Bob Baffert: HOY for Zenyatta Only if She Wins

[andymays]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59702/baffert-hoy-for-zenyatta-only-if-she-wins

Excerpt:

“She has to win,” Baffert said. “Only because they sort of stayed in California with her and didn’t really venture out. She has to win here on the dirt; she did it last year, she was phenomenal, but she did it on a synthetic track so there’s always going to be that question mark. If she does it here on dirt, on these grounds, that’s what it’s all about.

[letswastemoney]

But will she win the Triple Crown?

http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae132/Rachelftw123/Facebook-Zenyatta_1288852948878.png

[jelly]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59702/baffert-hoy-for-zenyatta-only-if-she-wins

Excerpt:

“She has to win,” Baffert said. “Only because they sort of stayed in California with her and didn’t really venture out. She has to win here on the dirt; she did it last year, she was phenomenal, but she did it on a synthetic track so there’s always going to be that question mark. If she does it here on dirt, on these grounds, that’s what it’s all about.



Looks like there is still someone in Cali.who makes sense.

[andymays]

Looks like there is still someone in Cali.who makes sense.

There's two of us. ;)

[GaryG]

There is just no way in hell she deserves HOY with anything less than a win in the Classic. She has done nothing noteworthy yet this year.

[mountainman]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59702/baffert-hoy-for-zenyatta-only-if-she-wins

Excerpt:

“She has to win,” Baffert said. “Only because they sort of stayed in California with her and didn’t really venture out. She has to win here on the dirt; she did it last year, she was phenomenal, but she did it on a synthetic track so there’s always going to be that question mark. If she does it here on dirt, on these grounds, that’s what it’s all about.

Simply stated and devoid of drama. I'll expand his sentiment and state that the outcome of Zenyatta's race should go a looooooong way towards silencing either her supporters or detractors. No matter how much the camp proven wrong tries to bob and weave and immerse the inevitable post-race clash in a sea of performance minutiae; It's put up or shut up time for both sides.

[The_Knight_Sky]

She has done nothing noteworthy yet this year.



Agreed. As of November 4, 2010.

[Nets]

Simply stated and devoid of drama. I'll expand his sentiment and state that the outcome of Zenyatta's race should go a looooooong way towards silencing either her supporters or detractors. No matter how much the camp proven wrong tries to bob and weave and immerse the inevitable post-race clash in a sea of performance minutia; It's put up or shut up time for both sides.

I agree wholeheartedly, but sadly, as one who visits this site daily, I foresee nothing but ugliness regardless of the outcome.

[andymays]

I agree wholeheartedly, but sadly, as one who visits this site daily, I foresee nothing but ugliness regardless of the outcome.

I'm betting against her winning but as I've stated dozens of times before I will be the first to stand up and applaud if she wins. The people who support her blindly always seem to characterize people like myself as if they hate Zenyatta. Nothing could be further from the truth. I think she's awesome but not awesome enough to warrant a win bet.

[Stillriledup]

If Z races great and loses by a short margin to someone other than LAL, QR or Blame, i say she deserves to win. If one of those aforementioned beat her, i say THEY deserve it over her. If Quality Road, Blame or LAL win, how can you deny them the honor?

[Charlie D]

There is just no way in hell she deserves HOY with anything less than a win in the Classic. She has done nothing noteworthy yet this year.


Gary found your statement interesting.

If the others had done anything noteworthy in 2010 would they not be fav for Classic or at least a lot closer in price to Zen ??

[Bullet Plane]

You can say what you want to about Bob. But, the man knows horseracing!

[FenceBored]

Gary found your statement interesting.

If the others had done anything noteworthy in 2010 would they not be fav for Classic or at least a lot closer in price to Zen ??

I'd say that Quality Road's Donn and Met Mile performances were noteworthy. Of course, the Whitney and Woodward ones took the shine off.

[Charlie D]

I'd say that Quality Road's Donn and Met Mile performances were noteworthy. Of course, the Whitney and Woodward ones took the shine off.


But those were simply Good horse v inferior (or tomato cans) just like Zens races were they not??



Note for those looking at Classic: Quality Road has been beaten the three times he met a horse of similar ability like Summer Bird and Blame.

[Robert Fischer]

Baffert is a cool dude. period.
he's usually good for a quote that captures the "pulse" of the industry.


Me personally I really like Zenyatta. She's the best US horse. However, her whole campaign after the Oaklawn race (which never materialized) was a prep for the Classic. You can't prep for something exclusively and then not win it and proclaim yourself the undisputed champ... Then you're kind of depending on everyone else being a mediocrity.

like if Haynesfield steals the Classic, I could see Zenyatta getting HOY simply because no one else separated from her. But Quality Road or Lookin at Lucky, maybe even Blame could make a major case with a win.

The classic will come down to it's race-shape. If the race-shape favors closers Zenyatta better win it, if the race-shape favors forwardly placed runners Zenyatta isn't likely to win.

[Steve R]

Simply stated and devoid of drama. I'll expand his sentiment and state that the outcome of Zenyatta's race should go a looooooong way towards silencing either her supporters or detractors. No matter how much the camp proven wrong tries to bob and weave and immerse the inevitable post-race clash in a sea of performance minutiae; It's put up or shut up time for both sides.
What, exactly, does put up or shut up mean? Even if Zenyatta wins, but in 2:04 with a BSF 105, the performance can be rightfully criticized as inferior. If she wins in 2:01 with a BSF 115, criticism would be uncalled for. If she wins in 2:00 with BSF 120+, she will confirm what her supporters have been saying. It's the same if she doesn't win. The issue is how she loses - valiantly in a spectacular time or simply as an also-ran. Criticism determined only by winning or losing would be a sign of ignorance or a lack of objectivity. There are many scenarios that won't prove or disprove anything, regardless of the outcome.

[Charlie D]

What, exactly, does put up or shut up mean? Even if Zenyatta wins, but in 2:04 with a BSF 105, the performance can be rightfully criticized as inferior. If she wins in 2:01 with a BSF 115, criticism would be uncalled for. If she wins in 2:00 with BSF 120+, she will confirm what her supporters have been saying. It's the same if she doesn't win. The issue is how she loses - valiantly in a spectacular time or simply as an also-ran. Criticism determined only by winning or losing would be a sign of ignorance or a lack of objectivity. There are many scenarios that won't prove or disprove anything, regardless of the outcome.


:ThmbUp: Well sayed imho

[keithw84]

You can't prep for something exclusively and then not win it and proclaim yourself the undisputed champ

Excellent point. On the one hand, we are hearing that she deserves HOY based on what she's already done this year. On the other hand, we are hearing that the whole year is a prep for the BCC - a tacit admission that the year's campaign thusfar has not been especially impressive. You can't have it both ways.

Not trying to downplay 5 G1 wins, but we all know they were "not trying to climb the highest mountain possible."

[GaryG]

Gary found your statement interesting.

If the others had done anything noteworthy in 2010 would they not be fav for Classic or at least a lot closer in price to Zen ??Charlie,

The linemaker thinks she will be favored, and she surely will be, based on who she is, etc. She has beaten nothing but soft California f&m. If she beats this field I will be the first to say I was wrong.

[Charlie D]

Charlie,

The linemaker thinks she will be favored, and she surely will be, based on who she is, etc. She has beaten nothing but soft California f&m. If she beats this field I will be the first to say I was wrong.



Yep, I know she has not beaten much Gary, but niether have any of the others due to there not being much decent opposition in training at this present time and that was point i was trying to make in the earlier rant. :)

[tucker6]

I agree wholeheartedly, but sadly, as one who visits this site daily, I foresee nothing but ugliness regardless of the outcome.I would be considered on the anti side, and I know of no one on here that espouses my views who would deny Zenyatta her day in the sun if she wins the BCC. There will be no ugliness if she wins. We may b!tch that her handlers wasted a great opportunity to showcase the sport, but Zenyatta will have deserved her accolades.

That being said, I don't think she wins.

[tzipi]

There is just no way in hell she deserves HOY with anything less than a win in the Classic. She has done nothing noteworthy yet this year.

Agreed, no way if she doesn't win. If she wins the BCC then yes.

[cj]

Agreed, no way if she doesn't win. If she wins the BCC then yes.

I would say it depends. If a longshot wins the Classic and Blind Luck loses the Distaff, she could still win. She'd probably beat Blind Luck even if she wins the Distaff, but she wouldn't deserve it.

[jelly]

Let me get this strait,she doesn't face a grade one filly or mare all year,she then loses the BCC and is HOY?

[cj]

Let me get this strait,she doesn't face a grade one filly or mare all year,she then loses the BCC and is HOY?

I'm no big fan, but she has raced in and won a bunch of G1s. Other than Blind Luck, nobody else is really close without a win in the Classic.

[mountainman]

What, exactly, does put up or shut up mean? Even if Zenyatta wins, but in 2:04 with a BSF 105, the performance can be rightfully criticized as inferior. If she wins in 2:01 with a BSF 115, criticism would be uncalled for. If she wins in 2:00 with BSF 120+, she will confirm what her supporters have been saying. It's the same if she doesn't win. The issue is how she loses - valiantly in a spectacular time or simply as an also-ran. Criticism determined only by winning or losing would be a sign of ignorance or a lack of objectivity. There are many scenarios that won't prove or disprove anything, regardless of the outcome.

You belabor obvious nuances that any handicapper is aware of. And, like it or not, Zenyatta's place in history will be largely determined by whether she wins or loses Saturday. Tossing around imaginary numbers before the race has even been run ignores the fact that horseracing is about winning and losing. If such weren't the case, Hoy honors would simply be awarded each season to the animal with the best figs. Thanks for the response, but I'll stick to my guns: extremists on one side or the other of the virulent Zenyatta debate should accept a serving of crow come sundown Saturday. By the way, let's stay composed and avoid inflammatory words like "ignorance." I think it's apparent that neither of us is "ignorant" on the topic of horseracing. So let's debate as gentlemen, or not at all. Your choice sir.

[mountainman]

There will be no ugliness if she wins.

With all respect, sir, what forum have you been reading for the last two months?

[Tom]

I have Friday off for a vacation day for the big weekend.
That means I will have to make my own lunch.

Can someone tell me what is Baffert's favorite soup? :rolleyes:


How about this scenario......LAL wins the BBC and Zen is off the board and so is QR?

LAL gets HOY?

"of the year," I gotta give LAL a lot of respect - he has been doing what he has too for a long time, and on two surfaces.

[thaskalos]

You belabor obvious nuances that any handicapper is aware of. And, like it or not, Zenyatta's place in history will be largely determined by whether she wins or loses Saturday. Tossing around imaginary numbers before the race has even been run ignores the fact that horseracing is about winning and losing. If such weren't the case, Hoy honors would simply be awarded each season to the animal with the best figs. Thanks for the response, but I'll stick to my guns: extremists on one side or the other of the virulent Zenyatta debate should accept a serving of crow come sundown Saturday. By the way, let's stay composed and avoid inflammatory words like "ignorance." I think it's apparent that neither of us is "ignorant" on the topic of horseracing. So let's debate as gentlemen, or not at all. Your choice sir.Very well said!

IMO...if Zenyatta wins the Classic, she will have proven that she is the sort of "professional" race horse that we often hear about but hardly ever see...doing only as much as she has to do in order to win the race. To measure a horse such as this solely by speed figures is an injustice.

If she is as slow as her critics perceive her to be...then she should not win this race.

[Charlie D]

IMO...if Zenyatta wins the Classic, she will have proven that she is the sort of "professional" race horse that we often hear about but hardly ever see...doing only as much as she has to do in order to win the race. To measure a horse such as this solely by speed figures is an injustice.

Numbers have been proven to be a good guide in the past, so why would they be such a poor measure of her performance here??

If she is as slow as her critics perceive her to be...then she should not win this race.


If she were slow she would not have won last years Classic, nor would she be 19-0 or be fav to win this years with all major bookmakers in UK.

[thaskalos]

If you were a speed-figure handicapper Charlie, would you consider Zenyatta to be the most likely winner in this race?

[Steve R]

You belabor obvious nuances that any handicapper is aware of. And, like it or not, Zenyatta's place in history will be largely determined by whether she wins or loses Saturday. Tossing around imaginary numbers before the race has even been run ignores the fact that horseracing is about winning and losing. If such weren't the case, Hoy honors would simply be awarded each season to the animal with the best figs. Thanks for the response, but I'll stick to my guns: extremists on one side or the other of the virulent Zenyatta debate should accept a serving of crow come sundown Saturday. By the way, let's stay composed and avoid inflammatory words like "ignorance." I think it's apparent that neither of us is "ignorant" on the topic of horseracing. So let's debate as gentlemen, or not at all. Your choice sir.
Sorry, but racing is about a lot more than winning or losing. If it weren't, Kelso (39 of 63) would be way down the list of all-timers instead of among the top ten, and Seabiscuit (33 of 89) might only be remembered for beating a below par War Admiral in a match race. Winning and losing may be the determining factor for pure horseplayers/gamblers or "horsey lovers". But students who view the game as an athletic competition probably are more demanding and would, I believe, applaud Seattle Slew in his loss to Exceller more than Zenyatta in any of her wins. And, for the most part, the Eclipse Awards are nothing more than the racing equivalent of the Grammys - a popularity contest far removed from serious critical examination. Of course, you might believe Coldplay is a better band than Pavement and you might think Zenyatta is a better mare than Shuvee. To each his own. That said, if Zenyatta wins by challenging Secretariat's Churchill Downs record or loses by a whisker to another horse doing the same, even detractors will credit her more than if she reproduces another slow exhibition like the endless series of her fraudulent "Grade 1" victories.

[Charlie D]

If you were a speed-figure handicapper Charlie, would you consider Zenyatta to be the most likely winner in this race?


Can't answer i'm afraid as i do not compile speed figs much nowadays Thaskalos and i'm unwilling to use any one elses numbers to give you an answer.

[mountainman]

Sorry, but racing is about a lot more than winning or losing. If it weren't, Kelso (39 of 63) would be way down the list of all-timers instead of among the top ten, and Seabiscuit (33 of 89) might only be remembered for beating a below par War Admiral in a match race. Winning and losing may be the determining factor for pure horseplayers/gamblers or "horsey lovers". But students who view the game as an athletic competition probably are more demanding and would, I believe, applaud Seattle Slew in his loss to Exceller more than Zenyatta in any of her wins. And, for the most part, the Eclipse Awards are nothing more than the racing equivalent of the Grammys - a popularity contest far removed from serious critical examination. Of course, you might believe Coldplay is a better band than Pavement and you might think Zenyatta is a better mare than Shuvee. To each his own. That said, if Zenyatta wins by challenging Secretariat's Churchill Downs record or loses by a whisker to another horse doing the same, even detractors will credit her more than if she reproduces another slow exhibition like the endless series of her fraudulent "Grade 1" victories.

Your initial post mentioned clockings and speed-figs 6 or 7 times, and winning or losing, but once. With all respect Steve, the cold, factual results of Saturday's Classic will transcend such numbers- or any sort of performance evaluation on our parts. It's about an epic quest by a very unique, highly polarizing thoroughbred to pass her sternest test and retire unbeaten. You strike me as an excellent handicapper, and I can be just as clinical as yourself in forming a post-race opinion on Zenyatta's final effort. It's what I'm paid to do. But subjective opinions will be completely beside the point after the smoke clears. For Zenyatta's legacy, this race is NOT about how she plays the game, but whether she wins or loses.

In addition, the iconic horses you invoked serve to prove MY point. Both Seabiscuit and Kelso laid claim to immortality by virtue of durability. And since that path to the pantheon is blocked off to Zenyatta-and so many questions have plagued her reputation- she must stay unbeaten to become legend.

[KingChas]

But will she win the Triple Crown?



Sorry to go off thread.
But this had me rolling.
I am listening to national sport talk radio today...no names.
Dead serious no BS.

Caller;If Z wins why do they want to retire her,why not go for the TC next year?

Host;Why would they tire her out running in those rough races when she is worth gazzilions in the breeding shed?

Caller;Well I guess your right....................(The End)

Now I know why we finished so poorly in the ESPN poll.(Fav sports to watch)

Why do I get the feeling those of us here are in a dying cult?
Happy Late Halloween. :D

[letswastemoney]

I'm no big fan, but she has raced in and won a bunch of G1s. Other than Blind Luck, nobody else is really close without a win in the Classic.
Quality Road has 3 open G1s. Is that not good enough?

[cj]

Quality Road has 3 open G1s. Is that not good enough?

Maybe, but it certainly could be argued.

[dccprez]

...like the endless series of her fraudulent "Grade 1" victories.

(The above is taken from a much longer paragraph in reference to Zenyatta, of course.)

Let's try and clarify a few things;

- The races ARE Grade 1 races. I checked. So no "quotation marks" are needed.

- There is nothing "fradulent" about the victories; she did, in fact, cross the finish line ahead of all of the other horses in each of those races. I saw it myself.

- There is nothing "fradulent" about the Grade 1 status; the Graded Stakes Committee gave these races the G1 status. It's a fact - I looked it up!
And none of the races were "post-graded" (my own term!) after the race was run, and/or won by Z. You can look that up too.

- The "series" was not "endless"; I confirmed this. There were only a "finite" number of races - 13 G1's so far.


Just trying to separate "emotion" from the facts!

[FenceBored]

But those were simply Good horse v inferior (or tomato cans) just like Zens races were they not??



Note for those looking at Classic: Quality Road has been beaten the three times he met a horse of similar ability like Summer Bird and Blame.

At some point, for me at least, a performance becomes noteworthy in and of itself and transcends the competition involved. To take the extreme US example, does it matter who was in the Belmont with Secretariat when he ran 12f in 2:24 on dirt? No, not a bit, the point is that he did it.

In Quality Road's case setting a new track record for the second time in three starts at Gulfstream would be one such item. Following that up with one of the 10 fastest mile races on dirt in the US over the past 20 years is another.

Now where those items factor in to handicapping this race, given the lackluster Saratoga performances, and his record at 10f, is a different, and more important, question. And those concerns are part of why he's not the M-L favorite (along with acknowledging all the sentimental money that will flow to Zenyatta), but, it's not as though he hasn't done anything noteworthy this year.

[FenceBored]

(The above is taken from a much longer paragraph in reference to Zenyatta, of course.)

Let's try and clarify a few things;

- The races ARE Grade 1 races. I checked. So no "quotation marks" are needed.

- There is nothing "fradulent" about the victories; she did, in fact, cross the finish line ahead of all of the other horses in each of those races. I saw it myself.

- There is nothing "fradulent" about the Grade 1 status; the Graded Stakes Committee gave these races the G1 status. It's a fact - I looked it up!
And none of the races were "post-graded" (my own term!) after the race was run, and/or won by Z. You can look that up too.

- The "series" was not "endless"; I confirmed this. There were only a "finite" number of races - 13 G1's so far.


Just trying to separate "emotion" from the facts!

Nope, you're injecting emotion into the facts.

[Tom]

So do we need a committee to evaluate all Grade 1 races after the fact to decide if they are legitimate or not? Has every other GR1 been as fully vetted as Zenyatta's races? Have they all been analyzed for speed biases and souped up tracks?

Or is that not the new standard?

[GaryG]

So do we need a committee to evaluate all Grade 1 races after the fact to decide if they are legitimate or not? Has every other GR1 been as fully vetted as Zenyatta's races? Have they all been analyzed for speed biases and souped up tracks?

Or is that not the new standard?It is not just Zenyatta. I haven't followed Cal racing as much as I once did, but I did follow the Oak Tree meet. Virtually all of the graded stakes were equal to a 3rd tier allowance. A horse dropping from a G2 into a N3X is probably not a standout. I do not look for the Cal shippers to be a factor at the BC. Just my opinion of course.

[FenceBored]

So do we need a committee to evaluate all Grade 1 races after the fact to decide if they are legitimate or not? Has every other GR1 been as fully vetted as Zenyatta's races? Have they all been analyzed for speed biases and souped up tracks?

Or is that not the new standard?

CharlieD's doing it with Blame and Quality Road, not unreasonably. And last year at this time it wasn't being done seriously with Zenyatta (aside from cj), but was being done with another animal (who shall remain nameless). It's nothing new and it's not restricted to Zenyatta.

[Tom]

It is not just Zenyatta. I haven't followed Cal racing as much as I once did, but I did follow the Oak Tree meet. Virtually all of the graded stakes were equal to a 3rd tier allowance. A horse dropping from a G2 into a N3X is probably not a standout. I do not look for the Cal shippers to be a factor at the BC. Just my opinion of course.

Agree that none of the synth races should have kept their graded status until they proved themselves all over again.

[Tom]

CharlieD's doing it with Blame and Quality Road, not unreasonably. And last year at this time it wasn't being done seriously with Zenyatta (aside from cj), but was being done with another animal (who shall remain nameless). It's nothing new and it's not restricted to Zenyatta.

Fair enough.
But, I think you will agree, the arguments against RA in terms of who she beat were just plain nonsense. She was a special horse last year and did stuff that has never been done before. If she is not a great filly after that, then neither are Sec or Affirmed.

[andymays]

What makes the article interesting to me is that I'm pretty sure Baffert has felt this way for some time now. He's a competitor but in California if you say anything against Zenyatta you get hate directed at you. He has a horse that has a shot for HOY so why let Shirreffs and Moss lobby for their horse 10 times a day? I'm pretty sure that if other Trainers who seem to think she deserves HOY "no matter what" had contenders they would feel the same way Baffert feels.

I've never seen anything close to the atmosphere out here where people are really afraid to say anything that might be considered criticism of Zenyatta.

[Stillriledup]

I just watched someone named Awesome Gem win the Hollywood Gold Cup and can't help but wonder, WHERE was Zenyatta? To this day, still, no one has answered that question.

[cj]

I just watched someone named Awesome Gem win the Hollywood Gold Cup and can't help but wonder, WHERE was Zenyatta? To this day, still, no one has answered that question.

She had a scheduled work that day. I caught it on camera:

http://www.pacefigures.com/images/z.jpg

[andymays]

I just watched someone named Awesome Gem win the Hollywood Gold Cup and can't help but wonder, WHERE was Zenyatta? To this day, still, no one has answered that question.

Those are questions wer're not allowed to ask for some reason. :rolleyes:

[keithw84]

Anyone else see Mike Watchmaker's BCC analysis? He talked about how Zenyatta's fanbase was one of the most incredible he had ever seen, and how people who express any doubts are labeled "haters" ... good to know it's recognized beyond this message board!

He went on to say the Classic would be Blame over Lookin at Lucky

[Stillriledup]

Those are questions wer're not allowed to ask for some reason. :rolleyes:


We can ask, but we won't ever get an answer.

[tucker6]

We can ask, but we won't ever get an answer.tomorrow answers a lot my friend. She was either so good she didn't need to compete on a regular basis against the Awesome Gems of the world, or she was suspect even to her connections, and they were ducking all the way to the end.

[Steve R]

Your initial post mentioned clockings and speed-figs 6 or 7 times, and winning or losing, but once. With all respect Steve, the cold, factual results of Saturday's Classic will transcend such numbers- or any sort of performance evaluation on our parts. It's about an epic quest by a very unique, highly polarizing thoroughbred to pass her sternest test and retire unbeaten. You strike me as an excellent handicapper, and I can be just as clinical as yourself in forming a post-race opinion on Zenyatta's final effort. It's what I'm paid to do. But subjective opinions will be completely beside the point after the smoke clears. For Zenyatta's legacy, this race is NOT about how she plays the game, but whether she wins or loses.

In addition, the iconic horses you invoked serve to prove MY point. Both Seabiscuit and Kelso laid claim to immortality by virtue of durability. And since that path to the pantheon is blocked off to Zenyatta-and so many questions have plagued her reputation- she must stay unbeaten to become legend.
I understand the cultural and "romantic" implications of a Zenyatta victory, but I can't ignore the fact that her connections essentially "ran up the score" by seeking out powder-puff competition while avoiding the kinds of challenges a horse of that supposed stature should be meeting. I don't want to compare her to Peppers Pride but Peppers Pride won 19 straight by running slow races that were fast enough to win. Obviously Zenyatta is much faster than that but essentially did the same thing by her connections staying away from threatening competition as best they could.

As for my focus on time and speed figures, I would argue that what you call the pantheon is filled with horses that ran many of their races in record time or within a couple of ticks or so. Zenyatta hasn't done that. I think running fast by historical standards is important in assessing the quality of a horse's career.

I suppose I am more impressed with fillies and mares like Twilight Tear, who defeated males seven times in 24 career starts (winning 18), including a track record shattering win in the Skokie Handicap, an easy victory over Derby and Preakness winner Pensive (also 2nd in the Belmont) and a thorough 6-length thrashing of near-great Devil Diver in the Pimlico Special in one of that colt's championship seasons (just one tick off the Pimlico track record for 1 3/16ths).

In any case, if Zenyatta runs a 2:00 minute or less Classic and wins by open lengths, I'll be more than happy to credit the effort. Of course Monarchos ran that fast at Churchill Downs and I don't know many who would put him high on the list of great horses.

As I have noted before, win streaks are among the least impressive stats for me, just like lifetime earnings. The former can be manipulated to a degree and the latter is simply the result of purse inflation. Then again, there are actually a lot of people who think Curlin was a great horse. He wouldn't be on my list, nor would Zenyatta be among the very top fillies and mares I actually have seen race over the years. I'm the first to admit it is no more than my opinion based on many years of personal experience.

I should point out that my own speed figures have Zenyatta with the 3rd best lifetime figure on dirt in the Classic field, so I expect she can win if she runs back to that number. Of the two with a better figure, one is suspect at 10f and the other may need to steal it on the front end. However, her lifetime best is still well below that of countless horses who have come before her.

If 20 for 20 is that important, then I can't imagine what Kincsem's 54 for 54 must mean, especially since she did it against males and females at the highest levels all over Europe and from sprint to marathon distances.

[dccprez]

Nope, you're injecting emotion into the facts.


No I'm not....

NO I'm not!

NO I'M NOT!!!


Zenyatta is the GREATEST RACE HORSE EVER!!! NO I AM NOT!!! NO I AM...

...wait...

No, no...right.

No I am not. I'm not....i'm not...GOD I love Rachel....

Wait...OK, done.

PS; they were, in fact, all Grade 1 races. I checked.


(Can we STOP now? She's great. I love her. I agree that that her recent races were little more than public workouts - with a few exceptions. Move on people...)

[Robert Goren]

Z has not run against the males this year. From what I have seen of the older males, she hasn't missed much. The three year old males aren't nothing to write home about either. The last two years has given us the sorriest bunch of dirt males that I have ever seen. The fact that a six year old mare(unbeaten or not) is going to heavy betting favorite against the best of the bunch says a lot. I can not think of another BC field other than last years she would be favored in.

[andymays]

Z has not run against the males this year. From what I have seen of the older males, she hasn't missed much. The three year old males aren't nothing to write home about either. The last two years has given us the sorriest bunch of dirt males that I have ever seen. The fact that a six year old mare(unbeaten or not) is going to heavy betting favorite against the best of the bunch says a lot. I can not think of another BC field other than last years she would be favored in.

Which race are Rinterval and Switch running in today instead of the Ladies Classic? That says a lot.

[mountainman]

I think running fast by historical standards is important in assessing the quality of a horse's career.



The people that Zeyatta bids today to be remembered by have never heard of Andy Beyer, let alone his speed-numbers. Fast times are a by-product of thorougbred legend, not what drives the legend. Otherwise, the Seabiscuit film would have been about Ghostzapper or Groovy.
There are several other points in your post that I'd love to counter, but my plate is too full today. Please have the last word if you wish, and good luck with your bc bets.