NY OTB Bill does not pass [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

The_Knight_Sky

12-07-2010, 06:49 PM

I like Crist but I totally disagree with him on this.
I think nyra scores big with this move. If it's not via attendance
than it will be through their phone accounts.

I'm standing alongside Jay on this. Mr. Crist's argument:
The reality, however, is that far fewer OTB customers will become regular trackgoers than will give their business to out-of-state national bet-takers or simply find a new and more convenient hobby.

OTB has never promoted the live racing experience. The NYRA is doing that now. The ADW option has been available for more than a decade. If OTB patrons haven't yet signed up by now the NYRA should make a push towards that end also.
__________________________________________

My initial exposure to the New York signal was at the GWB Port Authority station OTB back in the late 80's when the NYRA signal was not piped into Jersey.

It was great being able to follow Mogambo, Moment of Hope and King Swan
from the other side of the river, but I knew that OTB was not the best for
a burgeoning bettor like myself. For one thing there was no video allowed into the shop back then. All we were treated to was Marshall Cassidy's call.

And then we were also treated to punch out the ridiculous cards with the
horses being assigned a betting LETTER (not saddlecloth number).
There were other shortcomings but once The Big M signed a contract for the NYRA signal, I never visited that OTB again.

It is my hope that those OTB patrons who can take advantage of the free bus service, hot dog and coffee/soda voucher, do so immediately. The convenience of OTBs (bouyed by the 5% surcharge on all winning tickets) :faint: is not a fair trade off. Come experience live racing at the racetrack!

thaskalos

12-07-2010, 08:12 PM

If you cannot make a profit booking bets in NY...then you don't deserve to be in business.

Period!

Jasonm921

12-07-2010, 08:32 PM

The knight sky...you brought back memories with the horses by letter. I spent a lot of time after school with my dad at the local otb. I remember the fuzzy audio of Marshall Cassidy and the blue and red screens with the finish order in letters.

Jasonm921

12-07-2010, 08:37 PM

A lot of the oldtimers play harness. You can't play harness on track at NYRA.
You can't play a $.50 pick 4 on any track.
Minimun Pick 4 ticket is a dollar, even if that particular track offers it for $.50
Nassau OTB should be the ones sending out buses.

That could be rectified regarding the 50 cent bets. As far as harnass? Not NYRA's problem. Sorry to say that but it's not their game.

Charli125

12-07-2010, 09:20 PM

That could be rectified regarding the 50 cent bets. As far as harnass? Not NYRA's problem. Sorry to say that but it's not their game.

If they want to get every OTB player possible, they'll add Harness and 50 cent bets to the menu. Or, they'll decide that it's better to lose some players, and not offer one/both of those. Likely it'll be a purely financial decision, but I hope they keep Harness because I'd hate to see a track like Tioga lose a bunch of handle.

I agree with the previous posters that they have a golden opportunity here to grab those OTB players. Not only can they offer the same product, but they can offer it without the win surcharge. I would be marketing the hell out of that not only for race track attendance, but also for phone accounts, web accounts, etc.

thespaah

12-07-2010, 11:12 PM

The one question I cannot seem to which I cannot get a straight answer is "if there is so much money flowing through NYCOTB, why is it then that the betting entity is bleeding money?
Can anyone PLEASE tell my where in God's Green Earth is the money going!!!!
I think NYC OTB should end.
There is a point when a thing can become so poisoned, so wretched that it is better to wreck it and rebuild rather than repair.
I think NYC OTB should be wrecked and rebuilt.
The new organization should be operated as a non-profit or operated by NYRA.
The new OTB should be free of political appointees and bulbous state salaries and benefits.
There should be none of this nonsense of "who you know" whch exists in OTB today. There are people from the top of the management to the clerks that are grossly overpaid and not in the least bit customer service focused.
I used to go into NYC OTB's when I worked in lower Manhattan. The clerks all treated the bettors like shit. They looked at the bettors like they were just dregs of society. I hated them for it but i|I wanted to get in my wagers. So I held my nose and took care of my business.
Blow it up and start anew.

Zman179

12-07-2010, 11:36 PM

http://www.nycotb.com/newnycotb/NewsandEvents/Promotions/tabid/213/Default.aspx

Unfortunately this afternoon, the NYS Senate chose not to pass the bill passed by the Assembly that would have saved NYC OTB. Therefore, due to a lack of unrestricted funds to continue in business, NYC OTB will be ceasing all pari-mutuel wagering operations today, Tuesday, December 7, 2010 as per our Board of Directors vote, and will proceed to the orderly winding down of its business affairs.

Three branches will remain open in Queens, Brooklyn and Manhattan for six calendar days after the last day of operations so that customers can cash tickets/vouchers and make account withdrawals. Thereafter, these transactions can be conducted at NYCOTB’s customer service center located at 1501 Broadway in Manhattan for up to six weeks. The locations that will remain open temporarily are:

107-40 QUEENS BLVD, FOREST HILLS, NYCross Street- Continental Ave
515 SEVENTH AVE, NEW YORK, NYCross Street- West 38th Street
6719 BAY PARKWAY, BROOKLYN, NYCross Street-West 8th Street

The hours of operation will be from 12:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. on the six calendar days following the last day of operations.

The corporation's website, www.nycotb.com will be updated constantly to keep our customer abreast of all events.

Jasonm921

12-08-2010, 12:04 AM

Thank you and Good Bye. Do you think they will reopen the German food concession stands at the NYRA tracks again? :jump:

Last Thurs and Friday they had 2100 and just shy of 2300, respectively. Lets see what they get tommorrow.

CBedo

12-08-2010, 01:42 AM

I am shocked they are closing. That's alot of money flowing through there. What will the guys who make their livings stooping, picking up used tickets? lol

PaceAdvantage

12-08-2010, 04:04 AM

samyn on the green

12-08-2010, 05:32 AM

The clear solution (http://gregcalabrese.blogspot.com/2010/12/clear-solution-to-otb-drama.html) to the NYC OTB issue is not even being discussed or considered anywhere.

gm10

12-08-2010, 07:00 AM

The clear solution (http://gregcalabrese.blogspot.com/2010/12/clear-solution-to-otb-drama.html) to the NYC OTB issue is not even being discussed or considered anywhere.

Fully agree. I don't understand why you guys put up with this. Why does betting have to be run communist-style? Just let the private sector get involved. If you can't make money from taking bets with 16% take-out, you probably can't organize a piss-up in a brewery either.

Robert Goren

12-08-2010, 07:19 AM

Fully agree. I don't understand why you guys put up with this. Why does betting have to be run communist-style? Just let the private sector get involved. If you can't make money from taking bets with 16% take-out, you probably can't organize a piss-up in a brewery either.There are a lot of places (both privately and government run) losing a lot more money with a lot higher take-out. Profitable racing operations are scarce as hen's teeth.

gm10

12-08-2010, 07:35 AM

There are a lot of places (both privately and government run) losing a lot more money with a lot higher take-out. Profitable racing operations are scarce as hen's teeth.

How is that possible? It's not like they have to make their own odds like a bookmaker and lay bets. As long as the organisation is run efficiently, you would expect them to be able to survive.

Charli125

12-08-2010, 11:01 AM

As long as the organisation is run efficiently...

Yeah, that's the problem. Practically no racing organisation is run efficiently.

FantasticDan

12-08-2010, 11:45 AM

The clear solution (http://gregcalabrese.blogspot.com/2010/12/clear-solution-to-otb-drama.html) to the NYC OTB issue is not even being discussed or considered anywhere.
Read ths Crist article I linked earlier.. excerpt regarding putting the NYCOTB operation "up for bid":

That may all sound especially good in the current anti-government, tea-partying atmosphere, but it’s a pipedream. The state government will remain bound to racing for decades if not forever – the New York Racing Association is in only the third-year of a 25-year franchise.

Selling NYCOTB to private interests has been tried several times and there has never been a real offer because potential buyers quickly realize they’re bidding on a phantom. What are you really buying if you buy NYCOTB, given that the state government regulates everything from hours of operation to which signals you’re allowed to take, and the rules change with each election cycle.

tribecaagent

12-08-2010, 12:04 PM

No OTB signal for Manhattan cable either...why?....still 3 branches open for business.

classhandicapper

12-08-2010, 12:31 PM

NYCOTB is/was NYRA's single largest source of handle. How is this not going to be a negative for NYRA in the short run at least? At a time when they can obviously LEAST afford such a thing.

There aren't enough buses in the state to replace the handle they are going to lose over the coming days and weeks.

Hopefully I'm wrong.

You are almost definitely correct.

OTB was created partially to attract handle from people that were using local book makers. Some phone and internet bettors will simply switch from OTB accounts to NYRA accounts or go to Nassau Downs (no loss), but some will choose other ADWs, off shore outlets, stop betting all together, or return to neighborhood bars and social clubs where they can place bets with local bookies.

That's something that a lot of people don't understand about OTB bettors.

For many, it's not about the horse racing. They aren't like the people here that take it seriously. For them it's about getting out of the house and gathering with other people from the neighborhood and doing something. That could just as easily be a local bar or social club with or without racing.

JustRalph

12-08-2010, 12:37 PM

Read ths Crist article I linked earlier.. excerpt regarding putting the NYCOTB operation "up for bid":

That may all sound especially good in the current anti-government, tea-partying atmosphere, but it’s a pipedream. The state government will remain bound to racing for decades if not forever – the New York Racing Association is in only the third-year of a 25-year franchise.

Selling NYCOTB to private interests has been tried several times and there has never been a real offer because potential buyers quickly realize they’re bidding on a phantom. What are you really buying if you buy NYCOTB, given that the state government regulates everything from hours of operation to which signals you’re allowed to take, and the rules change with each election cycle.

This is info of invaluable importance. Would you buy a business where you cannot make decisions? You can't even decide when to open and close?

How about the fact that your business will be run at the whim of a dysfunctional, totally corrupt government? There have got to be so many hands in that cookie jar that you would be just another hangnail in the mix.

Would you turn your bazillion dollar business over to the legislature in Albany? Going private is a nightmare for whomever buys it

classhandicapper

12-08-2010, 12:55 PM

One of the most telling things about this is that now that the shit has hit the fan people are already starting to cover their asses. I've already read and heard the points of views of the various sides and IMHO they are all full of shit.

Personally, I can't see how it's over because the state is going to inherit 600m of liabilities related to the former NYCOTB employee benefits if it closes permanently. The government would have to be crazy to not fix this. I know politicians are incompetent thieving scum buckets, but I never considered them crazy.

I can't believe the creditors of NYCOTB (primarily NYRA) and the other OTB regions could not come to an agreement also when everyone on the planet knows the other regions are on the same path as NYCOTB. It's inevitable that the other regions are going to have to be fixed also. If any kind of deal could have been worked out they would have gotten the votes.

tubesockshakur

12-08-2010, 05:02 PM

Bruddah

12-08-2010, 08:31 PM

If you cannot make a profit booking bets in NY...then you don't deserve to be in business.

Period!

Another coveted Amen Bruddah for the Holidays. :ThmbUp: That's about as poingnant and spot on as it gets. :ThmbUp:

slewis

12-08-2010, 10:06 PM

This is info of invaluable importance. Would you buy a business where you cannot make decisions? You can't even decide when to open and close?

How about the fact that your business will be run at the whim of a dysfunctional, totally corrupt government? There have got to be so many hands in that cookie jar that you would be just another hangnail in the mix.

Would you turn your bazillion dollar business over to the legislature in Albany? Going private is a nightmare for whomever buys it

You wonder why I have a go at some of you guys when you manage to put your own feet in your mouth.

I just make it more obvious for everyone to see.
So tell me Ralph, with the dysfunctional Govt, as you label NY, and all the rules and regulations, why and how is it that Nassau OTB, the next county to NYC, is profitable?

Myself, and several friends, meet at a Nassau OTB on weekend evenings and guess what? We get treated like gold. UNLIKE the way F..in NYRA treats me.
We get comp'ed food and drink, a private room (if we bet a certain amount) and the manager ALWAYS stops by and asks if everything is ok and if he could do anything for us.

Between my contacts and business dealings in NY racing, I'm directly and indirectly a contributor of at AT LEAST 5 million in handle per year, and a party to racing a half dozen horses at NYRA.
I BUY a seat everyday which has a TV that you cannot see the picture. When I complain all they do is swap a bad TV with another bad TV.
If I didn't have a racing license, at Belmont and Saratoga, I'd get charged the same stupid admission, program and parking as the clowns (I mean racing fans) that picnic at Saratoga and bet who bet $8 per day.

This issue is not about Govt not being able to run a bookie joint. It's about MISMANAGEMENT.
Of course now the damage is too bad to fix.
I'm suprised they haven't called HAZEL DUKES in to fix it!

Tom

12-08-2010, 10:18 PM

You wonder why I have a go at some of you guys

Your deficient personality?

JustRalph

12-09-2010, 01:42 AM

slewis

12-09-2010, 09:22 AM

SLewis

I don't see how my agreeing with what crist wrote, and your example are even related?

Your example is not germane to the subject of my post.

The nycotb being bought as whole, versus a small otb That makes money, are two entirely different subjects...........

Let's just say that crist gets it right, and just like many other states, NY has a business climate that is not business friendly. Racing may be the only business in the state that can claim to be completely out of the hands of it's owners. There are very few businesses regulated like racing. But you know that........

Ralph,

I will repeat something I've posted on other threads when refering to OTB, NYRA, and Horse Racing in general. They are in the GAMBLING business.

GAMBLING is run by the STATE. Case closed. It's not hardware or childrens shoes. The rules of free enterprise don't apply, and any state that gives this right to a private enterprise to run (like NYRA), on behalf of the state, had better be getting a solid return on their investment.

Secondly, Nassau OTB I doubt is what you labeled "small". I haven't even researched it but I live in NY and with the population demography it has to be up near the top in the state.

Steve Crist mentions "rules" as the reason no one would even remotely be interested in buying OTB. Guess what Steve, those rules are in place to protect lobbying entities in the sport, like the Harness game.
Right or wrong, they are at the pleasure of the legislators of the state, who are elected by the people. It's gambling, and the regulations will be much more strict than say, a children's shoe store.

My main contention is the "NY state business climate" statement.

Ridiculous. There is always a balance between services, taxes and population fueling successful enterprise. If this weren't the case, why doesn't say, NYRA, find a parcel of land in the "friendliest" state with the "best" business climate, construct a track, and try and put on the from show there?
Obviously, this is a very silly statement. But it brings to light what you fail to account. That highly populated areas offer opportunities for all businesses. With that luxury, comes the need for services, which taxes pay for.
In the case of RACING, and the LOTTERY, and OTB.....their MAJOR purpose is to EASE the tax burden on the population.
Mr Crist sometimes forgets this when ranting about the way Govt treats his beloved sport. I think you did too.

aaron

12-09-2010, 10:00 AM

Ralph,

I will repeat something I've posted on other threads when refering to OTB, NYRA, and Horse Racing in general. They are in the GAMBLING business.

GAMBLING is run by the STATE. Case closed. It's not hardware or childrens shoes. The rules of free enterprise don't apply, and any state that gives this right to a private enterprise to run (like NYRA), on behalf of the state, had better be getting a solid return on their investment.

Secondly, Nassau OTB I doubt is what you labeled "small". I haven't even researched it but I live in NY and with the population demography it has to be up near the top in the state.

Steve Crist mentions "rules" as the reason no one would even remotely be interested in buying OTB. Guess what Steve, those rules are in place to protect lobbying entities in the sport, like the Harness game.
Right or wrong, they are at the pleasure of the legislators of the state, who are elected by the people. It's gambling, and the regulations will be much more strict than say, a children's shoe store.

My main contention is the "NY state business climate" statement.

Ridiculous. There is always a balance between services, taxes and population fueling successful enterprise. If this weren't the case, why doesn't say, NYRA, find a parcel of land in the "friendliest" state with the "best" business climate, construct a track, and try and put on the from show there?
Obviously, this is a very silly statement. But it brings to light what you fail to account. That highly populated areas offer opportunities for all businesses. With that luxury, comes the need for services, which taxes pay for.
In the case of RACING, and the LOTTERY, and OTB.....their MAJOR purpose is to EASE the tax burden on the population.
Mr Crist sometimes forgets this when ranting about the way Govt treats his beloved sport. I think you did too.
Slewis- I couldn't agree more. Between NYRA and NYC OTB you have two dysfunctional organizations. Both these organizations have had an unworkable business plan for many years. As for Nassau OTB,they have their own patronage,but at least they seem to be able to profit. They still have the 5 % surcharge at all branches except the Palace. To bet in your account at the other branches you must have a $300.00 balance in order not to pay the surcharge. It amazes me,how many players play with the surcharge.Nassau OTB would also like to pay less for the major signal that keeps them in business. NYRA sold its product to cheap many years ago and that is the major problem. Whoever negotiated the contracts for NYRA should be ashamed of themself.

OTM Al

12-09-2010, 01:13 PM

NYRA sold its product to cheap many years ago and that is the major problem. Whoever negotiated the contracts for NYRA should be ashamed of themself.

FYI NYRA and Finger Lakes are obligated to provide their signals to the New York OTB system. There is no negotiation here. Rates are set by statute. It is why NYRA could not consider pulling their signal even though they were not getting paid for it by NYCOTB. And lest anyone fool themselves, NYCOTB was making money and plenty of it. Why do you think Bloomberg wouldn't just give it away? Lot of deceptive accounting going on here.

Zman179

12-09-2010, 01:45 PM

FYI NYRA and Finger Lakes are obligated to provide their signals to the New York OTB system. There is no negotiation here. Rates are set by statute. It is why NYRA could not consider pulling their signal even though they were not getting paid for it by NYCOTB. And lest anyone fool themselves, NYCOTB was making money and plenty of it. Why do you think Bloomberg wouldn't just give it away? Lot of deceptive accounting going on here.

The law does indeed state that the signal must be provided to the parlors and teletheaters; however, the tracks do have the right to pull their signals to any off-site areas (i.e. NYC Channel 71, Capital OTB channel, etc.)

OTM Al

12-09-2010, 02:05 PM

The law does indeed state that the signal must be provided to the parlors and teletheaters; however, the tracks do have the right to pull their signals to any off-site areas (i.e. NYC Channel 71, Capital OTB channel, etc.)

This would have been self destructive though because these channels (or at least the NYC ones) are only allowed to show NY tracks when they are running and further it was the only way NYRARewards customers could be guaranteed to see the races live from home. TVG or HRTV would get around this issue, but then it doesn't guarantee seeing the race live.

Zman179

12-09-2010, 02:18 PM

This would have been self destructive though because these channels (or at least the NYC ones) are only allowed to show NY tracks when they are running and further it was the only way NYRARewards customers could be guaranteed to see the races live from home. TVG or HRTV would get around this issue, but then it doesn't guarantee seeing the race live.

Well right now, TVG or HRTV would be a vast improvement to what's currently available. I have Time Warner, which means I have no Channel 71/73, TVG nor HRTV. I called Verizon to inquire about switching, but they're not available in my area right now, and I cannot get a dish. This sux big time.

clore1030

12-09-2010, 07:36 PM

Well right now, TVG or HRTV would be a vast improvement to what's currently available. I have Time Warner, which means I have no Channel 71/73, TVG nor HRTV. I called Verizon to inquire about switching, but they're not available in my area right now, and I cannot get a dish. This sux big time.

It sure does. I have to empty my OTB account but I won't be signing up with NYRA Rewards if I can't see the action live. I'm a spot player who handicaps everyday, but if the odds aren't in my favor, I pass.

Free buses? Heck, a limo might be an inducement to get me to sit through a card waiting for my spot. But not on a day such as today where there were four maiden races. They'll have had to pick me up in time to make the eighth race as that was my intended wager - which I would have won. I'm just trying to eke out a few extra bucks to enhance my disability pension. It's too much effort to go there to find that my play has dropped to 6/5 when I won't opt for less than 5/2.

the little guy

12-09-2010, 08:05 PM

It sure does. I have to empty my OTB account but I won't be signing up with NYRA Rewards if I can't see the action live. I'm a spot player who handicaps everyday, but if the odds aren't in my favor, I pass.

Free buses? Heck, a limo might be an inducement to get me to sit through a card waiting for my spot. But not on a day such as today where there were four maiden races. They'll have had to pick me up in time to make the eighth race as that was my intended wager - which I would have won. I'm just trying to eke out a few extra bucks to enhance my disability pension. It's too much effort to go there to find that my play has dropped to 6/5 when I won't opt for less than 5/2.

With all due respect, you are all over the map here, and I'm not really sure of your point. In the general sense, NYRA Rewards, like other ADWs, has odds updates, so even without the signal, you would know what the odds are when you are betting. This situation is unchanged since NYC OTB closed. In the specific....today's 8th was won by a 9:1 shot. I don't think you ever had to worry about it being even 5:2....much less 6:5.

While NYRA, as of now, is prohibited by the State from streaming their races live, you can see the replay on NYRA Rewards as soon as the race is official. While this is far from perfect, contrary to what your post suggests, you can see odds updates just the same as when you had the signal, and you can view the race.

I hope this helps.

Saratoga_Mike

12-09-2010, 08:07 PM

With all due respect, you are all over the map here, and I'm not really sure of your point. In the general sense, NYRA Rewards, like other ADWs, has odds updates, so even without the signal, you would know what the odds are when you are betting. This situation is unchanged since NYC OTB closed. In the specific....today's 8th was won by a 9:1 shot. I don't think you ever had to worry about it being even 5:2....much less 6:5.

While NYRA, as of now, is prohibited by the State from streaming their races live, you can see the replay on NYRA Rewards as soon as the race is official. While this is far from perfect, contrary to what your post suggests, you can see odds updates just the same as when you had the signal, and you can view the race.

I hope this helps.

Is NYRA working to change this now?

OTM Al

12-09-2010, 10:04 PM

Is NYRA working to change this now?

Yep

http://www.drf.com/news/nyra-makes-plans-address-shortfall-caused-otb-closure

PaceAdvantage

12-09-2010, 11:30 PM

slewis

12-09-2010, 11:46 PM

Isn't it sad that Nassau County OTB thinks they have a say on whether or not NYRA can open a part of Belmont Park to simulcast races from Aqueduct?

What's even sadder is if they actually do have a say...and considering the way NY racing is legislated, I wouldn't be surprised... :faint:

That's an interesting point. Let's play devil's adcat for a second.

NYRA was granted a franchise to run LIVE racing in the state of NY.

NOT to be part of a simulcasting outlet. Yet, I never heard much hoopla when they race at Saratoga and NYRA opens the facility for simulcasting. Why now?

Regardless, what should decide approval for things like this is one driving factor, and that is, what's in the best interest of the betting public who support both entities.

That withstanding, it's a slam dunk. ... But I'd argue and complain as well if I were chair of Nassau OTB, as would you.

Zman179

12-10-2010, 12:13 AM

While NYRA, as of now, is prohibited by the State from streaming their races live, you can see the replay on NYRA Rewards as soon as the race is official. While this is far from perfect, contrary to what your post suggests, you can see odds updates just the same as when you had the signal, and you can view the race.

I've done this quite a few times with Batavia Downs and Vernon Downs and let me tell you this: it is a huge pain in the azz. You can't tell if there's a delay in post time, you can't get timely changes, you can't tell if there is an inquiry, tote delay, etc. All you get is a big 0 MTP and you have to wait for the number to change in order to get the replay. In other words, it's not worth the time. One would be better off catching a movie.

clore1030

12-10-2010, 09:11 AM

I hope this helps.

Yes it does, to some degree. I guess you're saying that I have to follow the odds on their website. It's a change from just watching the TV, but I suppose I'll get used to it. Because I go through occasional Verizon DSL outages (for which they have no explanation, and we've changed the modem and now I have a PC that's only a month old).

In short, I'm uncomfortable having to rely on the PC for it all. I've always used the phone to call in my bet and even at three minutes to post, I've never been shut out. In times when the connection was down, I was unaffected as the races are already handicapped, the phone and the TV were still there for their respective purposes. Besides, a 44 inch TV is preferable to watching a 19-inch monitor.

Even when the connection is running, streaming video isn't the most reliable. With all the buffering, a 70-second race can take a lot longer than that.

Since I posted though, I have read that the NYRA is trying to restore the TV signal, so that's a possibility that makes the adjustment a bit more tolerable.

andymays

12-10-2010, 05:20 PM

NYRA to open Aqueduct for simulcasting on dark days

http://www.drf.com/news/nyra-open-aqueduct-simulcasting-dark-days

FantasticDan

01-25-2011, 01:34 PM

Final nail in coffin:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/60967/judge-dismisses-nycotb-bankruptcy-case

classhandicapper

01-30-2011, 12:17 AM

Isn't it sad that Nassau County OTB thinks they have a say on whether or not NYRA can open a part of Belmont Park to simulcast races from Aqueduct?

What's even sadder is if they actually do have a say...and considering the way NY racing is legislated, I wouldn't be surprised... :faint:

The entire thing is dysfunctional because government is too involved.

Even if I were to be reasonably pragmatic (and not my usual libertarian self) and concede that gambling should be regulated in some way, the only way it will ever prosper is if competition, merit, return on capital, etc.. determine who wins and who loses and failure means an exit from the business.

It has to be run like a real business in a real industry.

It can't be run or heavily influenced by corrupt and incompetent politicians doing the bidding of self interested people, incompetents with political connections that were appointed to their position, unions etc...

It's sad for me to watch, but even if there are any smart people in important positions in this industry (and I really don't see much evidence of it), they are surely too handcuffed to do anything.

Robert Goren

01-30-2011, 07:15 AM

Zman179

01-30-2011, 07:47 AM

There is not one well run track in the US.

Keeneland?

Thomas Roulston

01-30-2011, 09:19 AM

And I was looking forward to hanging around at the OTB near the Staten Island Mall when I make my annual trip to the NYC area in the spring.

FenceBored

01-30-2011, 09:45 AM

Keeneland?

Not trying to be snarky here, but ...

If Keeneland didn't have the sales revenue to rely on would it be considered a well run track?

classhandicapper

01-30-2011, 10:26 AM

Horse racing is dysfunctional even where tracks are run by private industry. Is California(privately owned) better off than New York(state owned). There is not one well run track in the US. Even Oaklawn would not be open without its glorified slots.

I do agree as matter of principal that the government should not be running the tracks or OTBs.

There are plenty of privately owned racetracks, but government, government appointed people, etc.. still excessively regulate and control what those owners can do.

Did all the CA race track owners want synthetic tracks?

Did all the CA race track owners want to raise the track take?

Etc...

Unless you are a private owner that gets to make virtually all the decisions about how to run your business, you are only private in name. And of course, being private doesn't guarantee success.

IMO the failure of incompetents and the removal of that excess capacity is a good thing for the remaining tracks.

For example, IMO propping up dead tracks with profitable casinos makes it tougher on the rest of the industry. I suspect that some of those owners would prefer to simply close the track and run the casino. That would actually be a good thing for the remaining tracks because some of that track handle would be bet at the remaining tracks and make them more profitable.

Zman179

01-30-2011, 05:24 PM

Not trying to be snarky here, but ...

If Keeneland didn't have the sales revenue to rely on would it be considered a well run track?

We don't know because the track and auction have been one of the same for many years. Yet remember, Keeneland offers a racing experience and shows a profit without slots.

Robert Goren

01-30-2011, 10:51 PM

There are plenty of privately owned racetracks, but government, government appointed people, etc.. still excessively regulate and control what those owners can do. How is this different from any other legal form of gambling? and things like slot pallors and card clubs are doing ok in most places. Even state run lotteries are making money hand over fist. A gambling license of any sort is a license to print money. It was that way in horse racing at one time too. Then somebody got greedy. If you look at the takeout rates from 60s and who got what, then compare those numbers to today, you will figure out in a hurry where the problem is. The numbers don't lie.

JustRalph

01-31-2011, 01:05 AM

Keeneland is a well run "track" it's the racing that they ruined. I enjoy it. The track, that is. It's the racing I can't stand. Not that it was great before the change to plastic. But I stopped playing their poly after two meets.

I can go and play other tracks and enjoy Keeneland's atmosphere. And that is nice.

classhandicapper

01-31-2011, 09:42 AM

How is this different from any other legal form of gambling? and things like slot pallors and card clubs are doing ok in most places. Even state run lotteries are making money hand over fist. A gambling license of any sort is a license to print money. It was that way in horse racing at one time too. Then somebody got greedy. If you look at the takeout rates from 60s and who got what, then compare those numbers to today, you will figure out in a hurry where the problem is. The numbers don't lie.

You are making a very good point.

Absent the freedom to control take out rates etc.. I think in the new environment a smart private owner with a struggling track should sell the track property for development and make a greater profit. Then some/most of the betting handle from that circuit would shift to the remaining tracks and make them more profitable. The idea should be to maximize the return on invested capital. If the market shrinks, the industry must shrink. Some people/states might not like that because of the job loss, but that's the way it should work.

FantasticDan

06-24-2011, 12:00 AM

Huh! What a surprise.. :rolleyes:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/63696/nycotb-restructuring-plan-fails-in-albany

Robert Goren

06-24-2011, 12:08 AM

OTBs may very well be on the way out as a viable business. The internet has changed everything. Horse racing as usual is about 15 years behind.

thespaah

06-24-2011, 12:23 AM

Huh! What a surprise.. :rolleyes:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/63696/nycotb-restructuring-plan-fails-in-albany
i cannot believe there are NY politicians who think the taxpayers of NY State should pay the former OTB worker's health care costs. That's absurd and a slap in the face to all cash strapped residents of NY.

PaceAdvantage

06-24-2011, 12:36 AM

Sounds like the unions talking.

thespaah

06-24-2011, 12:44 AM

Sounds like the unions talking.
IN your best estimate, why has the idea of NYRA or another company such as Penn Gaming been solicited to operate NYC OTB?
Having a company like Penn give it a whirl would make sense, No?

PaceAdvantage

06-24-2011, 12:47 AM

I believe there has been plenty of chatter about NYRA or some other entity taking over select NYCOTB parlors that as of now remain "underutilized" so to speak. :lol:

classhandicapper

06-26-2011, 01:34 PM

i cannot believe there are NY politicians who think the taxpayers of NY State should pay the former OTB worker's health care costs. That's absurd and a slap in the face to all cash strapped residents of NY.

I guess you don't believe that when one entity contracts with another to provide "X" it should actually deliver "X". Remind to never do businsess with you. ;)

OTB was not a private entity with the freedom to allocate resources as it saw fit in order to maximize profits and make good on its promises to employees. If it was, then those former employees that are now retired would be out of luck.

It was a dumping ground for political patronage jobs at the top and handcuffed every step of the way from making the changes that would have improved it's chances of becoming a more profitable enterprise and providing even more billions to taxpayers than it provided in the past.

OTB inevitably became a disaster - just like everything else government touches. But the unions, OTB, and city and state governments agreed to health care benefits for retirees as part of their compensation after they worked "X" years. Regardless of whether the deals were smart or not, either the state or city should be on the hook because it was the government that destroyed the company and it was the government that was the beneficiary during the good times.

All the non retired employees and others without enough years of service to qualify for retiree health care service are and should be out of luck. That in itself is a shame because it was the government's fault it no longer exists in some form that would be beneficial to those workers AND NYRA AND the industry.

classhandicapper

06-26-2011, 02:05 PM

I believe there has been plenty of chatter about NYRA or some other entity taking over select NYCOTB parlors that as of now remain "underutilized" so to speak. :lol:

It should have been done already, but obviously the government is going to **** things up.

Even at the end, there were numerous NYC OTB branches that were massively profitable despite the union cost structure, questionable leases to friends, and fat at the top of the company from government patronage jobs.

With competent management, market based compensation and deals, etc.. a flood of extra money would be flowing into NYRA and other tracks around the country instead into the hands of bookies or nowhere at all.

Ideally, it should be NYRA doing it, but I don't trust NYRA to do a competent job any more than I trusted the patronage imbeciles that managed OTB.

Have to ever seen the NYRA online betting system?

I use it (among others), but it has to be among the worst there is. It looks like a 10 year old with no horse racing experience and little technology experience designed it. It's embarrassing. OTB's was much better and even that one was nowhere near as good at the old YOUBET and others I have used.

Ocala Mike

06-26-2011, 07:30 PM

All the non retired employees and others without enough years of service to qualify for retiree health care service are and should be out of luck. That in itself is a shame because it was the government's fault it no longer exists in some form that would be beneficial to those workers AND NYRA AND the industry.

Couldn't agree with you more. Just talked to my buddy in Staten Island who used to work for NYCOTB. He recounted that one of his former co-workers, who fell into the above category, died of a massive heart attack a week or two after getting his pink slip. He was in his early 50's, and was stressed over losing his family healthcare coverage.

Ocala Mike

thespaah

06-26-2011, 09:56 PM

I guess you don't believe that when one entity contracts with another to provide "X" it should actually deliver "X". Remind to never do businsess with you. ;)

OTB was not a private entity with the freedom to allocate resources as it saw fit in order to maximize profits and make good on its promises to employees. If it was, then those former employees that are now retired would be out of luck.

It was a dumping ground for political patronage jobs at the top and handcuffed every step of the way from making the changes that would have improved it's chances of becoming a more profitable enterprise and providing even more billions to taxpayers than it provided in the past.

OTB inevitably became a disaster - just like everything else government touches. But the unions, OTB, and city and state governments agreed to health care benefits for retirees as part of their compensation after they worked "X" years. Regardless of whether the deals were smart or not, either the state or city should be on the hook because it was the government that destroyed the company and it was the government that was the beneficiary during the good times.

All the non retired employees and others without enough years of service to qualify for retiree health care service are and should be out of luck. That in itself is a shame because it was the government's fault it no longer exists in some form that would be beneficial to those workers AND NYRA AND the industry.
Ahh. This argument. Sure it's an agreement, but an agreement is only valid when there is equal consideration. Because NYC OTB went belly up than means there is no more money. The taxpayers had no say in the making of the agreement. They should not be saddled with the costs. That is not right.
Sorry, but the former workers will just have to buy their own health coverage or find jobs with employers that provide access to insurance coverage. Just like the rest of us.
See, the "State" and "City" are funded by TAX DOLLARS.
The taxpayers are tapped out. It is what it is. Everyone must sacrifice.

Ocala Mike

06-27-2011, 02:20 PM

Just like the rest of us.

Ahh. This argument. I mistakenly thought that public sector workers were like "the rest of us."

Ocala Mike

thespaah

06-27-2011, 02:49 PM

Ahh. This argument. I mistakenly thought that public sector workers were like "the rest of us."

Ocala Mike
No..They are not. Not in the arena of work.
Public sector workers are funded by the taxpayers. Public sector workers, especially those represented by unions are paid higher wages and receive better benefits for similar work than those in the private sector.
When union bosses and politicians make deals the taxpayers get the short end of the stick.
Quite frankly, the days of guaranteed anything for public employees are over.
These wages and benefits are no longer sustainable.
With the OTB case, the "company" lost billions and was shut down. So be it.
In your mind is it right for the union bosses and the politicians that made the deals to be able to simply say " Ahh, let the taxpayers worry about the union deal. We are out of here"?
I don't think so.

Ocala Mike

06-27-2011, 04:03 PM

Public sector workers, especially those represented by unions are paid higher wages and receive better benefits for similar work than those in the private sector.

There are many studies that have taken place that show just the opposite. No matter; public sector workers have pointed ears and tails, and are clearly the enemy.

Ocala Mike

thespaah

06-27-2011, 05:51 PM

There are many studies that have taken place that show just the opposite. No matter; public sector workers have pointed ears and tails, and are clearly the enemy.

Ocala Mike
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-03-01-1Apublicworkers01_ST_N.htm....
No, the workers are not the enemy. The system by which they are compensated is the problem.
The people who pay the tab are not offered a seat at the bargaining table.
It's a closed system.
I think that a low skilled clerk type job is at best middle level in the pay dept.
For example, Meadowlands mutuel tellers avg over $24 per hour plus benefits. NJ Turnpike toll collectors $65k per year plus benefits. These are unskilled labor positions. Those wages are inappropriate.

Robert Fischer

06-27-2011, 06:29 PM

are you kidding?, those toll collectors make wayyyyyyyyyyy more than 65k.
have you ever seen how many cars go through there ?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-03-01-1Apublicworkers01_ST_N.htm....
No, the workers are not the enemy. The system by which they are compensated is the problem.
The people who pay the tab are not offered a seat at the bargaining table.
It's a closed system.
I think that a low skilled clerk type job is at best middle level in the pay dept.
For example, Meadowlands mutuel tellers avg over $24 per hour plus benefits. NJ Turnpike toll collectors $65k per year plus benefits. These are unskilled labor positions. Those wages are inappropriate.

classhandicapper

07-01-2011, 07:19 PM

The taxpayers had no say in the making of the agreement. They should not be saddled with the costs. That is not right.

See, the "State" and "City" are funded by TAX DOLLARS.
The taxpayers are tapped out. It is what it is. Everyone must sacrifice.

This is what you are misunderstanding.

The city and state government represent YOU. So YOU did agree. So did I. It was not a direct agreement, but it was an agreement.

The government may have made horrible deals that you or I personally would never have agreed to, but that's what representative government is about. That's why so many people want a small government not involved in too many things. Government tends to be both incompetent and corrupt.

Ocala Mike

07-01-2011, 11:10 PM

The city and state government represent YOU. So YOU did agree. So did I.

Amen.

Ocala Mike

thespaah

07-02-2011, 08:29 AM

This is what you are misunderstanding.

The city and state government represent YOU. So YOU did agree. So did I. It was not a direct agreement, but it was an agreement.

The government may have made horrible deals that you or I personally would never have agreed to, but that's what representative government is about. That's why so many people want a small government not involved in too many things. Government tends to be both incompetent and corrupt.
NO. All what is told to the taxpayers is that there will be unionized workers paid from tax dollars. As far as the actual bargaining or more appropriately, extortion, that was implemented out of public view.
I am not suggesting absolute democracy. All that is needed is some semblance of
impartiality on the part of the people who's job it is to represent the will of the people.
At the end of the day, if one wishes to place responsibility on the taxpayers for electing people who engaged in these deals with public worker unions, then the responsibility of the bankruptcy of the NYC Corp must fall on the people who ran the company into the ground. The taxpayers did their thing. They paid up. There was no mention of any additional responsibility. If it went broke, so be it. The taxpayers fulfilled their obligation. It's over. The workers will just have to to what the 93% of us who are non-union people must do. That is go find another job that has benefits available. I cannot fathom as why that is such a difficult concept to understand.
Every one of us has had at one time or another ,hardship. Why is it that the unionized public worker is special? What is it that makes these people believe they are exempt?
Why these OTB clerks were unionized to begin with is a mystery.

classhandicapper

07-03-2011, 11:12 AM

NO. All what is told to the taxpayers is that there will be unionized workers paid from tax dollars. As far as the actual bargaining or more appropriately, extortion, that was implemented out of public view.
I am not suggesting absolute democracy. All that is needed is some semblance of
impartiality on the part of the people who's job it is to represent the will of the people.
At the end of the day, if one wishes to place responsibility on the taxpayers for electing people who engaged in these deals with public worker unions, then the responsibility of the bankruptcy of the NYC Corp must fall on the people who ran the company into the ground. The taxpayers did their thing. They paid up. There was no mention of any additional responsibility. If it went broke, so be it. The taxpayers fulfilled their obligation. It's over. The workers will just have to to what the 93% of us who are non-union people must do. That is go find another job that has benefits available. I cannot fathom as why that is such a difficult concept to understand.
Every one of us has had at one time or another ,hardship. Why is it that the unionized public worker is special? What is it that makes these people believe they are exempt?
Why these OTB clerks were unionized to begin with is a mystery.

You beef is with the government, the deals it made, and its communication to you about the deals whether you realize it or not. That's the bottom line.

Not only that, OTB was not run into the ground by the lower level clerks and managers that worked there. It was run into the ground by the incompetent people government appointed at the top as payback for politics. Even when they appointed and hired semi competent people government tied their hands and wouldn't allow them to do what needed to be done.

This has NOTHING to do with unions.

If OTB workers were unionized members of a private corporation that ran itself into the ground, the workers would be out of luck. This was a government related enterprise that government ran into the ground. The government is not bankrupt. Of course I agree that if it keeps making stupid deals and running everything it touches into the ground because of incompetence and corruption, the government will go bankrupt also.

Ocala Mike

07-03-2011, 12:17 PM

It was run into the ground by the incompetent people government appointed at the top as payback for politics. Even when they appointed and hired semi competent people government tied their hands and wouldn't allow them to do what needed to be done.

Truer words were never spoken. I worked as a Senior Pari-Mutuel Examiner for NY State, 1977-1991, and audited all six OTB regions as part of my job during those years. Although my audits only had to do with compliance with Pari-Mutuel law, it was apparent that there were "issues" elsewhere. Kind of surprised that NYC OTB lasted as long as it did (40 years), and wondering which region falls by the wayside next.

Ocala Mike

Rookies

07-08-2011, 07:25 PM

Can anybody confirm that ALL NYS OTBs are in the crapper ?

On the way to the Spa, we normally stop in the Rochester area the day before. Are they all kaput too ?

Thanks

Rooks

Zman179

07-08-2011, 08:03 PM

Can anybody confirm that ALL NYS OTBs are in the crapper ?

On the way to the Spa, we normally stop in the Rochester area the day before. Are they all kaput too ?

Thanks

Rooks

Only the OTB's in New York CITY closed. All the others are open for business.

Rookies

07-09-2011, 10:40 AM

Thanks Z!

thespaah

07-09-2011, 11:06 AM

You beef is with the government, the deals it made, and its communication to you about the deals whether you realize it or not. That's the bottom line.

Not only that, OTB was not run into the ground by the lower level clerks and managers that worked there. It was run into the ground by the incompetent people government appointed at the top as payback for politics. Even when they appointed and hired semi competent people government tied their hands and wouldn't allow them to do what needed to be done.

This has NOTHING to do with unions.

If OTB workers were unionized members of a private corporation that ran itself into the ground, the workers would be out of luck. This was a government related enterprise that government ran into the ground. The government is not bankrupt. Of course I agree that if it keeps making stupid deals and running everything it touches into the ground because of incompetence and corruption, the government will go bankrupt also.
The taxpayers should not be held liable for open ended deals where people who work for a government entity are responsible.
Bottom line, if there's no more money, that's it.
And about the union. If there was no union, there would be no need for this discussion. Why these workers needed to be unionized is a mystery.
This is just one example explaining why the current groundswell of anger against public employee unions.
In this case, the people responsible get to walk away leaving the taxpayers holding the bag. IMO that's not right.

thespaah

07-09-2011, 11:08 AM

Truer words were never spoken. I worked as a Senior Pari-Mutuel Examiner for NY State, 1977-1991, and audited all six OTB regions as part of my job during those years. Although my audits only had to do with compliance with Pari-Mutuel law, it was apparent that there were "issues" elsewhere. Kind of surprised that NYC OTB lasted as long as it did (40 years), and wondering which region falls by the wayside next.

Ocala Mike
Yes. Unfortunately it would probably been bad for you had you gathered evidence and blown the whistle. This is a perfect example of why many folks distrust government to do things the correct way and out in public view.

classhandicapper

07-09-2011, 06:28 PM

The taxpayers should not be held liable for open ended deals where people who work for a government entity are responsible.
Bottom line, if there's no more money, that's it.
And about the union. If there was no union, there would be no need for this discussion. Why these workers needed to be unionized is a mystery.
This is just one example explaining why the current groundswell of anger against public employee unions.
In this case, the people responsible get to walk away leaving the taxpayers holding the bag. IMO that's not right.

Sorry, but you don't understand democracy. You elected the people that did all these stupid things to represent YOU. So you (all taxpayers) are responsible for the deals. You have no obligation for a PRIVATE company.

What you want to do is admit to yourself that government is incompetent and corrupt and adjust your politics so that in the future imbeciles are no longer elected or have very limited power to do dumb things.

WPL

07-10-2011, 01:40 AM

classhandicapper

07-10-2011, 01:50 AM

the unions representing otb interests in nyc did not give a tinker's damn whether the corporation made money or not. they lost money hand over fist in almost every year of operation. it's hard to say whose interests were served by that arrangement ( kickbacks to politicians, perhaps? )- except it certainly was not in the interest of the public.
as long as they keep trying to resurrect the old model of doing business they can go to hell in a handbag.
best thing ever happened to me horse-racing wise was them going out of business and me being forced to bet online making the kind of wagers on numerous tracks i could have never got down standing back on line fingering my green while watching horses being loaded in the gate.
good riddance!

NYC OTB contributed MASSIVE amounts of money to NYC, NYS, and the racing industry during its existence. Even a few years ago it was still meeting all it's obligations. It wasn't until the industry went to hell (handle down across the board) that it started piling up IOUs because so much of its cost structure was fixed and handcuffed by politics.

Obviously, it wasn't a well run company at the upper levels because of the political corruption, but government = corruption and incompetence. They are basically synonyms.

PaceAdvantage

07-10-2011, 02:05 AM

It wasn't until the industry went to hell (handle down across the board) that it started piling up IOUs because so much of its cost structure was fixed and handcuffed by politics.Handle never went down THAT much...come on....

WPL

07-10-2011, 02:06 AM

true. the corporation was raped.
i never held the rank and file, the ticket sellers, responsible for that.

thespaah

07-10-2011, 02:30 AM

Sorry, but you don't understand democracy. You elected the people that did all these stupid things to represent YOU. So you (all taxpayers) are responsible for the deals. You have no obligation for a PRIVATE company.

What you want to do is admit to yourself that government is incompetent and corrupt and adjust your politics so that in the future imbeciles are no longer elected or have very limited power to do dumb things.
This has about as much to do with democracy as oranges have to do rhubarb.
We agree to disagree.
With the current climate being anti-public employee union, those on the side of the status quo are not winning any new friends.

classhandicapper

07-10-2011, 04:19 PM

Handle never went down THAT much...come on....

The handle was dropping by x% each year industry wide while rents, utilities, etc... were rising for OTB.

I'm not arguing that NYC OTB was run like a well oiled machine :lol:, but it was getting squeezed on both sides over the last few years.

It was handling close to a billion a few years ago and was down a couple hundred million last time I saw the numbers. That money certainly wasn't shifting back to the tracks for a more pleasant betting experience. ;)

At the same time. managers, clerks and other employees weren't getting raises. So it wasn't variable costs that did them in. It was rising unavoidable costs combined with declining industry wide revenue, combined with being handcuffed by politics to do anything about it, combined with poor contracts negotiated by idiots that were appointed by government combined with idiots inside government.

Tom

07-10-2011, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Rookies
Can anybody confirm that ALL NYS OTBs are in the crapper ?

On the way to the Spa, we normally stop in the Rochester area the day before. Are they all kaput too ?

Thanks

Rooks

Marway Circle branch will welcome you with open arms. You might see me in the parking lot having my lunch. Can't miss me - parked next to the pile of Flintstone rib bones! :D

classhandicapper

07-10-2011, 04:34 PM

This has about as much to do with democracy as oranges have to do rhubarb.
We agree to disagree.
With the current climate being anti-public employee union, those on the side of the status quo are not winning any new friends.

I'm about as anti union as it gets in general, but this doesn't have much to do with unions. If OTB wasn't unionized but OTB negotiated certain pension and health care benefits for workers, the government should STILL be on the hook for those retirees because OTB was NOT private. The government had a role in the deals.

What should have happened was the same thing that happened in many private sector industries. When companies realized that some of the benefit promises they made to employees years ago were getting too expensive, they tweaked the programs, changed the type of pension etc... GOING FORWARD and for NEW employees, but made good on the old promises. If they did go bust, then everyone was out of luck PERIOD because there was no money.

The government was too corrupt and incompetent to fix the mess early. So WE (taxpayers) are and should be on the hook for it because WE are the government and the country is not bankrupt (yet).

You are right about one thing, we need to agree to disagree.

thespaah

07-10-2011, 06:35 PM

I'm about as anti union as it gets in general, but this doesn't have much to do with unions. If OTB wasn't unionized but OTB negotiated certain pension and health care benefits for workers, the government should STILL be on the hook for those retirees because OTB was NOT private. The government had a role in the deals.

What should have happened was the same thing that happened in many private sector industries. When companies realized that some of the benefit promises they made to employees years ago were getting too expensive, they tweaked the programs, changed the type of pension etc... GOING FORWARD and for NEW employees, but made good on the old promises. If they did go bust, then everyone was out of luck PERIOD because there was no money.

The government was too corrupt and incompetent to fix the mess early. So WE (taxpayers) are and should be on the hook for it because WE are the government and the country is not bankrupt (yet).

You are right about one thing, we need to agree to disagree.
Here's where we part ways on philosophy. When people say "the government pays or should pay...they forget to acknowledge in what manner government is funded.
In this context I do not use the term "government" I state "taxpayers".
That is the angle from which I come.
As we have seen, there is a groundswell of protest from taxpayers in many states who have become aware that funding and compensation for public employees has gotten out of control.
Hey, Saratoga opening day is 12 days from now!!!!! :jump:

classhandicapper

07-10-2011, 08:25 PM

Here's where we part ways on philosophy. When people say "the government pays or should pay...they forget to acknowledge in what manner government is funded.
In this context I do not use the term "government" I state "taxpayers".
That is the angle from which I come.
As we have seen, there is a groundswell of protest from taxpayers in many states who have become aware that funding and compensation for public employees has gotten out of control.
Hey, Saratoga opening day is 12 days from now!!!!! :jump:

We totally agree on that point.

I am just extending that to mean if the government makes a deal, the taxpayer is responsible because we elected the idiots.

Let's discuss Saratoga in another thread. I'm sure we agree on that. :ThmbUp: