Females voters chose for Zenyatta over Blame

[toussaud]

http://jessicachapel.com/2011/01/04/zenyatta-feminista/

I always assumed this was the case, but this is just jaw dropping. 3 out of 123 people. Yet The male vote is split down the middle.

[DJofSD]

The phrasing is such I am tempted to make a joke but decency prevails.

Tom, you're next. Go for it.

[toussaud]

I admit I had to edit my post before posting lol

[Robert Goren]

The association between women and female horses is an interesting one. I knew one lady who thought that every time a filly beat the males it was some how a victory for women's rights. I never did get it. But there is lot of things I don't understand about women.;)

[Tom]

Women are smarter than men.
That is a proven fact.

We marry them...how smart can we be? :rolleyes::lol:

[The_Knight_Sky]

Women are smarter than men.

That is a proven fact.

We marry them...how smart can we be?



Not one to toot my own horn but.... I outsmarted them all.

I remained single. http://i56.tinypic.com/2q9065e.gif

[nijinski]

Had she not run her race on dirt i would have to say she was a synthetic
champion .I don't favor females over males in general , never did.
Zenyatta always finds a way to get to the finish line first , this nose loss
was not a trounce , Haynesfield did that to Blame. Zenyatta should be HOY.
My Female Opinion.

[toussaud]

Not saying it's right or wrong, no need to explain yourself, just, found it amazing there can be that much discrepancy between male and female voters of the two.

[toussaud]

I just had an epiphany.


We like to talk about all the new fans that z brought to the sport of horse racing. That poll IMHO shows they weren't horse racing fans, they were women who followed zenyatta, who more than likely are going to go away regardless of what happens now that Z is gone. The thought that Z brought new gamblers to the sport of horse racing IMHO is just plain false.

[cj]

If you annual handle isn't at least 20,000, you should not be allowed to vote.

[Sericm]

The same can be said when R.A. was racing! Did you ever stop to see who was carrying the signs and wearing the t-shirts!!!

[BluegrassProf]

The same can be said when R.A. was racing! Did you ever stop to see who was carrying the signs and wearing the t-shirts!!!Shirts and signs aside, I betcha'd be hard-pressed to find a boatload of folks around here that'd argue that one of Rachel Alexandra's brilliant fundamental-to-the-legacy attributes was her ability to drive people to the track - particularly in light of her actual, real-life 2009 campaign, where the emphases appear to lie.

Seems a pretty key point to me.

[Robert Goren]

If you annual handle isn't at least 20,000, you should not be allowed to vote.If your annual handle is over 20,000, you are more concerned with third race than you are over who wins horse of the year.

[cj]

If your annual handle is over 20,000, you are more concerned with third race than you are over who wins horse of the year.

If it isn't, you shouldn't be concerned with much of anything about the sport unless you are a participant.

[thaskalos]

The thought that Z brought new gamblers to the sport of horse racing IMHO is just plain false.It is not just "plain false"...it's ridiculous!

Gamblers are there to try to win money, not to watch "superstar" horses run.

The "true" gamblers won't flock to our game because of the millionaire HORSES...they are waiting to see the millionaire HORSEPLAYERS.

[Tom]

So you know for a fact that no one who came to the track got interested and became players?

Where do you suppose horse players come from?
The first time you made a bet your were already into horse racing?

[thaskalos]

So you know for a fact that no one who came to the track got interested and became players?

Where do you suppose horse players come from?
The first time you made a bet your were already into horse racing?I was motivated to become a horseplayer NOT by great horses, but rather by great HORSEPLAYERS...who had written intelligent handicapping books which "systematized" the art of handicapping...and promised healthy profits if their advice was adhered to...

Unfortunately, I discovered soon thereafter that they had greatly exaggerated...but the damage was done...and I embarked on my own search for handicapping truth...which continues to this day.

[CBedo]

It is not just "plain false"...it's ridiculous!

Gamblers are there to try to win money, not to watch "superstar" horses run.

The "true" gamblers won't flock to our game because of the millionaire HORSES...they are waiting to see the millionaire HORSEPLAYERS.I agree in general, but there are times when a "superstar" horse draws me to a race, not because I want to see them, but I think they will be overbet. The classic example is the "superstar" that wins the first two legs of the triple crown. That draws me to the Belmont, not because I want to see him (or her) win the triple crown, but because I want to bet against him. Same thing happened in the BC with Zenyatta this year. From a value standpoint, if you loved her, she was an underlay, and if you didn't like her chances, she made many others overlays.

[PaceAdvantage]

Zenyatta always finds a way to get to the finish line first , this nose loss
was not a trounce , Haynesfield did that to Blame. Zenyatta should be HOY.
My Female Opinion.This makes absolutely no sense when you include the fact that Blame beat Haynesfield in TWO out of their THREE meetings, including Blame TROUNCING Haynesfield in the BC Classic.

I can't fathom why people continue to bring up Haynesfield beating Blame as if that race matters much given the overall history between these two horses.

[cj]

This makes absolutely no sense when you include the fact that Blame beat Haynesfield in TWO out of their THREE meetings, including Blame TROUNCING Haynesfield in the BC Classic.

I can't fathom why people continue to bring up Haynesfield beating Blame as if that race matters much given the overall history between these two horses.

http://www.newsrealblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Grasping-at-Straws.jpg

[toussaud]

If you annual handle isn't at least 20,000, you should not be allowed to vote.
If your handle is over 20k you will be playing the last at penn national anyway lol.

[the little guy]

This makes absolutely no sense when you include the fact that Blame beat Haynesfield in TWO out of their THREE meetings, including Blame TROUNCING Haynesfield in the BC Classic.

I can't fathom why people continue to bring up Haynesfield beating Blame as if that race matters much given the overall history between these two horses.


You have to try to hold onto something when your general argument has credibility.

[cj]

If your handle is over 20k you will be playing the last at penn national anyway lol.

20k is nothing.

[Stillriledup]

This makes absolutely no sense when you include the fact that Blame beat Haynesfield in TWO out of their THREE meetings, including Blame TROUNCING Haynesfield in the BC Classic.

I can't fathom why people continue to bring up Haynesfield beating Blame as if that race matters much given the overall history between these two horses.

They bring it up because if you are trying to win a HOY title, and you only have 5 starts on the year, and one of them is a dud, its important. If Blame had 30 starts on the year, we can forgive one bad effort, but when you only have 5, and you're trying to beat the horse of the decade for an award, you can't have any screwups. At least this is the way some people are thinking.

[toussaud]

I think it's simple, good horses draw fans, good horse races, draw bettors. I had been watching horse racing forever, off and on, but the 05 breeders cup was the first time, when I looked at the races and said "humm.. i think these odds are pretty good for this horse (it was ghostzapper) from what I know of him.." I think he was right at 5 to 2. I think I will take my chances. I think I made a 10 dollar wager but still, the hook was set.

But what if Ghostzapper was in 5 horse field at 3/5 lol? I might not be here today.

So I think the trick is to 1. get people out by showing quality racing and 2. provide value.. and 3. wait for them to take the proverbial bait so to speak. You follow horse racing enough there will be a point where you think that you know something everyone else doesn't know and you will wager when you think you can make a score.


People who are looking at the track as an opportunity to gamble are not the same as people who are going, to see brilliance or history being made.

I mean the logic doesn't add up. "wow zenyatta is brilliant, I think i will wager on 9th at mountaineer"

In reality, horse racing doesn't promote it's horse players anywhere near enough. I was shown the game by a horse player, my father.


There is nothing wrong with those fans, at all. They buy concessions, they even wager (on overbet favs no less lol) But those are not the fans, that drive the sport, unless you want to reduce to a 3 day a week meet with 7 races a day, with nothing but allowance and stakes horses.

[Dahoss9698]

They bring it up because if you are trying to win a HOY title, and you only have 5 starts on the year, and one of them is a dud, its important. If Blame had 30 starts on the year, we can forgive one bad effort, but when you only have 5, and you're trying to beat the horse of the decade for an award, you can't have any screwups. At least this is the way some people are thinking.

You keep saying this, yet ignoring people when they respond to you about it. How is running 2nd a dud? Pretend you have a clue and answer just once.

[cj]

You keep saying this, yet ignoring people when they respond to you about it. How is running 2nd a dud? Pretend you have a clue and answer just once.

You obviously haven't seen the new purse structure. Horses are paid by lengths back, not finish position.

[PaceAdvantage]

You keep saying this, yet ignoring people when they respond to you about it. How is running 2nd a dud? Pretend you have a clue and answer just once.Must be the dreaded "Rachel Alexandra syndrome" continuing to hang over from earlier this year...you know...where she finishes second and that automatically means she should be retired post-haste.

[Dahoss9698]

Must be the dreaded "Rachel Alexandra syndrome" continuing to hang over from earlier this year...you know...where she finishes second and that automatically means she should be retired post-haste.

I know he isn't going to answer, but I'm genuinely curious. What about that effort was so bad? Certainly Haynesfield backed up that effort other times this year. Immediately after the JCGC I thought Blame looked like a horse that wasn't fully cranked and they were using the JCGC as a stepping stone to the Classic. We don't see much of this now in the "you have to win every race" era, but it does still happen.

I just would like someone to explain what was so awful about running second to Haynesfield.

[Spalding No!]

I know he isn't going to answer, but I'm genuinely curious. What about that effort was so bad? Certainly Haynesfield backed up that effort other times this year. Immediately after the JCGC I thought Blame looked like a horse that wasn't fully cranked and they were using the JCGC as a stepping stone to the Classic. We don't see much of this now in the "you have to win every race" era, but it does still happen.

I just would like someone to explain what was so awful about running second to Haynesfield.

Part of the problem is that Haynesfield had only won 8 of 12 career starts going into the JCGC. Hard to stomach a loss to a horse that wins only 2/3rds of the time.

Of course, its the exact same record Blame had going into the BC Classic when he beat Zenyetta.

[cj]

I know he isn't going to answer, but I'm genuinely curious...

That is the modus operandi of the Zenyots. If you ask a question, and the answer doesn't fit their agenda, it goes unanswered for all eternity. They simply move to another thread and repeat the same stuff.

[cpitt84]

Generally, I will only watch races of mares racing against males. Much more exciting to me. I followed Zenyatta and RA for most of 2009 and I certainly enjoyed their races.

But, I still would vote for Blame, although my heart wants Zenyatta.

[cj]

Generally, I will only watch races of mares racing against males. Much more exciting to me. I followed Zenyatta and RA for most of 2009 and I certainly enjoyed their races.

But, I still would vote for Blame, although my heart wants Zenyatta.

So you watch 5 or 6 times a decade?

[Relwob Owner]

So you watch 5 or 6 times a decade?


I would think the remark included watching racing overseas.....if not, your are right-not too many to watch!

[joanied]

I might be wrong, but I beleive that the majority of members here are men...yet the HoY poll right here has Zenyatta in the lead...makes ya wonder, don't it!:D

[BluegrassProf]

...makes ya wonder, don't it!:DAgain...it really doesn't.

[thaskalos]

That is the modus operandi of the Zenyots. If you ask a question, and the answer doesn't fit their agenda, it goes unanswered for all eternity. They simply move to another thread and repeat the same stuff.Ok Cj...I'll answer Dahoss's question, and I'll see if you will answer mine...since, unlike us, you Zenyatta critics are so forthcoming with the answers.

By your own pace and speed figures, the JCGC rated 107-104 (and the 107 was generous). Why should we be impressed with Blame's and Haynefield's performances, considering that the race was slow both pacewise and final timewise...by Grade1 older male standards?

If the race did NOT include Blame...would we consider a 107-104 Grade1 older male race impressive?

[cj]

Ok Cj...I'll answer Dahoss's question, and I'll see if you will answer mine...since, unlike us, you Zenyatta critics are so forthcoming with the answers.

By your own pace and speed figures, the JCGC rated 107-104 (and the 107 was generous). Why should we be impressed with Blame's and Haynefield's performances, considering that the race was slow both pacewise and final timewise...by Grade1 older male standards?

If the race did NOT include Blame...would we consider a 107-104 Grade1 older male race impressive?

You didn't answer, and you have my figures backwards. In this case, it makes a big difference.

[thaskalos]

You didn't answer, and you have my figures backwards. In this case, it makes a big difference.What did I have backwards? The final time was not 104?

[cj]

What did I have backwards? The final time was not 104?

No, it was 107, and you still haven't answered. Typical Zenyot.

I will say, in any case, 10f races at Belmont are not very reliable figure wise. They run around 1 1/2 turns and no other races are run that way. I've said it many times here. I think 107 is a good estimate, but it could be 110, could be 104, no way to be certain.

[cj]

Does this mean you won't answer now?

[thaskalos]

No, it was 107, and you still haven't answered. Typical Zenyot.
The question was "what was so awful about Blame finishing second to Haynesfield in the JCGC"...right?

Nobody said that the race was AWFUL...a second place finish can never be called awful. Blame's race was not impressive because he had good position throughout, was asked for run nearing the far turn, and was unable to make up ANY ground until it was much too late...finishing beaten by 4 in slow time.

Whether he was been "preped" for the Classic or not is not the point...his race in the JCGC was not impressive...and that's all that can be said about it.

The pace set-up explains the loss...but not the losing margin, considering that the horse was sitting a close 4th in the early going.

He simply did not run his race IMO...and I don't see why there is a need for making excuses for a potential HOTY.

[PhantomOnTour]

No, it was 107, and you still haven't answered. Typical Zenyot.

I will say, in any case, 10f races at Belmont are not very reliable figure wise. They run around 1 1/2 turns and no other races are run that way. I've said it many times here. I think 107 is a good estimate, but it could be 110, could be 104, no way to be certain.
To say the least.
Unless I've missed something, the JCGC was the only 10f dirt race run at Bel last year, and that includes both the spring/summer meet and the fall meet. There was only a handful (if that) of 9f dirt races, and two or three 12f dirt races. Any fig over 9f at Bel is a 'best guess' scenario.

[BluegrassProf]

...and I don't see why there is a need for making excuses for a potential HOTY.Odeargawd.

*ASPLODE!* :faint:

[thaskalos]

Odeargawd.

*ASPLODE!* :faint:Sorry professor...I neglected to post a "smiley" face after that comment.

[cj]

The question was "what was so awful about Blame finishing second to Haynesfield in the JCGC"...right?

Nobody said that the race was AWFUL...a second place finish can never be called awful. Blame's race was not impressive because he had good position throughout, was asked for run nearing the far turn, and was unable to make up ANY ground until it was much too late...finishing beaten by 4 in slow time.

Whether he was been "preped" for the Classic or not is not the point...his race in the JCGC was not impressive...and that's all that can be said about it.

The pace set-up explains the loss...but not the losing margin, considering that the horse was sitting a close 4th in the early going.

He simply did not run his race IMO...and I don't see why there is a need for making excuses for a potential HOTY.

Many are holding it against him like he finished 8th.

[Dahoss9698]

The question was "what was so awful about Blame finishing second to Haynesfield in the JCGC"...right?

Nobody said that the race was AWFUL...a second place finish can never be called awful. Blame's race was not impressive because he had good position throughout, was asked for run nearing the far turn, and was unable to make up ANY ground until it was much too late...finishing beaten by 4 in slow time.

Whether he was been "preped" for the Classic or not is not the point...his race in the JCGC was not impressive...and that's all that can be said about it.

The pace set-up explains the loss...but not the losing margin, considering that the horse was sitting a close 4th in the early going.

He simply did not run his race IMO...and I don't see why there is a need for making excuses for a potential HOTY.

You're spinning. Stillneverright called Blame's race a dud. He said it was a bad effort and a screwup. It wasn't. You might not have called it a bad race, but he did and I'm curious how it was a bad effort.

Now, sharp handicappers looked at the JCGC, the way it was set up and thought horses like Blame and Fly Down were going to be good plays coming into the BC. I know you liked Fly Down in the Classic, so you must have saw something in the way he ran (while making up little to no ground) to think he was a good play going forward. No one thinks Blame's JCGC was impressive. It was an okay effort that set him up pretty good for his next race. I'm just amazed that some are making such a big deal out of a second place finish in trying to diminish Blame's campaign.

On dirt, against a good, but not great horse for the course, you can't make up ground when said horse has everything their own way on the front end. You might be able to get to Rinterval while running on plastic, but not dirt against Haynesfield. Which sort of goes back to the whole competition arguement. Yes, Zenyatta showed up everytime. However, I think it's obvious her record was padded by running against glorified claimers for the better part of the last two years.

Zenyatta didn't run her "A" race everytime. But she didn't have to to beat some of the sad fields she did. It's a lot easier to win everytime when you are facing bad fields.

[thaskalos]

Many are holding it against him like he finished 8th.Maybe...but you called ME a Zenyot...and I like to consider myself an unbiased, well informed horseplayer. :)

[maiom01]

Many are holding it against him like he finished 8th.

Kind of like how you hold Zenyattas 6 inch loss...:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Stillriledup]

Kind of like how you hold Zenyattas 6 inch loss...:lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol:

Good one Oh ONE!

[Relwob Owner]

[QUOTE=..and I don't see why there is a need for making excuses for a potential HOTY.[/QUOTE]

That is exactly how I feel when I read all of the "why Zenyatta lost the Classic" posts from the Pro Zen crowd

[thaskalos]

That is exactly how I feel when I read all of the "why Zenyatta lost the Classic" posts from the Pro Zen crowdIt's easier to find excuses in a very close finish...than it is to do so when the losing margin is sizable. :)

[Dahoss9698]

That is the modus operandi of the Zenyots. If you ask a question, and the answer doesn't fit their agenda, it goes unanswered for all eternity. They simply move to another thread and repeat the same stuff.

I should probably cut him some slack. When your sole contribution to the board is bringing back 4 year old threads that no one cares about, it was probably asking WAY too much to see an opinion actually explained.

[cj]

Kind of like how you hold Zenyattas 6 inch loss...:lol: :lol: :lol:

More spin...it was a lot more than that.

[Relwob Owner]

It's easier to find excuses in a very close finish...than it is to do so when the losing margin is sizable. :)

Easier, yes but as you said, you shouldn't have to make any excuses for a potential HOY, right?

I appreciate your enthusiasm on Z but going down the road of downgrading Blame's performances makes little sense because you are downgrading the performances and abilities of a horse that beat the horse you support. Plus, looking at any races over the course of the year is a bad strategy because if the focus goes to who the two ran against and who they beat, Zenyatta doesn't even come close.....thank her connections for that.

[the little guy]

More spin...it was a lot more than that.


CMoron also ignores that the horse that beat her by his six inches ( give him a break....he can't count past six ) is the horse that is also the one unbiased observers consider the HOY.

[thaskalos]

Easier, yes but as you said, you shouldn't have to make any excuses for a potential HOY, right?

I appreciate your enthusiasm on Z but going down the road of downgrading Blame's performances makes little sense because you are downgrading the performances and abilities of a horse that beat the horse you support. Plus, looking at any races over the course of the year is a bad strategy because if the focus goes to who the two ran against and who they beat, Zenyatta doesn't even come close.....thank her connections for that.It is a handicapper's job to "downgrade" performances, if the reasons for the downgrading make handicapping sense...and I didn't do it to disparage Blame, or his campaign.

I have said many times that he deserves the HOTY award this year.

[cj]

CMoron also ignores that the horse that beat her by his six inches ( give him a break....he can't count past six ) is the horse that is also the one unbiased observers consider the HOY.

Oh yeah, forgot that was cmoore.

[Charlie D]

It is a handicappers job to "downgrade" performances, if the reasons for the downgrading make handicapping sense...and I didn't do it to disparage Blame, or his campaign.

I have said many times that he deserves the HOTY award this year.



The problem is though you are downgrading decent horses like Blame and Haynesfield.


Remove the JCGC from Blame's PP in 2010 and you see a decent ability horse. Remove the Classic and Whitney from Haynesfield's PP in 2010 and you see a decent ability horse.


The same applies to QR when you remove his poor run in Classic.

[thaskalos]

The problem is though you are downgrading decent horses like Blame and Haynesfield.


Remove the JCGC from Blame's PP in 2010 and you see a decent ability horse. Remove the Classic and Whitney from Haynesfield's PP in 2010 and you see a decent ability horse.


The same applies to QR when you remove his poor run in Classic.I was not downgrading Blame, Charlie...I only downgraded ONE race of his.

[Charlie D]

What you are doing thaskalos is downgrading a race that produced the winner and the third of probably the Top race in USA. That (along with other performances ) should indicate how good a race it was and also how poorly Haynesfield ran in that Top USA race.



Stop looking at the poor, below par efforts and look at the norm. Because when you do you will see horses that have the ability to win and finish ITM in the Top races in US.


Knowing this is so, is good for your bank balance long term.

[maiom01]

More spin...it was a lot more than that.

ok..maybe it was 7 inches. lmao....

[thaskalos]

What you are doing thaskalos is downgrading a race that produced the winner and the third of probably the Top race in USA. That (along with other performances ) should indicate how good a race it was and also how poorly Haynesfield ran in that Top USA race.



Stop looking at the poor, below par efforts and look at the norm. Because when you do you will see horses that have the ability to win and finish ITM in the Top races in US.


Knowing this is so, is good for your bank balance long term.
Charlie, I know enough about this game not to be fooled by a horse's subpar last race...but I thank you for the handicapping lesson anyway...

[cpitt84]

So you watch 5 or 6 times a decade?

I am not your avid horseracing fan. I will watch NFL games all day Sunday and keep up with hockey. But, only certain times for horseracing especially since zenyatta and RA are retired. I would like to keep watching blind luck, turbulent descent, goldikova. :)

[Some_One]

So Blame gets hit because he lost a open G1 to a G1/G1P horse?

Here is the 2010 record of the 2nd place finisher that Z beat by a couple of lengths in the Apple Blossom, which because of that she now has G1P in her breeding file

Jan 23rd: 1st 75K Stk
Feb 12th: 1st N2X 42K Alw
Mar 6th:9th G3
May 8th: 2nd 50k Stk
June 12th: 6th G3
July 7th: 2nd 75K stk
Aug 28th: 1st 100K stk
Sept 25th: 4th 100K Stk
(all races restricted to f/m)

This also proves the point regarding those Zealots about her winning 5 G1's...those were in name only, the horses obviously were barely G3 level, and Switch winning a double restricted (3yr only, filly only) G1 is not impressive.

Edit: One more addition, a horse who was only 1 length behind to Z early in the year and also now is considered a mighty G1 horse that nearly beat Z, lol....

Jan 8th: 5th AOC 100K
Feb 6th: 6th 60K Hdc
Apr 16th: 2nd 55K Hdc
May 16th: 5th G2
Jun 12th: 7th 60K Hdc
Sept 5th: 2nd 75K Hdc
Sept 25th: 3rd 50K Hdc
Nov 19th: 2nd N3X 48K

[maiom01]

So Blame gets hit because he lost a open G1 to a G1/G1P horse?

Here is the 2010 record of the 2nd place finisher that Z beat by a couple of lengths in the Apple Blossom, which because of that she now has G1P in her breeding file

Jan 23rd: 1st 75K Stk
Feb 12th: 1st N2X 42K Alw
Mar 6th:9th G3
May 8th: 2nd 50k Stk
June 12th: 6th G3
July 7th: 2nd 75K stk
Aug 28th: 1st 100K stk
Sept 25th: 4th 100K Stk
(all races restricted to f/m)

This also proves the point regarding those Zealots about her winning 5 G1's...those were in name only, the horses obviously were barely G3 level, and Switch winning a double restricted (3yr only, filly only) G1 is not impressive.

Again with the argument on who she beat..like I've said a hundred times..She would of been there at the end no matter who she faced..She improved both times in her breeders cup races by ten brisnet speed figure points. Was it a coincidence. Don't think so..She ran up to her competition. If her owner would of put her up against the males more often. She would of been there every single time. Winning close to all of them. A six inch loss vs. a 4 year old male who just ran the best race of his career on his home track is nothing for Zenyatta and her connections to hold there head down for..She won most of her races by small margins..That just how she ran. This time she dropped back too far and made up 2.5 to 3.5 lengths down the stretch on Blame but ran out of ground. That's it..She was the best horse in the race. How you all can't see this is beyond me. But whatever..She is the greatest mare to ever run..No doubt about it....

[Charlie D]

Charlie, I know enough about this game not to be fooled by a horse's subpar last race...but I thank you for the handicapping lesson anyway...

Then i'm a little confused by some of your earlier comments and there is no need to thank me as i like to help when and where i can.


BTW,. These techniques are what indicated Z was a TRUE contender in 2009 and 2010 Classics. ;)

[thaskalos]

BTW,. These techniques are what indicated Z was a TRUE contender in 2009 and 2010 Classics. ;)Good...they might come in handy in the upcoming handicapping contest. :)

[Charlie D]

Good...they might come in handy in the upcoming handicapping contest. :)

They may indeed come in handy, because the figs don't always tell the truth.

[thaskalos]

They may indeed come in handy, because the figs don't always tell the truth.Like a wise man said:

"There are lies, damned lies...and statistics." :)

[Some_One]

. But whatever..She is the greatest mare to ever run..No doubt about it....

On her two biggest days (BC), she has a couple of 110's Beyer, while CJ showed there is a list of mares who've run much higher speed figures including 120's (Xtra Heat comes to mind). She's also even not the best f/m of 2010.

[letswastemoney]

If her owner would of put her up against the males more often. She would of been there every single time. Winning close to all of them.

should have would have could have....the fact is...she didn't. She raced against them once a year.

I agree that she could have been successful in a yearlong campaign against males. But hypotheticals don't make for truth.

[Spalding No!]

If her owner would of put her up against the males more often. She would of been there every single time.

...and she would have deserved HOY in that instance, too.

She won most of her races by small margins..That just how she ran.

Actually, Zenyatta's average winning margin was just under 2 lengths for her 19 career victories.

Because of the close calls to Rinterval, Switch, St. Trinians, and the much ballyhooed Anabaa's Creation, Zenyatta supporters had to create a new mythologic attribute that would cover up the blaring decline in form. Hence the fairly recent "she runs to her competition" justification.

The genius of it is that it makes Zenyatta seemingly more otherworldly ("she knows where the wire is") than when she was at her peak.

[thaskalos]

On her two biggest days (BC), she has a couple of 110's Beyer, while CJ showed there is a list of mares who've run much higher speed figures including 120's (Xtra Heat comes to mind). She's also even not the best f/m of 2010.I am dying of curiosity...who WAS the best f/m of 2010?

[Dahoss9698]

I am dying of curiosity...who WAS the best f/m of 2010?


Goldikova
Zenyatta
Unrivalled Belle
Rachel Alexandra
Rumor :)

[thaskalos]

Goldikova
Zenyatta
Unrivalled Belle
Rachel Alexandra
Rumor :)Hey Dahoss..."Some One" has stated that, when he is thinking about fillies/mares who were better than Zenyatta...Xtra Heat enters his mind.

Could you please tell me if Xtra Heat ever won at a distance longer than 7 furlongs?

[toussaud]

Zenyatta is the Boise State of Horse Racing. If you are going to schedule cupcakes all yer and play one big game, you have to win that big game. you don't hear boise state fans debating for a BCS bid. They know they don't deserve it.

[thaskalos]

Zenyatta is the Boise State of Horse Racing. If you are going to schedule cupcakes all yer and play one big game, you have to win that big game. you don't hear boise state fans debating for a BCS bid. They know they don't deserve it.Unlike what the much respected poster "Dahoss" has already stated...when it comes to the HOTY honors...the races MAY NOT be everything.

Since there are no set rules in determining the award's recipient...it might be viewed as little more than a "popularity" contest by the majority of the voters...and we all know what would happen then.

I know...you will say that what I just said is ridiculous...but I have read enough voter opinions to know that this will be a very close vote.

If this year's races were EVERYTHING...what knowledgeable horse racing authority would ever vote against Blame this year?

[Dahoss9698]

Hey Dahoss..."Some One" has stated that, when he is thinking about fillies/mares who were better than Zenyatta...Xtra Heat enters his mind.

Could you please tell me if Xtra Heat ever won at a distance longer than 7 furlongs?

I'm too lazy to go get my book, but I'm pretty sure she never did. She was a dynamite sprinter though. And ran much too well to lose the Sprint in 2001.

[Dahoss9698]

Unlike what the much respected poster "Dahoss"
:lol: :lol:


If the races were EVERYTHING...what knowledgeable horse racing authority would ever vote against Blame this year?


None. But why should it not only be about races? Look at other awards in sports. The Cy Young doesn't go the feel good story of the year, or Jim Abbott would have won every year he pitched. It goes to the pitcher that had the best year. Same as the eclipse.

[thaskalos]

:lol: :lol:



None. But why should it not only be about races? Look at other awards in sports. The Cy Young doesn't go the feel good story of the year, or Jim Abbott would have won every year he pitched. It goes to the pitcher that had the best year. Same as the eclipse.I agree with you, but, unfortunately...neither one of us has a vote. :)

[Relwob Owner]

Unlike what the much respected poster "Dahoss" has already stated...when it comes to the HOTY honors...the races MAY NOT be everything.

Since there are no set rules in determining the award's recipient...it might be viewed as little more than a "popularity" contest by the majority of the voters...and we all know what would happen then.

I know...you will say that what I just said is ridiculous...but I have read enough voter opinions to know that this will be a very close vote.

If this year's races were EVERYTHING...what knowledgeable horse racing authority would ever vote against Blame this year?


When there are no set rules in any situation, then it is reasonable to look at the past....when was the last time HOY was awarded based on "popularity"?

[FenceBored]

When there are no set rules in any situation, then it is reasonable to look at the past....when was the last time HOY was awarded based on "popularity"?

If you toss 'sympathy' in with 'popularity' I'd say Charismatic.

[Some_One]

Goldikova
Zenyatta
Unrivalled Belle
Rachel Alexandra
Rumor :)

Add Snow Fairy to the top of that list, get rid of Z

[Bobzilla]

If her owner would of put her up against the males more often. She would of been there every single time. Winning close to all of them. A six inch loss vs. a 4 year old male who just ran the best race of his career on his home track is nothing for Zenyatta and her connections to hold there head down for.

Regardless of race shape? Maybe if she ran in the Hollywood Gold Cup or the Pacific Classic, but certainly not in The Whitney or the JCGC. So I think stating "close to all of them" might be a bit of a reach. In The Whitney she might even not have hit the board assuming her usual style of dropping far back early. As for the JCGC I don't think anyone was going to catch Haynesfield that day given the way the race unfolded. Rail Trip was a less considerable factor than most had anticipated and never really did engage the winner at any pont of the running, for whatever reason. It was there for the taking for a solid horse capable of the 105-109 range under ideal circumstances such as an uncontested lead through relative easy fractions under the expert riding of the opportunistic Ramon Dominguez. The early pace scenario needed for Z to run a figure in the neighborhood of the 108-112 range wasn't present that day. In no way am I knocking her, she's a wonderful athlete and I recognize that fact. But I think "close to all of them" is getting a little carried away if we're talking about her facing top class older males over dirt surfaces where typically the early pace scenarios aren't suitable to her preferred style.

[Cardus]

This thread title reflects the surprise of a headline that reads, "Today, the Sun Will Rise in the East and Set in the West."

[Some_One]

Tonight at the People's Choice awards, "The Twilight Saga: Eclipse" was named best Movie and best Drama...do you really think that film was the best film of the year? Of course not, it was just the most popular and because it's popular, doesn't mean it's good....the same thing can be those women and others who voted Z their favorite horse of the year.

[Relwob Owner]

If you toss 'sympathy' in with 'popularity' I'd say Charismatic.


Agreed

[BetCrazyGirl]

Tonight at the People's Choice awards, "The Twilight Saga: Eclipse" was named best Movie and best Drama...do you really think that film was the best film of the year? Of course not, it was just the most popular and because it's popular, doesn't mean it's good....the same thing can be those women and others who voted Z their favorite horse of the year.

That's a ridiculous comparison. I swear, so many on here act as if Zenyatta just won a bunch of claiming races. Zenyatta's race performances were great, she is always consistent and those races she won are Grade I races. Everyone must had forgot why Zenyatta became so popular, it was due to her preformance on the track, not just some popularity contest.

[Valuist]

What was Zenyatta's "signature win" of 2010? Was it beating up on Be Fair? Rinterval? Or any of the other non-entities she beat in 2010? She pointed all year to the Classic, had a perfect race shape set up, saved ground and had dead aim on the winner Blame....yet still couldn't win. Blame beats tougher fields, moves sooner into the fast pace in the Classic puts away other challengers and doesn't see Zenyatta until about 50 yards from the wire and when he finally does, repels her challenge. People are trying to make a lifetime achievement award out of this. Its not. Its about 2010 and Blame's resume is decidedly stronger. Case closed.

[BluegrassProf]

That's a ridiculous comparison. I swear, so many on here act as if Zenyatta just won a bunch of claiming races. Zenyatta's race performances were great, she is always consistent and those races she won are Grade I races. Everyone must had forgot why Zenyatta became so popular, it was due to her preformance on the track, not just some popularity contest.And I swear, when you read the legitimate discussions, critiques, and analyses (from both sides, when they do in fact appear), all you hear is the "WA-WA-WA" sounds of the grownups on Peanuts cartoons.

Gah. Way to hit the reset button on the dialogue. Again. :ThmbUp:

[DJofSD]

The best thing Z did the entire year was to take all of that money in the win pool during the BCC. Thanks!

[Grits]

That's a ridiculous comparison. I swear, so many on here act as if Zenyatta just won a bunch of claiming races. Zenyatta's race performances were great, she is always consistent and those races she won are Grade I races. Everyone must had forgot why Zenyatta became so popular, it was due to her preformance on the track, not just some popularity contest.

It is NOT a ridiculous comparison. Not at all. Its a very good comparison actually. But then, I couldn't stomach The People's Choice Awards but for 10 minutes. Lord what a mix of bore. Everyone here knows why Zenyatta became so popular, most, here, know she lost her final race to the better horse that evening.

This female, with a ballot, would've voted for Blame. Hopefully, others used their knowledge of racing and and this year's ontrack performances and did the same. One good thing, it'll be over Monday night, the 17th. FINALLY.

[Tom]

One good thing, it'll be over Monday night, the 17th. FINALLY.

Wanna bet?

[BetCrazyGirl]

It is NOT a ridiculous comparison. Not at all. Its a very good comparison actually. But then, I couldn't stomach The People's Choice Awards but for 10 minutes. Lord what a mix of bore. Everyone here knows why Zenyatta became so popular, most, here, know she lost her final race to the better horse that evening.

This female, with a ballot, would've voted for Blame. Hopefully, others used their knowledge of racing and and this year's ontrack performances and did the same. One good thing, it'll be over Monday night, the 17th. FINALLY.

It IS ridiculous, as I said before, many act as if she won a bunch of non graded races and wasn't consistent.

[Grits]

It IS ridiculous, as I said before, many act as if she won a bunch of non graded races and wasn't consistent.

:sleeping:

done

[BluegrassProf]

It IS ridiculous, as I said before, many act as if she won a bunch of non graded races and wasn't consistent.*Reset*



:faint:

[the little guy]

It IS ridiculous, as I said before, many act as if she won a bunch of non graded races and wasn't consistent.

Continually thinking she is defined simply by the grading of the races, while completely ignoring the competition she faced relative to the competition Blame faced, only exposes the weakness of your argument.

[joanied]

I've been pretty much staying out of the HoY argument...once the awards are given out, the debate will continue...at least until we have the new 3 year olds starting out on the Triple Crown road...and then we'll have something new to talk about:jump: ....

but I want to throw in my two cents about this Peoples Choice award thing...I didn't watch the show, could care less, but I don't agree that it's a good comparison for the Eclipse Awards...the Eclipse awards are not the peoples (fans) choice awards...the folks don't vote, so you just cannot compare the two...
but maybe it's time to include the folks in the equine end of year awards...even if it's just as a peoples choice thing.

[thaskalos]

It is NOT a ridiculous comparison. Not at all. Its a very good comparison actually.How could this be a very good comparison?

Is it unusual for the People's Choice Award to go to the most popular choice?

Isn't that what the phrase "People's Choice" already implies?

Don't we see this every year at Baseball's All-Star game voting...where popularity often trumps on-field performance?

"People's Choice" awards reward popularity...and HOTY honors should reward on-track achievement.

There is no similarity between the two.

[FenceBored]

How could this be a very good comparison?

Is it unusual for the People's Choice Award to go to the most popular choice?

Isn't that what the phrase "People's Choice" already implies?

Don't we see this every year at Baseball's All-Star game voting...where popularity often trumps on-field performance?

"People's Choice" awards go to popularity...and HOTY awards should go to on-track achievement. There is no similarity between the two.

I'm failing to see your point, or how it's not a fair comparison to say that public sentiment (in the form of the People's Choice award) is like public sentiment (in the form of people emailing Mr. Davidowitz to encourage him to cast his Eclipse HOY vote for Zenyatta).

[thaskalos]

I'm failing to see your point, or how it's not a fair comparison to say that public sentiment (in the form of the People's Choice award) is like public sentiment (in the form of people emailing Mr. Davidowitz to encourage him to cast his Eclipse HOY vote for Zenyatta).By limiting the voting privileges to "noted" horse racing authorities, rather than to the general public...it is expected that these "informed" voters will have no trouble distinguishing between popularity and on-track performance.

It would be an injustice if they can't...

[Grits]

How could this be a very good comparison?

Is it unusual for the People's Choice Award to go to the most popular choice?

Isn't that what the phrase "People's Choice" already implies?

Don't we see this every year at Baseball's All-Star game voting...where popularity often trumps on-field performance?

"People's Choice" awards reward popularity...and HOTY honors should reward on-track achievement.

There is no similarity between the two.

In ANY other year, no they wouldn't be remotely alike. You and I both know that is not the case this year, as do most other folks. Zenyatta worshippers truly believe she had the dominating campaign and that, somehow, her popularity which got so many non bettors to the racetrack, along with their skewed thinking of her brilliance should carry her to the coveted HotY title.

Too, here's another tidbit for you--let's see how many diary entries are printed at Zenyatta's website on her doings by her trainer's wife as the voice and thoughts of Zenyatta when the Eclipse Awards are a month past.
In other words, the campaign, Thask, for HotY has been ongoing, it hasn't let up for a day. Keep the focus on your candidate. Keep emailing those voters, folks.

Oh yes, there certainly is a similarity between the two awards this year. The only thing missing may be Twitter and Texting the night of Jan. 17th.

[BetCrazyGirl]

I'm failing to see your point, or how it's not a fair comparison to say that public sentiment (in the form of the People's Choice award) is like public sentiment (in the form of people emailing Mr. Davidowitz to encourage him to cast his Eclipse HOY vote for Zenyatta).

The problem is when it seems many are making assumptions that she is just popular for the sake of being popular, as if there is no substance to what she has done. Thats the impression I get when I'm reading stuff like how her fans are the women that just pick the pretty colors or what not , etc. over these boards. Yes, she is popular but she is popular for her races and thats what got the attention of many people.

[FenceBored]

By limiting the voting privileges to "noted" horse racing authorities, rather than to the general public...it is expected that these "informed" voters will have no trouble distinguishing between popularity and on-track performance.

It would be an injustice if they can't...


Mr. Davidowitz "sold (http://www.gradeoneracing.com/davidowitz.htm?read=91)" his vote to the masses, as detailed by backtracking the links in the original post for this thread. Is that an example of "distinguishing between popularity and on-track performance?" Or, is it turning his vote into the "People's Choice" Eclipse vote?

[Tom]

How much did he get for it?

[thaskalos]

The problem with the HOTY award is that it is not defined in any sensible way. People ASSUME that they know what it represents...but they don't, because the guidelines are vague...and open to different interpretations.
There was an article posted on this board not long ago, which included opinions about the HOTY award spanning the last 30 years...and even the authorities of this sport were confused about what the award represented.

Some said that the award should go to the horse with the year's best campaign.

Others said that it should go to the horse that did the best job "elevating" our sport...(whatever that means).

And there were still others claiming that the award should go to the best horse of the year...period!

Where there is no order...there is chaos. :)

[joanied]

IMO, the folks that actually vote, will vote for who they beleive had the better campaign...with maybe a few exceptions, I doubt they will allow popularity to get in the way of their vote...if that were the case, I beleive last year's HoY award would have been shared between Zenyatta and Rachel A...that would have been the popular thing to do...and they didn't do it.

But again...'they' should use sites like DRF, BloodHorse, TBTimes and have a place for the public to cast their votes for the winner in each catagory...every year...nothing wrong in getting the public involved...after all, that is what the (stupid) Peoples Choice Awards are all about...and the folks within the entertainment industry that vote for the Oscar awards don't allow the peoples choices of best actor, picture ect. to sway their own votes for who wins Oscars.

[Cardus]

The problem with the HOTY award is that it is not defined in any sensible way. People ASSUME that they know what it represents...but they don't, because the guidelines are vague...and open to different interpretations.
There was an article posted on this board not long ago, which included opinions about the HOTY award spanning the last 30 years...and even the authorities of this sport were confused about what the award represented.

Some said that the award should go to the horse with the year's best campaign.

Others said that it should go to the horse that did the best job "elevating" our sport...(whatever that means).

And there were still others claiming that the award should go to the best horse of the year...period!

Where there is no order...there is chaos. :)

I have never heard this criterion used until this year.

I am not disputing that people have said this, but I haven't heard it used until this year.

[thaskalos]

Mr. Davidowitz "sold (http://www.gradeoneracing.com/davidowitz.htm?read=91)" his vote to the masses, as detailed by backtracking the links in the original post for this thread. Is that an example of "distinguishing between popularity and on-track performance?" Or, is it turning his vote into the "People's Choice" Eclipse vote?
To be fair...he did say that, even if he was not compelled by his fans to vote for Zenyatta, he would STILL vote for her...based on her on-track accomplishments.

Upon further review...he changed his initial opinion...:)

[FenceBored]

How much did he get for it?

Something shy of 147 email addresses and the love of the people who see themselves as having guided his choice.

[Cardus]

Something shy of 147 email addresses and the love of the people who see themselves as having guided his choice.

Do I understand this correctly: Davidowitz advertised that his vote for Horse-of-the-Year would be the horse chosen by people who posted their choices on his website, and only 147 people responded? One-four-seven?

[letswastemoney]

I just assumed Davidowitz's readers would choose Zenyatta anyway since he's biased towards her and that's who his fanbase is. So I didn't bother

[bigmack]

Do I understand this correctly: Davidowitz advertised that his vote for Horse-of-the-Year would be the horse chosen by people who posted their choices on his website, and only 147 people responded? One-four-seven?
With a slight gender skew.

Ladies be lovin' & flockin' to DavidoWitz.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/davido.png

[Cardus]

I don't know how many people actually visited his website due to his gimmick -- a gimmick designed to attract people to his site -- but if only 147 people submitted a choice (for a sport with a fan base of millions), you'd have to say that his gimmick failed.

Did he base his votes for all of the categories on this basis? If not, why? That would make this stunt a pathetic gimmick.

[Relwob Owner]

I have never heard this criterion used until this year.

I am not disputing that people have said this, but I haven't heard it used until this year.



I have never heard of it, either....there have been past debates about who deserved it, but as far as I can remember, the merits discussed have been ON the track, not off of it.


If Zenyatta had won the BCC, would any of her fans be questioning what the award means or is awarded for? Nope, they would be heralding the Classic win as proof she was Horse of the Year and adhering to the past definition of what the award is given for, which is on track performance.

In my opinion, the questioning of what the award is for is another reach by her fans to try and convert her popularity into an award she doesnt deserve.

[Cardus]

I have never heard of it, either....there have been past debates about who deserved it, but as far as I can remember, the merits discussed have been ON the track, not off of it.


If Zenyatta had won the BCC, would any of her fans be questioning what the award means or is awarded for? Nope, they would be heralding the Classic win as proof she was Horse of the Year and adhering to the past definition of what the award is given for, which is on track performance.

In my opinion, the questioning of what the award is for is another reach by her fans to try and convert her popularity into an award she doesnt deserve.

Agreed. Just another element of the phoniness surrounding this debate.

[Sugar Ron]

I have never heard of it, either....there have been past debates about who deserved it, but as far as I can remember, the merits discussed have been ON the track, not off of it.


If Zenyatta had won the BCC, would any of her fans be questioning what the award means or is awarded for? Nope, they would be heralding the Classic win as proof she was Horse of the Year and adhering to the past definition of what the award is given for, which is on track performance.

In my opinion, the questioning of what the award is for is another reach by her fans to try and convert her popularity into an award she doesnt deserve.

Dude, do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Her terrific "on track performance" in the BCC is one of the main reasons guys like Davidowitz and Byron King (who posted an excellent opinion on DRF.com the other day) are supporting her for the award.

[Dahoss9698]

Dude, do you have any idea what you're talking about?



Oh, the irony.

[Sugar Ron]

Oh, the irony.

Oh the predictability...

[gm10]

That is the modus operandi of the Zenyots. If you ask a question, and the answer doesn't fit their agenda, it goes unanswered for all eternity. They simply move to another thread and repeat the same stuff.

As far as I'm concerned there are no questions left to be answered about this at all. She is the greatest mare of the decade, she is one of the best horses of the decade. She lost her final race by a nose against a strong horse, rallying from a hopeless position.

She was a great horse and meant a lot to a lot of people. Why do you have to keep making disdainful remarks about her and her fans. Why not show some respect?

[Dahoss9698]

Oh the predictability...

Coming from the person who only posts about Zenyatta.

[Dahoss9698]

She was a great horse and meant a lot to a lot of people. Why do you have to keep making disdainful remarks about her and her fans. Why not show some respect?

Some of your best work yet. :lol:

[thaskalos]

Why do you have to keep making disdainful remarks about her and her fans. Why not show some respect?Don't worry GM10...the respect for her fans will come after the handicapping contest...:)

[gm10]

Some of your best work yet. :lol:

It applies to you as well actually.
Do you see any of us making fun of RA's disappointing campaign? What pleasure do you people get out of this?

[gm10]

Don't worry GM10...the respect for her fans will come after the handicapping contest...:)

At least they are brave enough to take part when it's not a head-to-head contest ;)

[Dahoss9698]

It applies to you as well actually.
Do you see any of us making fun of RA's disappointing campaign? What pleasure do you people get out of this?

Do you think Zenyatta reads the board? I wonder if her feelings get hurt when people discuss her campaign and the chance that maybe she isn't as good as some think.

How mean.

[gm10]

Do you think Zenyatta reads the board? I wonder if her feelings get hurt when people discuss her campaign and the chance that maybe she isn't as good as some think.

How mean.

That's got nothing to do with it, and don't try to avoid the question.
What kick do you get out of it? It is what the Germans call schadenfreude?

[thaskalos]

Do you think Zenyatta reads the board? I wonder if her feelings get hurt when people discuss her campaign and the chance that maybe she isn't as good as some think.

How mean.This is a DEFLECTION!

Why are you avoiding GM10's point, about us Zenyots showing our "class" in our treatment of Rachel, after her uninspired campaign last year?

[BetCrazyGirl]

Do you think Zenyatta reads the board? I wonder if her feelings get hurt when people discuss her campaign and the chance that maybe she isn't as good as some think.

How mean.

She ended up being better then what some thought, since some didn't think she had a chance in winning the first breeder cup classic she was in and some on here didn't even think she would get in the money in last years breeder's cup, that she was just going to be some push over.

[Dahoss9698]

That's got nothing to do with it, and don't try to avoid the question.
What kick do you get out of it? It is what the Germans call schadenfreude?

Avoid the question? That's rich. Especially coming from you.

It's a message board. We're talking about horse racing. I love horse racing and love talking about it. That's the enjoyment.

What kick do you get out of being wrong? You must because you seem to have perfected it. Show some respect for the history of the game.

[affirmedny]

Had she not run her race on dirt i would have to say she was a synthetic
champion .I don't favor females over males in general , never did.
Zenyatta always finds a way to get to the finish line first , this nose loss
was not a trounce , Haynesfield did that to Blame. Zenyatta should be HOY.
My Female Opinion.

Zenyatta would have most likely finished well behind Blame if she ran in that race with Haynesfield. I would quit bringing it up if I was a Zenyatta supporter.

[thaskalos]

Zenyatta would have most likely finished well behind Blame if she ran in that race with Haynesfield. I would quit bringing it up if I was a Zenyatta supporter.How do you KNOW that Zenyatta would have finished BEHIND Blame, in the JCGC?

Are you one of those "superior" handicapping Zenyatta critics, that CJ has alluded to?

[gm10]

Avoid the question? That's rich. Especially coming from you.

It's a message board. We're talking about horse racing. I love horse racing and love talking about it. That's the enjoyment.

What kick do you get out of being wrong? You must because you seem to have perfected it. Show some respect for the history of the game.

Keep avoiding the question. Who here doesn't have good time to waste on your deflections.

[Dahoss9698]

How do you KNOW that Zenyatta would have finished BEHIND Blame, in the JCGC?

Are you one of those "superior" handicapping Zenyatta critics, that CJ has alluded to?

Still upset about that comment all these months later. Hilarious, really is.

[Dahoss9698]

At least they are brave enough to take part when it's not a head-to-head contest ;)
Are you talking about Thaskalos here?

[gm10]

Still upset about that comment all these months later. Hilarious, really is.

It was, yes.

[gm10]

Are you talking about Thaskalos here?

Not necessarily, your participation would have been good enough already.

[Dahoss9698]

Keep avoiding the question. Who here doesn't have good time to waste on your deflections.

I don't agree that there is a lack of class in looking at Zenyatta's campaign and career without emotion and looking at it analytically. I also don't agree that rachel's campaign and career wasn't picked apart also. Go back and look at the threads.

The difference is no one whined about it like you guys do.

Now I'll be waiting for you to answer my questions.

[Dahoss9698]

Not necessarily, your participation would have been good enough already.

I'll take that as a yes. it was weird that he was a no show that time wasn't it?

[thaskalos]

I'll take that as a yes. it was weird that he was a no show that time wasn't it?Where was I a no show?

[Dahoss9698]

Here we go with the playing dumb routine. Nice deflection.

[gm10]

I don't agree that there is a lack of class in looking at Zenyatta's campaign and career without emotion and looking at it analytically. I also don't agree that rachel's campaign and career wasn't picked apart also. Go back and look at the threads.

The difference is no one whined about it like you guys do.

Now I'll be waiting for you to answer my questions.

Just answer the question. What is it you find so pleasurable about knocking Zenyatta and ridiculing her fans.

[gm10]

I'll take that as a yes. it was weird that he was a no show that time wasn't it?

There were many no-shows if I remember correctly. Some were expected, others weren't. I also remember your snide remarks during the contest when I was making a loss. I see a pattern emerging here.

[thaskalos]

Here we go with the playing dumb routine. Nice deflection.The only handicapping contest I would consider participating in head-to-head would have to be an EVERYDAY contest, consisting of at least 500 win plays...leaving no doubt as to who the best handicapper is.

And I wouldn't hesitate to face ANYONE!

[nijinski]

Zenyatta would have most likely finished well behind Blame if she ran in that race with Haynesfield. I would quit bringing it up if I was a Zenyatta supporter.

She happened to adapt very well to different pace scenarios , so it's
always going to be open for debate.

[Dahoss9698]

Just answer the question. What is it you find so pleasurable about knocking Zenyatta and ridiculing her fans.

Your premise is faulty and Bigmack already beat you to this. I'm not knocking Zenyatta. I have said probably a dozen times that she is a fantastic mare. I disagree with where many place her in history. I disagree she deserves HOY.
That's it.

Now answer mine. WHy are you always wrong?

[Dahoss9698]

The only handicapping contest I would consider participating in head-to-head would have to be an EVERYDAY contest, consisting of at least 500 win plays...leaving no doubt as to who the best handicapper is.

And I wouldn't hesitate to face ANYONE!

Lots of lip service from someone who disappears anytime it's time to have an opinion on a race.

[cj]

... rallying from a hopeless position.

...Why not show some respect?

Because of idiotic posts like these. First, it was far from hopeless. Ask those that saw Mine That Bird win from farther back. Second, even if it was hopeless, it was her own lack of speed that put her in that position. She had no trouble, and the pace was PERFECT for that style.

[Dahoss9698]

There were many no-shows if I remember correctly. Some were expected, others weren't. I also remember your snide remarks during the contest when I was making a loss. I see a pattern emerging here.

Don't forget to mention all of those pm's you get from people saying how awful I am. that's my favorite.

[gm10]

Your premise is faulty and Bigmack already beat you to this. I'm not knocking Zenyatta. I have said probably a dozen times that she is a fantastic mare. I disagree with where many place her in history. I disagree she deserves HOY.
That's it.

Now answer mine. WHy are you always wrong?

I am starting to lose interest a little. Can you just confirm that you will not answer my question?

[cj]

It applies to you as well actually.
Do you see any of us making fun of RA's disappointing campaign? What pleasure do you people get out of this?

Yes, many people have. Try using the search function.

[Dahoss9698]

I am starting to lose interest a little. Can you just confirm that you will not answer my question?

You seem to be having trouble reading. I answered. I don't feel as though I "knock" Zenyatta. I have an opinion on her. I take pleasure in discussing horse racing. if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[thaskalos]

Lots of lip service from someone who disappears anytime it's time to have an opinion on a race.What does this mean? Are you asking me why I haven't yet posted any picks on this board?

Why would I?

[gm10]

Because of idiotic posts like these. First, it was far from hopeless. Ask those that saw Mine That Bird win from farther back. Second, even if it was hopeless, it was her own lack of speed that put her in that position. She had no trouble, and the pace was PERFECT for that style.

Ah yes the pace. Your brilliant prediction that there wouldn't be any pace notwithstanding, the race set up perfectly for Blame. Not for Zenyatta, who was far behind a group of horses who were running well within themselves behind the first four.

The question applies to you as well by the way. WHY OH WHY do you keep going? Why not let it go, stop calling us Zenyattards, Zenyots or whatever embarrassing word play you'll come up with next, and move on? We had the privilege to witness the greatest mare of the decade for 3 full campaigns. What right do you have to belittle her fans like this? Can you really not see that you've milked this too long by now?

[affirmedny]

How do you KNOW that Zenyatta would have finished BEHIND Blame, in the JCGC?



Because I graduated from handicapping kindergarten.

[Dahoss9698]

What does this mean? Are you asking me why I haven't yet posted any picks on this board?

Why would I?

Your teammate has taught you well. Have a nice night. :)

[cj]

Ah yes the pace. Your brilliant prediction that there wouldn't be any pace notwithstanding, the race set up perfectly for Blame. Not for Zenyatta, who was far behind a group of horses who were running well within themselves behind the first four.

The question applies to you as well by the way. WHY OH WHY do you keep going? Why not let it go, stop calling us Zenyattards, Zenyots or whatever embarrassing word play you'll come up with next, and move on? We had the privilege to witness the greatest mare of the decade for 3 full campaigns. What right do you have to belittle her fans like this? Can you really not see that you've milked this too long by now?

Kind of reminds of The Zax, by Dr. Seuss. I'm stubborn, what can I say? You are just as bad.

I don't consider watching her a privilege because of the pathetic campaigns her connections chose. I consider her career a disappointment. I'm also tired of hearing her compared to all time greats, which she proved to me in the Classic she was not. All time greats can run a 25 flat opening quarter if needed.

http://www.iranian.com/Satire/Cartoon/2002/August/Images/zax.jpg

[cj]

Because I graduated from handicapping kindergarten.

Perfect! Only a true novice could think with a slower pace Zenyatta could beat Blame that day, let alone Haynesfield.

[thaskalos]

Because I graduated from handicapping kindergarten.Then you are ready for the first grade.

[Cardus]

Ah yes the pace. Your brilliant prediction that there wouldn't be any pace notwithstanding, the race set up perfectly for Blame. Not for Zenyatta, who was far behind a group of horses who were running well within themselves behind the first four.

The question applies to you as well by the way. WHY OH WHY do you keep going? Why not let it go, stop calling us Zenyattards, Zenyots or whatever embarrassing word play you'll come up with next, and move on? We had the privilege to witness the greatest mare of the decade for 3 full campaigns. What right do you have to belittle her fans like this? Can you really not see that you've milked this too long by now?

I'd like to know what kind of high you get off of being the Internet Land Idiot.

[gm10]

Perfect! Only a true novice could think with a slower pace Zenyatta could beat Blame that day, let alone Haynesfield.

I have no doubt she would have beaten Blame that day. I think it was my good friend Dahoss who said that he didn't look fully cranked up that day, and I agree.

[gm10]

I'd like to know what kind of high you get off of being the Internet Land Idiot.

No high, only lows especially with posts like yours.

[cj]

I have no doubt she would have beaten Blame that day. I think it was my good friend Dahoss who said that he didn't look fully cranked up that day, and I agree.

That is certainly possible that day, but that really isn't the question. Under what circumstances could she have beaten Blame in the Classic if she didn't do it that day?

[gm10]

That is certainly possible that day, but that really isn't the question. Under what circumstances could she have beaten Blame in the Classic if she didn't do it that day?

If she had had a prep run on the dirt. If she had, the whole experience feels less alien to her and she beats Blame that day because she is a better horse (no disrespect to Blame who is a very good horse himself).

I'm not expecting anyone to agree with this, but it is my honest answer to your question.

[FenceBored]

If she had had a prep run on the dirt. If she had, the whole experience feels less alien to her and she beats Blame that day because she is a better horse (no disrespect to Blame who is a very good horse himself).

I'm not expecting anyone to agree with this, but it is my honest answer to your question.

And who was begging and pleading with her connections to run a fall prep on dirt? Was it her apologists? Or, was it her "critics?" Who wanted her to be properly prepped for the Classic?

[cj]

If she had had a prep run on the dirt. If she had, the whole experience feels less alien to her and she beats Blame that day because she is a better horse (no disrespect to Blame who is a very good horse himself).

I'm not expecting anyone to agree with this, but it is my honest answer to your question.

I don't agree it is likely, but possible, sure. You are in big trouble now questioning the connections La Reina.

[Cardus]

If she had had a prep run on the dirt. If she had, the whole experience feels less alien to her and she beats Blame that day because she is a better horse (no disrespect to Blame who is a very good horse himself).

I'm not expecting anyone to agree with this, but it is my honest answer to your question.

Since she didn't run a prep on dirt -- which seems like a training error, no? -- then should her trainer win the Eclipse Award in his category?

[cj]

Since she didn't run a prep on dirt -- which seems like a training error, no? -- then should her trainer win the Eclipse Award in his category?

Of course not, he only had about 75 more starters than I did this year.

[gm10]

I don't agree it is likely, but possible, sure. You are in big trouble now questioning the connections La Reina.

I am not questioning anyone. This is with hindsight.

[cj]

I am not questioning anyone. This is with hindsight.

Yes, but it was foresight for a lot of people here, just not the Mosses.

[gm10]

Since she didn't run a prep on dirt -- which seems like a training error, no? -- then should her trainer win the Eclipse Award in his category?

Of course he should. He's a phenomenal trainer, and I'm not talking about Zenyatta alone.

It's easy and probably unfair to call it an error after the event. Also don't forget that your margin of error was about a nose.

[gm10]

Yes, but it was foresight for a lot of people here, just not the Mosses.

Your foresight was that

a/ Zenyatta wouldn't run in the Classic
b/ Gio Ponti would run in the Classic
c/ there would be no pace in the Classic
d/ Quality Road would win the Classic

Shall we just accept that a lot of foresights are best forgotten?

[cj]

Your foresight was that

a/ Zenyatta wouldn't run in the Classic
b/ Gio Ponti would run in the Classic
c/ there would be no pace in the Classic
d/ Quality Road would win the Classic

Shall we just accept that a lot of foresights are best forgotten?

Some are, some aren't.

[cj]

Of course he should. He's a phenomenal trainer, and I'm not talking about Zenyatta alone.

It's easy and probably unfair to call it an error after the event. Also don't forget that your margin of error was about a nose.

You honestly believe his year deserves an Eclipse Award? 2010? You must be drinking.

Oh, and it wasn't a about a nose. Another lie.

[thaskalos]

Your foresight was that

a/ Zenyatta wouldn't run in the Classic
b/ Gio Ponti would run in the Classic
c/ there would be no pace in the Classic
d/ Quality Road would win the Classic

Shall we just accept that a lot of foresights are best forgotten?They all said that Zenyatta was just a "synthetic surface curiosity", and predicted that she would be out of the money in the Classic, GM10...and when she lost by a diminishing head, they told us:

"SEE...we told you she would lose in the Classic. She was exactly who we thought she was"...

[gm10]

You honestly believe his year deserves an Eclipse Award? 2010? You must be drinking.

Oh, and it wasn't a about a nose. Another lie.

How much was it then Mr. 100% Accuracy? A nose and a three nostrils?

[cj]

They all said that Zenyatta was just a "synthetic surface curiosity", and predicted that she would be out of the money in the Classic, GM10...and when she lost by a diminishing head, they told us:

"SEE...we told you she would lose in the Classic. She was exactly who we thought she was"...

I don't believe I predicted she would be out of the money.

This is exactly what I wrote about her prerace:

"Zenyatta goes for 20 in a row and tries to remain undefeated. Can she? Of course, she is a very good horse. Will she? I don't think so. One thing I do think is she will offer no value. She is not as good as her reputation on dirt in my opinion. Sure, she beat Ginger Punch over 2 1/2 years ago, but remember nobody Brownie Points also beat her that day.

Horses with her running style face a huge disadvantage when facing horses of similar quality on dirt. I can't imagine given her reputation that the pace will be anything faster than moderate. It will be very difficult for her to overcome that type scenario. This isn't a synthetic track, and these aren't the horses she was toying with in California and Arkansas this year.

If she does win in a fast time, I'll be happy to praise her as a fabulous horse. I'll also be sad to realize what could have been if the connections had shown any kind of competitive spirit these last two years. Anyway, enough of that, I'm a bettor not a historian."

Given that the pace was faster than moderate (and gm10, moderate is not slow, or no pace), I'm just not that impressed. Her final time wasn't anything special either, and that goes for Blame too. Sorry, but that looks to me like she was exactly what I thought she was.

[cj]

How much was it then Mr. 100% Accuracy? A nose and a three nostrils?

It was clearly a full head, but feel free to make things up to help Zenyatta's legacy. What else is new?

[gm10]

They all said that Zenyatta was just a "synthetic surface curiosity", and predicted that she would be out of the money in the Classic, GM10...and when she lost by a diminishing head, they told us:

"SEE...we told you she would lose in the Classic. She was exactly who we thought she was"...

Yes I know. If I got away with one huge mistake that exposes a deep flaw in my handicapping, got away with by a nose (and maybe a few nostrils, CJ is checking the photo finish), I'd want to keep schtum about it, but clearly this is not a widely shared opinion.

[gm10]

It was clearly a full head, but feel free to make things up to help Zenyatta's legacy. What else is new?

Alright it was a head. Happy now?

[cj]

Alright it was a head. Happy now?

Yes, why lie in the first place?

[gm10]

Yes, why lie in the first place?

"zenyatta loses by a nose"

Google: About 495,000 results (0.25 seconds).

The internet is full of malicious Zenyatta-revisionist liars, apparently.

Forget all the petty comments you've been making, the clear lack of understanding you've displayed regarding Zenyatta on many occasions, your brilliant foresight. The part to focus on truly is 'the nose'.

[cj]

"zenyatta loses by a nose"

Google: About 495,000 results (0.25 seconds).

The internet is full of malicious Zenyatta-revisionist liars, apparently.

Forget all the petty comments you've been making, the clear lack of understanding you've displayed regarding Zenyatta on many occasions, your brilliant foresight. The part to focus on truly is 'the nose'.

Liars is harsh...embellishers is better. It is an epidemic.

This is my last ever post on Zenyatta, ever. This isn't an "I'm leaving" post like you and T have both done recently, I'm just leaving the topic. And it will be true to my word, unlike the two of you.

She lost to a good horse. That is what Blame is, a good horse. He isn't in anybody's top 100. That also shows what Zenyatta is, your typical very good race mare. Top 50, maybe 25, of all time. Why is that so terrible to say? Why do some take it as a personal affront? I have no idea, but it isn't going to change. I tried to educate, but I failed. If only Zenyots could handle failure as well as I just did...

[thaskalos]

Liars is harsh...embellishers is better. It is an epidemic.

This is my last ever post on Zenyatta, ever. This isn't an "I'm leaving" post like you and T have both done recently, I'm just leaving the topic. And it will be true to my word, unlike the two of you.

She lost to a good horse. That is what Blame is, a good horse. He isn't in anybody's top 100. That also shows what Zenyatta is, your typical very good race mare. Top 50, maybe 25, of all time. Why is that so terrible to say? Why do some take it as a personal affront? I have no idea, but it isn't going to change. I tried to educate, but I failed. If only Zenyots could handle failure as well as I just did...Don't feel so bad CJ...we failed too.

If, after all the words spoken (and typed) on her behalf, you STILL think that Zenyatta was just your "TYPICAL very good race mare"...then OUR failure to educate was bigger than yours.

[gm10]

Liars is harsh...embellishers is better. It is an epidemic.

This is my last ever post on Zenyatta, ever. This isn't an "I'm leaving" post like you and T have both done recently, I'm just leaving the topic. And it will be true to my word, unlike the two of you.

She lost to a good horse. That is what Blame is, a good horse. He isn't in anybody's top 100. That also shows what Zenyatta is, your typical very good race mare. Top 50, maybe 25, of all time. Why is that so terrible to say? Why do some take it as a personal affront? I have no idea, but it isn't going to change. I tried to educate, but I failed. If only Zenyots could handle failure as well as I just did...

There was a lot to learn about speed, times, race dynamics, how to should assign speed figures under a wider set of circumstances, learning to quantify the part of the race that really matters, but for some reason you clung on to your old ideas that really only work on the dirt. You should have tried to educate yourself during this episode, maybe you wouldn't have failed then.

[thaskalos]

There was a lot to learn about speed, times, race dynamics, how to should assign speed figures under a wider set of circumstances, learning to quantify the part of the race that really matters, but for some reason you clung on to your old ideas that really only work on the dirt. You should have tried to educate yourself during this episode, maybe you wouldn't have failed then.He won't answer us GM10...he KEEPS his word...unlike the two of us.

[gm10]

He won't answer us GM10...he KEEPS his word...unlike the two of us.
Just as well really (1am here and tired ;) )