Obama Caves-in

[Spiderman]

Would love to play poker with this guy. He didn't get 50/50 for his grand compromise.

So what if he refused to continue the Bush-era tax cuts? He vetoes it in next Congress! Republicans are found begging alms for millionaires!

What if Repugs refuse to extend unemployment benefits? He puts it as temporary or cuts a 50/50 deal for something else.

How are we to get out of the budget mess by giving-away $700B to people who don't need it.

Its not too early to negate the deal. Send an email to your Congress person, tonight.

[Rookies]

Couldn't agree more- an absurd and incredibly stupid sell out that will fry up the incomes of U.S. great grand children. This looks as what it is- a desperate compromise to retain the benefits of the highest office, rather than what it should have been- a principled stand, with proper choices. And, where these budget cuts and choices should have been put forward, there was nada.

Increasingly, more and more persons warm to those who stand firm on their values, whether they like them or not, rather than these crafted in smoky hell compromises.

I stand with Top Czar Socialist Warren Buffet:

"They say you have to keep those tax cuts, even on the very wealthy, because that is what energizes business and capitalism."
To which Buffet replies:



"The rich are always going to say that, you know, just give us more money and we’ll go out and spend more and then it will all trickle down to the rest of you. But that has not worked the last 10 years, and I hope the American public is catching on."EXACTLY !:ThmbUp:

Let the Cons plead for the millionaires. Totally FUBARed situation.

[bigmack]

How are we to get out of the budget mess by giving-away $700B to people who don't need it.
How did you come up with $700B?

[Marshall Bennett]

Don't ya love it. Where else can a guy that was getting $16 an hour sit on his dead ass and get a check instead of taking a job paying $15 an hour. The beat goes on. Ain't life grand....

[Spiderman]

How did you come up with $700B?

I will find the source. $700B was cited in several news reports, last week.

[Greyfox]

How did you come up with $700B?

Cited on CNN tonight. U.S. needs to borrow $ 700B from China to complete the deal.

[prospector]

i agree, unemployment benefits over 52 weeks is absurd..end them

[bigmack]

I will find the source. $700B was cited in several news reports, last week.
Careful when you contact your congressperson. The taxes were extended for 2 years. The figure you're using is over 10 years. So instead of "giving-away $700B to people who don't need it" as you put it, you'd better go with $140B.

You know, just to be honest. Don't listen to everything Al Franken and the media tell you.

[boxcar]

Couldn't agree more- an absurd and incredibly stupid sell out that will fry up the incomes of U.S. great grand children. This looks as what it is- a desperate compromise to retain the benefits of the highest office, rather than what it should have been- a principled stand, with proper choices. And, where these budget cuts and choices should have been put forward, there was nada.

Increasingly, more and more persons warm to those who stand firm on their values, whether they like them or not, rather than these crafted in smoky hell compromises.

I stand with Top Czar Socialist Warren Buffet:

"They say you have to keep those tax cuts, even on the very wealthy, because that is what energizes business and capitalism."
To which Buffet replies:



"The rich are always going to say that, you know, just give us more money and we’ll go out and spend more and then it will all trickle down to the rest of you. But that has not worked the last 10 years, and I hope the American public is catching on."EXACTLY !:ThmbUp:

Let the Cons plead for the millionaires. Totally FUBARed situation.

Tuck in your Class Envy. It's dragging on the ground and you're walking on it. I"m always happy when people get to keep what is theirs. They earned it. The government didn't. End of story. Score: The People 1, Life-sucking Parasites 0.

And besides why are you happy? Everyone whose taxes won't go up at the end of the year MUST BE RICH. For years the lying dem(on)s have been telling us the Bush Tax Cuts were ONLY for the rich. So, now you're suddenly okay with that?

And one more thing because I know your memory must be failing: The Dems are still in full control in both houses. They had enough votes to allow taxes to go up at the end of the year! Why didn't they?

Boxcar

[lamboguy]

this is great for the price of gold. the only thing better will be when a republican president gets elected in 2 years.


gold is going to $1600 and beyond

[Spiderman]

Tuck in your Class Envy. It's dragging on the ground and you're walking on it. I"m always happy when people get to keep what is theirs. They earned it. The government didn't. End of story. Score: The People 1, Life-sucking Parasites 0.

And besides why are you happy? Everyone whose taxes won't go up at the end of the year MUST BE RICH. For years the lying dem(on)s have been telling us the Bush Tax Cuts were ONLY for the rich. So, now you're suddenly okay with that?

And one more thing because I know your memory must be failing: The Dems are still in full control in both houses. They had enough votes to allow taxes to go up at the end of the year! Why didn't they?

Boxcar

Hey, can you respond to any post without going politically ballistic? who are the "Life-sucking" parasites?

[bigmack]

Let the Cons plead for the millionaires. Totally FUBARed situation.
Let's see, the last time a Yank lost their cool about a Canadian legislative decision is..........Never.

Is it really that boring up there that you Canooks need to get emotionally involved in our affairs?

[JustRalph]

this is great for the price of gold. the only thing better will be when a republican president gets elected in 2 years.


gold is going to $1600 and beyond

I swear I have met Lambo, it's not a bot :lol:

[bigmack]

EXACTLY !:ThmbUp:

Let the Cons plead for the millionaires. Totally FUBARed situation.
How 'bout we compare Canadian tax rates to US and see who's supposedly FUBAR?

Canada:
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/canadiantax.png

US
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/ustax.png

Go ahead, start the outrage for Canadian millionaires. All 9 of 'em. :D

Good news. They also got the estate/death tax to hold @ 35% for the next two years.

Have you heard of death tax up there in Canada? Of course not. No such thang.

[Rookies]

Let's see, the last time a Yank lost their cool about a Canadian legislative decision is..........Never.

Is it really that boring up there that you Canooks need to get emotionally involved in our affairs?

I'm going to help you out for once. There's this big word: FAMILY. Scratch it down with the Yellow Crayola.

[ArlJim78]

He owns it now. Obama is down for tax cuts for the wealthy. As he told us a thousand times, "these are the failed policies of the last eight years", now he embraces them even though Democrats still run the show.

So we now won't have to hear about the Bush tax cuts anymore, its now the Obama/Bush tax cuts. In 2012 he'll have to run against his own tax cuts if he insists on making taxing the wealthy a main campaign promise.

[boxcar]

Hey, can you respond to any post without going politically ballistic? who are the "Life-sucking" parasites?

That institution in society that has never produced anything or generated wealth, but only knows how to take it from those who know how to do both. Anything else you want to know? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[bigmack]

I'm going to help you out for once. There's this big word: FAMILY. Scratch it down with the Yellow Crayola.
In light of the tax rate on people in Canada making over $250K being quite a bit lower than here, they must not sleep at night at the FUBAR state of your country, huh? :lol:

[Rookies]

He owns it now. Obama is down for tax cuts for the wealthy. As he told us a thousand times, "these are the failed policies of the last eight years", now he embraces them even though Democrats still run the show.

So we now won't have to hear about the Bush tax cuts anymore, its now the Obama/Bush tax cuts. In 2012 he'll have to run against his own tax cuts if he insists on making taxing the wealthy a main campaign promise.

Very true Jim an exactly why I hope the Dems scuttle this catastrophe. Are they all on the take ?

[PaceAdvantage]

<crickets>

[boxcar]

He owns it now. Obama is down for tax cuts for the wealthy. As he told us a thousand times, "these are the failed policies of the last eight years", now he embraces them even though Democrats still run the show.

So we now won't have to hear about the Bush tax cuts anymore, its now the Obama/Bush tax cuts. In 2012 he'll have to run against his own tax cuts if he insists on making taxing the wealthy a main campaign promise.

BINGO!

Yes, now for the next two years we conservatives can get to talk about the unprincipled, no-character, hypocritical liberals who extended the tax cuts on behalf of the rich. This could have never happened if it weren't for the dem(on)s selling out their lunatic fringe base by trying to protect their political careers two years from now. Just like BO threw his white granny under the bus, likewise the Democrat Party threw its base under one, too.

Merry Christmas, "progressives". :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

[FantasticDan]

Obama said he personally opposed elements of the deal, such as an extension of expiring income tax cuts at upper income levels and the more generous deal on estates. But he said he decided that an agreement with Republicans was more important than a stalemate that would have resulted in higher income taxes at all levels on Jan. 1.

"Make no mistake, allowing taxes to go up on all Americans would have raised taxes by $3,000 for a typical American family and that could cost our economy well over a million jobs," he said at the White House.

End of story.

[JustRalph]

The servers at DU are on fire..........

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9704004

I am getting spoiled......... watching this implosion....... :lol:

[boxcar]

Very true Jim an exactly why I hope the Dems scuttle this catastrophe. Are they all on the take ?

No, of course not. Some just had their angelic wings clipped, and they haven't had a chance to grow them back, yet. Others have failed to remove the tarnish off the halos, so that they can glow brightly in sunlight. Others have failed to actively pursue sainthood through the canonization process. Other than this, Dems are perfect human beings. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[Spiderman]

It ain't over, til its over! I've emailed both Senators and Congressman to vote NO!!!

All of the online media(progressive) is full of comments from people who are also outraged. Vote is not in.

[boxcar]

Obama said he personally opposed elements of the deal, such as an extension of expiring income tax cuts at upper income levels and the more generous deal on estates. But he said he decided that an agreement with Republicans was more important than a stalemate that would have resulted in higher income taxes at all levels on Jan. 1.

"Make no mistake, allowing taxes to go up on all Americans would have raised taxes by $3,000 for a typical American family and that could cost our economy well over a million jobs," he said at the White House.

End of story.

Amazing how the results of a mid-term election and the fear of a repeat performance two years hence can get even the most hardened liberals to suddenly comprehend the light. What a miraculous conversion! :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

[bigmack]

It ain't over, til its over! I've emailed both Senators and Congressman to vote NO!!!
All of the online media(progressive) is full of comments from people who are also outraged. Vote is not in.
What state are you in and I'll tell you right now how they'll vote?

http://soundpolitics.com/Carson-Karnak.jpg

[JustRalph]

Bernie says no............ :lol:

rAboE_ahSa4

[boxcar]

It ain't over, til its over! I've emailed both Senators and Congressman to vote NO!!!

All of the online media(progressive) is full of comments from people who are also outraged. Vote is not in.

You'd have better chance of spitting into the face of a CAT 5 'cane and escape blow back before getting your heroes to repent of their evil ways. :lol: :lol:

When are you going to wake up? The vast majority of pols are in the game for purely self-serving reasons. Like ol' Chucky Rangel recently stated: "I Don't Deal with Average American Citizens". Trust me when I tell you that he was speaking for the majority of politicians, most especially liberals.

Boxcar

[Jay Trotter]

Let's see, the last time a Yank lost their cool about a Canadian legislative decision is..........Never.

Is it really that boring up there that you Canooks need to get emotionally involved in our affairs?

Nice bigmack! Rookies makes a fair comment but because he's Canadian you dismiss his input!

Considering that America is often quoted as being the "World's last best hope" and the "leaders of the free world" why wouldn't we be interested in following American politics and contributing to the discussion. After all, as America goes so goes the world! Especially, if you're a neighbour!

One would think you might welcome a frank discussion with view points from outside the box. Isn't that the core value of a free society! He wasn't knocking America -- just contributing to the discussion.

You should come up some time for a visit and have a nice sugary beavertail! You might appreciate us a little more.

Just two cents from an unworthy canook as you say, eh!

Trotter

[NJ Stinks]

Bernie says no............ :lol:

rAboE_ahSa4

Bernie is absolutely right.

[Spiderman]

What state are you in and I'll tell you right now how they'll vote?

http://soundpolitics.com/Carson-Karnak.jpg

Bergen county, New Jersey. Rothman, Congressman; Sens. Lautenberg and Menendez

[bigmack]

You should come up some time for a visit and have a nice sugary beavertail! You might appreciate us a little more.
Don't be silly. I'm nuts about Western Canada. I've spent a good deal of time on Vancouver Island.

Rookies is continually worried about what is happening here but never has a sound point. The rates for "the rich" in your country should be his first priority, as I pointed out. Tough to be outraged about something when the rates in your own backyard are less. Clearly, Canadian "rich" are selfish, middle class hatin' jerks even more than the selfish, middle class hatin' jerks here. :cool:

Class warfare. I love it.

[Rookies]

Nice bigmack! Rookies makes a fair comment but because he's Canadian you dismiss his input!

Considering that America is often quoted as being the "World's last best hope" and the "leaders of the free world" why wouldn't we be interested in following American politics and contributing to the discussion. After all, as America goes so goes the world! Especially, if you're a neighbour!

One would think you might welcome a frank discussion with view points from outside the box. Isn't that the core value of a free society! He wasn't knocking America -- just contributing to the discussion.

You should come up some time for a visit and have a nice sugary beavertail! You might appreciate us a little more.

Just two cents from an unworthy canook as you say, eh!

Trotter

Don't be concerned Jay. I NEVER listen to the foolish and hypocritical jingoism here. The same group will quote ANY source from any media around the world: from Brit Congressman to Canadian doctors, to buttress the Con party line.

Oh, but if you're on the other side, suddenly you're supposed to be silent. Freedom of Speech in a Net Forum- as long as you're square with them. :bang: Laughable.

[Spiderman]

Bernie is absolutely right.

Agree. Bring it, Bernie!

It would have been so easy to win this one. Prez calls a special on tv and says:

we are facing a major budget deficit that will not be relieved by giving tax breaks to millionaires. I propose that the tax extension be continued for individuals who report earnings of less than one million. The Republicans are opposing your tax extension for the sake of their millionaire patrons. Their millionaire tax relief will cost $700 billion dollars.

The Republicans also want to deny an extension of unemployment benefits. Except, if their millionaire clients get the tax cut. As your President, I am done with the Republican, "party of NO." I was elected to end the Bush-era policies that did not work. I see NO reason to compromise on these issues.

Thank you and goodnight.

[PaceAdvantage]

Don't be concerned Jay. I NEVER listen to the foolish and hypocritical jingoism here. The same group will quote ANY source from any media around the world: from Brit Congressman to Canadian doctors, to buttress the Con party line.

Oh, but if you're on the other side, suddenly you're supposed to be silent. Freedom of Speech in a Net Forum- as long as you're square with them. :bang: Laughable.You've continued to ignore Mack's point about the rich in Canada and how their tax rate is less than here in the United States.

Why is that?

[Hank]

Agree. Bring it, Bernie!

It would have been so easy to win this one. Prez calls a special on tv and says:

we are facing a major budget deficit that will not be relieved by giving tax breaks to millionaires. I propose that the tax extension be continued for individuals who report earnings of less than one million. The Republicans are opposing your tax extension for the sake of their millionaire patrons. Their millionaire tax relief will cost $700 billion dollars.

The Republicans also want to deny an extension of unemployment benefits. Except, if their millionaire clients get the tax cut. As your President, I am done with the Republican, "party of NO." I was elected to end the Bush-era policies that did not work. I see NO reason to compromise on these issues.

Thank you and goodnight.

Quite true.This comfirms that Obama is a neoliberal corporatist,whose role in this charade is to "pretend" to opposse the financial/corporate oligarchy that owns and controls both partys.

[JustRalph]

Quite true.Obama is a neoliberal corporatist,his role in this charade is to "pretend" to opposse the financial/corporate oligarchy that owns and controls both partys.

The increasing popularity of this meme is laughable. It never occurred to you that he is just in over his inexperienced head?

You elected a guy with a hundred and eighty days of active Senate service, and ten years of community organizing. He made very few tough decisions in his entire life (unless you count whether or not to buy some blow, or stick with the weed) and he never directly supervised more than 25 people in his entire life. There is a reason Governors are considered good candidates. They have executive leadership experience.

This guy was a fraud from the beginning and you failed to see through it.

[Spiderman]

The increasing popularity of this meme is laughable. It never occurred to you that he is just in over his inexperienced head?

You elected a guy with a hundred and eighty days of active Senate service, and ten years of community organizing. He made very few tough decisions in his entire life (unless you count whether or not to buy some blow, or stick with the weed) and he never directly supervised more than 25 people in his entire life. There is a reason Governors are considered good candidates. They have executive leadership experience.

This guy was a fraud from the beginning and you failed to see through it.

Obama is an inept leader. His suck-up to obstructionists is deplorable.

Frankly, I supported his election because of total detestation for Bush and Company. I preferrred Obama's speeches to Hillary's. It was a mistake made by a majority of voters.

Now that I have owned-up to my mistake, Obama can admit to his and rescind the "negotiated" result. Or, his resignation should be ready.

[Rookies]

You've continued to ignore Mack's point about the rich in Canada and how their tax rate is less than here in the United States.

Why is that?

It's not like I agree with it. The Cons here would point out that they already contribute mightily to the 13% HST (Harmonized Sales Tax). Fewer inheritance taxes, but also no mortgage deductibility. You'd need to stack them all together to get a truer picture. But, I'm not making excuses.

No tag days will be held for the wealthy here as they rank :

No. 11: Canada

Population: 33.7 million

2009 number of millionaire households: 162,143
Percentage increase: 4.8 percent YOY
Share of country’s wealth held by millionaire households: 20 percent

"According to the Boston Consulting Group, millionaire households controlled 20 percent of the wealth in Canada last year. Despite the financial crisis, wealth in the country grew an average of 4 percent from 2007 to 2009 and is expected to continue at that pace for the next five years, according to the study."


Unlike the U.S. and because the few huge banks here were cautious lending money, the economy here is in much, better shape. There has been hardly a ripple of either slowdown, nor downward change in Toronto in the housing market. To me, it is astounding what houses cost here. I couldn't afford to rent my place!

Finally, the Cons are in control and like the Republicans, they believe, in a lessor contribution at the top.

Needless to say, I never vote for them.;)

[boxcar]

Nice bigmack! Rookies makes a fair comment but because he's Canadian you dismiss his input!

Considering that America is often quoted as being the "World's last best hope" and the "leaders of the free world" why wouldn't we be interested in following American politics and contributing to the discussion. After all, as America goes so goes the world! Especially, if you're a neighbour!

This is so true. Too bad, though, that all your "mighty fine" contributions don't count for diddly squat because you're not part of the American Dream or Family. :lol: :lol: (Of course this might change if the libs down here figure out a way on how to smuggle Canadian votes across the border. They probably figure, "who are we to disenfranchise our neighbors to the north, especially since that border thing is a mere technicality, anyway? :lol: :lol: )

One would think you might welcome a frank discussion with view points from outside the box. Isn't that the core value of a free society! He wasn't knocking America -- just contributing to the discussion.

If anyone around here wants genuine, original thinking "outside the box", I'm the guy! I have it all over "frank". :D

You should come up some time for a visit and have a nice sugary beavertail! You might appreciate us a little more.

With an invite like that, you just gave new meaning to the saying, "absence makes the heart grow fonder" -- not to mention a profoundly deeper appreciation for all the heretofore unconsidered virtues of absence, as well. :lol: :lol:

Just two cents from an unworthy canook as you say, eh!

Allow me to add my two cents worth: Your overstated humility is duly noted and nearly appreciated.

Boxcar

[Hank]

The increasing popularity of this meme is laughable. It never occurred to you that he is just in over his inexperienced head?

You elected a guy with a hundred and eighty days of active Senate service, and ten years of community organizing. He made very few tough decisions in his entire life (unless you count whether or not to buy some blow, or stick with the weed) and he never directly supervised more than 25 people in his entire life. There is a reason Governors are considered good candidates. They have executive leadership experience.

This guy was a fraud from the beginning and you failed to see through it.

That you think it is laughable, is laughable.Obama's experience or lack there of is really not germane to my central point that the corporate/financial elite owns and controls both partys.Do you disagree with this?

[Valuist]

Couldn't agree more- an absurd and incredibly stupid sell out that will fry up the incomes of U.S. great grand children. This looks as what it is- a desperate compromise to retain the benefits of the highest office, rather than what it should have been- a principled stand, with proper choices. And, where these budget cuts and choices should have been put forward, there was nada.

Increasingly, more and more persons warm to those who stand firm on their values, whether they like them or not, rather than these crafted in smoky hell compromises.

I stand with Top Czar Socialist Warren Buffet:

"They say you have to keep those tax cuts, even on the very wealthy, because that is what energizes business and capitalism."
To which Buffet replies:



"The rich are always going to say that, you know, just give us more money and we’ll go out and spend more and then it will all trickle down to the rest of you. But that has not worked the last 10 years, and I hope the American public is catching on."EXACTLY !:ThmbUp:

Let the Cons plead for the millionaires. Totally FUBARed situation.

Take anything Buffet says with a grain of salt. He was recently talking about how estate taxes should be raised significantly. Guess who'd benefit from that? A number of insurance companies owned by Berkshire Hathaway......yeah he can play the kindly old man, but he is really only talking his book.

[JustRalph]

That you think it is laughable, is laughable.Obama's experience or lack there of is really not germane to my central point that the corporate/financial elite owns and controls both partys.Do you disagree with this?

Surely it's germane. I don't totally disagree with your premise. But I also entertain the notion that in running a campaign wherein you promise the world and must know that in the long run you cannot do half of what you promise, you will some day have to pay the piper. He is out of his league, politically speaking (witness the last election and the fact that Mitch Mcconnel and Boehner are taking him to the woodshed already) and when it comes to plain ole common sense.

He really believes that America wants exactly what his Academic buddies in his Cabinet and Advisory team want. He really believed that he could do what he said during the campaign. He sat his happy ass down in the chair in the oval office and realized ( after some National Security Briefings and such) he was screwed.

He was never going to be able to close Gitmo. You just don't turn loose a couple hundred terrorists and not think it won't come back to haunt you.

He foolishly pushed through legislation that turned every decent sized business in the country against him.

He then sat on his ass while every small business in the country worried about their tax rate in 2011. Which turned every small business against him and Nancy.

He thought he would waltz in and repeal DADT with the stroke of a pen. Then found out that it won't be that easy.

He was beholden to so many different Unions and Corporations that are now against him, I don't know where he goes for cover from this point on?

He is so confused tonight and unless he makes some huge changes he is toast in 2012.

David Broder suggested he attack Iran to save his Presidency.........I hope he wasn't serious.

[bigmack]

We're talkin' about what - $70B/yr., and people are out of their minds over that amount of dough? Nah. It's the principal of it for them.

Those rich bastards slip by again. It's not fair, says "the little guy."

With all the patriotic rich nerds that want to pay extra we can chop that down to $50B/yr. (And by the way, after this passes we should 'hit-up' all those fatties that said they don't mind paying more and ensure they cough up)

And yet we've got this going on:

CBO confirms that Democrats have taken federal spending to a new and higher plateau: 24.7% of GDP in 2009, 24.1% this year, and back to an estimated 24.3% in 2011. The modern historical average is about 20.5%, and less than that if you exclude the Reagan defense buildup of the 1980s that helped to win the Cold War and let Bill Clinton reduce defense spending to 3% of GDP in the 1990s.

This means that one of every four dollars produced by the sweat of American private labor is now taxed and redistributed by 535 men and women in Congress....

As for the deficit, CBO shows that over the first three years of the Obama Presidency, 2009-2011, the federal government will borrow an estimated $3.7 trillion. That is more than the entire accumulated national debt for the first 225 years of U.S. history. By 2019, the interest payments on this debt will be larger than the budget for education, roads and all other nondefense discretionary spending....

And we're FUBAR because rich bastards slip out from a few extra shekels? Don't make me laugh.

[NJ Stinks]

Keep dreamin', Ralph.

Obama's biggest problem is that he always wants to do the right thing. That's what happens when you don't have enough "executive leadership experience".

Apparently. :rolleyes:

[JustRalph]

I am living the dream ! :ThmbUp:

[NJ Stinks]

We're talkin' about what - $70B/yr., and people are out of their minds over that amount of dough? Nah. It's the principal of it for them.

Those rich bastards slip by again. It's not fair, says "the little guy."

With all the patriotic rich nerds that want to pay extra we can chop that down to $50B/yr. (And by the way, after this passes we should 'hit-up' all those fatties that said they don't mind paying more and ensure they cough up)

And yet we've got this going on:
Quote:
CBO confirms that Democrats have taken federal spending to a new and higher plateau: 24.7% of GDP in 2009, 24.1% this year, and back to an estimated 24.3% in 2011. The modern historical average is about 20.5%, and less than that if you exclude the Reagan defense buildup of the 1980s that helped to win the Cold War and let Bill Clinton reduce defense spending to 3% of GDP in the 1990s.

This means that one of every four dollars produced by the sweat of American private labor is now taxed and redistributed by 535 men and women in Congress....

As for the deficit, CBO shows that over the first three years of the Obama Presidency, 2009-2011, the federal government will borrow an estimated $3.7 trillion. That is more than the entire accumulated national debt for the first 225 years of U.S. history. By 2019, the interest payments on this debt will be larger than the budget for education, roads and all other nondefense discretionary spending....



And we're FUBAR because rich bastards slip out from a few extra shekels? Don't make me laugh.

Does the word recession mean anything at all to you, Mack?

Don't bother answering. It's better that you continue to delude yourself into believing that Obama lives to spend your money. :rolleyes:

[NJ Stinks]

I am living the dream ! :ThmbUp:

If only we could both be living the dream at the same time.... :)

[bigmack]

Does the word recession mean anything at all to you, Mack?
You dodo's make it sound like it's the end of the earth. Billy Gates & Buffett have a net worth of the amount of loot you're talking about. Each.

Face it, your panties are awry because they're "rich" people. The amount of dough is chump change.

Save the feigned outrage for your comrades in defeat. :D

[johnhannibalsmith]

...Obama's biggest problem is that he always wants to do the right thing...

http://www.oskaya.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Obama-looking-the-girl.JPG

[JustRalph]

http://www.micleft.org/deal.jpg

[ElKabong]

This whole thing makes Obama look like Boehner & Mcconnell's house boy. Some sad figure from a 1935 movie, or Jack Benny's butler.

"Oh boy, keeep our tax breaks for the rich alive and well. And be sure to pass a health care "bill" that benefits big insurance firms the most, ok boy. Then shine our shoes before you go.

How the dems aren't incensed to the point of demanding his ouster is beyond me...it's Jimmy Carter all over again. The funny part to Independants like me is, the repugs said it would happen zackly the way it has.

Obama and his staff are the absolute dumbest bunch in the history of this system.

[Hank]

Surely it's germane. I don't totally disagree with your premise . But I also entertain the notion that in running a campaign wherein you promise the world and must know that in the long run you cannot do half of what you promise, you will some day have to pay the piper. He is out of his league, politically speaking (witness the last election and the fact that Mitch Mcconnel and Boehner are taking him to the woodshed already) and when it comes to plain ole common sense.

He really believes that America wants exactly what his Academic buddies in his Cabinet and Advisory team want. He really believed that he could do what he said during the campaign. He sat his happy ass down in the chair in the oval office and realized ( after some National Security Briefings and such) he was screwed.

He was never going to be able to close Gitmo. You just don't turn loose a couple hundred terrorists and not think it won't come back to haunt you.

He foolishly pushed through legislation that turned every decent sized business in the country against him.

He then sat on his ass while every small business in the country worried about their tax rate in 2011. Which turned every small business against him and Nancy.

He thought he would waltz in and repeal DADT with the stroke of a pen. Then found out that it won't be that easy.

He was beholden to so many different Unions and Corporations that are now against him, I don't know where he goes for cover from this point on?

He is so confused tonight and unless he makes some huge changes he is toast in 2012.

David Broder suggested he attack Iran to save his Presidency.........I hope he wasn't serious.

If you agree even[somewhat] that The corporate/financial elite basically own both partys then my assertion certainly is not laughable.And Obama's political future becomes irrelevant.His successor will be thoroughly vetted and owned also, ensuring the ongoing disconnect between the will of the people and the actions of government.Congress has an dismal 11% approval rating for a reason, the needs and will of the people that elect them are not served.

[cj's dad]

If you agree even[somewhat] that The corporate/financial elite basically own both partys then my assertion certainly is not laughable.And Obama's political future becomes irrelevant.His successor will be thoroughly vetted and owned also, ensuring the ongoing disconnect between the will of the people and the actions of government.Congress has an dismal 11% approval rating for a reason, the needs and will of the people that elect them are not served.

Have our needs ever been served ? Unless you are in the uber rich category, I think all of us are to one extent or the other owned by the Feds. It's jut a mater of where you fit in the grand scheme of things. We are so busy arguing amongst each other by race, class, religion, etc.... that the real enemy (elected officials) continue on in their self-aggrandizing ways.

[Robert Fischer]

That institution in society that has never produced anything or generated wealth, but only knows how to take it from those who know how to do both. Anything else you want to know? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Boxcar
that is a terrible thing to say about the wealthy! :lol::lol:

[ArlJim78]

I really don't get why the left would be so upset with this deal.

Income taxes stay status quo. No new taxes! good thing right?

One year 2% withholding tax holiday. more money in your pocket.

13 month extension for unemployment- the unemployed have another full year before they need to look for work.

the estate tax goes up a bit, but that only effects the evil rich.

so what's the beef? as far as I can tell the only gripe is that the rich weren't punished with higher tax rates. so even though their own situation was not worsened or actually improved, they're steaming mad because someone else got the same deal. incredible.

[lamboguy]

i wonder why everyone is in shock that obama pulled a switch. its not the first time, afganistan war still going on, guantanimo prisons still alive and well. tarp, bailouts, taxcuts and whatever he does all the same as bush. i think he is even going further than bush could ever dream of going. he is stricktly a continuation play of bush. now the next thing that is going to happen after the 2012 election when republican conservetives take over the congress and the presidency, they are going to real get you good, they are going to come in with the value added taxes, at the same time they will re instate tax credits.

this is why gold is going to $1600 and beyond

[Robert Fischer]

i wonder why everyone is in shock that obama pulled a switch. its not the first time, afganistan war still going on, guantanimo prisons still alive and well. tarp, bailouts, taxcuts and whatever he does all the same as bush. i think he is even going further than bush could ever dream of going. he is stricktly a continuation play of bush. now the next thing that is going to happen after the 2012 election when republican conservetives take over the congress and the presidency, they are going to real get you good, they are going to come in with the value added taxes, at the same time they will re instate tax credits.

this is why gold is going to $1600 and beyond

nah... fiat money is the wave of the future :liar:

[ceejay]

Okay here's what makes compromise these days.

One side says extended unemployment benefits, the other side says they cost too much.
One side says extend tax cuts, the other side says they cost too much.

Okay then let's do both. Maybe a double negative in the budget will be a positive. We are multiplying aren't we? :D :D

[schweitz]

Has anybody heard anything about whether the Alternative Minimum Tax has been patched for the tax year 2009?

www.thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/domestic-taxes/128409-lawmakers-vow-to-patch-alternative-minimum-tax

[boxcar]

I am living the dream ! :ThmbUp:

Under BO, wouldn't that be a nightmare, instead?

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Keep dreamin', Ralph.

Obama's biggest problem is that he always wants to do the right thing. That's what happens when you don't have enough "executive leadership experience".

He especially wants to do the "right" thing when his political neck is in a noose. Just look at how far right he tilted last night trying to slip out of that noose. :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

[boxcar]

If you agree even[somewhat] that The corporate/financial elite basically own both partys then my assertion certainly is not laughable.And Obama's political future becomes irrelevant.His successor will be thoroughly vetted and owned also, ensuring the ongoing disconnect between the will of the people and the actions of government.Congress has an dismal 11% approval rating for a reason, the needs and will of the people that elect them are not served.

Since when did you care about the will of the people? I didn't hear you complaining about the Dems trampling on the People's will when ObamaCare was passed. Or did I miss something?

Boxcar

[JustRalph]

Has anybody heard anything about whether the Alternative Minimum Tax has been patched for the tax year 2009?

www.thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/domestic-taxes/128409-lawmakers-vow-to-patch-alternative-minimum-tax

haven't heard a thing....... I asked my accountant to update me if any significant change occurs......knowing her.......she has forgotten about it... :bang:

[Spiderman]

Since when did you care about the will of the people? I didn't hear you complaining about the Dems trampling on the People's will when ObamaCare was passed. Or did I miss something?

Boxcar

Obama didn't get the Public Option for Health Care. The best that could be said, generally, about the HC Law is that it is a start. There are elements in the HC Law that help people with pre-existing conditions; allow for children to be covered by their parent's policy, up to age 26, et al. Where is the "trampling" on people's will?

Shouldn't you pay PA for political advertising? Near-every post of yours condemns Dems, Libs, Progressives. Implicit in your avatar is a political statement.

[boxcar]

Now that I've had some fun with liberals here over last night's events, it's time to evaluate those great bipartisan compromises to see who really came out on top. The way I look at, it was not a good night for the Repugs, despite the theatrics of the Democrat drama queens to the contrary.

Remember: The Rs wanted to make the Bush Tax Cuts permanent. That did not happen.

Remember: the Rs wanted to make any extension of UBs to be funded with TARP money. That didn't happen either. The UBs right now are "unfunded".

What did the Rs gain, therefore? After all is said and done, essentially the status quo.

In exchange for extending the status quo, the Dems got to SPEND a building full of money! (Funny how that worked.) :rolleyes: They will get to issue tax credits essentially to non-taxpayers, which amounts to welfare.

Then the Dems seized the opportunity to politically posture by lowering the payroll tax by 2%,. even though SS is basically in crisis mode. I don't know how many jobs can be created with that estimated 120 billion-dollar taxpayer "windfall". (My guess, though, are NONE.) This move proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Rs could have actually pushed for a lot more than extending the status quo! After all, if 2% is going to stimulate the economy, wouldn't have cutting income taxes across the board stimulate it even further? :bang: :bang: Of course, BO promised (and we all know how good his word is :rolleyes: ) that the [non-existent] SS "trust fund" would be funded from other sources. But he didn't say how or from what sources.

Then of course, the Dems got to extend Unemployment Benefits for a whopping 13 months -- at cost of about 700 Bil, I think it is! Apparently, a six-month extension wouldn't have been good enough? (I'm just guessing at what the rationale behind the 13-month extension was.) Assuming this is the case, then what makes anyone think that 13 months will be good enough?
Just yesterday, the tax cheat Geithner said that high unemployment will probably continue for four to five more years before it gets down to the more normal 5 to 6% range. I venture to say that we'll be looking at a lot more of these extensions. In fact, so many they will, for all practical intent and purposes, morph into welfare checks.

Bottom Line: After all is said and done and analyzed, it's clear that the Obama and his Dems, gave little but received much in return. And The Party of Stupid during his speech last night, applauded the president, thinking they have won the day! :bang: :bang: Obama and the Dems have actually gained quite a bit of political capital going forward to 2012 -- not from their lunatic fringe base -- but more importantly from more moderate Dems and from the Indies. Heck, the Democrats are already calling the Obama Tax Cuts (which they now become) a great "fiscal stimulus"! What a magical transformation the "Bush tax cuts for the rich" have undergone. :rolleyes:

It's clear once again that the Rs in the Senate don't understand what the people were saying this last election. They don't get it. They really don't. They don't understand that the people were demanding LOWER taxes, big spending cuts and the repeal of ObamaCare. Last night, we did not get our taxes lowered. All we got was the extension of the status quo. I doubt seriously that the Party of Stupid will ever come to realize that it's the Dems who must make the concessions, not the Republicans. The people in the last election did not go out to vote for conservatives so that they could compromise our values and principles away to liberal Democrats. As Rush has always said, you don't compromise with evil; you defeat it!

Sorry, conservatives, it's still not time to get giddy yet. And if I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath. The Rs didn't get it when they passed that stupid, unnecessary FDA bill and they didn't get it last night either.

Boxcar

[ArlJim78]

remember too this is still the old congress, the firebrands Repub's are waiting in the wings. lets hope they do better.

but I also agree, the Republicans got next to nothing this time.

[boxcar]

Obama didn't get the Public Option for Health Care. The best that could be said, generally, about the HC Law is that it is a start. There are elements in the HC Law that help people with pre-existing conditions; allow for children to be covered by their parent's policy, up to age 26, et al. Where is the "trampling" on people's will?

Shouldn't you pay PA for political advertising? Near-every post of yours condemns Dems, Libs, Progressives. Implicit in your avatar is a political statement.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Only "implicit" in my avatar? Wow! I see that I really have to crank it up. :lol: :lol:

As far as what was passed in that unread "health care reform bill", most Americans don't want IT. 20 states have already joined in a suit against the federal government and that number could well increase, since the Rs own 35 governorships. So, yes, this crap was forced down Americans' throat and more than a few us don't like it.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

remember too this is still the old congress, the firebrands Repub's are waiting in the wings. lets hope they do better.

but I also agree, the Republicans got next to nothing this time.

It's the senate that concerns me the most. The senate is literally loaded with RINOS. And even with the addition of the 5 or 6 new senators in January, I don't know if they'll be able to change the tone.

Boxcar

[ArlJim78]

It's the senate that concerns me the most. The senate is literally loaded with RINOS. And even with the addition of the 5 or 6 new senators in January, I don't know if they'll be able to change the tone.

Boxcar
yep, the senate is a work in progress. plenty of rinos still grazing over there.:lol:

[jognlope]

I really don't understand why anyone who already pays for insurance (govt. will help subsidize your payment according to your income) would mind the health care bill, which will spread the risk pool, keep premiums down, stop insurance abuses, trim Medicare and we've yet to see all other health cost containment that's to come. But I guess that's a bad thing somehow?

[ElKabong]

Keeps premiums down....Stop insurance abuses. ????

When you wake up, we have some coffee for you.

[Tom]

The government doesn't subsidize anyone.
TAXPAYERS do.

While we're on the subject, isn't Wikii Leaks a perfect example of why we cannot trust the government with our private health records? They can't even protect their own privacy! :lol:

[boxcar]

The government doesn't subsidize anyone.
TAXPAYERS do.

While we're on the subject, isn't Wikii Leaks a perfect example of why we cannot trust the government with our private health records? They can't even protect their own privacy! :lol:


But it's far worse than this: Have you heard of the billions and billions paper money the Feds printed that isn't any good and wasn't discovered until after it was all printed? I guess the Fed has never heard of a little item call Quality Control Procedures? :lol: :lol: :lol: Now, the dummies are trying to figure out an automated way to separate the good bills from the bad, instead of just cutting their losses and sticking all of it in an incinerator and starting from scratch.

The level of incompetence and stupidity inside government defies adequate description. Yet, they want to handle something as complex as our health issues with a one-size-fits-all approach. :bang: :bang: :bang:

Boxcar

[highnote]

I don't see the big deal with extending the tax cuts. The U.S. economy is not out of the danger zone, yet. Eventually, taxes will have to be raised to pay off debt, but for now the priority is to make sure economic activity increases.

In my opinion, Obama is being pragmatic.

The left will spin this one way and the right the other.

What I find laughable is the right is critical of Obama for doing the very thing they would want a Republican president to do. And the left is being critical of him for doing what he thinks will benefit everyone the most.

A leader has to do what he thinks is best for the long term health of the nation and not what the court of public opinion thinks. It's a thankless job.

I've seen the same thing happen here on P.A. I took a middle position on an issue and was critized from both sides of the aisle. So it is not surprising to see the same thing happening to Obama.

No leader can please everyone.

[boxcar]

I don't see the big deal with extending the tax cuts. The U.S. economy is not out of the danger zone, yet. Eventually, taxes will have to be raised to pay off debt, but for now the priority is to make sure economic activity increases.

In my opinion, Obama is being pragmatic.

The left will spin this one way and the right the other.

What I find laughable is the right is critical of Obama for doing the very thing they would want a Republican president to do. And the left is being critical of him for doing what he thinks will benefit everyone the most.

A leader has to do what he thinks is best for the long term health of the nation and not what the court of public opinion thinks. It's a thankless job.

I've seen the same thing happen here on P.A. I took a middle position on an issue and was critized from both sides of the aisle. So it is not surprising to see the same thing happening to Obama.

No leader can please everyone.

No, we're critical because of his hypocrisy and his numerous promises (pre and post-election) to raise taxes on the wealthiest Americans. And if you believe that Obama has Americans' interest at heart, I have bridge to nowhere to sell you. This is a guy who is 10000000% for Redistribution of Wealth. He HATES evil, white wealthy people. He was in a Catch-22. He knew that if he didn't extend the current tax rates, it would be political suicide.

And we're also critical of all liberal politicians because they have always portrayed the Bush tax cuts as being strictly for the rich. But that lie has been thoroughly exposed by the light of day, hasn't it?

Also, if he was so interested in the average American, why didn't he push his party months ago to extend the cuts? Would it not have been better for the economy to do this sooner rather than at the 11th hour, during the limited time this lame duck session has? Instead, they waited to see how the November elections played out. The libs were more interested in playing politics at the expense of the economy than they were in serving the best interests of Americans.

Believe this: Obama has about as much interest in the average American as Charles Rangel has. He's a political animal. That's it. His interest is primarily in protecting his own hide.

Boxcar

[highnote]

Many people try to paint Obama as liberal, but after reading his books it was clear to me that he was anything but. He is far more of a centrist that people understand. To become president, candidates have to appeal to the center and to either their constituents on the left or on the right.

Then once elected, the president has to compromise unless he is lucky enough to have a majority.

No, we're critical because of his hypocrisy and his numerous promises (pre and post-election) to raise taxes on the wealthiest Americans. And if you believe that Obama has Americans' interest at heart, I have bridge to nowhere to sell you. This is a guy who is 10000000% for Redistribution of Wealth. He HATES evil, white wealthy people. He was in a Catch-22. He knew that if he didn't extend the current tax rates, it would be political suicide.

And we're also critical of all liberal politicians because they have always portrayed the Bush tax cuts as being strictly for the rich. But that lie has been thoroughly exposed by the light of day, hasn't it?

Also, if he was so interested in the average American, why didn't he push his party months ago to extend the cuts? Would it not have been better for the economy to do this sooner rather than at the 11th hour, during the limited time this lame duck session has? Instead, they waited to see how the November elections played out. The libs were more interested in playing politics at the expense of the economy than they were in serving the best interests of Americans.

Believe this: Obama has about as much interest in the average American as Charles Rangel has. He's a political animal. That's it. His interest is primarily in protecting his own hide.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Many people try to paint Obama as liberal, but after reading his books it was clear to me that he was anything but. He is far more of a centrist that people understand. To become president, candidates have to appeal to the center and to either their constituents on the left or on the right.

Then once elected, the president has to compromise unless he is lucky enough to have a majority.

I never painted him as a "liberal" per se. I call 'em the way I see him. He's a communist. Plain and simple. He has associated and surrounded himself with Marxists his entire life. (In fact, growing up he was mentored by one.). We have obviously been reading very different things or reaching very different conclusions. He is a radical left ideologue. Period.

Tell me: Do you also believe Pelosi and Reid are centrists?

Boxcar
P.S. I'll go one step further. He has even said somewhere that when he was in college he surrounded himself with Marxist students and professors. I believe this is the primary reason he is keeping his school records under lock and key.

[highnote]

I never painted him as a "liberal" per se. I call 'em the way I see him.

I didn't say you did paint him that way.


He's a communist. Plain and simple.

That's debatable. He just extended Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. Doesn't sound like something a communist would do.

He has associated and surrounded himself with Marxists his entire life.

Ted Kennedy, Rahm Emmanuel, Hillary Clinton -- Marxists?

He is a radical left ideologue. Period.

He just extended the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. Doesn't sound like something a radical left idealogue would do.

Tell me: Do you also believe Pelosi and Reid are centrists?

Does not apply. We were talking about president.

Boxcar
P.S. I'll go one step further. He has even said somewhere that when he was in college he surrounded himself with Marxist students and professors. I believe this is the primary reason he is keeping his school records under lock and key.

You are certainly entitled to believe whatever you want. The human mind will come up with an answer to every single question asked of it -- even if the answer is wrong.

[johnhannibalsmith]

... The human mind will come up with an answer to every single question asked of it ...

Mine's lucky to remember the question.

[ElKabong]

Many people try to paint Obama as liberal, but after reading his books it was clear to me that he was anything but. .

What he is, is a dumbass. Anyone who calls the opposition party "hostage takers" in his presser, is a dumbass. It shows his lack of experience as well.

A weak dumbass. A one term, weak dumbass. Good thing he kept those promises like closing down evil old Getmo. Otherwise he'd be a lying one term weak dumbass

[highnote]

You are certainly entitled to an opinion. He may be a dumbass who lacks experience -- but what does that say about the other candidates?

People thought Bush was stupid. I've always said he was as smart as he needed to be. He won the election -- twice! How dumb can these two men really be?

What he is, is a dumbass. Anyone who calls the opposition party "hostage takers" in his presser, is a dumbass. It shows his lack of experience as well.

A weak dumbass. A one term, weak dumbass. Good thing he kept those promises like closing down evil old Getmo. Otherwise he'd be a lying one term weak dumbass

[ArlJim78]

What he is, is a dumbass. Anyone who calls the opposition party "hostage takers" in his presser, is a dumbass. It shows his lack of experience as well
I saw that. His press conference was a jaw dropper. This is from the great orator, the uniter, the one who says we have to leave the old Washington ways behind and work together in a bi-partisan fashion. what an intemperate embarrassment. less than two years to go now though.

[Hank]

Since when did you care about the will of the people? I didn't hear you complaining about the Dems trampling on the People's will when ObamaCare was passed. Or did I miss something?

Boxcar

Come on boxie, think for yourself.Dems did not trample the will of the people on healthcare, the lobbyist[bag-men for the corporate elite] who hijacked the legislation did.Our true system of governance is corporate fascism rather poorly disguised as democracy.

[NJ Stinks]

Then of course, the Dems got to extend Unemployment Benefits for a whopping 13 months -- at cost of about 700 Bil, I think it is! Apparently, a six-month extension wouldn't have been good enough? (I'm just guessing at what the rationale behind the 13-month extension was.) Assuming this is the case, then what makes anyone think that 13 months will be good enough?
Boxcar

You either have no idea or just don't care. Either way - this is a fine example of your obvious extreme prejudice. The estimated cost of the unemployment benefits extension is around $56B - not your laughable guess ($700B).

In fact, the whole tax deal costs about $700B.

Look something up once in a while before you go off half-cocked. And provide a link or two once in a while.

It's called credibility.
___________________________________________

Tax cut deal and surprise stimulus – the cost (http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2010/12/07/tax-cut-deal-and-surprise-stimulus-the-cost/)

Posted: December 7th, 2010 05:01 PM ET





http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/12/07/gal.cnnmoney.taxcuts.jpg
FROM CNN MONEY: There is no official cost estimate for the compromise proposal. These numbers are ballpark estimates based on analysis of similar proposals.


http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2010/12/07/tax-cut-deal-and-surprise-stimulus-the-cost/
_____________________________________________

3) Unemployment insurance gets extended for 13 months: Most observers -- myself included -- thought the federal boost to unemployment insurance (which allowed jobless workers in states with high levels of unemployment to collect insurance for up to 99 weeks) would lapse. At best, there'd be another two- or three-month extension. In perhaps the most important part of the deal, there's going to be a 13-month extension at a cost of $56 billion.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/12/an_imperfect_but_not-that-bad.html

[boxcar]

I didn't say you did paint him that way.

And I didn't say I did. :rolleyes:

That's debatable. He just extended Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. Doesn't sound like something a communist would do.

Most any politician would do whatever it takes to save his own political bacon. Is that too hard for you to understand? Were you around on the night of 11/9? Did you happen to catch the historical results? :bang: :bang: :bang: You don't think those results sent shock waves through the Democrat Party?

Ted Kennedy, Rahm Emmanuel, Hillary Clinton -- Marxists?

Here, try this list on for size:

Frank Marshall Davis introduced to Obama by his granddaddy. Marshall was Obama's mentor. He was a black poet, journalist and member of the Communist Party USA (CPUSA).

Khalid al-Mansour, Black Panther Lawyer, racist muslim demagogue, college professor

Bill Ayers -- college professor and unrepentant terrorist bomber of Pentagon and U.S. Capitol building.

Tony Resko, Syrian-born real estate developer, slumlord and convicted felon (bribery).

Rev. Wright -- BO's pastor for 20+ years who preached the Black Liberation Theology "gospel" of hate for white people.

George Soros multi-billionaire and major contributor to DEMS and BO. A communist-globalist who wants to move the U.S. in the direction of globalism.

BO's stepfather -- a known commie.

In BO's book Dreams from my Father, he wrote:

To avoid be taken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists.

Obama met Dr. John Drew at Occidental College. Drew was a dyed-in-the-wool Marxist and founder of the only Marxist student association on the campus at that time. In an interview with Scott Baker and Liz Stephans with Dr. Drew and B-Cast, "Was Obama a Committed Marxist in College?", Drew said of himself:

I did not take my status of a Marxist revolutionary lightly in the fall of 1980. To me it was serious business. It meant that I was an enemy, in a sense, of the U.S. government. It meant that I was an enemy of wealthy people who were ruling the country. And it meant that I was willing to make whatever sacrifices...to confront the power structure. So for me, being a Marxist college student wasn't sort of a light-hearted walk in the park. It was a dead serious statement that was impacting my career, my relationships and my studies.

Drew went on to recall about Obama, with whom he often spent long hours discussing their mutual interests in Marxist theories:

He wasn't an idle explorer of intellectual Marxism. I know this is kind of incendiary, but he was basically a Marxist-Leninist. He believed that there was a revolutionary class that was going to turn around our whole nation, redistribute wealth, change control over private property.

I would also remind you against this historical backdrop, Obama's own admission that he thought the U.S. Constitution was "fundamentally flawed", which is hardly a moderate or centrist attitude about the Law of the Land.

And I would also remind you that after his election, he promised that he would "fundamentally transform the face of America" -- things which only a radical could say.

Finally, even his pastor of 20+ years -- you know the creep who called on God to damn America -- admitted, too, that he was enthralled with Marxism, which comes as no surprise at all to me, since Black Liberation Theology is hardly biblical, evangelical Christianity. Wright said once:

My work with liberation theology with Latin American theologians, with the Black Theology Project and with the Cuban Council of Churches taught me thirty years ago the importance of Marx and the Marxist analysis of the social realities of the vulnerable and the oppressed who were trying desperately to break free of the political economics undergirded by the country that were choking them and cutting off any hope of a possible future where all the people would benefit.

Pamela Geller, "New Controversial Video Obama's Radical Marxist Pastor, "Land of the Greed and Home of the Slave".

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/32661/

So, John, in my opinion you are delusional to believe that BO is a moderate or centrist. And I strongly suspect that I could provide you with even considerable more evidence to try to shock your brain back into reality, but it would be to no avail. But I know what I believe and why I believe what I do about this man. This Barrack Hussein Obama is the the Number One Public Enemy of America and all she stand for -- our values, our traditions, our freedoms, our individual liberties and our economic system. He's a firm believer in collectivism and wealth redistribution. He truly is out to fundamentally change America because he doesn't like America the way it is.

Does not apply. We were talking about president.

I asked about Pelosi and Reid out of curiosity. Are you ashamed or scared to take a stand on them?

You are certainly entitled to believe whatever you want. The human mind will come up with an answer to every single question asked of it -- even if the answer is wrong.

Yes, the human heart and mind is exceedingly deceiving. But remember: You put your pants on just like I do mine. The only difference between you and me is that I can support my opinions with pretty strong evidence, whereas you seem to be capable of only looking at issues and people superficially. Therefore, you tend to reach naive conclusions.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

You either have no idea or just don't care. Either way - this is a fine example of your obvious extreme prejudice. The estimated cost of the unemployment benefits extension is around $56B - not your laughable guess ($700B).

In fact, the whole tax deal costs about $700B.

Look something up once in a while before you go off half-cocked. And provide a link or two once in a while.

It's called credibility.
___________________________________________

Tax cut deal and surprise stimulus – the cost (http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2010/12/07/tax-cut-deal-and-surprise-stimulus-the-cost/)

Posted: December 7th, 2010 05:01 PM ET





http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/12/07/gal.cnnmoney.taxcuts.jpg
FROM CNN MONEY: There is no official cost estimate for the compromise proposal. These numbers are ballpark estimates based on analysis of similar proposals.


http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2010/12/07/tax-cut-deal-and-surprise-stimulus-the-cost/
_____________________________________________

3) Unemployment insurance gets extended for 13 months: Most observers -- myself included -- thought the federal boost to unemployment insurance (which allowed jobless workers in states with high levels of unemployment to collect insurance for up to 99 weeks) would lapse. At best, there'd be another two- or three-month extension. In perhaps the most important part of the deal, there's going to be a 13-month extension at a cost of $56 billion.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/12/an_imperfect_but_not-that-bad.html

Actually, the cost will probably be a lot more. I originally meant to say 70 bil, instead of 700 bil. I've heard and read of estimates as high as 140 bil. In any case, it ain't gonna be cheap. But I have no fear because Lord NJ and Lord Mosty and Lord Hcap who want to be lords over everyone's else's conscience are going to pool your money together, along with other compassionate socialists, and voluntarily contribute extra money every month to the IRS to pay for it all. I can sleep so much better now. :rolleyes:

And, by the way, you're the last person on this planet to preach to anyone about credibility or going off "half cocked". You have zero credibility. For you believed and preached that the Bush tax cuts were only for the rich, did you not? You hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye before pointing to any specks in mine!

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Come on boxie, think for yourself.Dems did not trample the will of the people on healthcare, the lobbyist[bag-men for the corporate elite] who hijacked the legislation did.Our true system of governance is corporate fascism rather poorly disguised as democracy.

So, I'll ask you one more time: Why did you talk as though you cared about the will of the people? I'm still awaiting your answer, especially now in light of your latest revelation. Start thinking of an answer for yourself!

Boxcar

[bigmack]

"The Base" is blown to smithereens.

HW3a704cZlc

[NJ Stinks]

And, by the way, you're the last person on this planet to preach to anyone about credibility or going off "half cocked". You have zero credibility. For you believed and preached that the Bush tax cuts were only for the rich, did you not? You hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye before pointing to any specks in mine!

Boxcar

You are right, Boxcar. No doubt Bush would have limited those tax cuts to the lower 98% if at all possible.

Especially the Capital Gains tax cut. :lol:

[highnote]

WOW Thanks for the long reply! Wish I time to read it!! Seriously. I appreciate you taking time to research all that, but there are not enough hours in the day for me to finish the top 10 things on my priority list, let alone reply to this post. Hope you understand. One or two questions I can deal with between breaks at work, but to write a 500 word essay every time you reply to me is out of the question.

And I didn't say I did. :rolleyes:



Most any politician would do whatever it takes to save his own political bacon. Is that too hard for you to understand? Were you around on the night of 11/9? Did you happen to catch the historical results? :bang: :bang: :bang: You don't think those results sent shock waves through the Democrat Party?



Here, try this list on for size:

Frank Marshall Davis introduced to Obama by his granddaddy. Marshall was Obama's mentor. He was a black poet, journalist and member of the Communist Party USA (CPUSA).

Khalid al-Mansour, Black Panther Lawyer, racist muslim demagogue, college professor

Bill Ayers -- college professor and unrepentant terrorist bomber of Pentagon and U.S. Capitol building.

Tony Resko, Syrian-born real estate developer, slumlord and convicted felon (bribery).

Rev. Wright -- BO's pastor for 20+ years who preached the Black Liberation Theology "gospel" of hate for white people.

George Soros multi-billionaire and major contributor to DEMS and BO. A communist-globalist who wants to move the U.S. in the direction of globalism.

BO's stepfather -- a known commie.

In BO's book Dreams from my Father, he wrote:

To avoid be taken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists.

Obama met Dr. John Drew at Occidental College. Drew was a dyed-in-the-wool Marxist and founder of the only Marxist student association on the campus at that time. In an interview with Scott Baker and Liz Stephans with Dr. Drew and B-Cast, "Was Obama a Committed Marxist in College?", Drew said of himself:

I did not take my status of a Marxist revolutionary lightly in the fall of 1980. To me it was serious business. It meant that I was an enemy, in a sense, of the U.S. government. It meant that I was an enemy of wealthy people who were ruling the country. And it meant that I was willing to make whatever sacrifices...to confront the power structure. So for me, being a Marxist college student wasn't sort of a light-hearted walk in the park. It was a dead serious statement that was impacting my career, my relationships and my studies.

Drew went on to recall about Obama, with whom he often spent long hours discussing their mutual interests in Marxist theories:

He wasn't an idle explorer of intellectual Marxism. I know this is kind of incendiary, but he was basically a Marxist-Leninist. He believed that there was a revolutionary class that was going to turn around our whole nation, redistribute wealth, change control over private property.

I would also remind you against this historical backdrop, Obama's own admission that he thought the U.S. Constitution was "fundamentally flawed", which is hardly a moderate or centrist attitude about the Law of the Land.

And I would also remind you that after his election, he promised that he would "fundamentally transform the face of America" -- things which only a radical could say.

Finally, even his pastor of 20+ years -- you know the creep who called on God to damn America -- admitted, too, that he was enthralled with Marxism, which comes as no surprise at all to me, since Black Liberation Theology is hardly biblical, evangelical Christianity. Wright said once:

My work with liberation theology with Latin American theologians, with the Black Theology Project and with the Cuban Council of Churches taught me thirty years ago the importance of Marx and the Marxist analysis of the social realities of the vulnerable and the oppressed who were trying desperately to break free of the political economics undergirded by the country that were choking them and cutting off any hope of a possible future where all the people would benefit.

Pamela Geller, "New Controversial Video Obama's Radical Marxist Pastor, "Land of the Greed and Home of the Slave".

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/32661/

So, John, in my opinion you are delusional to believe that BO is a moderate or centrist. And I strongly suspect that I could provide you with even considerable more evidence to try to shock your brain back into reality, but it would be to no avail. But I know what I believe and why I believe what I do about this man. This Barrack Hussein Obama is the the Number One Public Enemy of America and all she stand for -- our values, our traditions, our freedoms, our individual liberties and our economic system. He's a firm believer in collectivism and wealth redistribution. He truly is out to fundamentally change America because he doesn't like America the way it is.



I asked about Pelosi and Reid out of curiosity. Are you ashamed or scared to take a stand on them?



Yes, the human heart and mind is exceedingly deceiving. But remember: You put your pants on just like I do mine. The only difference between you and me is that I can support my opinions with pretty strong evidence, whereas you seem to be capable of only looking at issues and people superficially. Therefore, you tend to reach naive conclusions.

Boxcar

[Hank]

So, I'll ask you one more time: Why did you talk as though you cared about the will of the people? I'm still awaiting your answer, especially now in light of your latest revelation. Start thinking of an answer for yourself!

Boxcar

OK......Well ahh I see your lobotomy went well. I'm sure your an excellent driver.

[Tom]

But it's far worse than this: Have you heard of the billions and billions paper money the Feds printed that isn't any good and wasn't discovered until after it was all printed? I guess the Fed has never heard of a little item call Quality Control Procedures? :lol: :lol: :lol: Now, the dummies are trying to figure out an automated way to separate the good bills from the bad, instead of just cutting their losses and sticking all of it in an incinerator and starting from scratch.

The morons can't even print free money right!
Hey, use it to pay off China!

[jognlope]

Whew so what if he used the hostage taker description. You're just harping and you have a personal problem with Obama I can't figure out and don't want to go there! Nancy Pelosi could have set the agenda for a vote before the elections. Maybe with the oil spill it got waylayed. There's something wrong here, and stinks with your comments.

[delayjf]

I'm sure CA and NY are loving this deal, Millionaires get to keep and spend more money which translates into higher tax revenues by the States.

[Tom]

And jobs will be growing on trees!


God Bless us, everyone.



:D

[rastajenk]

He just told every potential terrorist that we will deal with them in a hostage situation if the safety of the hostages is involved. When is it never involved?

I know that some may think that's a bit of a stretch, but Presidents, especially Presidents known for their keen intellect and oratorical skills, should be a little less loose with the lips. I'm confidant that if Bush stood up there and was that careless, Bushbashers would be over the moon.

[Spiderman]

Oberman is correct. Congress and Senate should nullify agreement.

[boxcar]

WOW Thanks for the long reply! Wish I time to read it!! Seriously. I appreciate you taking time to research all that, but there are not enough hours in the day for me to finish the top 10 things on my priority list, let alone reply to this post. Hope you understand. One or two questions I can deal with between breaks at work, but to write a 500 word essay every time you reply to me is out of the question.

Yes, I understand perfectly. Your time only allows you to entertain your delusions about Obama. Who am I to strip you of your threadbare security blanket?

Boxcar

[boxcar]

You are right, Boxcar. No doubt Bush would have limited those tax cuts to the lower 98% if at all possible.

Especially the Capital Gains tax cut. :lol:

He did what was eminently fair. He didn't discriminate against the classes. He was an equal opportunity CEO. He treated all citizens equally. He gave all taxpayers across the board reductions, which the Democrat controlled congress approved, by the way. :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

[boxcar]

OK......Well ahh I see your lobotomy went well. I'm sure your an excellent driver. (emphasis mine)

I'm even better at grammar than you are. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[Tom]

As the worm squirms....this is great TV! :lol:

[bigmack]

Maybe with the oil spill it got waylayed. There's something wrong here, and stinks.
Well it is wrong but I wouldn't go so far as to say it stinks. It's spelled waylaid. :jump:

[jognlope]

A lot of those Dems pushed not bring tax cuts for middle class to vote before Nov. elections because of business constituency. Their fault and Nancy isn't owning up.

[bigmack]

Oberman is correct. Congress and Senate should nullify agreement.
Have it your way and the bottom tax bracket will go from 10% to 15%.

Have you no compassion for the working man and the less fortunate in society?

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/boss1.gif

[boxcar]

Have it your way and the bottom tax bracket will go from 10% to 15%.

Have you no compassion for the working man and the less fortunate in society?

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/boss1.gif

Heck, Mack, that's only a 50% increase for the bottom rung of the rich class.
BO and his gang should really double down and tack a surcharge onto the tax increase if they don't extend the cuts. Everyone who is rich deserves to have taxes raised.

And, Mack, you're not understanding something fundamentally important here: Liberals all these years have been calling these the "Bush tax cuts for the rich" because on Uranus where they live anyone who pays taxes must be rich -- otherwise, how would they get any money to pay taxes in the first place? Everything really is relative, you know? :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

[boxcar]

A lot of those Dems pushed not bring tax cuts for middle class to vote before Nov. elections because of business constituency. Their fault and Nancy isn't owning up.

Yeah, right. That biz constituency hasn't gone away after the elections, have they? :bang: :bang:

They waited for the outcome of those elections to see which way the political winds would be blowing and whether or not they would be hurricane force. :D Now that they have their answer, the fun begins.

There's a perverse side to me that is hoping and praying that the deal BO cut with the gutless, brainless Repugs in the senate falls through; for there's a new gang arriving in town very soon. Besides...Obama (the great unifier :rolleyes: ) did say yesterday that he's spoiling for a fight with Republicans. I think the Rs should oblige him come January. I can't think of a better way to kick off the New Year.

Boxcar

[schweitz]

haven't heard a thing....... I asked my accountant to update me if any significant change occurs......knowing her.......she has forgotten about it... :bang:


Read in the paper this morning that the AMT patch is in the recent tax agreement.

[JustRalph]

Read in the paper this morning that the AMT patch is in the recent tax agreement.

Let's git r done............ :ThmbUp:

[Spiderman]

Have it your way and the bottom tax bracket will go from 10% to 15%.

Have you no compassion for the working man and the less fortunate in society?

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/boss1.gif
A new tax law can be enacted in 2011 by reconciliation, same way that Bush-era tax was enacted. Ditto for extending unemployment benefits.

Senior citizens were ignored in this great capitulation. latest I heard is that Dems want to negotiate and have Obama watch and learn.

[jognlope]

Whew Lawrence McOnnell looked he was going to blow his stack when Alan Grayson failed to acknowledge that to let tax cuts expire, the bottom earners would get a 50% tax hike. Go Larry! He looks like he could play a general in the German army when he gets all fumed up.

[GaryG]

Over at DU they about ready for a Jim Jones cocktail party. Many threads with the f-word and general gnashing of teeth. All they can do now is relax and enjoy it. They would like Grayson to challenge Barry in the primary. What a scene that would be.

[boxcar]

Over at DU they about ready for a Jim Jones cocktail party. Many threads with the f-word and general gnashing of teeth. All they can do now is relax and enjoy it. They would like Grayson to challenge Barry in the primary. What a scene that would be.

I think it would even better if Reid or Pelosi challenged Obama. Talk about a side-splitting sideshow of biblical proportions... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

[johnhannibalsmith]

... They would like Grayson to challenge Barry in the primary...

Hey Boxcar - get on the hotline and put this into a prayer for me.

[boxcar]

Hey Boxcar - get on the hotline and put this into a prayer for me.

Heck no...put in your own prayer requests. I'm rootin' for Pelosi AND Reid. In fact, one could run for prez and the other for the vice slot. :lol: :lol: :lol: It couldn't possibly get any better than that. I would confidently predict a Republican victory of biblical proportions if this were to happen, even if the Repug presidential candidate were Palin. She would have more smarts in her pinky toe than the "dynamic duo" bundled together would have in the entire package. :lol: :lol: :lol: There wouldn't be very many voters out there willing to touch that kind of junk with a ten foot pole. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Boxcar (whose off to his prayer closet)

[Spiderman]

People's voice is heard. Dems were told by Biden, "it's a take it or leave it deal." You probably know by now, the Dems said, " we leave it." Hoorah.

Hey, Boxcar, let's you and me negotiate the best deal. I favor tax cuts - up to $500k earners for one year; extension of employment insurance for six months with qualifying proof that individual is in need; seniors getting $250 payment; approval of the fund for people who worked at Ground Zero; no payroll deduction or anything that will be negative for funding Social Security. We can also discuss ways to improve the economy.

[boxcar]

People's voice is heard. Dems were told by Biden, "it's a take it or leave it deal." You probably know by now, the Dems said, " we leave it." Hoorah.

Hey, Boxcar, let's you and me negotiate the best deal. I favor tax cuts - up to $500k earners for one year; extension of employment insurance for six months with qualifying proof that individual is in need; seniors getting $250 payment; approval of the fund for people who worked at Ground Zero; no payroll deduction or anything that will be negative for funding Social Security. We can also discuss ways to improve the economy.

Sounds like you may have more sense in your pinky toe than does the entire Democrat Party. :ThmbUp: But I ain't so sure about cappin' those Bush tax cuts because that would negatively impact numerous small businesses. Don't forget: Even sticking with the status quo (i.e. current tax rates) really isn't going to stimulate the economy. The one thing, though, that would give a huge shot of adrenaline to this anemic, tube-stuffed economy is an actual tax cut -- something I suggested two years ago.

Boxcar

[Spiderman]

Sounds like you may have more sense in your pinky toe than does the entire Democrat Party. :ThmbUp: But I ain't so sure about cappin' those Bush tax cuts because that would negatively impact numerous small businesses. Don't forget: Even sticking with the status quo (i.e. current tax rates) really isn't going to stimulate the economy. The one thing, though, that would give a huge shot of adrenaline to this anemic, tube-stuffed economy is an actual tax cut -- something I suggested two years ago.

Boxcar
Tax cut is fine, but not for millionaires. Business can receive a tax credit, instead of de-funding Social Security by reduced payroll tax.

Country needs jobs, not just the pick and axe construction variety. What incentive can be provided for companies to bring work back from China and other off-shore locales?

[boxcar]

Tax cut is fine, but not for millionaires. Business can receive a tax credit, instead of de-funding Social Security by reduced payroll tax.

Country needs jobs, not just the pick and axe construction variety. What incentive can be provided for companies to bring work back from China and other off-shore locales?

Oh...that's easy. You want an incentive, eh? Here's a tax-oriented incentive for you: Drop the Marxist-oriented, loophole-filled, complex, incomprehensible income tax system and adopt the more equitable, simple and transparent Fair Tax in its place. Businesses would be able to lower prices immediately since they would no longer have to factor in their taxes into their costs, which are only passed on to consumers in the final selling prices. How's that for starters?

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Tax cut is fine, but not for millionaires. Business can receive a tax credit, instead of de-funding Social Security by reduced payroll tax.

Country needs jobs, not just the pick and axe construction variety. What incentive can be provided for companies to bring work back from China and other off-shore locales?

Those "millionaires" should be included in all tax cuts because they are the JOB CREATORS. They actually contribute to society as opposed to those who only know how to leech. We should reward success and punish failure. We should reward contributors and punish the chronic takers. We should reward the water carriers and punish the idle sideline bystanders.

Boxcar

[JustRalph]

I believe in one simple concept


Whomever earns the money, should be allowed to keep it.


Nobody, not even the Government should be able to take it beyond the basic needs of Government. Too much is wasted on bullshit. When the Bullshit is gone, so will be my opposition to higher taxes. Until then...... not a damn penny more.

[Spiderman]

Those "millionaires" should be included in all tax cuts because they are the JOB CREATORS. They actually contribute to society as opposed to those who only know how to leech. We should reward success and punish failure. We should reward contributors and punish the chronic takers. We should reward the water carriers and punish the idle sideline bystanders.

Boxcar

Fine, let the "millionaire" job creators prove that they create jobs. Is a job creator Lebron James who would pay $600k less in tax if there was no cap; hedge fund managers and stock manipulators who bet that stocks will fail; you can probably name quite a few category of millionaire who does not create jobs.

Let's clean-up the fraud in welfare and scamming for government dole. I'm with you on that. Regulations need to be tightened. A one year moraturium on open immigration while mechanisms are put in place would address that issue. As would, severely fining employers who hire illegals.

Banks, the TBTF-type, are responsible for much of the economic malaise. Set regulation to minimize size and that they must have capitalization to back their own loans, instead of getting bail-outs.

Sorry, if I don't respond until tomorrow. Have a good night.

[GaryG]

The only truly fair way would be the Flat Tax. No deductions, no loopholes. Everyone pays the same % whether they flip burgers or play QB in the NFL. There would be a lot of govt accountants and clerks that would have to find real jobs. Anyone skillful enough or fortunate enough to earn big bucks is entitled to keep them, as long as he pays his tax. Screw this income redistribution.

[boxcar]

The only truly fair way would be the Flat Tax. No deductions, no loopholes. Everyone pays the same % whether they flip burgers or play QB in the NFL. There would be a lot of govt accountants and clerks that would have to find real jobs. Anyone skillful enough or fortunate enough to earn big bucks is entitled to keep them, as long as he pays his tax. Screw this income redistribution.

Flat Tax is still is a stinkin' income tax, and companies are still coerced collection agents for the IRS, and we would still have tax forms to fill out, etc., etc. . Quite frankly, the only fair way is the Fair Tax. Everyone can control their own tax liability by how much they consume. The People are in control, not the government. Consumption-based taxes work just fine at the state level; therefore, there is no reason to believe they wouldn't work on a national level.

Boxcar

[fast4522]

The only truly fair way would be the Flat Tax. No deductions, no loopholes. Everyone pays the same % whether they flip burgers or play QB in the NFL. There would be a lot of govt accountants and clerks that would have to find real jobs. Anyone skillful enough or fortunate enough to earn big bucks is entitled to keep them, as long as he pays his tax. Screw this income redistribution.

Exactly right, and the real beauty is that everyone pays. To put the IRS into the unemployment line would be a tremendous savings to the taxpayer. The flat tax in this country would stir such a controversy in Europe that they would hate us because how bad they would feel what they do not have. It is also the proverbial wooden stake in the vampire's heart (liberals), main reason they would fight it with the last vestige of their lives.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Flat Tax is still is a stinkin' income tax, and companies are still coerced collection agents for the IRS, and we would still have tax forms to fill out, etc., etc. . Quite frankly, the only fair way is the Fair Tax. Everyone can control their own tax liability by how much they consume. The People are in control, not the government. Consumption-based taxes work just fine at the state level; therefore, there is no reason to believe they wouldn't work on a national level.

Boxcar

I've never liked the income tax because I'm not sure that either the flat or the progressive systems are very fair because they are both exploitable - on both end - the giver and the taker.

I'm not off my rocker enough yet to think that the Fed could purge itself enough to scale back federal taxation quite the way I'd prefer to see - so I'm starting to see this Consumer Tax concept as a realistic alternative. Note alternative, as in to replace - none of this adding a VAT and then as part of the bill, the current income system is dismantled a year later or some shit that gives them cover to implement both.

I could see a progressive-esque system being applied to a consumer tax - with basic essentials untaxed and distinctly and unequivocally luxury purchases being taxed at a higher rate (ie, yacht #2, another Rembrandt for the personal collection, Anna Nicole Smith, you know...).

[nijinski]

Have it your way and the bottom tax bracket will go from 10% to 15%.

Have you no compassion for the working man and the less fortunate in society?

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/boss1.gif

I don't know which photo is more frightening his or Calvin's.

[boxcar]

I've never liked the income tax because I'm not sure that either the flat or the progressive systems are very fair because they are both exploitable - on both end - the giver and the taker.

BINGO! Someone who gets it.

Liberals would be loathe to give up the progressive scheme because the government would lose too much power to the people. This is the crux of the matter. The government would no longer be able to experiment with their nefarious social engineering schemes, or plot and implement creative ways to redistribute wealth or administer welfare aid through "tax credits" to those who don't pay taxes, etc. This is why, in my opinion, ALL FORMS of income tax should be abolished and not even tabled for reform talks.

A consumption-based tax wouldn't encounter any of these problems. Coming right out the chute, all taxpayers would be anonymous or at least virtually so! Taxpayers' privacy rights are restored because we wouldn't have Big Brother, through the arm of the IRS, tracking our every income moves.

There's nothing simpler than a consumption-based tax system. No paperwork. No forms. No fuss. No muss. No filings. No IRS. No record-keeping. No pricey accountants. As stated previously, the system would be as straightforward and transparent as paying any state sales tax currently is.

Since we don't encounter problems paying sales taxes on a pay-as-you-go basis on the state level, there's nothing to make me think that adopting such a consumption-based system on a national level would not be just as easy. Heck, we already pay federal SALES taxes whenever we buy gasoline, cigarettes, alcohol, etc. Since we don't have problems paying the feds taxes when we buy these kinds of items, why would we encounter any problem by extending the fed tax to all items!?

Frankly, I cannot for the life of me figure out why any true conservative would still want to cling to any form of an income tax system. Maybe some conservative will step up to the plate and expound for me all the supposed virtues of a flat tax system v. the fair tax. I must be missing something really important here. I gotta think that there must be some humongous advantage to a flat tax system that I'm missing in order for people to favor flying in the face of the K.I.S.S. principle, which the Fair Tax epitomizes.

I could see a progressive-esque system being applied to a consumer tax - with basic essentials untaxed and distinctly and unequivocally luxury purchases being taxed at a higher rate (ie, yacht #2, another Rembrandt for the personal collection, Anna Nicole Smith, you know...).

Again, I don't think the wealthy should be "punished" for just being rich. Everyone should be treated EQUALLY. As a nation, we really must make a concerted effort to move away from all the innumerable double standards we employ in our every day living. However, I can see justification for low income people to have a "progressive" form of tax exemption or exception. The onus would be on them and them only to file forms with the government and then the government could issue them a high end/high tech secure tax exempt or exception card that could be presented to the cashier upon checkout. No card. No tax relief. Moreover, since all cards would be on file with whatever agency, it would be easy to detect fraud or abuse since a low income person would be expected to make purchases that would not exceed a certain amount annually. In their case and theirs only, all purchases would be tracked in order to detect fraud or abuse. If the tracking agency sees that a person exceeded the expected limit, the card holder would be notified and expected to give an accounting for how someone with a family of 4, making only 25K per year was able to make $37,000. in purchases, for example. If the card holder didn't respond within the stipulated time period, his or her TE number would become null and void. Ditto if the person was unable to offer a satisfactory explanation.

But I digress...This is all theoretical. I don't believe we'll ever see anything in this country but a progressive income tax system for the reasons stated above and even prior to this post. The current system is all about power and who gets to have it. It's that simple. Karl Marx fully understood this.

Boxcar

[johnhannibalsmith]

....

Again, I don't think the wealthy should be "punished" for just being rich. Everyone should be treated EQUALLY.

...Boxcar

Well I agree. But in trying to be reasonable, I think that this would be somewhat of the standard - you aren't being punished for being wealthy or rich, you are being punished for being a consumer of the most extravagant, opulent luxuries befitting only the flamboyantly RichieRich. A trivial counterweight that almost certainly wouldn't be an impediment on that consumer's actions barring the principled stance, someone spending $685,000 for a Ferrari seems a reasonable target. Increasing the tax itself by, say, 50% on that tag presumably makes a bigger difference to the recipient (or so says the poor guy that has barely an income liability) than the payee.