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Profiler8
01-08-2011, 04:23 PM
Hi everyone,

I am very interested in some Greyhound handicapping books.
Does anybody sell some books for Greyhound racing ?

Many books are really hard to find, beause they are out of print.

Thanks...

Greetings
Tim

Drifter1
01-08-2011, 05:04 PM
There usually are a bunch of greyhound books up for auction on Ebay...just searc under "Handicapping." Good luck.

RaceBookJoe
01-08-2011, 08:07 PM
Dick Herter wrote a bunch of greyhound books and articles, guessing somewhere around 25 years back maybe more. You might want to see if you can find some of his stuff....cant help you with anything current though. rbj

Paul Revere
01-09-2011, 01:40 AM
Hey Tim

I am a greyhound handicapper too. I have tried looking for good handicapping books, but haven't really come up with anything. I own The Gambling Times Guide to Greyhound Racing by William Mcbride (it gets 5 stars on amazon from 5 reviews) and it is terrible.

I honestly think that you are better off the sticking to the horse stuff and trying to relate it back to greys.

Profiler8
01-09-2011, 09:11 AM
Hi,

thanks for all the comments. :-)

I have the Mcbride book and a book from Prof. Jones, but I got not much out of these. The other books are most out of print.

Okay, for horse racing most of the books are not good as well, but there are at least five or ten good books out and there is a lot of information on the internet.

I am a horseplayer at the moment, but when I saw the big payouts on Greyhound racing, I thought you can get some good value bets.

Greetings
Tim

garyscpa
01-09-2011, 12:55 PM
Try a search on Better World Books. Just bought 14 thoroughbred handicapping hard-to-find titles from there.

http://www.betterworldbooks.com/?utm_source=google&utm_campaign=branded&utm_medium=betterworld&utm_term=BetterWorldBooks&utm_content=homepage

Native Texan III
01-09-2011, 03:00 PM
Try ebay.uk also. They have about 100 greyhound books at present.

http://books.shop.ebay.co.uk/Books-Comics-Magazines-/267/i.html?_trkparms=65%253A12%257C66%253A2%257C39%253 A1%257C72%253A3443&rt=nc&_nkw=greyhounds&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1513&_pgn=1

Laredo
01-10-2011, 12:09 PM
I have The Jack Gillen Horse and Greyhound Seminar DVD if you are
interested.

quetzalchess
02-24-2011, 12:58 AM
Hello Laredo, I have read some of gillens work and I would like to have his dvd seminars, please contact me, quetzalcoatlchess@hotmail.com (a@hotmail.com)

Regards

Helles
02-24-2011, 03:26 AM
I can wholeheartedly recommend "Racing Greyhounds Magazine". I learned more from this publication than from any other source hands down.

You can still get back copies from Gordon Waite at greyhounds.com.

dartman51
02-28-2011, 12:26 PM
It's been years since I played the dogs, but when I did, I used a product from D.D. Brown. It actually worked quiet well as I recall. I haven't seen that name in years.

mistergee
02-28-2011, 04:50 PM
at least in S fla. you would have to try the greyhounds sooner than later as I hear they are all trying to get the dog racing removed and just have the slots

Profiler8
07-30-2012, 03:34 PM
Hi,

thanks for the replies. :-)
It was a long time ago, when I created this thread. I got some Racing Greyhound magazines. They are really good and I go a lot out of it. Also the Pender Noriega books and his software are very good.
Does anybody has expierences with the WOFS Method ? The website looks really good, but the course is really expensive.

If anybody has still some books, DVDs or software about Greyhound racing, I am still very interested.

Thanks...

Greetings
Tim

nalley0710
08-04-2012, 04:13 AM
Ive always bet sports and thoroughbreds but bought quite a few greyhound books when they were in print. Several of them might be hard to find. I have a small collection of 40 or 50 of them but I probably have the better ones. Ill dig them out of storage tomorrow and private message you a list.

nalley0710
08-04-2012, 04:25 AM
As a side note, I visited a buddy of mine in orlando. His uncle used to train and race greyhounds and he could tell the body language of greyhounds as far as who was ready to run. We made a pretty decent profit as I was gambling for most of my income and had a decent bankroll. He looked at their eyes and could tell which ones were really interested in running among other things. We probably hit 40% on exactas which was pretty impressive. As no one has written on the subject that i know of it is probably a profitable pursuit. I definately know it can be done as i saw it first hand.

Profiler8
08-04-2012, 01:39 PM
Hi Nalley0710,

that would be great.

Yes, there is not much information about body language in dog racing. When you are not at the track, it would be very difficult as to spot good signs.

I am looking forward to hear from you.

Thanks...

Greetings
Tim

Helles
08-04-2012, 01:40 PM
Hi,

thanks for the replies. :-)
It was a long time ago, when I created this thread. I got some Racing Greyhound magazines. They are really good and I go a lot out of it. Also the Pender Noriega books and his software are very good.
Does anybody has expierences with the WOFS Method ? The website looks really good, but the course is really expensive.

If anybody has still some books, DVDs or software about Greyhound racing, I am still very interested.

Thanks...

Greetings
Tim

The WOF method is "Who's Out First" It's all about speed/time.

Wagergirl
08-04-2012, 02:13 PM
I have to say, I work for an ADW that takes dog wagers, and I find it frustrating that there really aren't any websites that help the novice dog bettor. Good for you for getting out there and hunting the information down. You would think in the information age there would be more online.

hracingplyr
08-04-2012, 03:23 PM
he has a video method out for the dogs the course 1200 i have it if anyone wants to buy it. My brother gave it to me before he passed away

Profiler8
08-04-2012, 03:33 PM
Yes, there is not much out there on Greyhound racing on the internet.
When, I was new for playing the dogs, I had bought a book on amazon.

Can you give me some more information about the video method ?

Thanks...

RaceBookJoe
08-04-2012, 08:00 PM
Dick Herter wrote a bunch of dog racing articles and a few booklets/methods.

Uncle Salty
08-05-2012, 02:02 AM
If you're still looking you can find some greyhound material at the The Gambler's Book Club (http://www.gamblersbookclub.com/Category/129-Horse___dog_racing) in their racing section.

The WOFS method has been pretty much exposed as a scam...there were a whole lot of discussions about it over at the HAWG forums a couple of years ago. It stands for "Who's Out First and Second" and it basically looks for which two dogs are the best breakers, so the system makes you pay $10K to learn what is plainly obvious after watching a handful of greyhound races.

I've read McBride's How to Beat the Dog Races and the Professor Jones' Winner's Guide to Greyhound Racing] as well. I've heard a few guys on this forum knock McBride's book, but I agree with his belief that you need to find out which factors are important at each track/grade. The Professor's book was not very good, but I found the part about effective grade to be useful, especially when taken together with current form.

Profiler8
11-04-2012, 03:02 PM
I have seen, someone offers the Jack Gillen book for Greyhound handicapping for a huge price. Has anyone read the book ?

Thanks...

Greetings
Tim

hracingplyr
11-05-2012, 10:17 AM
I have the course which i will sell being that i know it by heart.

Bob

Profiler8
11-05-2012, 01:49 PM
Post a PM.

atlasaxis
11-05-2012, 03:39 PM
Tim,

Rick Needham uses QuickDog software. Here's the info.

Tom

http://www.innernet.net/rneedham/

bernash
11-10-2012, 06:09 PM
am looking for a book titled 'HOW TO PLAY MORE HORSES FOR LESS MONY' by the legendary Prof.Gordon Jones.....any help will be greater apreciated,

nash

traynor
11-10-2012, 08:21 PM
Best (and possibly the only really useful) book on greyhound racing is The Dog Racing Investment System by Robert Homberger. Most of the people I have encountered who were serious bettors used that method (or their own improved versions of that method).

It is fairly simple to code into a graphing calculator like the TI-84 or the various upgrades to that calculator. If it is coded correctly, it takes only a couple of minutes per race, because the top contenders are usually obvious. It is only necessary to enter the data for three or possibly four entries in a race, and that data entry is minimal. Well worth the effort.

quetzalchess
07-21-2013, 05:03 AM
Hello my friend I am a greyhound racing enthusiast, would like to trade greyhound racing material

Regards

quetzalchess
07-21-2013, 05:20 AM
Best (and possibly the only really useful) book on greyhound racing is The Dog Racing Investment System by Robert Homberger. Most of the people I have encountered who were serious bettors used that method (or their own improved versions of that method).

It is fairly simple to code into a graphing calculator like the TI-84 or the various upgrades to that calculator. If it is coded correctly, it takes only a couple of minutes per race, because the top contenders are usually obvious. It is only necessary to enter the data for three or possibly four entries in a race, and that data entry is minimal. Well worth the effort.

Hello my friend, I am a greyhound racing enthusiast, I am looking to Exchange information and methods for greyhound racing!!

Regards

traynor
07-21-2013, 10:06 AM
Hello my friend, I am a greyhound racing enthusiast, I am looking to Exchange information and methods for greyhound racing!!

Regards

Homberger's DRIS is the best place to start. Almost everything else written on greyhound race wagering is written by people who need the income from selling books and systems because they can't win using their own methods. Much like thoroughbred racing and harness racing, lots of stuff written, but most of it is worthless from the standpoint of using the "information" in it for wagering.

traynor
07-21-2013, 10:32 AM
Hello my friend, I am a greyhound racing enthusiast, I am looking to Exchange information and methods for greyhound racing!!

Regards
Consider two things: The grade of the race, and the finish in that race. Use the same scale of values for both factors. AA = 6, A = 5, B= 4, C = 3, D = 2, M or E = 1. Ignore schooling races. Assign the values to each race shown, once for the grade of the race, and again (the same value) if the finish was in the lead or within two lengths of the leader. For example, a finish 1.5 lengths back in an A grade race would be valued at 5 for the grade, another 5 for the finish--10 for that race. The winner of that race would get the same rating--10.

All entries should have the same number of races shown, and it is usually better to sticke to the higher grade races (B or better).

That one simple step will put you ahead of 95% or more of the other bettors--including the so-called "experts."

Buena suerte!

quetzalchess
07-22-2013, 04:27 AM
Thank you very much for your valuble information my friend!!

I tried to get in touch with you via private message but seems like you have your stirage full!!

Regards

Consider two things: The grade of the race, and the finish in that race. Use the same scale of values for both factors. AA = 6, A = 5, B= 4, C = 3, D = 2, M or E = 1. Ignore schooling races. Assign the values to each race shown, once for the grade of the race, and again (the same value) if the finish was in the lead or within two lengths of the leader. For example, a finish 1.5 lengths back in an A grade race would be valued at 5 for the grade, another 5 for the finish--10 for that race. The winner of that race would get the same rating--10.

All entries should have the same number of races shown, and it is usually better to sticke to the higher grade races (B or better).

That one simple step will put you ahead of 95% or more of the other bettors--including the so-called "experts."

Buena suerte!

traynor
07-22-2013, 04:11 PM
Thank you very much for your valuble information my friend!!

I tried to get in touch with you via private message but seems like you have your stirage full!!

Regards

Thanks for telling me! I cleaned it out.

Greybase
07-22-2013, 07:58 PM
Robert Homberger's book was written in what, 1977 ?? An impressive piece of work for the time, considering he used paper & pencil and probably a hand calculator. I'd love to get my hands on a copy, it's very hard to find... if you don't mind I sent a PM.

Greyhound racing also was much different 35 years ago, just for starters "Live Lure" training was common; the dogs were really keen on chasing that bunny. Kennels routinely "shook" dogs as well... Track grading systems were strict, dogs either competed or got ruled off - not allowed to hang around forever as is the practice today, just to appease the PETA folks.

Breeding was quite different, American greyhounds were long distance bred. As a result Marathon races were conducted at all tracks. Racing hounds in the 70's and 80's were tough - today it's phoney front runners as a result of Euro breeding influence. Half the dogs today, break and bid for the front and promptly quit trying after 100 yards... Put that together with today's training methods you have an environment in dog racing that is almost in total control of the trainers, most of whom are hard-core gamblers.

Back to the subject, very few legit greyhound handicapping books, why? Mostly because the industry decided 30 years ago NOT to have a culture of serious handicapping and wagering... Dog track owners decided, instead, to promote an "entertainment attraction", no DRF, no Equibase, no books and no tournaments etc etc.... your best resource is the Racing Greyhounds magazines of the 1990s. Collect 'em on Ebay or you can order CD reprints from greyhounds.com :cool:

agww
11-12-2013, 01:31 AM
CAN i ALSO GET THAT LIST OF GREYHOUND BOOKS

ADAM
agww000@gmail.com

traynor
11-12-2013, 12:28 PM
Robert Homberger's book was written in what, 1977 ?? An impressive piece of work for the time, considering he used paper & pencil and probably a hand calculator. I'd love to get my hands on a copy, it's very hard to find... if you don't mind I sent a PM.

Greyhound racing also was much different 35 years ago, just for starters "Live Lure" training was common; the dogs were really keen on chasing that bunny. Kennels routinely "shook" dogs as well... Track grading systems were strict, dogs either competed or got ruled off - not allowed to hang around forever as is the practice today, just to appease the PETA folks.

Breeding was quite different, American greyhounds were long distance bred. As a result Marathon races were conducted at all tracks. Racing hounds in the 70's and 80's were tough - today it's phoney front runners as a result of Euro breeding influence. Half the dogs today, break and bid for the front and promptly quit trying after 100 yards... Put that together with today's training methods you have an environment in dog racing that is almost in total control of the trainers, most of whom are hard-core gamblers.

Back to the subject, very few legit greyhound handicapping books, why? Mostly because the industry decided 30 years ago NOT to have a culture of serious handicapping and wagering... Dog track owners decided, instead, to promote an "entertainment attraction", no DRF, no Equibase, no books and no tournaments etc etc.... your best resource is the Racing Greyhounds magazines of the 1990s. Collect 'em on Ebay or you can order CD reprints from greyhounds.com :cool:

That is why the (few) tracks that implemented a time at the first turn very quickly abandoned it--it gave bettors too much of an edge. It also gave (and in some cases continues to give) a considerable advantage to those willing to exert the time and effort to gather the data and use it.

Saratoga_Mike
11-12-2013, 04:40 PM
Is there a dog track in the United States with any single pool that's consistently over $2,000? I know years ago Derby Lane had a decent handle.

traynor
11-12-2013, 05:25 PM
Is there a dog track in the United States with any single pool that's consistently over $2,000? I know years ago Derby Lane had a decent handle.

I think pool size is highly overrated, especially by those unable to accurately predict the outcome. Not much different than betting small tracks in Canada, and more than a few smaller tracks in the US--the trick is to pick more winners at better prices than the other guy(s).

There are people betting on greyhounds earning incomes that most horse bettors would (do anything) to have. To me, absurdity is dumping $2000 into an exactas pool in SoCal that returns $5000--when and if one wins, and one has a cold exacta. The same return can be earned at Southland, St Pete, or Mardi Gras with investments of a few hundred.

Horse bettors tend to sneer at exacta pools of $1000-2000 as "beneath their dignity to consider." If one can routinely hold virtually every winning ticket with an investment of $50-80, it don't get much better than that in this world. Horse racing has its "whales." In greyhound racing they are called "pool cleaners."

Saratoga_Mike
11-12-2013, 07:34 PM
I think pool size is highly overrated, especially by those unable to accurately predict the outcome. Not much different than betting small tracks in Canada, and more than a few smaller tracks in the US--the trick is to pick more winners at better prices than the other guy(s).



I'm not disputing anything you've said, but what is the avg pool size for exotics at the dog tracks you play?

traynor
11-12-2013, 07:55 PM
I'm not disputing anything you've said, but what is the avg pool size for exotics at the dog tracks you play?

Gordon Waite would be the best source for that information. I have not bet on a greyhound race since I left Arizona (right after they made betting online a heinous crime for AZ residents).

1st time lasix
11-13-2013, 12:24 PM
any book on handicapping mutts will be a "short story" Get to to the 1st turn and watch the collision. :lol:

wiffleball whizz
11-13-2013, 12:48 PM
I'm not disputing anything you've said, but what is the avg pool size for exotics at the dog tracks you play?


Palm beach matinee has the highest pools of dog tracks.....when I worked at Mohegan sun the poker room would come to a standstill when jimmy pumped $700 into tris and supers.....he has a sachem card....only 1 of 3 people I've ever seen with the card

I think derby lane isn't bad during evening

mabred
11-13-2013, 06:43 PM
jimmy the old song writer??

what is a sachem card??

he does bet a lot!!

ma bred

Pensacola Pete
11-15-2013, 01:35 AM
Is there a dog track in the United States with any single pool that's consistently over $2,000? I know years ago Derby Lane had a decent handle.

No. The closest would be Palm Beach and about $1,200 in the win pool.

Pensacola Pete
11-15-2013, 04:52 PM
Though if you mean any pools and not WPS pools, a lot of tracks have pools over $2,000 in the quinella, trifecta, and superfecta. Palm, Derby, Orange, Wheeling, Southland, and Naples and Mardis Gras when they're open all have tri and super pools over $2,000 most of the time. The other tracks once in a while.

wiffleball whizz
11-15-2013, 08:26 PM
jimmy the old song writer??

what is a sachem card??

he does bet a lot!!

ma bred


Yeeeeeeeeepppppppp!!!!!

A character indeed......fired more money through the windows live on dogs then anybody in country......u had to see the snakes that followed him they would sink the titanic :lol:

I once heard him referred to as a song writer

Would sit down in the 2/5 game with a $5,000 chip which didnt play but he liked to showboat it

Sachem card is 3x powerful as a 7 star at harrahs...:.prob on the same level as titanium at borgata

mabred
11-16-2013, 09:52 AM
thanks for the reply!! wiz
he plays at twin river casino sometimes!!! dogs @ palm beach

a character for sure!!! money burns a hole in his pocket!!

later
mabred

NYMoment
11-17-2013, 02:19 AM
I quit my job and bet for a living on greyhounds for almost 4 years back in the early 80's so I would like to share my views which are quite a bit different than the views in this thread so far.

Jack Fink books and articles definitely represent the fundamental handicapping theories in the sport (a sort of Tom Anslie of greyhounds). Post position, break, early speed, late speed and class (grade) are the basic fundamentals of greyhound handicapping. Always has been and always will be, and he covers it with authority. He was also known for his spot play systems that were eminently sound and logical. Late speed dogs on the upgrade was one of my favorites. His advice to "follow" a couple of dozen dogs for the entire meet who had 50% win-place-show records was another. Great stuff.

IMHO, "Greyhound Handicapping" by Richard Weiss is the gold standard for dog racing and in fact the greatest thoroughbred, quarterhorse, harness and even sports handicapping tome ever written. Somewhat akin to trip handicapping (he called it visual handicapping) it goes one step further and is basically a scouting manual for good betting value. You see, the charting system for dogs is quite simply the worst system in the betting world. It misses the most important elements of a dog race and the subsequent final running time is the most worthless of all final times in the handicapping world. ALL dog racing professionals I have ever met or heard about used techniques described by Weiss or something very similar. The "corner call" was the most important tool he advocated and it remains the most lucrative tool in existence in dog racing. Something the Racing Greyhounds crowd and computer players can't compete with. If you are going to do dogs, Weiss is the way to go.

hracingplyr
11-17-2013, 11:14 AM
Can the book still be purchased?

Pensacola Pete
11-17-2013, 06:33 PM
You can get Weiss's book from Gambler's Book Club in Las Vegas. It's $30 plus $3 or $4 shipping and handling.

The split time ("corner call") is listed in some track programs now.

JimG
11-17-2013, 08:21 PM
NYMoment,

Welcome to the board. I enjoyed your post. Like you, I also played full time in the early 80's, but only for about a year and one-half, while finding a good job after graduating college.

I agree with everything you said about both Fink and Weiss. I gave a friend the Fink stuff when I stopped playing but have held onto the Weiss book. It absolutely is the best.

I miss greyhound racing, and lament that it is a dying game. Some kennels brought it on themselves with the treatment of the dogs. However, lotto has crippled the sport.

To many unfamiliar with the intricacies of handicapping greyhounds, it seems like folly. However, some feel that way about handicapping horse racing as well. I think horse racing lends itself more to number crunchers wherein I feel greyhound handicapping is more artful in nature.

If you were at Derby Lane in the early 80's, our paths probably crossed.

Jim

Pensacola Pete
11-18-2013, 12:50 AM
The casinos have crippled greyhound racing. People view it as a lottery, and they can press a slot machine button 15 times a minute .... instead of waiting 12 minutes for another race. Casinos have done the same thing to horse racing, but a lot of people think there's more of a skill factor there than in greyhounds.

hracingplyr
11-18-2013, 08:41 AM
What is the split time or corner call if I may ask?

1st time lasix
11-18-2013, 12:05 PM
the four seconds it takes for your money to be blown away by the pending accident on the first turn........

traynor
11-18-2013, 07:45 PM
the four seconds it takes for your money to be blown away by the pending accident on the first turn........

Actually, at most tracks (550 yards/5/16) it was a hair over 7. The thickness of the hair made "smart" dogs almost unbeatable, and that information was only available to a handful of professionals who used it to make "substantial profits."

A "smart dog" is one that takes a straight line to the rail at the turn, rather than running pack-style alongside the others.

I used a (high-tech for the time) motorized Konica that took photos in split-second intervals with time stamps, focused on the start of the turn. Finding a greyhound that consistently reached the corner in 7.10 when no other one close could do it in less than 7.2 was like free money. A number of UK and Australian groups are still doing essentially the same thing.

A couple of tracks installed turn timers. They stopped publishing the information when too many bettors realized how important a stat it was, and the winners were all seriously overbet.

traynor
11-18-2013, 07:48 PM
You can get Weiss's book from Gambler's Book Club in Las Vegas. It's $30 plus $3 or $4 shipping and handling.

The split time ("corner call") is listed in some track programs now.

Could you be more specific about which tracks currently offer split time?

wiffleball whizz
11-18-2013, 08:16 PM
Dog racing trivia.....

What's worse Phoenix dogs or Tucson bow wows?

Pools are a comedy show

traynor
11-19-2013, 12:25 AM
Dog racing trivia.....

What's worse Phoenix dogs or Tucson bow wows?

Pools are a comedy show

Does Phoenix still have greyhound racing? I thought they shut it down.

wiffleball whizz
11-19-2013, 12:37 AM
Does Phoenix still have greyhound racing? I thought they shut it down.

Last year I saw it in Connecticut or maybe it was 2 years ago

Impossible to call a photo with camera so past wire

Drifter1
11-19-2013, 12:43 AM
Traynor is correct; Phoenix has been closed for well over a year.

wiffleball whizz
11-19-2013, 12:53 AM
Traynor is correct; Phoenix has been closed for well over a year.

GOOD!!!! One less thing I gotta worry about when I'm at Foxwoods

traynor
11-19-2013, 03:01 AM
Last year I saw it in Connecticut or maybe it was 2 years ago

Impossible to call a photo with camera so past wire

PGP has been shut down (for live racing) since 2009, AJ since 2007. All they have is simulcast. Tucson is the only live racing in AZ now. I was dismayed to find that Victoryland also went dark. They had some of the most consistent, predictable races I have ever seen. At least for me--I don't keep track much of what other bettors do. Birmingham is still good. Mostly Florida, though.

BuddyOscar
11-19-2013, 07:00 PM
Victoryland shut down because the owner of the track got into some legal troubles trying to have gaming machines in the facility if I remember right.

What tracks offer split times to the turn? Or have ever offered this?

I've been following dogs for nearly 20 years now and I've only seen a handful of tracks (2?) offer split times from the starting box to the finish line the first time but have never seen anything of a "first turn" time.

Many years ago I used to hand time the splits to the finish line first time and to the 1/8 pole at Gulf but it sure was a hell of a lot of work. Too much.

traynor
11-19-2013, 07:10 PM
Victoryland shut down because the owner of the track got into some legal troubles trying to have gaming machines in the facility if I remember right.

What tracks offer split times to the turn? Or have ever offered this?

I've been following dogs for nearly 20 years now and I've only seen a handful of tracks (2?) offer split times from the starting box to the finish line the first time but have never seen anything of a "first turn" time.

Many years ago I used to hand time the splits to the finish line first time and to the 1/8 pole at Gulf but it sure was a hell of a lot of work. Too much.

That is why we used the Konica--times were recorded in hundredths of a second. Tried the hand-held stopwatches, three different clockers, then averaged the times. The Konica beat that process hands-down for accuracy. Timing was not to the 1/8th--it was to the start of the first turn. By the time they hit the 1/8th pole, most of the trouble is over.

It still works, for anyone willing to take the time to do it. With todays equipment, it would be a slam dunk. Sit upstairs with a telephoto lens and start recording when the lead greyhound nears the turn. The only caveat is that the focal point has to be the same each time (pick a specific point on the rail and stick with it). We used 0.07 for lengths, and it worked well.

I, too, would be greatly interested to know which tracks (if any) offer split times currently.

Pensacola Pete
11-21-2013, 03:58 PM
Splits: Go to Trackinfo (http://trackinfo.com/) and look at the programs. Daytona and Tri State are two that have splits. They're to the left of the dog's running time.

Corner call: The corner call was Richard Weiss's idea in his book. The 1/8th call at most greyhound 5 1/16 mile races is near the end of the escape (clubhouse) turn. Weiss's corner call was before that point, it charted the dogs position as they hit the first turn (before the big pileup that happens on the turn). It's something that has to be done manually, i.e. by watching replays.

Phoenix: Phoenix closed in December of 2009. The quality of dogs there was much higher than it was at Tucson. Phoenix Greyhound Park was/is owned by Delaware North (also owns Southland, Tri State, and Daytona). As soon as DNC learned that they wouldn't get gaming or OTB parlors for PGP, they asked for a tax break. The state wouldn't give them one, and they closed live racing. It now operates as Apache Greyhound Racing, with simulcast wagering but no live racing. I think it also runs swap meets and such.

Tucson is the bottom of the barrel. They get all of the dogs that can't race anywhere else. Their advantage is that they have OTB parlors in the city that support the track.

traynor
11-21-2013, 06:01 PM
Splits: Go to Trackinfo (http://trackinfo.com/) and look at the programs. Daytona and Tri State are two that have splits. They're to the left of the dog's running time.

Corner call: The corner call was Richard Weiss's idea in his book. The 1/8th call at most greyhound 5 1/16 mile races is near the end of the escape (clubhouse) turn. Weiss's corner call was before that point, it charted the dogs position as they hit the first turn (before the big pileup that happens on the turn). It's something that has to be done manually, i.e. by watching replays.

Phoenix: Phoenix closed in December of 2009. The quality of dogs there was much higher than it was at Tucson. Phoenix Greyhound Park was/is owned by Delaware North (also owns Southland, Tri State, and Daytona). As soon as DNC learned that they wouldn't get gaming or OTB parlors for PGP, they asked for a tax break. The state wouldn't give them one, and they closed live racing. It now operates as Apache Greyhound Racing, with simulcast wagering but no live racing. I think it also runs swap meets and such.

Tucson is the bottom of the barrel. They get all of the dogs that can't race anywhere else. Their advantage is that they have OTB parlors in the city that support the track.

Thanks! Winter in Miami just jumped three steps closer.

NYMoment
11-22-2013, 01:50 PM
NYMoment,

Welcome to the board. I enjoyed your post. Like you, I also played full time in the early 80's, but only for about a year and one-half, while finding a good job after graduating college.

I agree with everything you said about both Fink and Weiss. I gave a friend the Fink stuff when I stopped playing but have held onto the Weiss book. It absolutely is the best.

I miss greyhound racing, and lament that it is a dying game. Some kennels brought it on themselves with the treatment of the dogs. However, lotto has crippled the sport.

To many unfamiliar with the intricacies of handicapping greyhounds, it seems like folly. However, some feel that way about handicapping horse racing as well. I think horse racing lends itself more to number crunchers wherein I feel greyhound handicapping is more artful in nature.

If you were at Derby Lane in the early 80's, our paths probably crossed.

Jim


Thanks for the kind words. Weiss wrote a follow-up that's worth tracking down too, though that might be difficult. I believe it is titled "Advanced Greyhound Handicapping" but that might not be correct. It expanded on handicapping the break, rushers and introduced his money management strategy (which entailed going for the kill). It helped refine my approach in a big way. Previously I was a out-of-control better. I had $10,000 weeks (at small handle tracks from the western U.S. no less) but some big losing weeks as well. After AGH, I settled down to be a quite, consistent winner. In some way those days were the best times of my life.

TB,QH, HR and greyhounds are sadly run by some of the dumbest capitalists ever, Pity.

Dog racing training basically ends when a dog can be taught to break out of the box and chase a lure. No, workouts to speak of, no strength training, no plyometrics training, nothing. If you are born fast great, if not you are put down. Pure stupidity considering the ugly reputation of the industry.

Race track operators put all their eggs in the numbers racket. When lotteries and Indian casinos were opened they were toast. Now they hang on by a thread. I haven't been to a dog track in 25 years.

NYMoment
11-22-2013, 02:03 PM
Splits: Go to Trackinfo (http://trackinfo.com/) and look at the programs. Daytona and Tri State are two that have splits. They're to the left of the dog's running time.

Corner call: The corner call was Richard Weiss's idea in his book. The 1/8th call at most greyhound 5 1/16 mile races is near the end of the escape (clubhouse) turn. Weiss's corner call was before that point, it charted the dogs position as they hit the first turn (before the big pileup that happens on the turn). It's something that has to be done manually, i.e. by watching replays.

Phoenix: Phoenix closed in December of 2009. The quality of dogs there was much higher than it was at Tucson. Phoenix Greyhound Park was/is owned by Delaware North (also owns Southland, Tri State, and Daytona). As soon as DNC learned that they wouldn't get gaming or OTB parlors for PGP, they asked for a tax break. The state wouldn't give them one, and they closed live racing. It now operates as Apache Greyhound Racing, with simulcast wagering but no live racing. I think it also runs swap meets and such.

Tucson is the bottom of the barrel. They get all of the dogs that can't race anywhere else. Their advantage is that they have OTB parlors in the city that support the track.

The corner call wasn't actually Weiss's idea. He was mentored by someone who was familar with the concept as where several more across the U.S. I believe it traces back to the 60's maybe even the 50's.

Phoenix actually had OTB racing for quite some time before they closed. They saw slots as the only way to prosper, and when that was shot down they saw selling their prime real estate as the better financial decision. Trouble was, by the time they got things in order to sell, the economy crashed and they were left with a swap meet only operation. Pretty comical.

Split times are an interesting concept. But considering the dire nature chartwriters "work" I am not sure how helpful it would be. Basically near-entry level employees hastily throw together the charts in about ten minutes (for the whole card). Often horribly inaccurate (IMHO anyway), to rely on them is a sucker's bet. YMMV.

traynor
11-22-2013, 06:46 PM
Anyone seriously using corner calls would be well advised to consider what the Sartin group referred to as "energy figures." Simplistically, componding corner time with ART (or some ratio discovered to be more accurate than simple summing). Much like early speed in thoroughbreds, it is only useful if the entry can get to the wire first. Greyhound racing--like thoroughbred racing--has quite a few entries that flash early speed and then fold in the stretch.

Corner splits can be very profitable, if used correctly.

agww
11-25-2013, 09:51 AM
Noticed a new listing today on eBay for about 50 copies of Greyhound Racing Magazines in various packages plus many system reports. Listed under Greyhound Handicapping - he has plenty of items on Horse Racing also.

Saratoga_Mike
11-25-2013, 10:55 AM
Is there greyhound racing anywhere else in the world? If so, what's the handle look like? Thx

Pensacola Pete
11-26-2013, 03:35 AM
Lots of countries have greyhound racing. The main parimutuel players are the U.S., the U.K., Australia, New Zealand, and Ireland. There's also racing at Caliente in Mexico and in Brazil and Argentina. A lot of countries run amateur (non-parimutuel, non-purse) meets. In these cases, the dogs are usually kept with the owners and not kenneled.

1st time lasix
11-26-2013, 12:53 PM
I would assume every dog track in US except maybe Palm Beach and St Pete would love to be able to shutter down their live dog racing...if they could maintain poker rooms, ongoing simulcast and slots. They are just waiting for the legislation that allows it. The overall patron interest in puppy racing dies a little more every year. At some facilities the pools are dreadful.

hracingplyr
11-26-2013, 04:09 PM
Can u give some insight on the proper ways to use these split times? I looked at the split times a Daytona beach dog track and wondered ok how do u use these to gain an advantage? Or does Mr. Weiss explain all this in his book?

BuddyOscar
11-27-2013, 10:16 AM
If you've got 2 dogs that show early speed in a race and frequently on the lead... just by looking at a traditional form you would have no idea which of the two is truly the faster early speed dog.

The split times will show you who is usually faster to the split (finish line the first time).
However it has flaws - some dogs break a little slower and have tremendous rush all the way to the turn... some dogs break super fast and are slower on the actual rush.
Then there's the "Just how accurate are these split times?". I've seen many instances where they were just plain wrong and even assigned the wrong splits to the wrong dogs after watching a replay.

hracingplyr
11-27-2013, 12:00 PM
right I have already seen numerous errors in the Daytona beach program. I sent an e-mail to the marketing dept at my home track Derby Lane about adding split times but never heard back. (surprise) :bang:

Pensacola Pete
11-28-2013, 05:42 AM
Palm, Derby, Southland, and Wheeling will probably keep racing regardless. They all do decent handle, and when the smaller tracks close, that will improve.

If Florida allows decoupling: Sarasota, Melbourne, Ebro, jefferson County, and Pensacola are instantly gone. Orlando doesn't have gaming and will stay around until they get it. Then they'll probably get rid of the dogs. Naples, Flagler, and Mardis Gras will run more limited meets if they get a tax break. Orange Park may wait and see if their handle improves when the other tracks close.

Birmingham and Mobile are still trying to get gaming to stick, which may happen if the Native Americans buy the tracks. Gulf and Tucson will probably stay around for a while.

Iowa is another story. Both Bluffs Run and Dubuque would end racing tomorrow if the state would allow it. The agricultural lobby is very strong there. It probably won't happen for a few more years.

agww
12-19-2013, 07:55 AM
Racing Greyhounds Magazine up on eBay right now

agww
12-19-2013, 07:59 AM
saw a D.D. Brown book on eBay today - might have Homberger material - but might have to ask - as I inquired about the Dick Herter items.