NTRA PLAYERS PANEL

[karlskorner]

This is what they have come up with so far

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=18153

[kenwoodallpromos]

I need to bet more pools Maloney is in and take his money!! I really hope they do not look too closely at rebates if their bettors are not part of the track or simulcast pools. It may invite unwanted govt intrusion. As far as poker with them, they would all probably count cards anyway!LOL!

[andicap]

From the story

"Dave Gutfreund, a professional handicapper from Illinois, said handle in the United States has grown tremendously because of rebates. He and other panelists, including Mike Maloney, a professional handicapper from Kentucky, believe they serve an important purpose and at the same time don't negatively impact bettors that don't receive rebates."

-----
So are what these guys saying is that because I don't bet $1,000 a day I shouldn't receive a rebate, or am I interpreting their remarks wrongly?
I guess -- like in Vegas -- the best customers should get the best deals, but:
Players like myself who don't get rebates like the big guys will simply go off-share to places like Pinnacle that will give me rebates even if I just play $20 a race. I have long campaigned here against people going off-shore because I believed we had to support the industry.

But competition is good and if I can get a better offer someplace else, I will take it. I'm not even asking for 7%. If the racing industry would offer me something -- say 3% even -- I would take it in order to support
the horsemen. All I got are cheap offers from Autotote in CT -- Trophy Club or something like that which gives me the equivelant of a $25 rebate -- not even in cash -- for every $10,000 I bet. Thanks a lot.

[BillW]

Why complicate the issue with paperwork, just drop the takeout. :confused:

[so.cal.fan]

Because, Bill W..............



That makes too much sense!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[kenwoodallpromos]

Sounds to me like online facilities just pay tracks a commission much smaller and instead of the amount bet going into the track pools- online people make their own collateral pools. My conclusion is that online pool bettors lose much more often than track pool bettors, or else online facilities could not afford to give Any rebates!! Your net ROI has to be much better betting online! (but probably not good enough to cover the income tax takeout!) So those who win under $1,200.00 per bet consisitently and do not want net yearly gains reported are probably still betting in track pools receiving cash winnings with no records kept.
Winners may use online betting for potentially large exacta-type bets or bridgejumping.

[Suff]

i've been following it... I'm taking some notes during the Public Forum for future reference.

They are covering so many topics, its difficult to get a feel for what , if any impact it will have.

Hard to knock the intent. I'm in total agreement with Jim Quinn's opinion on THE NEED to increase handle, and build a larger fan base. 38.5 million people identify themselves as a Fan of horse racing.. but only 3 million of them wager anything. The rest,,, watch the Kentucky Derby once a year and call themselves a FAN.

The majority of Panelists seem focused on Catering to the whales or to the existing Fan base like me, and probably 99% of this Board. And thats all well and good. But racing needs a steady stream of new players

Fan Education is not the way to Grow the base In my opinion.

The game is to fragmented. NTRA needs to set standards or cut people off.

Big tracks need to stop selling thier signal to outlets that will not invest in technology. If you sell your signal to a track with a 9600 baud transfer rate.. Not only can't they keep up... they can't grow.

There's a mentatilty with the NTRA that it needs to support the smaller tracks to keep the industry in all parts of the country and help the smaller tracks survive.

I'm of the thinking of a TOP down theory. The example ...If Shaq left the NBA tommorrow, the minnosta timberwolves would drop in revenue. The big TRACKS are the BIG DRAW. The NTRA should work for the BIG tracks agenda's. Thats the best thing for the smallers as well...

Racing already has the people... 38 Million say they are FANS. But they will not bet.. because the game is to complicated and percieved incorrectly.

But with all circuits slaves to State Regulation. Setting a standard in racing is like watching a Tanker Truck do a U turn in an alley way.

I think the samller tracks have to go.... The larger tracks need to start using the available technology to enhance the product, simplify the product, and make it more marketable.

Golf is about the only Game I can think of that takes as much time to learn, Requires a shit load of money to learn...and even then... Your a Duffer. 12 handicap and you've been playing 10 years and spent about 80 Grand getting just that good.

I don't think there is enough of those 35 Million that do not bet that have the time to

1. Read a Few Books
2. Learn Handicapping
3. Go to the track often or set up an on-line wagering tool.
4. Read articles, Industry rags, and Internet sites to stay informed.
5. Lose... Thats an automatic for most "new" Horseplayers

And these efforts would be considered "standard" to having a shot of understanding The game.



The games to complicated... and its because Local tracks do not standardize with the Larger circuits.

I know some bright people that could go the track everyday for 3 Months and I'd bet over 1/2 of them would say... Interesting game" "but I don't have the time or money to learn it right now"


I could get into greater detail and perhaps I wll.. but thats all for now..

[Suff]

quick thought i intended to include in that Reply.

Black Jack isn't the Most Popular Table Game in the Casino because it's the best odds the house offers...

Its the Most Popular because more people understand it.

[Suff]

Been following the audio webcast...and have listened to the archived version three times...

Like I said...It's hard to knock the intent.. and some things are right on target.

The Tax and Regulatory legislation as it pertains to horse racing is archaic. In most states.. The Bingo laws are more current than the state laws...and the Federal Govt isn't any better.

We need to make Horse ownership more tax advantagous...and we need to make the state laws more Player friendly.

Just last year Massachusetts changed the law so Suffolk could keep the outs. It was 250k in 2001. Breakage and other things need reworking.


But my main points of disagreement is the way the NTRA should support the GROWTH of the industry. And the way the industry should get the 35 Million people who identify themselves as fan to actually start wagering.

They are proposing two main ideas. And actually they are implementing some things on thier own.

The NTRA does'nt beleive that "getting on a horse" or "getting on a rivalry" is the way to promote the business.

Considre this... Outside of California...and outside of the People that play the horses 2-3 months... How many people.. Regular people... knew about Azeri's 16 race winning streak?

Ask anyone.. who watched the Kentucky Derby and goes to the Race track 2-3 times a year...or even Once a year (when stronach has a concert)... If they had seen or heard anything about Azeri 6 months ago. I live in an area where racing is in the Paper everyday...and there is a Local Racing show on Cable...and still.. the people that go infrequently to the track...and identify themsleves as a "racing fan".. never heard of Azeri.

Because the NTRA does'nt believe it should promote the game by promoting individual animals or individual circuits. Or even the Funnycide-empire maker relationship... That never materialized but you get the Point.

I strongly disagree with that. This is what gets the 35 Million people who identify as racing fans...to say they are racing fans... Stories like Azeri's..and rivalries between animals and circuits.

The NTRA in its efforts to be a league office... trys to hard to spread its power and resources to all the tracks..and believes That promoting the game "as a whole" will work.


Jim Quinn said... and I disagree.. That he wants "Fan education" seminars at all NTRA tracks. He thinks that if people were educated in "How to play" the game..that they will.

I say... It will not work. People will not go where they do not want to go. Getting many people to congrigate, at a fixed time, at a fixed place, that do not want to be there is impossible.

Lets ask Reid Mclennnan. Racing education Manager at SHRP. He'll tell you... Its the same people everynight. The locals Looking for a tip, or looking to shoot the breeze about racing. Or the Occassional "whats an exacta?" question.

The potential player , independent, intelligent, with 5-10K of disposable income up for grabs...is not going to go to these things..and if he did...it'd be once or twice...

This is not the way to grow the base in my opinion.


Next.. They suggest a "Profile the Proffesional" segment at race tracks... Where they take a Proven professional player and Highlight his approach to the game and put him on display, if you will, for all to see.. That, in fact , you can beat the game.

And what do they say they hope to convey with these Professionals? And I am quoting

"If you hit 30% at 5/2 average mutual you have a 12% edge on the game...and if you can get really hot and go 40% at an average mutual of 5/2 you have a 22% edge on the game"

and this speaker goes on to qualify that 40% win rate and 5/2 average with "some meets you can get really hot"

The NTRA wants to tell the guy who comes 4 times a year with a $100.00 that if he can "Miracously" hit 40% at 5/2. he can have $244.00 instead of $200 ?

Thats there Pitch. Too funny.....


I say.. You gotta pound these marketing opportunities like Azeri and Funnycide.. You got to get on TV and romance the stories.. Tell the people a story.. a story they love to hear... about a Broken down Gelded Horse that got Bought for pennies and is taking on the Million Dollar Horses... You gotta Hook them.

And you got to tell the people about the GREAT LADY out west who has won 16 in a row...and the Boys want a shot at her... and so on..

Once you get them coming more often..and betting more often.. Then the Goal of them learning the game starts...and I think The NTRA should not hold up a 12% edge as the Hook. The game is To complicated and I could go on all day about that...and I will, later in the week.

One other quick note about the Players Panel. I don't know wtf Steve Crist is doing on a Players Panel. Why? He does'nt even take care of the customers he has...now he wants to tell the tracks how to do it?

[cj]

I think selling the horses or rivalries won't work, they just aren't around long enough. People know the Red Sox and the Bears will be there every year, but the horses change too often. Look at the Breeder's Cup this year, even the classic. The top 6 horses from the year probably won't even run (Candy Ride, Mineshaft, Perfect Ride, Funny Cide, Empire Maker, Azeri.) How do you sell the horses when there is no guarentee they will show up and they constantly duck competition to find easier purses.

I think the best way to promote racing is the money part of it. You can strike it rich in this game. Show huge P6 scores. I know not everyone has the bankroll for this, but how about P3, P4, and superfecta payoffs? They happen every day, huge ones. Some life changing, many at least year changing. Why do people pull a slot in AC or Vegas? The chance of a big score. We all know that blackjack and craps offer the best odds, but the lottery and slot machines can change your life. Most people have no idea how much you can win on a single race!

Just a few thoughts...btw, Azeri only won 11 in a row :)

[WINMANWIN]

I know its quite nobel and just for the N.T.R.A to come up with new ideas, to increase wagering and fan attendance for the good of the game. I have 1 sentence for the N.T.R.A. 'Concentrate
on your Current Fan base' Work with the tracks and states to
Lower the takeouts on all Bets. It's apparent to me, That WE the players, deserve better percentages on take-outs, when these card parlor's, slot's, and VLT'S are springing up, in every racing state
The horseman, Owners, Etc are getting Rewarded with More Money, but the players, are GETTING ZILCH. If the N.T.R.A
wants too add more players, I can understand there mission, It's
a tuff 1 indeed. Quite honestly, I wouldnt tell my friends to get involved in this game very seriously, It takes years of knowledge,
composure, and GUT WRENCHING Agita. I think the panel is on the right track, and they have to addreess many issues, But as players, We want LOWER takeouts 1st, so we can see some more bucks, that can be Churned Right Back into the Game. If the states and tracks are making More Bucks with these RaceCinio's, We the FANS, that have supported this GAME, deserve a SLICE ALSO. :mad:

[Valuist]

I don't know if any of the marketing stuff ever works although the new NTRA radio spots are the best thing they've come up with yet. Get the takeout lowered to 10% to compete on an even level with sports betting. Which is more easier on the nerves to wager on? A horse race that lasts 70 seconds or a 3 hour football game? Who wants to be on a rollercoaster for 3 hours for the same bet when they can make far more wagers in that same time frame at the track.

If they are going to market, I'd concentrate on baseball fans. Why? For some reason, there seems to be a strong correlation to being a baseball fan and being a racing fan. I don't know why this is, but I've seen too much evidence to support it. Maybe its the day to day grind; maybe its the idea you can fail 70% of the time and still do well. Who knows?

[kenwoodallpromos]

watching baseball and racing- with both one can think very slowly about the strategy, advancing players all move in the same direction, violence is accidental, and horsehide is criticall to the sport!

[Suff]

I suppose the Money angle could be a Hook. But 12% on your $125.00 bank roll won't get to many excited. Foxwoods commercials show people living like Kings, to the tune of "The wonder of it all".

Its sort of like the Beer commercials... They show you drinking a BUD and rolling around in a pool with SuperModels.. when the reality is you drink enough BUD and you end up rolling around on the sidewalk in front of a Bar with some Guy that looked at you wrong. I'm so obnoxious when I'm drunk.. I could'nt get a date in a womens prison with a fist full of pardons.

I still say you gotta market what gets people there to begin with.. The horses. Yes the examples CJ gives are valid. But there are still many many opportunities to market the Animals.

It goes back to my "Shaq" analogy...or even better. Michael Jordan. The entire NBA lost revenue when he retired. The people want to be associatted with a sport that has Superstars.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Dpn't fprget they banned Zippy Chiipy at Middle Finger Lakes to STOP people from gambling on the best-loved racehorse in the world!! And Zippy just paid over $4.00 to show!! What's up?

[kenwoodallpromos]

They should make Zippy the official NTRA mascot! 98 races and never an injury! ITM % better than a lot!!