Classic R.J.

[cj]

I'm not the mushy type, but this is just sad. Check out these PPs:

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/classicrj.jpg

As you can see, he was entered today for $2,500. Here is the result:

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/classicrj2.jpg

[Jasonm921]

That is freakin horrible. What was the end result (fatal?)... although I think I already know.

[Greyfox]

The break down is indeed saddening.
I doubt that the trainer thought it would likely happen though.
A lot of animals who fall to these low ranks are infirmed.
Looks like this early speed type followed his instincts and tried to lead.
His body wasn't up to what he wanted to do.

[cj]

The break down is indeed saddening.
I doubt that the trainer thought it would likely happen though.
A lot of animals who fall to these low ranks are infirmed.
Looks like this early speed type followed his instincts and tried to lead.
His body wasn't up to what he wanted to do.

If he didn't think it would happen why drop him to absolute rock bottom? The horse had won a lot of money and a few stakes races. There is no way anything good was going to come from this. If he truly didn't know, he is a horrible trainer that shouldn't have a license.

[thaskalos]

And they dare to call this, "The Sport Of Kings"...:ThmbDown:

[gm10]

I saw that race. Poor horse.
And of course nobody will be held responsible for this.

[Greyfox]

If he didn't think it would happen why drop him to absolute rock bottom? The horse had won a lot of money and a few stakes races. There is no way anything good was going to come from this. If he truly didn't know, he is a horrible trainer that shouldn't have a license.

I can't imagine the type of trainer that would put a horse in a race knowing that it was going to break down on the track. Then again I don't know this guy.

[duncan04]

I can't imagine the type of trainer that would put a horse in a race knowing that it was going to break down on the track. Then again I don't know this guy.

Doug O' Neill is one of them! :(

[Greyfox]

Doug O' Neill is one of them! :(

Doug O'Neill is a lot of things but I haven't seen that ace played by him.

[thaskalos]

I can't imagine the type of trainer that would put a horse in a race knowing that it was going to break down on the track. Then again I don't know this guy.
We see it all the time.

Horses get gelded early in their racing careers so they can "keep their minds on racing"...they give their all on the race track - making hundreds of thousands of dollars for their greedy owners...and then they spend their twilight years racing in 2,500 claimers, one step away from the slaughter house.

Disgraceful!

[duncan04]

Doug O'Neill is a lot of things but I haven't seen that ace played by him.


What about the horse he had run at Los Alamitos who broke down on the track??

[Robert Fischer]

the PPs shine a negative light on two trainers here.

I'm not the mushy type, but this is just sad. Check out these PPs:

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/classicrj.jpg

As you can see, he was entered today for $2,500. Here is the result:

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/classicrj2.jpg

[cj]

the PPs shine a negative light on two trainers here.

I agree, was wondering if someone else would catch that.

[thaskalos]

the PPs shine a negative light on two trainers here.
C'mon...you can't compare the 2 drop-downs...

The $14,000 Arlington claimer drop is suspicious...but the $2,500 Beulah drop is criminal.

[illinoisbred]

Really, its a story of 3 trainers. Steve Hobby put the claim slip in on this horse in 09 at AP. He obviously saw or found something he didn't want to deal with and sold him off to Prainito's client.

[cj]

C'mon...you can't compare the 2 drop-downs...

The $14,000 Arlington claimer drop is suspicious...but the $2,500 Beulah drop is criminal.

Maybe he meant Hobby after the claim? Even Amoss could be considered bad, though certainly not in the same league as today.

[andymays]

Here's another one. I didn't want to start another thread.
----------------------------------------------

Disastrous debut for eight-year-old gelding at Mountaineer - Thoroughbred Times

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2010/12/07/disastrous-debut-for-eight-year-old-gelding-at-mountaineer.aspx

Excerpt:

We rehab a lot of our older horses and sell them or give them to good homes,” Hronec said. “We’ve probably given away 50 or 60 horses that way, and this is the first time it’s come back and bit me in the butt like this. This was a horse who was never to be brought back to the racetrack. … It’s a hard lesson for me to learn. I guess the problem we made was giving [Murphy] the papers on the horse. I probably should have sent them to the Jockey Club and said ‘Not for racing.’ ”

[Robert Fischer]

Really, its a story of 3 trainers. Steve Hobby put the claim slip in on this horse in 09 at AP. He obviously saw or found something he didn't want to deal with and sold him off to Prainito's client.

good catch

[firstoffclaim]

Maggie Moss must be absolutely sick about this, she has done alot with retired thoroughbreds, and often claims horses she once owned to retire them.

[Robert Goren]

The sad fact is that there is more horses no long fit for racing than there places for them. What to do with a five year old horse who will probably live another 10-15 years is a problem. There is only so much demand for saddle horses these days.

[Bullet Plane]

When owners don't find a good home for stakes winners, it makes the sport look bad. In this day and age, it could prove fatal to the sport.

[Mineshaft]

At least Hobby saw fit to not race the horse and sell him.

The trainer of record worked this horse 6 days ago a 1/2 mile in 54 and change that right there should of told this trainer the horse is not right.

[Grits]

When owners don't find a good home for stakes winners, it makes the sport look bad. In this day and age, it could prove fatal to the sport.

A horse is a horse, a living and breathing animal--whether or not he is a stakes winner (and most aren't) should be of no matter whatsoever.

[Robert Goren]

A horse is a horse, a living and breathing animal--whether or not he is a stakes winner (and most aren't) should be of no matter whatsoever.You are right, but question remains what you do with a horse that is bred to race whether or not the horse actually see track. Right now there are too many horses and not enough places for them off the race track. In an ideal world they would all be put out to pasture, but that costs money. In a sport that is scrapped for cash that money is simply not there.

[nijinski]

If he didn't think it would happen why drop him to absolute rock bottom? The horse had won a lot of money and a few stakes races. There is no way anything good was going to come from this. If he truly didn't know, he is a horrible trainer that shouldn't have a license.

I agree with you Cj and it happens too often . Shame on those connections.

[Relwob Owner]

A horse is a horse, a living and breathing animal--whether or not he is a stakes winner (and most aren't) should be of no matter whatsoever.


Well put......Whether it be a stakes winner or a 2500 claimer, I personally feel like the minute you make the commitment to own a horse, you must already have the resources and a plan to make sure the horse is taken care of after racing....

[johnhannibalsmith]

If he didn't think it would happen why drop him to absolute rock bottom? The horse had won a lot of money and a few stakes races. There is no way anything good was going to come from this. If he truly didn't know, he is a horrible trainer that shouldn't have a license.

This is sort of the sick part for me. I can be objective about circumstances, but generally when it comes to this type of scenario, I always thought there were basically four types of mentalities:

a) Too dumb to know any better. Every time this thing struggles to make it through a work, these guys are proudly calling the clocker before he's in a gallop out.

b) Knows better, but remains delusional. Unlike choice (a), who will insist until the day he dies that the horse was stone sound and believe it, this guy will beat himself up forever over it... but go ahead and repeat the same mistake if given the chance because delusions are tough to recognize when you're delusional.

c) Knows better and doesn't care. Horses are a commodity meant to race and if he can't make his sorry ass around the track, then this guy don't want to feed him another day. This guy needs gelded too.

d) Knows better and does the right thing far more often than not. Luckily, this group is the overwhelming majority everywhere.

As you point out CJ, this trainer probably certainly doesn't fit into (a) and I'm doubtful on (b) for the same reason - the fact that the horse is actually probably in the right spot (obviously, not running is the right condition...) and not delicately spotted somewhere that the connections knew he couldn't possibly be claimed.

It's a somewhat uncommonly aggressive move, in my opinion, for the totally helpless or the temporarily delusional to bring a good ole' horse back and spot him to sell and win first back.

[saratoga guy]

If he didn't think it would happen why drop him to absolute rock bottom?

I'm not defending this, but there's a significant difference between "would" and "might". Your wording suggests the guy actually entered the horse thinking it would breakdown. Regardless of how sketchy the move was, I doubt he felt it "would" happen.

[Relwob Owner]

I'm not defending this, but there's a significant difference between "would" and "might". Your wording suggests the guy actually entered the horse thinking it would breakdown. Regardless of how sketchy the move was, I doubt he felt it "would" happen.


Isnt thinking it "might" happen just as bad?

[joanied]

Isnt thinking it "might" happen just as bad?

Right. Not going to repeat what everyone here has already said, but I will run one thing by...if you own race horses, IMO, you must have a place for them after they are done...a back pasture, something...the upkeep isn't really all that much if you do the basics...hay, water, farrier, de worming and yearly shots...I'd bet there are many owners who have a place on their farm for their own horses to go...but too many would rather run them for one last shot at a paycheck, and then something like this happens.
Criminal.

[Relwob Owner]

Right. Not going to repeat what everyone here has already said, but I will run one thing by...if you own race horses, IMO, you must have a place for them after they are done...a back pasture, something...the upkeep isn't really all that much if you do the basics...hay, water, farrier, de worming and yearly shots...I'd bet there are many owners who have a place on their farm for their own horses to go...but too many would rather run them for one last shot at a paycheck, and then something like this happens.
Criminal.



Couldnt agree more....in a perfect world, organizations like the Thoroughbred Retirement Fund would charge owners a mandatory fee and that money would go into a solid organization that handles it.....personally, I own a few and have a place they go when they are done running and I pick up the tab until they find a safe home.....anyone who doesnt have a plan has no place owning to begin with IMO.....they make this sport possible.

[proximity]

Maggie Moss must be absolutely sick about this, she has done alot with retired thoroughbreds, and often claims horses she once owned to retire them.

in this case it looks like maggie moss was the one who first entered this stakes winner to be claimed. i guess late nights reading the ragozin sheets by candlelight convinced her that $14k was the right spot.

hope mr gill isn't reading this thread.

[Johnny V]

We see it all the time.

Horses get gelded early in their racing careers so they can "keep their minds on racing"...they give their all on the race track - making hundreds of thousands of dollars for their greedy owners...and then they spend their twilight years racing in 2,500 claimers, one step away from the slaughter house.

Disgraceful!
I agree with you totally on this. :ThmbUp:

[big frank]

how does this horse get past the track vet ? It is a shame that these poor animals are treated like this...

[Valuist]

Never, ever claim a horse off Tom Amoss. You will not move him up, and you won't keep him at the level Amoss could run him. Just won't work and seen it too many times.

[CBedo]

I know this thread is about "trainer intent," but I have to ask, who in the heck, bet this thing down to even money? I did not play this race (I wish I would have handicapped this day), but if there ever was a negative class drop, this was it.

[bks]

The trainer of record worked this horse 6 days ago a 1/2 mile in 54 and change that right there should of told this trainer the horse is not right.

Makes you wonder about the two horses that worked slower at the same distance that day.

[JustRalph]

I know this thread is about "trainer intent," but I have to ask, who in the heck, bet this thing down to even money? I did not play this race (I wish I would have handicapped this day), but if there ever was a negative class drop, this was it.

two idiots with a hundred bucks can knock a horse to fav at Beulah sometimes..... I haven't looked at the pools........but they aren't that big

[CBedo]

two idiots with a hundred bucks can knock a horse to fav at Beulah sometimes..... I haven't looked at the pools........but they aren't that bigJust looked, 32,000 Mutuel Pool. When I'm running bad and having thoughts that the public is too good and you just can't beat this game, these kinds of races bring me back to a cheerier reality.

[Tom]

I can't imagine the type of trainer that would put a horse in a race knowing that it was going to break down on the track. Then again I don't know this guy.

You don't watch many races, huh?

[Mineshaft]

Makes you wonder about the two horses that worked slower at the same distance that day.




also makes you wonder if the trainer thought his horse was ready after working that 54.

[bks]

I'm not defending the trainer, Mineshaft. The point is that his workout wasn't even the slowest of 10 at the distance that day, and so by itself it may not have stood out as a poor effort. It was Hawthorne in the late fall. The track could have been a disaster for all we know.

Having said that, what happened is sickening and trainers who knowingly run endangered horses should have their own legs broken, IMO.

[Robert Fischer]

five of the ten listed four furlong works for HAW 1 December were 54.0 or slower, so no the work alone wasn't red flag worthy.


however I do agree that it would not be unreasonable to use things like SLOW works and layoffs as support for a decision

with the class drop there should have been at the very least a comprehensive vet examination, and probably a probationary denial of entry requiring an additional work under veterinary supervision.

[tbwinner]

Absolutely appalling. How ridiculous is this...this is why it pains me to look at PPs that have the double layoff line and a huge class drop.

As a horse owner, I know this stuff happens all the time. Unfortunately people don't have the resources to keep them out on pasture. I own horses in partnership and on my own, my group and I have plans to put horses when their racing career is over. We just decided to stop training on one of our two year olds who didn't want to be a racehorse. We had two choices, one of our partners would take her (the group just pays to ship back to her) and she would live on her farm or give her to another trainer who planned to run on some county fair circuit (she was at Penn)...yeah, we've heard that before. Who do you think we chose? It's RIDICULOUS if you would go with the second option!

And, the Equibase chart cut off where the claim would show, and this horse DID in fact get CLAIMED out for $2,500 by an Eric Ramaekers. So the greedy owner/trainer got their $2500 for this horse whose fate ended up horribly wrong. How ridiculous.

[GlenninOhio]

five of the ten listed four furlong works for HAW 1 December were 54.0 or slower, so no the work alone wasn't red flag worthy.


however I do agree that it would not be unreasonable to use things like SLOW works and layoffs as support for a decision

with the class drop there should have been at the very least a comprehensive vet examination, and probably a probationary denial of entry requiring an additional work under veterinary supervision.

Any concerns about the class drop one race back from placing in a stakes to $14,000 claimer at AP for a 4-year old who was an Ill-bred stakes winner and had recorded a 92 Beyer at 3?

It was already expressed earlier in this thread that you claim a horse from Amoss at your peril.

[illinoisbred]

Any concerns about the class drop one race back from placing in a stakes to $14,000 claimer at AP for a 4-year old who was an Ill-bred stakes winner and had recorded a 92 Beyer at 3?

It was already expressed earlier in this thread that you claim a horse from Amoss at your peril.
Agree,and as Valuist stated earlier,you're generally asking for nothing but problems claiming these sorts off Tom Amoss.

[Mineshaft]

Absolutely appalling. How ridiculous is this...this is why it pains me to look at PPs that have the double layoff line and a huge class drop.

As a horse owner, I know this stuff happens all the time. Unfortunately people don't have the resources to keep them out on pasture. I own horses in partnership and on my own, my group and I have plans to put horses when their racing career is over. We just decided to stop training on one of our two year olds who didn't want to be a racehorse. We had two choices, one of our partners would take her (the group just pays to ship back to her) and she would live on her farm or give her to another trainer who planned to run on some county fair circuit (she was at Penn)...yeah, we've heard that before. Who do you think we chose? It's RIDICULOUS if you would go with the second option!

And, the Equibase chart cut off where the claim would show, and this horse DID in fact get CLAIMED out for $2,500 by an Eric Ramaekers. So the greedy owner/trainer got their $2500 for this horse whose fate ended up horribly wrong. How ridiculous.






wow he did get claimed unbelievable. dont know what else you can do to send a red flag that this horse was not sound. I mean a year layoff or more plus a drop from 14K to 2500. My dog would of known to stay away from this horse.

[SaratogaSteve]

Maggie Moss must be absolutely sick about this, she has done alot with retired thoroughbreds, and often claims horses she once owned to retire them.


well, she apparently had no issue accepting the $14k from the claim... :confused:

[Mineshaft]

trust me Maggie Moss is not sick about this

[proximity]

trust me Maggie Moss is not sick about this

are you sure about this? because i know at penn national maggie moss used a trainer that is head of the horseman's association and i'm sure such a conditioner would know how to give the horses a proper retirement right??:rolleyes:

[illinoisbred]

trust me Maggie Moss is not sick about this
Agree with you Mineshaft. She had plenty of opportunity to buy him back after Hobby claimed him at Arlington. In fact, so could have just farmed him out after the initial injury in 08,and she didn't. It's clear she and Amoss wanted to "unload" themselves of this horse. Again,what always surprises me is that someone actually is foolish enough to claim such a horse.

[Mineshaft]

are you sure about this? because i know at penn national maggie moss used a trainer that is head of the horseman's association and i'm sure such a conditioner would know how to give the horses a proper retirement right??:rolleyes:








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