Famous Feuds: Pricci versus Byk, Crist, TLG, et al. More HOY Controversy

[andymays]

Of Intramurals, Fairness and Horse of the Year#comments

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/On-The-Line/comments/11162010-of-intramurals-fairness-and-horse-of-the-year/#comments

Excerpt:

Almost immediately after that piece appeared on HRI, I was embarrassed on a cable TV program hosted by Steve Byk, self-promoter extraordinaire.

Excerpt:

“It would only make a travesty of an awards process that is supposed to be ruled by fairness and reason rather than revenge and sentimentality,” wrote columnist Steven Crist.

If that is true then Crist should know that this game often is more about revenge and sentiment than it is about fairness and reason. It’s not as if Drape and I were about to vote for Zippy Chippy.

Local racing fans have told me that racing analyst Andy Serling said anyone voting for Zenyatta should lose their privileges, or words to that effect.

Serling’s remarks may or may not have been pointed, though I suspect they were. I never have seen the talented albeit abrasive acolyte disagree with his mentor publicly. Loyalty has its rewards.

[andymays]

For the record I disagree with Pricci on this one. I think it was a big mistake to declare Z HOY prior to the race. I think Blame should win the award.

[FenceBored]

Let's not forget the under the radar feud: Lenny Shulman and Andy Serling.

[andymays]

Let's not forget the under the radar feud: Lenny Shulman and Andy Serling.
Didn't hear about that one.

[cj]

Didn't hear about that one.

I think it was on Roger Stein. You missed that?

[andymays]

I think it was on Roger Stein. You missed that?

I guess I did. How big of a dust-up was it?

[cj]

Shulman was on, not TLG. He took a cheap shot or two. It dated back to them being on Byk's show together.

[andymays]

Shulman was on, not TLG. He took a cheap shot or two. It dated back to them being on Byk's show together.

I remember something like that but I don't remember him specifically talking about TLG. I must have been cooking breakfast and listening at the same time. Sausage and eggs makes too much noise to hear everything. :D

I like all these guys but I disagree with them from time to time. These dust-ups help the boards though. :)

[RXB]

"Indeed, since its inaugural in 1984, the majority of Classic winners were not named Horse of the Year; 11 were, 15 were not. Tiznow won two Classics and was Horse of the Year once. The same is true of Cigar."

Actually, Cigar is the opposite of Tiznow-- won the Classic once, HoY twice.

"Is five pre-Classic Grade 1 victories over females by a female more or less significant than two Grade 1s by a male over males?"

Three Gr 1 wins for Blame when the Classic is included.

[andymays]

It made the Paulick Report. I wonder how he got the article. :confused:



http://www.paulickreport.com/

Pricci takes off gloves: rips Byk, Serling, Crist for polarizing Horse of the Year debate

[Cardus]

If I were trying to take a shot at Crist -- which means, trying to make him look unreasonable or foolish -- then I would not have used that Crist quote.

Crist distills the debate quite intelligently.

That quote does nothing to bolster Pricci's column. Crist is correct.

[Tom]

Who owns the eclipse awards?

And why are they so damned lazy that they can't set criteria for getting the awards?

Until they do, anyone's opinion is a good as anyone else's.

[DeanT]

Jim C is not a Serling or Byk fan I see.He must be a Paceadvantage.com follower, because some references could only have been gleaned by reading Serling's paceadvantage Zenyatta diatribes.

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/On-The-Line/comments/11162010-of-intramurals-fairness-and-horse-of-the-year/#c91755

[The_Knight_Sky]

I think it was a big mistake to declare Z HOY prior to the race.




That was like annointing the Dallas Cowboys as the NFC representative
in the Super Bowl before the season started.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2n6rrb4.gif 10 yards for illegal procedure for any media type
who made up his/her mind before the Breeders Cup Classic was run.

[Cardus]

Of Intramurals, Fairness and Horse of the Year#comments

http://www.horseraceinsider.com/On-The-Line/comments/11162010-of-intramurals-fairness-and-horse-of-the-year/#comments

Excerpt:

Almost immediately after that piece appeared on HRI, I was embarrassed on a cable TV program hosted by Steve Byk, self-promoter extraordinaire.

Excerpt:

“It would only make a travesty of an awards process that is supposed to be ruled by fairness and reason rather than revenge and sentimentality,” wrote columnist Steven Crist.

If that is true then Crist should know that this game often is more about revenge and sentiment than it is about fairness and reason. It’s not as if Drape and I were about to vote for Zippy Chippy.

Local racing fans have told me that racing analyst Andy Serling said anyone voting for Zenyatta should lose their privileges, or words to that effect.

Serling’s remarks may or may not have been pointed, though I suspect they were. I never have seen the talented albeit abrasive acolyte disagree with his mentor publicly. Loyalty has its rewards.

On what basis did Pricci conclude this? Is Pricci's belief that Serling has him in mind when he is on the air?

Is Pricci that important to believe this? (Is he important at all might be a better question.)

[FenceBored]

I remember something like that but I don't remember him specifically talking about TLG. I must have been cooking breakfast and listening at the same time. Sausage and eggs makes too much noise to hear everything. :D

I like all these guys but I disagree with them from time to time. These dust-ups help the boards though. :)

Roger Stein show November 7 2010 starting at approx 31:00



Roger Stein: But, Lenny let me get your take. I don't say this because you're a friend, or because you're on the air with us, but the truth is sometimes people are really unfair; biased in a way that’s kind of silly. We all know that. And I don’t think you or I or many others could do the same thing if it was some favorite horse of theirs, just because it came from, you know, east of the Rockies, or any number of silly things. Your opinion, for example, this gallant mare who I believe is the best racemare of all time, what can’t she do? Is there something she proved she couldn’t do?

Lenny Shulman: I said on And They’re Off last week that she does not need to win this race to prove anything to anybody, that she is already at the top echelon of the sport ever and the only difference would be whether we could continue to refer to her as being undefeated, or not. And that was the big difference to me. But, yeah I got into it on another radio show earlier this week with one of these East Coast characters who, you know, kept saying “not to disparage her, not to disparage her” and then, you know, spent ten minutes trying to disparage her. And I said, “enough’s enough, you know, enough is enough, you know, you are an idiot.” And ah, you know I don’t think she had anything to prove there and we were standing on the racetrack, literally on the racetrack and the first time they came by us my colleague Steve Haskin turned to me and said “she has no shot.” And, you know, no sane person would’ve disagreed with him at that point, the way she was traveling and the way the field was getting away from her. But you’ve just seen it too many times with her. You know, you can never count it out and, uh, by the time they came by us the second time I thought she was going to go by. I thought she had the opportunity to go by and I really thought she was going to, but, uh, Blame is a top, top, top racehorse. He himself is a couple of very oddly run races away from his own unbeaten streak, which probably would be about 10 now, and, uh you know, look, you absolutely have to take you hats off to Blame, because I think any other racehorse, she was going by.

=======================

Shots at Serling are the bolded bits. Note the personal namecalling, which of course, according to Pricci, no Zenyatta supporter would ever stoop to.

I hadn't listened to Byk's show in some months (since the switch to the morning's, so I didn't immediately know who he was talking about, or what show he'd been on. But given that it was Shulman, Haskin's friend and Haskin is regularly on Byk's show I figured it was there. So, I went back to find Lenny's appearance and it was Tuesday Nov 2nd, and seeing Andy's name listed as a guest in Hour 3 I downloaded that. Based on that conversation, Andy was the one I figure he must have been thinking of. You can pull the archive if you like: Thoroughbred Racing Radio Network (http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/index.php?option=com_events&task=view_detail&agid=865&year=2010&month=11&day=02&Itemid=35)

As to the red bits, I love it. Lenny, let's see if I've got this straight. If someone had disagreed with you and Steve about Zenyatta's chances as they went past you the first time they'd have been insane, but given the way things turned out, they'd have been right. Whereas, if they'd have agreed with you early in the race they're sane, but they, like you, would have been wrong. And who's got a better grasp on her capabilities and potential?

[andymays]

Thanks for the details Fence. I remember some of that.

I like listening to Lenny, Steve, and TLG when they're on because they have strong opinions. I don't see the big deal when they "go off" either because I think it's entertaining. I didn't think Z would run as well as she did but she proved me wrong. I think it was insane to bet on her at that price and I think the price on Blame was insane. They both should have been in the 5-2 range in my opinion.

Z's connections caused most of this by the way they campaigned her. That's not the horses fault it's theirs.

Pricci seemed to regret his column yesterday but I think it was a great food fight. Things did get out of hand in the comment sections but so what. I think somebody on there told me to "grow up". :D That'll be the day. ;)

Again, thanks for the transcript Fence. I'll keep listening to all the guys mentioned because they all have something to say. :ThmbUp:

[andymays]

On what basis did Pricci conclude this? Is Pricci's belief that Serling has him in mind when he is on the air?

Is Pricci that important to believe this? (Is he important at all might be a better question.)

Andy obviously got under his skin. If you send Pricci an email he will most likely respond to your question.

[cj]

Andy obviously got under his skin. If you send Pricci an email he will most likely respond to your question.

He didn't even hear Andy. He heard it second hand, so who knows in what tone it was relayed to him. It was a sad piece of "journalism".

[andymays]

He didn't even hear Andy. He heard it second hand, so who knows in what tone it was relayed to him. It was a sad piece of "journalism".

I was surprised he went off like he did.

As I said Pricci made a huge mistake by declaring Z the HOY before the Classic. The close finish gave him a little cover but not much.

The way I look at it just about everyone says or does stuff in their life that they regret. If it's an isolated incident then I give them a pass. If it's a pattern then it plays out differently.

For me it's a little like the fight between Borel and Castellano. Nobody really got hurt and the drama got more people involved. Right now he's got well over 100 comments under the article.

[Grits]

On Shulman--in this transcript, this fella needs to learn some English other than . . ."you know".

He says these two words eight times in a span of what, maybe, one minute of air time? Not good, not good at all.

[FenceBored]

On Shulman--in this transcript, this fella needs to learn some English other than . . ."you know".

He says these two words eight times in a span of what, maybe, one minute of air time? Not good, not good at all.

Eh {shrug}, it's a verbal tick many people share. It's not like Shulman does a whole lot of audio work, a couple of radio appearances and And They're Off. He's mainly a writer and I don't believe he does it in print.

[Grits]

You're exactly right, Fence. He's a fine writer. And if I had to be on air--who knows it could be intimidating as can be for myself as well. Truly so.

On air's a tough gig. No disrespect to Shulman.

[BluegrassProf]

It was a sad piece of "journalism". :D Turf journalism is where actual journalism goes to die a painful, flailing death.

The way Steve Haskin presents himself as a "journalist" is particularly embarrassing...he's about as journalistic as the Thai chicken salad I'm presently enjoying. I struggle to even call him a columnist - he's more a blogger than anything else, and I mean that with no disrespect to the many talented bloggers out there.

Speaking of Shulman, I knew a guy in college that talked JUST like him. It was great, particularly when he knocked back a scotch or five...imagine that draaawwwn out voice after drinks... :faint:

Gotta say, I was pleased with Shulman's rant re: Blame's retirement on the last ATO...the Blame/Claiborne story is an excellent one, and it was nice to see the sentiment echoed (emphatically).

[Cardus]

I think that it is embarrassing that in a room as large as this that no one picked up on the items that CJ and I highlighted.

It's OK, boys and girls, to criticize John Pricci.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
It's OK, boys and girls, to criticize John Pricci.

Who the hell is John Pricci?

How's that?

[letswastemoney]

I've always questioned why people like Steve Haskin so much. All he does is write "pretty horse" articles.

[OTM Al]

There has always seemed to me to be an arc that a sportswriter's career goes through. Genearlly when they start, they are fans of the sport, which gets them the extra drive to get through their early, shall we say, lean years. Eventually they become established and confident in their position. At some point during this state, they begin to think of themselves as experts in what they are covering. This then generally transforms into the writer thinking that he and his kind are the true guardians of the history and integrity of the sport. This is where the downward spiral begins. They act as if they are priviledged and that they are better than all the other new writers and even the fans themselves. Of course when they do this they become a pompous target for those they look down on and they start getting kicked more and more often. If they haven't drunk themselves to death by this point, they end up jaded and mean spirited, continually writing about how nothing now is any good and everything was so much better before, back when they were coming up. Eventually people forget who they even were...

[GatetoWire]

There has always seemed to me to be an arc that a sportswriter's career goes through. Genearlly when they start, they are fans of the sport, which gets them the extra drive to get through their early, shall we say, lean years. Eventually they become established and confident in their position. At some point during this state, they begin to think of themselves as experts in what they are covering. This then generally transforms into the writer thinking that he and his kind are the true guardians of the history and integrity of the sport. This is where the downward spiral begins. They act as if they are priviledged and that they are better than all the other new writers and even the fans themselves. Of course when they do this they become a pompous target for those they look down on and they start getting kicked more and more often. If they haven't drunk themselves to death by this point, they end up jaded and mean spirited, continually writing about how nothing now is any good and everything was so much better before, back when they were coming up. Eventually people forget who they even were...


AL: very well said

My take is that all of these talking heads are fun to listen to and read their blogs etc but does anybody really care what they think?

I listen to Steve Byk's show every day and it's generally well done but I never really got worked up over anything I heard on it.
I think it's hilarious that Serling comes on and speaks his mind. Last week he laid into a caller who wouldn't let him speak.....it was classic.

Pricci seems way too interested in what everyone else is doing and saying. He takes some pretty petty potshots at people who disagree with him.
The whole thing seems very weak and self centered.

I maybe wrong but I don't think I have every heard Steve Byk, Andy Serling or Crist call anyone out by name that they disagreed with.

[GatetoWire]

Shulman was on, not TLG. He took a cheap shot or two. It dated back to them being on Byk's show together.

CJ: I am new to this board and to the T-bred scene. I was a long time serious harness player that has switched thoroughbred racing in the last 6 months.
Why is Serling referred to as TLG in this thread?

[JustRalph]

CJ: I am new to this board and to the T-bred scene. I was a long time serious harness player that has switched thoroughbred racing in the last 6 months.
Why is Serling referred to as TLG in this thread?

his handle on this board is " the little guy"

[Cardus]

CJ: I am new to this board and to the T-bred scene. I was a long time serious harness player that has switched thoroughbred racing in the last 6 months.
Why is Serling referred to as TLG in this thread?

"TLG" refers to him as "The Last Guardian."

[Cardus]

There has always seemed to me to be an arc that a sportswriter's career goes through. Genearlly when they start, they are fans of the sport, which gets them the extra drive to get through their early, shall we say, lean years. Eventually they become established and confident in their position. At some point during this state, they begin to think of themselves as experts in what they are covering. This then generally transforms into the writer thinking that he and his kind are the true guardians of the history and integrity of the sport. This is where the downward spiral begins. They act as if they are priviledged and that they are better than all the other new writers and even the fans themselves. Of course when they do this they become a pompous target for those they look down on and they start getting kicked more and more often. If they haven't drunk themselves to death by this point, they end up jaded and mean spirited, continually writing about how nothing now is any good and everything was so much better before, back when they were coming up. Eventually people forget who they even were...

Ring Lardner is one of my favorites, too.

[OTM Al]

Ring Lardner is one of my favorites, too.

He was good. Got a collection of his work around here somewhere. Black Sox Scandal supposedly was what soured him. I was actually thinking of someone else when I wrote that though.

[Cardus]

He was good. Got a collection of his work around here somewhere. Black Sox Scandal supposedly was what soured him. I was actually thinking of someone else when I wrote that though.

Who is it? Not Jimmy Cannon, not Red Smith, not W.C. Heinz, but it has to be a New York guy, right?

[Stevie Belmont]

The only thing Serling knows is trips & traps.

[tribecaagent]

The only thing Serling knows is trips & traps.

I expected a bit more from you Stevie. You know what though, eventually, every cat shows their true spots.

[Stevie Belmont]

He picked a fight with me. He is a public figure and being open to criticism is part of the game, and that comment about Zenyatta is ridiculous.

This is a guy who has a Twitter account and blocks people? Do you think the NYRA would approve?

[Bullet Plane]

TLG knows his stuff. That's for sure! One of the top handicappers in the country. Hell, I thought everybody knew that.

[cj]

He picked a fight with me. He is a public figure and being open to criticism is part of the game, and that comment about Zenyatta is ridiculous.

This is a guy who has a Twitter account and blocks people? Do you think the NYRA would approve?

He blocks people with cause. Probably has to do with people posting things like you did about PA's Classic pick. Nice selections, by the way.

[Stevie Belmont]

Bullshit. Stay out of it. You were wrong on Zenyatta. Over and over again. Bashing the poor horse over and over.

I have never once in my life said anything negative on Twitter to anyone and you probably don't even know what it is. So you would not know, would you?


He blocks people with cause. Probably has to do with people posting things like you did about PA's Classic pick. Nice selections, by the way.

[cj]

Bullshit. Stay out of it. You were wrong on Zenyatta. Over and over again. Bashing the poor horse over and over.

I have never once in my life said anything negative on Twitter to anyone and you probably don't even know what it is. So you would not know, would you?

Sure I know. I never said it was you, I said something like what you posted.

I never bashed a horse...her connections, sure, and I was dead right about her like it or not. Dream trip and still lost despite running her fastest dirt race ever.

[Stevie Belmont]

Listen you have come at me before. I know your game.

Sure I know. I never said it was you, I said something like what you posted.

I never bashed a horse...her connections, sure, and I was dead right about her like it or not. Dream trip and still lost despite running her fastest dirt race ever.

[Stevie Belmont]

Dream trip. Horse altered course. Read the charts.

Sure I know. I never said it was you, I said something like what you posted.

I never bashed a horse...her connections, sure, and I was dead right about her like it or not. Dream trip and still lost despite running her fastest dirt race ever.

[cj]

Listen you have come at me before. I know your game.

What game is that, telling it like I see it? I thought that is what a message board was about.

Read the charts? Why? I've seen the race countless times and a few hundred thousand others.

Altered course? Stop making excuses for a horse that doesn't need one. She ran great. She was a tad not the best after a perfect setup. There is no shame in doing that as a 6yo mare.

[Stevie Belmont]

She needs no excuses. I'm leaving it at that.


What game is that, telling it like I see it? I thought that is what a message board was about.

Read the charts? Why? I've seen the race countless times and a few hundred thousand others.

Altered course? Stop making excuses for a horse that doesn't need one. She ran great. She was a tad not the best after a perfect setup. There is no shame in doing that as a 6yo mare.

[toetoe]

Pricci, thoroughbred "journalist," admits that his sources are third-, fourth-, fifth-hand. Then he says he didn't open the link to verify some other charge. I also wonder how he can finally decide on his vote before December 31 !?!
This guy's a piece of ... work. Yeah, that's it --- work.



Now, my greatest rivalries of 2010, brought to you by .....

Caddyshack [TM] for Erectile Dysfunction. Drive it longer and straighter:



Mike Smith and Chantal Sunderland. Just who wants it more here ? Who indeed ?

Bisnath Parboo and Naipaul Chatterpaul (er sump'm like that).

John "Ace" Piesen and George Zimmer. George is hotter'n a two-dollar pistol. He thought he had "Ace" under exclusive contract to wear Men's Wearhouse slacks. Uh, it didn't work out so well. "And they're off !!!"

That owner guy Zayat and the world.

Calvin "Boo Boo" Borel and J.J. Castellano.

J.J. Gracie's wife Samm and ... talent.

[Bullet Plane]

Bullshit. Stay out of it. You were wrong on Zenyatta. Over and over again. Bashing the poor horse over and over.

I have never once in my life said anything negative on Twitter to anyone and you probably don't even know what it is. So you would not know, would you?
Poor form. You got TLG mad at you. And you are doing a great job of getting everyone here mad at you. Admit you were wrong and press on. The mare lost. What part of that don't you understand?
I think Pace needs to ban your posts. They are in bad taste.

[cj]

She needs no excuses. I'm leaving it at that.

You know when to throw in the towel.

[Stevie Belmont]

I did not throw in any towel. It was not a perfect trip. But that does not mean she would have won anyway. It might have not had too much impact on the result anyway, but she definitely altered course a little. So I don't care what anyone says. I saw it, and millions of others saw it. But what is the point now? It's over. Blame ran great too.

Sorry to anyone that is upset. Not what I wanted to do. That is not what I am about. I also deeply regret any mention of knocking anyones numbers. That was a mistake. I do take that back.

I don't think I will post here from here on out ,so the ones who want me out don't have to worry.

[cj]

I don't think I will post here from here on out ,so the ones who want me out don't have to worry.

Now which horses do I throw out?

[thaskalos]

Now which horses do I throw out?Don't worry...

I am thinking of posting some picks in the selections thread starting tomorrow.

[cj]

Don't worry...

I am thinking of posting some picks in the selections thread starting tomorrow.

You don't have the same track record as a SB. I suspect you'll do ok. What track? I'll join in.

Hopefully you'll see now why I made the generalization I did about Z fans. :jump:

[thaskalos]

You don't have the same track record as a SB. I suspect you'll do ok. What track? I'll join in.

Hopefully you'll see now why I made the generalization I did about Z fans. :jump:HAW, CRC, WO, DED, CT.

[cj]

HAW, CRC, WO, DED, CT.

CT and DeD for sure...the other I might not have time. CYA then.

[thaskalos]

CT and DeD for sure...the other I might not have time. CYA then.Is this a challenge of sorts? I don't know if I can perform under pressure.

[cj]

Is this a challenge of sorts? I don't know if I can perform under pressure.

Of course not, just posting some picks and talking about them. If you said Pen I'd have declined.

[exiles]

TLG knows his stuff. That's for sure! One of the top handicappers in the country. Hell, I thought everybody knew that.

One of the best handicappers in the country? I like to know what you smoke, at best maybe in his home.

[cj]

One of the best handicappers in the country? I like to know what you smoke, at best maybe in his home.

I'm sure you have a lengthy CV.

[thaskalos]

Of course not, just posting some picks and talking about them. If you said Pen I'd have declined.Do you like the night tracks? I have gotten very fond of them lately...with the exception of PEN and MNR of course.

[cj]

Do you like the night tracks? I have gotten very fond of them lately...with the exception of PEN and MNR of course.

Some, not all. I don't mind Mnr but I'm selective.

[KingChas]

Best reply to JP............. #12 by Nick K.

"Debate should be above the level of name calling. Maybe I’m naive, but I believe the people who resort to it will eventually (if they haven’t already) be exposed for what they are."

Biggest turn off of the whole Zenyatta ordeal.
Took the enjoyment out of debating,at least for this poster.

[eastie]

Now which horses do I throw out?


you top selections would be a good start :)

[cj]

Anyone want to see what a real scumbag Pricci is, check out the comments below the article now. Of course he can't control what people write, but he could moderate it a little.

On second thought, scumbag is too nice.

[Grits]

I'll never read another word the man writes. Not that I've read many of his musings to begin with.

Someone needs to telephone this man, right away. And someone in THIS INDUSTRY surely is able to do this. Someone has a cellphone # that he can be reached.

I have no idea who or what kinda of scum would write such things online--BUT THIS MAN'S COMMENTS TO HIS COLUMN NEED TO BE PULLED.

I've never been unfortunate enough to read comments like this online, anywhere, but then, too, I've never been fond of porn. This stuff written about members, here, and those posing as individuals, here at PA, is beyond sick.

He'd take it down, quick, or he'd be in court.

This is poor management for any thing posing as a journalist!!!

[OTM Al]

Several of us have now been impersonated, likely by one person familiar with this board. I am sure I am about to be as well after posting this. I sent the following to Mr. Pricci. His actions will prove what kind of person he really is.

Mr. Pricci, if you are going to allow posting on your blogs, you also have the responsibility to monitor what people are writing. Someone is impersonating several people on the Pace Advantage board, writing some real garbage. If you can't control what is going on your own site then frankly it's time to shut down your operations as it is an embarrassment.

[OTM Al]

This person was logged into the board in the last half hour. Can't do better than that as like much else, Pricci's time stamps are faulty.

[andymays]

They took the whole thing down. Wow. I hadn't read it since yesterday. The person doing that has to be one sick individual.

[Indulto]

Several of us have now been impersonated, likely by one person familiar with this board. I am sure I am about to be as well after posting this. I sent the following to Mr. Pricci. His actions will prove what kind of person he really is.

Mr. Pricci, if you are going to allow posting on your blogs, you also have the responsibility to monitor what people are writing. Someone is impersonating several people on the Pace Advantage board, writing some real garbage. If you can't control what is going on your own site then frankly it's time to shut down your operations as it is an embarrassment.You're absolutely right , OA.

It is certainly Mr. Pricci's responsibility ro control what's going on, but I don't think he, personally, deserves being the target of venom from here, either. It's a damn shame a few rotten apples are spoiling it for everyone else.

[TommyCh]

The page is blank. Template there, content not...

[Stillriledup]

Here's my logic as to why i think Z should be HOY.

Going into the Classic, Z was WAY ahead in the 'voting'. If the votes were taken before the Classic, she would have won in a landslide, in other words, it was 'her HOY to lose'.

She raced amazingly well and in my opinion, didn't do enough to 'blow' her huge 'lead' she had going into the race. She 'did enough' to hold her large margin.

[TommyCh]

The Eclipse Award is decided by people and people are the least attractive part of this game. :D

Does it really matter to us fans or even "journalists" who wins HOY? I know it matters to the owners and trainers, and don't dismiss the entertainment value of a gazzilionaire pouting because his horse didn't win a trophy. It's about the human, not the horse, when these people sulk.

That being said, the vitriol that has swirled around Zenyatta for various reasons for so many months has been especially unfortunate. Throw bricks if you want to, but my gut feeling is that it has been the Zenyatta fans who have been more mean-spirited and venomous in this whole thing, But, overall, such is the quality of all discourse in our society today.

[thaskalos]

:D
Throw bricks if you want to, but my gut feeling is that it has been the Zenyatta fans who have been more mean-spirited and venomous in this whole thing, But, overall, such is the quality of all discourse in our society today.I don't recall us Zenyatta fans calling the Zenyatta critics "names", and questioning their handicapping ability. If we Zenyatta fans really are such bad handicappers, why were we the first to notice Rachel Alexandra's diminishing skills earlier this year?

This is the main difference in this whole Zenyatta debate, IMO:

The Zenyatta fans who were calling Zenyatta a "superhorse" and comparing her with Secretariat, were novice horseplayers with limited posts on this board...and they could be forgiven.

The Zenyatta "critics" on the other hand - who were calling her just "a synthetic surface curiosity" - were some of the most established, most knowledgeable members of this board...and they clearly should have known better.

[cj]

Here's my logic as to why i think Z should be HOY.

Going into the Classic, Z was WAY ahead in the 'voting'. If the votes were taken before the Classic, she would have won in a landslide, in other words, it was 'her HOY to lose'.

She raced amazingly well and in my opinion, didn't do enough to 'blow' her huge 'lead' she had going into the race. She 'did enough' to hold her large margin.

In whose mind was she way ahead? Most people seemed to agree it was between Blame, Quality Road, Lookin At Lucky, and Zenyatta, a true winner take all.

Newsflash...she didn't win.

[GaryG]

Going into the Classic, Z was WAY ahead in the 'voting'. If the votes were taken before the Classic, she would have won in a landslide, in other words, it was 'her HOY to lose'.Only if you consider the HOY as a Lifetime Achievement Award. Certainly not on what she did this year prior to the Classic.

[cj]

The Zenyatta "critics" on the other hand - who were calling her just "a synthetic surface curiosity" - were some of the most established, most knowledgeable members of this board...and they clearly should have known better.

I'm still waiting to hear under what conditions she actually could have won that race. I think in the poll I picked 15-19% chance, which proved out to me to be pretty accurate if not an overestimate. The pace couldn't have been better for her, and she was a head short.

[thaskalos]

I'm still waiting to hear under what conditions she actually could have won that race. I think in the poll I picked 15-19% chance, which proved out to me to be pretty accurate if not an overestimate. The pace couldn't have been better for her, and she was a head short.I predicted that she had a 36% chance of winning the Classic...and I dare say, that - given what we all witnessed during the race - my estimate was more accurate than yours. :)

[cj]

I predicted that she had a 36% chance of winning the race...and I dare say, that - given what we all witnessed during the race - my estimate was more accurate than yours. :)

I would disagree. Perfect setup and she didn't get it done, and make no mistake that setup was extreme.

[JustRalph]

Well, I missed it. It is all taken down now..........

Anybody save a screen capture etc ?

[cj]

Well, I missed it. It is all taken down now..........

Anybody save a screen capture etc ?

It wasn't worth seeing, trust me.

[Bullet Plane]

One of the best handicappers in the country? I like to know what you smoke, at best maybe in his home.
You obviously don't know squat about horseracing. I don't know what you are smoking in his home. But I can guess.

[cj]

You're absolutely right , OA.

It is certainly Mr. Pricci's responsibility ro control what's going on, but I don't think he, personally, deserves being the target of venom from here, either. It's a damn shame a few rotten apples are spoiling it for everyone else.

It is his site. Of course he deserves it. The posts were up for a long time. Only a true fool would allow posts to be made on his site without moderation. So, is he a fool, or was it intentional?

As for the article itself, it is just amazing to me he was so mad about second hand information. Shouldn't he have at least had a listen for himself? He was wrong about Byk and Serling. Neither one went after him specifically. But he did no fact checking, he just ranted.

[TommyCh]

I don't recall us Zenyatta fans calling the Zenyatta critics "names", and questioning their handicapping ability. If we Zenyatta fans really are such bad handicappers, why were we the first to notice Rachel Alexandra's diminishing skills earlier this year?

This is the main difference in this whole Zenyatta debate, IMO:

The Zenyatta fans who were calling Zenyatta a "superhorse" and comparing her with Secretariat, were novice horseplayers with limited posts on this board...and they could be forgiven.

The Zenyatta "critics" on the other hand - who were calling her just "a synthetic surface curiosity" - were some of the most established, most knowledgeable members of this board...and they clearly should have known better.

I've seen names tossed in both directions. Perhaps I am referring to one local board I know, where things got 10 times uglier than on this board. PA was mostly civilized.

Zenyatta was great when she was called upon in the great races. I just wish her connections would have put her in greater races. I firmly believe Zenyatta's true dirt prowess was established in only her last race, and that's unfortunate. To me.

As far as Rachel is concerned, Asmussen overflew his skis and had no business insinuating Rachel would be ready for the Apple Blossom. That's on Asmussen and Jackson, not on Rachel. She didn't duck the race; she never should have been committed to it. Any horseplayer who didn't realize that Rachel was not ready for an early-April showdown with an always-in-training Zenyatta ... That said, I think Rachel herself had a courageous 2010 campaign, she just wasn't the same horse.

Public comment on the Internet is a study in extremes. People who villify one viewpoint (or horse) or another do it for their own self-aggrandizement. Can they not enjoy both horses?

[OTM Al]

It is his site. Of course he deserves it. The posts were up for a long time. Only a true fool would allow posts to be made on his site without moderation. So, is he a fool, or was it intentional?

As for the article itself, it is just amazing to me he was so mad about second hand information. Shouldn't he have at least had a listen for himself? He was wrong about Byk and Serling. Neither one went after him specifically. But he did no fact checking, he just ranted.

Not sure he really gets it either. In his apology post, if you want to call it that, he wrote,

"Obviously, this is some movement to discredit this site."

No, it was not meant to discredit the site. Some jerk simply used the site as a tool to try to slander a bunch people. And he was using Mr. Pricci's lead. Mr. Pricci is the only one that has discredited his site.

[cj]

Not sure he really gets it either. In his apology post, if you want to call it that, he wrote,

"Obviously, this is some movement to discredit this site."

No, it was not meant to discredit the site. Some jerk simply used the site as a tool to try to slander a bunch people. And he was using Mr. Pricci's lead. Mr. Pricci is the only one that has discredited his site.

I just shook my head when I read that. You can lead a horse to water...

[FenceBored]

I don't recall us Zenyatta fans calling the Zenyatta critics "names", and questioning their handicapping ability. If we Zenyatta fans really are such bad handicappers, why were we the first to notice Rachel Alexandra's diminishing skills earlier this year?


:eek: I got called NANCY PELOSI! You haven't been called anything that can be compared to that.

[Indulto]

It is his site. Of course he deserves it. The posts were up for a long time. Only a true fool would allow posts to be made on his site without moderation. So, is he a fool, or was it intentional?It was neither. Prior to this there was little need for a full-time monitor and I don't think you're foolish enough to believe what you're writing, either.As for the article itself, it is just amazing to me he was so mad about second hand information. Shouldn't he have at least had a listen for himself? He was wrong about Byk and Serling. Neither one went after him specifically. But he did no fact checking, he just ranted.IMO he's contributed more to insightful on-line discussion than the three of you experienced ranters combined. Why not let tlg and Derby Trail speak for themselves here rather than through you?Not sure he really gets it either. In his apology post, if you want to call it that, he wrote,

"Obviously, this is some movement to discredit this site."

No, it was not meant to discredit the site. Some jerk simply used the site as a tool to try to slander a bunch people. And he was using Mr. Pricci's lead. Mr. Pricci is the only one that has discredited his site.Here is the full comment at that site after all the offensive ones were deleted. (Tom's legitimate critical post was left up)JRP says:
19 Nov 2010 at 04:40 pm | # (http://#c92004)

OK, so there are a bunch of really sick, classless individuals having their way with us.
It will take some time but all noxious, racist, sexist and vile comments will be closed.
It will just take some time, so please be patient.
Obviously, this is some movement to discredit this site.
My apologies to one and all. We’re very sorry, indeed.

John Pricci,
HRI executive editorYou're probably one of the few hostiles here who isn't throwing stones from a glass house, but I hope you'll make your opinions known directly at his site for direct feedback if he's willing. I know that you and I have very different reactions to several turf writers, but he's one of the good guys -- at least from a horseplayers perspective -- and an honest critic just like yourself.
You should also be aware that someone has been generating meaningless one-word (short alphanumeric string) responses to old threads there which effectively results in spam attacks to frequent contributors like me. He IS being targeted for some reason -- maybe just because his site has been vulnerable.

We don't blame PA for the countless insults that appear here. Let's not be hypocritical about what's happening there.

[bigmack]

We don't blame PA for the countless insults that appear here. Let's not be hypocritical about what's happening there.
Apples/Oranges. Nothing close to that has ever appeared around these parts.

He refers to "a bunch of really sick, classless individuals" when I would wager it's only one sicko. Easy enough for him to find out. In light of the abhorrent nature of those comments & masquerading with the monikers of people here, he ought to contact PA and they can compare IP addresses and expose this brainsick individual.

[cj]

It was neither. Prior to this there was little need for a full-time monitor and I don't think you're foolish enough to believe what you're writing, either.IMO he's contributed more to insightful on-line discussion than the three of you experienced ranters combined. Why not let tlg and Derby Trail speak for themselves here rather than through you?Here is the full comment at that site after all the offensive ones were deleted. (Tom's legitimate critical post was left up)You're probably one of the few hostiles here who isn't throwing stones from a glass house, but I hope you'll make your opinions known directly at his site for direct feedback if he's willing. I know that you and I have very different reactions to several turf writers, but he's one of the good guys -- at least from a horseplayers perspective -- and an honest critic just like yourself.
[/list]You should also be aware that someone has been generating meaningless one-word (short alphanumeric string) responses to old threads there which effectively results in spam attacks to frequent contributors like me. He IS being targeted for some reason -- maybe just because his site has been vulnerable.

We don't blame PA for the countless insults that appear here. Let's not be hypocritical about what's happening there.

I don't want to play the quote game. I'll just say what I think. First, the stuff was pulled and I think my writing to him had A LOT to do with it. I was polite, but firm. I was a lot nicer than I should have been. Anybody that thinks you can blindly let people post what they want on your web site is a fool without at least putting some checks in. Why do you think people have to register for message boards or have comments moderated at other sites?

Why should TLG and DT speak? Pricci himself admits in his own pseudo-article that it is second hand. He took both way out of context. All he had to do was spend 5 or 10 minutes and listen himself. As for his contributions, doubtful.

As for his apology, the line above it speaks volumes. Can he really be this dense? I mean, obviously he can as other things recently have shown, but his article drew the exact kinds of "fans" that can be expected from such a ridiculous piece as he posted. There is no conspiracy against him. As for the SPAM, easy fix. He just didn't implement it. Please don't try to compare the occasional insults you feel happen here to what happened on his site. I guarantee the persons that posted those would never, ever reveal themselves in public. They are cowards of the highest order. Pricci's lack of forethought enabled them, and it is his fault as much as the posters.

[Grits]

We don't blame PA for the countless insults that appear here. Let's not be hypocritical about what's happening there.

Indulto, I agree with Mack and Cj. Did you read the posts there, each of them? The garbage, the common, disgusting filth, this person wrote?

This being made much more freightening to me, when I realized the poster was online, here, while posting there, as well--the moment I commented here, he directed his filth at me--there.

And you liken insults spoken here at PA to what you read on Mr.Pricci's site?

I don't think so, I think you're mistaken on this one. Things such as what was written there have never been spoken here.

This poster didn't write this filth using your name or your screename, you might not feel as kindly had he done so.

Every individual that owns a website understands the need for security, and for close monitoring. Mr.Pricci is surely aware of this and he either needs to close his columns to comments or find a more substantial means of monitoring his reader's contributions.

Maybe, as a woman, I'm kinda sheltered regarding what I've exposed myself to, but I'm sorry, I've never read anything publicly displayed on a website like I read earlier today. Or listened to it come out of anyone's mouth.

Its really unsettling to think this person may still be, here, online.

[OTM Al]

I emailed him directly as well. I considered posting something there, but couldn't when I felt like it and didn't feel it necessary later. Maybe I would if he replied personally to my email. He did not. I don't care if he did say he apologizes, I've heard enough empty ones in my day to know when I see one. The line I quoted makes it clear it's about him, not the reader. I have know this person to act in ways lacking integrity in the past and the cheap shots in his piece, ones he didn't even verify first hand!, prove this. He is a sportswriter in stage three (see above) and on the way down. He is not a good guy, not any more.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I really want to know where HANA stands on this Pricci matter?

[Indulto]

Indulto, I agree with Mack and Cj. Did you read the posts there, each of them? The garbage, the common, disgusting filth, this person wrote?

This being made much more freightening to me, when I realized the poster was online, here, while posting there, as well--the moment I commented here, he directed his filth at me--there.

And you liken insults spoken here at PA to what you read on Mr.Pricci's site?

I don't think so, I think you're mistaken on this one. Things such as what was written there have never been spoken here.

This poster didn't write this filth using your name or your screename, you might not feel as kindly had he done so.

Every individual that owns a website understands the need for security, and for close monitoring. Mr.Pricci is surely aware of this and he either needs to close his columns to comments or find a more substantial means of monitoring his reader's contributions.

Maybe, as a woman, I'm kinda sheltered regarding what I've exposed myself to, but I'm sorry, I've never read anything publicly displayed on a website like I read earlier today. Or listened to it come out of anyone's mouth.

Its really unsettling to think this person may still be, here, online.
Grits,
Thanks to cj's post alerting PA readers to the situation, I did see the offending posts. I agree that they were vile and disgusting and need to be prevented. I felt very badly for those who were impersonated, especially you. I don't feel kindly at all toward the perpetrator(s), and I hope Mr. Pricci takes the appropriate steps to prevent such travesties in the future,

I guess very little shocks me any more. I've received PMs and emails that I found even more personally offensive than those at HRI, but life goes on. I particularly detest the ethnic slurs, specific or implied. To Pricci's credit, he deleted those comments altogether, whereas his co-blogger, Mr. Zast, merely edits them out in his threads.

It's true that both Pricci and Zast are guilty of baiting their audiences this week. It backfired on both, and hopefully everybody involved or affected learned something. I'm not suggesting anybody ignore or condone what happened, but don't make it worse by overreacting and pointing fingers in all directions.

If cj and OA sent complaining emails, that sounds appropriate and worthwhile. I'd wait until he proved unwilling to deal with the situation before trashing him. I sincerely hope the justifiable distress this incident caused you does not continue to color your view of the HRI website and/or John Pricci.

[bigmack]

I really want to know where HANA stands on this Pricci matter?
What is Jeff, the United Nations? Why do you 'really need to know' where HANA stands on such nonsense?

[Saratoga_Mike]

What is Jeff, the United Nations? Why do you 'really need to know' where HANA stands on such nonsense?

I was being a smart-ass, which was obviously hard to tell. I agree with what you just said!

[OTM Al]

I was being a smart-ass, which was obviously hard to tell. I agree with what you just said!

Actually it is a valid question since he is listed as one of their advisors. That makes two of them that have engaged in disreputable public behavior that I know of.

[cj]

Actually it is a valid question since he is listed as one of their advisors. That makes two of them that have engaged in disreputable public behavior that I know of.

I hope he will be removed unless a sincere apology is issued.

[Grits]

Indulto, I'll earnestly try to not let it color my view, though, as I said, its not a site I've frequented often. And it was a bad experience, no doubt.

It's true that both Pricci and Zast are guilty of baiting their audiences this week. It backfired on both, and hopefully everybody involved or affected learned something.
You're wise in your observation here. What this tells me though--is that HRI might not be a place that has a great amount of appeal to me. All journalists attempt to keep us reading, there is a great amount of skill among those that are able to do so. Baiting is inadequate, and when used as one's primary direction, insulting. Still, this, as we know, this is not uncommon in today's media.

[bigmack]

Actually it is a valid question since he is listed as one of their advisors. That makes two of them that have engaged in disreputable public behavior that I know of.
Forgive my confusion but who are you referring to?

[PaceAdvantage]

I expected a bit more from you Stevie. You know what though, eventually, every cat shows their true spots.After his shot at me after the BC Classic, I expect nothing from Stevie.

[PaceAdvantage]

He picked a fight with me. He is a public figure and being open to criticism is part of the game, and that comment about Zenyatta is ridiculous.

This is a guy who has a Twitter account and blocks people? Do you think the NYRA would approve?I'm thinking of blocking your ridiculous self right this instant. I'm surprised you even have the balls to show yourself around here after you criticized my pick for the BC Classic...meanwhile, your posted top picks lost a gazillion dollars.

[PaceAdvantage]

PS. I wrote to Pricci and the HRI people months ago when someone was on there impersonating me. I didn't follow up to see if the comments were removed. They weren't anything like what I'm hearing was up there today, but they weren't my comments...my point being they've known about this impersonation business for quite some time...

In all honesty, you have to let this kind of stuff just roll off your back ...I've seen it all in 11 years running this joint. You make sure the powers that be are made aware, the offending comments are removed, and life goes on...the less attention paid to these sorts of things the better.

[Jasonm921]

I'm thinking of blocking your ridiculous self right this instant. I'm surprised you even have the balls to show yourself around here after you criticized my pick for the BC Classic...meanwhile, your posted top picks lost a gazillion dollars.

I think its ironic that a thread called "Famous Feuds" results in a massive feud. :lol: Can't we all just get along. We have Santa Anita on dirt :jump: and Gulfstream coming up in a few weeks. Be Happy. :)

[PaceAdvantage]

Like I said earlier, this stuff rolls off my back...no feud here...just find it funny is all...

[bigmack]

the less attention paid to these sorts of things the better.
Right after the public flogging. Name names and we'll be brief.

[PaceAdvantage]

This person was logged into the board in the last half hour. Can't do better than that as like much else, Pricci's time stamps are faulty.I'm not quite sure I follow what you are saying here...how do you know this?

[RXB]

I would disagree. Perfect setup and she didn't get it done, and make no mistake that setup was extreme.

Somewhat fast, but certainly not extreme. You want extreme, try the 2001 Ky Derby. That was extreme.

Nothing short of a cakewalk would've allowed any of the frontrunners to win. They lost because they weren't good enough. The pace increased the margins of their defeats, but nothing more. The first several finishers were all advantaged by the pace and the fact is that Blame and Zenyatta were just flat-out better than the others. They would've been the first two across the line even if the pace had been average.

[tucker6]

Somewhat fast, but certainly not extreme. You want extreme, try the 2001 Ky Derby. That was extreme.

Nothing short of a cakewalk would've allowed any of the frontrunners to win. They lost because they weren't good enough. The pace increased the margins of their defeats, but nothing more. The first several finishers were all advantaged by the pace and the fact is that Blame and Zenyatta were just flat-out better than the others. They would've been the first two across the line even if the pace had been average.I don't know how you can say that. If the pace slows, the reserves for each horse goes up. That means it's a sprint to the finish, where the "best" in the field is a crap shoot based on where the sprint starts and who is ahead of whom and by how much. A fast pace will separate the wheat from the chafe. That fast pace helped make Zenyatta and Blame look better than the others, which they are. However, in a different pace scenario, looking the best becomes less clear to me.

[OTM Al]

I'm not quite sure I follow what you are saying here...how do you know this?

Grits wrote her first response to this about a half hour before I logged on and saw it. I went to Mr. Pricci's site and the individual using people's screen names had already referenced that post. I wanted to use the time stamps to figure out the time period between the two so if it was a member, you or a moderator could see who was logged in during that period, but the time stamp on Mr Pricci's site didn't make any sense. Grit's post was something like 1:59 here and my next one was 2:30ish but the stamp on the other site was something like 3:43. Allowing that hours differ given time zones, the minutes were still out of range. So, since he was referencing Grit's post the most reasonable assumption was that the time stamp over there wasn't working right as I'm pretty sure it's fine here.

Just checked and it's posts 65 and 66 here I'm referring to

[cj]

Somewhat fast, but certainly not extreme. You want extreme, try the 2001 Ky Derby. That was extreme.



Again, I would disagree. The track was much faster for that Derby...note the final time. Both were extreme. I did pace figures at the 1m call for 10f races back then, so I really can't compare them unfortunately.

[cj]

Grits wrote her first response to this about a half hour before I logged on and saw it. I went to Mr. Pricci's site and the individual using people's screen names had already referenced that post. I wanted to use the time stamps to figure out the time period between the two so if it was a member, you or a moderator could see who was logged in during that period, but the time stamp on Mr Pricci's site didn't make any sense. Grit's post was something like 1:59 here and my next one was 2:30ish but the stamp on the other site was something like 3:43. Allowing that hours differ given time zones, the minutes were still out of range. So, since he was referencing Grit's post the most reasonable assumption was that the time stamp over there wasn't working right as I'm pretty sure it's fine here.

Just checked and it's posts 65 and 66 here I'm referring to

But, you can read this board without being a member I do believe.

[cj]

Pricci was apparently so upset about this, and concerned, that he allowed it to happen again with someone posting about Andy Serling as "Beyer".

[cj]

Now they are going after OTM Al.

[cj]

By the way Indulto, you still want to defend this scumbag?

[Tom]

Pricci has zero credibility.
He is irresponsible.

[thaskalos]

Again, I would disagree. The track was much faster for that Derby...note the final time. Both were extreme. I did pace figures at the 1m call for 10f races back then, so I really can't compare them unfortunately.CJ...as you well know, the "pace" trip is not our only concern when evaluating a horse's performance; we also have to consider the individual horse's trip as well.

When you repeatedly state that Zenyatta had a "perfect" trip in the Classic - and that Blame had a more difficult one - I can only assume that you are kidding. You seem to enjoy poking fun at us Zenyatta "zealots"...remember that rubber "duckie"?

What was so difficult about Blame's trip...going through a narrow opening at the head of the stretch? $5,000 claimers do that every day, in every track in the country.

Zenyatta, on the other hand, put herself in an impossible position in the early going...trailing by as many as 24 lengths. How often does a horse come from that far back to win...ON DIRT? Didn't we agree on race day in the "War Room" that Zenyatta would not win if she stayed too far back?

Why is it so hard for you to admit that the horse was uncomfortable in the early going...and that it affected her performance? EVERYBODY saw it, and commented on it...and yet you persist that she "ran her usual race, and just plain got beat".

[bigmack]

They use 'aloud' when they mean allowed. :lol:

[cj]

CJ...as you well know, the "pace" trip is not our only concern when evaluating a horse's performance; we also have to consider the individual horse's trip as well.

When you repeatedly state that Zenyatta had a "perfect" trip in the Classic - and that Blame had a more difficult one - I can only assume that you are kidding. You seem to enjoy poking fun at us Zenyatta "zealots"...remember that rubber "duckie"?

What was so difficult about Blame's trip...going through a narrow opening at the head of the stretch? $5,000 claimers do that every day, in every track in the country.

Zenyatta, on the other hand, put herself in an impossible position in the early going...trailing by as many as 24 lengths. How often does a horse come from that far back to win...ON DIRT? Didn't we agree on race day in the "War Room" that Zenyatta would not win if she stayed too far back?

Why is it so hard for you to admit that the horse was so uncomfortable in the early going...and that it affected her performance? EVERYBODY saw it, and commented on it...and yet you persist that she "ran her usual race, and just plain got beat".

I don't think I said more difficult. It was basically the same, just one horse had more tactical speed. If they went any slower, she certainly wasn't going to beat Blame. If they went faster, well, they couldn't go any faster.

Why was her position impossible? You act like no horse has ever won from miles back after a hot pace. The way things played out, she may have been just fine if she lagged even farther back.

I don't think she was uncomfortable. She ran like she always runs. Why is it so hard for people to admit she isn't the superhorse many claimed? Like I've said before, the very thing I said would get her beat on dirt did, and now it is somehow an "excuse".

[RXB]

Again, I would disagree. The track was much faster for that Derby...note the final time. Both were extreme. I did pace figures at the 1m call for 10f races back then, so I really can't compare them unfortunately.

I do adjust for track speed; there is still no comparison. Also, the 4f in that '01 Derby was extraordinarily fast whereas it was not very much fast at all this year. Almost two full seconds of differential to 4f even with a track speed adjustment.

[cj]

I do adjust for track speed; there is still no comparison. Also, the 4f in that '01 Derby was extraordinarily fast whereas it was not very much fast at all this year. Almost two full seconds of differential to 4f even with a track speed adjustment.

As I said, I really can't compare and I'm not debating the pace was scorching that year. I will say, however, that it was for 3yos in May, so comparing to a G1 for older horses isn't apples to apples. It doesn't change that they went way too fast this year.

[OTM Al]

But, you can read this board without being a member I do believe.

Yeah, but worth a shot. He's obviously spent quite a bit of time here.

[RXB]

The pace of this year's Classic by my measurement was about .7 fast compared to the final time. About .4 fast compared to par. That is not "extreme." Slow it by .7, the frontrunners still have no chance of winning. They're not good enough. First Dude was the leader early and first across the wire of the early pack (8th, beaten 10 1/2) and he is not better than LAL under normal pace conditions.

The top seven finishers were all many lengths back at the 6f mark, so they all had their fair chances. Two of them ran off from the others because they were simply better.

[OTM Al]

Now they are going after OTM Al.

I am proud to be slandered among the company of people I think highly of.

[cj]

The pace of this year's Classic by my measurement was about .7 fast compared to the final time. About .4 fast compared to par. That is not "extreme." Slow it by .7, the frontrunners still have no chance of winning. They're not good enough. First Dude was the leader early and first across the wire of the early pack (8th, beaten 10 1/2) and he is not better than LAL under normal pace conditions.

The top seven finishers were all many lengths back at the 6f mark, so they all had their fair chances. Two of them ran off from the others because they were simply better.

Well, we probably use different models for determining fast and slow. It doesn't really matter. I've never said the front horses were likely to win. If the pace was on the slow side, LAL is probably much closer. Z would have a hard time beating him in that scenario. Fly Down had a brutal trip compared to the others.

[Bullet Plane]

The pace of this year's Classic by my measurement was about .7 fast compared to the final time. About .4 fast compared to par. That is not "extreme." Slow it by .7, the frontrunners still have no chance of winning. They're not good enough. First Dude was the leader early and first across the wire of the early pack (8th, beaten 10 1/2) and he is not better than LAL under normal pace conditions.

The top seven finishers were all many lengths back at the 6f mark, so they all had their fair chances. Two of them ran off from the others because they were simply better.

The problem with this type of deterministic logic is that horseracing has alot of variables. Here is few examples of why the race was fast pace.
In the Belmont Stakes, First Dude lost to Fly Down by a neck. Fly Down beat Lookin At Lucky by a neck in the Classic. But you say there was no pace pressure, and that Lookin at Lucky is ten lengths better than First Dude?
I don't get it.
Quality Road has ran 110 Beyer at a mile and a quarter on the dirt in the 09 JCGC. He finished a head behind Blame this year in the Whitney. Blame only ran a 111 in this years Classic.
These horses are not very far apart- talent wise. The set up of the race is what made the difference. Not just in this race, but in all races. There is an element of randomness and chance. This is true in all sports.
I don't think after a race is over that you can say, "There, I told you so!" It's like rolling dice, and a six comes up, and you say, "There I told you so, dummy!"
This is game of probability and odds. Even the jockeys dont know how they are going to break out of the gate. They are like pinballs coming out of the gates. There is fast pace, slow pace, and so on.
The pace of this race was rocket fast. Just look where the speed horses finished. These are horses that have either beaten or finished very close to the winners.

[Indulto]

By the way Indulto, you still want to defend this scumbag?The only individual the unfortunate term you like to throw around should apply to is the one actually defaming people here on PA. I still support the HRI bloggers.

Do you have any suggestions for how to deal with the problem other than 24/7 monitoring? Or are you planning to try and get the site closed through legal channels?

[Tom]

You don't see BS like that here.

Case closed.
It can be done. If you are willing.

Pricci has no credibility.

[cj]

The only individual the unfortunate term you like to throw around should apply to is the one actually defaming people here on PA. I still support the HRI bloggers.

Do you have any suggestions for how to deal with the problem other than 24/7 monitoring? Or are you planning to try and get the site closed through legal channels?

He has the power to stop those type of comments and did not. If you don't see it, you are as dense as he is. Of course I have suggestions, any idiot in 6th grade can set up a web site to stop things like that from happening without 24/7 monitoring. Why do you think it doesn't happen here, or other places? Just because you and Pricci don't know how doesn't make it acceptable.

What I do about it is none of your business. I can't believe you would even ask.

[PaceAdvantage]

Grits wrote her first response to this about a half hour before I logged on and saw it. I went to Mr. Pricci's site and the individual using people's screen names had already referenced that post. I wanted to use the time stamps to figure out the time period between the two so if it was a member, you or a moderator could see who was logged in during that period, but the time stamp on Mr Pricci's site didn't make any sense. Grit's post was something like 1:59 here and my next one was 2:30ish but the stamp on the other site was something like 3:43. Allowing that hours differ given time zones, the minutes were still out of range. So, since he was referencing Grit's post the most reasonable assumption was that the time stamp over there wasn't working right as I'm pretty sure it's fine here.

Just checked and it's posts 65 and 66 here I'm referring toOK...they were reading the board obviously...you don't have to be logged in to read the board...sorry for taking you literally...

[Indulto]

He has the power to stop those type of comments and did not. If you don't see it, you are as dense as he is. Of course I have suggestions, any idiot in 6th grade can set up a web site to stop things like that from happening without 24/7 monitoring. Why do you think it doesn't happen here, or other places? Just because you and Pricci don't know how doesn't make it acceptable.

What I do about it is none of your business. I can't believe you would even ask.Did you or did you not request a response from me? Exactly what do you find so irritating and inappropriate about that last question?

I may not have the technical knowledge to confirm or refute your assertion that it is a simple task to solve the problem, but if it were, I think it would have been done already.

[RXB]

In the Belmont Stakes, First Dude lost to Fly Down by a neck. Fly Down beat Lookin At Lucky by a neck in the Classic. But you say there was no pace pressure, and that Lookin at Lucky is ten lengths better than First Dude?


Show me where I said there was "no pace pressure."

Don't twist my words.

[cj]

Did you or did you not request a response from me? Exactly what do you find so irritating and inappropriate about that last question?

I may not have the technical knowledge to confirm or refute your assertion that it is a simple task to solve the problem, but if it were, I think it would have been done already.

Well, you are wrong. It is simple. After yesterday it was obviously needed.

You ask a lot of personal questions that are none of your business. You go way too far, especially for an anonymous poster. Your defense of Pricci is ridiculous.

[PaceAdvantage]

Your defense of Pricci is ridiculous.He loves to defend certain public figures...others...not so much.... :lol:

[Bullet Plane]

Show me where I said there was "no pace pressure."

Don't twist my words.
OK. I guess you agree with everything I said. Maybe I misunderstood your post. Sorry, if that was the case.

[RXB]

Well, we probably use different models for determining fast and slow. It doesn't really matter. I've never said the front horses were likely to win. If the pace was on the slow side, LAL is probably much closer. Z would have a hard time beating him in that scenario. Fly Down had a brutal trip compared to the others.

LAL was right with Blame around the track until the last 1/8th. Ability, not pace, is what separated those two.

The race actually set up well for those midpack runners-- a fast but not wicked pace with the frontrunners falling apart on the turn. Deep closers do better when the frontrunners hold a little longer before collapsing.

I agree that Fly Down's trip wasn't as good as those of Blame, Z, and LAL. I wouldn't say it was brutal but he definitely would've been nearer with a little better racing luck.

[OTM Al]

OK...they were reading the board obviously...you don't have to be logged in to read the board...sorry for taking you literally...

I wasn't clear either. Of course I also assumed this guy did have an account here as he clearly is an avid reader. People as dumb as this guy is tend to leave traces and identify themselves in ways that are easy to find. Figured it might make it a little easier to figure out who he is for you.

[PhantomOnTour]

I read the posts by the supposed PA members and they are despicably nasty. There is no defense in letting these things get through, and less than no defense in letting them stay up. Heck, I read them this morning so they are still there. EVERY site that accepts input from it's members HAS TO HAVE some regulation, period. That site has none.

Found it odd that there are posts from an OTMAL and an OTM AL, one with a space and one without. The imposter only had to change that little thing to get on(?)...as our, the original, OTM AL is most likely already registered there. I could be wrong...

[RXB]

OK. I guess you agree with everything I said. Maybe I misunderstood your post. Sorry, if that was the case.

No, I don't agree with everything you said.

Taking the phrase "moderately fast" and turning it into "no pace pressure" and then claiming it was a just a misunderstanding, seems a little disingenuous.

CJ and I are not in agreement on a few points in this thread but he and I can have a sensible discussion.

[Indulto]

He loves to defend certain public figures...others...not so much.... :lol:Some public figures deserve my support and some don't.;)

[PaceAdvantage]

Some public figures deserve my support and some don't.;)Would love to see that decision matrix...

[andymays]

Looks like it's down for good. Finally.

[cj]

Some public figures deserve my support and some don't.;)

Indulto, defender of idiots.

[cj]

Looks like it's down for good. Finally.

I suspect it will be back, modified.

Anyone find it odd NOBODY advertises there? The top banner has been "for sale" for a while now.

[Indulto]

Well, you are wrong. It is simple. After yesterday it was obviously needed.

You ask a lot of personal questions that are none of your business. You go way too far, especially for an anonymous poster. Your defense of Pricci is ridiculous.I didn't realize you were actually contemplating legal action when I asked that question as a worst case scenario solution. I understand why you're taking this so personally, but lashing out doesn't accomplish very much.Indulto, defender of idiots.Ouch! ;)

[cj]

I didn't realize you were actually contemplating legal action when I asked that question as a worst case scenario solution. I understand why you're taking this so personally, but lashing out doesn't accomplish very much.

What? How did you infer this? I just said it is none of your business, and it isn't.

[PaceAdvantage]

I didn't realize you were actually contemplating legal action when I asked that question as a worst case scenario solution. I understand why you're taking this so personally, but lashing out doesn't accomplish very much.Ouch! ;)Seriously, why do you seem to get so involved in threads that have absolutely nothing to do with you?

When did anyone claim to be contemplating legal action? You have grown such a smarmy way about you...it's difficult to take these days...

[Indulto]

What? How did you infer this? I just said it is none of your business, and it isn't.Why else would you regard it as such an intrusion?

[PaceAdvantage]

Why else would you regard it as such an intrusion?Why do you seem to care so much? Funny...I don't recall anyone impersonating you on the HRI site...hmmmmmm..... :lol:

Of course, I could be wrong, as I never got to see what was written... :( :lol:

[cj]

Why else would you regard it as such an intrusion?

Because it is none of your business. You ask because you like to start trouble.

[PaceAdvantage]

Uh oh...it's the famous PA/CJ tag team in action... :lol:

[cj]

Uh oh...it's the famous PA/CJ tag team in action... :lol:

I have you on ignore. :)

[Grits]

Seriously, why do you seem to get so involved in threads that have absolutely nothing to do with you?

When did anyone claim to be contemplating legal action? You have grown such a smarmy way about you...it's difficult to take these days...

Indulto, as much as I respect your posts--you're making mistake after mistake in this thread--aside from putting words into other's mouthes, you're promoting the business of tolerance and understanding towards HRI. C'mon now, at some point, you give it up. One afternoon of scum was enough, less than 24 hours later the stuff begins again. Yet, you're still going to bat for these guys???

NO. This is unnacceptable, and if their server or webmaster has one neuron firing he (or they) will realize this and drop them if the don't straighten this mess out TODAY.

I find you oddly supportive of these guys given what has transpired at their site for two days, and I'm sorry, but I don't get WHY you are being so, or HOW you can continue to defend them.

--Wish you'd back off, 'cause, bud, you ain't comin' off as the "voice of reason" here at all. I'm serious, its past time to stand down.

[Cardus]

You go, Grits.

[Indulto]

Indulto, as much as I respect your posts--you're making mistake after mistake in this thread--aside from putting words into other's mouthes, you're promoting the business of tolerance and understanding towards HRI. C'mon now, at some point, you give it up. One afternoon of scum was enough, less than 24 hours later the stuff begins again. Yet, you're still going to bat for these guys???

NO. This is unnacceptable, and if their server or webmaster has one neuron firing he (or they) will realize this and drop them if the don't straighten this mess out TODAY.

I find you oddly supportive of these guys given what has transpired at their site for two days, and I'm sorry, but I don't get WHY you are being so, or HOW you can continue to defend them.

--Wish you'd back off, 'cause, bud, you ain't comin' off as the "voice of reason" here at all. I'm serious, its past time to stand down.Thanks for your concern, Grits. I'll take your advice.

[Grits]

You go, Grits.

Cardus, honey, I'm being good with this one, you just don't know. LOLOL

Twelve years ago, I had one of my employees, a single mom with 2 teenage daughters, arrested and jailed on--the day before Christmas Eve--
THAT'S LEGAL ACTION. And the well planned kind.:lol:

She embezzled money from me/from my business. I prosecuted her, she was given a suspended sentence and remained on probation for FIVE years.

Her girls wailed as she was handuffed and placed in the back of the police cruiser by detectives. I didn't sweat it one minute! Still don't.

Told ya, Southern women don't play, 'specially if you're messin' with our money.:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Cardus]

Cardus, honey, I'm being good with this one, you just don't know. LOLOL

Twelve years ago, I had one of my employees, a single mom with 2 teenage daughters, arrested and jailed on--the day before Christmas Eve--
THAT'S LEGAL ACTION. And the well planned kind.:lol:

She embezzled money from me/from my business. I prosecuted her, she was given a suspended sentence and remained on probation for FIVE years.

Her girls wailed as she was handuffed and placed in the back of the police cruiser by detectives. I didn't sweat it one minute! Still don't.

Told ya, Southern women don't play, 'specially if you're messin' with our money.:lol: :lol: :lol:

I would have more respect for you if you had it arranged for her to be arrested on Christmas Eve.

[Stevie Belmont]

My analysis made some people some money. OK. I have nothing to prove to you. And I could care less.

I mentioned a lot of horses that had the potential to run well and they did in their races.

You can say anything at all you want about them. I could care less.

I have more 1st time starter winners than years you have been alive.

And if you do ban me. I could care less.






I'm thinking of blocking your ridiculous self right this instant. I'm surprised you even have the balls to show yourself around here after you criticized my pick for the BC Classic...meanwhile, your posted top picks lost a gazillion dollars.

[bigmack]

And if you do ban me. I could care less.
Do you post over at the HRI site?

[Stevie Belmont]

I am not a regular poster there. 3 in my life.

I know where you are going, but I am not involved at all with any of that garbage. I am way above anything like that.

[PaceAdvantage]

My analysis made some people some money. OK. I have nothing to prove to you. And I could care less.

I mentioned a lot of horses that had the potential to run well and they did in their races.

You can say anything at all you want about them. I could care less.

I have more 1st time starter winners than years you have been alive.

And if you do ban me. I could care less.Always remember...you took the first shot. I've never given you crap for anything before, and you took the first shot...You'll get no apology from me.

[cj]

And if you do ban me. I could care less.

It is "couldn't care less". But you are right, you could care less, because we all know you do care.

[Saratoga_Mike]

It is "couldn't care less". But you are right, you could care less, because we all know you do care.

damn that's a pet peeve of mine, too.

[Stevie Belmont]

This has passed a while ago. When I posted last before this.

Yea. I took the first shot and it was a probably stupid thing to do. So I take that back. I should have not said that. Or, for that matter anything else.

There is no doubt that horse racing seems to have an impact on people more than other sports do.

I think this is where the nature of this comes out.















Always remember...you took the first shot. I've never given you crap for anything before, and you took the first shot...You'll get no apology from me.

[Stevie Belmont]

You wish I cared.

It is "couldn't care less". But you are right, you could care less, because we all know you do care.

[RXB]

damn that's a pet peeve of mine, too.

Irregardless of what you think... :)

[FenceBored]

To get back to the 'Famous Feuds,' I listened to the second hour of the November 2nd At the Races with Steve Byk show to see if there was anybody else Lenny Shulman could have had in mind other than Serling. Nope, but there was one bit that adds the necessary context to why Mr. Shulman had the reaction he did to Mr. Serling's points.

110210b.mp3 (http://thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/images/stories/audio/110210b.mp3) (starting at 51:37)
Steve Byk: In terms of the overall themes,I mean obviously we keep revisiting the Zenyatta story and the Goldikova story, for you Lenny what’ve you kinda been anticipating here beside the obvious?

Lenny Shulman: {Laughs} Well, I'm gonna have to claim that Zenyatta is it for me. Anybody who’s been at the last two Breeders’ Cups out in California, uh anybody who was fortunate enough to experience those two things live, I think you can’t help but look forward to, you know, what she is going to do next. And, you know, Mike Smith on that 60 Minutes show (which actually was a positive look at horseracing on network television (which I almost fainted as I was realizing that they weren’t going to talk about drugs or something)), uh, he kept intimating that you’re going to see something unbelievable, and I just wonder if he is going to show us those gears that he claims have never been seen before and whether he’s going to let her loose halfway up the backstretch and whether, you know, we’re going to see a “she’s moving like a tremendous machine” kind of moment here. So, I, that to me, really I hate to be obvious about it, but that to me is really going to the peak of this. Other than that I think the Mile is just gonna be an unbelievable race. I think those two things are, aahah, they’re going to be tough to top.


Here's Mr. Shulman, expecting the second coming of Secretariat, and then Mr. Serling comes on and says "no disrespect to Zenyatta," but Blind Luck is "the most impressive female to run in America this year." It's no wonder that Mr. Shulman's head started spinning like a top.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's amazing how far and how deep some bought into the Zenyatta mythology. But the quote above tells the story perfectly.

Otherwise levelheaded folks (I'm assuming here) proclaiming on a nationwide radio show that they believe what Mike Smith is telling them (forget for a moment how handicappers RARELY give much weight to what a jockey claims about a mount)...putting actual stock into the notion that Zenyatta had these heretofore unseen Pegasus-like talents lurking just beneath the surface, simply waiting for Mike Smith to "give her the word" and turn her into the second coming of Big Red...I just have to shake my head in amazement.

[tucker6]

It's amazing how far and how deep some bought into the Zenyatta mythology. But the quote above tells the story perfectly.

Otherwise levelheaded folks (I'm assuming here) proclaiming on a nationwide radio show that they believe what Mike Smith is telling them (forget for a moment how handicappers RARELY give much weight to what a jockey claims about a mount)...putting actual stock into the notion that Zenyatta had these heretofore unseen Pegasus-like talents lurking just beneath the surface, simply waiting for Mike Smith to "give her the word" and turn her into the second coming of Big Red...I just have to shake my head in amazement.You've just said it better than I have seen it said yet. I'm dumbfounded to see some of the Zenyatta worship. She's a great filly. End of story. No more, no less.

[PaceAdvantage]

You've just said it better than I have seen it said yet. I'm dumbfounded to see some of the Zenyatta worship. She's a great filly. End of story. No more, no less.Shulman and others like him ended up doing an incredible DISSERVICE to a mare who certainly DID NOT NEED that kind of hype.

They set themselves up for incredible disappointment when she lost, when in fact, they should have been celebrating what an accomplishment it was for her to come that close to winning a Grade 1 classic race on dirt against open company...which as we all know, is the pinnacle of American racing.

Instead, what they wanted was the next Secretariat or Seattle Slew. The reality of the situation (and the speed figures bear this out) is that while Blame is a very good horse, he would be in nobody's book of all-time greats. Maybe if they would have raced him next year, a different story could be told. We'll never know.

And that's the whole problem. That IS and WAS the problem with Zenyatta. They mired her on that synthetic track against field after field of absolute nothingness. Don't tell me how St Trinians was something special. She went off the favorite in the Santa Anita Handicap and got summarily destroyed.

So Zenyatta is stuck facing field after field of second and third rate horses all year long, when she could have been building an actual foundation to place her amongst the greatest of all time. But her connections, incredibly, decided to go all-in on just one race, a race in which she lost. And that's it. Over. Done. Time to retire.

Why should I be surprised that in a dysfunctional sport such as Thoroughbred horse racing, the biggest and brightest star to come along in quite some time would be campaigned in an equally dysfunctional manner?

[tucker6]

Shulman and others like him ended up doing an incredible DISSERVICE to a mare who certainly DID NOT NEED that kind of hype.

They set themselves up for incredible disappointment when she lost, when in fact, they should have been celebrating what an accomplishment it was for her to come that close to winning a Grade 1 classic race on dirt against open company...which as we all know, is the pinnacle of American racing.

Instead, what they wanted was the next Secretariat or Seattle Slew. The reality of the situation (and the speed figures bear this out) is that while Blame is a very good horse, he would be in nobody's book of all-time greats. Maybe if they would have raced him next year, a different story could be told. We'll never know.

And that's the whole problem. That IS and WAS the problem with Zenyatta. They mired her on that synthetic track against field after field of absolute nothingness. Don't tell me how St Trinians was something special. She went off the favorite in the Santa Anita Handicap and got summarily destroyed.

So Zenyatta is stuck facing field after field of second and third rate horses all year long, when she could have been building an actual foundation to place her amongst the greatest of all time. But her connections, incredibly, decided to go all-in on just one race, a race in which she lost. And that's it. Over. Done. Time to retire.

Why should I be surprised that in a dysfunctional sport such as Thoroughbred horse racing, the biggest and brightest star to come along in quite some time would be campaigned in an equally dysfunctional manner?
I'm just trying to understand why they're doing it. I'll give them all credit for being well read about the business. So, if we have intelligent horse people making irrational statements, there must be something else going on. Is it an anti-Eastern bias? Pro-synthetic stance? Anti-Jackson? Pro-Moss? Nothing in Zenyatta's career even remotely suggested that she was breathing the same rarified air as Secretariat. So why did a bunch of smart people intimate it?

[Relwob Owner]

I'm just trying to understand why they're doing it. I'll give them all credit for being well read about the business. So, if we have intelligent horse people making irrational statements, there must be something else going on. Is it an anti-Eastern bias? Pro-synthetic stance? Anti-Jackson? Pro-Moss? Nothing in Zenyatta's career even remotely suggested that she was breathing the same rarified air as Secretariat. So why did a bunch of smart people intimate it?


All good questions.....with no Triple crown winners in a long time and many good horses retiring early, one theory may be that some racing people wanted a good story so badly that they took a decent one, put the blinders on, added a bunch of hyperbole and tried to make it happen.....


I am with you in that it is just amazing how logic went out the window with Zenyatta to the point that I honestly just ended up rooting against her.....well, that may have been because I subjected myself to TVG's coverage(I normally like TVG) which was enough to make me want to jump off of my roof....

[Grits]

Two words Tucker, the same two words its been about all along . . . . . .

The streak.

It was always all about the wins. And the writers, unknowingly, lost sight of the quality, choosing instead to focus on and celebrate, the quantity.

[tucker6]

Relwob and Grits,

Thanks, and I hear you, but why are they still hanging onto the story?? Do they honestly believe they can resurrect her greatness with a HOY award?? I can say with certainty that when the next "great" comes running along, we'll all know it without the need for a horse writer to tell us.

[Stillriledup]

Shulman and others like him ended up doing an incredible DISSERVICE to a mare who certainly DID NOT NEED that kind of hype.

They set themselves up for incredible disappointment when she lost, when in fact, they should have been celebrating what an accomplishment it was for her to come that close to winning a Grade 1 classic race on dirt against open company...which as we all know, is the pinnacle of American racing.

Instead, what they wanted was the next Secretariat or Seattle Slew. The reality of the situation (and the speed figures bear this out) is that while Blame is a very good horse, he would be in nobody's book of all-time greats. Maybe if they would have raced him next year, a different story could be told. We'll never know.

And that's the whole problem. That IS and WAS the problem with Zenyatta. They mired her on that synthetic track against field after field of absolute nothingness. Don't tell me how St Trinians was something special. She went off the favorite in the Santa Anita Handicap and got summarily destroyed.

So Zenyatta is stuck facing field after field of second and third rate horses all year long, when she could have been building an actual foundation to place her amongst the greatest of all time. But her connections, incredibly, decided to go all-in on just one race, a race in which she lost. And that's it. Over. Done. Time to retire.

Why should I be surprised that in a dysfunctional sport such as Thoroughbred horse racing, the biggest and brightest star to come along in quite some time would be campaigned in an equally dysfunctional manner?

But, here's the thing that you're forgetting. If Z was campaigned in a 'non dysfunctional manner' (or, campaigned by you) she would have been tossed to the wolves much too often, she wouldnt have been 19 for 19, she would have just been 'another pretty good horse with more wins than losses', and she would have been already retired, without much fanfare.

We all wanted Z to travel the globe and take on the best of the best all the time. We all wanted her to race against Rachel at some point. We all wanted her to race in the signature races at SA, Hol and DMR and she didnt race in any of them. I think because she had this type of 'management' we were able to handcraft a horse who won 19 races in a row. Racing benefitted greatly by this type of management, she got on 60 minutes, she got HUGE publicity, she turned non fans into fans of the sport. She did something that very few horses do, she turned non fans into fans.

Whether she faced tomato cans or great horses, its still very hard to win 19 races in a row at a high level (a higher level than Peppers Pride for sure). Somehow she won the BC Classic last year and almost won it this year. Forgetting about all her other 18 races, she ran twice in the best and biggest race America has to offer and she has one win and one nose loss. Not too shabby.

If you take all her other 18 races out of the equasion and hypothetically say she had 2 lifetime starts in the BC Classic 2 years in a row, she would be held in a much higher regard than she is now. So, in a way, she's not only not getting credit for the other 18, she's actually being penalized for it because she would be getting more credit now if her lifetime boxscore was 2- 1 1 0

I know what your point is and its valid, but most of your point is to try and talk to the people who overrated her to begin with. Your position is to try and convince those people that they were wrong about Z and she wasn't as good as THEY thought she was.

IN the end, there are 3 camps of people in the horse racing world. One camp is overrating Z, one camp is underrating Z and the last camp is rating her perfectly right. She is what she is, nothing more, nothing less.

If you toss out her previous 19 starts and you just go on her last lifetime race, she was sensational and lost a 5 million dollar race by a nose while charging hard against the best the world had to offer. That makes her pretty darned good.

Does it make her horse of the year? Some might argue that she was better than Blame in that loss, she was by him after the wire and she would be 3-5 again if they both met in the Clark handicap in a similar field in the upcoming weeks.

My logic as to why she should be HOY is this. If she had WON the race by a nose, she would be a tremendous landslide HOY winner. If that's true, and it is, than why should 6 inches change a huge runaway HOY winner into a loser? Is 6 inches that meaningful? I dont think so, i dont put that much stock in 6 inches in a horse race, if she was destined to be one of the most dominant HOY votegetters in history with a nose win, i dont think her being 6 inches slower should make all that much of a difference.

[Relwob Owner]

But, here's the thing that you're forgetting. If Z was campaigned in a 'non dysfunctional manner' (or, campaigned by you) she would have been tossed to the wolves much too often, she wouldnt have been 19 for 19, she would have just been 'another pretty good horse with more wins than losses', and she would have been already retired, without much fanfare.

We all wanted Z to travel the globe and take on the best of the best all the time. We all wanted her to race against Rachel at some point. We all wanted her to race in the signature races at SA, Hol and DMR and she didnt race in any of them. I think because she had this type of 'management' we were able to handcraft a horse who won 19 races in a row. Racing benefitted greatly by this type of management, she got on 60 minutes, she got HUGE publicity, she turned non fans into fans of the sport. She did something that very few horses do, she turned non fans into fans.

Whether she faced tomato cans or great horses, its still very hard to win 19 races in a row at a high level (a higher level than Peppers Pride for sure). Somehow she won the BC Classic last year and almost won it this year. Forgetting about all her other 18 races, she ran twice in the best and biggest race America has to offer and she has one win and one nose loss. Not too shabby.

If you take all her other 18 races out of the equasion and hypothetically say she had 2 lifetime starts in the BC Classic 2 years in a row, she would be held in a much higher regard than she is now. So, in a way, she's not only not getting credit for the other 18, she's actually being penalized for it because she would be getting more credit now if her lifetime boxscore was 2- 1 1 0

I know what your point is and its valid, but most of your point is to try and talk to the people who overrated her to begin with. Your position is to try and convince those people that they were wrong about Z and she wasn't as good as THEY thought she was.

IN the end, there are 3 camps of people in the horse racing world. One camp is overrating Z, one camp is underrating Z and the last camp is rating her perfectly right. She is what she is, nothing more, nothing less.

If you toss out her previous 19 starts and you just go on her last lifetime race, she was sensational and lost a 5 million dollar race by a nose while charging hard against the best the world had to offer. That makes her pretty darned good.

Does it make her horse of the year? Some might argue that she was better than Blame in that loss, she was by him after the wire and she would be 3-5 again if they both met in the Clark handicap in a similar field in the upcoming weeks.

My logic as to why she should be HOY is this. If she had WON the race by a nose, she would be a tremendous landslide HOY winner. If that's true, and it is, than why should 6 inches change a huge runaway HOY winner into a loser? Is 6 inches that meaningful? I dont think so, i dont put that much stock in 6 inches in a horse race, if she was destined to be one of the most dominant HOY votegetters in history with a nose win, i dont think her being 6 inches slower should make all that much of a difference.


In this case, yes-6 inches is that meaningful.........if you are still searching for meaning, simply look to the rest of her campaign, which was as cupcake as you could get and featured no races against boys, even though there were a ton of opportunities(HGC and Pacific Classic)

[bigmack]

Speakin' of Byk, 51 on 11/20/10. Hey, that's t'day.

From Colgate University to Procter & Gamble? That's just downright weird.

Hap, hap.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/51.jpg

[Stillriledup]

In this case, yes-6 inches is that meaningful.........if you are still searching for meaning, simply look to the rest of her campaign, which was as cupcake as you could get and featured no races against boys, even though there were a ton of opportunities(HGC and Pacific Classic)

But my point is that going INTO the race, Z and Blame weren't equal in the voting. You're saying they were equal heading INTO the race, that's not the case.

[Relwob Owner]

But my point is that going INTO the race, Z and Blame weren't equal in the voting. You're saying they were equal heading INTO the race, that's not the case.


What voting? By whom? If anything, I would say Blame was AHEAD going in because he had won Grade 1's against boys and Zenyatta had yet to face boys all year and had only run on her preferred surface......also who cares if Zenyatta was ahead-she got beat.

We agree to disagree and this topic has been done to death.....she was a great mare who had connections who didnt test her and fans that overrated her and those two things didnt help her legacy a bit IMO.

[PaceAdvantage]

But, here's the thing that you're forgetting. If Z was campaigned in a 'non dysfunctional manner' (or, campaigned by you) she would have been tossed to the wolves much too oftenOnly two sentences into your reply, and you're wrong already. I would not have tossed her to the wolves much too often. I have never stated she should have danced every dance against Grade 1 males.

So, since you're already dead-wrong about me two sentences into your reply, I hesitate to read the rest...

[PaceAdvantage]

If she had WON the race by a nose, she would be a tremendous landslide HOY winner.And if that turned out to be reality (and I'm not disputing that it would), it would also serve to further illustrate the dysfunction of this sport...that Zenyatta could get away with facing cream puffs all year long except one lone race at the end, and go on to win HOTY in a landslide.

In your above example, it shouldn't be a landslide. But because we are dysfunctional, it would be...

[PaceAdvantage]

What voting? By whom? If anything, I would say Blame was AHEAD going in because he had won Grade 1's against boys and Zenyatta had yet to face boys all year and had only run on her preferred surface......also who cares if Zenyatta was ahead-she got beat.To be fair, Blame was running on his preferred surface, as are most horses. Not sure how this counts much towards your argument.

[Relwob Owner]

To be fair, Blame was running on his preferred surface, as are most horses. Not sure how this counts much towards your argument.


I think that the 2009 BC showed just how much of an effect her running on synthetics had in her favor in terms of how much she liked it and others didnt care for it....that gave her an edge. I dont see that edge being had by Blame in his races because most of the horses he faced were used to the dirt.

[Bullet Plane]

This article in the bloodhorse summed the situation up perfectly with respect to the HOTY.

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/breeders-cup-chat/archive/2010/11/08/horse-of-the-year-is-simple-blame.aspx

It's pretty much a no-brainer.

[Charlie D]

Like last year, if you take the emotion out of it there is really no other way to go. It's really not even that close.

Horse of the Year is Simple: Blame




The blogger is spot on.

[thaskalos]

Blame should win Horse of the Year...and it should be by a decent margin. Zenyatta had several close finishes go her way...this time it worked out different.

That's horseracing...

[bigmack]

Like last year, if you take the emotion out of it there is really no other way to go. It's really not even that close.
Horse of the Year is Simple: Blame
Can we all let out a collective yawn and get it over with? Give Blame his hohum horse of the year. As a footnote we can toss in PA's quote:
The reality of the situation (and the speed figures bear this out) is that while Blame is a very good horse, he would be in nobody's book of all-time greats.
In the grand scheme of things, what does it matter?

You want a special place for Z? Drink in the media and dial up YouTube.

You want to give Blame his due? He gets HOY. Ask yourself in a year or two what difference it makes.

[Cardus]

Shulman and others like him ended up doing an incredible DISSERVICE to a mare who certainly DID NOT NEED that kind of hype.

They set themselves up for incredible disappointment when she lost, when in fact, they should have been celebrating what an accomplishment it was for her to come that close to winning a Grade 1 classic race on dirt against open company...which as we all know, is the pinnacle of American racing.

Instead, what they wanted was the next Secretariat or Seattle Slew. The reality of the situation (and the speed figures bear this out) is that while Blame is a very good horse, he would be in nobody's book of all-time greats. Maybe if they would have raced him next year, a different story could be told. We'll never know.

And that's the whole problem. That IS and WAS the problem with Zenyatta. They mired her on that synthetic track against field after field of absolute nothingness. Don't tell me how St Trinians was something special. She went off the favorite in the Santa Anita Handicap and got summarily destroyed.

So Zenyatta is stuck facing field after field of second and third rate horses all year long, when she could have been building an actual foundation to place her amongst the greatest of all time. But her connections, incredibly, decided to go all-in on just one race, a race in which she lost. And that's it. Over. Done. Time to retire.

Why should I be surprised that in a dysfunctional sport such as Thoroughbred horse racing, the biggest and brightest star to come along in quite some time would be campaigned in an equally dysfunctional manner?

Though her connections are not the only ones to go this route, it seemed more pronounced with them than it seemed with other connections across the years.

[Tom]

But her connections, incredibly, decided to go all-in on just one race, a race in which she lost. And that's it. Over. Done. Time to retire.

So, Uncle Mo will be the Zenyatta of 2011?
Two starts between now and the Derby.
I can only imagine the outrage. AFLACK!

BTW, when Do I get check that will make my life so much better when Blames wins HOY?

I mean, all this huffing and puffing about it, there must some value to us all, right? :rolleyes:

I'll go with the BRIS poll - where actual fans vote. I could really give a hoot what turf writers and other assorted insiders think. It's a lot like movie critics......who the hell cares what they like? You have your own mind.

[Tom]

Ask yourself in a year or two what difference it makes.

How about in a day or two?:D

[andymays]

We all know that this column should have been deleted and there should have been promt action whenever a vile post was made. There is no excuse for not updating the website and I'm sure HRI has lost a bunch of readers.

Just remember that dozens of articles in favor of Horseplayers have come from this site including a bunch on California racing calling out the CHRB and asking for a return to dirt surfaces.

As far as Shulman goes it's the same thing. He's another guy who consistently comes down on the side of Horseplayers. I bet Blame and I think Blame should be HOY but it seems like most of the people who have seen the Z show live at both Breeders Cups are true believers. Winning one Classic and coming close in another aint too bad. I'm pretty sure he voted for Rachel last year.

I guess we'll all remember how nuts this whole debate has gotten over the last couple of years as much as who won the awards.

[bigmack]

We all know that this column should have been deleted and there should have been promt action whenever a vile post was made. There is no excuse for not updating the website and I'm sure HRI has lost a bunch of readers.
Well, well, well. If it isn't Mr. Post Every Article I Come Across.

Talk about Blame. :rolleyes:

i kid.

[andymays]

Well, well, well. If it isn't Mr. Post Every Article I Come Across.

Talk about Blame. :rolleyes:

i kid.

:lol:

I'm cracking up because I do feel a little guilty for putting up the thread in hindsight. I had no way of knowing it would have contributed to the insansity but Wow. I've probably been posting on horse racing message boards for three years now and I've never seen anything close to the vile stuff posted on HRI the last couple of days.

[NJ Stinks]

If you toss out her previous 19 starts and you just go on her last lifetime race, she was sensational and lost a 5 million dollar race by a nose while charging hard against the best the world had to offer. That makes her pretty darned good.



The best horses in the world run on grass. The BC Classic was American dirt championship race.

Nothing wrong with that, of course.

[gm10]

You obviously don't know squat about horseracing. I don't know what you are smoking in his home. But I can guess.

The man said that Rachel Alexandra was a serious overlay at 1/9 for the Personal Ensign. Kinda says it all.

[gm10]

I would disagree. Perfect setup and she didn't get it done, and make no mistake that setup was extreme.

Since your top pick for that race was Quality Road (who finished last), I would have to agree with the statement that Thaskalos' estimate was more accurate than yours.

[RXB]

Here are the splits from the Classic:

23.24
23.90
23.87
26.11 :eek:
25.16

That is an ideal shape for a midpack closer, not a deep closer. If the last two fractions were reversed, then it would favour the deep closer. But when the speed horses back up that drastically, that quickly, the first-run types can make their "move" into striking position without really having to use much energy.

The race went from somewhat fast to somewhat slow in the fourth quarter alone. The final fraction is legit by Classic standards.

[cj]

Since your top pick for that race was Quality Road (who finished last), I would have to agree with the statement that Thaskalos' estimate was more accurate than yours.

My estimate of Zenyatta was more accurate. Again, under what other pace scenario was she winning that race?

RXB, the next to last quarter is run around a turn.

[Cardus]

I think that the 2009 BC showed just how much of an effect her running on synthetics had in her favor in terms of how much she liked it and others didnt care for it....that gave her an edge. I dont see that edge being had by Blame in his races because most of the horses he faced were used to the dirt.

Agreed on the 2009 Breeders' Cup Classic.

And those who are giving her bonus points for running well "on Blame's home court" conveniently overlook that she ran on her "home court" last year.

[gm10]

My estimate of Zenyatta was more accurate. Again, under what other pace scenario was she winning that race?


Under what pace scenario was Quality Road going to win the race, then?

Anyways, your 'estimate' was that the pace would be moderate at best and that she would not be able to overcome that. That doesn't look very accurate to me, certainly not compared to giving Zenyatta 36% chance of winning which in the end was probably extremely accurate. He also tipped Fly Down to run well, to me it seems like he had a pretty good handle on the race overall.

[cj]

Under what pace scenario was Quality Road going to win the race, then?

Anyways, your 'estimate' was that the pace would be moderate at best and that she would not be able to overcome that. That doesn't look very accurate to me, certainly not compared to giving Zenyatta 36% chance of winning which in the end was probably extremely accurate. He also tipped Fly Down to run well, to me it seems like he had a pretty good handle on the race overall.

I was wrong about Quality Road, I've admitted as much. Let us not pretend he was at his best that day, he was dreadful, but whatever. I wish others could be as forthcoming about Zenyatta. Dream trip, still lost, and a massive underlay to boot...and she ran her best race. Funny you dwell on one of my losers that weekend.

[gm10]

I was wrong about Quality Road, I've admitted as much. Let us not pretend he was at his best that day, he was dreadful, but whatever. I wish others could be as forthcoming about Zenyatta. Dream trip, still lost, and a massive underlay to boot...and she ran her best race. Funny you dwell on one of my losers that weekend.

I do not dwell, it was you who said that your estimate of Zenyatta's chance's was more accurate. In my view, that is not the case. For what it's worth, I think that the 36% chance of winning is about spot on.

[cj]

I do not dwell, it was you who said that your estimate of Zenyatta's chance's was more accurate. In my view, that is not the case. For what it's worth, I think that the 36% chance of winning is about spot on.

Yeah, you said that already. We disagree, what else is new. She lost, life goes on.

[RXB]

My estimate of Zenyatta was more accurate. Again, under what other pace scenario was she winning that race?

RXB, the next to last quarter is run around a turn.

The Churchill par for the fourth quarter in 10f races is still slightly faster than the final quarter par. The last quarter-mile of most dirt races is primarily straightaway, whereas the preceding quarter is usually more on the turn, yet it's pretty much universal that the final quarter par is slower than the penultimate one due to deceleration.

As I said, flip-flop those last two fractions and now you've got the "perfect pace setup" that people are claiming for Zenyatta, because then the last fraction would've been quite weak and that's what a deep closer wants. But as it actually happened, it was better for midpackers like Blame and LAL. They were making their moves to the lead during what was by far the weakest part of the race. That's the scenario that is most favourable to any horse.

[Stillriledup]

What did Pricci say, i can' tseem to find this anywhere.

[PaceAdvantage]

The man said that Rachel Alexandra was a serious overlay at 1/9 for the Personal Ensign. Kinda says it all.No it doesn't. Or are you another of those rarities in life...perfect with every one of your prognostications?

[PaceAdvantage]

What did Pricci say, i can' tseem to find this anywhere.He didn't say anything. Go to sleep.

[Bullet Plane]

No it doesn't. Or are you another of those rarities in life...perfect with every one of your prognostications?

My question is why does the guy hate TLG so bad?

[Stillriledup]

He didn't say anything. Go to sleep.


Go to sleep? No need to be rude, i just went onto his site and found a blank page, enquiring minds want to know.

[Grits]

Go to sleep? No need to be rude, i just went onto his site and found a blank page, enquiring minds want to know.

Its been blank. Your enquiring mind's a day late and a dollar short, SRU. How 'bout let's try giving it up. Surely you have another topic you'd like to move forward with.

[PaceAdvantage]

Go to sleep? No need to be rude, i just went onto his site and found a blank page, enquiring minds want to know.I didn't think I was being rude. I thought I was being comical. Oh well.

[Stillriledup]

I didn't think I was being rude. I thought I was being comical. Oh well.

Next time add the smiley face so i can laugh WITH you!

[PaceAdvantage]

My question is why does the guy hate TLG so bad?Because TLG is not one to sugar-coat his opinion. People seem to much prefer it when analysts are mamby pambies who can't or won't take a firm stand on anything.

[Stillriledup]

Because TLG is not one to sugar-coat his opinion. People seem to much prefer it when analysts are mamby pambies who can't or won't take a firm stand on anything.


Mamby Pamby land, its not a fun place!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaFy0x_Uixo

[affirmedny]

his handle on this board is " the little guy"

Well it was when he used to post here......

[gm10]

No it doesn't. Or are you another of those rarities in life...perfect with every one of your prognostications?

Actually it does. This was a horse that was questionable over the distance and one that hadn't won at grade 1 level in nearly a year. Calling this an overlay at 1/9 is hilarious. Defending the guy who made it an overlay is a honorable but bold gesture.

[PaceAdvantage]

Actually it does. This was a horse that was questionable over the distance and one that hadn't won at grade 1 level in nearly a year. Calling this an overlay at 1/9 is hilarious. Defending the guy who made it an overlay is a honorable but bold gesture.I'm actually curious about one important thing...when and where did he state that RA was a "serious overlay at 1/9?"

[gm10]

I'm actually curious about one important thing...when and where did he state that RA was a "serious overlay at 1/9?"

Really you're curious? So you aren't going to write something like "he never used the word 'serious'" because frankly, that is a concern for me.

Anyway, it's your messageboard, I'm sure you'll find it in a matter of a few queries.

[PaceAdvantage]

Really you're curious? So you aren't going to write something like "he never used the word 'serious'" because frankly, that is a concern for me.

Anyway, it's your messageboard, I'm sure you'll find it in a matter of a few queries.First off, you're the king of the goof ball statements, so for you to call someone else out is hilarious.

And yes, I am curious. If you're so aware of this statement and where it resides, help a brother out and post the link.

[gm10]

First off, you're the king of the goof ball statements, so for you to call someone else out is hilarious.

And yes, I am curious. If you're so aware of this statement and where it resides, help a brother out and post the link.

Nah if you want to find it, look for it yourself, I'm busy this morning. It'll take you less than a minute. Just do a SELECT * FROM MESSAGES WHERE User='The Little Guy' AND message like '%overlay%'
if you're that curious.

[PaceAdvantage]

Glad I went ahead and looked. What he actually posted and what you claim he posted are a little different:

"1:9 feels like an overlay" which is what he actually wrote

ain't

"Rachel Alexandra is a serious overlay at 1/9 for the Personal Ensign" which is what you claimed he stated.

gm10 -- king of half-truths.

[gm10]

Glad I went ahead and looked. What he actually posted and what you claim he posted are a little different:

"1:9 feels like an overlay" which is what he actually wrote

ain't

"Rachel Alexandra is a serious overlay at 1/9 for the Personal Ensign" which is what you claimed he stated.

gm10 -- king of half-truths.

Haha I knew you were going to do that. Always focus on certain details in the hope that the big picture is lost.

Anyway, thanks for reminding us that Andy Serling, top handicapper, felt that RA was an overlay at 1/9. And God bless the mute button on my remote.

[PaceAdvantage]

Always focus on certain details in the hope that the big picture is lost.What big picture am I hoping will be lost? What grand conspiracy are you working on these days? :lol:

The big picture remains that Serling is one of the best, if not the best on-air handicappers going in racing at the moment. Show me another with more passion or dedication to the game here in the US?

If your mute button is on, that's your loss. I'd love to know for whom that mute button doesn't work.

[gm10]

What big picture am I hoping will be lost? What grand conspiracy are you working on these days? :lol:

The big picture remains that Serling is one of the best, if not the best on-air handicappers going in racing at the moment. Show me another with more passion or dedication to the game here in the US?

If your mute button is on, that's your loss. I'd love to know for whom that mute button doesn't work.

Yes he's an ace. They are lucky to have him. Those 1/9 overlays aren't that easy to spot.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes he's an ace. They are lucky to have him. Those 1/9 overlays aren't that easy to spot.Again, it must be nice to be perfect 100% of the time. How on Earth do you do it?

Why do you hate the man so? Are you such a disingenuous prick to all those you feel inferior to, or is it just follically challenged folks named Andy who make you act the part of the fool?

[gm10]

Again, it must be nice to be perfect 100% of the time. How on Earth do you do it?

Why do you hate the man so? Are you such a disingenuous prick to all those you feel inferior to, or is it just follically challenged folks named Andy who make you act the part of the fool?

Don't be silly. He was mentioned as 'one of the best handicappers' in the country, which I disagree with and my example clearly shows why. I am going to ignore the rest of your post, as I said I don't have time to play your little games this morning and it has nothing to do with my original post anyway.

[PaceAdvantage]

Don't be silly. He was mentioned as 'one of the best handicappers' in the country, which I disagree with and my example clearly shows why. I am going to ignore the rest of your post, as I said I don't have time to play your little games this morning and it has nothing to do with my original post anyway.Yet you have time to continue posting here, but no time for me and my "little games."

Whatever.

I think I'm making a very valid point. Bald guys named Andy will not be on your Christmas list, will they Mr. gm10? All I ask is why?

Name me a better on-air handicapper in the United States.

[gm10]

Yet you have time to continue posting here, but no time for me and my "little games."

Whatever.

I think I'm making a very valid point. Bald guys named Andy will not be on your Christmas list, will they Mr. gm10? All I ask is why?

Name me a better on-air handicapper in the United States.

You can't go wrong with Howard Hong.

[OTM Al]

You can't go wrong with Howard Hong.

You mean the renowned Kierkegaard scholar? Bad news, he died back in May...oh you mean the guy at Turf Paradise....I think if I was stuck at Turf Paradise I would wish I died back in May.

[andicap]

Howard Hong

You mean the renowned Kierkegaard scholar? Bad news, he died back in May...oh you mean the guy at Turf Paradise....I think if I was stuck at Turf Paradise I would wish I died back in May.

Actually that's the guy who fixed my last laptop. Great guy, cheap, but his Hartsdale, NY store moved and/or closed and now I can't find him. :confused:

;)

[OTM Al]

Monday afternoon and it looks like the column is gone for good. That's a good thing as frankly it was poor judgement to write it in the first place. In its place though is nothing, and that isn't such a good thing.

It reminds me of an article a former contributor to that site wrote the summer before last about the INS and back stretch workers at Saratoga. He didn't do the least bit of research on the article and assumed that the INS was coming after NYRA. He was completely wrong. When easily available documents were presented to him, showing that wasn't the case at all, he removed the article, though very sloppily so some traces still remained. He never apologized and never printed a retraction. Maybe some think that is unneeded as the offending article was removed. The problem was that by the time it was removed, it had been copied and quoted by several other sites and could still be read in its entirety elsewhere on the web. In this case this thread itself (and even this post) contains certain snipits of the story and thread, so it hasn't really just gone away.

Mr Pricci himself wrote that what happened this weekend was meant to "discredit the site". Without a real response or an appology to those who had their names smeared, he has done far more to discredit his site and himself than some whack job out in cyberspace did. Without acknowledging that his own article was inflamatory and abusive he has demonstrated what seems to be the modern standard of integrity in journalism: none.

I wrote him two emails personally. He didn't have the time to respond to either of them apparantly. No apologies, no retractions, just no response.

Mr. Pricci is listed as an advisor to HANA. I have no problem at this point saying that certain individuals involved with the group at the top level are one of the two reasons I will not join (no, I'm not talking about Bill (who I've met) or Dean or Jeff (who I haven't) who are good guys from all I've ever seen and don't ask who I'm talking about as I won't answer). I won't call for his resignation because I have no place to, but I do ask the many who are members if this is the kind of representation you want. I'd like the group to be strong as I think it can do good things, but having advisors who think they are above it all and show no integrity toward the players and fans, the very people they are supposed to be helping, does not help the cause.

Maybe he will prove me wrong by doing something. I doubt it, but if it happens I will certainly re-address what I've said here. Otherwise I'm done with the matter and with Mr. Pricci as well.

[Stillriledup]

Monday afternoon and it looks like the column is gone for good. That's a good thing as frankly it was poor judgement to write it in the first place. In its place though is nothing, and that isn't such a good thing.

It reminds me of an article a former contributor to that site wrote the summer before last about the INS and back stretch workers at Saratoga. He didn't do the least bit of research on the article and assumed that the INS was coming after NYRA. He was completely wrong. When easily available documents were presented to him, showing that wasn't the case at all, he removed the article, though very sloppily so some traces still remained. He never apologized and never printed a retraction. Maybe some think that is unneeded as the offending article was removed. The problem was that by the time it was removed, it had been copied and quoted by several other sites and could still be read in its entirety elsewhere on the web. In this case this thread itself (and even this post) contains certain snipits of the story and thread, so it hasn't really just gone away.

Mr Pricci himself wrote that what happened this weekend was meant to "discredit the site". Without a real response or an appology to those who had their names smeared, he has done far more to discredit his site and himself than some whack job out in cyberspace did. Without acknowledging that his own article was inflamatory and abusive he has demonstrated what seems to be the modern standard of integrity in journalism: none.

I wrote him two emails personally. He didn't have the time to respond to either of them apparantly. No apologies, no retractions, just no response.

Mr. Pricci is listed as an advisor to HANA. I have no problem at this point saying that certain individuals involved with the group at the top level are one of the two reasons I will not join (no, I'm not talking about Bill (who I've met) or Dean or Jeff (who I haven't) who are good guys from all I've ever seen and don't ask who I'm talking about as I won't answer). I won't call for his resignation because I have no place to, but I do ask the many who are members if this is the kind of representation you want. I'd like the group to be strong as I think it can do good things, but having advisors who think they are above it all and show no integrity toward the players and fans, the very people they are supposed to be helping, does not help the cause.

Maybe he will prove me wrong by doing something. I doubt it, but if it happens I will certainly re-address what I've said here. Otherwise I'm done with the matter and with Mr. Pricci as well.

Link please? I'd love to read what he wrote for myself.

[Tom]

Good post, Al. The pure filth that the pervert thought was funny showed clearly that he is some kind of mental defective. Attributing that crap to posters here was a slap in the face by Pricci, who has exhausted every ounce of credibility and integrity he might have once possessed.

Nothing posted at that site can be relied upon.

[gm10]

Good post, Al. The pure filth that the pervert thought was funny showed clearly that he is some kind of mental defective. Attributing that crap to posters here was a slap in the face by Pricci, who has exhausted every ounce of credibility and integrity he might have once possessed.

Nothing posted at that site can be relied upon.

what did he/they write?

[Tom]

Under the comments section, he/she/it posted using names of people here. and the comments were pretty vulgar, sexually and racially .

Typical 3rd grade stuff from a mental midget. Throw back to the old Yahoo days.

Not worth reading.

[gm10]

Under the comments section, he/she/it posted using names of people here. and the comments were pretty vulgar, sexually and racially .

Typical 3rd grade stuff from a mental midget. Throw back to the old Yahoo days.

Not worth reading.

ok thx

[Cardus]

Well done, OTM.

[Indulto]

Monday afternoon and it looks like the column is gone for good. That's a good thing as frankly it was poor judgement to write it in the first place. In its place though is nothing, and that isn't such a good thing.

It reminds me of an article a former contributor to that site wrote the summer before last about the INS and back stretch workers at Saratoga. He didn't do the least bit of research on the article and assumed that the INS was coming after NYRA. He was completely wrong. When easily available documents were presented to him, showing that wasn't the case at all, he removed the article, though very sloppily so some traces still remained. He never apologized and never printed a retraction. Maybe some think that is unneeded as the offending article was removed. The problem was that by the time it was removed, it had been copied and quoted by several other sites and could still be read in its entirety elsewhere on the web. In this case this thread itself (and even this post) contains certain snipits of the story and thread, so it hasn't really just gone away.

Mr Pricci himself wrote that what happened this weekend was meant to "discredit the site". Without a real response or an appology to those who had their names smeared, he has done far more to discredit his site and himself than some whack job out in cyberspace did. Without acknowledging that his own article was inflamatory and abusive he has demonstrated what seems to be the modern standard of integrity in journalism: none.

I wrote him two emails personally. He didn't have the time to respond to either of them apparantly. No apologies, no retractions, just no response.

Mr. Pricci is listed as an advisor to HANA. I have no problem at this point saying that certain individuals involved with the group at the top level are one of the two reasons I will not join (no, I'm not talking about Bill (who I've met) or Dean or Jeff (who I haven't) who are good guys from all I've ever seen and don't ask who I'm talking about as I won't answer). I won't call for his resignation because I have no place to, but I do ask the many who are members if this is the kind of representation you want. I'd like the group to be strong as I think it can do good things, but having advisors who think they are above it all and show no integrity toward the players and fans, the very people they are supposed to be helping, does not help the cause.

Maybe he will prove me wrong by doing something. I doubt it, but if it happens I will certainly re-address what I've said here. Otherwise I'm done with the matter and with Mr. Pricci as well.OA,
I’ve had only the greatest respect for your contributions here, but in this case your approach seems like something I might expect from a disciple of Oliver Cromwell and Joseph McCarthy rather than from a proven debunker of self-righteousness.

There is no doubt that some posters here were subjected to torment, if not slander, they should not have been. Perhaps legal action should be taken to establish exactly to what degree website owners are actually responsible for content entered by their readers. Maybe this is the beginning of the end of anonymity in cyberspace. I hope not, but in this time of body searches at airports it is hard not to imagine every blog site requiring not only logins, but also credit verification like ADWs. The new Paulick site will supposedly create a “community” of posters, but I haven’t yet found any details regarding what information they will require, as they too have been the victims of impersonators.

To extend what IMO is your misguided prosecution of Mr. Pricci to HANA, as well, is simply irresponsible. Your desire to eliminate what you perceive to be inaccurate and undeserved criticism of things NYRA whenever and wherever it appears is admirable, and -- as it applies to articles written by Mr. Pricci -- I agree it should be pursued if you have evidence or even sentiment to the contrary. But to take him to task for the words of others is not what our traditions stand for. To brand all HANA members as a result of personal animus toward one of its members is unworthy of the person I have long held in high regard.

[bigmack]

To brand all HANA members as a result of personal animus toward one of its members is unworthy of the person I have long held in high regard.
Wait til andymays reads your article @ Equidaily and posts it here.

Round two. (Ding)

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/ALNW.png

[cj]

I simple apology from Mr. Pricci would have spoken volumes. The lack of one speaks even more.

[andymays]

Wait til andymays reads your article @ Equidaily and posts it here.

Round two. (Ding)

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/ALNW.png

I'm working on another famous feud. O'Neill versus Mulhall. ;) :lol:

Indulto versus OTM Al needs to ferment a little more. :D

[OTM Al]

To extend what IMO is your misguided prosecution of Mr. Pricci to HANA, as well, is simply irresponsible. Your desire to eliminate what you perceive to be inaccurate and undeserved criticism of things NYRA whenever and wherever it appears is admirable, and -- as it applies to articles written by Mr. Pricci -- I agree it should be pursued if you have evidence or even sentiment to the contrary. But to take him to task for the words of others is not what our traditions stand for. To brand all HANA members as a result of personal animus toward one of its members is unworthy of the person I have long held in high regard.


I was done with this but this stands to be answered. Where did I brand HANA members anything but people I held in high regard with the 3 I mentioned? I simply asked the membership if they wanted this guy representing them. That's for them to answer as he does not represent me. I am "represented" by enough seedy characters in NY State to voluntarily allow myself to be represented by Mr. Pricci in any way, shape or form.

What I am for is discrediting self serving blowhards in whatever walk of life I happen to encounter them in. He is responsible for whatever goes on on his site. He did not take that responsibility seriously resulting in the slander of several people I would like to think are my friends along with my wife. You've been told before to butt out of this one but you just can't, can you? It's clear where you stand.

The rights of the press, our traditions in this country, are not to be hidden behind by said press but championed openly by by them by taking ownership for what has been done. He has not and is deserving of our criticism.

[bigmack]

I'm working on another famous feud. O'Neill versus Mulhall. ;) :lol:

Indulto versus OTM Al needs to ferment a little more. :D
Tip top.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/avatar_1500.gif
:D

[PaceAdvantage]

He is responsible for whatever goes on on his site.Bottom-line, 1000% correct. Nothing that went on over there ever goes on here.

Maybe Indulto ought to ask himself why that is, instead of looking for countless ways to defend the indefensible.

[cj]

Bottom-line, 1000% correct. Nothing that went on over there ever goes on here.

Maybe Indulto ought to ask himself why that is, instead of looking for countless ways to defend the indefensible.

The longer it goes that he doesn't reply to an email, or post something, the more it makes it look like he approved.

[Indulto]

I was done with this but this stands to be answered. Where did I brand HANA members anything but people I held in high regard with the 3 I mentioned? I simply asked the membership if they wanted this guy representing them. That's for them to answer as he does not represent me. I am "represented" by enough seedy characters in NY State to voluntarily allow myself to be represented by Mr. Pricci in any way, shape or form.

What I am for is discrediting self serving blowhards in whatever walk of life I happen to encounter them in. He is responsible for whatever goes on on his site. He did not take that responsibility seriously resulting in the slander of several people I would like to think are my friends along with my wife. You've been told before to butt out of this one but you just can't, can you? It's clear where you stand.

The rights of the press, our traditions in this country, are not to be hidden behind by said press but championed openly by by them by taking ownership for what has been done. He has not and is deserving of our criticism.So much for free discourse. I’ve said all I think needs saying for now.

[PaceAdvantage]

So much for free discourse. I’ve said all I think needs saying for now.As long as your account is valid and operational, it's free discourse.

Who exactly is stopping you from posting?

Or is this more disingenuous anonymous grandstanding?

[cj]

As long as your account is valid and operational, it's free discourse.

Who exactly is stopping you from posting?

Or is this more disingenuous anonymous grandstanding?

OF course it is. Funny he ignores things like the lack of any response at all from Pricci other than one post claiming HE was the target.

[bigmack]

Or is this more disingenuous anonymous grandstanding?
I thought you were more South Park than Simpson's.

You get Indulto to watch that episode and this dust-up'll be dust in no time.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/dgr.png

[PaceAdvantage]

I thought you were more South Park than Simpson's.

You get Indulto to watch that episode and this dust-up'll be dust in no time.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/dgr.pngI'm a big fan of both.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...oh you mean the guy at Turf Paradise....

Hey now, it's more like THE MAN at Turf Paradise.

I think if I was stuck at Turf Paradise I would wish I died back in May.

Oh heavens. My eyes, my eyes... Howard! Vince!