How much money do you make or lose each year on racing?

[raybo]

I think I may be losing touch with reality, after seeing someone say that making thousands of dollars on racing wasn't worth their time. Here's a poll on gains and losses, please set me straight so I don't go to the grave wondering if what I've been doing for half my life was a waste of time.

Oh, if it's possible for you, be honest.

[cj]

I will say per year is tricky. It is still, after all, gambling.

[raybo]

I will say per year is tricky. It is still, after all, gambling.

Yeah I thought about that after posting the poll. Maybe an average would do.

[raybo]

Remember guys/gals, this is about wagering only, no other income counts.

[Cubbymac26]

I figure I lose around 15000 a year...I figure this based on I make 750 take home dealing cards...I leave early usually after 6 hours so that's 36000 cash my rent is 1250 a month tv is 125 electric 100 food gas 100 a week and say 300 a month on everyday expenses so 36000 minus all expenses the fact I have like 700 in my pocket equals me being stuck 15000

U can't win I hit a pick 6 at hol for 16500 me and my friend partners...I won 5400 last year but before that I walked out losing 82.6 percent lol...

Now I win playing cards so that offsets it


The moral of the storie is if god never invented/created horses I'd have a ton

But if god didn't create horses it would mean more time with the woman....worth losing :lol:

[bigmack]

The moral of the storie is if god never invented/created horses I'd have a ton
How do you expect to stand a chance in this game if you don't have the wherewithal to spell story?

You might like horses but I'd avoid plunking money on 'em.

[Cubbymac26]

How do you expect to stand a chance in this game if you don't have the wherewithal to spell story?

You might like horses but I'd avoid plunking money on 'em.

Anytime u wanna have a spelling bee or any kind of iq test we can arrange that...obvious spelling mistake guess u have nothing better to do then to bust balls at 132 am...

I'm trying to be active in a gambling forum now I'm getting nit picked by a $2 bettor..maybe the occasional $5 bettor

[serp]

Has anyone done about the same in multiple years? I've only really sunk money into it for 2 years now but both years have been completely different in results (I tell my wife I just got better at it the second year).

Maybe those that have done it for a long time can average it out for a per year number.

[eastie]

How do you expect to stand a chance in this game if you don't have the wherewithal to spell story?

You might like horses but I'd avoid plunking money on 'em.


the wherewithal ? and a spelling lesson too, from a pedant in the middle of the desert at 1:30 in the morning. If you told it to a mule, he'd kick you.
You spelled your name wrong too. Shouldn't it be Big Mac ? or is too many of them what made you Big Mack ?

[therussmeister]

Has anyone done about the same in multiple years? I've only really sunk money into it for 2 years now but both years have been completely different in results (I tell my wife I just got better at it the second year).

Maybe those that have done it for a long time can average it out for a per year number.

I do about the same most years if I play about the same number of days. This is because I don't play the pick 6, and I play enough races every year to effectively reduce variance.

[Exotic1]

the wherewithal ? and a spelling lesson too, from a pedant in the middle of the desert at 1:30 in the morning. If you told it to a mule, he'd kick you.
You spelled your name wrong too. Shouldn't it be Big Mac ? or is too many of them what made you Big Mack ?

That is very funny.

[bigmack]

The depth of stupidity.

Some rube who spells story, 'storie' :lol:

Mindless goofs who talk about the time of day and can't figure out time differences. A workin' stiff dealing cards and pissing away $15K on nags. And a Teamster trying to connect the spelling of a moniker to a fast food sandwich.

Some big brains goin' on here. :eek:

[Cubbymac26]

The depth of stupidity.

Some rube who spells story, 'storie' :lol:

Mindless goofs who talk about the time of day and can't figure out time differences. A workin' stiff dealing cards and pissing away $15K on nags. And a Teamster trying to connect the spelling of a moniker to a fast food sandwich.

Some big brains goin' on here. :eek:

Classic scum.....so I guess ur blasting everybody that works here....I'm sure ur buried in your parents basement the last 40 years

Your the asshole that prob takes up 2 spots at the racetrack bar and drives away would be players like a true degenerate know it all

Can't believe wasting my time with this reply but with no harness or no football and your wife not at my house yet I got a few extra minutes

[GaryG]

Just keep betting....you are a dying breed...:jump: :jump:

[johnhannibalsmith]

Annual Income - Annual Expenses = amount I lost

[raybo]

Come on guys, I asked for honesty in the poll.

There have been 60 voters thus far and at least 1/3 of that 60 win over $1000 per year. I find this very hard to believe.

If you must stoke your own ego, please take note that this poll is anonymous, nobody knows who makes or loses what. So, why lie about your success or failure.

For once in your life, tell the truth. If you find that impossible then please don't vote at all. Otherwise the poll is meaningless, and a waste of your time as well as everyone else's.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Come on guys, I asked for honesty in the poll.

There have been 60 voters thus far and at least 1/3 of that 60 win over $1000 per year. I find this very hard to believe.

If you must stoke your own ego, please take note that this poll is anonymous, nobody knows who makes or loses what. So, why lie about your success or failure.

For once in your life, tell the truth. If you find that impossible then please don't vote at all. Otherwise the poll is meaningless, and a waste of your time as well as everyone else's.

Come on you didn't know everyone on Pace is an above-avg gambler. :rolleyes: Personally, I selected win or lose $1k, and it's usually lose.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I figure I lose around 15000 a year...I figure this based on I make 750 take home dealing cards...I leave early usually after 6 hours so that's 36000 cash my rent is 1250 a month tv is 125 electric 100 food gas 100 a week and say 300 a month on everyday expenses so 36000 minus all expenses the fact I have like 700 in my pocket equals me being stuck 15000

U can't win I hit a pick 6 at hol for 16500 me and my friend partners...I won 5400 last year but before that I walked out losing 82.6 percent lol...

Now I win playing cards so that offsets it


The moral of the storie is if god never invented/created horses I'd have a ton

But if god didn't create horses it would mean more time with the woman....worth losing :lol:

You lose 42% of your take-home pay betting on horses? Might be time to bet a lot less/race or far fewer races?!!

[Zippy Chippy]

Are the people joking that say they win over 100k on horses? I find that impossible to believe.

[skate]

I think I may be losing touch with reality, after seeing someone say that making thousands of dollars on racing wasn't worth their time. Here's a poll on gains and losses, please set me straight so I don't go to the grave wondering if what I've been doing for half my life was a waste of time.

Oh, if it's possible for you, be honest.


when ya leaving?

welp, if one looks at racing as "make a living" situation, which included a full time 40 hour per week needed and we use your quote of thousands (5,000/6.000), then your friend(?) would be el correcto.

However, we cant consider "it" a waste, just look at how far you;ve come,babe.;)

[bigmack]

Are the people joking that say they win over 100k on horses? I find that impossible to believe.
I find it unbelievable that a person would find that impossible to believe.

I have got to spend more time in this section of the forum. It's entertainin'.

[Greyfox]

I have got to spend more time in this section of the forum. It's entertainin'.

You got that right bigmack.
So far this thread has been funnier than watching The Honeymooners. :lol:

[Stillriledup]

four people voted win 100k.

:liar:

[Greyfox]

four people voted win 100k.

:liar:

Who are the other 3? :lol:

[wisconsin]

four people voted win 100k.

:liar:


I love how so many are "about even". Where have we heard that one before?

:liar:

[Zman179]

Two people answered that they LOSE 100K per year. :faint:

I answered that I lose $1000 per year. I really lose more than that, but less than $5K. I just call it an "expensive hobby."

[Cubbymac26]

I wanna meet the people who win 100k plus on horses..I mean if u hit a pk 6 for 75g that's one thing but I find it next to impossible to believe it...

If anybody can prove to me they win 100000 a year I'll blow them cuz their my hero

[Greyfox]

If anybody can prove to me they win 100000 a year I'll blow them cuz their my hero

:eek: Honest. I didn't make a hundred G's. If I did I'd rather give my $ 100,000 back than accept that offer. ( Whew, what class.:rolleyes: )

[bigmack]

If anybody can prove to me they win 100000 a year I'll blow them cuz their my hero
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/fool.png

Almost a million posts from over 18,000 members and you're the biggest fool of all.

How does it feel, Champ?

[bcgreg]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/fool.png

Almost a million posts from over 18,000 members and you're the biggest fool of all.

How does it feel, Champ?

Bigmack,

Where do you think you rank...calling someone a fool?

Regards,
bcgreg

[Greyfox]

Bigmack,

Where do you think you rank...calling someone a fool?

Regards,
bcgreg

You've got to be kidding. Bigmack ranked that post spot on the money.
If you don't see that, I'll sell you an eye chart and some comprehension lessons.
Spot on bigmack.

[fmhealth]

I lose about $40.00 per week now, about $2,000/year. I really just attend TUP now that I'm retired to sit in the sun year round & read the WSJ. In my younger days these numbers were MUCH higher. Estimate I've lost about $300,000 in my 52 years 'capping.

[bcgreg]

You've got to be kidding. Bigmack ranked that post spot on the money.
If you don't see that, I'll sell you an eye chart and some comprehension lessons.
Spot on bigmack.

I see your point, after reading the post again...

Too many drinks too early tonight...LOL!

My apologies Bigmack.

Regards,
bcgreg

[raybo]

I lose about $40.00 per week now, about $2,000/year. I really just attend TUP now that I'm retired to sit in the sun year round & read the WSJ. In my younger days these numbers were MUCH higher. Estimate I've lost about $300,000 in my 52 years 'capping.

Now, there's honesty! Appreciate it.

[bigmack]

please set me straight so I don't go to the grave wondering if what I've been doing for half my life was a waste of time.
How will this poll help resolve questions you have about the way you've spent your time?

[raybo]

How will this poll help resolve questions you have about the way you've spent your time?

Well, if the poll turns out the way I believe it should, then there's a vast majority of players who wouldn't call working hard and studying hard, for 30+ years, and reaching the goal of profitability, a waste of time (no matter how small the profitability).

For some, it appears, being merely profitable is a waste of time (the amount of yearly profit was stated as $25,000, and a waste of time).

The poll, thus far, is not realistic, in my mind. But, I think as time goes by all the members here that cannot be honest and realistic will have voted, and then the poll, and the thread, will begin to show that there are vast numbers of players who are losing (or winning very little) but don't think it's a waste of time to endeavor to attain, even a small level of profitability.

The journey is what it's all about. That's how I feel about my experience in the game. And, unless I'm proven wrong somehow, I don't regret all the time and effort I've put into it in order to reach my goal.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
If anybody can prove to me they win 100000 a year I'll blow them cuz their my hero

Oh how I wish I had a photo of one particular person so you could think about whether that offer still stands... :lol:

[Zippy Chippy]

I say i lose about 10k per year , this year much much more. I don't put the time into it that the winners do. I also count it as an expensive hobby.

[Dave Schwartz]

For some, it appears, being merely profitable is a waste of time (the amount of yearly profit was stated as $25,000, and a waste of time).

Raybo,

You continue to quote me out of context. I am asking you, as politely as possible to please stop doing that.

If you want to have a serious discussion about my quote and state "your side" of the argument, then go for it. I'll give you my side first:


I said that $25,000 per year does not allow most people to give up their jobs to play the horses. By your own admission, your approach is very time consuming. Time does not grow on trees.

Simply put, most people would not choose to live at the poverty level. If you can live on $25,000 per year, good for you.

Okay, now if you have a different side to this, please fire away.


Dave Schwartz

[raybo]

Raybo,

You continue to quote me out of context. I am asking you, as politely as possible to please stop doing that.

If you want to have a serious discussion about my quote and state "your side" of the argument, then go for it. I'll give you my side first:


I said that $25,000 per year does not allow most people to give up their jobs to play the horses. By your own admission, your approach is very time consuming. Time does not grow on trees.

Simply put, most people would not choose to live at the poverty level. If you can live on $25,000 per year, good for you.

Okay, now if you have a different side to this, please fire away.


Dave Schwartz

Your original quote said nothing about people giving up their jobs to play horses for $25,000 per year. You said that trying to make $25,000 per year would be a waste of your time, nothing about you giving up your job.

You explained what you "meant" in a later post. By that time the poll idea was already in the works. I didn't mention who it was that made the statement, no matter who had made that statement, it would still have sounded just as odd to me.

[Dave Schwartz]

Okay, so now you have it in very clear context.

I am saying:

Making $25,000 per year for most people will mean playing a significant number of hours per week; much like a job.

Most people cannot afford to give up that much time because it would mean giving up their job.

$25,000 per year is not sufficient for most people to give up their job.


I hope that is really clear so that you can stop using my quote out of context.


Dave Schwartz

[raybo]

Okay, so now you have it in very clear context.

I am saying:




I hope that is really clear so that you can stop using my quote out of context.


Dave Schwartz

Fair enough. Done.

[Dave Schwartz]

Thank you.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Thank you.

Here's your original quote Dave:

"Raybo,

I can't disagreed with anything you said.

The point of my post is that for some people - and I am one of those people - playing to make $25k per year would just be a waste of my time.

Of course, everyone's mileage will differ. For some people it might be thrilling to make $20 instead of losing $10,000.

So, if the patience approach isn't going to meet your goals, you have to find a way to NEED less patience (i.e. a less selective approach) or dump that approach altogether.


Dave
PS: I am not trying to be snobby about this. I might feel differently if it were golf."


It didn't come off as smoothly as the one you quoted of yourself bro.Reading it outside of your own mind that is!!:)



__________________

[rstone]

I picked the "win or lose under 1,000" option. I've been awful this year so I'm down about $2500, I've won a few years, lost a few years. Never won more than 4,000, never lost more than 5,000. I just love the sport and have the action itch, that's why I play. Not as a source of any real income, I consider every dollar I lose at the track money spent on entertainment.

[Dave Schwartz]

Thanks for your help, Cincy.

Nevertheless, it is a true statement.

And I explained it (I think) three times now.


Dave Schwartz

[newtothegame]

For myself, Ray, Ive got to say that my selection will only skew your results or what you may be looking for.
I am nothing more then a PT player. And that's very PT.
Mine is less then a 1,000 either way.
For that matter, I don't even wager that much throughout the year.
I play the BIG races...derby, BC, and a few days at the FG's (which is soon opening yeaaaayyyy).
For me personally, its PURE ENTERTAINMENT. Do I try to learn and win ??? Without a doubt. But I really am spending ALOT more time still learning before I try to go out and place anything of substance in wagers.
Some will say "how do you know if your learning if your not practicing"? Well, to them i would reply it takes alot of honesty and alot of paper lol. And my results have shown so far that I need to stick to learning and paper lol.

[PhantomOnTour]

Better to lose on paper than at the windows.

[newtothegame]

Better to lose on paper than at the windows.

Thats the thought! I spend more on food and beer then the windows usually lol

[bigmack]

I laugh at people assuming you can't make consistent money playing. The usual tipoff is they refer to it as 'winning' money when in fact it's making money.

The reason there are so many threads, for so many years, and so many books and so many methods, with so many players still without a clue is that it is a VERY difficult game to consistently make money with.

Those that do work extremely hard at it and deserve every nickel they make.

You want to get a thrill and don't mind parting with dough? Have a ball.

You want to take it serious and think you have what it takes to be successful? Get to work. Meanwhile, don't ever doubt that people win consistently from hours & hours of work while others are worried about other endeavors.

I live in an area replete with Navy Seals and see many fail. They say only the best of the best make it. From what I know, 'making it' in this game takes twice the effort of what they endure but it can, and is, being done.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Thanks for your help, Cincy.

Nevertheless, it is a true statement.

And I explained it (I think) three times now.


Dave Schwartz

I'm 100% percent sure it is Dave.I'm only a 10,000-15,000 bet a year guy trying to get a 40-60% ROI which I do often or at the very least suffer a 11-25% loss on a year,which can be hit or miss.Have had great seasons and miniscule ones.But in light of your numbers the ROI is a hill of beans.I hope I can get to your level some day my man.I'm just sayin that one quote of yours you were skipping across heads like they were just bumps in the road.Us kinfolk over here like ta win too.It might not be of that magnitude,at least not yet,but beating the percentages is a place to start.

Just don't break me down because I'm trying to win $2500.00 or better on a bad year.I'm already starstruck talking to one of the guys I always idolized.

Rod

[MPRanger]

TUP has a 20% takeout in the win pool. You aren't supposed to win there. If you aren't playing simulcast tracks then you are doing the right thing by just reading the paper in the sun.

[raybo]

For myself, Ray, Ive got to say that my selection will only skew your results or what you may be looking for.
I am nothing more then a PT player. And that's very PT.
Mine is less then a 1,000 either way.
For that matter, I don't even wager that much throughout the year.
I play the BIG races...derby, BC, and a few days at the FG's (which is soon opening yeaaaayyyy).
For me personally, its PURE ENTERTAINMENT. Do I try to learn and win ??? Without a doubt. But I really am spending ALOT more time still learning before I try to go out and place anything of substance in wagers.
Some will say "how do you know if your learning if your not practicing"? Well, to them i would reply it takes alot of honesty and alot of paper lol. And my results have shown so far that I need to stick to learning and paper lol.

Newtothegame,

Thank you for your post.

What you describe, IMO, is at the crux of the subject. Everyone must start somewhere. Very few players start profitably. The vast majority start in the red. That's to be expected, unfortunately, because the game is so dense with variables, and randomness.

This is a main reason, again IMO, for the decline in the "customer base" for the industry. For a new player to have to start "in the red", and then, despite the difficulty of turning that around, to continue as a player, there must be reasons that keep them in the game. Entertainment and excitement, certainly, are at the top of the list, as in your case I assume. However, since this industry has gambling as it's chief source of revenue, then gamblers are attracted. I'm not talking about the addictive gambler, rather the investive gambler. Such a player seeks profit, not loss. The struggle to become profitable is, generally, long and difficult. His initial lofty expectations, over time, become less and less lofty, as he experiences month after month and year after year of losses. So, after some period of time his "goal" declines to the point of attaining "profitability", any level of profitability.

As I expected the poll is beginning to show the realities of the financial balance sheet of the players. There appears to be a good percentage of players hovering right around "break even", winning or losing less than $1000 per year. Also, the other levels below break even, seem to be starting to represent reality more closely.

For most of these players, a small positive shift would be of some importance for them, I believe. A logical step in this belief would lead one to assume that attaining the level of "profitability" would be of huge importance.

I applaud your "paper" wagering philosophy! I "played" that way for 20 years before actually wagering "real" money, of any significance.

However, most new players do not take that route, which can be unfortunate for them if it negatively affects there livability.

Attaining "break even" or slight profitability, would prevent much of that negative affect on livability.

[Cubbymac26]

Hmmmmmm bigmack being your the master horseplayer and I'm the working stiffbag I'm willing to post 10 grand over a 30 race stretch on $2win place bets..winning total after 30 takes it down...harness flats or dogs however u pick them is ur call

Best part is I live by a naval base and see people from the navy all the time maybe u
Live by me

Let me know if your interested

[prospector]

i'm in the $1000 win/lose category...what helps me is the comps from the casino..
i've also learned my limits...for some reason my horses rarely win..but almost always place or show..so i stopped betting win and only bet place or rolling show parleys..find it cheaper and more fun..

[Zippy Chippy]

I have a very serious question for those that make 100k plus, but afraid to post it since everyone here is on pins and needles and ready to jump down someones throat that has a question about it.

[cj]

I have a very serious question for those that make 100k plus, but afraid to post it since everyone here is on pins and needles and ready to jump down someones throat that has a question about it.

The results of this poll are ridiculous.

[Zippy Chippy]

The results of this poll are ridiculous.

My question is, honestly. If you are very very good at handicapping and make 100k a year, why is there a limit on what you can make? Why couldn't you up every bet by 5x and make 500,000? Im guessing the bets aren't that high that it would effect the pools.

[Cubbymac26]

Bunch of bs artists here....people are afraid to admit they lose I guess

[Dave Schwartz]

Zippy,

Obviously, there is a limit. Pool size does make a difference.

But the biggest issue is comfort zone. What is the most money you ever wagered on a horse? For me, it is $2,200.

To quote (I hope correctly) Michael Pizzolla:


Anyone who thinks that making a $5 bet and a $500 bet is the same thing has obviously never made a $500 bet.


Dave

[Zippy Chippy]

Zippy,

Obviously, there is a limit. Pool size does make a difference.

But the biggest issue is comfort zone. What is the most money you ever wagered on a horse? For me, it is $2,200.

To quote (I hope correctly) Michael Pizzolla:




Dave

I bet $500 twice. But $100 is a huge bet for me. $100k is about 2k per week. If you are making 2k per week (i know its only an average), then the bets aren't obviously thousands a race. I guess im confused if the people making the money are doing, wins, tris, exactas etc. I guess what im wondering is if you always have a positive expectation in the longrun why not bet twice as much and make 200k? Im guessing a lot of what has to do not doubling bets is the money swings.

[cj]

Pool size. I'm sure comfort of bet size plays into it as well, but pool size is #1.

[raybo]

The results of this poll are ridiculous.

I think over time this poll will start approaching reality, due to the fact that those members who want us to think they're something they're not, at least the ones who haven't voted yet, will begin to realize that they, by voting that they make a profit when they don't, are really lowering their desired status as one of the 1 or 2% of profitable players. All they will accomplish, by voting dishonestly, is to join a group, consisting primarily, of liars.

I am more interested in the numbers generated at or below the "break even" mark, anyway. And, those numbers are increasing, now that the egotists have jumped in early and voted dishonestly, and theoretically, joined the elite.

[bigmack]

.harness flats or dogs however u pick them is ur call

Are you any better at rock, paper, scissors than you are at harness, flats or dogs? That's my specialty.

[Handiman]

Let's cut the Bullshit here and be honest. This is one of the hardest games to make money at.....BlackJack is easier to make money at as is poker.

The guys who make real money at this game, I would bet a dollar to a doughnut, are making it with a combination of Breaking even or a small profit and then dragging down some awesome rebate money.

I know a guy who shows a very small profit on a race and many times on a race his profit is overshadowed by the rebate he gets. I say small profit which is in direct relation to his bet size.

I know another guy who doesn't make as much money and actually can't quite break even but is in profit due to amount made through rebates.

I'm sure there must be guys who make money without rebates, But I suggest to you that they are few and far between.

Just my $0.02

Handi on Vacation in North Carolina:)

[raybo]

I laugh at people assuming you can't make consistent money playing. The usual tipoff is they refer to it as 'winning' money when in fact it's making money.

The reason there are so many threads, for so many years, and so many books and so many methods, with so many players still without a clue is that it is a VERY difficult game to consistently make money with.

Those that do work extremely hard at it and deserve every nickel they make.

You want to get a thrill and don't mind parting with dough? Have a ball.

You want to take it serious and think you have what it takes to be successful? Get to work. Meanwhile, don't ever doubt that people win consistently from hours & hours of work while others are worried about other endeavors.

I live in an area replete with Navy Seals and see many fail. They say only the best of the best make it. From what I know, 'making it' in this game takes twice the effort of what they endure but it can, and is, being done.

I agree with your statement that it is possible, and is being done, to make consistent profit in this game.

However, there is an extremely limited percentage of players who possess the needed mental, psychological, and disciplinarian attributes, as well as the willingness to invest the time and effort required to become, or remain, consistently profitable.

[Dave Schwartz]

However, there is an extremely limited percentage of players who possess the needed mental, psychological, and disciplinarian attributes, as well as the willingness to invest the time and effort required to become, or remain, consistently profitable.


:ThmbUp:

Absolutely right, Raybo.

[raybo]

Zippy,

Obviously, there is a limit. Pool size does make a difference.

But the biggest issue is comfort zone. What is the most money you ever wagered on a horse? For me, it is $2,200.

To quote (I hope correctly) Michael Pizzolla:




Dave

The largest wager I've ever made on 1 race was $64, and I had to force myself to do that. I think the super paid around $3k, so it worked out, but, an average wager size, for me, is $18-$24.

There is absolutely no way in heck I would ever wager anywhere close to that kind of money on a win, place, show, or exacta ticket. The risk/reward ratio is just too low.

[thaskalos]

Here is what I think of "comfort levels".

"Comfort levels" are convenient excuses for those "winning" horseplayers who have serious doubts about their abilities to win. They claim to treat this game "as a business", and then freeze at the thought of putting down a decent sized wager...even if their bankrolls can fully support it.

Think about this:

A guy starts a business, and soon his store proves to be too small to properly accommodate his customers. He is convinced that an expansion is needed, and that this expansion would greatly increase his "bottom line". Would this businessman hesitate in increasing the size of his store, if he had - or could borrow - the money? Of course not.

Compare this to what we have in horseracing.

Supposedly, there are all these winning players who treat the game "as a business" and have grown their bankrolls over time...some with truly admirable ROI. They have years of profitable play under their belts - so, lack of confidence should not be a factor. Their bankrolls are supposedly totally independent from the money used for their living expenses too...so fear should not be a factor either.

But upon closer inspection, we find that these "businessmen" cannot take their business to the next level. They are stuck earning "meager" wages...NOT because the game is too tough to beat - but because THEY refuse to invest the money necessary to transform themselves into SUBSTANTIAL winners. They make small bets, eventhough they are convinced that bigger bets would mean BIGGER PROFITS to them.

What is the reason for this "madness"? Have they taken a vow of poverty?

Don't they know that we need COURAGE, as well as knowledge, if we aspire to be winners in this game?

[Greyfox]

Here is what I think of "comfort levels".

"Comfort levels" are convenient excuses for those "winning" horseplayers who have serious doubts about their abilities to win.


Poppycock. Comfort levels are for real and pervade all athletes until they can break through them. They are not excuses, they are facts.

[TurfRuler]

Whether the poll takers are honest or being untruthful about their profits from wagering, this is the most depressing thread I've have ever read at this site PaceAdvantage, where the members are to my belieft players who seek to make a profit from wagering on horse racing. The Horror, the Horror of what the responses are is unbelievable. This is fodder for everyone who is anti-gambling or anti-horseracing in markets where there is no such activity. Most who are replying are saying that all anyone does who wager on a horserace are :bang: And then the spellchecker chimes in to make a comment, only much later (#50) does he give an enlightening reply.

[thaskalos]

Poppycock. Comfort levels are for real and pervade all athletes until they can break through them. They are not excuses, they are facts.Bull...

A guy puts down $400,000 to open a fast food place, without being sure that he will be successful...and here we have a "winning" horseplayer, with a monster ROI, and YEARS of successful play under his belt...and he refuses to make a decent sized bet.

Makes sense I guess...

[Greyfox]

Bull...

A guy puts down $400,000 to open a fast food place, without being sure that he will be successful...and here we have a "winning" horseplayer, with a monster ROI, and YEARS of successful play under his belt...and he refuses to make a decent sized bet.

Makes sense I guess...

Makes sense to you, I guess. Google Yerkes-Dodson and maybe you'll understand that the man's performance will likely decline if he moves too far beyond the comfort zone he is in.

[raybo]

Bull...

A guy puts down $400,000 to open a fast food place, without being sure that he will be successful...and here we have a "winning" horseplayer, with a monster ROI, and YEARS of successful play under his belt...and he refuses to make a decent sized bet.

Makes sense I guess...

I understand what you're saying, but, the players who have the monster ROI, got there by setting goals, limitations, and knowing what is prudent and what is not. They aren't about to abandon discipline in the midst of success.

Confidence, in their ability, is not the issue, common sense is.

[GaryG]

This is the amount you can bet without reaching for the digitalis or throwing up waiting for the race to start. I can only speak for myself, but if you increase the size of your bets slowly, while you are gaining confidence, you will be eventually betting enough to make some real money. I am talking about a serious player who considers his horse wagering to be investing in his future. Don't feel bad if you do not have the nerves for it, most people don't. Just enjoy the game however you can....while it is still here.

[thaskalos]

Makes sense to you, I guess. Google Yerkes-Dodson and maybe you'll understand that the man's performance will likely decline if he moves too far beyond the comfort zone he is in.Yes...I agree!

I guess that's why the better poker players can all be found at the $1-$2 tables...they don't want their performance to decline once they move up in stakes...

[Dave Schwartz]

Yerkes-Dodson is an interesting read on Wikipedia. Thank you for that link.

Thaskalos, perhaps you have never experienced this but I can tell you that I have. And not just in wagering.

Anthony Robbins speaks of it in the sense that men try to be successful, succeed, then question just how much success they really deserve or can handle.

I assure you it is real.

I will not bore you with them now, but I actually have several real life experiences with winning players I have known who sabotaged themselves because they were not comfortable with how winning at the races would change their lives.


Dave

[thaskalos]

Yerkes-Dodson is an interesting read on Wikipedia. Thank you for that link.

Thaskalos, perhaps you have never experienced this but I can tell you that I have. And not just in wagering.

Anthony Robbins speaks of it in the sense that men try to be successful, succeed, then question just how much success they really deserve or can handle.

I assure you it is real.

I will not bore you with them now, but I actually have several real life experiences with winning players I have known who sabotaged themselves because they were not comfortable with how winning at the races would change their lives.


DaveI understand what you mean Dave, but these "self-sabotage" issues often involve deeper psychological factors...and that's not what I am talking about.

I also know that the "comfort levels" are REAL...but should they apply at the $20-$30 a race level...especially among people who profess to be experienced, winning players...with outrageous ROI, and YEARS of profitable play under their belt?

There is a big difference between discipline and timidity...and I maintain that we need a certain amount of courage in order to properly play this game.

[Saratoga_Mike]

This poll is a joke with 8 out of 98 voters now claiming they make over $100k/yr on racing. I don't believe that for a minute. Why do people feel the need to lie? I guess just to skew the poll, rendering it useless.

[thaskalos]

This poll is a joke with 8 out of 98 voters now claiming they make over $100k/yr on racing. I don't believe that for a minute. Why do people feel the need to lie? I guess just to skew the poll, rendering it useless.33 winners...29 losers...and 36 about even.

I wonder how these poll results compare to the national averages...

[Saratoga_Mike]

33 winners...29 losers...and 36 about even.

I wonder how these poll results compare to the national averages...

My guess on the national avg's (using a sample size of 98):

1 winner

85 losers

12 about even

I'm in the losing category - it's a hobby for me.

[Dave Schwartz]

I understand what you mean Dave, but these "self-sabotage" issues often involve deeper psychological factors...and that's not what I am talking about.

Well, it is precisely what I am talking about.

Any type of serious performance-based business can create a real head-trip. I am just being honest here when I say that I have struggled with it. And I do not believe I am alone.


One thing that truly changed my life was the addition of two friends/mentors. They came into my life at about the same time. Both with 7-figure annual incomes. One of those with a 7-figure income from betting on horses. It really helped raise the bar in my life.


Dave

[Mike_412]

Well, it is precisely what I am talking about.

Any type of serious performance-based business can create a real head-trip. I am just being honest here when I say that I have struggled with it. And I do not believe I am alone.


One thing that truly changed my life was the addition of two friends/mentors. They came into my life at about the same time. Both with 7-figure annual incomes. One of those with a 7-figure income from betting on horses. It really helped raise the bar in my life.


Dave

Dave,

I know you're a busy man at the moment, but whenever you have a chance to share some stories, I personally would love to hear them. For someone like me (I'm 31) I think they'd be a fantastic peek at what a "winning mentality" truly entails. For me personally, the mental aspect of this game can be a killer.

[Dave Schwartz]

That's a wonderful idea. New website coming with a blog.

Stay tuned.

[therussmeister]

33 winners...29 losers...and 36 about even.

I wonder how these poll results compare to the national averages...

I can't think of a good reason why the people that post here should be considered representative of the general horse playing public. The people here even seem to be starkly different than the people that post on TVG.

[Dave Schwartz]

They post on TVG?

[baconswitchfarm]

I just thought I would add my two cents. I am a full time player and over 100k every year but only with rebates. If they told me there would be no more rebates in racing I would move on. I lost about 400k last year and got back about 550k. I work 60 plus hours a week and feel like I work hard. I could probably tighten up my play and not lose as much, but then it would greatly effect my volume.

What I really don't understand is the anger on here about a poll. This is a place where many pros come as it relates to their business. It is not going to have results like asking the general public. Go do a poll at the grocery store about how many people are sharpshooters. Now go visit 82nd airborne and poll them. Your sample is skewed from the start and is never going to represent the general publics numbers.
One more thing . I would love to know other guys opinion on this subject. I find it somewhat disrespectful the treatment I get in general from part time horse players. This is the only job in the world where everybody thinks they are your equal. Example, I watch yankee workshop and shows like that . I fancy myself pretty handy but might only do a project every six months. I don't scream at the tv that that guy couldn't build a roll top desk because I can't . He has 30 years of working full time at his career. Why does a guy who brings in his paycheck on a Friday night and buys a program think he should play at my level. I have every edge in the world and it is stiil very tough. The people that work the hardest and commit the most time do well. Welcome to life.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Well, it is precisely what I am talking about.

Any type of serious performance-based business can create a real head-trip. I am just being honest here when I say that I have struggled with it. And I do not believe I am alone.


One thing that truly changed my life was the addition of two friends/mentors. They came into my life at about the same time. Both with 7-figure annual incomes. One of those with a 7-figure income from betting on horses. It really helped raise the bar in my life.


Dave

Wow.Just being within the vicinity of someone with that magnitude of positive expectations,that needs to be more prevalent in the horseplaying world.That's what I liked about this site when I found it,the bar is naturally raised because nearly everyone takes this seriously.Raise that bar,everybody!Good stuff .

[thaskalos]

One more thing . I would love to know other guys opinion on this subject. I find it somewhat disrespectful the treatment I get in general from part time horse players. This is the only job in the world where everybody thinks they are your equal. Example, I watch yankee workshop and shows like that . I fancy myself pretty handy but might only do a project every six months. I don't scream at the tv that that guy couldn't build a roll top desk because I can't . He has 30 years of working full time at his career. Why does a guy who brings in his paycheck on a Friday night and buys a program think he should play at my level. I have every edge in the world and it is stiil very tough. The people that work the hardest and commit the most time do well. Welcome to life.
If the professional horseplayers literally stood out of the crowd, then maybe they would get some respect and recognition from the losing players...but they don't stick out, so they get none.

The nature of their business - and the amounts of money they bet - demand solitude, and a reluctance to drawing undo attention to themselves.

As Tom Ainslie once wrote:

"Winning horseplaying is a solitary activity; the more social it gets, the less successful it becomes."

If the professional horseplayer wants a medal, he will have to go buy one. :)

[bigmack]

Why does a guy who brings in his paycheck on a Friday night and buys a program think he should play at my level. I have every edge in the world and it is stiil very tough. The people that work the hardest and commit the most time do well. Welcome to life.
Spiffy post. :ThmbUp:

It's beyond me how some can play the game and have the mindset of it being an impossible game to generate consistent gains. The amount of work involved to do so would break most in two.

Dream big and work your ass off. Turns out dreams come true.

Weird how that happens.

[Zippy Chippy]

Im going to post a dumb question

what are rebates??? is that where you get a card and you get a % of your wager back? if yes, is there a cash option? Fill me in please. ty

[baconswitchfarm]

You have 500 post on here and you don't know what rebates are ?

[Zippy Chippy]

You have 500 post on here and you don't know what rebates are ?

Sucks when you feel like you can't ask a question. .Someone could ask me how many furlongs a mile is and id be happy to tell them.

I do not know what rebates are. I know at the trac i go to some people use a card to get books and stuff. So the answer is no i dont know what rebates are.

This is the first time ive ever ventured into the Handicapping forum. Im more of a fan than a bettor

[Dave Schwartz]

what are rebates??? is that where you get a card and you get a % of your wager back? if yes, is there a cash option? Fill me in please. ty

Yes.

[baconswitchfarm]

Sorry , I didn't mean to be rude. If you search I am pretty sure rebates are the most covered topic on any horse betting chat. But it is exactly what you thought and you can get cash back depending on your level of play.

[bigmack]

Sucks when you feel like you can't ask a question. .
But yet it's dynamite we live in an age where you can search anything that pops in your head, online.

Pick a search engine & put relevant words together. ie. Horse & rebates. You can learn a whole pile of things that way.

With all due respect, it's like being on a golf course with you in the foursome and you asking someone what that thing is they're hitting the ball with.

People around here expect some level of knowledge. You're capable of finding things out all by yourself without having to look silly.

[Zippy Chippy]

But yet it's dynamite we live in an age where you can search anything that pops in your head, online.

Pick a search engine & put relevant words together. ie. Horse & rebates. You can learn a whole pile of things that way.

With all due respect, it's like being on a golf course with you in the foursome and you asking someone what that thing is they're hitting the ball with.

People around here expect some level of knowledge. You're capable of finding things out all by yourself without having to look silly.

I've been on here for 2 years I've never seen the word rebate. I am mostly in Derby talk/zenyatta talk. I understand a search engine but like to hear from horse players. I have no idea why u have to be rude. Rebates to horse racing don't compare to a golf club and golf. Save the sarcasm. All I see is rudeness to other people in your posts.also my main track is raynham. I'd almost bet they don't have rebates

[Greyfox]

I just thought I would add my two cents. I am a full time player and over 100k every year but only with rebates. If they told me there would be no more rebates in racing I would move on. I lost about 400k last year and got back about 550k. I work 60 plus hours a week and feel like I work hard. I could probably tighten up my play and not lose as much, but then it would greatly effect my volume.

.

With only a few posts, welcome aboard baconswitchfarm.
Hard work, is obviously part of the equation for your reported success.
For starters, do you have any tips on betting approaches?
I'm puzzled a bit by your math.
You bet 100K every year with rebates. You lost 400K last year. You got back about 550K.
Yes, I understand that a lot of bettors put a lot more through the tills than they realize. But getting back that much in rebates......
You are a better man than I am "Gunga Din."

[bigmack]

I've been on here for 2 years I've never seen the word rebate.
I have no idea why u have to be rude.
Odd. I did a search of the word rebate over the last year and it has been in hundreds of threads, let alone two years.

In any event, perhaps all would be better served if we swam with those of like minds. That way you can ask people who their favorite jockey or whatever is and I can rib people with them actually getting it. ;)

[m001001]

...

What I really don't understand is the anger on here about a poll. This is a place where many pros come as it relates to their business. It is not going to have results like asking the general public. Go do a poll at the grocery store about how many people are sharpshooters. Now go visit 82nd airborne and poll them. Your sample is skewed from the start and is never going to represent the general publics numbers.

...

:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

I have been reading the previous posts in amusement and kept quiet. Until I read your post then I decided to cast my vote.

Most people who made substantial amount consistently don't talk. Alan Woods was a rare exception. Most of them don't work alone either, nowadays it's more of a team effort and not a lonely job.

The psychological change from betting $10/race to $10k/race is smaller than most people think. The change is usually gradual, and you desensitize to the $ amount very soon.

[bigmack]

Alan Woods was a rare exception.
Alan Woods? He must be fictional. 'No way' anyone could make $100K/yr+
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43506

[baconswitchfarm]

Sorry my post was confusing.I bet around 5 million to net that. It sounds like alot but it is the same money bet over and over again. It just take alot of hours in the chair. Every day there is a great chance to make money. It might be at noon on the east coast or it might be at the last night track on the west coast. You just gotta be there the whole twelve hours to see when the value presents itself. If it was easy everybody would be doing it.

[Cubbymac26]

You have 500 post on here and you don't know what rebates are ?

Rude

[Cubbymac26]

Looks like baconfarm and bigmack are :1: & :1a: is the forum for being jerkoffs.....good going guys in making people that donate thousands a year maybe realize the game is to tough

[Cubbymac26]

And zippy to answer ur question in regards to rebates it's along the lines of rakeback on poker stars....they give u a percentage back or what u bet

Back when I lived in jersey we had the big m club they had different level of tiers...at my high point I was getting back 2.40 cents for every 100 I bet...some guys got as much as 4.60

Now what the other toolbox gets I really don't no

[JustRalph]

Sorry my post was confusing.I bet around 5 million to net that. It sounds like alot but it is the same money bet over and over again. It just take alot of hours in the chair. Every day there is a great chance to make money. It might be at noon on the east coast or it might be at the last night track on the west coast. You just gotta be there the whole twelve hours to see when the value presents itself. If it was easy everybody would be doing it.

and you are betting only on harness races ?

[SchagFactorToWin]

My question is, honestly. If you are very very good at handicapping and make 100k a year, why is there a limit on what you can make? Why couldn't you up every bet by 5x and make 500,000? Im guessing the bets aren't that high that it would effect the pools.

As others stated, it's all about the pool size. Last week, I did a small study because I wanted an answer to that very question. I calculated the payouts for my wins given different bet sizes from $2 to $1200, then graphed the results. It showed an increase in profits from $2-$200, then fairly flat from $200-$400, followed by a downturn in profits. The $1200 level produced significant losses because the average win fell so much.

[cj]

This poll gets more ridiculous by the hour. Apparently tracks don't have takeout, they have giveout.

[Dave Schwartz]

I was thinking about the current state of the graph this morning.

You know, it is actually possible that the graph is accurate.




Let's consider the graph.

http://www.horsestreet.com/BBSImages/PA_WinLossGraph.png

There are, as of right now, 18,877 members, of which 111 posted in the graph.

I do not think for a minute that the 111 are a cross-section of all members.

Beginning with "Win over $1k" there are 38 members who claim to be winners.

Add to that 1/2 of the 39 who are in the "win/lose less than $1k" category and you have 56 members who are better than break even.

If we accept the notion that 2% to 3% of the wagering public is profitable, that would be between 377 and 566 profitable members.

I do not believe that it likely that all winners posted, but I do believe that a high percentage of all winners did post but the 39 represent only 1/5 of 1% of all members. I do not believe it takes a statistical genius to figure out that the numbers are not out of range on the high side. If anything, they may well be out of range on the low side!

What bothers people most is the 11 members claiming to make $100,000 per year or more.

I began thinking about this from my personal knowledge of people on this board. When I began counting, I can tell you that I know of at least 7 members who fall into that category for sure, including two that I know did not vote in this poll.


My opinion is that this table probably underestimates the success of people on this board.


Just my opinion.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Dave Schwartz]

To carry this further, if anyone with the proper statistical tools and skill were interested...

I'd be interested in seeing a "normal distribution" of the winners, showing what percentage each category should likely produce. Then use the 2%/3% winners' estimate to give us a better answer.


Dave

[Greyfox]

To carry this further, if anyone with the proper statistical tools and skill were interested...

I'd be interested in seeing a "normal distribution" of the winners, showing what percentage each category should likely produce. Then use the 2%/3% winners' estimate to give us a better answer.


Dave

Not even using stats Dave, if 2 % to 3 % of the general public are profitable,
34 % of the respondents here are claiming to be profitable.
Using a simple Chi Square test, I think that you'd find the chances of that happening would be of very very low probability, but not impossible.
Then again, if true, the members at PA are an extremely outstanding bunch.
If not true, they are like most horse players and lie to themselves about how well they do.

[Dave Schwartz]

That assumes that the responders ARE a cross section of all members. I am suggesting that the responders are the more successful players.

That puts the winners are 1/5 of 1%.

Dave

[Greyfox]

I am suggesting that the responders are the more successful players.


Dave

That's a big assumption too. We don't know that.

[Learned Hand35]

To me, looks like we are close to getting a bell curve. I wonder if this should not be the expected distribution. PA is the best handicapping/horse player messageboard on the internet. If we assume only people that are truly interesting in the game as an area of deep study are the ones that post/lurk here are on a regular basis could we not expect the distribution would look more like your normal grade distribution in a college major or (non-grade inflated) graduate school program rather than the (horseplaying) populace as a whole?

edited because I realized that I was typing too fast.

[raybo]

Having started the poll, I will state that I expected some "dishonesty", especially in the early voting. I also expected that there would be several more voters in the >$50k and >$100k categories than most members here would think. There may be a small percentage of these 2 category's voters who were not honest, but I trust these 2 categories more than the other ones. The most likely categories to contain high percentage of dishonesty, IMO, are the Lose >1000k, Win or Lose >$1k, Win >$1k. The reason I suspect this? The Win or Lose <$1k cat is "fuzzy", for several reasons, the Lose >$1k, and, Win >$1k categories are the lowest categories, in both the win and lose realms, and offer the voter their first chance at singling themselves out of the mass of voters while not being that far from the actual truth. So, they are being only "slightly" dishonest, rather than "grossly" dishonest, which probably would be easier for people with a conscience to swallow.

I still believe that the longer the poll continues the closer it will come to reality, in the industry. However, there is no doubt in my mind that the members here at PA are not a true representation of players, industry wide. I believe, on average, membership here contains an inordinately higher percentage of serious, highly technical, highly experienced players, than in the industry's "public".

Therefore, the end result will not exactly mirror the public as a whole. But we should get some idea of how the mid to higher echelon of players are doing.

[baconswitchfarm]

Personally I think the numbers could be close. I feel that there is a large window from say 30k to 100k. A guy who can make 30k a year on a consistent basis can step up to make 100k. That is why the poll is light in the 50k range. All those people can step up to the 100k level. I would love to see a 250k range added. I think it would be a giant drop off from the 100k level. I know four other guys who make over 100k , but I don't think anyone of them has ever been over 250k. It is a giant leap with current pool sizes to pull it off on a consistent basis. I know there are guys doing it but I would think that level its a fraction of one percent.

[Learned Hand35]

Having started the poll, I will state that I expected some "dishonesty", especially in the early voting.

I still don't understand why one would expect dishonesty in the poll. It is an anonymous poll unless a voter outs themself in the the thread, correct?

What is the benefit to dishonesty in voting beyond reinforcing self-delusion?

[jballscalls]

I still don't understand why one would expect dishonesty in the poll. It is an anonymous poll unless a voter outs themself in the the thread, correct?

What is the benefit to dishonesty in voting beyond reinforcing self-delusion?

Exactly!! betting is alot about Ego

[thaskalos]

I still don't understand why one would expect dishonesty in the poll. It is an anonymous poll unless a voter outs themself in the the thread, correct?

What is the benefit to dishonesty in voting beyond reinforcing self-delusion?We horseplayers often use very peculiar book keeping systems.

I know several horseplayers who have gone from being owners of successful businesses and living in luxurious homes...to being completely broke and living in their cars - all as a result of their equine investments - and they all claim to be about even playing this game.

One even says that he is slightly ahead...

[Dave Schwartz]

Thaskalos,
:lol:

Very true.

[raybo]

I still don't understand why one would expect dishonesty in the poll. It is an anonymous poll unless a voter outs themself in the the thread, correct?

What is the benefit to dishonesty in voting beyond reinforcing self-delusion?

I've already stated that. We all know that there are more than a few here who would do such things, but as I stated, they are accomplishing the opposite, really, plus they make the poll far less accurate than it could be.

[raybo]

We horseplayers often use very peculiar book keeping systems.

I know several horseplayers who have gone from being owners of successful businesses and living in luxurious homes...to being completely broke and living in their cars - all as a result of their equine investments - and they all claim to be about even playing this game.

One even says that he is slightly ahead...

I agree, I treat horse racing totally as a business, but it is a far cry from most businesses one might prosper in. I liken it to the stock market, which most know can be a tough nut to crack, also.

[raybo]

Personally I think the numbers could be close. I feel that there is a large window from say 30k to 100k. A guy who can make 30k a year on a consistent basis can step up to make 100k. That is why the poll is light in the 50k range. All those people can step up to the 100k level. I would love to see a 250k range added. I think it would be a giant drop off from the 100k level. I know four other guys who make over 100k , but I don't think anyone of them has ever been over 250k. It is a giant leap with current pool sizes to pull it off on a consistent basis. I know there are guys doing it but I would think that level its a fraction of one percent.

I agree, I personally could do this myself, being a superfecta player strictly. I could buy $3 supers instead of $1 or $2, and accomplish it, but if I double or triple my tickets, I would be adding another winning ticket or 2 to the split of the pool. So, I would have the effect of lowering the odds in the win pool by making large wagers.

I like where I'm at right now, and really don't want to have the added hastle of having more "signers" at the end of the year.

I guess I'm in my "comfort zone". I'm still working, at 62, and will start drawing early SSAN this summer, so I'm pretty comfortable, financially. Never have really felt too much motivation to get rich, anyway. At this time in my life, I'm pretty content, and there's a lot to say for that. I've made good money before, and, it ain't all it's cracked up to be. Never knew how much better I'd feel after the bankruptcy, back in the mid 90's, but that was a huge weight off my shoulders, lot less stress knowing that I didn't have to make all that money to enjoy life.

[bigmack]

I like where I'm at right now, and really don't want to have the added hastle of having more "signers" at the end of the year.
Forgive me for not knowing and I don't have the time to look but what level are you at now, Ray? $25K up/yr.

(Thanks again for your help with my Excel dilemma a while back)

[raybo]

Forgive me for not knowing and I don't have the time to look but what level are you at now, Ray? $25K up/yr.

(Thanks again for your help with my Excel dilemma a while back)

That's not far off. I've never posted my earnings, just my ROI, and would prefer not to.

You're more than welcome for any help I might have given you, although I can't remember what the issue was. I guess I deleted your PM.

[Zippy Chippy]

Odd. I did a search of the word rebate over the last year and it has been in hundreds of threads, let alone two years.

In any event, perhaps all would be better served if we swam with those of like minds. That way you can ask people who their favorite jockey or whatever is and I can rib people with them actually getting it. ;)

How many of those posts have been in General Horse racing and Sports ? only forums ive been in

[Greyfox]

How many of those posts have been in General Horse racing and Sports ? only forums ive been in

Huh? At the top of each PA forum post is a button called "Search."
Punch "Search," type in a key word and you can answer your own question.
Thinking is allowed in this forum too.

[Zippy Chippy]

Huh? At the top of each PA forum post is a button called "Search."
Punch "Search," type in a key word and you can answer your own question.
Thinking is allowed in this forum too.

Read background before you mark smartass posts.. I was referring to him saying that there has been 200 posts on "rebates" and i was asking how many of them were in general forums. Paying attention is allowed in forums too dummy..

[Cubbymac26]

Now the real stupidity is starting to show in this thread.....

Why are people on here taking shots at zippy for asking questions relating to learning things about the game or the forum itself

They guy admits he goes for his balls week in and week out betting as do I and I see the hotshot bs artists who make 100g a year busting balls...

Now this could be a dead giveaway on how these guys don't win that much...if u win that much zippy is adding dead money to all the pools as well as me and the other fish out here...why make ur competition feel stupid

When your playing cards and fish sit down do the good players or sharks bust the balls of the fish?? No they don't some of u guys really don't have a clue

[dylbert]

One of the more entertaining threads ever! Unscientific poll is completely unscientific. Folks are posting their "feelings". Thoroughbred racing & its associated betting are my avocation. My chosen vocation has much, much higher ROI. I can enjoy this as hobby. Doubt I could fully appreciate horse racing, if it was my J-O-B.

And, if I spelled anything wrong, or used improper grammar, no worries, someone will come along and point them out and call me name, too. :lol:

[Dave Schwartz]

Why, why, why you... Dylbert, you.

[Cubbymac26]

Thread of the year.....!!!!!!! Now the $36000 question is if zenyatta won the classic would this thread be here rite now :lol:

That race created more threads then u can shake a stick at

[dylbert]

Why, why, why you... Dylbert, you.My point is self-selected poll seldom provides answer that you truly seek. See local newspaper or TV poll about news topic of the day. Usually gibberish.

Plus, do you think a bunch of degenerate horseplayers will actually tell the truth? (my tongue is firmly in my cheek) Great concept as we have all seen supposed scientific polls that tab winners at about 2% and losers at about 98%. However, many of us hobbiests (if that is correct spelling) probably do toggle around plus or minus $1,000 level.

[Dave Schwartz]

Dylbert, believe me, I got it.

[PaceAdvantage]

This poll is a joke with 8 out of 98 voters now claiming they make over $100k/yr on racing. I don't believe that for a minute. Why do people feel the need to lie? I guess just to skew the poll, rendering it useless.$100,000 a year is nothing when it comes to what the big winners take down in this game. I could easily believe there are eight people on here that make $100,000 or more wagering on horse racing.

Why is this a joke?

[Greyfox]

Read background before you mark smartass posts.. I was referring to him saying that there has been 200 posts on "rebates" and i was asking how many of them were in general forums. Paying attention is allowed in forums too dummy..

You couldn't count them yourself eh?

[precocity]

$100,000 a year is nothing when it comes to what the big winners take down in this game. I could easily believe there are eight people on here that make $100,000 or more wagering on horse racing.

Why is this a joke?

lol new a big time trainer that used to train mainly at lone star park hell he had vouchers on him more than a 100 geez...

[Saratoga_Mike]

$100,000 a year is nothing when it comes to what the big winners take down in this game. I could easily believe there are eight people on here that make $100,000 or more wagering on horse racing.

Why is this a joke?

We now have 12 out of 137 claiming to make over $100k/yr. Why is that a joke? Because I don't believe it for a minute. Given your general level of skepticism, which is way off the charts, I'm surprised you aren't questioning the numbers, too. We also have 36 out of 137 making $5k or more per yr. Geeh with these stats, we have the winning players needed to attract new players to the game. The lower-takeout extremists always claim the game doesn't attract new players because we have so very few winners. Well that sure isn't true here. I've heard Steve Crist speak to this issue, i.e., how many players truly make money betting on horses, and these results certainly contradict his thoughts. Maybe this site is just full of Keilloreque players, where everyone is above average.

[trackrat59]

I'm willing to start holding the bets for the 3 people that lost over $100,000 a year.

[FenceBored]

I'm willing to start holding the bets for the 3 people that lost over $100,000 a year.

Sorry, job's taken.

[PaceAdvantage]

We now have 12 out of 137 claiming to make over $100k/yr. Why is that a joke? Because I don't believe it for a minute. Given your general level of skepticism, which is way off the charts, I'm surprised you aren't questioning the numbers, too. We also have 36 out of 137 making $5k or more per yr. Geeh with these stats, we have the winning players needed to attract new players to the game. The lower-takeout extremists always claim the game doesn't attract new players because we have so very few winners. Well that sure isn't true here. I've heard Steve Crist speak to this issue, i.e., how many players truly make money betting on horses, and these results certainly contradict his thoughts. Maybe this site is just full of Keilloreque players, where everyone is above average.You honestly think a site like this represents the horse playing community as a whole? You don't think for a moment that this site might just be a little top heavy with winning players compared to the general horse playing population?

There are guys out there clearing SEVEN FIGURES after rebates...why don't you think there wouldn't be a bunch of guys making a measly six figures?

I'm not saying I have full faith in the honesty of this particular poll, but no, it would not surprise me in the least if this board, which has been around over 11 years, has more than a few players making $100,000 or more per year.

[Beachbabe]

Interesting !
We now have 44 people who say they lose at least 1,000 a year and 44 who say they win at least a 1,000 a year.
Time to close the poll (once the 3 who lose over 100k a year come off the window ledge).

[bigmack]

I'm not saying I have full faith in the honesty of this particular poll, but no, it would not surprise me in the least if this board, which has been around over 11 years, has more than a few players making $100,000 or more per year.
I find those convulsing into kanipchens of disbelief that anyone could reel in more than $100K, a goofy commentary on how they view the possibilities of this game in 2010.

I figered folk new that the skye is the limets for any1 in anythinge. Noing how to spell dont mean nothing iether.

[thaskalos]

You honestly think a site like this represents the horse playing community as a whole? You don't think for a moment that this site might just be a little top heavy with winning players compared to the general horse playing population?

There are guys out there clearing SEVEN FIGURES after rebates...why don't you think there wouldn't be a bunch of guys making a measly six figures?

I'm not saying I have full faith in the honesty of this particular poll, but no, it would not surprise me in the least if this board, which has been around over 11 years, has more than a few players making $100,000 or more per year.The 12 people claiming six-digit annual profits is not the unbelievable stat in the poll, IMO.

45 winners, 44 losers and 50 about even...in a game where only 2% of the players are believed to be winners in the long run? It just doesn't sound right...

And I didn't even vote yet, because I don't want to throw the figures even more out of kilter. :)

[raybo]

Only a small fraction of our members have voted. Guess which group would be less likely to vote? Yup, the ones below break-even.

Those who profit from the game will vote on ego alone, even if it's an anonymous vote.

But, I certainly can understand why many find it hard to believe that so many have voted at >$100k. The 2%-98% figure has been drilled into their heads for so long, they think that ratio should be reflected here too. No way.

But if the losing players here would go ahead and vote things would start looking more realistic, aside from the >$100k category, that's always going to look a little funny, but, not necessarily in error.

[Robert Fischer]

The 12 people claiming six-digit annual profits is not the unbelievable stat in the poll, IMO.

45 winners, 44 losers and 50 about even...in a game where only 2% of the players are believed to be winners in the long run? It just doesn't sound right...

you don't know what you're talking about.

the typical message boarding horseplayer:


+ROI(flat,w/rebate,or not this year but over the last Xyears, or before expenses...)
wagers enough for rebates
regularly plays(and hits) boxcar exotics and long-shots
doesn't experience long losing streaks
Typically misinterprets fundamental aspects of races when discussing them...
...yet has devised proprietary metrics
has several spot plays that "buck" mathematical behavior
wagers on a large number of races, wagers on(or randomly opposes) fan-favorites

[Robert Fischer]

Only a small fraction of our members have voted. Guess which group would be less likely to vote? Yup, the ones below break-even.

He has much to learn about the science of polling(which I also happen to be an expert in).

[Dave Schwartz]

It seems this thread has exposed a high degree of cynicism in our community.

[Mike A]

I've been biting my tongue here for a while....and no, I'm not going to bother giving this the full treatment. I'm just going to allow myself a slight venting.

I kind of feel bad for the extreme cynics. I feel that at the root of the cynicism, is lack of understanding of so many of the dynamics involved.

I'm not sure how many of the biggest winners here have actually voted, but what would surprise ME is if there were actually only ~12 players on this board who make more than 100k per annum. I'm pretty sure it's more than that...and probably at least a few who make over 300k.

The purpose of this little post is meant to be a positive one. Come on, guys...
if what you are doing isn't working....for God's sake stay determined, and at least try something else.

[kid4rilla]

I'm cynical, but not extremely. I think they're out there, those who make the big dollars playing this game, but I still don't know any of them. Those making the big dollars are still legend and myth to me, only spoken of by purveyors of product.

Wonder where Enigma voted in this poll, or DaHoss.


If I ever figure it out how to do it, I'm not telling either. :)

[Saratoga_Mike]

I've been biting my tongue here for a while....and no, I'm not going to bother giving this the full treatment. I'm just going to allow myself a slight venting.

I kind of feel bad for the extreme cynics. I feel that at the root of the cynicism, is lack of understanding of so many of the dynamics involved.

I'm not sure how many of the biggest winners here have actually voted, but what would surprise ME is if there were actually only ~12 players on this board who make more than 100k per annum. I'm pretty sure it's more than that...and probably at least a few who make over 300k.

The purpose of this little post is meant to be a positive one. Come on, guys...
if what you are doing isn't working....for God's sake stay determined, and at least try something else.

Given the size of the TOTAL membership here, which I believe is well into the thousands (Pace?), I can understand why you might be surprised by only 12 people making $100k or more. One small problem: thousands haven't voted. At one point last night, 12 out of 136 were making the $100k or more claim. That's the stat I don't believe.

[Saratoga_Mike]

You honestly think a site like this represents the horse playing community as a whole? You don't think for a moment that this site might just be a little top heavy with winning players compared to the general horse playing population?There are guys out there clearing SEVEN FIGURES after rebates...why don't you think there wouldn't be a bunch of guys making a measly six figures?

I'm not saying I have full faith in the honesty of this particular poll, but no, it would not surprise me in the least if this board, which has been around over 11 years, has more than a few players making $100,000 or more per year.

For the most part, I think this site is fairly representative of the horse playing community (excluding the $2 players who use off-track betting parlors as social gathering places). Passion and interest may run higher here, but I don't think those two factors necessarily determine success.

How many guys in the country do you believe are clearing seven figures with rebates? My guess is that number is 5 to 10 at most, and I suspect maybe one or two post here (the gentleman who used to play in NY and then moved to Vegas when the takeout went up being one of them**). Again, these are guesses, so if you have better intell, please correct me. If 12 out 750 had claimed to be making $100k or more, the poll would be more plausible, imo.

**Ernie Dahlman is his name, I believe. I wish he'd chime in on this issue.

[bigmack]

**Ernie Dahlman is his name, I believe. I wish he'd chime in on this issue.
What would you like for him to chime?

[Saratoga_Mike]

What would you like for him to chime?

I was using the intransitive verb "chime in," as in "join the discussion." Why? Because I think he's got better perspective than most.

[Dave Schwartz]

I'm cynical, but not extremely. I think they're out there, those who make the big dollars playing this game, but I still don't know any of them. Those making the big dollars are still legend and myth to me, only spoken of by purveyors of product.

There are two that I know of on this board that have made more than $1m in a single year for multiple years. I doubt if either of them voted.

You know them as posters but do not know that they make that much. Neither are clients of mine.


Dave

[raybo]

He has much to learn about the science of polling(which I also happen to be an expert in).

Well, please Mr. Expert, dazzle us with your expertness in polling. Oh, don't forget where you are. This isn't a forum for dummies, as you will find out rather quickly, if you can't prove you're the expert you claim.

The poll does not require anyone to disclose how much they make, or who they are, or their secrets.

Using common sense will lead you to know that winning players are more likely to vote than losing players, especially on this forum.

[MPRanger]

Better to lose on paper than at the windows.
--------------------------------------------

But better to win at the windows than to win on paper.

[Dave Schwartz]

Well, please Mr. Expert, dazzle us with your expertness in polling.

Raybo,

I think he was kidding. (But I could be wrong.)


Dave

[speculus]

[QUOTE=Dave Schwartz]
......If we accept the notion that 2% to 3% of the wagering public is profitable, that would be between 377 and 566 profitable members.... [QUOTE]

Dave, I had many years ago read a credible article online (don't remember the source now) which presented data collected over several years (I think 8 years) that showed only 1 in 1200 players was a consistent winner, that's less than 0.1% (0.08%).

The consistent winner was defined as someone who showed profit for five straight years.

I have a feeling this figure could be more close to truth than the 1 or 2 % which majority believes.

P.S. Strangely, in an imperfect experiment I carried out (of course, over too short a sample to claim any value for the finding), the figure was 1 out of 1450.

[Dave Schwartz]

Spec,

Could you describe how your experiment worked?

Dave

[speculus]

Spec,

Could you describe how your experiment worked?

Dave

In 2004, I was invited to join the Tote committee of the Royal Western India Turf Club (RWITC (http://www.rwitc.com/)) and that gave me unlimited access to data (including archived data) of nearly 5,800 regular gamblers (people who almost bet daily on their races). As a novel experiment, the club had also introduced special cards (like credit/debit cards) using which the members could bet (the practice was later discontinued).

I remember having examined data of over 3-1/2 years, and had found that there were only 4 (four) gamblers who had shown profit.

[bettheoverlay]

Is it reasonable to assume that for those making 100K+ a year, all of their profit is coming from rebates?

[thaskalos]

Is it reasonable to assume that for those making 100K+ a year, all of their profit is coming from rebates?
Wouldn't that mean that none of this game's best players are able to beat the game "straight up"?

[sjk]

Wouldn't that mean that none of this game's best players are able to beat the game "straight up"?

If it is true it would merely point out that if you are out to maximize your profit dollars you would be likely to reduce your ROI. What you are able to do may not be material to the strategy you choose to follow.

[Dave Schwartz]

Among some very large rebate operations, the belief is that if you are breaking even, you are not betting enough money. Bet more, and make it back on the rebate.

[lamboguy]

Among some very large rebate operations, the belief is that if you are breaking even, you are not betting enough money. Bet more, and make it back on the rebate.the law of diminishing return's definately show's up the the parimutuel wagering game.

since this is true and racing hasn't been able to re-plentish its customer base, the "old" customer's have cut back the amount's of their wagering activities.

i have been betting alot of canadien b-track harness wagering lately, and i never bet more than $10.00 in the W PS pools. there are plenty of win pools with less than $1200 in it. a $20 bill would drop a horse win odds from 10-1 down to 6-1.

the most important rule i have now is to never overbet the pools no matter how good my rebate is. when the wagering company complain's that you are not giving them enough action, i tell them to find more customer"s

[Track Collector]

the most important rule i have now is to never overbet the pools no matter how good my rebate is. There is a sweet spot, or unit size that will maximize the amount of money one can make. It is a balance between the rebate you make and the amount of pool dilution caused by one's wager. Theoretically it is easy to calculate. In practice, it is much more at risk as the calculations assume that one's ROI is constant and repeatable, and they are often not. when the wagering company complain's that you are not giving them enough action, i tell them to find more customer"s With so many different options available, tell them you are going elsewhere. It is now a CONSUMER'S market.

.

[thaskalos]

i have been betting alot of canadien b-track harness wagering lately, and i never bet more than $10.00 in the W PS pools. there are plenty of win pools with less than $1200 in it. a $20 bill would drop a horse win odds from 10-1 down to 6-1.

Is this really true?

I also play these Canadian harness b-tracks whenever I find myself at an OTB at night. I make $50-$100 win bets...and I'm always amazed to see the action my horses get - right after I bet them. :)

I never thought that the win pools were that low...

[Greybase]

BloodHorse.com reporting on the national HBPA convention in New Orleans 2 years ago, featured an interview with the guy who runs RGS, a high volume so-called "rebate shop". He stated that 80 individuals per day were betting a total $445 million (RGS minimum account is $1 Million per year).

If 80 guys are wagering this much and getting 10% plus rebate it's certainly no stretch to think there's a half dozen such guys on this Forum, who basically break even and then profit > 100K on rebates alone.

Bloodhorse.com - Jury Out on Rebates Computer Bets (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/43354/jury-out-on-rebates-computer-bets)

"Brooks said RGS in 2007 handled $445.2 million and paid $19.8 million in host fees to racetracks. The company averaged 80 active customers per day last year, he said."

[Greybase]

Is this really true?

I never thought that the Win pools were that low...
Those harness tracks look like Churchill Downs compared to some of the greyhound tracks I play... There are simulcast dog tracks with less than $400 in the Win pool... All of the action is in exotics where they handle maybe $5000 each on Trifecta and Supers. Total daily handles of $60K weekdays :rolleyes:

[Greyfox]

I also play these Canadian harness b-tracks whenever I find myself at an OTB at night. I make $50-$100 win bets...and I'm always amazed to see the action my horses get - right after I bet them. :)

I never thought that the win pools were that low...

Right. A $100 bet at some of those b harness tracks and you are the action.
A teller was telling me that each night some guy was coming in and laying down a couple of hundred dollars on a Northern Harness track races . He complained to the teller that "How come I go to play it and the horse is double digits? Then when I play it it's close to being the favorite?"
Finally one evening the teller told him "You are the pool."

[jefftune]

Still hard to believe that 13 respondents here make over $100,000 a year betting the horses. For me it's almost always win or lose <$1,000 - I don't bet that much although I visit the track at least a couple times a week. For 2010 I will win >$1,000. Good luck the rest of the year to all you horseplayers!

-Jeff Tune

[NJ Stinks]

i have been betting alot of canadien b-track harness wagering lately, and i never bet more than $10.00 in the W PS pools. there are plenty of win pools with less than $1200 in it. a $20 bill would drop a horse win odds from 10-1 down to 6-1.



One night in 1980's I was at Lewiston in Maine for the harness races. I hit a $2 exacta for something like $186. Later that night a guy who worked at the track told me two people hit that exacta and split the pool. :eek:

[Robert Goren]

what amazes me is that so few people make 25k or 50k. I guess pool shopping is easier than I thought. I would thought more one man operations would be playing only one or two pools there by limiting their profits. For the record I am such a small better that I would have to have a hella of year to be plus 5k.

[TEJAS KIDD]

My question is, honestly. If you are very very good at handicapping and make 100k a year, why is there a limit on what you can make? Why couldn't you up every bet by 5x and make 500,000? Im guessing the bets aren't that high that it would effect the pools.


Zippy,

I tried that. It didnt work. Went from 1,000,000 to over 4,000,000 in handle one year. Worst year I ever had from an ROI standpoint, if not for rebate, I wouldve had a terrible year. Since then, I've went back to my old way of playing.
The cause was playing too much money into smaller pools. Thought the rebate would overcome that, but it really wasnt the case. Word of advice for anyone just starting out playing with the rebate. Don't change the way you play by increasing the amounts you play when getting the rebate. You'll begin counting on the rebate and begin trying to make wagers just to breakeven.

[xciceroguy]

For me it's a hobby, if I bet too much I don't enjoy it. It's not worth worrying about the money. The fun in it to me is trying to make sense out of the DRF. If I win BIG in any given day it's never more than a couple hundred, and if I lose it's far less than that.:1a:

[FakeNameChanged]

Okay, for anyone who's dabbled in elem. statistics, the chart at top of page looks suspicious. It's almost like a classic bell curve, except for the abnormal number of players claiming to win over 100K. So I'm calling bullshido. For the record I picked lose over $1K, some years closer to 2 or 3K. Whosonfirst

[Robert Goren]

Okay, for anyone who's dabbled in elem. statistics, the chart at top of page looks suspicious. It's almost like a classic bell curve, except for the abnormal number of players claiming to win over 100K. So I'm calling bullshido. For the record I picked lose over $1K, some years closer to 2 or 3K. WhosonfirstThe sample is not random.

[raybo]

The sample is not random.

Correct, PA is not a random sample of your average player.

[thaskalos]

Perhaps a poll asking for frequency of play rather than level of success, would be more telling...and probably more honest. :)

[raybo]

Perhaps a poll asking for frequency of play rather than level of success, would be more telling...and probably more honest. :)

You might be right. I don't think the poll results are so much dishonest as they are unrepresentative of both groups, the losing players and the winning players. I think more winning players (per capita(?)) voted, compared to losing players. PA has thousands of members but only 190 actually voted.

[stavo]

how many of you guys would make a profit by lay betting on sites like betfair! if it was available to you in the usa i wonder?

[raybo]

how many of you guys would make a profit by lay betting on sites like betfair! if it was available to you in the usa i wonder?

Well, I'm not really informed on lay betting, but, I can definitely tell you which horses to bet against. The odds one can get, is another story.

[stavo]

thats interesting raybo i am listening! maybe we could do a test if you like today? we got betting available at tampa, beulah, fairgrounds, on betfair this evening, would you like to give it a go? i could check the results after at betfair prices to see if you did make a profit or not? i have found that the prices differ quite often! for example last night a fav on the usa sp started 10 minutes before the off at 4/5 ended up 2/1 but over here on betfair it went out to 11/1 before shortening back a bit to 10/1 at the off! the horse did not win but it shows quite a difference you would have to agree? anyway let me know if you would like to paticipate? on here or pm if you like? cheers

[trotter2229]

I would re-word this thread and talk about how much your entertainment value cost.

A buddy of mine has seasons ticket to the Arizona Cardinals, I think they cost $2,000 now that is a loss. Players make millions even if they don't perform.

My brother has a golf membership that costs almost $10K per year and he is a 22 handicap.

On and on it could go as to where our friends who patronize other sports lost supporting their teams.

I would rather bet on the horses anytime for the amount of time I get to play for my money and have months go by where I do not have to redeposit. The athletes and owners in our sport only get paid when they perform.

It is all perspective...it is not win or lose it is cost of your entertainment.

Lets enjoy our passion not apologize for it.

[Kelso]

I would re-word this thread and talk about how much your entertainment value cost.

<snip>

I would rather bet on the horses


If you couldn't place bets on the horses, would it still offer you much "entertainment value?"

[trotter2229]

If you couldn't place bets on the horses, would it still offer you much "entertainment value?"

The races would have to be closer together but I would for sure. The Game would have to change its presentation to the public like all other non-wagering sports but I would love it just the same.

We would probably appreciate it more because we could admire the skill of the driver, trainer and horses if we weren't losing a bet.

Let's face it what would be the viewer-ship of the NFL if it wasn't for rampant betting that takes place each week.

For entertainment you can't beat it - free admission - free parking - and a chance to win with your entertainment investment.

We encourage you to attend your local track, the worldwide web is for your non-home track wagering.

[Robert Goren]

Some, but not enough to brag about, but I will anyway.;)

[Kelso]

Let's face it what would be the viewer-ship of the NFL if it wasn't for rampant betting that takes place each week.

My guess is that it would be a hell of a lot more than those viewing non-parimutuel horse racing. Watching humans beat each other into the ground is simply much more entertaining than watching pretty horsies carry short guys around an oval.


We encourage you to attend your local track, the worldwide web is for your non-home track wagering.

Who, exactly, is this "we" of whom you type?

[trotter2229]

My guess is that it would be a hell of a lot more than those viewing non-parimutuel horse racing. Watching humans beat each other into the ground is simply much more entertaining than watching pretty horsies carry short guys around an oval.




Who, exactly, is this "we" of whom you type?

Thanks for your feedback and both of us can have different thoughts on the best sport to watch but either way it is great to talk about Horse Racing. The "we" is myself and my partners at www.iBETHARNESS.COM

I look forward to discussing further

Have a wonderful holiday season and a Happy Horsey New Year

[citygoat]

If you couldn't place bets on the horses, would it still offer you much "entertainment value?"

I derive entertainment by watching the loud mouth "experts" become whining crybabies in less than three minutes time.

[Richard]

I voted erroniously in the poll by marking the +$100k spot.I failed to read the "k" after the $100.Actually I won only $971.20.My apologies to all.
Richard