How to Stimulate and Grow an Economy

[boxcar]

What a remarkable revelation. Unemployment Benies stimulate the growth, not tax cuts. Going with this logic, can someone explain to me why anyone should continue to work? Any of you libs want to take a shot at this? It seems to me that the more unemployed there are,the more benies get paid out, and the more benies paid the more the economy would be stimulated, right -- the more "every dollar" of those benies would be spent, right? Why should anyone work?

End of unemployment benefits would hurt economy

WASHINGTON — If Congress lets unemployment benefits expire this week for the long-term unemployed, they won't be the only ones to feel the pain. The overall economy would suffer, too.

Unemployment benefits help drive the economy because the unemployed tend to spend every dollar they get, pumping cash into businesses. A cut-off of aid for the millions of people unemployed more than six months could squeeze a fragile economy, economists say. Among the consequences they envision over the next year:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-12-01-unemployment-expire-effects_N.htm

Liberals have lost their mind!

Boxcar

[hcap]

Employment is better, but unemployment benefits are the second choice over tax cuts

...The Congressional Budget Office says every $1 spent on unemployment benefits generates up to $1.90 in economic growth. The program is the most effective government policy for generating growth among 11 options the CBO has analyzed.

..."If you've been unemployed for six months, you've gone through your savings," says Heidi Shierholz, economist at the Economic Policy Institute. "You have no choice but to spend (benefits) immediately."

By contrast, money given to higher-income families — say, through tax cuts — tends to deliver less economic benefit because those taxpayers typically save a big chunk of their windfall.Then there is the minor detail of upcoming holidays. But I guess according to you it is good for the poor (no job folks are getting poor) to suffer for their own good? Nothing like gong hungry to build character.

End of unemployment benefits would hurt economySometimes you get it.

[Spiderman]

The report of recommendations to bail-out the economy is linked below. It takes about the same amount of time to read as handicapping a 10-race card.

For starters, the report recommends freezing salaries of Congress. I would go further to recommend ways of deducting pay: poor attendance, not voting, et al.

http://documents.nytimes.com/in-formal-report-debt-panel-splits-on-taxes-and-spending

[rastajenk]

I've been on unemployment a few times, and I was not stimulating the economy. Rent and utilities come first; I guess you could say supporting a huge business like Kroger could be stimulating, but I got a feeling that's not what the CBO has in mind.

[boxcar]

Employment is better, but unemployment benefits are the second choice over tax cuts

Then there is the minor detail of upcoming holidays. But I guess according to you it is good for the poor (no job folks are getting poor) to suffer for their own good? Nothing like gong hungry to build character.

Sometimes you get it.

But how can employment possibly be better? Sounds like employment checks don't stimulate the economy nearly as well as the unemployment bennies.

But if you insist that employment checks are a better stimulus, then tell me how an employment check for $300. can stimulate an economy better than one for $330., for example. In other words, in your Alternate Reality, how would Less = More? How would that work?

As far as going hungry for the holidays or any other days, there's always food stamps, right? I mean the Gov is pushing these big time over radio ads. Those, too, have be a great way to stimulate the economy.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

The report of recommendations to bail-out the economy is linked below. It takes about the same amount of time to read as handicapping a 10-race card.

For starters, the report recommends freezing salaries of Congress. I would go further to recommend ways of deducting pay: poor attendance, not voting, et al.

http://documents.nytimes.com/in-formal-report-debt-panel-splits-on-taxes-and-spending

We should make that no voting condition retroactive. BO would owe Americans a small fortune when he was in the Senate.

Boxcar

[newtothegame]

HCAP....sir/ma'am graphsalot!! How the hell are ya?? Hopefully well....

I have but one question...seriously regarding this topic...
If unemployment funds are the way to stimulate the economy, why don't we all just quit work, and get unemployment checks? I mean lets as a nation, quit working and just draw unemployment from the government!
Oh wait...how would the government pay for those funds??
Wait, wait....I must of missed something....
(yes I know I set myself up there) lol....
If the government is only taking money from me (which I am now unable to spend due to its loss), and giving it to someone else (hopefully for them to spend)...how does this stimulate or GROW the damn economy???

[bigmack]

99 weeks is not enough. How 'bout permanent unemployment benefits?

[newtothegame]

99 weeks is not enough. How 'bout permanent unemployment benefits?

The amazing part to me is they do NOT want to extend the BUSH tax cuts...but they want to extend the unemployment benefits.
is this not a double standard??
"We can NOT afford to lose that tax revenue....."
"We can NOT afford to NOT give this money away......."

:bang: :bang:

[hcap]

But how can employment possibly be better? Sounds like employment checks don't stimulate the economy nearly as well as the unemployment bennies.

But if you insist that employment checks are a better stimulus, then tell me how an employment check for $300. can stimulate an economy better than one for $330., for example. In other words, in your Alternate Reality, how would Less = More? How would that work?

As far as going hungry for the holidays or any other days, there's always food stamps, right? I mean the Gov is pushing these big time over radio ads. Those, too, have be a great way to stimulate the economy.
Boxcar My quotes are from the article YOU posted. I guess you don't read what you post. In fact it made a very good case FOR bennies. But did not say having a job is worse. That's your silly conclusion. Speaking of silly conclusions. Food stamps for the holidays? Have you tried out for a role as the Grinch?

And if you really want to build character of the poor this season why not have a limit on HOW many food stamps per family? You could also include a lump of coal for holiday cheer.

[boxcar]

My quotes are from the article YOU posted. I guess you don't read what you post. In fact it made a very good case FOR bennies. But did not say having a job is worse. That's your silly conclusion. Speaking of silly conclusions. Food stamps for the holidays? Have you tried out for a role as the Grinch?

Nor did it say having a job is better. :rolleyes:

Hey...it's your beloved government that is pushing the program over the airwaves. Must be a really great one. Plus...if Unemployment Bennies stimulate the economy so well, why wouldn't food stamps, too?

And if you really want to build character of the poor this season why not have a limit on HOW many food stamps per family? You could also include a lump of coal for holiday cheer.

That's our "benevolent" government's department. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting to find out from you how an employment check of $300. would be a better stimulant for the economy than one for $330.? After all, you have said that it's better to have an employment check than an unemployment one, right? And you have also said that Unemployment Bennies are a better way to stimulate the economy than extending the Bush tax cuts. I would like to know, therefore, how does Less = More? How would Less stimulate the economy better than More?

Boxcar

[acorn54]

from what i gather there are six people for every job out there at present. so even if all the jobs available were filled that would leave 85 percent of the presently unemployed needing financial assistance.

[newtothegame]

Acorn....can you provide a link?
And, let me ask you this from possibly a different perspective....
In your scenario, 15% more would be employed....How much less would that take from the strain of government assisted people?
How much MORE would the put into peoples pockets as spendable cash?
Wouldnt that spendable cash in turn grow the economy more, thereby creating even more jobs?
Seems to me its a nice cycle to head in that direction versus the one we are in.

[hcap]

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting to find out from you how an employment check of $300. would be a better stimulant for the economy than one for $330.? After all, you have said that it's better to have an employment check than an unemployment one, right? Makes no sense. I said having a job is OBVIOUSLY better than collecting unemployment checks. Can't you understand why? Don't prop up a specious straw dog argument for me to knock down.
UNEMPLOYMENT CHECKS AVERAGE 1/2 OF A WORKERS paycheck. Do the math.

[mostpost]

HCAP....sir/ma'am graphsalot!! How the hell are ya?? Hopefully well....

I have but one question...seriously regarding this topic...
If unemployment funds are the way to stimulate the economy, why don't we all just quit work, and get unemployment checks? I mean lets as a nation, quit working and just draw unemployment from the government!
Oh wait...how would the government pay for those funds??
Wait, wait....I must of missed something....
(yes I know I set myself up there) lol....
If the government is only taking money from me (which I am now unable to spend due to its loss), and giving it to someone else (hopefully for them to spend)...how does this stimulate or GROW the damn economy???
Do you really not understand this? Unemployment benefits are a life raft. A job is the Coast Guard ship that comes to take you off the life raft. We would all rather be on a ship, but until that ship comes along I think we need the life raft.
Another thing you forget is that these people also contributed to the benefits they are receiving. They worked all their lives. They contributed to unemployment programs. They paid taxes. All of you guys seem to think that everyone on unemployment just magically appeared and began collecting benefits.
Various studies referenced in the article say that one dollar of benefits produces from $1.61 to $2.00 in the economy.
As for what you are paying: The article states that the monthly cost is about $5B. If there are 100M taxpayers contributing to the fund (I'm sure there are more), then your cost is $50. Of course it is a lot less because we have a graduated tax system.

If you were one of those who had been unemployed for nearly two years,
you would be singing a very different tune. All your ideology would be very much in the background.

[hcap]

Hey box, how about that lump of coal in their Christmas stocking? At least that would stimulate Big Coal.

[Spiderman]

The amazing part to me is they do NOT want to extend the BUSH tax cuts...but they want to extend the unemployment benefits.
is this not a double standard??
"We can NOT afford to lose that tax revenue....."
"We can NOT afford to NOT give this money away......."

:bang: :bang:
The so-called, Bush Tax Cuts, are intended to be retained, except for millionaire$. Also, eployment benefits are taxed as income.

[newtothegame]

Do you really not understand this? Unemployment benefits are a life raft. A job is the Coast Guard ship that comes to take you off the life raft. We would all rather be on a ship, but until that ship comes along I think we need the life raft.
Another thing you forget is that these people also contributed to the benefits they are receiving. They worked all their lives. They contributed to unemployment programs. They paid taxes. All of you guys seem to think that everyone on unemployment just magically appeared and began collecting benefits.
Various studies referenced in the article say that one dollar of benefits produces from $1.61 to $2.00 in the economy.
As for what you are paying: The article states that the monthly cost is about $5B. If there are 100M taxpayers contributing to the fund (I'm sure there are more), then your cost is $50. Of course it is a lot less because we have a graduated tax system.

If you were one of those who had been unemployed for nearly two years,
you would be singing a very different tune. All your ideology would be very much in the background.

Slowdown there ohh stamp god of the Universe....
I never said in this thread that we shouldnt or should extend the unemployment benefits.
I feel for those unemployed who WANT to work.
My problem is the hypocrisy of those in washington who scream about losing money on one end yet giving it away on another. Course I wouldnt expect you to understand that either.

[newtothegame]

The so-called, Bush Tax Cuts, are intended to be retained, except for millionaire$. Also, eployment benefits are taxed as income.

I am fully aware that unemployment bennies are taxed as income....
But what sense does that make?? Just a way for the government to say we gave ya a dollar (even if reality is you get say 75 cents of it). Yeah, thats truly helping those needy people isnt it???
:bang:

[ArlJim78]

Its just wrong. It hurts the economy either way. when the government makes such protracted distortions of the everyday habits of peoples lives it pushes us down the wrong path. you can't simply keep paying people thinking that if you do it long enough that some day these great new jobs will appear and everything will be fine. wrong. people need to be engaged and looking for work, and motivated to work, they don't need to be lounging around collecting benefits getting out of shape and out of the habit of working. If they can't find work then they need to make some hard decisions about consolidating expenses, moving in with relatives, accepting a lover paying job, whatever. the point is none of those healthy activities occur while the government spiggot is left wide open. why is it that people look at governement as a nanny?

plus it is not fair. many people over the years have lost their jobs and had trouble finding new work, but had to live within the regular time frame for unemployment. those people were hurting just as bad as some of the people are now, why weren't their benefits automatically extended? I say some of the people because what you will find is that many many people are already doing quite fine on unemployment and have no intention of looking for work while this gravy train rolls on. I have heard first hand from people who are riding this out for as long as they can knowing full well that when its over they will have to start looking.

look this isn't rocket science. the more checks you hand out the more people get in line for those checks and the more dependent they become on those checks. does everyone realize that we can't all live on government checks?

[mostpost]

My quotes are from the article YOU posted. I guess you don't read what you post. In fact it made a very good case FOR bennies. But did not say having a job is worse. That's your silly conclusion. Speaking of silly conclusions. Food stamps for the holidays? Have you tried out for a role as the Grinch? And if you really want to build character of the poor this season why not have a limit on HOW many food stamps per family? You could also include a lump of coal for holiday cheer.
Is that really necesary? Can't you make your point without insulting The Grinch?

[boxcar]

does everyone realize that we can't all live on government checks?

Everyone except for the Associated [de]Press[ed], Mosty and Hcap. Those government checks are fantastic for the economy. If fact, they're such great stimulants to the economy, tax cuts can't hold a candle to 'em, according to Hcap. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[fast4522]

21 posts prior to this one and all are living in the past. Several countries on the verge of collapse specifically because they have been doing exactly what Obama Administration whats to follow. You people are insane if you think pretty charts and graphs or anything the CBO publishes have any truth, like a bunch of dumb livestock pleased by corn feed with liberal chemical enhancing crapola. WTFU your being spoon fed another story, and you think Bernie Madoff was a crook which is nothing compared to what Barry, Harry, and Nancy planned to do with you with the rest of your lives called change.

[cj's dad]

Simple question: what happens to the family provider that cannot find a job and in several days will be without food and housing for his family ??

Is this the point in time where average Americans start busting one another over the head for the food they need to feed their children ??

Who is to blame for this unemployment rate of 10%+ ??

Does it really matter ?!?

There are fellow working Americans who will soon be going hungry; not the welfare queens and their children, but people who through their employers paid into the UB system. The unemployed did not create this situation. They are the victims of terrible mismanagement by the current admin and the one before.

I think that there are one or two issues which will bring the average American to his knees; they are housing and food.

God help us when the hungry masses are on the street. !!!

[Robert Fischer]

Simple question: what happens to the family provider that cannot find a job and in several days will be without food and housing for his family ??

Is this the point in time where average Americans start busting one another over the head for the food they need to feed their children ??

i think it's 4 days without food when the avg. knucklehead starts to use violent means.

[newtothegame]

Simple question: what happens to the family provider that cannot find a job and in several days will be without food and housing for his family ??

Is this the point in time where average Americans start busting one another over the head for the food they need to feed their children ??

Who is to blame for this unemployment rate of 10%+ ??

Does it really matter ?!?

There are fellow working Americans who will soon be going hungry; not the welfare queens and their children, but people who through their employers paid into the UB system. The unemployed did not create this situation. They are the victims of terrible mismanagement by the current admin and the one before.

I think that there are one or two issues which will bring the average American to his knees; they are housing and food.

God help us when the hungry masses are on the street. !!!

Dad, your 100% correct. This is NOT the time.....
But, let me ask you this...(if I am not mistaken, your an ex officer)...
Have you not seen people who abuse the system? So, who is to determine who gets and who doesnt? Or should we just extend for all?

Next, just as strongly as you and I am sure most feel on this issue ( I doubt seriously anyone on this board wants to see a fellow american starve), what's the next issue?
There will always be people who feel strongly about certain issues. Are we to just let congress have carte blanche and use the " you can't let a fellow human starve " excuse? Cause if that's the case, you know as well as I do the liberals and progessive are pushing hard for those poor illegals to become citizens here real shortly with things like the dream act.
What about all the poor citizens of Haiti (who are now claiming that chollera was brought there by those providing them relief) ??
The point I am trying to make is there will have to be some very TOUGH choices we as a COUNTRY need to make.
We have to start somewhere. But, I do agree that THIS society, unlike a generation ago, would have a hard time if those checks got cut off.
We must stop putting band aids on gapping wounds without ever solving the root of the problem.

[cj's dad]

Dad, your 100% correct. This is NOT the time.....
But, let me ask you this...(if I am not mistaken, your an ex officer)...
Have you not seen people who abuse the system? So, who is to determine who gets and who doesnt? Or should we just extend for all?

Next, just as strongly as you and I am sure most feel on this issue ( I doubt seriously anyone on this board wants to see a fellow american starve), what's the next issue?
There will always be people who feel strongly about certain issues. Are we to just let congress have carte blanche and use the " you can't let a fellow human starve " excuse? Cause if that's the case, you know as well as I do the liberals and progessive are pushing hard for those poor illegals to become citizens here real shortly with things like the dream act.
What about all the poor citizens of Haiti (who are now claiming that chollera was brought there by those providing them relief) ??
The point I am trying to make is there will have to be some very TOUGH choices we as a COUNTRY need to make.
We have to start somewhere. But, I do agree that THIS society, unlike a generation ago, would have a hard time if those checks got cut off.
We must stop putting band aids on gapping wounds without ever solving the root of the problem.

Not an ex-officer just a dumb ass electrical inspector !!

The difference between theose on UB is that they paid into the system as opposed to those who have never ever given one cent to the system yet collect monthly food stamps, sec.8 housing, bus passes, medical cards, etc...

Where is the talk of cutting them off ???? Where ??

Yet those who actually PAID IN whether through their employer or by themselves as all small businesses do are about to be cut off.

It's time to drop the anchor on those who have NEVER given $1 to the US in the form of taxes.

[Tom]

Who is to blame for this unemployment rate of 10%+ ??

Does it really matter ?!?

Exactly. What matters is who is playing politics instead of fixing the problem?

It sure ain't the POS in the White House.

FUBO!

It's time to drop the anchor on those who have NEVER given $1 to the US in the form of taxes

Drop the anchor on the anchors!
Maybe I will run in 2012 - that will be my slogan!
Isn't it romantic? ;):D

[fast4522]

Respectfully, you people still do not get it. I am not saying deny people food or even unemployment benefits. Being serious as a heart attack I will ask what does a Doctor do when you go to the hospital for massive wounds to prevent you from expiring, duh stop the bleeding right? This is job #1, we as a people have to call the executive branch of our government to task and to his knees by both sides of this United States Congress. Oh its sacrilegious to defy a sitting President by members of the Congress, bullshit. We the people are the Government and these leaders had better stop the bleeding and fast.

[Mike at A+]

Well, I predicted this months ago on another thread (I think it was called "Going Short"). I said that the Bush tax cuts would be extended and the market would react favorably to that liklihood. I also said that Obama would go down kicking and screaming as we are seeing daily on the news. Harry Reid didn't look like a happy camper today when Mitch McConnell gave him the news that the tax issue would need to be resolved before anything else happens.

Imagine if Obama had gone along with this months ago? Unemployment would probably have gone below 8% and the market rally would have started much sooner. Obama was afraid of upsetting the far left by keeping the tax rates as they are now. And I still firmly believe that the MAIN REASON why he kicked and screamed for so long is the fact that George W. Bush's name is associated with those tax cuts. The narcissist in Obama took over and ignored the urgency of the reality. So basically the punk in the White House made millions of Americans suffer for much longer than necessary had he acted in their interests. I still can't get over how stupid people were to vote for this jerk even in light of the fact that McCain wasn't much better. The next two years should be very interesting. Does Obama continue to cater to the far left koolaid drinkers at the risk of destroying his party? Or does he wake up to the reality that America is and always was a right of center country?

[newtothegame]

Respectfully, you people still do not get it. I am not saying deny people food or even unemployment benefits. Being serious as a heart attack I will ask what does a Doctor do when you go to the hospital for massive wounds to prevent you from expiring, duh stop the bleeding right? This is job #1, we as a people have to call the executive branch of our government to task and to his knees by both sides of this United States Congress. Oh its sacrilegious to defy a sitting President by members of the Congress, bullshit. We the people are the Government and these leaders had better stop the bleeding and fast.

Fast...you continue to use terms like "you people"....and the "21 previous post" ..when yours was number 23.....

If you would like dialogue, be specific. ....
If you notice, I specifiaclly said we need to stop the bleeding but need to stop putting band aids on gapping wounds.
There are some serious cuts that need to happen...
If somehow you are thinking something different...please elaborate...
After all, its conversations like these (probably started on some forum) that may ultimately make it too congress one day! :lol:

[ArlJim78]

the same people pushing for unlimited extensions of unemployement because it stimulates the economy seem to have no problem shutting down the US oil drilling industry. I guess with the super stimulus provided by the unemployment checks we are free to do away with actual jobs. who needs them anyway.

[newtothegame]

You saw that too huh ARL? Supposedly they are talking like 7 years of no more drilling in that area......unreal!

[fast4522]

Fast...you continue to use terms like "you people"....and the "21 previous post" ..when yours was number 23.....

If you would like dialogue, be specific. ....
If you notice, I specifiaclly said we need to stop the bleeding but need to stop putting band aids on gapping wounds.
There are some serious cuts that need to happen...
If somehow you are thinking something different...please elaborate...
After all, its conversations like these (probably started on some forum) that may ultimately make it too congress one day! :lol:


Fast...you continue to use terms like "you people"....and the "21 previous post" ..when yours was number 23.....

If you would like dialogue, be specific. ....
If you notice, I specifiaclly said we need to stop the bleeding but need to stop putting band aids on gapping wounds.
There are some serious cuts that need to happen...
If somehow you are thinking something different...please elaborate...
After all, its conversations like these (probably started on some forum) that may ultimately make it too congress one day! :lol:


Sir, just how can you expect to even talk of cuts while vermin continue this bullshit, specifically?

[newtothegame]

Sir, just how can you expect to even talk of cuts while vermin continue this bullshit, specifically?

Well, it seems to have started with Mc Connel saying NOTHING will get through until the two pressing issues are addressed.
Listen, I do NOT for a moment think that our congressional membership is gonna change overnight. But they have to start somewhere.....
Lets get the tax cuts through first along with a MINOR extension of the Unemployment benefits.
DREAM act, drilling bans etc etc all need to go to the back burner.....
We must get through this lame duck before we can start to see the fruits of lack thereof this last election cycle.....

[newtothegame]

I'm with ya on the frustration level fast...I'm with ya as most of us are...lets get through the lame duck...hold the line hopefully (meaning no dream act etc ect)...and see where to go next!

[Tom]

I'm with ya on the frustration level fast...I'm with ya as most of us are...lets get through the lame duck...hold the line hopefully (meaning no dream act etc ect)...and see where to go next!

To Pennsylvania Avenue, with torches and pitchforks!

[fast4522]

Tom, incorrect tone because what is more important is that every single item in the liberal agenda be turned into dust after the lame duck and the SOB gets the message. We have come this far and to placate these fidiots is just more cruel abuse to those who actually care.

[boxcar]

the same people pushing for unlimited extensions of unemployement because it stimulates the economy seem to have no problem shutting down the US oil drilling industry. I guess with the super stimulus provided by the unemployment checks we are free to do away with actual jobs. who needs them anyway.

Good point! Since BO flip-flopped on the oil drilling thing, he must think UBs are a superior way to stimulate the economy than are actual jobs. Not sure, thought, that argument would gain any legs in the Gulf states.

Boxcar

[nijinski]

The Unemployment numbers are probably substantially higher than reported.
Those who are no longer collecting UI are likely not counted ,and likely
won't be because it makes the government look worse.

You have to understand , there probably are those people who are not actively
seeking work , just as there are in the Welfare system. But there are too many who are up there in age , but have not reached SS qualifications who
have been cut off from work and no one is hiring them.
My widowed neighbor is 61 , needs to work and cannot even get a call from a Focus Marketing Group . She doesn't meet the demograhics she's been told.

The job market is grim right now,but let's not let the people who worked hard all their lives and paid their share fall through the cracks.
I hope in the New Year we can see some job opportunities for everyone in need.

[WeirdWilly]

from what i gather there are six people for every job out there at present. so even if all the jobs available were filled that would leave 85 percent of the presently unemployed needing financial assistance.

What people need to do is quit WAITING for SOMEONE ELSE to give them a W-2 job, and CREATE their own jobs. Start businesses. If you have to, go door-to-door, cutting grass, raking leaves, shoveling snow, showing initiative. It's not easy, and it's not instant, but when you do a GOOD job at whatever you do - even scrubbing toilets and dumping trash - people will notice!

Alas, we have created this culture where all problems have to be fixed top down with a check and an iron fist of authority and regulation. And where honest, productive work is derided because people want to do their own thing and get paid - whether or not it is useful or desired.

[hcap]

My quotes are from the article YOU posted. I guess you don't read what you post. In fact it made a very good case FOR bennies. But did not say having a job is worse. That's your silly conclusion. Speaking of silly conclusions. Food stamps for the holidays? Have you tried out for a role as the Grinch? And if you really want to build character of the poor this season why not have a limit on HOW many food stamps per family? You could also include a lump of coal for holiday cheer.
Is that really necesary? Can't you make your point without insulting The Grinch? Ok, Ok, sorry, did not want to insult anyone. How's about this instead ?

http://www.bartcop.com/gop-santa-watch-out.jpg

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[hcap]

This is why liberals have no patience with the "Welfare Queen", "illegals are stealing everything" and "let's slap the poor around for their for their own good and we will save a bundle" bullshit CONS believe. It also would have pointed out that the huge long-term projected deficits are entirely attributable to the broken health care system. If the United States paid the same amount per person for health care as countries with longer life expectancies we would be facing huge budget surpluses, not deficits. However, because it editorial position dominates its news section, almost no readers of the Post would know this simple and important fact....Dean Baker

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g44/nyceve/Lipitor-thumb-454x314.jpgI know you guys are annoyed with this stuff. But in lieu of the 20 billion THAT EXTENDING UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS WILL COST, SAVING A TRILLION PUTS IT INTO PROPER PERSPECTIVE

[boxcar]

Ok, Ok, sorry, did not want to insult anyone. How's about this instead ?

http://www.bartcop.com/gop-santa-watch-out.jpg

:cool: :cool: :cool:

There you go projecting again. This is what liberal pols do. They piss on Americans' back and then try to con us that's it really raining. :rolleyes:

Boxcar

[hcap]

Versus food stamps for Christmas and a lump of coal under the tree? I think the cartoon expresses current republican sentiments exactly.

And you yourself have presented the "yellow rain trickle down" concept perfectly. :p

BTW, notice how Big Pharma screw us. If we could deal with drug companies as other nations do, en masse, we could pay for extended unemployment benefits well into the middle of this century and help everyone who needs it including the poor

[acorn54]

What people need to do is quit WAITING for SOMEONE ELSE to give them a W-2 job, and CREATE their own jobs. Start businesses. If you have to, go door-to-door, cutting grass, raking leaves, shoveling snow, showing initiative. It's not easy, and it's not instant, but when you do a GOOD job at whatever you do - even scrubbing toilets and dumping trash - people will notice!

Alas, we have created this culture where all problems have to be fixed top down with a check and an iron fist of authority and regulation. And where honest, productive work is derided because people want to do their own thing and get paid - whether or not it is useful or desired.


it takes considerable capital to start a business and it is highly doubtful that many unemployed have the capital to start their own business.
the idea that you can launch a business with little or no capital is really just a pipe dream. the number one reason businesses fail is because they are undercapitalized. and if memory serves me the failure rate for new businesses is eighty five percent.

[hcap]

I wonder what John Galt would do? Maybe invent a revolutionary engine to extract money out of thin air. You know like the car engine that extracted free energy out of static electricity in Atlas? My all time favorite Ayn Rand misconception of reality.

[Mike at A+]

If the recommendation is that unemployed people should look into starting businesses, the same logic should apply to the welfare slobs. Cut off their funds and let's see how they do. Fair? Democrats will have no part of that because they will lose votes en masse.

[hcap]

Does welfare slob include everyone on welfare? And if not what percentage are "slobs" and what percentage are truly needy and deserving?

[boxcar]

Does welfare slob include everyone on welfare? And if not what percentage are "slobs" and what percentage are truly needy and deserving?

Why don't you go dig up some charts and graphs to tell us, since you seem to think 99% of welfare recipients are welfare-worthy.

Remember 'cap: Only one of the ten lepers returned to express humble gratitude to Jesus. Maybe that dismal percentage would be good starting point?

Boxcar

[Tom]

Does welfare slob include everyone on welfare? And if not what percentage are "slobs" and what percentage are truly needy and deserving?

Many of us have gone over this before, but you just choose to ignore it and continue to spread your lie.

There are people who genuinely need help and are not getting it because of frauds, anchors, and other assorted lazy SOBs. YOU are the only one who keeps lumping everyone into one group, and you do it intentionally to mis-represent the issue. Nice try.

[WeirdWilly]

it takes considerable capital to start a business and it is highly doubtful that many unemployed have the capital to start their own business.
the idea that you can launch a business with little or no capital is really just a pipe dream. the number one reason businesses fail is because they are undercapitalized. and if memory serves me the failure rate for new businesses is eighty five percent.

So that means there is a 15% chance of success! And that 15% that do succeed put the other 85% to work. So where is the downside? If you are successful great! If not, dust yourself off, learn from your mistakes, and try again.

Or, like many, sit and whine and cry because those mean greedy people won't just let you sit on your subsidized ass without saying something to you!

As far as considerable capital, I suppose you have a point that all the roadblocks put up by the government do make it more difficult to compete against the big guys who RELISH the protective regulations they benefit from.

Some people NEED help. The elderly, the sick, the frail NEED our love and support.

Everyone else needs to get off their rumps and quit stealing from the truly needy.

[Mike at A+]

Does welfare slob include everyone on welfare? And if not what percentage are "slobs" and what percentage are truly needy and deserving?
How about we use people with no physical or mental disabilities as a starting point? You know, people who CAN work.

[hcap]

Many of us have gone over this before, but you just choose to ignore it and continue to spread your lie.

There are people who genuinely need help and are not getting it because of frauds, anchors, and other assorted lazy SOBs. YOU are the only one who keeps lumping everyone into one group, and you do it intentionally to mis-represent the issue. Nice try.Ok, I think there are those that are crooks and don't deserve help. I just asked what percentage, and while I am at it, is welfare itself acceptable as a social safety net? Or should that be left to private charity? You know where I stand on this. But my point is those that game the system are not a reason to flip out and they are not the reason for our economic mess.

[hcap]

How about we use people with no physical or mental disabilities as a starting point? You know, people who CAN work.
Ok, but contrary to Willy, a job is tough to get. Is anyone entitled to temporary help?

[Mike at A+]

Ok, but contrary to Willy, a job is tough to get. Is anyone entitled to temporary help?
I think EVERYONE is entitled to temporary help. But temporary turns into permanent and permanent turns into generational. There needs to be a point where the faucet gets turned off.

[boxcar]

Ok, I think there are those that are crooks and don't deserve help. I just asked what percentage, and while I am at it, is welfare itself acceptable as a social safety net? Or should that be left to private charity? You know where I stand on this. But my point is those that game the system are not a reason to flip out and they are not the reason for our economic mess.

Besides those who game the system (which I believe is probably a large percentage based on my knowledge of human nature), what about those who started out with the right intentions but after such a long period of time lose all desire and motivation and incentive to once again become productive members of society and in a very real sense become addicted to free, easy money? The longer we allow this endless welfare or unemployment bennies to continue, that free, easy money will only serve to addict more recipients by crushing any desire they once had to become productive members of society again. And I believe this is exactly what liberals want. They want as many dogs as possible feeding from the crumbs under their table!

An addict, by definition, is dependent upon the substance of his abuse. By politicians continually tempting recipients with more and more money, they are encouraging people to abuse the system and become totally dependent upon the government. In fact, the politicians themselves are abusing the American taxpayers with these endless extensions. It does not serve the long term public interest or the interest of welfare and UB recipients to perpetuate this kind of abuse. At some point, we must insist that enough is enough! No one ever said life is easy...or fair.

Boxcar

[bigmack]

Ok, but contrary to Willy, a job is tough to get.
Jobs are everywhere. Just a quick look in the local ads reveals:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/1933.png

[Tom]

Ok, I think there are those that are crooks and don't deserve help. I just asked what percentage, and while I am at it, is welfare itself acceptable as a social safety net? Or should that be left to private charity? You know where I stand on this. But my point is those that game the system are not a reason to flip out and they are not the reason for our economic mess.

No, they are not the reason, but, with the current economic conditions, I resent the HELL of having to carry other people and I resent the HELL of the stupidity of going after the so-called rich, while POS places like MSNBC get bailed out, the UAW steals GM, the bondholders are illegally screwed, and Obama keeps shooting off his big mouth ( you have no idea how much I enjoyed seeing that POS get his mouth bashed in!) about shared sacrifice while he and his miserable excuse of a family waster tax payer money. And when we get on about pork and ear marks, we are told is chump change.
Now these metal midgets are talking about doubling the gas tax?????

hcap, why the HELL should I keep a job and keep working when I could just become a stinking liberal and leech off the system?

[rastajenk]

That guy looks like he be wishing for some Global Warming.

[hcap]

No, they are not the reason, but, with the current economic conditions,

hcap, why the HELL should I keep a job and keep working when I could just become a stinking liberal and leech off the system?Well at least you realize that is not the main reason for the mess, but leeching off the system is pretty meager pickens. I suspect nor as many as you guys think are lazy nnon-deserving leeches. Most are there as a last resort. Certainly the unemployed should not ne painted with the same righty broad brush as leeches.

[boxcar]

Well at least you realize that is not the main reason for the mess, but leeching off the system is pretty meager pickens.

Depends on how smart and shrewd the leeches are. There's much "value" to be had when you consider the time-reward ratio involved with those "meager pickens". More than a few people wouldn't mind sitting around collectin' those "meager pickens", especially if they found other ways to earn income under the table, too.

Boxcar

[Mike at A+]

The difference between unemployment and welfare is that those receiving unemployment benefits actually worked at one time and likely paid taxes as well as an "insurance premium" for unemployment benefits. Welfare recipients in many cases simply come to this country and sign up for benefits with no intention of ever working. Not all of them but a significant number. I see them all the time on line in the grocery stores, dressed to the nines, bling aplenty and paying with food stamps. And they load up those shopping carts like they're throwing a party for a few dozen guests. We've all seen them. They don't speak English but they sure know how to get those checks.

[WeirdWilly]

Jobs are everywhere. Just a quick look in the local ads reveals:


Many people want jobs. Unfortunately,

A) Many people don't want to WORK, and
B) Many people let their egos about what constitutes an acceptable job keep them unemployed.

Next month, I am getting a promotion to operations manager of a $1 Million+ a year transportation company.

I did not get this job by sitting, moaning, groaning about how those nasty evil rich bastards are holding me down.

What I did was get in as a driver and hustle. I worked every shift I could and took every fare I could - profitable or not. I EARNED the respect of my employer by serving our clients with the utmost dignity, which helped us grow from 2 cars to 20 in two and a half years.

Got promoted to dispatcher, did the best job I could of getting accurate run information. Learned the business inside and out.

And now, as our (yes, I said OUR) company is beginning to prosper, I am rewarded with a management position.

Other people's mileage may vary, but when I see the "Oh Noes! No one can ever climb the ladder!" crud, all I can do is get frustrated at liberals' jealous obstruction of other people's success and potential.

[boxcar]

Many people want jobs. Unfortunately,

A) Many people don't want to WORK, and
B) Many people let their egos about what constitutes an acceptable job keep them unemployed.

Next month, I am getting a promotion to operations manager of a $1 Million+ a year transportation company.

I did not get this job by sitting, moaning, groaning about how those nasty evil rich bastards are holding me down.

What I did was get in as a driver and hustle. I worked every shift I could and took every fare I could - profitable or not. I EARNED the respect of my employer by serving our clients with the utmost dignity, which helped us grow from 2 cars to 20 in two and a half years.

Got promoted to dispatcher, did the best job I could of getting accurate run information. Learned the business inside and out.

And now, as our (yes, I said OUR) company is beginning to prosper, I am rewarded with a management position.

Other people's mileage may vary, but when I see the "Oh Noes! No one can ever climb the ladder!" crud, all I can do is get frustrated at liberals' jealous obstruction of other people's success and potential.

Congratulations, Willy! You're a credit both to your company and country.
And a hearty AMEN to your post. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Boxcar

[Tom]

Certainly the unemployed should not ne painted with the same righty broad brush as leeches.

OK, we agree here. I actually favor extending the benefits. 99 weeks...so what? The jobs are STILL gone, and GD Government is the reason why.
As long we pay congress, and Obama, and allow them to squander our money on themselves and their pork addiction, we can afford to take care of our own people, who were screwed by the last three presidents.
We need the American workers, we DO NOT need a government. Especially this one, so full of the scum of the earth.

FUBO

[Tom]

Way to go Willie! :ThmbUp:

But I would keep it quiet if I were you. Now the locals here will be demanding their cut of your success. You evil rich person, you!

[boxcar]

OK, we agree here. I actually favor extending the benefits. 99 weeks...so what? The jobs are STILL gone, and GD Government is the reason why.
As long we pay congress, and Obama, and allow them to squander our money on themselves and their pork addiction, we can afford to take care of our own people, who were screwed by the last three presidents.
We need the American workers, we DO NOT need a government. Especially this one, so full of the scum of the earth.

FUBO

But at what point, Tom, do these UBs become chronic?

Boxcar

[newtothegame]

Congrats willy...keep up the good work sir and you shall continue to be rewarded for your efforts!

[acorn54]

as far as leeching off the system, i think clinton signed the welfare reform bill which allows people to stay on welfare for only two years.

[bigmack]

Next month, I am getting a promotion to operations manager of a $1 Million+ a year transportation company.
Well done.

A mil a year is $20K/wk. That ain't much. Ask yourself how you might help them augment to 2-3mil/yr. When you're not working get online and research how other Trans Co's have increased their business. Print those articles out and bring them into your boss.

You're an integral part of a team now. Get involved and have interest in their prosperity.

[WeirdWilly]

Well done.

A mil a year is $20K/wk. That ain't much. Ask yourself how you might help them augment to 2-3mil/yr. When you're not working get online and research how other Trans Co's have increased their business. Print those articles out and bring them into your boss.

You're an integral part of a team now. Get involved and have interest in their prosperity.

Trust me - we've got A LOT more coming. As our markets, systems and procedures evolve, we foresee a day in the not too distant future where we are running (via leases and owner/operators) over a hundred and fifty vehicles in the state of Michigan. And that's based on the economy of Michigan from 2008 to 2010. Give us some actual economic GOOD news in Michigan, and who knows what we can do!

Our goal is to grow in a financially responsiibile way that a) upholds our customer service standards, b) gets our drivers paid, and c) maximizes the ROI of each vehicle.

The company owner mortgaged his house to start a business that is putting people to work in an occupation necessary to public safety and economic prosperity, while representing his poor battered city in a positive light: Yes, he's a horrible person because he is a, gulp, CAPITALIST ("oh my gaia! run for your lives")!

Or not.

[hcap]

Depends on how smart and shrewd the leeches are. There's much "value" to be had when you consider the time-reward ratio involved with those "meager pickens". More than a few people wouldn't mind sitting around collectin' those "meager pickens", especially if they found other ways to earn income under the table, too.

BoxcarThe reward/risk ratio rises as position of power and influence rises. Your theory of corruption of the human condition is centered to much on ordinary people struggling to make ends meet. Corruption unfortunately increases with opportunity and position. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Those who do the most damage to a society are the ones that pull the most strings. Wealthy and powerful private interests are presented all the time with opportunities to affect millions. The unemployed or those on welfare are relatively harmless compared to Goldman Sachs. Non transparent trades and convoluted financial instruments did more damage recently than all the welfare queens that ever existed could possibly do for the next 100 years Corruption is not limited to the small cheat.

[hcap]

http://www.bartcop.com/gop-bells.jpg

:cool: :cool:

[hcap]

http://www.mlive.com/michigan-job-search/index.ssf/2010/12/council_of_economic_advisers_federal_une.html

The CEA report on unemployment today Blocking extensions could cost as much as 600,000 jobs. It also points out the impact on children of the unemployed:

Importantly, approximately 42 percent of all EUC and EB recipients have, or live with, children. As of October 2010, 10.5 million children had benefited from EUC or EB through a household member. Further, 3 million of these children were in households where the UI recipient was the sole wage-earner. In total, about 40 million people had benefited from EUC or EB through at least one household member.

With regard to job loss, the report reiterates what we already know: If people have no money, they can't spend, buy, or pay their mortgage.

UI can mitigate this cycle by helping unemployed workers avoid precipitous drops in spending. Economic research has found that without UI, a typical family whose head of household becomes unemployed would spend 22 percent less on food – as compared to the 7 percent drop that is actually observed because of the UI system. 7 In addition, unemployment is a leading cause of mortgage defaults, and the income provided by UI helps avert foreclosures.

[fast4522]

Liberals are no longer in control of the debate or the order in which things will be voted on, get used to it! In the last election the party of Obama got slammed for one reason, failure to focus on jobs. The new agenda will have a pecking order that is best for jobs and controlling what is spent. It is not what some want today but rather how fast can our Government get people back to work. For the last two years the focus was exactly how to bankrupt our country with failed Carter/McGovernic ideas. The liberal agenda is and always was a complete failure against how this country ticks. We have had your change for the last two years, the people have soundly rejected it and now we move back to the way it should be but we also now must pay the bills for the last two years of mistakes which are enormous.

[fast4522]

The wasted time and money, we now all must pay for was not about helping poor people, but rather shifting our not yet hard earned money off shore. To me this is treason plain and simple. And you think Charlie Rangle was dealt a harsh punishment yesterday, just wait for the next few to be punished.

[hcap]

The wasted time and money, we now all must pay for was not about helping poor people, but rather shifting our not yet hard earned money off shore. To me this is treason plain and simple. .......I am very familar with your rants but what about extending unemployment benefits?

http://www.mlive.com/michigan-job-s...ederal_une.html

The CEA report on unemployment today Blocking extensions could cost as much as 600,000 jobs. It also points out the impact on children of the unemployed:

[Spiderman]

Getting to be a long thread. Reading the posts, I get that many of you are: 1) anti-welfare 2) afraid of people gaming the system

Should there be an income/asset test for employment benefits, similar to that for food stamps? If you have no other income or assets to put food on the table and pay for basic monthly expenses and have contributed the qualified amount of time at employment, you should receive extended benefits. If your assets are above the poverty level, you should not receive extended benefits.

I know that would not satisfy the anti-welfare posters. But, it would seem to be a human approach.

[fast4522]

Hcap, I doubt anyone wants to be mean to someone on unemployment period. What I am saying is the majority of the people here on PA could do a better job being the President Of The United States than Obama, excluding you, Mostpost and myself. A good change of course would bring this country into the 7 & 8 % unemployment in a few months, and from there many more months to get to 6 & 7 % range. Things will never be as you want ever, to think people give a shit what someone else wants is absurd because the majority wants out of this (not a rant but a fact).

[newtothegame]

Getting to be a long thread. Reading the posts, I get that many of you are: 1) anti-welfare 2) afraid of people gaming the system

Should there be an income/asset test for employment benefits, similar to that for food stamps? If you have no other income or assets to put food on the table and pay for basic monthly expenses and have contributed the qualified amount of time at employment, you should receive extended benefits. If your assets are above the poverty level, you should not receive extended benefits.

I know that would not satisfy the anti-welfare posters. But, it would seem to be a human approach.

Someone else mentioned it already but just so we are clear, welfare is different from unemployment benefits.
Unemployment benefits are "earned" by working for a period of time and the amount you get is determined by your wages and pay into the system.
The problem with unemployment benefits is NOT (in my opinion) a fault of the recipient. They are usually unemployed through no fault of their own. They usually want to work as a general rule.

So the question becomes,(1) how do we get them gainful employment? Or is there an indefinite time for them to recieve those benefits? My concern here is that the longer people have that "security blanket" in the form of compensation, what incentive is there to find gainful employment? (2) Secondly, is there gainful employment out there to be found?

The first of the last two questions come down to a person "pride" and if they really want to work. The second is oour governments problem is essence as thiings have to be put into place so that employers wish to hire due to a thriving economy and tax incentives.
The first answer is much harder to achieve without the second answer having a remedy. Our government (again in my opinion) has done NOTHING to get the economy moving. Stimulus does nothing but a very short term fix. And when you look at where alot of the money from the stimulus packages went, its even more obvious why its not working. Until this is fixed, question 1 become a moot point.

It's a catch twenty two until the government figures out that stimulus wont work as it has been applied, and that by raising taxes on business, they are only creating an environment where employers will be less and less reluctant to hire based on profits.

Now to the other part of your post regarding welfare.....There are generational families on the system. There is rampid cases of fraud. The system is being played like a violin. Serious oversight and follow up needs to happen on every case. There are case workers and why are there no house visits? It just needs overhaul in my opinion.

[rastajenk]

Another thing that seems to get lost is that no one is advocating killing unemployment totally. Just yet another extension. These are the 99-ers, aren't they? That's almost two years. They didn't get to this point overnight, like, "Whoa, I can't believe they're going to cut me off right before Christmas!" They've had a lot of time to lower their sights and try to get something beneath their dignity or previous pay grade, and so far they have chosen not to. Everyone's situation is different. In some areas even the bad choices are in short supply. But in others, there are low paying service jobs being filled by illegals willing to work because the locals won't. Something is better than nothing, and nothing is what many of these people have opted for so far.

The notion that folks on their second or third or fourth extension are somehow propping up the economy is ludicrous. There has to be an exit strategy for them, and it's best if they come up with the strategy themselves before the end times.

[boxcar]

The notion that folks on their second or third or fourth extension are somehow propping up the economy is ludicrous. There has to be an exit strategy for them, and it's best if they come up with the strategy themselves before the end times.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Well, it's a little late for that. We're in the "end times" and have been for awhile. But would you settle before the Second Coming? :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

[Tom]

:lol: :lol: :lol: Well, it's a little late for that. We're in the "end times" and have been for awhile. :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

The dems are in them for sure. I don't think there will be a second coming in our lifetime!

[Spiderman]

Someone else mentioned it already but just so we are clear, welfare is different from unemployment benefits.
Unemployment benefits are "earned" by working for a period of time and the amount you get is determined by your wages and pay into the system.
The problem with unemployment benefits is NOT (in my opinion) a fault of the recipient. They are usually unemployed through no fault of their own. They usually want to work as a general rule.

So the question becomes,(1) how do we get them gainful employment? Or is there an indefinite time for them to recieve those benefits? My concern here is that the longer people have that "security blanket" in the form of compensation, what incentive is there to find gainful employment? (2) Secondly, is there gainful employment out there to be found?

The first of the last two questions come down to a person "pride" and if they really want to work. The second is oour governments problem is essence as thiings have to be put into place so that employers wish to hire due to a thriving economy and tax incentives.
The first answer is much harder to achieve without the second answer having a remedy. Our government (again in my opinion) has done NOTHING to get the economy moving. Stimulus does nothing but a very short term fix. And when you look at where alot of the money from the stimulus packages went, its even more obvious why its not working. Until this is fixed, question 1 become a moot point.

It's a catch twenty two until the government figures out that stimulus wont work as it has been applied, and that by raising taxes on business, they are only creating an environment where employers will be less and less reluctant to hire based on profits.

Now to the other part of your post regarding welfare.....There are generational families on the system. There is rampid cases of fraud. The system is being played like a violin. Serious oversight and follow up needs to happen on every case. There are case workers and why are there no house visits? It just needs overhaul in my opinion.

Isn't the thread about an extension of benefits? And, that being part of a program to lower unemployment.

I understand the difference between employment insurance and welfare. Welfare recipients are closely scrutinized for gaming the system and must document, to the satisfaction of the case workers, that they are in or near the poverty level. Sure, there are cheats who manage to hide income and stay on the program eternally.

With employment insurance, a person shows the reason why they left their last place of employment; if they were laid-off because business was slow or it changed and they did not commit an act of theft, or an legal infraction, they receive employment insurance. There is no acid test of ability to support their household. They could be millionaires and their assets are never questioned.

When payroll deducts for employment insurance, it does not guarantee extensions. However, these are severely hard times for our fellow citizens and extending employment insurance will keep many families afloat. If you read , the Fiscal Responsibility Reform, which I linked on page 1 of this thread; on page 58, the committee deals with the issue of employment insurance. It looks to put mechanisms in place for the consideration of utilizing employment insurance.

[Tom]

When payroll deducts for employment insurance, it does not guarantee extensions. However, these are severely hard times for our fellow citizens and extending employment insurance will keep many families afloat.

Exactly. I look at the extensions as investments in Americans who were screwed and left high and dry by the government. I see no difference between the government and any other natural disaster, although probably worse than most.