Dutrow news...

[Saratoga_Mike]

OZONE PARK, N.Y. – Trainer Richard Dutrow Jr. faces possible sanctions from the New York stewards after one of his horses tested positive for a banned substance following a race at Aqueduct on Nov. 20, according to the stewards.

“I have no idea what they’re up to,” Dutrow said. “I’ve been through this many times before. It’s all up to them, isn’t it?”

http://www.drf.com/news/dutrow-horse-tests-positive-undisclosed-medication

[goforgin]

“I have no idea what they’re up to,” Dutrow said. “I’ve been through this many times before. It’s all up to them, isn’t it?”

"We've been through this many times as well. But, we're not sure 'them' is?!?" -- GoForGin:6:

[joanied]

OhOh...not a good way for Dutrow to start a new year:faint:

[Mineshaft]

undisclosed substance? wtf?? why not just announce what he got caught for.

[joanied]

I thought the same thing...makes ya wonder, don't it:confused:

[Stillriledup]

"I've been through this many times before"

Being wrongly accused? :rolleyes:

[Robert Fischer]

has there ever been a modafinil positive yet ?

[therussmeister]

undisclosed substance? wtf?? why not just announce what he got caught for.

...and how much was in his system. We can't make any valid judgments without this information, and they almost never tell us. So we get all up-in-arms for what may be nothing - or may be something.

[joanied]

Coulda been one zillion of a nano gram of caffine, ya know what I mean? This is Dutrow and everyone wants to jump on him...
if this is anything serious, the headl;ines will come...until then, I'd guess it's such a tiny amount of something often found in samples, I ain't gonna pay any attention to it.
:faint:

[Stillriledup]

Coulda been one zillion of a nano gram of caffine, ya know what I mean? This is Dutrow and everyone wants to jump on him...
if this is anything serious, the headl;ines will come...until then, I'd guess it's such a tiny amount of something often found in samples, I ain't gonna pay any attention to it.
:faint:

Ask yourself THIS question. Why does everyone want to 'jump on him'?

[misscashalot]

Ask yourself THIS question. Why does everyone want to 'jump on him'?

Jealousy from the old school ties still in abundant like gray ghosts, adding nothing to the mix except confusion. Dutrows are hard working trainers who generate lots of handle. Why jealous instead of thankful? I don't know but they continue to hound him. Why did Lake leave?

[FenceBored]

Ask yourself THIS question. Why does everyone want to 'jump on him'?

Boyish good looks?


http://multimedia.heraldinteractive.com/images/2330f5f1a1_derb05012008.jpg
(http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://multimedia.heraldinteractive.com/images/2330f5f1a1_derb05012008.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/other_sports/horse_racing/view.bg%3Farticleid%3D1090937&usg=__NxeWtg0UNzaT_4S9T1QQD6GJtIQ=&h=275&w=315&sz=61&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=TcTWDsflWYoEpM:&tbnh=144&tbnw=165&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drichard%2Bdutrow%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%2 6client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1162%26bih%3D749%26tbs%3Disch: 1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=131&vpy=74&dur=3765&hovh=210&hovw=240&tx=154&ty=229&ei=oMUfTf7IFcX7lweCsrTKCw&oei=oMUfTf7IFcX7lweCsrTKCw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0)

[cj]

You tend to get picked on when you cheat.

[joanied]

Let's ask THIS question for now...what is the so called substance and what are the levels?

[cj]

Let's ask THIS question for now...what is the so called substance and what are the levels?

We'll find out, but this isn't exactly virgin territory for the man.

[therussmeister]

Ask yourself THIS question. Why does everyone want to 'jump on him'?

Because he wins too much is often the only reason necessary.

[cj]

Because he wins too much is often the only reason necessary.

I would think more likely it is because he has a long history of cheating.

[onefast99]

Coulda been one zillion of a nano gram of caffine, ya know what I mean? This is Dutrow and everyone wants to jump on him...
if this is anything serious, the headl;ines will come...until then, I'd guess it's such a tiny amount of something often found in samples, I ain't gonna pay any attention to it.
:faint:
And how much has this guy paid out for split samples? I am sure a small fortune!

[tucker6]

I would think more likely it is because he has a long history of cheating.
Doh!! Now you done ruined the thread CJ. How are we supposed to play a game of fantasyland if you go off spouting the truth?

[Robert Fischer]

:) LOL he knows the test is bogus, 'cause he only uses undetectable stuff!

[Robert Fischer]

Dutrow messed up when he admitted to the media that steroids are perfectly legal in our sport.

Then a month later he caught that clenbuterol overage, where you had the times and other media incorrectly saying clenbuterol was a steroid. "Dutrow faces steroid ban" So anyone half listening would think steroids are banned substances in horse racing (or the NYTIMEs sportswriters don't have internet to research a substance like clenbuterol...) Whether that was a case of making a mistake and doubling the dose of clenbuterol, or if it was punishment for talking about steroids to the media ... a high dose of clenbuterol can often be counterproductive.

[fmolf]

anyone that wins at a higher % than the average is going to be subjected to more intense scrutiny.This is a byproduct of success.Most if not all of todays "super trainers" have had their scuffles withthe stewards and racing commissions in various jurisdictions.One day i hope they nail all these.."what..me worry" guys and level the playing fields for all trainers and horseplayers.

[therussmeister]

I would think more likely it is because he has a long history of cheating.

People accuse J. C. Guerrero of cheating but I don't think he has ever had a positive. People accuse Jaimie Ness of cheating but he only had two for therapeutic medications at very low levels. Every trainer I can think of that has a win % above a certain amount has been accused of cheating. (I'm trying to pin down the exact win %, not certain yet.)

They say - not about horse racing, but life in general - that you haven't really made it big time until you have been accused of cheating.

[Turfway]

People accuse Jaimie Ness of cheating but he only had two for therapeutic medications at very low levels. Every trainer I can think of that has a win % above a certain amount has been accused of cheating. (I'm trying to pin down the exact win %, not certain yet.)

They say - not about horse racing, but life in general - that you haven't really made it big time until you have been accused of cheating.


2 for Ness you say? I'm gonna have to say you're wrong its more like 20 guess who the top 2 trainers with bad tests per start are? Yep Jamie Ness and Richard Dutrow. Christophe Clemente and Graham Motion 0 bad tests

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/04/sports/04racing.html?_r=2&ref=sports

[Saratoga_Mike]

People accuse J. C. Guerrero of cheating but I don't think he has ever had a positive. People accuse Jaimie Ness of cheating but he only had two for therapeutic medications at very low levels. Every trainer I can think of that has a win % above a certain amount has been accused of cheating. (I'm trying to pin down the exact win %, not certain yet.)

They say - not about horse racing, but life in general - that you haven't really made it big time until you have been accused of cheating.

Who says this? I've never heard anyone say this. Perhaps JCG is the greatest trainer in the world. If so, he should move his tack to NY where he would surely flourish and attract much better horses. Or perhaps he's been the luckiest guy in the world and his luck will soon end. Or....

Rick Dutrow...

According to the Association of Racing Commissioners International, Rick Dutrow has at least 72 previous rulings against him for a variety of violations since 1976. (Source: Paulick Report 6/25/08)

[cj]

People accuse J. C. Guerrero of cheating but I don't think he has ever had a positive. People accuse Jaimie Ness of cheating but he only had two for therapeutic medications at very low levels. Every trainer I can think of that has a win % above a certain amount has been accused of cheating. (I'm trying to pin down the exact win %, not certain yet.)

They say - not about horse racing, but life in general - that you haven't really made it big time until you have been accused of cheating.

Dutrow has not just been accused of cheating, he has been caught, fined, and suspended...many times.

[Turfway]

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3310/trainerlist.jpg

[joanied]

That's some list...why do they have Clements and Motion on there...they have zero under starts per med?
Anyway...maybe they need to just suspend/fine every trainer on that list...keep them all from training for 6 months or so...even though you can bet that with most of those violations, the amount of whatever drug is probably to teeny-tiny that it didn't even matter that is was in a horses system...just sayin'.

All I know is, IMO, it's time for the stewards, or whoever, to get really tough on violations...like we've all been saying everytime this topic comes up...high fines, long serious suspentions where a trainers horses cannot race from that barn (up to the owner to move them to another trainer), no ass't trainers allowed to race horses under that trainer, and also hold the owners ( at least partly responsible)...
you know the drill.

[Beachbabe]

That's some list...why do they have Clements and Motion on there...they have zero under starts per med?
Anyway...maybe they need to just suspend/fine every trainer on that list...keep them all from training for 6 months or so...even though you can bet that with most of those violations, the amount of whatever drug is probably to teeny-tiny that it didn't even matter that is was in a horses system...just sayin'.

All I know is, IMO, it's time for the stewards, or whoever, to get really tough on violations...like we've all been saying everytime this topic comes up...high fines, long serious suspentions where a trainers horses cannot race from that barn (up to the owner to move them to another trainer), no ass't trainers allowed to race horses under that trainer, and also hold the owners ( at least partly responsible)...
you know the drill.


For sure, Joannie.
The "assistant trainer" ruse is such a joke & so transparent it is almost laughable .....but too serious to be funny. :mad:

[Saratoga_Mike]

That's some list...why do they have Clements and Motion on there...they have zero under starts per med?Anyway...maybe they need to just suspend/fine every trainer on that list...keep them all from training for 6 months or so...even though you can bet that with most of those violations, the amount of whatever drug is probably to teeny-tiny that it didn't even matter that is was in a horses system...just sayin'.

All I know is, IMO, it's time for the stewards, or whoever, to get really tough on violations...like we've all been saying everytime this topic comes up...high fines, long serious suspentions where a trainers horses cannot race from that barn (up to the owner to move them to another trainer), no ass't trainers allowed to race horses under that trainer, and also hold the owners ( at least partly responsible)...
you know the drill.

To show you can race thousands of horses and not come back with a positive - ever. Personally, I think mistakes happen, but it seems like the trainers at the top of that list made more than one or two mistakes.

[TheGhostOfOscarB]

Word is , the defense will be the horse was kissed on the lips by Rudy Rodriguez.

[joanied]

For sure, Joannie.
The "assistant trainer" ruse is such a joke & so transparent it is almost laughable .....but too serious to be funny. :mad:

Indeed. Sometimes I think starting a petition of some sort...something from the racing fans/handicappers/maybe other industry people too...on line, stating some rules that need to be implimented, like the ass't trainer thing...maybe something like that would get 'their' attention.
I dunno, but something has to get done about this problem...in this freakin' lifetime:bang:

[Charlie D]

2 for Ness you say? I'm gonna have to say you're wrong its more like 20 guess who the top 2 trainers with bad tests per start are? Yep Jamie Ness and Richard Dutrow. Christophe Clemente and Graham Motion 0 bad tests

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/04/sports/04racing.html?_r=2&ref=sports


Just like the NYRA shows it doesn't need slots welfare to get people interested. Mr Clemente and Mr Motion show you don't need to break the rules to be a successful trainer of equine warriors.

[Turfway]

IMO they should share an eclipse award for "honest trainer of the year"

[joanied]

IMO they should share an eclipse award for "honest trainer of the year"

:ThmbUp: ...always thought honesty was the best policy...maybe not so much within the trainer ranks!!

Anyone have any late news on Dutrow?

[Relwob Owner]

:ThmbUp: ...always thought honesty was the best policy...maybe not so much within the trainer ranks!!

Anyone have any late news on Dutrow?


Hey JD-I am going to get out my crystal ball....

He will get suspended for a relatively short time
He will say it isnt worth the cost of fighting or make up some other reason not to fight it
He will hand off his horses to an assistant who has similar numbers while RD is out
No owners will leave him while he is suspended, which is strange because you would hope that owners would not want to be associated with a multiple offender like him
He will resume training as if nothing happened in the near future

[Tom]

Didn't he just lose two big owners?

[Relwob Owner]

Didn't he just lose two big owners?


Not sure....if he did, I would be surprised if it was because he blew a test but you never know, I guess.

[Robert Fischer]

Cheating is ok.

If you watch the NBA, try to think of a drug infraction kind of like a technical foul...

"We"(the game) can tolerate the supertrainers because it is a nice concession for the larger-churning players. The only thing we ask is that the supertrainers work with the syndicate that controls the majority of American racing. We aren't trying to have any new guns take money away from other good guys. Work together.

these guys ARE NOT getting unbelievable results because of overages of legal substances.(Example Rick Dutrow with the double-allowed clenbuterol from 2008 race). Sounds much more like a mistake, double-dose, who wants a sweated-out animal with the shakes?? Much more likely that these multiple overage-violations are simply a case of trainers giving their runners what they feel is a therapeutic dose within the limits, and if it gets a slight overage so what- its far worth it to address these runners problems and take the occasional tech than run a lower volume of races.

These guys are doing it with Steroids, Growth Hormone, and a VARIETY of other things. Other things that we don't test for, or detect - whether it be through highly-advanced work on the part of the cheaters, shortcomings in the test, or masking agents such as lasix.

When the baseball players messed up and drew a lot of negative attention to steroids - which happen to simply be a therapeutic drug for equine athletes(yea right!!!)- we had to put in a "Barry Bonds" rule.
The breeding industry leaders in the syndicate decided that the steroid rule would have two purposes



Appear to "ban" steroids to the most ignorant people
Provide geldings with a substantial disadvantage to colts and even fillies/mares

[Saratoga_Mike]

Cheating is ok.

If you watch the NBA, try to think of a drug infraction kind of like a technical foul...

"We"(the game) can tolerate the supertrainers because it is a nice concession for the larger-churning players. The only thing we ask is that the supertrainers work with the syndicate that controls the majority of American racing. We aren't trying to have any new guns take money away from other good guys. Work together.

these guys ARE NOT getting unbelievable results because of overages of legal substances. These guys are doing it with Steroids, Growth Hormone, and a VARIETY of other things. Other things that we don't test for or detect whether it be through highly-advanced work on the part of the cheaters, shortcomings in the test, or masking agents such as lasix.

When the baseball players messed up and drew a lot of negative attention to steroids - which happen to simply be a therapeutic drug for equine athletes!!!- we had to put in a Bonds rule.
The breeding industry leaders in the syndicate decided that the steroid rule would have two purposes

Appear to "ban" steroids to the most ignorant people
Provide geldings with a substantial disadvantage to colts and even fillies/mares


Your steroids talk doesn't make sense to me. Are you talking about anabolic steriods like Winstrol?

[Robert Fischer]

Your steroids talk doesn't make sense to me. Are you talking about anabolic steriods like Winstrol?

yes anabolic. Ask a question to clarify, and if I know the answer I'll share...

[Saratoga_Mike]

yes anabolic. Ask a question to clarify, and if I know the answer I'll share...

So you believe Winstrol is one of the main substances used by "supertrainers" to enhance performance?

[Tom]

Not sure....if he did, I would be surprised if it was because he blew a test but you never know, I guess.

He was interviewed by Byk the other day and they were talking about losing some nice horses - but I came in late on it.

I'll listen to the podcasts this weekend.

[Relwob Owner]

He was interviewed by Byk the other day and they were talking about losing some nice horses - but I came in late on it.

I'll listen to the podcasts this weekend.


Thanks Tom....if it was because of blowing the test or collateral damage, I will gladly declare my crystal ball as being off the mark:)

[Saratoga_Mike]

He was interviewed by Byk the other day and they were talking about losing some nice horses - but I came in late on it.

I'll listen to the podcasts this weekend.

Please post the info after you listen - I'd love to know the details (i.e., who's leaving him).

[Robert Fischer]

So you believe Winstrol is one of the main substances used by "supertrainers" to enhance performance?

I don't know for sure. Some of the steroids rules that I've read seemed to cap Winstrol pretty low for all runners. Testosterone is probably the most popular. Winstrol may not cause as much weight gain, but if I read the rules right they would need a masking agent.
It's also a urine test so not the most difficult thing to abide by.

The supertrainers use steroids on their runners. It's a great performance drug for horses, particularly if you don't care at all about the mid/long-term health effects. The horses gets faster and stronger and they eat way better and recover faster. Provided you don't cause an injury...

Geldings "need" therapeutic doses of steroids to be at a fair playing field. As I mentioned the breeding industry syndicate leaders influenced the steroids rules to allow therapuetic levels in geldings but cheat-levels in females - and in Colts there is no limit to the amount of testosterone that can be in their system(as long as they aren't going wild you pump them up recklessly).
It would be ugly to break down supertrainers who operate in these districts who only perform the magic with Colts and Females but seldom/never geldings.

The supertrainers who win very-quickly after a claim with amazing form reversals are NOT steroid guys(at least not there "go-to" move). Steroids cause gradual/moderately-quick improvement, not quick-instant.

Another thing with a drug like Winstrol - depending on the time it takes for horse to clear a urine test (remember they are also on diuretics and masking agents) something like Winstrol could be used between starts if that was important to the trainer.

Steroids aren't so much a race-day drug (although heavy steroid trainers will be sure big fella gets his testosterone on gameday) as they are a process.
Other drugs cause instant form reversals after dose1

[Saratoga_Mike]

The supertrainers who win very-quickly after a claim with amazing form reversals are NOT steroid guys(at least not there "go-to" move). Steroids cause gradual/moderately-quick improvement, not quick-instant.

Another thing with a drug like Winstrol - depending on the time it takes for horse to clear a urine test (remember they are also on diuretics and masking agents) something like Winstrol could be used between starts if that was important to the trainer.

Steroids aren't so much a race-day drug (although heavy steroid trainers will be sure big fella gets his testosterone on gameday) as they are a process.
Other drugs cause instant form reversals after dose1

Okay, I thought you were making the case that steriods were causing quick form reversals. Anyway, steroids dont give you that much of an edge.

You need to go 45 days for a test to be clean for steroids.

And Equipose is the stuff that will make a horse go nuts.

[FenceBored]

He was interviewed by Byk the other day and they were talking about losing some nice horses - but I came in late on it.

I'll listen to the podcasts this weekend.



Just listened to that part of the interview (http://thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/images/stories/audio/010411a.mp3) (starts at 41:30). They're talking about Rick Porter's horses which were moved to Larry Jones now that Jones has come out of retirement. Ned Evans is mentioned again later as being another owner Dutrow has lost, but they had already eulogized him at length earlier.

[Tom]

That was what I came in late for.
Did Dutrow sound kind of slow and dim-witted in his answers, or was it just me, but he sounded like he was answering questions to a District Attorney! :D
I didn't know who it was at first, but I remember thinking, "Steve - slap this boy and jump start him!"

[FenceBored]

That was what I came in late for.
Did Dutrow sound kind of slow and dim-witted in his answers, or was it just me, but he sounded like he was answering questions to a District Attorney! :D

He sounded better earlier, but he did turn a bit sour when Byk asked him how Joyful Victory was doing; not that I can blame him. Then Byk pointed out that he had decided earlier not to mention Havre de Grace (which you can't do without mentioning her), which made Dutrow's day.

[Robert Fischer]

Anyway, steroids dont give you that much of an edge.
Steroids give a big edge.

You need to go 45 days for a test to be clean for steroids. Colts can have as much testosterone injected into them as the trainer wants. There is no limit at all. They can do it on race day or any day they want. Fillies/Mares can have a fairly high amount on race day. Geldings can only have the "therapeutic amount".

[Saratoga_Mike]

Steroids give a big edge.
Colts can have as much testosterone injected into them as the trainer wants. There is no limit at all. They can do it on race day or any day they want. Fillies/Mares can have a fairly high amount on race day. Geldings can only have the "therapeutic amount".

I know from actual experience, you are mistaken.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Steroids give a big edge.

Colts can have as much testosterone injected into them as the trainer wants. There is no limit at all. They can do it on race day or any day they want. Fillies/Mares can have a fairly high amount on race day. Geldings can only have the "therapeutic amount".

You're mistaken here, too. You can't give a colt Equipose on race day (anyway, you wouldn't do that, as it would have no effect).

[FenceBored]

Just to clarify, the Dutrow that was on Steve Byk's show the other day talking about losing horses was Tony Dutrow, not Rick Dutrow. So, anything Tony said about Tony losing horses has nothing to do with Rick, or Rick's situation.

[Tom]

It was TONY Dutrow on with Steve Byk....not Rick.

[Robert Fischer]

You're mistaken here, too. You can't give a colt Equipose on race day (anyway, you wouldn't do that, as it would have no effect).

TESTOSTERONE

[Saratoga_Mike]

TESTOSTERONE

Still mistaken.

http://www.agriculture.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_24476_10297_0_43/AgWebsite/Files/Publications/Horse_Steriod_Policy_-_October.pdf

Please read rule 3B. If you could give as much as you wanted, it would never be an offense.

[tucker6]

Still mistaken.

http://www.agriculture.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_24476_10297_0_43/AgWebsite/Files/Publications/Horse_Steriod_Policy_-_October.pdf

Please read rule 3B. If you could give as much as you wanted, it would never be an offense.I feel like I'm witnessing a fight where one has a gun and the other has a knife. :D

[Robert Fischer]

this is getting too goofy
even for an internet site.

I make an informative post about what is going on and how these overages (techincal fouls) that guys like Dutrow will get once in a while aren't the move-up drugs.... i even 4give insi4g47ht into t7he politics involved wit7h the tolerance and the rules themselves... and n owner? appears out of the woodwork to tell me that steroids don't enhance performance and that I don't have my rules straight. Then we have tucker co-signing some rule from Pennsylfreakinvania :bang::bang::bang:


CALIFORNIA CHRB: "Testosterone at any level in males other than geldings is not a violation."
:bang::bang::bang::bang:
http://www.chrb.ca.gov/advisories/2008_05_12_advisory.pdf


NEW YORK NYRA: and testosterone, 20 ng/ml in geldings and
55 ng/ml in fillies and mares (*MY PARENTHETICAL NOTE = NO TESTOSTERONE LIMIT FOR COLTS LISTED IN NEW YORK)".
http://www.racing.state.ny.us/pdf/STEROIDSreleaseDec.18.pdf


KENTUCKY KHRC: 1. In geldings – 20 ng/ml in urine 2. In fillies and mares – 55 ng/ml in urine 3. Male horses: in amounts in excess of amounts existing naturally in the untreated horse at normal physiological concentrations. IN OT7HER WORDS WELL-ABOVE 55NG IS OK FOR COLTS AND WOULD HAVE TO BE MASSIVE AMOUNTS TO EVEN CONSIDER POLICING
http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/sourcefiles/AnabolicSteroidRegulationKY.pdf


NOT INTERESTED IN FURT7HER DISCUSSION(NOR IS T7HE KEYBOARD OBVIOUSLY)" ON T7HIS TOPIC PLEASE RE-READ T7HREAD AND ASK 4GOO4GLE :bang:

[Dahoss9698]

this is getting too goofy
even for an internet site.

I make an informative post about what is going on and how these overages (techincal fouls) that guys like Dutrow will get once in a while aren't the move-up drugs.... i even 4give insi4g47ht into t7he politics involved wit7h the tolerance and the rules themselves... and n owner? appears out of the woodwork to tell me that steroids don't enhance performance and that I don't have my rules straight. Then we have tucker co-signing some rule from Pennsylfreakinvania :bang::bang::bang:


CALIFORNIA CHRB: "Testosterone at any level in males other than geldings is not a violation."
:bang::bang::bang::bang:
http://www.chrb.ca.gov/advisories/2008_05_12_advisory.pdf


NEW YORK NYRA: and testosterone, 20 ng/ml in geldings and
55 ng/ml in fillies and mares (*MY PARENTHETICAL NOTE = NO TESTOSTERONE LIMIT FOR COLTS LISTED IN NEW YORK)".
http://www.racing.state.ny.us/pdf/STEROIDSreleaseDec.18.pdf


KENTUCKY KHRC: 1. In geldings – 20 ng/ml in urine 2. In fillies and mares – 55 ng/ml in urine 3. Male horses: in amounts in excess of amounts existing naturally in the untreated horse at normal physiological concentrations. IN OT7HER WORDS WELL-ABOVE 55NG IS OK FOR COLTS AND WOULD HAVE TO BE MASSIVE AMOUNTS TO EVEN CONSIDER POLICING
http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/sourcefiles/AnabolicSteroidRegulationKY.pdf


NOT INTERESTED IN FURT7HER DISCUSSION(NOR IS T7HE KEYBOARD OBVIOUSLY)" ON T7HIS TOPIC PLEASE RE-READ T7HREAD AND ASK 4GOO4GLE :bang:

Is this internet for "I was wrong"?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Is this internet for "I was wrong"?

Unfortunately he made another mistake - I've posted over 2,100 times. That isn't appearing out of the "woodwork," as he claimed. And as someone who grew up and cared for horses (standardbreds, though), I certainly would not know the first thing about horses. Let's stop all discussions once someone points out that RF made a mistake.

[Robert Fischer]

I was mistaken that you were asking genuine questions.

The links that I provided outline the rules for the major racing districts.
These Major racing districts were clearly the ones I was referring to regarding a Breeding industry.

Testosterone
There are many types of steroids. Four types are allowed. Testosterone (a very powerful "basic" steroid) is the main steroid allowed by major racing districts to promote the breeding industry (and in a smaller degree for this example to promote a certain distribution of training power).

Nandrolone
In some Major racing/breeding districts there is also an advantage promoted through alowing Colts more Nandrolone. This is not as significant as Testosterone. Steroids are often "stacked" to be used more effectively.

Equipoise is Boldenone.
In Califorinia Geldings are disallowed Equipose, but Colts can have 15 nanograms. Again this is a seperate and lesser advantage than Testosterone, and probably not utilized when natural occuring levels are considered.

Winstrol is Stanozolol
These steroids are not allowed in concentrations in many major racing/breeding districts.

Pennsylvania, while not a major racing/breeding district in the sense of Kentucky, New York, California, Florida etc... (and logically having less incentive to cater to the breeding industry) is interesting for the fact that they are NOT seeming to provide the steroid advantage to colts that major districts I was refering to are.
This is valuable knowledge if you seek to see the whole system in your handicapping. Note that 2000 picograms is the upward limit for testosterone in the Pennsylvania document you posted.

If 2000 picograms is the limit for PA in COLTS this implies the following:
= 2000 picograms is a little bit higher than what the colts have flowing through there system NATURALLY.

great to know.

NOW we must convert the unique standard that PA happens to use (Picograms) to the universal standard of the Major districts = (Nanograms).

A Nanogram is equal to one thousand Picograms
1ng = 1000pg

This means that COLTS shouldn't have more than 2 Nanograms of testosterone flowing through their Urine.

In KENTUCKY, the premium racing district, they are "very"(<sarcasm) strict. With FILLIES/MARES they allow 55NANOGRAMS or 55,000!PICOGRAMS!!! Remember PA. only allows 2Picograms for Colts.
IN COLTS there is no limit, but a vague warning, but obviously 55,000 and moderately higher is fine.
In NEW YORK there isn't a listed limit.
IN CALIFORNIA there is specifically a statement that says "THERE IS NO LIMIT". As if 55,000 Picograms isn't an absurdly high number(assuming the PA rules weren't BS), A Colt in california could have 200,000Picograms in his system and PASS the test for Testosterone.
Disgusting.

Hopefully this stuff enlightens somebody on the board. I don't give a S*** about some argument that had degenerated. This is for the members to get some insight if they hadn't had the chance to read through the rulebooks and were under the impression that Steroids were disallowed.

Now you also know about Geldings in the major race district.

I take a comprehensive approach with horseplaying. There is a danger of being too extensive and not concentrating on a single area, but I view things with respect to causality within a system. I don't believe in a lot of random "structure and causal relationships" within systems. Either that structure was formed by the players, or it was once random and now treated like a cash-cow.

So the apparent equality in Pennsylvania is not a red-herring, if true it actually provides possible trainer specific angles that can be exploited as horses are moved between districts.

There is another complicated factor in the Steroid mess - the "withdrawal time" thing where some trainers are allowed 90days of failing tests before the rules are applied to them, and I'll admit I am not sure how this applies to shippers yet, and whether a California horse shipping to a state like PA (see LOOKIN AT LUCKY) would have no steroid limits, or have to clear the strict 2 picogram rule.

Personally I'd like to see the limits much lower in the major racing districts.

:ThmbUp: good luck on football this weekend!

[Saratoga_Mike]

I was mistaken that you were asking genuine questions.

:ThmbUp: good luck on football this weekend!

I thought you had an angle on steroids as masking agents, so I was interested. I don't follow football really, but thanks.