PDA

View Full Version : What gives HANA?


turfnsport
11-15-2010, 09:18 PM
Not a peep from HANA over the Life At Ten situation where horseplayers were hung out to dry to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Not a peep (recently anyway) about a takeout increase taking place in California that is only five weeks away.

However, I do see a blog entry about Pogo sticks.

At least in this small corner of the world, HANA is losing any credibility it might have once had.

The silence is deafening.

Jeff P
11-16-2010, 01:53 AM
We didn’t want to do a “me too” piece about the failure to scratch Life At Ten.

But since you asked…

I think failure to scratch Life At Ten borders on outright theft. Further, it is my opinion that the public deserves nothing less than complete transparency and full disclosure of the events that took place in this incident. The fact that the probabilities of this actually happening are small speaks volumes about what the industry thinks of its customers.


About the California Takeout Increase:

Several weeks ago we sent out an email blast to our membership asking them to fill out a short survey related to the pending Thoroughbred Takeout Increase.

It looks like nearly two thirds of the HANA member-players who took the time to complete the survey are in full support of an organized National Players’ Boycott of California racing.

Further, in talking with my own customer base, it appears that about 80% of the JCapper player community supports such a boycott too. Based on conversations I’ve had with hundreds of other players over the past few months, I’m guessing that a very high percentage of most of the other horseplayer communities out there support an organized boycott of California racing too.

I’m not ready to publicly post details yet. But I will confirm that an organized National Players’ Boycott effort is underway.

Contact me privately if you want to discuss further (or participate in the effort.)

That’s all I can say for now.


-jp

.

JustRalph
11-16-2010, 02:02 AM
Not a peep from HANA over the Life At Ten situation where horseplayers were hung out to dry to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Not a peep (recently anyway) about a takeout increase taking place in California that is only five weeks away.

However, I do see a blog entry about Pogo sticks.

At least in this small corner of the world, HANA is losing any credibility it might have once had.

The silence is deafening.

What would them speaking out have accomplished? Pretty soon you start sounding like the boy who cried Wolf. There was plenty of outrage and light shown on this issue by the press. HANA has to choose its battles and keep its powder dry so to speak. If they start screaming about everything they soon become background noise. Just my opine.

andymays
11-16-2010, 09:49 AM
Not a peep from HANA over the Life At Ten situation where horseplayers were hung out to dry to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Not a peep (recently anyway) about a takeout increase taking place in California that is only five weeks away.

However, I do see a blog entry about Pogo sticks.

At least in this small corner of the world, HANA is losing any credibility it might have once had.

The silence is deafening.

This is real simple but for some reason the same things keep happening.

If HANA wants to be a membership organization then they need to do certain things.

Addressing injustices like the Life at Ten incident is one of them. That should have been done within 24 hours of the incident. Waiting until the investigation is complete doesn't cut it because the people doing the investigating are part of the problem. You wouldn't have to reach a firm conclusion within 24 hours but something should be written about the incident with more information to follow.

Letting members participate in bringing attention to problems in the industry is a no-brainer yet there is reluctance to do so. Why?

As I've said many times HANA should probably be a "Think Tank" (or Policy Institute) rather than a membership organization. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_tank

The status quo isn't working at all. The numbers of "active" members is much lower than total members and there is a reason for that. You can't just use members to conduct an experiment (survey) once a year and then put them back in their cages. What doesn't the Board get about that?

HANA has done a bunch of good stuff and net positive for Horseplayers but at some point they need to decide what they want to be. The "Think Tank" way seems to be the most comfortable for the current leadership. There aint nothing wrong with that either. ;)

turfnsport
11-16-2010, 09:54 AM
We didn’t want to do a “me too” piece about the failure to scratch Life At Ten.


Wrong answer




Addressing injustices like the Life at Ten incident is one of them. That should have been done within 24 hours of the incident. Waiting until the investigation is complete doesn't cut it because the people doing the investigating are part of the problem. You wouldn't have to reach a firm conclusion within 24 hours but something should be written about the incident with more information to follow.


Right answer

turfnsport
11-16-2010, 10:05 AM
We didn’t want to do a “me too” piece about the failure to scratch Life At Ten.

But since you asked…

I think failure to scratch Life At Ten borders on outright theft. Further, it is my opinion that the public deserves nothing less than complete transparency and full disclosure of the events that took place in this incident. The fact that the probabilities of this actually happening are small speaks volumes about what the industry thinks of its customers.



You use the words "outright theft" and the public deserves "nothing less than complete transparency and full disclosure of the events that took place in this incident," yet HANA as an organization remaining silent over this incident until I asked is very puzzling to me.

TurfRuler
11-17-2010, 01:27 PM
On the flip side I heard that Life At Ten did not like the lights at Churchill Downs and showed her displeasure. I know that Life At Ten also suffered an injury in 2009 that could have affected her in the Championship Race. And one other point that the so-called complainer of HANA are missing, is that one horse can not win them all and will eventually run last as the favorite. It happens everyday at all racetracks in the world. Keep on betting favorites and keep on complaining about claimers as well as top handicap/stakes performers. But HANA should not let us know this common handicapper mistake.

DJofSD
11-17-2010, 01:38 PM
On the flip side I heard that Life At Ten did not like the lights at Churchill Downs and showed her displeasure. I know that Life At Ten also suffered an injury in 2009 that could have affected her in the Championship Race. And one other point that the so-called complainer of HANA are missing, is that one horse can not win them all and will eventually run last as the favorite. It happens everyday at all racetracks in the world. Keep on betting favorites and keep on complaining about claimers as well as top handicap/stakes performers. But HANA should not let us know this common handicapper mistake.
What are you talking about?

LaT did not go off as the favorite.

No one is saying she should have won let alone win them all. You must be thinking of Zenyatta, and, if so, that has nothing to do with the LaT controversy or HANA.

Common handicapping mistake? Which one are you referring to that applies to LaT?

You seem to miss the point. Bettor's interests (i.e. money) were not protected by the people and offices whose functions exist for that very purpose. They at least could have given us a kiss.

andymays
11-17-2010, 01:42 PM
How does that old country song go?

They (Churchill) got the goldmine and I got the shaft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-p0zn3PijY

DJofSD
11-17-2010, 01:48 PM
How does that old country song go?

They (Churchill) got the goldmine and I got the shaft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-p0zn3PijY

And I hope that when the betting public, HANA and others are done, Veitch and company will be singing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP2oT7F6DSo

TurfRuler
11-17-2010, 02:37 PM
What are you talking about?

LaT did not go off as the favorite.

No one is saying she should have won let alone win them all. You must be thinking of Zenyatta, and, if so, that has nothing to do with the LaT controversy or HANA.

Common handicapping mistake? Which one are you referring to that applies to LaT?

You seem to miss the point. Bettor's interests (i.e. money) were not protected by the people and offices whose functions exist for that very purpose. They at least could have given us a kiss.

First I :D , then I :( after reading your post about the LaT controversy, but I see you are still shedding :( . :lol: :lol: :lol:

andymays
11-21-2010, 10:46 AM
The Life At Ten Debacle

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/

Excerpt:

A number of players and HANA members have told me in no uncertain terms that as HANA's President, I should have immediately called for Veitch's head on a plate.

A number of HANA members and players have also asked why HANA has been silent about the Life At Ten debacle. (And make no mistake: It was a debacle.)

It's a valid question. One that deserves an answer.

Please do not take our silence to mean we approve of what happened or the apparent attempt by Veitch to sweep it under the rug. We are every bit as incensed and bewildered over the events surrounding the Life At Ten incident as you are.

Our mission at HANA is to give horseplayers a voice. As a way of achieving that, we strive to shine a very public spotlight on racing's many debacles (and yes, there are many.)

PhantomOnTour
11-21-2010, 11:04 AM
No disrespect to HANA, but they seem a powerless organization. All they have is the power of persuasion and a watchdog role imo. They would gain more influence if they could organize their membership into some difference making actions.
Protests, speeches, and attending meetings does not cut it. Racetracks will listen when HANA members can and do directly affect the handle. Seems that boycotts or showing support for a particular track are one-day events.

The LaT debacle is a perfect example. HANA needs to raise 10 kinds of holy hell over this. I suppose nothing will really happen unless some Congressman on the Hill forms a committee and has hearings under oath.

I went to the link from the above post and there is an article dated today (21Nov) about the LaT incident....why an article today? That's 2 weeks down the road.

discodog
11-21-2010, 11:36 AM
Hana is more interested in getting a private room, and a few hot dogs, and free beer at the track than they are worried, or wanting to do anything to help the bettor.

The owners of LAT were blaming the track and stewards, the stewards were playing dumb, Johnny V was telling the world 10 minutes before post something was wrong and Pletcher admits the horse was not right when she came to the paddock.

To top it off the Test Barn was to full to test the horse after the race. The TEST BARN WAS TOO FULL. I mean after all there was only close to a half million bet in the WPS pools, and a measley 2 or 3 million in gimmicks, Why worry about the Bettor.

I have one question, when all is said and done, WHO GOT SCREWED.

Charli125
11-21-2010, 12:12 PM
Hana is more interested in getting a private room, and a few hot dogs, and free beer at the track than they are worried, or wanting to do anything to help the bettor.

You've posted this type of drivel before, so I have to ask, have you ever been to a HANA track meeting or are you speaking purely out of your ass? I've been to several and you're sorely mistaken if you think the above characterizes our meetings. A lot has been accomplished when you consider what a small organization we are, and that we all have jobs that tend to take up a good part of our day.

To all of the HANA detractors that complain about nothing being done. What have you done? Not that I expect anyone to do anything, but it's pretty weak to sit at your desk and try to make us look like a bunch of paid lobbyists when in fact we're unpaid volunteers doing as much as we can with our limited time and resources.

Disagree all you want with our positions, and let us have it when you think we've dropped the ball on something. We're a horseplayer advocacy group, and in order to advocate, we need to know what horseplayers think. Look at AndyMays for example. He gives us the most grief of pretty much anyone, but he only does that when he thinks we're doing something wrong, and he comes from a place of wanting to help.(No offense Andy!)

Just leave out the, "they're just doing it for the free beer" BS. I, and other HANA members have spent thousands of our own money attending meetings with tracks/equibase/etc., so trust me on this, we're not in it for the money!

I've never seen a volunteer organization that is fighting for your rights get so much grief from people hiding behind a computer. I understand complaints when you disagree, but to ignore the good that has come from HANA is just stupid.

Dave Schwartz
11-21-2010, 12:24 PM
Hana is more interested in getting a private room, and a few hot dogs, and free beer at the track than they are worried, or wanting to do anything to help the bettor.

This is simply not a fair assessment of either the HANA mentality or their actions.


Do they have limited power? Yes. As I have said before, they need thousands of members, not hundreds. Until they get a large number of soldiers they have no army. And make no mistake; an army is what they need.

Personally, I will leave any criticism I might have behind until such time as I have some time to devote to their effort.

Meanwhile, I will just smile and nod, and remember to say "Thank you" for whatever attempts they make on our behalf.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

DJofSD
11-21-2010, 12:26 PM
And, it is that time of year when we do say "Thank You".

highnote
11-21-2010, 03:16 PM
There is nothing to stop you from starting your own horseplayer advocacy group. If you do not like what HANA is doing then do it yourself.

Keep in mind that just because HANA is not making the front pages of the industry rags does not mean they are not working to make things better for the bettor.

Also, I am sure HANA would be happy to have help from volunteers.

Indulto
11-21-2010, 05:49 PM
No offense, C5, but while your exasperation may be justified in this case, you also confirm some of the reasons why HANA cannot be as responsive as I’m sure you want to be. You are undermanned.To all of the HANA detractors that complain about nothing being done. What have you done?I’m not defending DD’s post. It might help to know what tasks HANA needs to get done, and what they are willing to delegate to volunteers.… Disagree all you want with our positions, and let us have it when you think we've dropped the ball on something. We're a horseplayer advocacy group, and in order to advocate, we need to know what horseplayers think. Look at AndyMays for example. He gives us the most grief of pretty much anyone, but he only does that when he thinks we're doing something wrong, and he comes from a place of wanting to help.(No offense Andy!) …This sounds more like an endorsement of AM than a knock. Since so many current board members don’t have the time to address everything they want to, why not expand the board with people like AM who have the motivation, energy, and availability to help. You certainly can’t disqualify him on the basis of anonymity.… I've never seen a volunteer organization that is fighting for your rights get so much grief from people hiding behind a computer.…If you want to increase your general membership, you can’t keep accusing people of hiding behind their computers; especially when it appears the board is hiding from its membership.… I, and other HANA members have spent thousands of our own money attending meetings with tracks/equibase/etc., so trust me on this, we're not in it for the money! …OK, so why don't you folks share with your membership what you are in it for as individuals and what you're looking for in new board members?… I understand complaints when you disagree, but to ignore the good that has come from HANA is just stupid.Please don’t become another board member who readily employs terms like “stupid” or “moron.” How many people have any idea what the board is actually doing and how decisions are made. Ignorance is NOT bliss. The mission statement only goes so far. If you want people to know what HANA has accomplished, then put up an easy-to-locate list on the website and/or blog.

Charli125
11-21-2010, 07:08 PM
No offense, C5, but while your exasperation may be justified in this case, you also confirm some of the reasons why HANA cannot be as responsive as I’m sure you want to be. You are undermanned. I'm sure we would all agree with you on that one.

I’m not defending DD’s post. It might help to know what tasks HANA needs to get done, and what they are willing to delegate to volunteers. Easier said than done, but we are working on it. I'm sure you can understand that it takes time to find out what to delegate, who to delegate it to, and then to pass on any knowledge that's required.

This sounds more like an endorsement of AM than a knock. Since so many current board members don’t have the time to address everything they want to, why not expand the board with people like AM who have the motivation, energy, and availability to help. You certainly can’t disqualify him on the basis of anonymity. Andy is very involved with HANA whenever it aligns with his own beliefs. In fact he's done a lot more than most and I wish there was someone like him in every state. I certainly wasn't knocking Andy. I was just showing that if you're going to complain, then you better have something to complain about rather than suggesting that we're in this for the comps.

You'll notice that we're adding state reps (albeit gradually), and that's in an effort to keep current on issues in all states as well as to spread out the work.

If you want to increase your general membership, you can’t keep accusing people of hiding behind their computers; especially when it appears the board is hiding from its membership. You lost me on this one. We've held several HANA events that all membership was invited to. We've had some great people take us up on it, but we've probably only had about 20 people show up at all of these events. I see a lot of people on pace complaining about this, that, and the other, but when there is a chance to actually do something about it, we end up with more people wanting to sit around and bitch rather than doing something.

I understand that you personally want anonymity, so that would exclude you from this group, but I'm sure you're in the minority on that.

We also have email addresses that are listed on the home page for anyone that has questions or concerns. We're not hard to reach.

OK, so why don't you folks share with your membership what you are in it for as individuals and what you're looking for in new board members? I have to refer back to our website and the main goals listed on the right. That's what we're hoping to get out of it as individuals.

As for me personally, I'm frustrated. Going in I wasn't expecting much, but I sure wasn't expecting to get more grief from the horseplayers than from anywhere else. I look at the Poker Player's Alliance, and I see how they all ban together and make stuff happen. I look at horseplayers and I see a bunch of people who would rather complain and fight amongst themselves than get anything done. It's our own fault that our industry is going to shit.

Please don’t become another board member who readily employs terms like “stupid” or “moron.” How many people have any idea what the board is actually doing and how decisions are made. Ignorance is NOT bliss. The mission statement only goes so far. If you want people to know what HANA has accomplished, then put up an easy-to-locate list on the website and/or blog.[/color] What we've accomplished has been listed numerous times and I don't care to do it again. If people don't see what's been accomplished, or don't appreciate what's been accomplished, then that's their call. Anyone that is a member here at PA though, has no excuse to not be familiar with the accomplishments.

I have a problem with someone accusing us of being in this for the free stuff. That just shows ignorance and, is stupid.

I also have a problem with a whole host of armchair quarterbacks sitting on their computers complaining. I know it's the status quo for this industry, but it's part of the reason nothing ever happens. The reason I brought Andy up is that a lot of folks see him arguing with HANA rather frequently. Some would see this as negative. Agree or disagree, Andy backs up his words with action, and he brings a lot to the table. He's not complaining for the sake of complaining, he's complaining because he has a different opinion and wants to help.

Indulto
11-21-2010, 09:48 PM
I'm sure we would all agree with you on that one.

Easier said than done, but we are working on it. I'm sure you can understand that it takes time to find out what to delegate, who to delegate it to, and then to pass on any knowledge that's required.

Andy is very involved with HANA whenever it aligns with his own beliefs. In fact he's done a lot more than most and I wish there was someone like him in every state. I certainly wasn't knocking Andy. I was just showing that if you're going to complain, then you better have something to complain about rather than suggesting that we're in this for the comps.

You'll notice that we're adding state reps (albeit gradually), and that's in an effort to keep current on issues in all states as well as to spread out the work.

You lost me on this one. We've held several HANA events that all membership was invited to. We've had some great people take us up on it, but we've probably only had about 20 people show up at all of these events. I see a lot of people on pace complaining about this, that, and the other, but when there is a chance to actually do something about it, we end up with more people wanting to sit around and bitch rather than doing something.

I understand that you personally want anonymity, so that would exclude you from this group, but I'm sure you're in the minority on that.

We also have email addresses that are listed on the home page for anyone that has questions or concerns. We're not hard to reach.

I have to refer back to our website and the main goals listed on the right. That's what we're hoping to get out of it as individuals.

As for me personally, I'm frustrated. Going in I wasn't expecting much, but I sure wasn't expecting to get more grief from the horseplayers than from anywhere else. I look at the Poker Player's Alliance, and I see how they all ban together and make stuff happen. I look at horseplayers and I see a bunch of people who would rather complain and fight amongst themselves than get anything done. It's our own fault that our industry is going to shit.

What we've accomplished has been listed numerous times and I don't care to do it again. If people don't see what's been accomplished, or don't appreciate what's been accomplished, then that's their call. Anyone that is a member here at PA though, has no excuse to not be familiar with the accomplishments.

I have a problem with someone accusing us of being in this for the free stuff. That just shows ignorance and, is stupid.

I also have a problem with a whole host of armchair quarterbacks sitting on their computers complaining. I know it's the status quo for this industry, but it's part of the reason nothing ever happens. The reason I brought Andy up is that a lot of folks see him arguing with HANA rather frequently. Some would see this as negative. Agree or disagree, Andy backs up his words with action, and he brings a lot to the table. He's not complaining for the sake of complaining, he's complaining because he has a different opinion and wants to help.I appreciate the response. Perhaps we can get into further details at a later date. Until then, here's a few thoughts that occurred to me:

1) Almost all of us are "armchair quarterbacks" today, whether playing the game or trying to improve conditions under which we play it. It is how we communicate and participate.

2) Undermanned as HANA is, interrupting individual board members with individual requests for information doesn't seem as efficient as perhaps a weekly newsletter to the membership. A commitment to do this subject to the availability of acceptable volunteers would likely encourage interested parties to step forward. The same is likely true of other required functions. The newsletter could let people know when help is needed in what areas. The more members know what is going on, the more interested they will become in participating.

3) You'll get no argument from me that horseplayers are difficult to coordinate much less get on the same page. We have different motives and objectives for participating that sometimes conflict. That is why I think board members individually need to share what each wants to come of his/her efforts. It seems to me that finding the common ground, across the broadest spectrum is the key to ending divisiveness.

4) I can't remember if there is a FAQ section on the blog, but that would seem an appropriate place for the list off accomplishments that seems to escape so many.

turfnsport
11-21-2010, 09:57 PM
As for me personally, I'm frustrated. Going in I wasn't expecting much, but I sure wasn't expecting to get more grief from the horseplayers than from anywhere else. I look at the Poker Player's Alliance, and I see how they all ban together and make stuff happen. I look at horseplayers and I see a bunch of people who would rather complain and fight amongst themselves than get anything done. It's our own fault that our industry is going to shit.

The PPA was well funded to start out, and there was a major push to get a large amount of players signed up.

HANA has fallen very short in those two areas.

I think that is HANA's major problem.

PaceAdvantage
11-22-2010, 07:20 AM
Hana is more interested in getting a private room, and a few hot dogs, and free beer at the track than they are worried, or wanting to do anything to help the bettor.And we'll just take your word for it, Mr. Anonymous Guy 24 posts in three years... :lol:

CincyHorseplayer
11-22-2010, 09:30 AM
Back to the subject.This isn't corporate funded.Jeff P can't jump on a plane to Louisville over this incident.It stinks and is a travesty,but to point the finger at an organization that is the first of it's kind,attempting to represent players at large,for it's shortcomings is BS.If you have the energy to jump up and rail HANA to the 3rd degree about this,then join in and make a stink towards Churchill Downs over this,not people that on their own time are making an attempt at making conditions better.Last I checked there were about 1200 members nationwide.Get your a$s on board.

Good stuff Charlie:ThmbUp:

Spiderman
11-22-2010, 10:49 AM
The LAT matter is being "swept under the rug." Nothing new and its been ten business days or 15 days since the incident.

ihatenyra
11-22-2010, 02:57 PM
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/

Response is up.

Edit didn't see that this was already posted