.Look, he clearly includes PAID TO TALK HANDICAPPING as separate and distinct from "sells books on handicapping" or handicapping theory.

Then, when called out on it from a prior post he wrote, he tries to back off...I get it...then the Andy bashers show up and try and change the name of the tune.

Not like it hasn't happened before...

There are no apples to oranges. It's all there in black and white for anyone to read. Clear as day.

This is about as cut and dried as Blame deserving HOTY. And the arguments against are just as absurd...

[Cardus]

If that was the only comment included, I would agree with you. However, the rest of the thread starting post seemed to make it clear that he was referring to systems and stratgies, whereas his post a month ago was more related to general info about a horse given in confidence.

It's only because that was included that the thread took the direction it took, and why I thought it was relevant to include his post from a month (or so) ago.

I realized that most of today's post was about literature and systems and strategies, but "anyone..." was included.

[Cardus]

Look, he clearly includes PAID TO TALK HANDICAPPING as separate and distinct from "sells books on handicapping" or handicapping theory.

Then, when called out on it from a prior post he wrote, he tries to back off...I get it...then the Andy bashers show up and try and change the name of the tune.

Not like it hasn't happened before...

There are no apples to oranges. It's all there in black and white for anyone to read. Clear as day.

This is about as cut and dried as Blame deserving HOTY. And the arguments against are just as absurd...

And not like it won't happen again.

[Fat Syd]

Pegged as? Sorry I do not understand your reference.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Sure you did...

I know my own personality type when I see it!

[Relwob Owner]

It's only because that was included that the thread took the direction it took, and why I thought it was relevant to include his post from a month (or so) ago.

I realized that most of today's post was about literature and systems and strategies, but "anyone..." was included.


Fair point-I could see that

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not here to fight. Only to reiterate that TLG made a very interesting point in bringing up mountainman's old post which clearly contradicts what he was writing in this thread.

Instead of trying to clear up this contradiction, we get the typical "beat down the messenger, especially if said messenger happens to be the little guy."

[PaceAdvantage]

Pegged as? Sorry I do not understand your reference.What reference? I deleted that as it was addressed to the wrong person. Sorry.

[cj]

How did you get the job with no prior experience? I know this is off-topic, but I think most would be interested in the answer.

Mountainman asked what other jobs Andy has had at the racetrack other than TV analyst. Andy responded none, in that he has not had any OTHER type jobs. He obviously worked his way up to where he is now. That is how I read it.

He didn't have any OTHER jobs at the track other than analyst, not that he had no experience. I mean, everyone starts their first job with no experience, right?

[Saratoga_Mike]

I'm not here to fight. Only to reiterate that TLG made a very interesting point in bringing up mountainman's old post which clearly contradicts what he was writing in this thread.

Instead of trying to clear up this contradiction, we get the typical "beat down the messenger, especially if said messenger happens to be the little guy."

Come on, TLG is more than capable of defending himself. He's a bright, articulate guy.

[cj]

There are plenty of tag teams - there's you and CJ, Dahoss and Cardus, four or five of the takeout guys. I like and respect many of these people, so not trying to offend them, just stating a fact.

Many times we have like opinions. You'd be amazed how many times I stay out of threads just to avoid the "tag team" label.

[PaceAdvantage]

Come on, TLG is more than capable of defending himself. He's a bright, articulate guy.Defend against what?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Mountainman asked what other jobs Andy has had at the racetrack other than TV analyst. Andy responded none, in that he has not had any OTHER type jobs. He obviously worked his way up to where he is now. That is how I read it.

He didn't have any OTHER jobs at the track other than analyst, not that he had no experience. I mean, everyone starts their first job with no experience, right?

CJ,

I was not criticizing him at all with the experience question. Often times people have interesting career transition stories. You ever see The Pursuit of Happyness? Serling's a very articulate individual, so I thought he may have pulled something like that.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Many times we have like opinions. You'd be amazed how many times I stay out of threads just to avoid the "tag team" label.

As I said, that was NOT meant as a criticism at all (I hope I said that).

[Saratoga_Mike]

Defend against what?

The "beat down" of the messenger.

[cj]

CJ,

I was not criticizing him at all with the experience question. Often times people have interesting career transition stories. You ever see The Pursuit of Happyness? Serling's a very articulate individual, so I thought he may have pulled something like that.

He didn't say, or even imply, that he was given the job with no experience. Sometimes things written on the internet don't come across as intended, and think that is what happened here. I also think Andy was joking in his reply, but I can see where it might not be taken that way.

[PaceAdvantage]

The "beat down" of the messenger.Wasn't that MY theory?

[Relwob Owner]

I'm not here to fight. Only to reiterate that TLG made a very interesting point in bringing up mountainman's old post which clearly contradicts what he was writing in this thread.

Instead of trying to clear up this contradiction, we get the typical "beat down the messenger, especially if said messenger happens to be the little guy."

I think the debate was just a debate and then the reading comprehension remark appeared and the ball got rolling.....he wasn't "beaten down" for his initial thought about the contradiction, was he? I initially disagreed and now, having others point out specific parts of the thread starting post, can see the other side as well.

[mountainman]

I'll debate the facts all night-and enjoy it. I never run out of responces. But this is getting too personal. The Little Guy did nothing to warrant being attacked. He asked me a valid question; a respectful debate ensued; and we differ on who better established their case. It's time to leave it at that.

[PaceAdvantage]

When the thread suddenly becomes about TLG and his career history, I don't know...maybe beat down is too strong a phrase.

[bigmack]

Do I need a lot of emoticons or does everyone know I was kidding?
While I can dig that you, cj and a few others find emoticons annoying, as someone who has a dry sense of humor, I've found their usage helps those that can't get such humor and alleviate personal brouhaha's like in this thread, for what it's worth.

[Pell Mell]

I kind of think I know where Mtn. was going with this even if it came across differently.

My experience has been this; I have been asked on numerous occasions to consider writing a book. This came about because I had written quite a few little articles on a couple of websites elsewhere on the internet.

I had a publisher from NY encourage me and wanted to help. My response was that I couldn't do it because I felt that if one actually had a method that was a winner, to write about it, and totally disclose the method in it's entirety, would be self defeating in that it would then make said method useless.

So what I think MTN meant was that it would not be ethical, in my case, to write a book about a SPECIFIC method of selection without disclosing everything pertinent to the selection method.

I think this would apply more to writing about a specific SYSTEM rather than a book about the application of general handicapping procedures. For instance; I have a lot of books by the most popular writers and they all go into the application of speed, pace, class, etc. but I haven't found one that actually gives a step by step method that produces a consistent profit. They basically give one the principals of the various approaches.

Incidentally, I have at hand one of the worst books I ever read and from my standpoint it's total bullshit. Brohamer would do better to write secret codes that can't be deciphered.

[Saratoga_Mike]

When the thread suddenly becomes about TLG and his career history, I don't know...maybe beat down is too strong a phrase.

For my part, I asked him a polite question, noting it was off-topic. I didn't mean any harm. If you asked me how I broke into my field, I'd gladly let you know.

[thaskalos]

So do I, but I do understand why some people are pissed after buying his book. My copy was given to me for free, and I was still slightly pissed. But that went away when I started playing around with the methods. (Another thing that is annoying about his book is that he essentially says, "This stuff will ONLY work with my figures." Which thankfully isn't true. Oops, got him on the truth thing too -- sorry Cary!)Cary Fotias is very knowledgeable, and his book is very well written...but by writing it, he commited an injustice against his readers, IMO.

Yes, he imparts some knowledge on how to use his pace ratings to predict improving or declining form...but, by claiming that his figures are essential to the methodology presented in the book, the book is reduced to an advertisement for his $20-a-day, per track, speed and pace figures... something that is not apparent from the initial description of the book - or from the glowing recommendations that accompany it.

If my memory serves me right...he states in the book that he cannot go into too much detail about what goes into the construction of his figures, for fear that the readers will be able to reproduce them for themselves.

There is nothing wrong with praising and advertising your products...but you shouldn't be charging people $29.99 while doing it...

[Relwob Owner]

Cary Fotias is very knowledgeable, and his book is very well written...but by writing it, he commited an injustice against his readers, IMO.

Yes, he imparts some knowledge on how to use his pace ratings to predict improving or declining form...but, by claiming that his figures are essential to the methodology presented in the book, his book is reduced to an advertisement for his $20-a-day, per track, speed and pace figures... something that is not apparent from the initial description of the book - or from the glowing recommendations that accompany it.

If my memory serves me right...he states in the book that he cannot go into too much detail about what goes into the construction of his figures, for fear that the readers will be able to reproduce them for themselves.

There is nothing wrong with praising and advertising your products...but you shouldn't be charging people $29.99 while doing it...

Interesting you mention him committing an injustice to his readers.....I felt the same way when Beyer sold his figs......years later,I am still unsure how to view it overall. I learned how to do them at a really young age and before they became public, it was awesome.

[Overlay]

Interesting you mention him committing an injustice to his readers.....I felt the same way when Beyer sold his figs......years later,I am still unsure how to view it overall. I learned how to do them at a really young age and before they became public, it was awesome.

It would be the same with any method or single factor designed to steer everybody who uses it to the same horse, without looking at the full field, and without taking odds or wagering value into consideration (even though the method/factor by itself might remain as powerful as ever in identifying horses that are likely to win).

[Exotic1]

What if the author presents a methodology which can only be properly implemented if the reader buys figures from the author...at a price of $20 a day per track.

Has he fulfilled his obligation to the reader?

I see your point.

If the advertised methodology could only be applied using information sold separately, Book2, software, charts etc, then the author probably should have disclosed that at the onset. But in this case the topic of the book is "form cycle analysis", which is arbitrary. The same information, speed figures, pace numbers, tops, pairs, regression and other cycles can be interpreted differently by two people using the same figures. Similar to Jerry Brown and Ragozin, they may each have horses going in the opposite directions of a form cycle not necessarily because they are using different numbers. If one is using a good set of numbers, wouldn't pace top and some others be a universal cycle?

However, you may be right nonetheless.

[GameTheory]

I see your point.

If the advertised methodology could only be applied using information sold separately, Book2, software, charts etc, then the author probably should have disclosed that at the onset. But in this case the topic of the book is "form cycle analysis", which is arbitrary. The same information, speed figures, pace numbers, tops, pairs, regression and other cycles can be interpreted differently by two people using the same figures. Similar to Jerry Brown and Ragozin, they may each have horses going in the opposite directions of a form cycle not necessarily because they are using different numbers. If one is using a good set of numbers, wouldn't pace top and some others be a universal cycle?

However, you may be right nonetheless.In Fotias' case, he pretty much explicitly says, "You gotta buy my figures to use these methods." No where on the cover would you be led to believe that it was anything but an "independent" handicapping book. Now, it so happens that you CAN use his methods with other figures (with some effort and conversion, but not necessarily ANY other figures, and in any case maybe no other figures will work as well as using his), but that's kind of beside the point.

[Exotic1]

In Fotias' case, he pretty much explicitly says, "You gotta buy my figures to use these methods." No where on the cover would you be led to believe that it was anything but an "independent" handicapping book. Now, it so happens that you CAN use his methods with other figures (with some effort and conversion, but not necessarily ANY other figures, and in any case maybe no other figures will work as well as using his), but that's kind of beside the point.

Ok, got your point. Thanks.

[KingChas]

The authors, at least the one's I have read do give you the Knowledge to use their full methology,you have to read between the lines.
A lot of authors state their methodlogy combined with a good set of pars,trip notes etc..........also helps.
They don't spell it out they leave a little work for you to do.

PS;
TLG to borrow a phrase from the great Charlie D.,
"see my sig" "see my sig"?
If you want it you can have it,I stole it from Pace........... :D
Also in 2011 new rule, real men can use Smilies................... :eek: ............... :lol:

[Linny]

Apples and oranges. Selecting horses and giving basic handicapping tips for a track is vastly different than selling a method for personal commercial gain. Also one is proprietary (owned or devoloped by the seller) and the other is a confidence not owned or developed by the seller.

This is a difference but not a big one. If a track pays an analyst (like the little guy) to handicap for the public, then he is making his living from it and owes NYRA's customer the best analysis he can give. I believe that we get just that from Andy every day.
I am also paid a salary to handicap and in fact I have to a great extent avoided becoming overly friendly with horsemen because I don't want to be in a the position of "knowing something that I cannot tell" about a horse or a barn. Of course, being on track you do see things and run into people and when that trainer with a 5% first out win rate points out a fast looking son of City Zip and grins like the Cheshire Cat what do you do about it when you look at his debut?

[thaskalos]

This is a difference but not a big one. If a track pays an analyst (like the little guy) to handicap for the public, then he is making his living from it and owes NYRA's customer the best analysis he can give. I believe that we get just that from Andy every day.
I am also paid a salary to handicap and in fact I have to a great extent avoided becoming overly friendly with horsemen because I don't want to be in a the position of "knowing something that I cannot tell" about a horse or a barn. Of course, being on track you do see things and run into people and when that trainer with a 5% first out win rate points out a fast looking son of City Zip and grins like the Cheshire Cat what do you do about it when you look at his debut?Well...what DO you do about it? :)

[Linny]

I point to the pedigree and invoke "nature over nurture" and hope for the best!
Honestly, it is troublesome if I do come across info that I know is confidential. In most cases it is of little note, but in going for coffee on the backstretch I have seen an "alternative farrier" using glue on shoes on a horse usually shod in aluminum or seen the look of disgust on the face of a trainer knowing his horse worked poorly but he can't scratch. In those cases, maybe I try to build a better case for another contender, at a better price.
I just don't want to know if the horse was hustled into the race, but sometimes I hear that stuff too. (The worst is hearing it after I picked the horse. :mad: )
It's hard to walk around with blinkers on and earplugs in and holding my hands over my ears and singing while walking around blindfolded might get me ruled off. :p

[Show Me the Wire]

I point to the pedigree and invoke "nature over nurture" and hope for the best!
Honestly, it is troublesome if I do come across info that I know is confidential. In most cases it is of little note, but in going for coffee on the backstretch I have seen an "alternative farrier" using glue on shoes on a horse usually shod in aluminum or seen the look of disgust on the face of a trainer knowing his horse worked poorly but he can't scratch. In those cases, maybe I try to build a better case for another contender, at a better price.
I just don't want to know if the horse was hustled into the race, but sometimes I hear that stuff too. (The worst is hearing it after I picked the horse. :mad: )
It's hard to walk around with blinkers on and earplugs in and holding my hands over my ears and singing while walking around blindfolded might get me ruled off. :p

What are you doing in the barn? Should you really be there? Should you be in the racing office listening to the office calling barns to hustle horses?

If you see something in a public work or out on the track that is not confidential information and should be disclosed. However, if a trainer tells you in confidence, a physical issue, about a claiming horse that is confidential and not handicapping knowledge.

[mountainman]

I am also paid a salary to handicap and in fact I have to a great extent avoided becoming overly friendly with horsemen because I don't want to be in a the position of "knowing something that I cannot tell" about a horse or a barn.

As an ast racing secretary/analyst, that does create an issue for me, but not one that puts my viewers at a comparative disadvantage. The kind of things I'm aware of but can't reveal on air just aren't things that another talking head would know to begin with. And any analyst so disposed could access much of the same info that I'm compelled by my position to keep confidential. Some tracks, for instance, post the vet's list, and since the track vet is a state employee, I'm sure those that don't divulge the list could be forced to. Yet, with EXTREMELY rare exception (usually in the case of prominent horses), no print or tv handicapper will touch this info. Does that mean they're too lazy to obtain the vet's list, or don't consider it relevant? Of course not. They don't do it because it just isn't done. For one thing, horsemen would go berserk. Consider an outfit that drops a sore one in hopes of claim. Can you imagine their reaction if a drf handicapper informed the world that said horse had twice hit the vet's list for returning lame?? And what if the animal breaks down?? Truthfully, what public handicapper would risk stepping into that maelstrom?

On a corrolary note, I will admit to sometimes exploiting my position to better inform viewers. Let's say some horse has twice been entered in 10k claimers that failed to fill. And finally, with no other option, its connections risk the horse for 5k. While I can't come right out and reveal such behind-the-scenes maneuvering, I have been known to say things like: " We've had some higher claimers that were probably plan A for this horse fail to fill..etc..etc.
So with a foot in both worlds, there is some brinksmanship involved.

[comet52]

We can start by acknowledging my awesome #46 reply.

I have no tag team, I wrestle alone. But I will acknowledge that you got it right.

[garyscpa]

In my opinion, there is an ethical imperative for anyone who sells books on handicapping or is paid to talk about handicapping, to hold back nothing (time or space permitting) relevant to their immediate topic. Tout sevices are one thing, but any author, columnist, or even analyst taking money to dispense handicapping wisdom forfeits the right to "proprietary" theories or methods. I'm not saying that writing one book makes every iota of the author's knowledge part of the public domain, but I do think any book predicated on some methodology should deconstruct that method to the nuts and bolts. I've been frustrated by literature that played coy when it came to stripping their systems bare. And I pity readers attempting to piece together something they've already paid for. Any feedback?

I still don't believe that story about you jogging in the parking lot at Mountaineer. ;)

[mountainman]

I still don't believe that story about you jogging in the parking lot at Mountaineer. ;)

Yeah, I know it's weird given my bulk. But the (futile) quest to shed weight continues, and I was once an athletic guy. Had pro scouts looking at me as a pitcher as far back as pony league, but then suffered a freakish arm injury. And there's a masochistic part of my nature that loves the pain of a hard workout. I'm the guy who goes to the gym-and then eats a box of cheezits. This summer, though, I WILL finally win the battle of the bulge!!!

[Track Phantom]

Those that can't...... teach, tout or write books.

Those that can...... bet.

Argument of convienence.

[delayjf]

There is nothing wrong with praising and advertising your products...but you shouldn't be charging people $29.99 while doing it...

For the most part, I agree with the above statement. But I will say this about Fotias book - imo the pace theories were worth the price of the book and as GT stated, they do work with other figures. The theory of the pace top translates to any set of figures one might use. I've won using pace tops with TSN / Bris pace figures as well as with CJ's (Street Sense in the BC Juvenile comes to mind).

I was too, mostly because I was reading it in the sun in Saudi Arabia and the glue weakened and the book fell apart.

Funny the same thing happened to my book and I read mine in the BOQ at Norfolk Navy base. Must have been the glue, had to use masking tape to keep the binding together.

[Cardus]

Argument of convienence.

Excellent expression.

[Peter Berry]

Some tracks, for instance, post the vet's list, and since the track vet is a state employee, I'm sure those that don't divulge the list could be forced to. Yet, with EXTREMELY rare exception (usually in the case of prominent horses), no print or tv handicapper will touch this info. Does that mean they're too lazy to obtain the vet's list, or don't consider it relevant? Of course not. They don't do it because it just isn't done.

Count me in the minority but I believe all vets' lists should be published.

[Stillriledup]

Count me in the minority but I believe all vets' lists should be published.

This again goes to the idea that the game is being run for the owners and damn the bettors.

I also believe that claims should be announced before the running of the race. If a big dropper has 7 claims entered, he becomes a much better bet than if he has 0 claims. Lots of these claiming trainers know the 'story' behind almost every horse on the grounds, and if 7 of them are in for the claim, i'd feel much more confident backing said horse at the windows.

[Relwob Owner]

This again goes to the idea that the game is being run for the owners and damn the bettors.

I also believe that claims should be announced before the running of the race. If a big dropper has 7 claims entered, he becomes a much better bet than if he has 0 claims. Lots of these claiming trainers know the 'story' behind almost every horse on the grounds, and if 7 of them are in for the claim, i'd feel much more confident backing said horse at the windows.


This would create a potential logistical challenge as the slip would have to be dropped and then the person in charge of the claim slips would have to communicate to the announcer for the patrons at the track and also the info would have to be communicated on line to the off track bettors.

[Dave Schwartz]

This would create a potential logistical challenge as the slip would have to be dropped and then the person in charge of the claim slips would have to communicate to the announcer for the patrons at the track and also the info would have to be communicated on line to the off track bettors.

Why would this be a problem?

We live an a high-tech world. You have a single worksheet that lists all the horses in the race and a field with the number of claims. I'd say that it is, at most, 1 minute of work in return for a huge benefit to the players.

[cj]

[/B]


This would create a potential logistical challenge as the slip would have to be dropped and then the person in charge of the claim slips would have to communicate to the announcer for the patrons at the track and also the info would have to be communicated on line to the off track bettors.

It has been done before. It wasn't a big deal to get it done.

[Relwob Owner]

It has been done before. It wasn't a big deal to get it done.


When and where?

[cj]

If I knew I would have posted it, but I am 100% sure I have been at a track that announced claims before the race went off.

The Big M comes to mind, both harness and thoroughbreds.

[Relwob Owner]

If I knew I would have posted it, but I am 100% sure I have been at a track that announced claims before the race went off.


If you remember, it would be interesting to know. I am curious to see how it was done and what the timeframes were. I have been at the claiming box many times and it can be chaotic. Plus, the track would get tons of s*** if they got a claim wrong. SRU said that the basis for it would be to give the bettors more info but what if the info is conveyed incorrectly? Plus, at best, I would say that all of the info would be collected by 4-5 min to post and that doesnt seem like enough time for bettors to really use it that much. At best, to cancel and switch a bet, perhaps.

[cj]

If you remember, it would be interesting to know. I am curious to see how it was done and what the timeframes were. I have been at the claiming box many times and it can be chaotic. Plus, the track would get tons of s*** if they got a claim wrong. SRU said that the basis for it would be to give the bettors more info but what if the info is conveyed incorrectly? Plus, at best, I would say that all of the info would be collected by 4-5 min to post and that doesnt seem like enough time for bettors to really use it that much. At best, to cancel and switch a bet, perhaps.

It was done right after the cutoff for claims. Lots of info is "given" that might be incorrect, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't still get it because it is usually accurate. They screw up plenty of fractions and final times, but they still give them.

[Relwob Owner]

Why would this be a problem?

We live an a high-tech world. You have a single worksheet that lists all the horses in the race and a field with the number of claims. I'd say that it is, at most, 1 minute of work in return for a huge benefit to the players.


In a perfect world, maybe but claim boxes can be quite chaotic and getting all of that info correct in a 5-10 minute time frame would be dicey IMO. As a bettor, what if the info is incorrect? What if there are several claims for different horses? Does the track announcer have to announce all of the claims in the last 10ish minutes to post(they could get someone else to do it, I suppose)? How is the info conveyed to the off track bettors? Yes, you could probably do it but I have never thought that our great game is a model of efficiency all of the time and it would have to be pretty streamlined to work.

Remember that those processing the claims are managing many thousands of dollars of responsibility and I have personally seen tons of issues jsut getting the claims done. Add onto that the responsibility of getting them confirmed and passed on to be announced and I think your 1 minute estimate is low.

[mountainman]

Count me in the minority but I believe all vets' lists should be published.
Me too. But we both know it's unlikely to happen. The downside for certain factions is just too severe.

[cj]

In a perfect world, maybe but claim boxes can be quite chaotic and getting all of that info correct in a 5-10 minute time frame would be dicey IMO. As a bettor, what if the info is incorrect? What if there are several claims for different horses? Does the track announcer have to announce all of the claims in the last 10ish minutes to post(they could get someone else to do it, I suppose)? How is the info conveyed to the off track bettors? Yes, you could probably do it but I have never thought that our great game is a model of efficiency all of the time and it would have to be pretty streamlined to work.

Remember that those processing the claims are managing many thousands of dollars of responsibility and I have personally seen tons of issues jsut getting the claims done. Add onto that the responsibility of getting them confirmed and passed on to be announced and I think your 1 minute estimate is low.

All I know is it was done, and probably still is. Maybe it is worth checking the harness board. It was originated in that sport I believe.

[mountainman]

If I knew I would have posted it, but I am 100% sure I have been at a track that announced claims before the race went off.

The Big M comes to mind, both harness and thoroughbreds.

No t-bred claim can be disclosed before the race. It's against the rules in virtually every jurisdiction.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

All I know is it was done, and probably still is. Maybe it is worth checking the harness board. It was originated in that sport I believe.

Almost every harness track announces claimed horses before or during the post parade of the claimed horse(s) race.

[cj]

No t-bred track discloses claims before the race. It's against the rules in virtually every jurisdiction.

It only further adds to the perception of "insider trading" that is prevalent in this sport. What is the harm? It is probably "against the rules" because horsemen want it to be.

In any case, it was done at the Big M for sure, so it is possible.

[Relwob Owner]

It was done right after the cutoff for claims. Lots of info is "given" that might be incorrect, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't still get it because it is usually accurate. They screw up plenty of fractions and final times, but they still give them.



When was the cutoff for claims?


Screwing up fractions and final times isnt acceptable and just because they do that, doesnt justify getting even more info that may not be right. I dont see something that is "usually accurate" as something I really want to be exposed to ever....I know it happens but why add something else?

If someone bets a big dropper because there are two claims(basing this on SRU's suggestion of why it is valuable info) in for him that validate his status to the bettor and it is found out the two claims were for another horse, do you think the bettor will be pissed?

[Relwob Owner]

All I know is it was done, and probably still is. Maybe it is worth checking the harness board. It was originated in that sport I believe.


I never said it was or wasnt....just asked you since you had posted that it was...... I posted that it would create a potential logistical challenge, which it will. If some tracks handle that challenge and have handled it, I am impressed. If you find a link or find a place where it definitely still was or still is, I would love to see it and how they do it because I think the claim process in general could be tightened up considerably.

[cj]

When was the cutoff for claims?


Screwing up fractions and final times isnt acceptable and just because they do that, doesnt justify getting even more info that may not be right. I dont see something that is "usually accurate" as something I really want to be exposed to ever....I know it happens but why add something else?

If someone bets a big dropper because there are two claims(basing this on SRU's suggestion of why it is valuable info) in for him that validate his status to the bettor and it is found out the two claims were for another horse, do you think the bettor will be pissed?

There will always be excuses, but it can be done. I worked for the government for 23+ years, I know all about hearing about why things can't be done. It usually involves laziness and/or incompetence.

[Stillriledup]

When was the cutoff for claims?


Screwing up fractions and final times isnt acceptable and just because they do that, doesnt justify getting even more info that may not be right. I dont see something that is "usually accurate" as something I really want to be exposed to ever....I know it happens but why add something else?

If someone bets a big dropper because there are two claims(basing this on SRU's suggestion of why it is valuable info) in for him that validate his status to the bettor and it is found out the two claims were for another horse, do you think the bettor will be pissed?

I know the Meadowlands announced claims for a long time, i dont know if they still do it. Why not call them and ask if they have ever had a problem with announcing the wrong claims, you can also ask the process on how that information is relayed to the public in a timely and accurate manner. Like someone in an earlier post said, if there's a mistake, there's a mistake, what can you do? I think the public would much rather take the shot that the info is correct than not have it at all, at least i know i would.

[Relwob Owner]

I know the Meadowlands announced claims for a long time, i dont know if they still do it. Why not call them and ask if they have ever had a problem with announcing the wrong claims, you can also ask the process on how that information is relayed to the public in a timely and accurate manner. Like someone in an earlier post said, if there's a mistake, there's a mistake, what can you do? I think the public would much rather take the shot that the info is correct than not have it at all, at least i know i would.



Why did you post a suggestion that tracks should do it with knowledge that they already have done it successfully? I would have thought that if you knew the Meadowlands had done it, you may have mentioend that in your initial post, no?

[Relwob Owner]

There will always be excuses, but it can be done. I worked for the government for 23+ years, I know all about hearing about why things can't be done. It usually involves laziness and/or incompetence.

Spot on......that is why I said "potential logistical challenges".....I think it can be done but from what I see now in terms of systems, motivation, etc, I would be skeptical

[mountainman]

It only further adds to the perception of "insider trading" that is prevalent in this sport. What is the harm? It is probably "against the rules" because horsemen want it to be.

In any case, it was done at the Big M for sure, so it is possible.

I've long advocated it--right on the air. In fact, I'm probably the most vocal proponent of claims being announced before the race. So vocal that McMichael just rolls her eyes when I bring it up. Relob Owner knows his stuff and is right about the logistics. But I believe those can be worked out, and the highest imperative is to fully inform the public. How handicappers can best employ this info is up to them-and a fascinating topic for another thread-but witholding claims until after the race amounts to depriving players of potentially useful info. Incidentally, if you heard a t-bred claim announced before the race, it was a mistake on someone's part. The rules simply don't permit it.

[Show Me the Wire]

Depends when the claim becomes valid. Jurisdictions vary on this issue. Some claims are valid when the horse enters the track for the post parade, others when the horse enters the gate and others when the horse leaves the gate.

Also the claim slip must be filled out correctly and time stamped prior the cut-off time.

[garyscpa]

Yeah, I know it's weird given my bulk. But the (futile) quest to shed weight continues, and I was once an athletic guy. Had pro scouts looking at me as a pitcher as far back as pony league, but then suffered a freakish arm injury. And there's a masochistic part of my nature that loves the pain of a hard workout. I'm the guy who goes to the gym-and then eats a box of cheezits. This summer, though, I WILL finally win the battle of the bulge!!!

Keep up the good work! :ThmbUp:

[mountainman]

Keep up the good work! :ThmbUp:
Tx pal. Fat and fit is just no way for a man to go through life.

[TimesTheyRAChangin]

If I recall correctly,at least for the last 40 years,the claims in on horses in an OJC/WEG harness race,were always announced previous to the start in very short & simple terms.
e.g.In the upcoming race,there are 2 claims in on the 3,and 1 each on the 4 & the 6.(No other info,such as trainer(s) who submitted the slip(s),and,no shake/draw has taken place,yet,anyways.)

[Relwob Owner]

If I recall correctly,at least for the last 40 years,the claims in on horses in an OJC/WEG harness race,were always announced previous to the start in very short & simple terms.
e.g.In the upcoming race,there are 2 claims in on the 3,and 1 each on the 4 & the 6.(No other info,such as trainer(s) who submitted the slip(s),and,no shake/draw has taken place,yet,anyways.)


Good info...I have been coming from the thoroughbred side and it is interesting to see that it has been done on the harness side, of which I know very little. Is the process the same in terms of eyeballing the horse before the race, as they do with threads in the paddock before dropping the claim slip? What is the deadline for the claim slips and how long before the race do they announce?

[Linny]

What are you doing in the barn? Should you really be there? Should you be in the racing office listening to the office calling barns to hustle horses?

If you see something in a public work or out on the track that is not confidential information and should be disclosed. However, if a trainer tells you in confidence, a physical issue, about a claiming horse that is confidential and not handicapping knowledge.

My job has me on the backstretch for 6 weeks of the year, at Saratoga. If I go for a cup of coffee, I go to the shack by the gap and am surrounded by horsemen. It's not like I'm sneaking around the barns. I enter barns only when invited.
I also don't spend alot of time in the racing office and when I'm there it's usually not while they are filling/drawing races, but it is a place where horsemen congregate. When I walk in and I hear "Call X, maybe he'll pu Y in there!" shouted across the room, it's hard to miss.

[TimesTheyRAChangin]

Is the process the same in terms of eyeballing the horse before the race, as they do with threads in the paddock before dropping the claim slip? What is the deadline for the claim slips and how long before the race do they announce?

Sorry,but my perspective was strictly from the point of view of a bettor.
I have no idea about the actual process involved in claiming a horse.
As for your last question,to the best of my recollection,the track announcer informed the patrons,over the public address system,shortly following the post parade.

[Relwob Owner]

Sorry,but my perspective was strictly from the point of view of a bettor.
I have no idea about the actual process involved in claiming a horse.
As for your last question,to the best of my recollection,the track announcer informed the patrons,over the public address system,shortly following the post parade.


Got it. Thanks for the info. Proves that it can be done in harness and I still wonder if Tbreds have done it and if it has been successful. Good luck to ya

[Show Me the Wire]

My job has me on the backstretch for 6 weeks of the year, at Saratoga. If I go for a cup of coffee, I go to the shack by the gap and am surrounded by horsemen. It's not like I'm sneaking around the barns. I enter barns only when invited.
I also don't spend alot of time in the racing office and when I'm there it's usually not while they are filling/drawing races, but it is a place where horsemen congregate. When I walk in and I hear "Call X, maybe he'll pu Y in there!" shouted across the room, it's hard to miss.

Good answer. In other words you hear confidential information in the course of your employment duties. That there my good fellow is the substance of the matter.

[5k-claim]

I've long advocated it--right on the air. In fact, I'm probably the most vocal proponent of claims being announced before the race. ...

It would probably require changing when a claim is actually official (as in when the gates open and an official race has started) to some earlier time in the paddock (but still before the claims are announced to the public).

I assume you mean announcing the claims at some point early in the paddock, so that bettors have a chance to act on the information?

If claims are announced over the PA while still in the paddock, it could mean two different sets of instructions for the jockey. Instructions in case there hasn't been a claim announced, and instructions in the event we have heard over the PA that someone else owns the horse now, and this is our last shot with the horse.

If you announce after the paddock, during the post parade and warm-up, then it would be harder to signal the jockey that the horse isn't ours anymore, but less time for bettors to change their bets.

If I am on the claiming end, I would rather the connections not know before the race that I own their horse now. I want them to just run whatever race they were planning on running, and then let me go home with my new horse.

[Relwob Owner]

It would probably require changing when a claim is actually official (as in when the gates open and an official race has started) to some earlier time in the paddock (but still before the claims are announced to the public).

I assume you mean announcing the claims at some point early in the paddock, so that bettors have a chance to act on the information?

If claims are announced over the PA while still in the paddock, it could mean two different sets of instructions for the jockey. Instructions in case there hasn't been a claim announced, and instructions in the event we have heard over the PA that someone else owns the horse now, and this is our last shot with the horse.

If you announce after the paddock, during the post parade and warm-up, then it would be harder to signal the jockey that the horse isn't ours anymore, but less time for bettors to change their bets.

If I am on the claiming end, I would rather the connections not know before the race that I own their horse now. I want them to just run whatever race they were planning on running, and then let me go home with my new horse.



Very good points......I have tried to point out some logistical concerns with it and you have done a great job of pointing out some concerns from the owners side of it.

[5k-claim]

Very good points......I have tried to point out some logistical concerns with it and you have done a great job of pointing out some concerns from the owners side of it.

Yeah, Relwob- I just think it is actually better in the long run (even for bettors) that claims officially change hands with the start of an official race, and that we are not all for certain which horses have changed hands, and to what new outfits, before that time. (Conspiracies aside.)

If the issue is giving the public useful information, then there are things better than knowing before a race that someone has dropped a claim on an even-money favorite... that ends up finishing fourth. Here in Kentucky, fans should try to shake down the state vets for interviews since the vets check the legs of all entrants for heat, swelling, flexibility, etc... and watch them jog hours before the races. I can't imagine that there isn't a little bit of useful information in there between "passed with flying colors" and "technically eligible". It all goes into a little computer, which should be pretty easy for uploading the data pretty quick. Or what about the vets that go around administering the lasix? They certainly have picked up some information along the way.

Or maybe bettors file all of that under "confidential", and don't worry about it? I don't know.

Like most everything else in life, there are multiple angles to approach this from.

[mountainman]

Yeah, Relwob- I just think it is actually better in the long run (even for bettors) that claims officially change hands with the start of an official race, and that we are not all for certain which horses have changed hands, and to what new outfits, before that time. (Conspiracies aside.)

If the issue is giving the public useful information, then there are things better than knowing before a race that someone has dropped a claim on an even-money favorite... that ends up finishing fourth. Here in Kentucky, fans should try to shake down the state vets for interviews since the vets check the legs of all entrants for heat, swelling, flexibility, etc... and watch them jog hours before the races. I can't imagine that there isn't a little bit of useful information in there between "passed with flying colors" and "technically eligible". It all goes into a little computer, which should be pretty easy for uploading the data pretty quick. Or what about the vets that go around administering the lasix? They certainly have picked up some information along the way.

Or maybe bettors file all of that under "confidential", and don't worry about it? I don't know.

Like most everything else in life, there are multiple angles to approach this from.

State-appointed vets would open themselves to tons of potential flack by disclosing their notes on horses permitted to run. Most horses (cheap and classy alike) have physical issues, and many have hit the vet's list. No matter how conscientious the vet, the game must go on, thus there are unsound horses that get rubber stamped and cycled back into the entries. Inevitably, a small percentage of these animals WILL break down. And that's not just at small tracks-but major venues as well. Worse yet, riders get hurt. No vet would risk looking pre-aware of the potential for tragedy in such instances.

Private vets are a separate matter, but would likewise refuse to dish info. No way would trainers employ a vet who betrayed their confidence. And there are other reasons that vets and trainers share a vow of omerta. Contrary to common perception, not all drugging is performed by trainers hiding syringes under their coats. Some vets will cross the line.

[5k-claim]

State-appointed vets would open themselves to tons of potential flack by disclosing their notes on horses permitted to run...

Yeah. I know.

It would take a policy/rule change, under pressure, to make the data available. But as you pointed out yourself, it would take a rule change to get claims enacted and announced early, as well.

Personally, I don't see either one changing. I just figured that as long as you are going to dream for unlikely rule changes, you could dream big.

BTW- I always like running at MNR, and think you guys do a great job on the broadcast...

[mountainman]

Yeah. I know.

It would take a policy/rule change, under pressure, to make the data available. But as you pointed out yourself, it would take a rule change to get claims enacted and announced early, as well.

Personally, I don't see either one changing. I just figured that as long as you are going to dream for unlikely rule changes, you could dream big.

BTW- I always like running at MNR, and think you guys do a great job on the broadcast...

tx man. tx , too, for running at mnr-whoever ur. lol.

[DeanT]

I'd like to see Mark run MNR for six months. The horseplayer-centric changes would be interesting to see :)

[5k-claim]

tx man. tx , too, for running at mnr-whoever ur. lol.

Just a small-time guy from Lexington who likes running at MNR... there are lots of us. :)

BTW- If you ever get to take over, can you please let my owners run in their own colors? They spend time designing those things and pay good money for them. Thanks, man.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I'd like to see Mark run MNR for six months. The horseplayer-centric changes would be interesting to see :)

Free buffet for all bettors

http://www2.citypaper.com/sb/123961/BUFFET_cm.jpg

A bettor-friendly dunk tank so they can dunk jockeys after a bad ride, trainers after a poor performance by one of their horses or analysts after their selections finished up the track

http://www.histriker.com/images/standardweb.jpg

Free ice cream!

http://www.smedbergfarm.com/images/ice_cream_stand.gif

[mountainman]

Free buffet for all bettors

http://www2.citypaper.com/sb/123961/BUFFET_cm.jpg

A bettor-friendly dunk tank so they can dunk jockeys after a bad ride, trainers after a poor performance by one of their horses or analysts after their selections finished up the track

http://www.histriker.com/images/standardweb.jpg

Free ice cream!

http://www.smedbergfarm.com/images/ice_cream_stand.gif

Is that Nancy in the dunk-tank?

[mountainman]

I'd like to see Mark run MNR for six months. The horseplayer-centric changes would be interesting to see :)

Got one word for ya pal: MULLIGAN!! If we don't like the result, we declare it 'no contest,' load 'em up and run 'em again. And KEEP doing it until those contrary critters get it right.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Is that Nancy in the dunk-tank?

Not sure but I'm sure she'd be the fans choice when they call for an analyst to enter the tank.

[DeanT]

That's funny.

The cow in that picture certainly put the cue in the rack some time ago.

[mountainman]

Not sure but I'm sure she'd be the fans choice when they call for an analyst to enter the tank.

Only because they've never seen me in a speedo.

[Stillriledup]

State-appointed vets would open themselves to tons of potential flack by disclosing their notes on horses permitted to run. Most horses (cheap and classy alike) have physical issues, and many have hit the vet's list. No matter how conscientious the vet, the game must go on, thus there are unsound horses that get rubber stamped and cycled back into the entries. Inevitably, a small percentage of these animals WILL break down. And that's not just at small tracks-but major venues as well. Worse yet, riders get hurt. No vet would risk looking pre-aware of the potential for tragedy in such instances.

Private vets are a separate matter, but would likewise refuse to dish info. No way would trainers employ a vet who betrayed their confidence. And there are other reasons that vets and trainers share a vow of omerta. Contrary to common perception, not all drugging is performed by trainers hiding syringes under their coats. Some vets will cross the line.

Notes somewhat similar to this were available for Belmont Stakes bettors to peruse and some of those notes came in handy, smart bettors were able to toss out horses like Saamrat had a low blood count, Gen A Rod had/has arthritis and Ride on Curlin had a bunch of things wrong with him too.

I read thru this entire thread again and really enjoyed the back and forth, thought it was worth a bump because of the vet reports that were made available for the Belmont.

Tracks that made all these reports available for every race would see an increase in handle as there wouldnt be "insiders" pounding cash onto horses they knew had specific treatments that the public doesn't know about.

Unfortunately, this isn't going to happen anytime soon as the horsemen essentially run the game.

[EMD4ME]

Notes somewhat similar to this were available for Belmont Stakes bettors to peruse and some of those notes came in handy, smart bettors were able to toss out horses like Saamrat had a low blood count, Gen A Rod had/has arthritis and Ride on Curlin had a bunch of things wrong with him too.

I read thru this entire thread again and really enjoyed the back and forth, thought it was worth a bump because of the vet reports that were made available for the Belmont.

Tracks that made all these reports available for every race would see an increase in handle as there wouldnt be "insiders" pounding cash onto horses they knew had specific treatments that the public doesn't know about.

Unfortunately, this isn't going to happen anytime soon as the horsemen essentially run the game.

I like this bump. Reminded me of a lot..... Good idea SRU. You are correct this game is not for the player, it is for horsepeople. That is why I play fewer and fewer races as I get older. There are too many races where I know that I don't know many variables (why a horse is dropping off a good race, this one looks to be filling out a field-why is he in here?, why is this trainer winning with irrational horses etc).

I take trip notes on all horses and all races at NYRA and EMD. I study trainers, compare race charts, talk to horsepeople at NYRA and many times, there is just too much that we don't know to bet accordingly.

It's a shame. Not saying that we should know every single detail of a horse's medical condition as it would kill the claiming game but additional info should be supplied.

[Stillriledup]

I like this bump. Reminded me of a lot..... Good idea SRU. You are correct this game is not for the player, it is for horsepeople. That is why I play fewer and fewer races as I get older. There are too many races where I know that I don't know many variables (why a horse is dropping off a good race, this one looks to be filling out a field-why is he in here?, why is this trainer winning with irrational horses etc).

I take trip notes on all horses and all races at NYRA and EMD. I study trainers, compare race charts, talk to horsepeople at NYRA and many times, there is just too much that we don't know to bet accordingly.

It's a shame. Not saying that we should know every single detail of a horse's medical condition as it would kill the claiming game but additional info should be supplied.

But it shouldn't kill the claiming game because if you put your horse in the proper class, all should be well. If your horse is worth 20k, run him for 20k.

Horses who are properly priced would be good for the claiming game, people would be more sure that if they're shelling out 20k, they're getting a horse worth 20k.

Would give more owners confidence to claim.