SA opening day $11,707,300

[jelly]

SA opening day $11,707,300 rounded out,

34k crowd size.

[andymays]

Anyone have 2009 and 2010?

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I got $11,755,000 this year

$14,913,000 last year

[Saratoga_Mike]

Anyone have 2009 and 2010?

Remember 2009 had one extra race.

[alhattab]

Comps are tough given NY-based handle had to be crushed by no OTB, blizzard combo. Also off-the-turf. Mid-Atlantic probably close to a wash due to the weather this year and blackout last year. Even if you assume the card per-race average would have been bet on the 10th race total handle would've been down somewhere around 10% I think.

[k f]

If you go pool by pool from the charts, it's $12,349,882.

Compared to last year (assuming I didn't fatfinger anything):

Total: -19%
Total per race: -9.9%

WPS: -26%
WPS per race: -17.8%

Exotics: -14.9%
Exotics per race: -4.7%

Starters per race went from 9.8 to 9.7.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Remember 2009 had one extra race.

Yeah...adding in for an extra race, they were down about 14% I would estimate.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

If you go pool by pool from the charts, it's $12,349,882.

Compared to last year (assuming I didn't fatfinger anything):

total handle is printed on the charts

http://www.equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/SA122610USA.pdf

[andymays]

Yeah...adding in for an extra race, they were down about 14% I would estimate.

Wow!

[Saratoga_Mike]

Comps are tough given NY-based handle had to be crushed by no OTB, blizzard combo. Also off-the-turf. Mid-Atlantic probably close to a wash due to the weather this year and blackout last year. Even if you assume the card per-race average would have been bet on the 10th race total handle would've been down somewhere around 10% I think.

I think a decent adjusted number is 13.5 mm for last yr, so I agree with you down 10% to 12%. Maybe it was just the snow.

[jelly]

Anyone know crowd size last year?

[lamboguy]

they certainly fooled me, they did alot better than what i expected, i bet a friend of mine $5 that they would be down 37% and they only come in down 22%. they did a good job, the chrb should be commended for this fine effort!

[Stillriledup]

they certainly fooled me, they did alot better than what i expected, i bet a friend of mine $5 that they would be down 37% and they only come in down 22%. they did a good job, the chrb should be commended for this fine effort!

Great Job by CHRB!! :jump:

[jelly]

they certainly fooled me, they did alot better than what i expected, i bet a friend of mine $5 that they would be down 37% and they only come in down 22%. they did a good job, the chrb should be commended for this fine effort!




I was expecting it to be down 68% :rolleyes:

[Stillriledup]

Maybe the Clippers playing at home today affected handle, after all, the Clippers are competing with the Great Race place for customers!

:cool:

[peislander]

What if you compare the numbers to the last Santa Anita opening day on dirt?

[Saratoga_Mike]

What if you compare the numbers to the last Santa Anita opening day on dirt?

That would be ugly.

[k f]

total handle is printed on the charts

http://www.equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/SA122610USA.pdf

Right, but the sum of all the pools listed in the charts is greater than that figure. Which is also the case for last year's opening day at SA and every other chart I've taken the time to add up. I have no idea which number is actually correct but I went with the sum of the individual pools for both years in order to get a comparison between individual bet types.

[DeanT]

Anyone know crowd size last year?

Down 3%.

I am honestly kind of shocked. Reading a lot of the blogs, listening to Andy and others who have their pulse on the barometer there, there was some huge numbers predicted by some. I had an email predicting 'if they dont beat 15M he will eat his shirt'. Steve D on his piece spoke of opening day and waiting so the boycott folks dont look bad. On and on. Opening day this year was made out to be a huge deal out there this year.

I am pretty surprised - honestly very surprised. I know the inter state numbers were poor because of weather, but in all honestly it looks a lot worse than that out there for CA today. I know of a lot of players who have not played a dime in CA for awhile (since they passed the increase), and I think maybe there might be more out there.

JMO. We'll see the final numbers I guess and we can all make our own judgments.

[andymays]

You guys do some pretty good work getting out the numbers. I appreciate it. :ThmbUp:

[andymays]

Down 3%.

I am honestly kind of shocked. Reading a lot of the blogs, listening to Andy and others who have their pulse on the barometer there, there was some huge numbers predicted by some. I had an email predicting 'if they dont beat 15M he will eat his shirt'. Steve D on his piece spoke of opening day and waiting so the boycott folks dont look bad. On and on. Opening day this year was made out to be a huge deal out there this year.

I am pretty surprised - honestly very surprised. I know the inter state numbers were poor because of weather, but in all honestly it looks a lot worse than that out there for CA today. I know of a lot of players who have not played a dime in CA for awhile (since they passed the increase), and I think maybe there might be more out there.

JMO. We'll see the final numbers I guess and we can all make our own judgments.

It's shocking. There is no other way to describe it. The unofficial boycott started today and was successful. That's the bottom line.

[Stillriledup]

Down 3%.

I am honestly kind of shocked. Reading a lot of the blogs, listening to Andy and others who have their pulse on the barometer there, there was some huge numbers predicted by some. I had an email predicting 'if they dont beat 15M he will eat his shirt'. Steve D on his piece spoke of opening day and waiting so the boycott folks dont look bad. On and on. Opening day this year was made out to be a huge deal out there this year.

I am pretty surprised - honestly very surprised. I know the inter state numbers were poor because of weather, but in all honestly it looks a lot worse than that out there for CA today. I know of a lot of players who have not played a dime in CA for awhile (since they passed the increase), and I think maybe there might be more out there.

JMO. We'll see the final numbers I guess and we can all make our own judgments.


I think weather has very little to do with it. People who want to get bets down, find ways to get bets down. Very little can actually stop a person who seriously wants to bet Santa Anita's opening day card.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

For the corresponding Sunday last year (which was the 27th), Tampa Bay did $3,067,590. Today they did $4,762,165. So I have a hard time blaming the simulcast weather.

[Saratoga_Mike]

What if you compare the numbers to the last Santa Anita opening day on dirt?

Tues, Dec 26, 2006 - total handle approx $15 mm for NINE races.

[Saratoga_Mike]

For the corresponding Sunday last year (which was the 27th), Tampa Bay did $3,067,590. Today they did $4,762,165. So I have a hard time blaming the simulcast weather.

Good pt HPB.

[The_Knight_Sky]

For the corresponding Sunday last year (which was the 27th), Tampa Bay
did $3,067,590. Today they did $4,762,165.

So I have a hard time blaming the simulcast weather.


Good stuff :ThmbUp:
Mr. Paulick reveals "lowest opening day since 1995".

But excuses will be made.
Only time will tell that this was a horrific mistake.

The goal for the boycotters should remain:
lowering of California takeout rates to what they once were ...

...and promises of further reductions when the customers return. ;)

[Stillriledup]

FWIW, Meadowlands was open for Simulcasting today until 6pm Eastern Time.

[andymays]

Mr. Paulick reveals "lowest opening day since 1995".

But excuses will be made.
Time will tell that this was a horrific mistake.

The goal for the boycotters should remain:
lowering of California takeout rates to what they once were ...
...and promises of further reductions when the customers return. ;)
Where do you see that? I'm looking at the front page right now.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Mr. Paulick reveals "lowest opening day since 1995".

But excuses will be made.
Time will tell that this was a horrific mistake.

The goal for the boycotters should remain:
lowering of California takeout rates to what they once were ...
...and promises of further reductions when the customers return. ;)
If the takeout does get rescinded, December 26th should be renamed National Horseplayers Day.

[Saratoga_Mike]

FWIW, Meadowlands was open for Simulcasting today until 6pm Eastern Time.

Tell me you called them!

[alhattab]

For the corresponding Sunday last year (which was the 27th), Tampa Bay did $3,067,590. Today they did $4,762,165. So I have a hard time blaming the simulcast weather.

Really tough to compare. Aqueduct ran on 12/27 and not on comparable date this year, which had to boost Tampa Bay. Also Philly canceled after 2 races today.

[Stillriledup]

Tell me you called them!

i did, lol. I called and the woman on the recorded message said they are closing at 6! :lol:

[Saratoga_Mike]

If the takeout does get rescinded, December 26th should be renamed National Horseplayers Day.

Any theory on why WPS wagering got hit more than exotics??? After all, they're raising prices on exotics on 1/1, not the WPS.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Really tough to compare. Aqueduct ran on 12/27 and not on comparable date this year, which had to boost Tampa Bay. Also Philly canceled after 2 races today.
That should have been great for California, no?

[Saratoga_Mike]

i did, lol. I called and the woman on the recorded message said they are closing at 6! :lol:

that's priceless.

[andymays]

People are just pissed off at the leadership of California Racing. More people are aware of what happened here than ever before.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Any theory on why WPS wagering got hit more than exotics??? After all, they're raising prices on exotics on 1/1, not the WPS.
I think a lot of nervous nellies weren't too keen on making big bets with the surface change. Just a guess.
And many players bet both WPS and exotics. If a pissed off player doesn't buy the past performances, they won't bet either.

[The_Knight_Sky]

Where do you see that? I'm looking at the front page right now.



Under my comment at
Takeout got you down?

#63 about 23 mins ago by Ray Paulick Let me take a spin and spinning.

Takeout down significantly. A quick glance shows it to be lowest since 1995. Here's my spin:

I'm pretty sure he meant handle down signficantly. ;)

[alhattab]

That should have been great for California, no?

I wouldn't think so. Different time slot. When I go to Monmouth for simulcasts there could be a ton of people there between 1 and 4 then the place clears out pretty quickly, even if a big day in California. Meadowlands was the same way when I used to go there. I can't say for sure, but I imagine NY is similar.

[andymays]

Under my comment at
Takeout got you down?

#63 about 23 mins ago by Ray Paulick Let me take a spin and spinning.

Takeout down significantly. A quick glance shows it to be lowest since 1995. Here's my spin:

I'm pretty sure he meant handle down signficantly. ;)

There is going to be no way to spin this. They need to make a decision and cut a deal.

[The_Knight_Sky]

FWIW, Meadowlands was open for Simulcasting today
until 6pm Eastern Time.




What time did Monmouth Park close the teletheater today?

That region got hit even harder with the snow.

[Stillriledup]

What time did Monmouth Park close the teletheater today?

That region got hit even harder with the snow.

That i'm not sure about, i just called the Meadowlands main number and heard the recorded message. Let me call Monmouth and see if they have any recorded messages that can tell us anything.

Ok, i called Monmouth and got the recorded message, they said if its an emergency, you can press 4 for security. Maybe Security knows?

Is this an emergency guys? :lol:

[andymays]

http://www.drf.com/news/more-34000-attend-opener-handle-dips-2009

Excerpt:

The all-sources handle of $11,707,276 was a drop of 23.6 percent compared to 2009. The figure includes betting ontrack, at satellite locations through California and the nation, and through account-wagering outlets. Sunday’s ontrack handle was $3,851,594, a decline of 15 percent from the 2009 ontrack handle.

[toussaud]

wow


great job

the anticipation, all the commercials, interviews, articles, even with the weather should have at the very least beat last year, which all things considered wasn't that spectacular, and this was worse.

I expected it to be high and go down. it's going to be low and go down.

[The_Knight_Sky]

a drop of 23.6 percent compared to 2009.



Brutal!

HANA should have started today as Day 1 for the boycott. :lol:

[Saratoga_Mike]

wow


great job

the anticipation, all the commercials, interviews, articles, even with the weather should have at the very least beat last year, which all things considered wasn't that spectacular, and this was worse.

I expected it to be high and go down. it's going to be low and go down.

If field sizes don't get smaller, which would be counter to historical trends (I'm told by the Cali experts on here), I could see the numbers getting a little better as horses show more dirt form.

[toussaud]

Brutal!

HANA should have started today as Day 1 for the boycott. :lol:


that's something else too

for the people that want to talk about about the weather, this or that..

the boycott wasn't even supposed to start today. wait until janurary 6th or so. gonna get ugly.

[andymays]

Brutal!

HANA should have started today as Day 1 for the boycott. :lol:

The unofficial boycott has already beat them. There is no other way to spin it.

[toussaud]

wow


great job

the anticipation, all the commercials, interviews, articles, even with the weather should have at the very least beat last year, which all things considered wasn't that spectacular, and this was worse.

I expected it to be high and go down. it's going to be low and go down.

If field sizes don't get smaller, which would be counter to historical trends (I'm told by the Cali experts on here), I could see the numbers getting a little better as horses show more dirt form.
socal is really the only circut i play.

you won't see fields like today until big cap day when they run the kilroe mile, etc and again on derby day.

go look at wednesdays entries. that's your norm even for the great race place.

[The_Knight_Sky]

socal is really the only circut i play.




The bulk of my simulcasting action (60%) goes to NorCal and SoCal.
Today it got $0 total.

I want to support them.
But they must do the right thing. We're not seeing that.
Horse racing customers are not the problem in California thoroughbred racing.

[chickenhead]

attendance down 3%, on track handle down 15%.

Not to worry, they are in the entertainment bizness, not the gambling business. So they probably aren't that worried, only down 3%.

More importantly, how were concessions? They sell any big fingers, or Pletcher jerseys?

[andymays]

attendance down 3%, on track handle down 15%.

Not to worry, they are in the entertainment bizness, not the gambling business. So they probably aren't that worried, only down 3%.

More importantly, how were concessions?

Yes, David Israel attracted a lot of people who went for the entertainment and not to gamble. :lol: :bang:

[Horseplayersbet.com]

attendance down 3%, on track handle down 15%.

Not to worry, they are in the entertainment bizness, not the gambling business. So they probably aren't that worried, only down 3%.

More importantly, how were concessions? They sell any big fingers, or Pletcher jerseys?
I think they are blaming HANNAH, the woman that was in that mermaid movie.

[turfnsport]

As seen on serialhorseplayer.com
http://www.serialhorseplayer.com/images/adbanner1.gif

[Charlie D]

11 million suggests there are a lot more addicts and idiots(mullins) than i thought.

[toussaud]

11 million suggests there are a lot more addicts and idiots(mullins) than i thought.
there were 35k people out there, that whole area is too huge to just completely fall off a map. 11 million is more than enough dip.

[Beachbabe]

I think weather has very little to do with it. People who want to get bets down, find ways to get bets down. Very little can actually stop a person who seriously wants to bet Santa Anita's opening day card.


True that !! I'm reading about closed otb's because of the storm, but, and I'm just guessing here, are OTB's where most people go to make a wager. I mean, everyone here has a computer & some kind of access to a ADW. For Cal or anyone to blame a snowstorm in the East for their poor handle, i.m.o. is a bit ridiculous. If anything, just the fact that NYRA is not conducting racing this week should have been enough to pump up handles.
How much do you think "action" on the pro football games today was affected by storms in the Northeast.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Last year they didn't even have the Mid Atlantic Co-op taking their signal.

[andymays]

Sunday’s ontrack handle was $3,851,594, a decline of 15 percent from the 2009 ontrack handle.

[Stillriledup]

True that !! I'm reading about closed otb's because of the storm, but, and I'm just guessing here, are OTB's where most people go to make a wager. I mean, everyone here has a computer & some kind of access to a ADW. For Cal or anyone to blame a snowstorm in the East for their poor handle, i.m.o. is a bit ridiculous. If anything, just the fact that NYRA is not conducting racing this week should have been enough to pump up handles.
How much do you think "action" on the pro football games today was affected by storms in the Northeast.

Not too much. People who bet football are interested in a 5% takeout rate, not 23 point something.

[Stillriledup]

Last year they didn't even have the Mid Atlantic Co-op taking their signal.

Interesting.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Sunday’s ontrack handle was $3,851,594, a decline of 15 percent from the 2009 ontrack handle.

So probably down 5% to 7% adjusting for nine races vs ten last yr.

[alhattab]

Only the Blood-Horse could possibly come up with that headline

[toussaud]

They will find a way to spin the headline regardless of what happens, because they think it's in their best interest to win the media war on this, to spin it as successful. Bloodhorse/drf/tbtimes are going to tote the industry line.

But I assure you, the people who need to care, aren't happy. Rather they admit it or not.

[A. Pineda]

Sunday’s ontrack handle was $3,851,594, a decline of 15 percent from the 2009 ontrack handle.
Do you think the decrease might have had something to do with players waiting to get a handle on the new surface, vis-a-vis the par times, since attendance was only down 3%?

[toussaud]

Do you think the decrease might have had something to do with players waiting to get a handle on the new surface, vis-a-vis the par times, since attendance was only down 3%?
you act like it's plaster or something lol, it's freaking dirt.



But, let's say hypothetically say, that that really is the issue.

Why would you raise the takeout, when people are trying to get a handle on your new surface? I would think that's the one time you don't need to raise takeout.

[Rapid Grey]

Do you think the decrease might have had something to do with players waiting to get a handle on the new surface, vis-a-vis the par times, since attendance was only down 3%?

Probably had the bigger players on the sidelines for a few races. Other factors to include are starting on Sunday instead of Saturday (NFL anyone?), East coast weather, and 9 races instead of 10.

Two races were taken off the turf as well with the handle on the Sir Beaufort barely half what it was last year, and that doesn't even factor in the multi-race wagers.

[andymays]

Handle drops significantly in Santa Anita opener Paulick Report

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/handle-drops-significantly-in-santa-anita-opener/#PageComment_41490

[andymays]

Do you think the decrease might have had something to do with players waiting to get a handle on the new surface, vis-a-vis the par times, since attendance was only down 3%?

Some players waited to see how it played I'm sure but the drop in handle on and off track is stunning. It's hard for me to believe.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Only the Blood-Horse could possibly come up with that headline
I thought you were joking. Did Blood-Horse get taken over by Pravda?
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/60477/successful-opening-day-for-santa-anita

[toussaud]

The real telling figure to me, when you tie it all together is attendance for "the most anticipated meet in recent memory" dropped 3%. That goes more along the theory that people, just are pissed off. You can't spin that with east coast poor rather, or the football games, the raiders and the 49ers suck. The lakers did not play today. With no racing since april 10th, and dirt for the first time since april 2007, they had all the makings of a 40k attendance mark, at least. I'm quite sure, that's what they expected.

[toussaud]

I thought you were joking. Did Blood-Horse get taken over by Pravda?
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/60477/successful-opening-day-for-santa-anita
:lol: they just took the we are going to not mention anything else and throw some big numbers at them route lol.

[anotherCAfan]

...and promises of further reductions when the customers return. ;)
I hope the customers would return!


I want the takeout to be lowered, but I also want to see more people betting CA racing when/if it happens.


I know some people, that have nothing to do with the takeout increase, who are going to be hurting as jobs are cut. It's sad. The leadership, etc., in CA are to blame.

[andymays]

I hope the customers would return!


I want the takeout to be lowered, but I also want to see more people betting CA racing when/if it happens.


I know some people, that have nothing to do with the takeout increase, who are going to be hurting as jobs are cut. It's sad. The leadership, etc., in CA are to blame.

Yes, the leadership of California Horse Racing Board, the Track Executives, and the TOC are to blame for sure.

[lamboguy]

we should all look at the bright side of this, the track had no problem at all holding all the rain that dropped. their handle is not down because of any boycott, its just pretty boring out there, and most people are pretty fed up with the shananagans that go on with administration procedures out there. meanwhile i am told that berube in tampa is jumping for joy so far this year with gains they are making with handles and attendance. tampa maiden special weight purses are $20k and that is for florida breds. the day to day purses are pretty low in tampa, they are selling weather and a great track to train over and improve your horses, along with strong competitive fields that are ususally pretty full. i wonder if the folks in california can copy that plan? by the way, berube don't put up with any crap from anyone, they catch you doing something wrong, you won't get stalls next year. i can't believe all the top outfits in that place that are stabled there. that place is a recipe for success.

[Stillriledup]

They will find a way to spin the headline regardless of what happens, because they think it's in their best interest to win the media war on this, to spin it as successful. Bloodhorse/drf/tbtimes are going to tote the industry line.

But I assure you, the people who need to care, aren't happy. Rather they admit it or not.

Buncha spinners over there at BH and DRF.

[David-LV]

I put a lot of money thru the windows betting Tampa today that would normally be played at Santa Anita.

I will not bet one single dime at Santa Anita until they rescind these major increases in the takeout.

These people are complete fools that have zero knowledge on how to built handle.

Good luck to them because they are going to need it. I know that I am not alone as all of my friends feel the same as I do.

If they think handle was down today, just wait until the 5 & 6 horse fields come back.

__________
David-LV

[jelly]

Is Bagdad Bob working at the Bloodhorse?

[teddy]

I didnt bet due to feeling lost with the surface switch. Betting with bad data. I think alot of us cant bet till we see some real races. Give this 6 weeks so we can see 2 or 3 races and recheck.

[highnote]

Does anyone know the correlation between attendence and handle? Intuitively, I would think think the relationship is one to one.

So if attendence was down 4% at SA this year then handle should have only fallen by 4%, too. However, handle was down almost 24%

Can it be the case that a 4% decrease in attendence results in a 24% decrease in handle?

That doesn't seem likely. What happened to the other 20%?

Some could be attributed to east coast weather. Some could be attributed to new surface. Some could be attributed to the economy.

But 20%? That must mean the biggest drop came from off-track sources.

So why weren't the OTB and online handicappers betting?

[toussaud]

Does anyone know the correlation between attendence and handle? Intuitively, I would think think the relationship is one to one.

So if attendence was down 4% at SA this year then handle should have only fallen by 4%, too. However, handle was down almost 24%

Can it be the case that a 4% decrease in attendence results in a 24% decrease in handle?

That doesn't seem likely. What happened to the other 20%?

Some could be attributed to east coast weather. Some could be attributed to new surface. Some could be attributed to the economy.

But 20%? That must mean the biggest drop came from off-track sources.

So why weren't the OTB and online handicappers betting?


here is the better question

why SHOULD they be wagering?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Does anyone know the correlation between attendence and handle? Intuitively, I would think think the relationship is one to one.

So if attendence was down 4% at SA this year then handle should have only fallen by 4%, too. However, handle was down almost 24%

Can it be the case that a 4% decrease in attendence results in a 24% decrease in handle?

That doesn't seem likely. What happened to the other 20%?
?

On-track handle was down 15%, not 24% - that's the number you want to look at if you're comparing it to attendance figures. In addition, you need to adjust for the extra race from last yr, so I think it's fair to say on-track handle was down 5% to 7%.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

On-track handle was down 15%, not 24% - that's the number you want to look at if you're comparing it to attendance figures. In addition, you need to adjust for the extra race from last yr, so I think it's fair to say on-track handle was down 5% to 7%.
Two years ago, handle was over $15 million with 9 races. But then again, it was on an artificial surface :p

[Fager Fan]

Buncha spinners over there at BH and DRF.

Lots of them here too.

Last year on this date there was a Zenyatta retirement party at SA, weather in CA and the East coast played havoc today, the OTBs are closed in NY, among other possible reasons already mentioned for a small decline.

It might be a little early to start the back-patting.

[DeanT]

Lots of them here too.

Last year on this date there was a Zenyatta retirement party at SA, weather in CA and the East coast played havoc today, the OTBs are closed in NY, among other possible reasons already mentioned for a small decline.

It might be a little early to start the back-patting.

Small decline? 23.6% is small? What's big?

I do not see one iota of "back patting". All I see is a lot of people a little shocked the opening day (which was rumored to be a huge handle day this season from those in CA racing) was down by 23.6%.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Two years ago, handle was over $15 million with 9 races. But then again, it was on an artificial surface :p

wasn't making the case for celebration, just adjusting for the number of races

[Saratoga_Mike]

Small decline? 23.6% is small? What's big?

I do not see one iota of "back patting". All I see is a lot of people a little shocked the opening day (which was rumored to be a huge handle day this season from those in CA racing) was down by 23.6%.

Again (for the 10th time), please adjust for the extra race from last yr. It's disingenious to say handle was down 24% without that caveat. Shame on you Dean.

[chickenhead]

FsqJFIJ5lLs

[DeanT]

Again (for the 10th time), please adjust for the extra race from last yr. It's disingenious to say handle was down 24% without that caveat. Shame on you Dean.

Please.

The drf reported that. After doing a regression we will come up with the exact number. It will probably be 14-18% or something.

Why is it shame on me, while the Los Alamitos people (eg people who run this sport) get a pass from everyone for comparing apples to oranges? Direct your smackdown where it matters please, or at least with the same verve.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Please.

The drf reported that. After doing a regression we will come up with the exact number. It will probably be 14-18% or something.

Why is it shame on me, while the Los Alamitos people (eg people who run this sport) get a pass from everyone for comparing apples to oranges? Direct your smackdown where it matters please, or at least with the same verve.

First, I was just kidding with you on the "shame on you" part. I think you need to subtract $1.4 mm from the yr-ago number, but I have too many numbers written down now to keep track.

[DeanT]

First, I was just kidding with you on the "shame on you" part. I think you need to subtract $1.4 mm from the yr-ago number, but I have too many numbers written down now to keep track.

Sorry. Too many emails to answer lately. I think my mind has turned to porcupine. Lucky I didnt play today. Could have been carnage.

[chickenhead]

Again (for the 10th time), please adjust for the extra race from last yr. It's disingenious to say handle was down 24% without that caveat. Shame on you Dean.

Please adjust for the Mid-Atlantic co-op not carrying Cali last year. Then it's more than 23%, more like 28%. And then adjust back some the other way for snow back East. So maybe it's 22%, really. And then adjust back the other way, since Tampa did great. So maybe its 29%. And cross reference all the major sports and TV schedules, as well. So maybe only 26%. And then adjust for how many races, so maybe 12%.

It was their worst handle opening in what, 15 years? Beyond that, it's anyones guess as to what it would have been, some other day, under some other circumstances. All anyone knows is that it was horrendous, compared to pretty much any other year in recent history.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Please adjust for the Mid-Atlantic co-op not carrying Cali last year. Then it's more than 23%, more like 28%. And then adjust back some the other way for snow back East. So maybe it's 22%, really. And then adjust back the other way, since Tampa did great. So maybe its 29%. And cross reference all the major sports and TV schedules, as well. So maybe only 26%. And then adjust for how many races, so maybe 12%.

It was their worst handle opening in what, 15 years? Beyond that, it's anyones guess as to what it would have been, some other day, under some other circumstances. All anyone knows is that it was horrendous, compared to pretty much any other year in recent history.

But then we have to consider people on the East Coast who bet at simulcast outlets knew the snow was coming, so they doubled down on Tampa and ignored SA. So you need to add part of the Tampa increase to the SA handle. Okay, I'm joking. Wasn't a very good day for SA.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Please adjust for the Mid-Atlantic co-op not carrying Cali last year. Then it's more than 23%, more like 28%. And then adjust back some the other way for snow back East. So maybe it's 22%, really. And then adjust back the other way, since Tampa did great. So maybe its 29%. And cross reference all the major sports and TV schedules, as well. So maybe only 26%. And then adjust for how many races, so maybe 12%.

It was their worst handle opening in what, 15 years? Beyond that, it's anyones guess as to what it would have been, some other day, under some other circumstances. All anyone knows is that it was horrendous, compared to pretty much any other year in recent history.
Don't forget that the Oakland Raiders, Santa Anita's main competition, don't suck this year.

[dansan]

their quarterback does

[jelly]

Steve Andersen from DRF spins It.


The track drew an ontrack crowd of 34,268, a decline of 4 percent over a Saturday opening in 2009, but an increase over the opening days in the three previous years. Track president George Haines said Sunday’s crowd was held down by early morning rains.




Sunday’s ontrack crowd was 7.5 percent higher than the 2004 opening, the last on a Sunday. Santa Anita has opened its winter-spring meeting on Dec. 26 annually since 1977. Sunday’s crowd was 4 percent higher than the 2006 opener, which came on a Tuesday; 14 percent higher than 2007, on a Wednesday; and 3 percent higher than 2008’s opening day, on a Friday. :lol:

[turfnsport]

An explanation of takeout decrease via Dwelt A. Start. I'm starting to think he is more trustworthy than Paulick.

Top Ten Reasons Santa Anita Handle Was Down 23.6% on Opening Day
http://www.serialhorseplayer.com/

http://www.serialhorseplayer.com/images/takeout1.jpg

[Alex D]

You guys are being unfair.

Off the turf kills them. The Sir Beaufort is a great turf race every year and it was scratched down to 5 starters with a 1-5 shot. That takes a great betting race and turns it into an unbettable race. That race alone was off $700,000 from last year's edition. That and the one less race already account for more than $2 million of the $3 million decline.

The rest can easily be attributed to horrible weather all across the east coast. But whatever, if many of you want to ignore the facts who can say anything.

[highnote]

here is the better question

why SHOULD they be wagering?


That is a good question. What has SA done to make horseplayers want to bet their product?

It's not any better than last year, is it?

In fact, due to takeout, it's actually worse than last year, all else being equal, right?

Reminds me of something Warren Buffett said, "Price is what you pay. Value is what you get."

Are horseplayers getting better value or worse value for the price of playing?

If the answer is worse value for higher price then handle will decrease.

That's a concept so simple that any track manager should be able to understand it.

[Charlie D]

Well there you go. If Alex D is correct or close

David Israel and his chums are giving each other high fives, dancing like Zen and planning on more entertainment for thier fans.

edit to add

Mr Finley, Mr Mullins. Take a bow imho as it seems you are both bang on the money.

[chickenhead]

You guys are being unfair.

Off the turf kills them. The Sir Beaufort is a great turf race every year and it was scratched down to 5 starters with a 1-5 shot. That takes a great betting race and turns it into an unbettable race. That race alone was off $700,000 from last year's edition. That and the one less race already account for more than $2 million of the $3 million decline.

2008 was off the turf 3 races, and had 9 races total. They did $15 mil. Today they did $11.7.



The rest can easily be attributed to horrible weather all across the east coast. But whatever, if many of you want to ignore the facts who can say anything.


Last year Mid-Atlantic simulcast didn't take the signal on the opening. That's worse than snow. They did $14.9 last year. Today they did $11.7.


I'm not saying it's the takeout or the boycott, I have no idea. But none of these arguments about "why it wasn't really that bad" hold much water. It was really bad. People forget, "stuff" happens every year. All the years you're comparing to had things going on too. Weather isn't a new phenomenon. 9 races isn't a new phenomenon.

[Stillriledup]

Good stuff Chickenhead.

Weather was not a factor. More and more people have ADW and phone accounts, The Meadowlands was open, so the North Jersey/NYC area has no real excuse not to be able to get bets down if they really want to get bets down. I know a guy back there in that area who's a simulcast only type of player and even HE has the ability to get a bet down if he really wants to without actually leaving his house.

Every bettor has at least one other bettor friend who has some sort of 'betting account'. If a person was 'snowed in' he could call that friend and tell him to place a few bets for him.

I'm not buying that 'people got snowed in so thats why they couldnt bet'. This is 2010, not 1970, people have phones and internet, everyone who really wanted to bet Santa Anita, got their bets down somehow.

[Fager Fan]

2008 was off the turf 3 races, and had 9 races total. They did $15 mil. Today they did $11.7.

When they ran on synth, which is the *same* as turf? Did half the fields scratch out, leaving 5-horse fields with the favorite at 1-5?


Last year Mid-Atlantic simulcast didn't take the signal on the opening. That's worse than snow. They did $14.9 last year. Today they did $11.7.

I don't know that it's worse than snow and the NY OTBs being shut down.


I'm not saying it's the takeout or the boycott, I have no idea. But none of these arguments about "why it wasn't really that bad" hold much water. It was really bad. People forget, "stuff" happens every year. All the years you're comparing to had things going on too. Weather isn't a new phenomenon. 9 races isn't a new phenomenon.

It's closer to a 5% decrease than 20+% decrease when you figure in one less race and the decreased handle on the race taken off the turf. Weather could've easily contributed to the remaining 5%.

[JustRalph]

I don't care why it's down

As long as it's down. The Bastards didn't get any of my money. Here in my office, compared to the last few years at Santa Anita, the "local" boycott is a huge success.

[Alex D]

2008 was off the turf 3 races, and had 9 races total. They did $15 mil. Today they did $11.7.



Right. So with a 9 race off the turf card in 2008 they did 15 mil (assuming your numbers are correct, i did not check). Then they come back in 2009 and add an extra race and get good weather and are on the turf and open on a Saturday instead of a Friday.....and total handle goes down (and there was no change in takeout then and there was no proposed boycott). Given what happened in 2008, they should've been up at least 20% in 2009 vs 2008, but they were down.

Handle has been going down every year in thoroughbred racing. Obviously most question the wisdom of CA's decision regarding takeout....but to attribute a decline in handle on any given day to this specific decision ignores the fact that these handle declines have been taking place already.

[chickenhead]

When they ran on synth, which is the *same* as turf? Did half the fields scratch out, leaving 5-horse fields with the favorite at 1-5?

I'm not going to go back through every opening day this is worse than, there are too many -- but yeah, I imagine this isn't the first odds on favorite, ever. Seeing a 1-5 shot isn't like seeing a unicorn.

I don't know that it's worse than snow and the NY OTBs being shut down.

Didn't Tampa have a great day at simulcast? Perhaps it was a tote-routing malfunction, all the bets meant for SA were sent to other tracks.


It's closer to a 5% decrease than 20+% decrease when you figure in one less race and the decreased handle on the race taken off the turf. Weather could've easily contributed to the remaining 5%.

Which is fine -- it was the perfect storm of storms, everything went against them, in ways things have never before gone against a track, including the once in a thousand years black swan of a crappy betting race.

If things had just gone their way, with all the hoopla and promotion around their new track, and huge new purses -- they maybe, kinda sorta, spittin distance, could have been flat year over year.

A promising start!

[Fager Fan]

I'm not going to go back through every opening day this is worse than, there are too many -- but yeah, I imagine this isn't the first odds on favorite, ever. Seeing a 1-5 shot isn't like seeing a unicorn.



Didn't Tampa have a great day at simulcast? Perhaps it was a tote-routing malfunction, all the bets meant for SA were sent to other tracks.



Which is fine -- it was the perfect storm of storms, everything went against them, in ways things have never before gone against a track, including the once in a thousand years black swan of a crappy betting race.

If things had just gone their way, with all the hoopla and promotion around their new track, and huge new purses -- they maybe, kinda sorta, spittin distance, could have been flat year over year.

A promising start!

See the post above yours. Last year was significantly down from the previous year too. Are you chalking that up to the boycott as well?

[DeanT]

Last year was down significantly. Are you chalking that up to the boycott as well?

People have been boycotting racing since about 1990. The industry is starting to realize it and some are doing some good to reverse this trend (see tracks who are lowering takeout to grow). Horseplayers who choose not to play SA this season are just trying to speed up the process for change in that State.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CG5TVR2hGjE/TQq5Kgx0rkI/AAAAAAAAATc/Npzu6tk7Ok4/s1600/handle.png

[chickenhead]

See the post above yours. Last year was significantly down from the previous year too. Are you chalking that up to the boycott as well?

Last years was significantly down from the years before? $14.913 vs.
$15.046 is significant? But $14.913 vs $11.7 is a minor fluctuation, explained by hand waving?

I didn't chalk anything up to a boycott, or the takeout hike. In fact I specifically said "I'm not chalking this up to boycott or takeout hike". Right?
I merely said the arguments put forth to explain this very large shortfall this year do not appear to me to do a very good job of explaining it.

I actually agree with the post above mine by Alex D, I do think most of it IS due to a general malaise and lack of interest that has slowly and persistently been growing and growing and growing amongst this sports participants, while simultaneously kept new participants from enjoining.

Which I do think is a long term side-effect of a too high a takeout (and other things). I believe over the LONG TERM, it will be proven to them that their takeout hike was wrong headed.

But over the short-term, for today -- hell yeah I think its funny, whatever the cause. Very entertaining to see their private predictions end up being so far off the mark.

[owlet]

[QUOTE=jelly]Steve Andersen from DRF spins It.


The track drew an ontrack crowd of 34,268, a decline of 4 percent over a Saturday opening in 2009, but an increase over the opening days in the three previous years. Track president George Haines said Sunday’s crowd was held down by early morning rains.


Steve Anderson has a vested interest in spinning. It's called his job.

[owlet]

Last years was significantly down from the years before? $14.913 vs.
$15.046 is significant? But $14.913 vs $11.7 is a minor fluctuation, explained by hand waving?

I didn't chalk anything up to a boycott, or the takeout hike. In fact I specifically said "I'm not chalking this up to boycott or takeout hike". Right?
I merely said the arguments put forth to explain this very large shortfall this year do not appear to me to do a very good job of explaining it.

I actually agree with the post above mine by Alex D, I do think most of it IS due to a general malaise and lack of interest that has slowly and persistently been growing and growing and growing amongst this sports participants, while simultaneously kept new participants from enjoining.


It's not just that, a "general malaise." It's that the racing sucks. The experience of going to the track has become a joke. Go back and look carefully at the results today. There were no prices to speak of despite the "full fields." The same jockeys and trainers win 90 percent of the races. The 2-3-4 holes are almost always filled with logical horses. It's a case of which 4-1/3-1/5-2 you're gonna' bet. Certain trainers (Van Berg, etc.) NEVER win. Suspicious late scratches abound in almost every race. Most of all, the races are stupid and mind numbing. They're boring.

The biggest yawner today was the Sir Beaufort, where Sydney's Candy galloped around the runway--sorry, dirt racetrack--at odds on and the second chocie (Indian Firewater) chased him. No one passed anybody. This is a stakes race-a graded stakes race with $150,000 on the line--that was just handed to some horse for a paid workout. Even worse, people talk about the Sir Beaufort and what a 'great' betting race it's been in years past and how awful it was to come off the turf. That's bullshit. Here are the odds of the last four winners of the race: The Usual QT (3/5); Gio Ponti (6/5); Monterrey Jazz (5/1); Kip Deville (7/1). In that time, 46 horses contested the race. THERE IS NO VALUE. PERIOD.

But that's only the tip of the iceberg. Today there were records set for two very commonly run distances at a racetrack that's been around for almost 80 years. Does anyone seriously believe that Twirling Candy and Smiling Tiger are on the same level as Spectacular Bid? Why don't you know, they're both actually 2 LENGTHS BETTER than 'Bid. Now that's accurate, right? Part of the contempt and venality these guys exhibit is to destroy any semblance of tradition or history, to create a "now" headine ("Track Record Set") at the expense of the fabric of the sport. Then they get suprised and aghast when the followers of the game abandon them. They gripe about Indian gaming when they set their take outs 5 times higher than casinos do so their trainers can charge usurious day rates and pay a legion of vets busy shooting drugs into the animals.

Best of all, when their "business strategy" turns into red ink, they go to the bettor, like a punk kid going to daddy to bail him out of jail. Worker's comp rates too high? Raise the takeout. Too hard to be an owner (i.e., too hard to pay absurd day rates, pay breeders for horses at rigged yearling sales, and astronomical vet bills which are de riguere because everyone is using and you don't have a chance if you don't)? Raise the takeout of course!

It's a joke. It is horrifying to watch what has happened to this game. In 1988, you could get a solid 40,000 claimer and watch horses like L.A. Fire, Siberian Hero and Ono Gummo duke it out for real. For keeps.

Now it's charade and the ****ing party is about to end.

[Spiderman]

You guys are being unfair.

Off the turf kills them. The Sir Beaufort is a great turf race every year and it was scratched down to 5 starters with a 1-5 shot. That takes a great betting race and turns it into an unbettable race. That race alone was off $700,000 from last year's edition. That and the one less race already account for more than $2 million of the $3 million decline.

The rest can easily be attributed to horrible weather all across the east coast. But whatever, if many of you want to ignore the facts who can say anything.


The presence of Sidney's Candy did not make for a great betting race, full field on turf or dirt.

[Stillriledup]

It's not just that, a "general malaise." It's that the racing sucks. The experience of going to the track has become a joke. Go back and look carefully at the results today. There were no prices to speak of despite the "full fields." The same jockeys and trainers win 90 percent of the races. The 2-3-4 holes are almost always filled with logical horses. It's a case of which 4-1/3-1/5-2 you're gonna' bet. Certain trainers (Van Berg, etc.) NEVER win. Suspicious late scratches abound in almost every race. Most of all, the races are stupid and mind numbing. They're boring.

The biggest yawner today was the Sir Beaufort, where Sydney's Candy galloped around the runway--sorry, dirt racetrack--at odds on and the second chocie (Indian Firewater) chased him. No one passed anybody. This is a stakes race-a graded stakes race with $150,000 on the line--that was just handed to some horse for a paid workout. Even worse, people talk about the Sir Beaufort and what a 'great' betting race it's been in years past and how awful it was to come off the turf. That's bullshit. Here are the odds of the last four winners of the race: The Usual QT (3/5); Gio Ponti (6/5); Monterrey Jazz (5/1); Kip Deville (7/1). In that time, 46 horses contested the race. THERE IS NO VALUE. PERIOD.

But that's only the tip of the iceberg. Today there were records set for two very commonly run distances at a racetrack that's been around for almost 80 years. Does anyone seriously believe that Twirling Candy and Smiling Tiger are on the same level as Spectacular Bid? Why don't you know, they're both actually 2 LENGTHS BETTER than 'Bid. Now that's accurate, right? Part of the contempt and venality these guys exhibit is to destroy any semblance of tradition or history, to create a "now" headine ("Track Record Set") at the expense of the fabric of the sport. Then they get suprised and aghast when the followers of the game abandon them. They gripe about Indian gaming when they set their take outs 5 times higher than casinos do so their trainers can charge usurious day rates and pay a legion of vets busy shooting drugs into the animals.

Best of all, when their "business strategy" turns into red ink, they go to the bettor, like a punk kid going to daddy to bail him out of jail. Worker's comp rates too high? Raise the takeout. Too hard to be an owner (i.e., too hard to pay absurd day rates, pay breeders for horses at rigged yearling sales, and astronomical vet bills which are de riguere because everyone is using and you don't have a chance if you don't)? Raise the takeout of course!

It's a joke. It is horrifying to watch what has happened to this game. In 1988, you could get a solid 40,000 claimer and watch horses like L.A. Fire, Siberian Hero and Ono Gummo duke it out for real. For keeps.

Now it's charade and the ****ing party is about to end.


Good stuff O, couldnt agree more.

[Robert Goren]

The real reason the handle was down. My fantasy football team is in the super bowl this year(I went out in the semis last year) and I was too busy tracking my players to bet.;)

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Turf Paradise a year ago Sunday: 1,212,049
Yesterday: 1,552,112

Hawthorne a year ago Sunday: 2,297,748 (10 races)
Yesterday: 2,311,654 (9 races)

Both tracks started just a half hour earlier than Santa Anita.

[fmolf]

the joke is the drf made a point of saying S.A. will be relevant in the training of derby hopefuls!....any horse training on the pavement there will be a definite bet against at cd.....I will never bet a race at S.A. till takeouts are rescinded.I never bet a race of theirson the poly either!...Hope the boycott works because racing in general needs socal to get healthy again

[Pacingguy]

They are merely talking about the new surface and the number of people there. The amount they wagered didn't factor into the 'success' label.

[andymays]

Everybody ..........and I mean Everybody out here expected a significant increase in handle on opening day. To have a decrease of 5% would have been surprising. To have a decrease of 12% or more is stunning.

Anyway you slice it I guarantee you that the leadership is nervous. Very very nervous over these numbers.

[Fager Fan]

Last years was significantly down from the years before? $14.913 vs.
$15.046 is significant? But $14.913 vs $11.7 is a minor fluctuation, explained by hand waving?

Didn't you say that 2008 had one fewer race than 2009? So yeah, that makes the higher overall total even more impressive.

What irritates me about you guys is that we have a track who put back in the surface that you (and I) wanted and you don't find that a reason to show appreciation but instead prefer to punish over an exotic takeout hike that the owner of this track and the trainers/owners running over didn't have anything to do with. Stronach's made it clear that he wants to run with the rules of good, old-fashioned competition, and let the track who produces the best product at the best price be the winner. You should approve of that.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Didn't you say that 2008 had one fewer race than 2009? So yeah, that makes the higher overall total even more impressive.

What irritates me about you guys is that we have a track who put back in the surface that you (and I) wanted and you don't find that a reason to show appreciation but instead prefer to punish over an exotic takeout hike that the owner of this track and the trainers/owners running over didn't have anything to do with. Stronach's made it clear that he wants to run with the rules of good, old-fashioned competition, and let the track who produces the best product at the best price be the winner. You should approve of that.
If the track owners and the owners/trainers didn't have anything to do with the takeout hike, who did? Bo and Arnold?

[owlet]

Didn't you say that 2008 had one fewer race than 2009? So yeah, that makes the higher overall total even more impressive.

What irritates me about you guys is that we have a track who put back in the surface that you (and I) wanted and you don't find that a reason to show appreciation but instead prefer to punish over an exotic takeout hike that the owner of this track and the trainers/owners running over didn't have anything to do with. Stronach's made it clear that he wants to run with the rules of good, old-fashioned competition, and let the track who produces the best product at the best price be the winner. You should approve of that.

Are you serious???? The TOC had nothing to do with the takeout hike? You didn't read the comments of trainers like Baffert about it? Incredible.

[toussaud]

people have scattered various tracks, tampa, turf paradise, Hawthorne, handle here todafy. people only have a finitie amount of money to wager on. these tracks are eating away at santa anita

i think everyone just about was up from last year yesterday except SA

i would be curious to see what golden gates handle was yoy

[David-LV]

It's not just that, a "general malaise." It's that the racing sucks. The experience of going to the track has become a joke. Go back and look carefully at the results today. There were no prices to speak of despite the "full fields." The same jockeys and trainers win 90 percent of the races. The 2-3-4 holes are almost always filled with logical horses. It's a case of which 4-1/3-1/5-2 you're gonna' bet. Certain trainers (Van Berg, etc.) NEVER win. Suspicious late scratches abound in almost every race. Most of all, the races are stupid and mind numbing. They're boring.

The biggest yawner today was the Sir Beaufort, where Sydney's Candy galloped around the runway--sorry, dirt racetrack--at odds on and the second chocie (Indian Firewater) chased him. No one passed anybody. This is a stakes race-a graded stakes race with $150,000 on the line--that was just handed to some horse for a paid workout. Even worse, people talk about the Sir Beaufort and what a 'great' betting race it's been in years past and how awful it was to come off the turf. That's bullshit. Here are the odds of the last four winners of the race: The Usual QT (3/5); Gio Ponti (6/5); Monterrey Jazz (5/1); Kip Deville (7/1). In that time, 46 horses contested the race. THERE IS NO VALUE. PERIOD.

But that's only the tip of the iceberg. Today there were records set for two very commonly run distances at a racetrack that's been around for almost 80 years. Does anyone seriously believe that Twirling Candy and Smiling Tiger are on the same level as Spectacular Bid? Why don't you know, they're both actually 2 LENGTHS BETTER than 'Bid. Now that's accurate, right? Part of the contempt and venality these guys exhibit is to destroy any semblance of tradition or history, to create a "now" headine ("Track Record Set") at the expense of the fabric of the sport. Then they get suprised and aghast when the followers of the game abandon them. They gripe about Indian gaming when they set their take outs 5 times higher than casinos do so their trainers can charge usurious day rates and pay a legion of vets busy shooting drugs into the animals.

Best of all, when their "business strategy" turns into red ink, they go to the bettor, like a punk kid going to daddy to bail him out of jail. Worker's comp rates too high? Raise the takeout. Too hard to be an owner (i.e., too hard to pay absurd day rates, pay breeders for horses at rigged yearling sales, and astronomical vet bills which are de riguere because everyone is using and you don't have a chance if you don't)? Raise the takeout of course!

It's a joke. It is horrifying to watch what has happened to this game. In 1988, you could get a solid 40,000 claimer and watch horses like L.A. Fire, Siberian Hero and Ono Gummo duke it out for real. For keeps.

Now it's charade and the ****ing party is about to end.

AMEN :ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

_________
David-LV

[Fager Fan]

Are you serious???? The TOC had nothing to do with the takeout hike? You didn't read the comments of trainers like Baffert about it? Incredible.

First off, the TOC and a couple trainers don't speak for all. Horsemen's groups are basically toothless jokes.

But you don't get what I'm saying. The tracks officially supported the hike too though Stronach's on record as wanting to do business differently. They're working with the hands they're dealt, which means far too much government intervention when we don't need the racing commissions at all. And the CHRB ranks right up there as the worst of the lot, they're the ones who passed the hike, and they're the ones I think your ire should be directed at, not Stronach and the owners and trainers who are no more happy than you are about the state of racing.

Maybe if the CHRB paid back Stronach for the $28 million they had to fork out for their synthetic experiment, SA would be able to fund purses without a hike. That's one example of how the CHRB wields its sword and costs the tracks untold money and the tracks are left to just deal with it.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

First off, the TOC and a couple trainers don't speak for all. Horsemen's groups are basically toothless jokes.

But you don't get what I'm saying. The tracks officially supported the hike too though Stronach's on record as wanting to do business differently. They're working with the hands they're dealt, which means far too much government intervention when we don't need the racing commissions at all. And the CHRB ranks right up there as the worst of the lot, they're the ones who passed the hike, and they're the ones I think your ire should be directed at, not Stronach and the owners and trainers who are no more happy than you are about the state of racing.

Maybe if the CHRB paid back Stronach for the $28 million they had to fork out for their synthetic experiment, SA would be able to fund purses without a hike. That's one example of how the CHRB wields its sword and costs the tracks untold money and the tracks are left to just deal with it.
There is no way the takeout hike would have happened if the tracks said no.
Horsemen groups have no teeth? Well, they represented the California horsemen and pushed for the takeout hike (though you are right, they shouldn't have any teeth when it comes to pricing the product...they unfortunately do). The CHRB was also representing the owners and trainers who were pushing for the takeout hike (how many CHRB members have a stake in the game?).
As for the $28 million causing a takeout hike? First off, the takeout hike will not bring about higher purses, boycott or not. Secondly, I don't think that $28 million came from purse money to begin with.

If a Big Mac goes up to $5 on January, I really don't care if it is unions or individual employees or marketing boards who make the decision, I'm not buying one.

[BlueShoe]

Great Job by CHRB!! :jump:
I must have missed something.:confused: After carefully scouring all 9 pages of this thread plus several others, have been unable to locate any positive news regarding the CHRB. Did perhaps the entire board submit their resignations effective the last business day of the year? :jump: Please advise.

[toussaud]

There is no way the takeout hike would have happened if the tracks said no.
Horsemen groups have no teeth? Well, they represented the California horsemen and pushed for the takeout hike (though you are right, they shouldn't have any teeth when it comes to pricing the product...they unfortunately do). The CHRB was also representing the owners and trainers who were pushing for the takeout hike (how many CHRB members have a stake in the game?).
As for the $28 million causing a takeout hike? First off, the takeout hike will not bring about higher purses, boycott or not. Secondly, I don't think that $28 million came from purse money to begin with.

If a Big Mac goes up to $5 on January, I really don't care if it is unions or individual employees or marketing boards who make the decision, I'm not buying one.
that is a very good and simple analogy to understand

5 year old math says, if you want to make more money, charge 5 dollars for a big mac, you will get more money

however a person who understands economics understand that at 5 dollars, the big mac doesn't offer as much value, therefore not as many people will purchase them. I sure as hell wouldn't. at 5 dollars, you can get a 5 dollar foot long for 5 dollars, you can get a whopper for 5 dollars.

[Fager Fan]

There is no way the takeout hike would have happened if the tracks said no.
Horsemen groups have no teeth? Well, they represented the California horsemen and pushed for the takeout hike (though you are right, they shouldn't have any teeth when it comes to pricing the product...they unfortunately do). The CHRB was also representing the owners and trainers who were pushing for the takeout hike (how many CHRB members have a stake in the game?).
As for the $28 million causing a takeout hike? First off, the takeout hike will not bring about higher purses, boycott or not. Secondly, I don't think that $28 million came from purse money to begin with.

You missed the part where I said they're working with the hands they're dealt. And the CHRB represents no owners besides, what, the one owner who sits on it? There are thousands of owners all across the country, all with opinions and who are affected by racing at all major hubs like CA so again, the few we've heard from don't represent but the few.

I realize the $28 million didn't come from purses, but it all ultimately is in the same pot.

Regarding your statement that horsemen should have no say about the prices of the product, I agree. But I hope you recognize that horseplayers should likewise have no say. The tracks should set the prices and either they'll get the horses/owners and the players or they won't based on those prices.

If a Big Mac goes up to $5 on January, I really don't care if it is unions or individual employees or marketing boards who make the decision, I'm not buying one.

Great. Maybe you should realize that's what you should do as well. Pack up and move on to poker or roulette or whatever floats your boat. But then you're making money off of racing, aren't you?

[toussaud]

You missed the part where I said they're working with the hands they're dealt. And the CHRB represents no owners besides, what, the one owner who sits on it? There are thousands of owners all across the country, all with opinions and who are affected by racing at all major hubs like CA so again, the few we've heard from don't represent but the few.

I realize the $28 million didn't come from purses, but it all ultimately is in the same pot.

Regarding your statement that horsemen should have no say about the prices of the product, I agree. But I hope you recognize that horseplayers should likewise have no say. The tracks should set the prices and either they'll get the horses/owners and the players or they won't based on those prices.



Great. Maybe you should realize that's what you should do as well. Pack up and move on to poker or roulette or whatever floats your boat. But then you're making money off of racing, aren't you?

At the current takeout rate

Hell our profit margin all year might be 3%.

[Charlie D]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan
But I hope you recognize that horseplayers should likewise have no say.


And i hope you recognise that if a product is not seen as value for money by it's customers, it does not sell and when that happens the manufacturer is working at a loss, which can lead the manufacturer to going belly up and hundreds, sometimes thousands of jobs are lost.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Regarding your statement that horsemen should have no say about the prices of the product, I agree. But I hope you recognize that horseplayers should likewise have no say. The tracks should set the prices and either they'll get the horses/owners and the players or they won't based on those prices.
The price is set, so don't complain that players are staying away from California because of it.



Great. Maybe you should realize that's what you should do as well. Pack up and move on to poker or roulette or whatever floats your boat. But then you're making money off of racing, aren't you?
Players have moved on, that is why handle has tanked. I'd like to see the game grow. What California did was do something that is terribly against growth.
And there is another choice. If you don't like what certain tracks have done, you can play tracks that seem to be headed in the right direction.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

And i hope you recognise that if a product is not seen as value for money by it's customers, it does not sell and when that happens the manufacturer is working at loss, which can lead the manufacturer to going belly up and hundreds, sometimes thousands of jobs are lost.
Players have a say...with their wallets. But they have no say in the actual negotiations of setting takeout.

[Charlie D]

Players have a say...with their wallets. But they have no say in the actual negotiations of setting takeout.

Correct HPB and it is imho a great shame they don't use that power, just like they would if the butcher, the baker and candlestick maker treated them as stuipd addicts and idiots.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Handle swongs.

[Rapid Grey]

Correct HPB and it is imho a great shame they don't use that power, just like they would if the butcher, the baker and candlestick maker treated them as stuipd addicts and idiots.

Tracks do a lot more to drive away the addicts and idiots beside the take-out. Some of you may think you speak for the majority but you don't. Nine out of ten players out there probably don't even know that Santa Anita raised take-out, but would know if their simulcasting outlet failed to negotiate a contract so they could wager on it. They're more affected when the price of a program goes up another .50 cents or the DRF goes up another dollar. Not to mention food and beverage prices, lack of comfortable, and secure, seating/wagering options, not enough pari-mutuel clerks on duty or the price of admission itself. Throw in all of the drug issues from state to state, stewards that do one thing in New York and another in Florida and you 've got a fanbase that shrinks rather than grows.

Take-out isn't the end all be all that some of you are making it to be.

[Southieboy]

Race 1 today is off the turf.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Tracks do a lot more to drive away the addicts and idiots beside the take-out. Some of you may think you speak for the majority but you don't. Nine out of ten players out there probably don't even know that Santa Anita raised take-out, but would know if their simulcasting outlet failed to negotiate a contract so they could wager on it. They're more affected when the price of a program goes up another .50 cents or the DRF goes up another dollar. Not to mention food and beverage prices, lack of comfortable, and secure, seating/wagering options, not enough pari-mutuel clerks on duty or the price of admission itself. Throw in all of the drug issues from state to state, stewards that do one thing in New York and another in Florida and you 've got a fanbase that shrinks rather than grows.

Take-out isn't the end all be all that some of you are making it to be.
Correct the takeout issue, and other issues will fix themselves as the industry grows.
The reality is that people aren't leaving because of artificial surfaces, drugs, etc. They complain about it because it is human nature to find fault for why they aren't winning or why they aren't lasting.
Make the game easier to win at, allow players to last longer, and these players become advertising for the industry.

It is all about the game being priced too high.

Any other objection is merely a deflection.

[Fat Syd]

Correct the takeout issue, and other issues will fix themselves as the industry grows.
The reality is that people aren't leaving because of artificial surfaces, drugs, etc. They complain about it because it is human nature to find fault for why they aren't winning or why they aren't lasting.
Make the game easier to win at, allow players to last longer, and these players become advertising for the industry.

It is all about the game being priced too high.

Any other objection is merely a deflection.

What does that mean?

[chickenhead]

this might help to explain why this years opener appeared to be an outlier to some of us. What it all means, who knows.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

What does that mean?
Track takeout being too high. Players can't last. They find alternative games to bet on, or just die out. No visible winners make it nearly impossible to market as a gambling game. Other gambling games are successful because players get a lot of action for little outlay or there are visible winners (like poker stars which cause others to play poker....hoping in the back of their mind to do it for a living).

[Charlie D]

Take-out isn't the end all be all that some of you are making it to be.


No it's not and i didn't suggest it was. TO rate is one of many issues that needs to be addressed as people like Charles Hayward of the NYRA know. As the people who run Tampa Bay seem to know.

[Charlie D]

I do not know these guys so can only go on what i read, but Jeff Platt would be running my track and not David Israel or Kieth Brackpool or anyone else with thier mindset.

[comet52]

Thank you for the only intelligent post in this entire thread.

You guys are being unfair.

Off the turf kills them. The Sir Beaufort is a great turf race every year and it was scratched down to 5 starters with a 1-5 shot. That takes a great betting race and turns it into an unbettable race. That race alone was off $700,000 from last year's edition. That and the one less race already account for more than $2 million of the $3 million decline.

The rest can easily be attributed to horrible weather all across the east coast. But whatever, if many of you want to ignore the facts who can say anything.

[Fat Syd]

No visible winners is a marketing issue, not a price issue. Someone wins these 6 fig pik 6 payoffs. Someone wins these 5 figure pik 4's. The marketing of these winners is not the same as there are no winners.

Betting on racing is complicated.

[Charlie D]

Thank you for the only intelligent post in this entire thread.



You post certainly wouldn't qualify as being intelligent would it.

[Fat Syd]

Track takeout being too high. Players can't last. They find alternative games to bet on, or just die out. No visible winners make it nearly impossible to market as a gambling game. Other gambling games are successful because players get a lot of action for little outlay or there are visible winners (like poker stars which cause others to play poker....hoping in the back of their mind to do it for a living).

Racing is immensely successful in other countries that have way higher takeout rates. I agree takeout is too high and wish it wouldn't be but racing would not be that much more successful if they lowered the takeout by 40%. You have way too many races and a very diluted product that is simply not very interesting.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

I agree takeout is too high and wish it wouldn't be but racing would not be that much more successful if they lowered the takeout by 40%.

Great post Fat Syd!

I agree. If racing lowered their takeout to 2% on all bets, I think total yearly handle would stay flat right around the $10 billion mark.

[Tom]

So compare the dirt races tot he poly races on opening day last year and this and omit the grass races. How do they compare then?

[Fat Syd]

Great post Fat Syd!

I agree. If racing lowered their takeout to 2% on all bets, I think total yearly handle would stay flat right around the $10 billion mark.

I think lower takeout is very important and hope it starts to happen and it will help..There are just too many races in the US for the customer base!

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I think lower takeout is very important and hope it starts to happen and it will help..There are just too many races in the US for the customer base!
If takeout were reduced across the board, the customer base would be huge and growing.

[toussaud]

Racing is immensely successful in other countries that have way higher takeout rates. I agree takeout is too high and wish it wouldn't be but racing would not be that much more successful if they lowered the takeout by 40%. You have way too many races and a very diluted product that is simply not very interesting.
they also don't have the comp from poker and casinos as we do as well. they have it, it just hasn't caught wildfire like it has here.

At the end of the day it's just prudent business. You make easier to make money because, it's easier to make money playing poker and you are losing clients, you need to even the playing field, not shorten it.