The collapse of the welfare state

[ArlJim78]

CBN report about Europe and France in particular (http://www.therightscoop.com/welfare-state-europes-economic-armageddon-coming-to-america).

Anything sound familiar in this story? everything that we are told by the progressives that we must do are the very things that if carried out will destroy (or have already destroyed) our economy. Combine big government, big labor, big spending on social programs, taxing businesses and the rich to pay for it, and it's a recipe for a soon to be failed state.

[boxcar]

CBN report about Europe and France in particular (http://www.therightscoop.com/welfare-state-europes-economic-armageddon-coming-to-america).

Anything sound familiar in this story? everything that we are told by the progressives that we must do are the very things that if carried out will destroy (or have already destroyed) our economy. Combine big government, big labor, big spending on social programs, taxing businesses and the rich to pay for it, and it's a recipe for a soon to be failed state.

Don't worry about it. It's all in BO's game plan for fundamentally transforming the face of America. He has everything in control.

Boxcar

[ArlJim78]

Don't worry about it. It's all in BO's game plan for fundamentally transforming the face of America. He has everything in control.

Boxcar
Yeah I know, a Vat tax and death panels should fix us right up.

[mostpost]

CBN. Now there's an organization that I'd trust to give an unbiased account. They did not interview a single economist who might have given a different (and more accurate) assessment of the problems. Blame everything on the welfare state. direct attention away from the failure of business and banks to do anything but increase their profits.

If the private sector is losing jobs and the public sector is gaining them, it is because the private sector is trying to lose jobs in order to maximize profits. If that is what they want to do, fine. But don't cry when no one has money to buy your products.

[newtothegame]

CBN report about Europe and France in particular (http://www.therightscoop.com/welfare-state-europes-economic-armageddon-coming-to-america).

Anything sound familiar in this story? everything that we are told by the progressives that we must do are the very things that if carried out will destroy (or have already destroyed) our economy. Combine big government, big labor, big spending on social programs, taxing businesses and the rich to pay for it, and it's a recipe for a soon to be failed state.

The one thing I never really understood is that "history always repeats itself". You would think that people would see what happens and learn from it. In this case, its not like countries have never tried this route before lol. Question is, how far do we as a coountry go before we realize that HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF lol.

[PaceAdvantage]

CBN. Now there's an organization that I'd trust to give an unbiased account. They did not interview a single economist who might have given a different (and more accurate) assessment of the problems. Blame everything on the welfare state. direct attention away from the failure of business and banks to do anything but increase their profits.

If the private sector is losing jobs and the public sector is gaining them, it is because the private sector is trying to lose jobs in order to maximize profits. If that is what they want to do, fine. But don't cry when no one has money to buy your products.It's too bad you and others like you weren't this critical of the negative stuff that was written during the Bush Admin's time in power. :lol:

But then again, according to hcap, it was nothing but positive stuff posted about Bush here during that time... :lol: :lol: ...yeah right... :lol: :bang:

[mostpost]

It's too bad you and others like you weren't this critical of the negative stuff that was written during the Bush Admin's time in power. :lol:

But then again, according to hcap, it was nothing but positive stuff posted about Bush here during that time... :lol: :lol: ...yeah right... :lol: :bang:
I wasn't here for most of the Bush years, so I can't comment on that.
i am not being critical of negative stuff. I am being critical of negative stuff posted without backup. Or posted using questionable sources and downright unfactual material. (Apparently there is no such word as unfactual)

You are wearing ideological blinders, if you can't see the right wing bias on this board.

[newtothegame]

I wasn't here for most of the Bush years, so I can't comment on that.
i am not being critical of negative stuff. I am being critical of negative stuff posted without backup. Or posted using questionable sources and downright unfactual material. (Apparently there is no such word as unfactual)

You are wearing ideological blinders, if you can't see the right wing bias on this board.

And you my friend just wear blinders lol

[boxcar]

CBN. Now there's an organization that I'd trust to give an unbiased account. They did not interview a single economist who might have given a different (and more accurate) assessment of the problems. Blame everything on the welfare state. direct attention away from the failure of business and banks to do anything but increase their profits.

At least businesses are being true to their primary purpose -- PROFITS. They are not in business for altruistic reasons. First and foremost it's all about making money. Now...what does Big Gov make again? Maybe you want to remind us? :rolleyes: However, I can tell you what Big Gov excels at: Making life as miserable as possible for those who generate wealth in a society -- for those who generate profits and earn money made possible by those profits. This the government does exceedingly well.

If the private sector is losing jobs and the public sector is gaining them, it is because the private sector is trying to lose jobs in order to maximize profits. If that is what they want to do, fine. But don't cry when no one has money to buy your products.

Yeah...a grand conspiracy is going on. All the businesses in the nation held a giant conference call and are conspiring to lose sales and sink the economy. (But I didn't hear them tell anyone they were out to fundamentally transform the face of America, did you? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ) You're truly a piece of work. It's a good thing you never had a real job in the private sector... :D

Boxcar

[mostpost]

And you my friend just wear blinders lol
Maybe bias was not the best word. What if I said that the majority of posters on this board subscribe to conservative ideals? What if I said that they try to prove their theories through the use of conservative blogs and articles? What if I said they ignore or refuse to acknowledge any information which disproves their beliefs? Would that make you happy? Wait a minute!!!! I think I just described bias. :eek:

[bigmack]

Or posted using questionable sources and downright unfactual material.
Your calculator may be running smooth but your Funk & Wagnalls' kittywampus.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/unfact.png

[newtothegame]

Maybe bias was not the best word. What if I said that the majority of posters on this board subscribe to conservative ideals? What if I said that they try to prove their theories through the use of conservative blogs and articles? What if I said they ignore or refuse to acknowledge any information which disproves their beliefs? Would that make you happy? Wait a minute!!!! I think I just described bias. :eek:

And the EXACT same things could be said for the left. It really comes down to ones beliefs...I have mine...and you have yours (not matter how distorted yours are!!! lol ) :lol: :lol:

[GaryG]

It was originally intended to be a stop-gap measure. A way to help someone who has come upon hard times. Eventually the recipient gets back on his feet and becomes, once again, a productive member of society.

It was not intended to be a way of life, carried on from generation to generation. Nor was it designed to support criminals who have illegally entered the country. In the country we still take care of one another. If a neighbor is out of work or has an urgent need he will find help, financial as well as emotional, from those in the community.

California will not cut welfare payments until the last light goes out in Sacramento.

[ArlJim78]

CBN. Now there's an organization that I'd trust to give an unbiased account. They did not interview a single economist who might have given a different (and more accurate) assessment of the problems. Blame everything on the welfare state. direct attention away from the failure of business and banks to do anything but increase their profits.

If the private sector is losing jobs and the public sector is gaining them, it is because the private sector is trying to lose jobs in order to maximize profits. If that is what they want to do, fine. But don't cry when no one has money to buy your products.
so your solution for businesses which are losing money is to hire more people so that those people will have the money to buy your products? :eek: Good luck with that one.

what bias, what inaccuracy did you find in that report? are you sure you could recognize an unbiased report? those people marching in the streets and burning cars were protesting the government, not a bank or business.
Businesses and banks didn't create the laws or make the promises to the people that the states have. If you think what is happening around the world is not a failure of welfare states, you're mistaken. It's the states with the big social programs which are in the most debt distress.

I know this is difficult for you, and a really foreign concept, but outside of government and certain university faculty lounges, people and businesses tend to view profits as a good thing. Businesses cannot survive without them, and people will seek out profitable companies when they look for work. Yes its true, people actually prefer to work for companies which are profitable. There are many more good things that can happen to you when working for a profitable company, as opposed to one that is bleeding red ink, hence there popularity with job seekers.

[prospector]

What if I said they ignore or refuse to acknowledge any information which disproves their beliefs? Would that make you happy? Wait a minute!!!! I think I just described bias. :eek:
What if i say there is no information that disproves conservative beliefs? :jump:

[boxcar]

so your solution for businesses which are losing money is to hire more people so that those people will have the money to buy your products? :eek: Good luck with that one.

Not such great, quick, enlightened minds think alike. Mosty reminds me of BO's "brilliant" idea because he wants to give tax credits to companies who will make loans to expand their businesses or perhaps to even meet a bigger payroll after they hire new people. Talk about a scatter-brained KNOW NOTHING! :bang: :bang: The problem in the private sector is not loans. The problem is that sales don't justify expansion or new hiring. Everything in the business world hinges on sales. So, what does BO talk about? Loans? :bang: :bang: :bang:

Boxcar

[slewis]

so your solution for businesses which are losing money is to hire more people so that those people will have the money to buy your products? :eek: Good luck with that one.

what bias, what inaccuracy did you find in that report? are you sure you could recognize an unbiased report? those people marching in the streets and burning cars were protesting the government, not a bank or business.
Businesses and banks didn't create the laws or make the promises to the people that the states have. If you think what is happening around the world is not a failure of welfare states, you're mistaken. It's the states with the big social programs which are in the most debt distress.



The inaccuracy is that you have no understanding of life in France and the mentality of the French citizen, nor is it yours or any other Americans business to disparage their way of life.
To set the record straight, the problems that plague the French are due to a downturn in the world economy, not their socio-economic system in general.
France is a democracy and they cant vote parties in power with various ideological beliefs. You (and others on PA) are making them out to be lazy socialists. So I will set the record straight for the usually mis-informed.

Go and check their Tax structure. Their citizens are taxed at a higher rate, much higher, than ours. But it's not only the wealthy. They have a very high (as does the UK) VAT tax. For people like you, this should be a "just be quiet, yankee" sign. You do understand that a VAT tax EQUALLY taxes all it's citizens on consumption at the same rate. A very right wing conservative principle. In return for the high tax structure, French citizens have an expectation of the social programs those tax structures were set up to fund.
The problem is (like with Health Care here) people are living longer and it (along with a weak world economy) is burdening that structure.
People like YOU (and this dumb article) try to spin that into some sought of proof of how socialist societies are doomed to fail, even when they are not true socialist societies.

To show how misguided your economics are, you make the statement about hiring when businesses are losing money. Well, of course you dont.
But you also, on another thread, defended Carly Fiorina in her outsourcing stating that it is necessary for businesses to compete today.
So I'll pose a similar question as above. If ALL corporations implement Carly's (and yours) mentality, who will be left to buy the products your company (and mine too) produce?

Without getting into a stone throw here, I'll ask you one question.

Do you think this country can EVER return to prosperity again without a resurgence of the middle class? If your answer is "yes", then your vision of what the US will become is a country where 98% of the people are working (at slave wages) for the other 2%. This is the socio-business model all the statistics are showing we are headed.
For those that back this, you'd better figure a way to dupe the 98% have-nots into voting for your cause. They still have voting power, ya know?

[Native Texan III]

The CNN report is total nonsense.

"Across the oceans we see enormous debt all over the world crushing economies; tearing at the already porous fabric of the socialistic welfare state. Citizens are violently protesting over having to work a few more years before retirement or having to pay more for college tuition because the government has run out of money. And now those countries whose workforces have dwindled so that they can’t pay those big welfare state IOUs are looking back at us wondering why in the name of all humanity we are going down the same path that led them over the cliff and into economic armageddon. "

The Government debts in Europe are due entirely to bailing out the failed banks. Ireland is a case in point where Government was in regular surplus until the private sector banks started collapsing along with the USA banks. Greece is an exception but France etc is not. Many countries outside of Europe and USA are in surplus. No European country has run out of money. France, Germany, UK , Ireland, Italy have Conservative Governments, not Socialist ones. The protests are 100% nothing to do with socialism.

The protests are that the everyday Joe and Jill is having to make sacrifices for something they did not cause and had no control of. Before the banking crisis there was no welfare benefits problem. When USA dares to tackle its equally huge debts then the same protests will be common place here plus the wackos with guns. If you think that kind Americans are going to rally around their distressed neighbors read Grapes of Wrath again.

[slewis]

At least businesses are being true to their primary purpose -- PROFITS. They are not in business for altruistic reasons. First and foremost it's all about making money. Now...what does Big Gov make again? Maybe you want to remind us? :rolleyes: However, I can tell you what Big Gov excels at: Making life as miserable as possible for those who generate wealth in a society -- for those who generate profits and earn money made possible by those profits. This the government does exceedingly well.



Boxcar, for once you are correct. The role of business is precisely that. To make profit. But you are misguided about the role of Govt.
One of the MAIN jobs of Govt is to REGULATE businesses. Not to keep them from making profit, but to protect them from damaging the good of society as a whole. To me that includes something like outsourcing.
People like you sometimes (maybe often) have trouble with that distinction.
Take the tobacco industry. Do you feel Govt overstepped it's boundaries in exposing the industry to the dangers it so adamantly denied exist?

Or maybe the Govt should turn the other cheek when GE dumped tons of PCP waste in the Hudson river?

I know you feel Govt way oversteps and over regulates, but in today's world of corruption and lobbyists, I think not.

[PaceAdvantage]

plus the wackos with guns.Good one. :rolleyes:

[bigmack]

Go and check their Tax structure. Their citizens are taxed at a higher rate, much higher, than ours.

To show how misguided your economics are, you make the statement about hiring when businesses are losing money. Well, of course you dont.
But you also, on another thread, defended Carly Fiorina in her outsourcing stating that it is necessary for businesses to compete today.
You talk in such B&W terms. It ain't that simple & you know it.

Froghead corporate taxes are lower than any US state and they have every intention of lowering them from 34 to 20. BANG.

You ever hear of Globalization? Get off the outsource anti-bandwagon. That ship has sailed and it's reached all its ports. BANG.

One more bang and you're down & out. :cool:

[slewis]

You talk in such B&W terms. It ain't that simple & you know it.

Froghead corporate taxes are lower than any US state and they have every intention of lowering them from 34 to 20. BANG.

You ever hear of Globalization? Get off the outsource anti-bandwagon. That ship has sailed and it's reached all its ports. BANG.

One more bang and you're down & out. :cool:

No Mack ..I never heard of that word, globalwhatever.....I guess the billions a day I moved in Dollar/yen-dmark-sterling-euros between banks worldwide was a fig-newton of my imagination.

So why dont you explain.....or I'll make it simple....cut out the middle class some more, this country is DOOMED....revive the middle class, we flourish.

Globalization is not a factor because history has shown when this country gets rolling WE are the fulcrum the globe rotates around.

[johnhannibalsmith]

....revive the middle class, we flourish.

...

Maybe I just can't find your elaborations on making this happen, but it begins with a post detailing European society and the context is "...Welfare State" ...

... so, what I'm wondering here is - is there a connection between these two thoughts that you are expressing? That the misconceptions about Euro-nomics is leading us away from a system which can revive the middle here?

[bigmack]

No Mack ..I never heard of that word, globalwhatever.....I guess the billions a day I moved in Dollar/yen-dmark-sterling-euros between banks worldwide was a fig-newton of my imagination.
So why dont you explain.....or I'll make it simple....cut out the middle class some more, this country is DOOMED....revive the middle class, we flourish.
Globalization is not a factor because history has shown when this country gets rolling WE are the fulcrum the globe rotates around.
No need to toot your horn, I get you were involved. (honk)

It's a new world. ManuFACTuring is down worldwide. Jobs ain't what they used to be in Peoria, Sao Paulo, Taipai & points east & west.

In Europe, for example, where manufacturing accounts for nearly a fifth of gross domestic product, industrial production is down 12 percent from a year ago. In Brazil, it has fallen 15 percent; in Taiwan, a staggering 43 percent.

Even in China, which has become the workshop of the world, production growth has slowed, with exports falling more than 25 percent and millions of factory workers being laid off.

In the United States, until recently a relative bright spot for manufacturing despite the steady erosion of blue-collar jobs, industrial output fell 11 percent in February from a year ago, according to statistics released Monday by the Federal Reserve.

“Manufacturing has fallen off the cliff, and it’s certainly the biggest decline since the Second World War,” said Dirk Schumacher, senior European economist with Goldman Sachs in Frankfurt.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/business/worldbusiness/20shrink.html

[slewis]

Maybe I just can't find your elaborations on making this happen, but it begins with a post detailing European society and the context is "...Welfare State" ...

... so, what I'm wondering here is - is there a connection between these two thoughts that you are expressing? That the misconceptions about Euro-nomics is leading us away from a system which can revive the middle here?

You cant find my elaborations because I, nor does anyone, have easy solutions to the damage done. I mentioned on another thread that many of the attempted solutions tried by this administration are the exact same things the Reagan administration did in the 80's, including significantly adding to the national debt.

Regarding the connection of the thread term "welfare state" to the reality of what the economies of France and the UK are in actuality, I believe I made perfectly clear. None.

[delayjf]

Speaking of tax structure in France, they changed their healthcare law which after 1998 required businesses to pick up the lions share of the healthcare deductions. Where as before the healthcare tax split was 12.8% of gross wages paid by the employer vs 6.8% by the employee - now the employee pays only .75%. That's got to hurt business growth.

[ArlJim78]

The inaccuracy is that you have no understanding of life in France and the mentality of the French citizen, nor is it yours or any other Americans business to disparage their way of life.
You should spend more time on your comprehension skills, and less time on self-puffery and ad hominems. The subject of the report I linked to, which I’m guessing you didn’t listen to, was the dying welfare states of Europe. The report came from France, and they interviewed some people in France, but it was not about France in particular. Nowhere in my comments or in the report was there a claim about understanding the French mentality, or any disparagement of their way of life. (Strike one)
To set the record straight, the problems that plague the French are due to a downturn in the world economy, not their socio-economic system in general.
France is a democracy and they cant vote parties in power with various ideological beliefs. You (and others on PA) are making them out to be lazy socialists. So I will set the record straight for the usually mis-informed
Again, nowhere did I say anything about the French being lazy socialists. The subject is the welfare state model, which is also failing here in the US. The current problems in France and elsewhere were certainly exacerbated by the downtown in the world economy but in no way did the downturn in the economy cause this problem. (Strike two)
Go and check their Tax structure. Their citizens are taxed at a higher rate, much higher, than ours. But it's not only the wealthy. They have a very high (as does the UK) VAT tax. For people like you, this should be a "just be quiet, yankee" sign. You do understand that a VAT tax EQUALLY taxes all it's citizens on consumption at the same rate. A very right wing conservative principle. In return for the high tax structure, French citizens have an expectation of the social programs those tax structures were set up to fund.
The problem is (like with Health Care here) people are living longer and it (along with a weak world economy) is burdening that structure.
People like YOU (and this dumb article) try to spin that into some sought of proof of how socialist societies are doomed to fail, even when they are not true socialist societies.
Yes, they have high taxes in France, finally you have got something correct. I have no idea why France having a VAT tax should be a sign to people like me to be quiet. I’m not against the VAT in principle. I wouldn’t mind if we replaced the income tax with a VAT. I’m simply against high overall tax rates and government spending.
So you say that the French have an expectation from their social programs that their high taxes support. Bravo, once again you’ve stumbled upon the truth. Yet when the state cannot deliver these services anymore you still don’t want to blame the model. When you throw your lot in with the idea that central planners will provide all that you need, you will find out in the long run that these central planners are not very good at adapting to new realities such as an aging population, slower economic growth, etc. Did you see what happened to Sarkozy when he wanted to bump up the retirement age all the way to 62? They burned him in effigy and went on a rampage.

The welfare state drives away businesses due to high taxes; it breeds an entire class of people who become dependent on the state. States go down this path when they are wealthy and successful and growing. In the beginning everything seems great but in the end it’s not sustainable because this kind of society cannot replicate itself and maintain the private sector business engine required to sustain it. (Strike Three)
To show how misguided your economics are, you make the statement about hiring when businesses are losing money. Well, of course you dont.
But you also, on another thread, defended Carly Fiorina in her outsourcing stating that it is necessary for businesses to compete today.
So I'll pose a similar question as above. If ALL corporations implement Carly's (and yours) mentality, who will be left to buy the products your company (and mine too) produce?
All corporations I’m aware of have already implemented this kind of mentality for many decades. What other viable option is there? The business of business is to make money and to sustain the business. It’s not to employ as many people as possible and to never outsource.
Corporations have always been going lean, reducing headcount, replacing people, boosting efficiency, doing more with less, since the beginning of time. In addition to outsourcing, robots, software, CNC machine controls, factory automation, and a myriad other innovations have all reduced corporations dependency on the person. Yet during all of this time the workforce has continued to grow. How is that possible? Well it's because the displaced workers get jobs with other companies. That’s how there are still people arround to buy products. Do you think that every person who loses a job never finds another job and no longer buys anything? Actually here in the US we are encouraging this behavior right now by extending unemployment benefits indefinitely. Once again it's the welfare nanny state providing a disincentive. We’re slowing down now because government is propping up dead companies, and is over regulating and taxing. They are distorting the market and sucking the oxygen out of the air so that businesses can no longer thrive. Profit has become an evil word in this society because of people with your mentality. (Strike four – I’ll give you some free swings)
Without getting into a stone throw here, I'll ask you one question.
Do you think this country can EVER return to prosperity again without a resurgence of the middle class? If your answer is "yes", then your vision of what the US will become is a country where 98% of the people are working (at slave wages) for the other 2%. This is the socio-business model all the statistics are showing we are headed.
For those that back this, you'd better figure a way to dupe the 98% have-nots into voting for your cause. They still have voting power, ya know?
I'll ask you, can the state simply tax and redistribute enough income to provide for a resurgent middleclass? The answer is no.
Yes we need a vibrant middleclass, but it's an outcome of having freemarkets and low taxes. It takes thriving private businesses in order to have a surging middleclass. It also takes an educated and motivated populace free of excessive government taxation and regulation. Welfare states produce the exact opposite. They produce more people who want benefits and provide a disincentive for anyone to create a business. If you want go ahead and push for a ban on outsourcing if you would like, but you had better be prepared for new layoffs and companies going under because businesses can't survive if they try to become a welfare provider.
(Strike five – and with that it's back to the bench for you)

[boxcar]

Boxcar, for once you are correct. The role of business is precisely that. To make profit. But you are misguided about the role of Govt.
One of the MAIN jobs of Govt is to REGULATE businesses. Not to keep them from making profit, but to protect them from damaging the good of society as a whole. To me that includes something like outsourcing.
People like you sometimes (maybe often) have trouble with that distinction.
Take the tobacco industry. Do you feel Govt overstepped it's boundaries in exposing the industry to the dangers it so adamantly denied exist?

Or maybe the Govt should turn the other cheek when GE dumped tons of PCP waste in the Hudson river?

I know you feel Govt way oversteps and over regulates, but in today's world of corruption and lobbyists, I think not.

Oh, oh...you surely picked the wrong analogy to use to try to prove that government protects society from damaging influences or from evil. If government was that virtuous and righteous and really interested in protecting society from evil, then government would just outlaw the use of tobacco for the public's safety (or "good"), since the substance has no redeeming health values. The megabytes of irony here is that the very example you use disproves what you're trying to prove. Might wanna go back to the drawing board on that one... ;)

Boxcar

[boxcar]

You should spend more time on your comprehension skills, and less time on self-puffery and ad hominems. The subject of the report I linked to, which I’m guessing you didn’t listen to, was the dying welfare states of Europe. The report came from France, and they interviewed some people in France, but it was not about France in particular. Nowhere in my comments or in the report was there a claim about understanding the French mentality, or any disparagement of their way of life. (Strike one)

Again, nowhere did I say anything about the French being lazy socialists. The subject is the welfare state model, which is also failing here in the US. The current problems in France and elsewhere were certainly exacerbated by the downtown in the world economy but in no way did the downturn in the economy cause this problem. (Strike two)

Yes, they have high taxes in France, finally you have got something correct. I have no idea why France having a VAT tax should be a sign to people like me to be quiet. I’m not against the VAT in principle. I wouldn’t mind if we replaced the income tax with a VAT. I’m simply against high overall tax rates and government spending.
So you say that the French have an expectation from their social programs that their high taxes support. Bravo, once again you’ve stumbled upon the truth. Yet when the state cannot deliver these services anymore you still don’t want to blame the model. When you throw your lot in with the idea that central planners will provide all that you need, you will find out in the long run that these central planners are not very good at adapting to new realities such as an aging population, slower economic growth, etc. Did you see what happened to Sarkozy when he wanted to bump up the retirement age all the way to 62? They burned him in effigy and went on a rampage.

The welfare state drives away businesses due to high taxes; it breeds an entire class of people who become dependent on the state. States go down this path when they are wealthy and successful and growing. In the beginning everything seems great but in the end it’s not sustainable because this kind of society cannot replicate itself and maintain the private sector business engine required to sustain it. (Strike Three)

All corporations I’m aware of have already implemented this kind of mentality for many decades. What other viable option is there? The business of business is to make money and to sustain the business. It’s not to employ as many people as possible and to never outsource.
Corporations have always been going lean, reducing headcount, replacing people, boosting efficiency, doing more with less, since the beginning of time. In addition to outsourcing, robots, software, CNC machine controls, factory automation, and a myriad other innovations have all reduced corporations dependency on the person. Yet during all of this time the workforce has continued to grow. How is that possible? Well it's because the displaced workers get jobs with other companies. That’s how there are still people arround to buy products. Do you think that every person who loses a job never finds another job and no longer buys anything? Actually here in the US we are encouraging this behavior right now by extending unemployment benefits indefinitely. Once again it's the welfare nanny state providing a disincentive. We’re slowing down now because government is propping up dead companies, and is over regulating and taxing. They are distorting the market and sucking the oxygen out of the air so that businesses can no longer thrive. Profit has become an evil word in this society because of people with your mentality. (Strike four – I’ll give you some free swings)

I'll ask you, can the state simply tax and redistribute enough income to provide for a resurgent middleclass? The answer is no.
Yes we need a vibrant middleclass, but it's an outcome of having freemarkets and low taxes. It takes thriving private businesses in order to have a surging middleclass. It also takes an educated and motivated populace free of excessive government taxation and regulation. Welfare states produce the exact opposite. They produce more people who want benefits and provide a disincentive for anyone to create a business. If you want go ahead and push for a ban on outsourcing if you would like, but you had better be prepared for new layoffs and companies going under because businesses can't survive if they try to become a welfare provider.
(Strike five – and with that it's back to the bench for you)

Excellent post! Couldn't have said it better myself. :ThmbUp:

Boxcar

[ArlJim78]

Couldn't have said it better myself. :ThmbUp:

Boxcar
thanks, but I'm not sure I would agree with you on that.

[NJ Stinks]

Following up on some of the points Slewis made, there is no doubt in my mind that the standard of living is much higher in France than in most of the U.S. (That statement alone should drive more than a few righties crazy.)

In France they actually protect small businesses from conglomerates. They actually protect domestic industries from foreign interests. They make sure everybody has access to healthcare. They don't waste billions of dollars of money they don't have hoping to find WMD. They understand and appreciate the benefits of taking a vacation.

In short, they understand chasing that last dollar of profits abroad sucks in the long run. Good for them.

[boxcar]

Following up on some of the points Slewis made, there is no doubt in my mind that the standard of living is much higher in France than in most of the U.S. (That statement alone should drive more than a few righties crazy.)

In France they actually protect small businesses from conglomerates. They actually protect domestic industries from foreign interests. They make sure everybody has access to healthcare. They don't waste billions of dollars of money they don't have hoping to find WMD. They understand and appreciate the benefits of taking a vacation.

In short, they understand chasing that last dollar of profits abroad sucks in the long run. Good for them.

When are you leaving?

Boxcar

[skate]

gettin to the skinny, yep:)





What if i say there is no information that disproves conservative beliefs? :jump:

[NJ Stinks]

When are you leaving?

Boxcar

:lol:


What? If there is one thing this country doesn't need, it's one less liberal. :p

[boxcar]

:lol:


What? If there is one thing this country doesn't need, it's one less liberal. :p

But France needs you more. They have a conservative president that they need to get rid of. :p

Boxcar

[delayjf]

Speaking of tax structure in France,

Yikes, tax rates goes to 40% starting at @ 95 K (American dollars), not to mention the 19.6 VAT. According to wikipedia the corporate tax rate is 33.1%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_France

[JustRalph]

Following up on some of the points Slewis made, there is no doubt in my mind that the standard of living is much higher in France than in most of the U.S. (That statement alone should drive more than a few righties crazy.).

How in the hell do you qualify that statement? How is the standard of living so much better? I keep hearing this crap, but it is such a broad statement, it makes no sense ?

Tell me why you think they have a higher standard of living ?

You sure it's not just a matter of preference etc? Fill me in.......

[NJ Stinks]

How in the hell do you qualify that statement? How is the standard of living so much better? I keep hearing this crap, but it is such a broad statement, it makes no sense ?

Tell me why you think they have a higher standard of living ?

You sure it's not just a matter of preference etc? Fill me in.......

Ralph, there are bunch of things readily apparent that I like. One of the most obvious is the lack of corporate giants. Unlike here there are no chains that appear in every neighborhood or town one goes into. That means no CVS, no Applebees, no Wal-mart, etc. everywhere. Instead you have sole proprietors making a good living without being swallowed up by conglomerates.

I also liked seeing all the individually-owned bakeries everywhere that make their own stuff. When a French man or woman goes home after work, more often than not they pick up a warm baguette baked on the premisis, a bottle of cheap but good French wine, and have a smoke in their mouth walking down the street.

Another thing I liked that's not PC is that Asians did not dominate ownership of the news agent stores or the convenience stores. And the taxi drivers and bus drivers were actually people of French heritage. Why is that? My guess is that in France these are still considered good jobs to have. Because the middle class is still prospering in France.

Then there is the healthcare. And the food. And the weather. And the vacation time allotted. And the horseracing.

Much of it is preference, of course. I like seeing individuals standing tall owning their own establishments. I like seeing a French woman walking down the street with a baguette under one arm, a bottle of wine in the other, and a smoke on her lips. (That's my idea of sexy!) I like seeing people in general who aren't worried about living a few extra years when, in all probability, they aren't going to like those extra years anyway.

Hell, I just appreciate a country that still reads newspapers.

I guess it's more accurate to say I just think the middle class in France has a higher standard of living than the middle class here. The upper class in both countries are living large, of course.

[JustRalph]

Fair enough. Sounds like you would have loved the late 50's and the 60's in the U.S.

I don't know how old you are......maybe you were around for it.

[newtothegame]

Ralph, there are bunch of things readily apparent that I like. One of the most obvious is the lack of corporate giants. Unlike here there are no chains that appear in every neighborhood or town one goes into. That means no CVS, no Applebees, no Wal-mart, etc. everywhere. Instead you have sole proprietors making a good living without being swallowed up by conglomerates.

I also liked seeing all the individually-owned bakeries everywhere that make their own stuff. When a French man or woman goes home after work, more often than not they pick up a warm baguette baked on the premisis, a bottle of cheap but good French wine, and have a smoke in their mouth walking down the street.

Another thing I liked that's not PC is that Asians did not dominate ownership of the news agent stores or the convenience stores. And the taxi drivers and bus drivers were actually people of French heritage. Why is that? My guess is that in France these are still considered good jobs to have. Because the middle class is still prospering in France.

Then there is the healthcare. And the food. And the weather. And the vacation time allotted. And the horseracing.

Much of it is preference, of course. I like seeing individuals standing tall owning their own establishments. I like seeing a French woman walking down the street with a baguette under one arm, a bottle of wine in the other, and a smoke on her lips. (That's my idea of sexy!) I like seeing people in general who aren't worried about living a few extra years when, in all probability, they aren't going to like those extra years anyway.

Hell, I just appreciate a country that still reads newspapers.

I guess it's more accurate to say I just think the middle class in France has a higher standard of living than the middle class here. The upper class in both countries are living large, of course.

NJ...I actually like this post...although I am sure you find that hard to believe. I ALMOST like all of the things you mentioned.
If you ask yourself a few basic questions about each of the things you described and how they are not like that here, you will get to the things that most of us conservatives wish to change. So In essence, we do think alike.
Its not that we want so many different things, I beleive its how we achieve those things as to why we disagree.

For example, you mentioned the cabbies and bus drivers being of that particuliar countries descent. Well, then the question should be why are our similiar jobs not held as such or in such regard.

Well from a diversity standpoint, I would think our demographics are much more wide spread versus that in french. Do I know this to be fact? Nope, just thinking that to be "french" usually referrences being from France. To be "american" means what again? Does that make sense? United states does not have a natural or original people unless you wish to look at native Americans.
So who would it be that your looking for to work those jobs? People who look like and act like you? I am seriously not trying to sound sarcastic...just asking.

Chain stores...well I would suggest to you that most of WHITE america has become lazy. And for the record, I am white. As a race, we have looked for easier and easier ways of doing things over the past couple hundred years.
I would show "slavery" to be an example of this. Why would "europeans" ( or white people) wish to buy slaves? Probably to get more physical work done and they could reap more profits.
As profits and wealth grew in this country, more and more outsiders (immigrants) wished to come here to share in that wealth. It ultimately led to the major technilogical boom in the 80's.
Now of course there are many other factors, I am just suggesting a few.

I wouldnt be so sure about your "lack of corporate giants" statement. Although you may not see the chains as mentioned here, France is the 4th worldwide in the fortune 500 global just behind the U.S, Japan, and China.

Paris is the second most important localization for the world's 500 biggest companies' headquarters (only to Tokyo). There is more Fortune Global 500's headquarters in Paris than in New York, London, Shangai, Beijing or Frankfurt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_France


Unemployment in France is also above 10%, and they show that as est.

I would also have you look at the huge disparities between the wealthy and the poor in France. You libs consistently talk of that here in the U.S. Not sure how well that would sit with ya lol. Although you did mention the upper class is doing well there :rolleyes: ..

Personally, france as I understand has alot of "old" charms that you speak of.
I would love to see alot of those things as well...just keep in mind (and I know you know this)...everything in life has a price. unfortuneatly, we have sacrificed some of the old...for some of the new. Good or bad, not sure we can turn those things back!

[skate]

:lol:


What? If there is one thing this country doesn't need, it's one less liberal. :p


gotch, it'd be just like a fart, we only need one to stink up the place.

[skate]

Ralph, there are bunch of things readily apparent that I like. One of the most obvious is the lack of corporate giants. Unlike here there are no chains that appear in every neighborhood or town one goes into. That means no CVS, no Applebees, no Wal-mart, etc. everywhere. Instead you have sole proprietors making a good living without being swallowed up by conglomerates.

I also liked seeing all the individually-owned bakeries everywhere that make their own stuff. When a French man or woman goes home after work, more often than not they pick up a warm baguette baked on the premisis, a bottle of cheap but good French wine, and have a smoke in their mouth walking down the street.

Another thing I liked that's not PC is that Asians did not dominate ownership of the news agent stores or the convenience stores. And the taxi drivers and bus drivers were actually people of French heritage. Why is that? My guess is that in France these are still considered good jobs to have. Because the middle class is still prospering in France.

Then there is the healthcare. And the food. And the weather. And the vacation time allotted. And the horseracing.

Much of it is preference, of course. I like seeing individuals standing tall owning their own establishments. I like seeing a French woman walking down the street with a baguette under one arm, a bottle of wine in the other, and a smoke on her lips. (That's my idea of sexy!) I like seeing people in general who aren't worried about living a few extra years when, in all probability, they aren't going to like those extra years anyway.

Hell, I just appreciate a country that still reads newspapers.

I guess it's more accurate to say I just think the middle class in France has a higher standard of living than the middle class here. The upper class in both countries are living large, of course.

Posolutely, i swear, the first time i could even think about being agreeablitised with you.

I reckon Adolf saw what you see.:eek:

[NJ Stinks]

I thought for sure I was going to have to duck after I posted some things I liked about France. :)

Ralph, I was born in 1950.

Newtothegame, interesting post. You raise some good points for sure. (What I look for in a taxi driver here is somebody who speaks English I can understand.)

Skate, I'm not sure what you said except for the stinky part! :mad: :)

[skate]

I thought for sure I was going to have to duck after I posted some things I liked about France. :)

Ralph, I was born in 1950.

Newtothegame, interesting post. You raise some good points for sure. (What I look for in a taxi driver here is somebody who speaks English I can understand.)

Skate, I'm not sure what you said except for the stinky part! :mad: :)

Not sure about what you want to know, but Adolf Hitler and NJ stinkith saw positives in going to France:cool: