GOOD NEWS, BAD NEWS: TAMPA BAY DOWNS AND SANTA ANITA

[andymays]

GOOD NEWS, BAD NEWS: TAMPA BAY DOWNS AND SANTA ANITA

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/good-news-bad-news-tampa-bay-downs-and-santa-anita/

Excerpt:

I’ve got some good news and bad about the business of winter racing in Florida and California. Do you want the good news or bad news first?

I thought so.

Wagering for the first seven days of the Santa Anita Park winter meet has been abysmal in comparison to 2009-10. After seven days, average daily handle is down 18.0%, with out-of-state wagering showing a 21.9% drop in comparison to the first seven days of last year’s meeting.

Excerpt:

Wagering on Tampa Bay is up during the same period that Santa Anita is down,

[Fat Syd]

OTB has to have effected SA a lot more then people realized.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

OTB has to have effected SA a lot more then people realized.
But not Tampa Bay?

[Saratoga_Mike]

OTB has to have effected SA a lot more then people realized.

Why hasn't it impacted Tampa? And why hasn't it impacted AQU more?

[skate]

biggest problem, field size

[cj]

biggest problem, field size

Is it really any different than it has been in SoCal? It is tough to blame something that hasn't changed.

[thaskalos]

The "smart" money won't show up in California, until the dirt form is firmly established...

[Saratoga_Mike]

The "smart" money won't show up in California, until the dirt form is firmly established...

Besides the boycott, I think this (dirt form) is a huge issue.

[thaskalos]

Besides the boycott, I think this (dirt form) is a huge issue.Bigger issue than the boycott, IMO...

[Saratoga_Mike]

Bigger issue than the boycott, IMO...

I wanted to say that, but the takeout guys would jump down my throat. :)

[thaskalos]

I wanted to say that, but the takeout guys would jump down my throat. :)I consider myself one of the "takeout guys"...but being a Chicago area bettor, and having to deal with horses migrating from Arlington to Hawthorne on a regular basis...I am well aware of the chaos that this change of surface can produce.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I consider myself one of the "takeout guys"...but being a Chicago area bettor, and having to deal with horses migrating from Arlington to Hawthorne on a regular basis...I am well aware of the chaos that this change of surface can produce.

I appreciate the lower takeout cause, but it isn't the only issue, as you've noted.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I consider myself one of the "takeout guys"...but being a Chicago area bettor, and having to deal with horses migrating from Arlington to Hawthorne on a regular basis...I am well aware of the chaos that this change of surface can produce.
Hawthorne was up 8% this year. But this change happens every year so it isn't fair to say poly to dirt has anything to do with it.
But I find it hard to even consider the economy excuse now that we are seeing handles from other tracks rise.
I think, for many, the boycott already started when the bill was signed, and the B tracks especially are benefiting from it.

[andymays]

Risk of ruin
By Ed DeRosa of Thoroughbred Times

http://blog-beb.thoroughbredtimes.com/2011/01/risk-of-ruin.html

Excerpt:

The most insulting aspect of California raising its takeout 2% on two-horse wagers and 3% on three (or more)-horse wagers was not the increase itself but the reaction of industry stakeholders trying to justify it.

Excerpt:

And to me that's why the California situation is so hard to handle even in the face of higher takeout in other jurisdictions (e.g. NYRA 26%, Fair Grounds 25%, etc.). To have a racetrack leader or industry regulator put public relations spin on something that is so obviously bad for the core product of racing has me more concerned for the future of this sport than anything I have ever encountered.

[thaskalos]

Risk of ruin

By Ed DeRosa of Thoroughbred Times

http://blog-beb.thoroughbredtimes.com/2011/01/risk-of-ruin.html

Excerpt:

The most insulting aspect of California raising its takeout 2% on two-horse wagers and 3% on three (or more)-horse wagers was not the increase itself but the reaction of industry stakeholders trying to justify it.

Excerpt:

And to me that's why the California situation is so hard to handle even in the face of higher takeout in other jurisdictions (e.g. NYRA 26%, Fair Grounds 25%, etc.). To have a racetrack leader or industry regulator put public relations spin on something that is so obviously bad for the core product of racing has me more concerned for the future of this sport than anything I have ever encountered.



My sentiments exactly! :ThmbUp:

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Risk of ruin
By Ed DeRosa of Thoroughbred Times

http://blog-beb.thoroughbredtimes.com/2011/01/risk-of-ruin.html

Excerpt:

The most insulting aspect of California raising its takeout 2% on two-horse wagers and 3% on three (or more)-horse wagers was not the increase itself but the reaction of industry stakeholders trying to justify it.

Excerpt:

And to me that's why the California situation is so hard to handle even in the face of higher takeout in other jurisdictions (e.g. NYRA 26%, Fair Grounds 25%, etc.). To have a racetrack leader or industry regulator put public relations spin on something that is so obviously bad for the core product of racing has me more concerned for the future of this sport than anything I have ever encountered.

WTF goes on here?

Here's a guy who basically has said forever that takeout doesn't matter because all bettors are uneducated degenerates.

Now he says that it matters.
:confused:

My quote from him below in my sig line is him thinking that if takeout was AT LEAST 30%, nobody would stop betting.
:bang:

[andymays]

WTF goes on here?

Here's a guy who basically has said forever that takeout doesn't matter because all bettors are uneducated degenerates.

Now he says that it matters.
:confused:

My quote from him below in my sig line is him thinking that if takeout was AT LEAST 30%, nobody would stop betting.
:bang:

ITP, I send out emails on this stuff several times a week and have been for years. I specifically send them to journalists and others in the industry. Maybe it's my emails or maybe he just changed his position but whatever happened I appreciate it and it helps Horseplayers.

[MickJ26]

I would guess more than anything else is the time difference. If the former OTB folks are busing to Aqueduct, they're not going to stick around until the end of Santa Anita and then jump back on a bus to whatever corner of the world they're from. Most players want to cash their tickets immediately, not wait until the next day. Tampa Bay runs concurrently to Aqueduct and may be more of an instant gratification.

[toussaud]

So what do you think is going to happen when gulfstream opens wednesday and oaklawn after that?


what makes you think, that given the option all those people sitting out becuase of dirt, just wont' play gulfstream or oaklawn instead? especially when they both are flush with full fields race in and race out. I think it is BS btw, it's ovbious to everyone with a brain it's the boycott. Hawthorne goes from synth to dirt every winter yet they are up 8% Fair Grounds has just bumped purses 5%. Heck even turfway's on track handle is up. Everyone is doing okay expect for SA. It's the boycott stupid.

SA is cooked. People more than anything, over estimated the loyalty people have to one track.

[Saratoga_Mike]

So what do you think is going to happen when gulfstream opens wednesday and oaklawn after that?


what makes you think, that given the option all those people sitting out becuase of dirt, just wont' play gulfstream or oaklawn instead? especially when they both are flush with full fields race in and race out. I think it is BS btw, it's ovbious to everyone with a brain it's the boycott. Hawthorne goes from synth to dirt every winter yet they are up 8% Fair Grounds has just bumped purses 5%. Heck even turfway's on track handle is up. Everyone is doing okay expect for SA. It's the boycott stupid.

SA is cooked. People more than anything, over estimated the loyalty people have to one track.

Anyone with a brain would look at the PPs at SA and wait until there's dirt form for the horses in dirt races. Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend? I'm sure the boycott is a factor, but you definitively asserting it's just the boycott is absurd.

[cj]

Anyone with a brain would look at the PPs at SA and wait until there's dirt form for the horses in dirt races. Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend? I'm sure the boycott is a factor, but you definitively asserting it's just the boycott is absurd.

I originally thought it would be a big deal, but I'm not so sure. My own numbers have been great for the SA dirt, and I'm a little sorry I haven't been betting SA right now. I'm sure others can see the same things I have.

[andymays]

I originally thought it would be a big deal, but I'm not so sure. My own numbers have been great for the SA dirt, and I'm a little sorry I haven't been betting SA right now. I'm sure others can see the same things I have.

You have no idea. This is absolutely killing me. I'm not even making win bets. :(

[DeanT]

I'm sure others can see the same things I have.
Value will be gone soon one would expect. It'll look like late outside pace at a biased TP meet and $4.40 winners who are 4-1 on paper.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I originally thought it would be a big deal, but I'm not so sure. My own numbers have been great for the SA dirt, and I'm a little sorry I haven't been betting SA right now. I'm sure others can see the same things I have.

Again, I'm not saying it's the only factor, but I think it's a factor, even if synthetic numbers have worked well on the new dirt surface for the first week of the meet. One week isn't a trend, as you know well.

[The_Knight_Sky]

....but part of me would like to see a track try 30% takeout as a starting point to see how it affects business." ......Ed DeRosa (Thoroughbred Times Editor)




It seemed to me that he was trying to champion takeout reductions.

That 30% takeout remark was to make a point that "too high" takeouts
would have a similar effect that put Hialeah out of business for good.

Otherwise, I think Ed has a pretty good grasp of the math side
of the wagering business. More racing writers should - but they don't. :faint:

[Zman179]

It seemed to me that he was trying to champion takeout reductions.

That's how I read it too.

[JustRalph]

I originally thought it would be a big deal, but I'm not so sure. My own numbers have been great for the SA dirt, and I'm a little sorry I haven't been betting SA right now. I'm sure others can see the same things I have.

Gomez on that 19 dollar horse almost broke my spirit the other day.

I tweeted it the night before the race for all ten of my followers !!! :lol:

I am sitting on my hands though. They don't get a dime

[CincyHorseplayer]

I would guess more than anything else is the time difference. If the former OTB folks are busing to Aqueduct, they're not going to stick around until the end of Santa Anita and then jump back on a bus to whatever corner of the world they're from. Most players want to cash their tickets immediately, not wait until the next day. Tampa Bay runs concurrently to Aqueduct and may be more of an instant gratification.

Hasn't the time difference always been the same?Why is it meaningful now but wasn't relevant then?Have you been on a bus to Aqueduct??!!!You sly devil you!!

[Stillriledup]

Gomez on that 19 dollar horse almost broke my spirit the other day.

I tweeted it the night before the race for all ten of my followers !!! :lol:

I am sitting on my hands though. They don't get a dime

I'm proud of you. We have to outlast them, they'll crack before we do. We have other options, they don't.

[Southieboy]

Tampa: Near-record handle likely.

Santa Anita: Massive Purse Cut coming.

[The_Knight_Sky]

Santa Anita: Massive Purse Cut coming.




Wrong move :ThmbDown: again.

That won't bring back the bettors.

Nor will it address the field size issue.

[dansan]

I live in sacramento california went to play ponies sat found out they are shutting down the turf club been going there 20 years

[jelly]

I live in sacramento california went to play ponies sat found out they are shutting down the turf club been going there 20 years


Did they say why?

[dansan]

no bettors last day was sunday

[Bruddah]

I live in sacramento california went to play ponies sat found out they are shutting down the turf club been going there 20 years

The real reasons for SA downfall are all the issues previously mentioned by others, but now add the "California Economy". All these issues means Cali Racing can't breathe. No one issue is the cause, it's all the issues. It's like SA and Cali Racing has one big fur ball in its' throat.

[The_Knight_Sky]

It's like SA and Cali Racing has one big fur ball in its throat.




I view every meet in California as a cliffhanger in a Batman episode.

Will they be saved to race again?

Same Bat time - Same Bat channel. http://i51.tinypic.com/2hrhnoi.gif

[Bruddah]

We can all argue valid points on what's wrong with Cali Racing and Thorughbred Racing Nationwide. Each valid issue will vary in importance from track to track Nationwide.

Older players are dieing off, some are busting out, and the Industry doesn't know how to create new players. But the truth is management and ownerships condescending attitudes toward its' customers. Their decades of arrogant "F ckem and feed'um fish heads" over the years is catching up. The players are beginning to realize they are "mad as hell and not going to take it anymore".

[BlueShoe]

I live in sacramento california went to play ponies sat found out they are shutting down the turf club been going there 20 years
No otb at Cal Expo at all, or just the Club House section closing? Their web page is still up. Hard to imagine an area as large as Sacramento without a single otb facility.

[mountainman]

I thought it was impermissible-and I KNOW it's not pc-to say ANYthing negative about Tampa these days.

[Stillriledup]

We can all argue valid points on what's wrong with Cali Racing and Thorughbred Racing Nationwide. Each valid issue will vary in importance from track to track Nationwide.

Older players are dieing off, some are busting out, and the Industry doesn't know how to create new players. But the truth is management and ownerships condescending attitudes toward its' customers. Their decades of arrogant "F ckem and feed'um fish heads" over the years is catching up. The players are beginning to realize they are "mad as hell and not going to take it anymore".

You are right and i think on top of that, older players who don't use Computers, SAM machines or other technology are dying off and being replaced with a more tech savvy generation. Those younger players are very familiar with the internet and how to get info from it. The days of keeping takeout raises and other stuff secret are gone. While the comment that was made about only 1 percent of people caring about takeout might have been true in 1960, its not true today. And, as time goes on, it gets less true. That exec in California who uttered the words that only 1 percent of players care about takeout needs to realize this is 2011 and not 1960.

[DeanT]

That exec in California who uttered the words that only 1 percent of players care about takeout needs to realize this is 2011 and not 1960.

It was actually .1% (or one out of 1000) care about rake. But what's a decimal point :) http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2010/12/more-amazing-quotes.html

[DeanT]

I thought it was impermissible-and I KNOW it's not pc-to say ANYthing negative about Tampa these days.

I hope not, or those damn troublemakers at the Horseplayer club sure are in for a whoopin. This blog piece on Tampa got more hits than a Jersey Shore arrest episode.


http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2011/01/tampa-bay-downs-handle-is-on-fire.html

When people are moving to your track and handle is growing, as gambling expert Wil Cummings has said, there is pressure to 'sneak takeout increases into the mix'. In his report to racing back in 2003: "The industry fails to realize that when we raise takeouts $100 that is bet will not be $100 anymore." We doubt Tampa will do that, but it is something that can kill the good vibes.

Tampa Bay's signal fee is probably too high right now in terms of ADW handle maximization, and any move to increase it can absolutely clobber them, so that should be resisted.

We also hear from players (and this is a growing sentiment): "I will give them more time, but please ask them to lower WPS and Tri takes, as they are still too high." We agree. We respectfully urge Mr. Berube to consider that for next seasons takeout move. In a business that has lost half its handles in ten years, we all know now that slow groans can turn into loud roars (http://playersboycott.org/) over time, so we think it is time to nip that in the bud.

[Stillriledup]

It was actually .1% (or one out of 1000) care about rake. But what's a decimal point :) http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2010/12/more-amazing-quotes.html

ON NO HE DIDNT!

So, he's saying one TENTH of ONE percent?

That rounds off to zero. He's really saying that nobody cares about takeout.

Where's Bo Derek when you need her! :bang:

[arno]

The majority of former OTB patrons are not taking the bus to Aqueduct.
Their bets on S Cal races after the last race at NYRA are being missed by S. Cal.

Tampa Bay is not effected as their wasn't that much of a handle there from NYC OTB as they race same time as OTB players were playing their home track.

Most OTB players know their is NY, Cal, somewhere in the middle of the country, Chicago. Florida races in the winter and Monmouth is a nice place to visit on a summer weekend.

The other tracks they did not care about except when they had some extra money due to collecting in an early race in NY.

[mountainman]

I hope not, or those damn troublemakers at the Horseplayer club sure are in for a whoopin. This blog piece on Tampa got more hits than a Jersey Shore arrest episode.


http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2011/01/tampa-bay-downs-handle-is-on-fire.html

I'm missing your point Dean. The blog is a love letter. Perfume and all.

[Relwob Owner]

I'm missing your point Dean. The blog is a love letter. Perfume and all.


You have referenced Tampa a few times in a potentially negative light(I could be misreading and if so, apologize) and am curious to see if this is true and why.....I am being genuine here and really do want to hear your feedback.

I went to Tampa for the first time in a while Saturday. It was an eye opening experience, as everyone was friendly, it was well set up, relatively clean in most parts and the food in the dining room when we stopped there to eat was terrific.

Racing wise, I thought it was OK....the fields were good sized but many of them had the same high percentage trainers/jocks and it was sort of a game of betting whether thee horses would "fire" and "improve" or not....granted, it was one day so maybe the rest of the meet has been different.


Overall, a great day but I am interested to get your thoughts.

[mountainman]

You have referenced Tampa a few times in a potentially negative light(I could be misreading and if so, apologize) and am curious to see if this is true and why.....I am being genuine here and really do want to hear your feedback.

I went to Tampa for the first time in a while Saturday. It was an eye opening experience, as everyone was friendly, it was well set up, relatively clean in most parts and the food in the dining room when we stopped there to eat was terrific.

Racing wise, I thought it was OK....the fields were good sized but many of them had the same high percentage trainers/jocks and it was sort of a game of betting whether thee horses would "fire" and "improve" or not....granted, it was one day so maybe the rest of the meet has been different.


Overall, a great day but I am interested to get your thoughts.

No, I haven't made "several" mentions (negative or otherwise) of Tampa. I play the track infrequently, have never been there, and am thus unquailfied to give much of an opinion. My post was a tongue -in -cheek reference to Tampa's upward trend and the shower of praise it draws these days. I'm glad you had a nice experience there. And good luck.

[Relwob Owner]

No, I haven't made "several" mentions (negative or otherwise) of Tampa. I play the track infrequently, have never been there, and am thus unquailfied to give much of an opinion. My post was a tongue -in -cheek reference to Tampa's upward trend and the shower of praise it draws these days. I'm glad you had a nice experience there. And good luck.


Got it...my apologies for the off target inference and phrasing....should have said "a few"....I didnt get where the tongue in cheek was referencing but now do and agree to a certain extent. It does seem like Tampa Bay is en vogue and as I said in my post, I found the racing there to be decent gambling wise, but maybe not up to the praise you were referring to.

Thanks for the response and good luck to ya

[DeanT]

I'm missing your point Dean. The blog is a love letter. Perfume and all.

That's cool.

I believe that tracks who are doing some things that are positive, their story should be told (as long as the warts are brought up too). We have a lot negative happening in horse racing, and a lot of it is justified, but there is no reason not to accentuate the positive as well when it happens.

I'm happy a track like Tampa is getting some play - they lowered takeout in seven of the last nine years, and the the majority of patrons who visit the track say they are treated as well or better than anywhere in racing. That's saying something, so good for them.

[Charlie D]

That's cool.

I believe that tracks who are doing some things that are positive, their story should be told (as long as the warts are brought up too). We have a lot negative happening in horse racing, and a lot of it is justified, but there is no reason not to accentuate the positive as well when it happens.




I tend agree and i hope this accentuating the positive encourages them to continue fixing their broken down racing model.

[Charlie D]

We can all argue valid points on what's wrong with Cali Racing and Thorughbred Racing Nationwide. Each valid issue will vary in importance from track to track Nationwide.

Older players are dieing off, some are busting out, and the Industry doesn't know how to create new players. But the truth is management and ownerships condescending attitudes toward its' customers. Their decades of arrogant "F ckem and feed'um fish heads" over the years is catching up. The players are beginning to realize they are "mad as hell and not going to take it anymore".


The customers of the bakery will not buy stale bread Bruddah and horse racing is now finding this out imho..

[Horseplayersbet.com]

While Gulfstream caters to bettors, Santa Anita targets racers
http://www.lvrj.com/sports/while-gulfstream-caters-to-bettors-santa-anita-targets-racers-113063819.html
"We horseplayers might be dumb, but we're not stupid. I think, as a group, we are more discriminating than track managers are giving us credit for."

[mountainman]

That's cool.

I believe that tracks who are doing some things that are positive, their story should be told (as long as the warts are brought up too). We have a lot negative happening in horse racing, and a lot of it is justified, but there is no reason not to accentuate the positive as well when it happens.

I'm happy a track like Tampa is getting some play - they lowered takeout in seven of the last nine years, and the the majority of patrons who visit the track say they are treated as well or better than anywhere in racing. That's saying something, so good for them.

No argument from me. I was characterizing the blog, not criticizing it.