View Full Version : World's Richest Dirt Races Lack Appeal
'The failure of Breeders' Cup Ltd. and the Japan Racing Association to attract more than one foreign runner to the world's two richest dirt races provides some insight as to what the world at large thinks of dirt racing. '
http://drf.com/blogs/worlds-richest-dirt-races-lack-appeal
andymays
12-04-2010, 11:09 AM
The Breeders Cup at Churchill was extremely successful. Did you miss that?
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A Fair and Balanced Cup | Daily Racing Form
http://www.drf.com/blogs/fair-and-balanced-cup
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The Breeders Cup has already stated that they will not return to a synthetic surface.
Breeders Cup has No Plans to return to Tracks with Synthetic Surfaces
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76817
Shuback writes clueless article after clueless article. Why should we care what the rest of the world prefers? You don't see the MLS surpassing the NFL or NBA, do you? Hell, they can't even pass the NHL.
joanied
12-04-2010, 11:33 AM
Well, the last thing I'm concerned with is attracting foreign runners...I could care less if they come here for the BC dirt races...and coming here when they ran on SA's rubber gave OUR horses the disadvantage...I'd rather have not as many Euro horses for the BC, than to not have some of our best horses sit it out because of the synthetic surface.
Hell, they pulled Workforce from his race because they didn't like the condition of the TURF course...they don't like dirt, they don't like our turf...ask me if I care?:D let them stay home...IMO, we have enough good horses to fill the BC dirt races...and the Euro's can still come for the turf races...and...they have run their horses on dirt here before and done pretty good...for this year's BC, I think it was more the fact they didn't have many really good horses left standing to send here...R&R and retirements left the void, IMO, not the dirt.
This all that make sense:)
OntheRail
12-04-2010, 11:36 AM
'The failure of Breeders' Cup Ltd. and the Japan Racing Association to attract more than one foreign runner to the world's two richest dirt races provides some insight as to what the world at large thinks of dirt racing. '
http://drf.com/blogs/worlds-richest-dirt-races-lack-appeal
Maybe it's all the BS with flying nowadays. :eek: Who wants their junk tossed around and their bag poked. When one can stay home to run... and not be treated like a criminal cause you purchased a airline ticket or chartered a plane. And only God knows what the new TSA screening is for Animals.
And I believe both events were a BIG SUCCESS.
The American dollar is also not what it once was overseas as well. A lot of the financial incentive is gone.
Charlie D
12-04-2010, 12:13 PM
Well, the last thing I'm concerned with is attracting foreign runners...I could care less if they come here for the BC dirt races...and coming here when they ran on SA's rubber gave OUR horses the disadvantage...I'd rather have not as many Euro horses for the BC, than to not have some of our best horses sit it out because of the synthetic surface.
Hell, they pulled Workforce from his race because they didn't like the condition of the TURF course...they don't like dirt, they don't like our turf...ask me if I care?:D let them stay home...IMO, we have enough good horses to fill the BC dirt races...and the Euro's can still come for the turf races...and...they have run their horses on dirt here before and done pretty good...for this year's BC, I think it was more the fact they didn't have many really good horses left standing to send here...R&R and retirements left the void, IMO, not the dirt.
This all that make sense:)
Lot of sense spoken in just those few words imho.
Bruddah
12-04-2010, 12:17 PM
Well, the last thing I'm concerned with is attracting foreign runners...I could care less if they come here for the BC dirt races...and coming here when they ran on SA's rubber gave OUR horses the disadvantage...I'd rather have not as many Euro horses for the BC, than to not have some of our best horses sit it out because of the synthetic surface.
Hell, they pulled Workforce from his race because they didn't like the condition of the TURF course...they don't like dirt, they don't like our turf...ask me if I care?:D let them stay home...IMO, we have enough good horses to fill the BC dirt races...and the Euro's can still come for the turf races...and...they have run their horses on dirt here before and done pretty good...for this year's BC, I think it was more the fact they didn't have many really good horses left standing to send here...R&R and retirements left the void, IMO, not the dirt.
This all that make sense:)
Not only makes sense, it get's a coveted AMEN BRUDDAH!!
Cardus
12-04-2010, 01:47 PM
I didn't have to click the link to know that Alan Shuback wrote the piece.
It figures.
I didn't have to click the link to know that Alan Shuback wrote the piece.
It figures.
I also knew gm10 posted it without looking.
Cardus
12-04-2010, 02:14 PM
Counting just the European runners who were making their first start on dirt in North America, the Euros have a dreadful record in the Breeders' Cup Classic:
1 win
3 places
2 shows
30 finishes of 6th or worse.
Also, we do not have enough good dirt horses to fill the Breeders' Cup dirt races.
Now that world at large is in agreement, maybe they could cough up the money to buy some timers so they could provide fractions for what they pass off as races.
For what it's worth I think Shuback raises a valid point. The question is does America want to be part of horse racing as a global sport, or does it want to be outside of it, an anomaly in a minority sport. It would be interesting to see a P&L analysis on the matter.
For what it's worth I think Shuback raises a valid point. The question is does America want to be part of horse racing as a global sport, or does it want to be outside of it, an anomaly in a minority sport. It would be interesting to see a P&L analysis on the matter.
The sport runs through the US, like it or not.
PaceAdvantage
12-04-2010, 04:29 PM
The question is does America want to be part of horse racing as a global sport, or does it want to be outside of it, an anomaly in a minority sport.An anomaly? Surely you jest.
American racing is completely different from European racing. Always has been, always will be, and always should be. There can be no anomaly when the two have always and will always be completely different games.
European = grass
American = dirt
Separate and distinct.
Why should America have to change the way it's played the game for all these years? Why don't the Europeans build some top class dirt facilities? We have top class turf racing in America. What more would you like? It's time for the Euros to adapt.
Bruddah
12-04-2010, 04:39 PM
For what it's worth I think Shuback raises a valid point. The question is does America want to be part of horse racing as a global sport, or does it want to be outside of it, an anomaly in a minority sport. It would be interesting to see a P&L analysis on the matter.
Cj makes makes an accurate assesment. My personal feelings, America would be better off if they would stop trying to kiss Euro trash ass. It's time for another American Revolution to end the notion that Euro anything is better.
An anomaly? Surely you jest.
American racing is completely different from European racing. Always has been, always will be, and always should be. There can be no anomaly when the two have always and will always be completely different games.
European = grass
American = dirt
Separate and distinct.
Why should America have to change the way it's played the game for all these years? Why don't the Europeans build some top class dirt facilities? We have top class turf racing in America. What more would you like? It's time for the Euros to adapt.
Yes you're right, they are completely different. Thank god you were around to clear this up.
Cj makes makes an accurate assesment. My personal feelings, America would be better off if they would stop trying to kiss Euro trash ass. It's time for another American Revolution to end the notion that Euro anything is better.
Sounds like a lovely idea (not that it applies, but still, lovely).
Who really gives a crap about Euro racing?
I certainly have zero interest in it.
I only look at possible shippers for the BC on turf, or Poly, if that is the case.
But to actually follow it year long - sorry Charlie, it is boring racing.
Give me a 5.5 furlong $4,000 nw3lt any day of the week.
Euro racing is a breeding grounds for horse that we use in our westerns....in the posses. :lol:
Who really gives a crap about Euro racing?
I certainly have zero interest in it.
I only look at possible shippers for the BC on turf, or Poly, if that is the case.
But to actually follow it year long - sorry Charlie, it is boring racing.
Give me a 5.5 furlong $4,000 nw3lt any day of the week.
Euro racing is a breeding grounds for horse that we use in our westerns....in the posses. :lol:
I reckon you can always learn something new by observing how they do things somewhere else. It might be blurry and dull at first, but after a while new insights inevitably follow. My opinion anyway.
It isn't like racing in Europe is in any great shape either.
joanied
12-04-2010, 06:00 PM
Not only makes sense, it get's a coveted AMEN BRUDDAH!!
Thanks Charlie D and how about that...an AMEN BRUDDAH:jump:
To follow up on some of the other posts... I agree with several points...like why is it that WE have to change for the Euro's...like one poster said, let them build a couple of dirt tracks to accomodate us for a change...
and the BC has more to offer than the Classic...let them come over for the turf races if they want...and as far as I'm concerned, they can try their horses on dirt before the Classic anyway...come over and run a couple of times here...sorta like what they did with Curlin when they were thinking of running him in the Arc...they tried him on the grass first...DUH:bang: ...I also think Euro racing is kind of a bore...they don't do any running until the last 1/4 of a mile...up til that point, it's just a bunch of horses galloping around the track...sorry, but those Euro races are just not exciting...plus I hate watching those jocks ride...with an exception or two, like Dettori, if I was a horse, I'd hate having them on my back...they're all over a horse in the stretch, out of balance, moving side to side in the saddle...
and someone said we don't have enough good horse to fill the BC fields...really? Coulda fooled me:eek:
To the Euro's I say..."let 'em eat dirt" :D
It isn't like racing in Europe is in any great shape either.
What is interesting is that you as well as others are thinking this is about Europe. Shuback didn't mention the word Europe once. Europe never cared about dirt and never will, but that's not the point. It's not Shuback's point either. He isn't writing about some petty rivalries, he is looking at the big picture.
What is interesting is that you as well as others are thinking this is about Europe. Shuback didn't mention the word Europe once. Europe never cared about dirt and never will, but that's not the point. It's not Shuback's point either. He isn't writing about some petty rivalries, he is looking at the big picture.
What big picture? There has never been a big picture for horse racing. There is no calendar worldwide. US horses point to races in late fall, the Asian races are too late. Dubai was well received when it was on dirt because of where it falls on the calendar. His point about horses not showing up in Asia without stating why is, well, pointless. I won't even get into the medication part.
I don't really see any gains for the sport by having horses ship all over the world and then not being able to compete as often at home, wherever that happens to be.
thaskalos
12-04-2010, 08:24 PM
I don't understand the point that Shuback is trying to make. He writes:
"That the Breeders' Cup Classic on dirt failed to attract a single foreign runner is cause for concern, simply because a race consisting of all domestic runners can hardly fulfill the concept of the Breeders' Cup as the World Thoroughbred Championships."
Over-glorifying our Championship events is the American way...and it applies to all our team sports as well.
After all, the Super Bowl, the World Series, and the NBA Finals also fail to attract a single European team...but that doesn't stop us from declaring that the winners of these events are "World Champions".
PaceAdvantage
12-04-2010, 08:28 PM
Yes you're right, they are completely different. Thank god you were around to clear this up.If it was so obvious, why do you and others appear to miss this crucial point while continually wringing your hands over the amount of Euros racing in America and vice versa?
sandpit
12-04-2010, 08:32 PM
Well, the last thing I'm concerned with is attracting foreign runners...I could care less if they come here for the BC dirt races...and coming here when they ran on SA's rubber gave OUR horses the disadvantage...I'd rather have not as many Euro horses for the BC, than to not have some of our best horses sit it out because of the synthetic surface.
Hell, they pulled Workforce from his race because they didn't like the condition of the TURF course...they don't like dirt, they don't like our turf...ask me if I care?:D let them stay home...IMO, we have enough good horses to fill the BC dirt races...and the Euro's can still come for the turf races...and...they have run their horses on dirt here before and done pretty good...for this year's BC, I think it was more the fact they didn't have many really good horses left standing to send here...R&R and retirements left the void, IMO, not the dirt.
This all that make sense:)
Interestingly, the BC thinks the exact opposite of you; they want to attract as many foreign runners as possible. Obviously, they think it adds to the prestige and to a less extent in their minds, makes it a better wagering event.
I agree that I don't care if they come for our dirt races, but then we would have never seen Arazi or Johannesburg, which would be regrettable.
Personally, I love it when the Euro turf horses come. Whether we like it or not, they exude class. Two of my fondest memories in the history of the BC are standing on the turf course during training hours and being next to Tikannen and Ouija Board (on separate occasions of course).
Despite how this thread has drifted, the gist of his article was about a worldwide issue, not America vs. Europe. A good horse can come from anywhere, and it's nice to see when they all meet each other, but impractical to get a regional sport to all convene at one spot.
joanied
12-04-2010, 08:49 PM
Interestingly, the BC thinks the exact opposite of you; they want to attract as many foreign runners as possible. Obviously, they think it adds to the prestige and to a less extent in their minds, makes it a better wagering event.
I agree that I don't care if they come for our dirt races, but then we would have never seen Arazi or Johannesburg, which would be regrettable.
Personally, I love it when the Euro turf horses come. Whether we like it or not, they exude class. Two of my fondest memories in the history of the BC are standing on the turf course during training hours and being next to Tikannen and Ouija Board (on separate occasions of course).
Despite how this thread has drifted, the gist of his article was about a worldwide issue, not America vs. Europe. A good horse can come from anywhere, and it's nice to see when they all meet each other, but impractical to get a regional sport to all convene at one spot.
AH...key words...'their minds'...probably not so much in the minds of the fans/handicappers... don't get me wrong, I like it when they come over here to race, I wouldn't miss them if they didn't, so guess for me, if they come, good, if they don't, I don't care...but they will come for the turf races if they want to ship here...IMO, they don't exude class anymore than any of our top horses...99% of top horses exude class...yes, I also enjoyed seeing many of the Euro horses that run here...and there have been many of them I became a fan of...Goldikova the most recent...but I won't cry in my beer if they stay home...
the only great thing Arazi did here was winning the Juvy the way he did...and Johannesburg never did much for me either...but as I said, many have ben great fun over here...
oh, and all this, speaking for myself, does include the world, not just Europe...indeed, a good horse can come from anywhere, and they can come here to race anytime, just don't tell us we need to make changes to appeal to them.
NTamm1215
12-04-2010, 10:10 PM
I don't understand the point that Shuback is trying to make. He writes:
"That the Breeders' Cup Classic on dirt failed to attract a single foreign runner is cause for concern, simply because a race consisting of all domestic runners can hardly fulfill the concept of the Breeders' Cup as the World Thoroughbred Championships."
Over-glorifying our Championship events is the American way...and it applies to all our team sports as well.
After all, the Super Bowl, the World Series, and the NBA Finals also fail to attract a single European team...but that doesn't stop us from declaring that the winners of these events are "World Champions".
I won't waste my time reading Shuback's stuff but if he said this someone needs to ask him if Japan is now a state. Otherwise, was Espoir City a figment of my imagination?
I won't waste my time reading Shuback's stuff but if he said this someone needs to ask him if Japan is now a state. Otherwise, was Espoir City a figment of my imagination?
He did say that was the one "shipper" in either of the two richest dirt races.
horses4courses
12-04-2010, 10:59 PM
Assuming that horse racing never will be a truly global sport, maybe it is time for change in the US.
Think of the hundreds of thousands, no, millions of dollars that go out of this country to foreign-trained horses each year. Aren't the majority of US horsemen and, indeed, horseplayers sick of this situation?
US-trained horses seldom ship outside these shores - why should it be open house for foreigners?
Raise the entry fees for foreign horses in the BC, and all stakes races in the US. After all, it is one-way traffic. Dollars out, nothing comes back.
The money saved could go to aid an industry facing huge difficulties.
NTamm1215
12-04-2010, 11:01 PM
He did say that was the one "shipper" in either of the two richest dirt races.
OK, thanks. I should have read it but really couldn't bring myself to do so.
OK, thanks. I should have read it but really couldn't bring myself to do so.
Wise man.
I'll give you the Cliff Notes:
"Drivel, drivel and more drivel."
What big picture? There has never been a big picture for horse racing. There is no calendar worldwide. US horses point to races in late fall, the Asian races are too late. Dubai was well received when it was on dirt because of where it falls on the calendar. His point about horses not showing up in Asia without stating why is, well, pointless. I won't even get into the medication part.
I don't really see any gains for the sport by having horses ship all over the world and then not being able to compete as often at home, wherever that happens to be.
There is no big picture for horse racing? I could be wrong but I reckon that is right up there with the other foolish things you've said this year. I seriously suggest you educate yourself in global racing, and start paying some attention to breeding as well.
If it was so obvious, why do you and others appear to miss this crucial point while continually wringing your hands over the amount of Euros racing in America and vice versa?
Because it was unrelated drivel and I was being sarcastic. There is no mention of Europe in his article. That is your reflex when you read something like this, but it's got nothing to do with the actual things being said.
The article is about the role of dirt in the global sport. Its stock keeps declining, and you'd think that at least some people would wonder what this will mean for the American horse industry in 10 years time. The Asian markets are booming, and they're choosing anything but dirt. If there is cash being injected into the industry, shouldn't you make yourself an attractive target for that cash so you can get a slice?
Charlie D
12-05-2010, 05:46 AM
Because it was unrelated drivel and I was being sarcastic. There is no mention of Europe in his article. That is your reflex when you read something like this, but it's got nothing to do with the actual things being said.
The article is about the role of dirt in the global sport. Its stock keeps declining, and you'd think that at least some people would wonder what this will mean for the American horse industry in 10 years time. The Asian markets are booming, and they're choosing anything but dirt. If there is cash being injected into the industry, shouldn't you make yourself an attractive target for that cash so you can get a slice?
I presume they are not choosing Hurdles and Fences either, but that fact will not stop NH being as popular as Flat Turf racing in UK and Ireland with everyone who has an interest.
Charlie D
12-05-2010, 05:56 AM
One of the reasons these races have such good prize money is to attract the best horses from around the world. To that extent, the richest turf and synthetic races succeed. The Melbourne Cup included seven foreign-trained horses and was won by the French-trained Americain
How many Arc, QEII, King George, Irish Champion, Champion Stakes, Eclipse Stakes, English/Irish and French Derby and Guineas, winners has the Melbourne Cup and it's undercard attracted???
I presume they are not choosing Hurdles and Fences either, but that fact will not stop NH being as popular as Flat Turf racing in UK and Ireland with everyone who has an interest.
I reckon it's fair to stay that jumps and flat racing are related but actually different. Don't think there are any major growth markets for jumps. There isn't any jumps racing on dirt anyway, so not sure why you're bringing this up Charles.
Charlie D
12-05-2010, 06:44 AM
That is the point. NH racing survives due to popularity with the people interested and not because of Worldwide market interest and same applies to US Dirt racing.
You and Shuback talk and write nice, but have no real clue imho what makes the World go round.
depalma113
12-05-2010, 06:48 AM
'The failure of Breeders' Cup Ltd. and the Japan Racing Association to attract more than one foreign runner to the world's two richest dirt races provides some insight as to what the world at large thinks of dirt racing. '
http://drf.com/blogs/worlds-richest-dirt-races-lack-appeal
Of course no dirt horses ship to run in the richest turf races in the world, so who cares.
That is the point. NH racing survives due to popularity with the people interested and not because of Worldwide market interest and same applies to US Dirt racing.
You and Shuback talk and write nice, but have no real clue imho what makes the World go round.
It has nothing to do with surviving. Nobody claims dirt racing won't survive.
Charlie D
12-05-2010, 07:44 AM
It has nothing to do with surviving. Nobody claims dirt racing won't survive.
Really. Then why all the comment in the article and on this thread.
FenceBored
12-05-2010, 08:00 AM
Really. Then why all the comment in the article and on this thread.
The value of his Martin Collins stock?
Charlie D
12-05-2010, 08:10 AM
The value of his Martin Collins stock?
:)
I have followed the International scene for many years and i can tell Mr Shuback that he is talking shite here
In this day and age, the quality of a championship race is determined in no small part by the number of top class foreign entries it contains
:)
I have followed the International scene for many years and i can tell Mr Shuback that he is talking shite here
Interesting you say that. Tell me Charles, what would the Arc would be worth without the British and Asian raiders? Why were the most covered races at Ascot this year the ones with Goldikova and Starspangledbanner? What would the Dubai World Cup be like if it were filled with local horses only?
Charlie D
12-05-2010, 09:07 AM
Tell me do you think this years Arc, Melbourne Cup were superior in quality to this years Classic and do you think last years Classic was superior in quality to this years renewal.
If answer is yes to all, you like Shuback are talking shite imho.
Tell me do you think this years Arc, Melbourne Cup were superior in quality to this years Classic and do you think last years Classic was superior in quality to this years renewal.
If answer is yes to all, you like Shuback are talking shite imho.
Just answer the question, Charles. You haven't even explained why Shuback is talking shite and you're already thinking of accusing me too.
andymays
12-05-2010, 09:44 AM
I'll tell you one thing about Alan Shuback and that is he shouldn't take comments under his article if he's not going to put them up. I commented a couple of days ago and still there's nothing. I'm assuming he got an overwhelming number of negative comments about the article and he doesn't want to put them up.
Charlie D
12-05-2010, 09:55 AM
Interesting you say that. Tell me Charles, what would the Arc would be worth without the British and Asian raiders? Why were the most covered races at Ascot this year the ones with Goldikova and Starspangledbanner? What would the Dubai World Cup be like if it were filled with local horses only?
It would be a Grade 1 race that the French based connections like A Fabre win more.
The handicaps like the Hunt Cup, The grand National, The Cheltenham Festival are covered more, races that contain very little foriegn interest.
The same as French and btw, 2009/10 renewals were probably the worst in quality run since the start, depite the foriegn interest.
There is no big picture for horse racing? I could be wrong but I reckon that is right up there with the other foolish things you've said this year. I seriously suggest you educate yourself in global racing, and start paying some attention to breeding as well.
Please, educate me then. I know plenty about global racing. I also know the US it too far away for horsemen to make it a priority. They aren't shipping machines, they are horses. The purses aren't big enough to ship somewhere to run without medication. They Dubai card does have big enough purses and was well attended in the past, but rubber will probably end that.
As for breeding, I have no idea what you are talking about. The US is still at the top of the breeding world for horse racing.
Interesting you say that. Tell me Charles, what would the Arc would be worth without the British and Asian raiders? Why were the most covered races at Ascot this year the ones with Goldikova and Starspangledbanner? What would the Dubai World Cup be like if it were filled with local horses only?
Are you actually trying to compare horses shipping from England and even Japan to horses shipping from the US to Japan? Hell, the English horses can jog over it is so close.
PhantomOnTour
12-05-2010, 10:30 AM
Are you actually trying to compare horses shipping from England and even Japan to horses shipping from the US to Japan? Hell, the English horses can jog over it is so close.
Jog?
Hell man, they gallop them thru the chunnel and straight to Longchamps. Running below sea level gives 'em, uhhhhh, bottom.
andymays
12-05-2010, 10:43 AM
Zipse at the Track: In with the New, Out with the Polycrap
http://zipseatthetrack.blogspot.com/2010/12/in-with-new-out-with-polycrap.html
Excerpt:
Santa Anita will open its brand new dirt track for training this Monday. In the political and economic realities of horse racing in California, it marks a sudden and radical turnabout in the direction of the sport. At perhaps the highest profile track in American racing to go synthetic, the surface has been quickly wiped away, as if to say it was never there in the first place. Bringing back dirt serves as a clear admission that the installation of the synthetic surface, only a few years earlier, was a mistake. It was simply a bad idea. Like many bad ideas it was rushed into and shoved down the throats of everyone connected.
GM10, did you get trampled in the mad rush to play poly tracks the last few years?
It has been rejected by most bettors here.
You think bringing in a bunch of unknown horses with no PPS that are worth a dime will change that?
fugedaboutit!
I'll tell you one thing about Alan Shuback and that is he shouldn't take comments under his article if he's not going to put them up. I commented a couple of days ago and still there's nothing. I'm assuming he got an overwhelming number of negative comments about the article and he doesn't want to put them up.
I wrote a complimentary one a few weeks ago and it didn't get published either.
GM10, did you get trampled in the mad rush to play poly tracks the last few years?
It has been rejected by most bettors here.
You think bringing in a bunch of unknown horses with no PPS that are worth a dime will change that?
fugedaboutit!
I loved the poly tracks in the beginning. I found plenty of winners, and the pay-offs where much bigger than on dirt. Those days are over though.
Anyway I just hoped to get a discussion on the consequences of the diminishing role of dirt in global horse racing, but it's not working. People are just focusing on much smaller things.
Are you actually trying to compare horses shipping from England and even Japan to horses shipping from the US to Japan? Hell, the English horses can jog over it is so close.
That is just not the point. It's just not, it's so obviously not.
I loved the poly tracks in the beginning. I found plenty of winners, and the pay-offs where much bigger than on dirt. Those days are over though.
Anyway I just hoped to get a discussion on the consequences of the diminishing role of dirt in global horse racing, but it's not working. People are just focusing on much smaller things.
Diminishing? When was there ever a "role" for dirt racing globally? Outside of the US, you had the Dubai World Cup, and a few races in Japan, period. Very few horses ever went to Japan, and the last one to try I think was Summer Bird and he wound up injured and didn't run. Before that, I can't think of a single top flight horse that went to Japan for a dirt race in the last 20 years.
Dubai had plenty of participation, but changed surfaces (for now) so there isn't a lot to say about that. They were tired of giving away money to US horses most years so they switched to something not kind to dirt horses. This really is the gist of it, isn't it? One country with a lot of money changed surfaces so that is somehow diminishing dirt racing globally. NOTHING ELSE HAS CHANGED.
GregReinhart
12-05-2010, 12:37 PM
Diminishing? When was there ever a "role" for dirt racing globally? Outside of the US, you had the Dubai World Cup, and a few races in Japan, period. Very few horses ever went to Japan, and the last one to try I think was Summer Bird and he wound up injured and didn't run. Before that, I can't think of a single top flight horse that went to Japan for a dirt race in the last 20 years.
Lava Man went before his run at the top in California but he hurt his foot over the deep surface and didn't run well - not that he ever ran well outside of CA, though.
Diminishing? When was there ever a "role" for dirt racing globally? Outside of the US, you had the Dubai World Cup, and a few races in Japan, period. Very few horses ever went to Japan, and the last one to try I think was Summer Bird and he wound up injured and didn't run. Before that, I can't think of a single top flight horse that went to Japan for a dirt race in the last 20 years.
Dubai had plenty of participation, but changed surfaces (for now) so there isn't a lot to say about that. They were tired of giving away money to US horses most years so they switched to something not kind to dirt horses. This really is the gist of it, isn't it? One country with a lot of money changed surfaces so that is somehow diminishing dirt racing globally. NOTHING ELSE HAS CHANGED.
I would argue that a lot has changed. Up till the 80's, you really only had Europe and the US as the big economical area's of the world. They were joined by Japan in the 90's, and are about to be joined by India and China. Relatively speaking, the weight of the US and Europe is getting a lot more smaller (not just economically either, but anyway).
India and Japan are mainly going for turf. Dubai and Singapore are going for synthetic and turf. Hong Kong is synthetic and turf. All those regions are now at a level where they can splash cash at Euro/American levels, spend high amounts on horse racing. If you drew a geographical map of cash flows in horse racing, you'd probably see a lot of fat arrows coming from Asia to America and Europe. How will that map look like in 10 years, I wonder.
Charlie D
12-05-2010, 02:00 PM
Nothing has changed gm10, the trainers, owners, bloodstock agents of this world are still heading to places Keeneland to buy stock from US Dirt horses just as they have done in the past.
The reason, they still produce horses like Ravens Pass, Zenyatta, Whobegotyou, Shocking etc.
Charlie D
12-05-2010, 02:28 PM
According to Steve Millar on ATR Darley/Godolphin have bought everything from Bernardini, a horse that strutted it's stuff on Dirt, not Turf or synthetic.
This is same outfit that you see racing horses at NYRA tracks almost daily. Have runners in KD and runners in BC races regular
Interest in Dirt does not seem to be dimishing in this Worldwide breeding operations eyes. You could say, they are putting thier future in DIRT.
Anyway I just hoped to get a discussion on the consequences of the diminishing role of dirt in global horse racing, but it's not working. People are just focusing on much smaller things.
Maybe no one cares - we have the dirt, come or don't come. We have no need for anything global. What the hell is the great thing about global?
Are you concerned about the the diminishing role of hot dogs in global cuisine?
How will that map look like in 10 years, I wonder.
You will be the only one worrying about it.
WE will still be betting our horses on our tracks and bitching about our jockeys.
Get over yourself. This is not an issue.
I would argue that a lot has changed. Up till the 80's, you really only had Europe and the US as the big economical area's of the world. They were joined by Japan in the 90's, and are about to be joined by India and China. Relatively speaking, the weight of the US and Europe is getting a lot more smaller (not just economically either, but anyway).
India and Japan are mainly going for turf. Dubai and Singapore are going for synthetic and turf. Hong Kong is synthetic and turf. All those regions are now at a level where they can splash cash at Euro/American levels, spend high amounts on horse racing. If you drew a geographical map of cash flows in horse racing, you'd probably see a lot of fat arrows coming from Asia to America and Europe. How will that map look like in 10 years, I wonder.
You honestly think this country cares about what surface they run on in India and Singapore? You need a serious reality check. We didn't care that England and France didn't race on dirt, and I doubt that is going to change anytime soon. Like I said, the Japan thing has been going on for a long time and scant few horses have made the trip. Nothing has changed.
PaceAdvantage
12-05-2010, 10:36 PM
Because it was unrelated drivel and I was being sarcastic. There is no mention of Europe in his article. That is your reflex when you read something like this, but it's got nothing to do with the actual things being said.You were being sarcastic? Gee, thanks for pointing that out...I would have never...
The article is about the role of dirt in the global sport. Its stock keeps declining, and you'd think that at least some people would wonder what this will mean for the American horse industry in 10 years time. The Asian markets are booming, and they're choosing anything but dirt. If there is cash being injected into the industry, shouldn't you make yourself an attractive target for that cash so you can get a slice?There was never much of a role for dirt globally other than the good ol' USA. This has been pointed out to you more than once so far in this thread...glad to see you harped on my use of the word "Euro" though...as if that was important...talk about unrelated drivel.
Cardus
12-05-2010, 11:26 PM
Thanks Charlie D and how about that...an AMEN BRUDDAH:jump:
To follow up on some of the other posts... I agree with several points...like why is it that WE have to change for the Euro's...like one poster said, let them build a couple of dirt tracks to accomodate us for a change...
and the BC has more to offer than the Classic...let them come over for the turf races if they want...and as far as I'm concerned, they can try their horses on dirt before the Classic anyway...come over and run a couple of times here...sorta like what they did with Curlin when they were thinking of running him in the Arc...they tried him on the grass first...DUH:bang: ...I also think Euro racing is kind of a bore...they don't do any running until the last 1/4 of a mile...up til that point, it's just a bunch of horses galloping around the track...sorry, but those Euro races are just not exciting...plus I hate watching those jocks ride...with an exception or two, like Dettori, if I was a horse, I'd hate having them on my back...they're all over a horse in the stretch, out of balance, moving side to side in the saddle...
and someone said we don't have enough good horse to fill the BC fields...really? Coulda fooled me:eek:
To the Euro's I say..."let 'em eat dirt" :D
That was me, though I typed "dirt" horses to fill BC "dirt races." And I'm right.
And yes, you can be fooled. The Euros record in BC dirt races is dismal (e.g.).
CincyHorseplayer
12-06-2010, 05:10 AM
Diminishing? When was there ever a "role" for dirt racing globally? Outside of the US, you had the Dubai World Cup, and a few races in Japan, period. Very few horses ever went to Japan, and the last one to try I think was Summer Bird and he wound up injured and didn't run. Before that, I can't think of a single top flight horse that went to Japan for a dirt race in the last 20 years.
Dubai had plenty of participation, but changed surfaces (for now) so there isn't a lot to say about that. They were tired of giving away money to US horses most years so they switched to something not kind to dirt horses. This really is the gist of it, isn't it? One country with a lot of money changed surfaces so that is somehow diminishing dirt racing globally. NOTHING ELSE HAS CHANGED.
Oooh!You just smoked this guy.I know you aren't into excessive celebration.But here's one of those times.
CincyHorseplayer
12-06-2010, 05:26 AM
Charlie,I like being able to rap with you about horses,but you are diggin a hole man.Even if it's for fun!
We just have 2 different games.That's pretty much it.Nothing to argue about!I get up on Sunday morning to watch the Arc,I love and root for horses like Zarkava and Goldikova.I was dying to see Sea The Stars.But these horses are in 2 different worlds.Recognize that this is the great divide,not journalism and it's cutting edge lack of acknowledgment!
You honestly think this country cares about what surface they run on in India and Singapore? You need a serious reality check. We didn't care that England and France didn't race on dirt, and I doubt that is going to change anytime soon. Like I said, the Japan thing has been going on for a long time and scant few horses have made the trip. Nothing has changed.
That's disappointing, I expected more depth from you and this thread in general.
Maybe no one cares - we have the dirt, come or don't come. We have no need for anything global. What the hell is the great thing about global?
Are you concerned about the the diminishing role of hot dogs in global cuisine?
You will be the only one worrying about it.
WE will still be betting our horses on our tracks and bitching about our jockeys.
Get over yourself. This is not an issue.
Tom, answer these questions please.
Will the American breeding industry be able to maintain its current size when foreign buyers spend less?
If dirt becomes even more of a minority surface than it already is (on a global scale), will foreign buyers not want to spend more on turf pedigrees and less on dirt?
The BC as a season finale is going to face serious competition over the next decade, from Europe and Asia. Suppose its international reputation diminished during that time, what American races remain that stir international interest? I mean, which races remain that the big foreign spenders still want to win on American soil?
1. Don't care
2. Don't care
3. Don't care. I only bet it. Nothing else matters.
Get my drift?
CincyHorseplayer
12-06-2010, 07:47 AM
Tom, answer these questions please.
Will the American breeding industry be able to maintain its current size when foreign buyers spend less?
If dirt becomes even more of a minority surface than it already is (on a global scale), will foreign buyers not want to spend more on turf pedigrees and less on dirt?
The BC as a season finale is going to face serious competition over the next decade, from Europe and Asia. Suppose its international reputation diminished during that time, what American races remain that stir international interest? I mean, which races remain that the big foreign spenders still want to win on American soil?
Dirt will never fall out of favor.It's the American Way.
Where is this conjured pressure coming from??It's a phantom that doesn't exist.We pay out big purses and we are the mark.Other than the Arc and a few others pay is weak compared to American purses.It's the old put up or shut up gig.And you don't put up.so end of story.Period.
Dirt will never fall out of favor.It's the American Way.
Where is this conjured pressure coming from??It's a phantom that doesn't exist.We pay out big purses and we are the mark.Other than the Arc and a few others pay is weak compared to American purses.It's the old put up or shut up gig.And you don't put up.so end of story.Period.
Your purses are fast becoming peanuts. And I never said dirt would fall out of favour.
1. Don't care
2. Don't care
3. Don't care. I only bet it. Nothing else matters.
Get my drift?
Yes I do. It reminds me of an ostrich.
Here end my futile attempts to illustrate that American horse racing is part of a global market place (a changing market place).
CincyHorseplayer
12-06-2010, 08:42 AM
Your purses are fast becoming peanuts. And I never said dirt would fall out of favour.
Well isn't this cute.Dirt will never fall out of favor in this country.And as soon as purses are worthwhile to ship over seas we'll talk!!
Til then you are full of shiznitz.
Well isn't this cute.Dirt will never fall out of favor in this country.And as soon as purses are worthwhile to ship over seas we'll talk!!
Til then you are full of shiznitz.
The purses are already there today. And wth is a shitnitz.
Bobzilla
12-06-2010, 09:28 AM
I'm not sure why Shuback is so concerned about horses moving back to the Hollywood cushion surface after having raced on SA dirt given that this will probably be happening for only a few more years at most. Isn't Hol supposed to be transformed into condos and malls once the economy improves? Furthermore, it's been widely accepted that Cushion Track is closer to dirt than any of the other synthetic brands so I'm not certain it will make that much of a difference in the minds of the horsemen over the course of those few years.
North American Racing has always been a different sport than the one played on other continents. Many of us love American racing as it's been conducted over the last century and a half while maintaining an interest and appreciation for the way the game is played in other parts of the world. I think many of us were comfortable with this and had a Viva la Difference approach to the greater racing world. We were happy to welcome foreign competitors to try and beat us at our own game, a feat periodically accomplished (e.g. Arazi, Arcangues, Shekh Albadou, etc,.etc). Evidently, outside of America, the sport of horse racing is seen as one game and one game only and it's to be conducted in a manner and over a surface consistent with their own history, otherwise it's not really racing but rather a perversion of racing. There may not have been any European participation in this year's Classic but prior to the Pro-Ride Classics of 2008 and 2009 we had seen a fair share of Europeans running in this event with the hopes of adding a black type dirt win to their resume (e.g. Swain, Sahkee, Arcangues). Yes, I understand much of the world's economic power is heading east and the next generation of wealthy will be calling places such as Singapore and China their home. Be that as it may there will continue to be a place in the racing world for dirt racing; there has to be otherwise the business of racing in America may not survive, and I truly doubt that the purses in our biggest races will be so paltry, adjusting for currency, that the challenge of winning a major G1 event at Churchill Downs or Belmont wouldn't be a worthwhile addition to the resume of a Chinese champion whose reputation had been earned entirely over synthetic surfaces and grass.
FenceBored
12-06-2010, 09:37 AM
I'm not sure why Shuback is so concerned about horses moving back to the Hollywood cushion surface after having raced on SA dirt ...
Because, he's too silly to realize that horses are doing the dirt-synth-dirt/synth-dirt-synth thing in the Midwest all the time.
Your purses are fast becoming peanuts.
Not true.
Robert Fischer
12-06-2010, 03:57 PM
It's not the surfaces that the other countries are kicking our ass in, it's the business model.
American racing is so watered down, unorganized, poorly broadcast, and flooded with drugs.
At times it's the best in the world, in spite of all these problems.
Grass or synthetic doesn't change the fact that our racing has an inefficient problematic business model.
CincyHorseplayer
12-06-2010, 06:53 PM
The purses are already there today. And wth is a shitnitz.
What on turf??!!You guys buy all of our grass horses for your precious turf.
Long story short.We do dirt here.Elaborate at your own peril!
Cardus
12-06-2010, 07:06 PM
I am surprised by the "Euros be damned" posts, particularly from the "Kumbayah/Peace Love and Understanding" posters.
I agree that we needn't abandon dirt racing, but encouraging connections of foreign-based horses to race here is a very good thing, and should be continued and strengthened.
Cratos
12-06-2010, 07:39 PM
'The failure of Breeders' Cup Ltd. and the Japan Racing Association to attract more than one foreign runner to the world's two richest dirt races provides some insight as to what the world at large thinks of dirt racing. '
http://drf.com/blogs/worlds-richest-dirt-races-lack-appeal
GM10, I believe you and Alan Shuback meant well, but “dirt” racing is the mainstay of American horseracing and probably always will be because I believe our (American) horseracing culture and fan wants it; and the legacy of horseracing in America was formed from dirt racing.
I understand that turf racing for thoroughbreds is dominant in Europe and other parts of the world, but in all due respect Americans are not conformists and if European owners, Asian owners, or any other foreign owners do not want to send their horses to race in America the horseracing sport will still survive.
The problem with horseracing in America has virtually nothing to do with not having foreign entries; its problems is about how the sport is organized (state-by-state) and the failure of the authorizing states to respond to the needs of its fans; having foreign entries is not the solution to that problem.
CincyHorseplayer
12-06-2010, 08:04 PM
I am surprised by the "Euros be damned" posts, particularly from the "Kumbayah/Peace Love and Understanding" posters.
I agree that we needn't abandon dirt racing, but encouraging connections of foreign-based horses to race here is a very good thing, and should be continued and strengthened.
You're incensed by the reaction to the reaction?
Oh and name these Kumbayah posters since you called them out collectively.I'm sure they are dying to hear it.
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