Where's the Outrage over Woodbines treatment of Canadian Horseplayers?

[andymays]

Woodbine (Canadian Racing/HPI) seems to have very little respect for their customers. I didn’t know about this until JeffP posted this in another thread:
------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76817&page=1&pp=20

post #27 Jeff P wrote:

But I have to point out just how messed up Woodbine's treatment of Canadian customers unfortunate enough to have to play the Breeders Cup through HPI happens to be...

If you play this year's Breeders Cup through HPI you can expect Woodbine to charge you the full Woodbine takeout rate of 27% on trifectas vs. the 19% takeout rate on the same wager that everybody else pays.

That's right. If you bet this year's Breeders Cup through HPI and hit a tri, expect to be paid significantly less than if you had cashed the same bet live on track or through a US parimutuel ADW.

Anyone else besides me see how messed up that is?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Everyone knows what's going on in California and the people who lead California racing need to be held accountable for their recent actions. I fully support a boycott for one week during the Hollywood Park meeting in order to send a message to the people in charge. I will most likely support any other demonstration/suspension of play/boycott if we do it again or at another time.

I put this up because since Jeffs post I haven't seen anything about it. Maybe some of the people who know the details can weigh in. Is anyone calling for Woodbine/Canadian racing to be punished? If it's anything like California there are a handfull of people making these decisions. Who are they? Is it just a few people or is it Canadian racing in general.

I don't know much about how Woodbine operates or much about Canadian racing so if I've made any mistakes I hope someone can correct them or clarify the details so everyone is informed. I would hate to cast dispersions about all of Canadian/Woodbine racing. ;)

Yes, I'm making a point. ;)

[The_Knight_Sky]

Everyone knows what's going on in California and the people who lead California racing need to be held accountable for their recent actions.

I fully support a boycott for one week during the Hollywood Park meeting in order to send a message to the people in charge. I will most likely support any other demonstration/suspension of play/boycott if we do it again or at another time.
A sincere question.
What would one week show of horseplayer solidarity accomplish?

The plight of California racing runs much deeper.
We can't be taking a break for one week and coming back the next Wednesday and thinking all is fine and dandy at Hollywood Park in November.




Is anyone calling for Woodbine/Canadian racing to be punished?



I'd call for it, but this track fell off my radar as soon as it went to Poly.
So until they revert to dirt, Woodbine is on my "permanent boycott" list. ;)

[andymays]

A sincere question.
What would one week show of horseplayer solidarity accomplish?
The plight of California racing runs much deeper.
We can't be taking a break for one week and coming back the next Wednesday and thinking all is fine and dandy at Hollywood Park in November.




I'd call for it, but this track fell off my radar as soon as it went to Poly.
So until they revert to dirt, Woodbine is on my "permanent boycott" list. ;)

The one week boycott is the best option for several reasons and I've detailed them many times before.

Just how many active HANA members do you think there are? Whether or not a boycott will be successful is an unknown. If it is successful it can be done again in January unless they make some concessions.

[Greyfox]

post #27 Jeff P wrote:


If you play this year's Breeders Cup through HPI you can expect Woodbine to charge you the full Woodbine takeout rate of 27% on trifectas vs. the 19% takeout rate on the same wager that everybody else pays.

That's right. If you bet this year's Breeders Cup through HPI and hit a tri, expect to be paid significantly less than if you had cashed the same bet live on track or through a US parimutuel ADW.

. ;)

But the I.R.S. doesn't take a chunk of any big payouts at Woodbine.

[Charlie D]

But the I.R.S. doesn't take a chunk of any big payouts at Woodbine.


My gawd. I hope that is not the reason they spout for this robbery.

[LowerTakeout]

But the I.R.S. doesn't take a chunk of any big payouts at Woodbine.


If you are required to pay US income taxes, you are required to claim all winnings on your US income tax forms, regardless of where the winnings came from.

[Charli125]

If you are required to pay US income taxes, you are required to claim all winnings on your US income tax forms, regardless of where the winnings came from.

I think Greyfox is implying that since Canadians don't have to pay income tax on gambling winnings, the higher takeout is justified. I disagree.

As I understand it, the difference in takeout between actual Churchill takeout and what Woodbine charges goes straight to Woodbine. That's highway robbery and I sure hope the Canadian players are able to find alternate ways to play the Breeder's Cup.

[Greyfox]

I think Greyfox is implying that since Canadians don't have to pay income tax on gambling winnings, the higher takeout is justified. I disagree.

.

The fact is that every ticket buyer is paying a small federal tax upon purchase.
That tax is part of the takeout. But if he wins $ 20,000 the money is his.

[JustRalph]

I think Greyfox is implying that since Canadians don't have to pay income tax on gambling winnings, the higher takeout is justified. I disagree.

I have recently been enlightened. I would rather pay on exotics etc than pay the high rates on everything else in Canada. Some people from this board told me about the other stuff they have to pay in Canada....discussed while at Saratoga...... I will take the rare exotic hit that I "might" have to pay here. Considering I haven't had a signer in a couple of years....it's a no brainer... :lol:

[Charli125]

The fact is that every ticket buyer is paying a small federal tax upon purchase.
That tax is part of the takeout. But if he wins $ 20,000 the money is his.

So if I'm Canadian, and I make a bet through HPI or ontrack at Woodbine, a portion of my bet is taken for government tax? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that doesn't make sense to me. What about situations where they charge the same takeout as the track taking the bet? Are they paying the tax from their profit? Also, is this tax a tax on the wagerer, or a tax on Woodbine profits?

Also, if this is the case, then they should at worst offer track takeout plus government tax.

I'm not very familiar with the way they do things in Canada, so it would be helpful if you could explain.

[Charli125]

I have recently been enlightened. I would rather pay on exotics etc than pay the high rates on everything else in Canada. Some people from this board told me about the other stuff they have to pay in Canada....discussed while at Saratoga...... I will take the rare exotic hit that I "might" have to pay here. Considering I haven't had a signer in a couple of years....it's a no brainer... :lol:

And don't get me wrong, I agree with JustRalph. You guys get taxed out the wazoo! I don't think I could afford to drink if I lived in Canada!

[Greyfox]

So if I'm Canadian, and I make a bet through HPI or ontrack at Woodbine, a portion of my bet is taken for government tax? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that doesn't make sense to me. What about situations where they charge the same takeout as the track taking the bet? Are they paying the tax from their profit? Also, is this tax a tax on the wagerer, or a tax on Woodbine profits?

.

I don't know the answer to several of your questions.
When in Canada, I've played Canadian tracks. A small percentage of every ticket bought is for the federal government tax. But whatever amount you win is yours.
Maybe you can find out from http://www.horseplayerinteractive.com/

[andymays]

And don't get me wrong, I agree with JustRalph. You guys get taxed out the wazoo! I don't think I could afford to drink if I lived in Canada!

Charlie, where are our two Canadian friends from the HANA board? You know the guys that are into punishing all of California while they ignore the problems in their own backyard. That's a little strange isn't it? Hmmmmmmm

As I said earlier I'm all for a boycott of California but I have to tell you when we have those two making a blanket statement about punishing California while Woodbine flat out robs people is a little out of line. Just a little. I waited a couple of days before I put this thread up because I figured someone from the board would address it with a thread or on the blog. Instead I see accolades for a track instituting a 15% take pick 4. Hmmmmmmm, the 10% take pick 4 in California was no good. How exactly does this work?

Lets start naming the villains and who they work for. This blanket statements stuff about punishing California from two guys who have problems with their own racing stinks to high heaven. In California the villains are the Leaders of the CHRB, TOC, and Track Executives. Who exactly are the villains in Canada?

[Charli125]

Charlie, where are our two Canadian friends from the HANA board? You know the guys that are into punishing all of California while they ignore the problems in their own backyard. That's a little strange isn't it? Hmmmmmmm

As I said earlier I'm all for a boycott of California but I have to tell you when we have those two making a blanket statement about punishing California while Woodbine flat out robs people is a little out of line. Just a little. I waited a couple of days before I put this thread up because I figured someone from the board would address it with a thread or on the blog. Instead I see accolades for a track instituting a 15% take pick 4. Hmmmmmmm, the 10% take pick 4 in California was no good. How exactly does this work?

Lets start naming the villains and who they work for. This blanket statements stuff about punishing California from two guys who have problems with their own racing stinks to high heaven. In California the villains are the Leaders of the CHRB, TOC, and Track Executives. Who exactly are the villains in Canada?

Just give it a minute, one is taking his lovely wife out for dinner, and the other is busy at work. We've already written a piece for the HANA site and it'll be up ASAP. It does everything you're asking for.

[andymays]

Just give it a minute, one is taking his lovely wife out for dinner, and the other is busy at work. We've already written a piece for the HANA site and it'll be up ASAP. It does everything you're asking for.

That's what I'm looking for. Check your email.


Thanks,

Andy

[rwwupl]

That's what I'm looking for. Check your email.


As I said earlier I'm all for a boycott of California but I have to tell you when we have those two making a blanket statement about punishing California while Woodbine flat out robs people is a little out of line. Just a little. I waited a couple of days before I put this thread up because I figured someone from the board would address it with a thread or on the blog. Instead I see accolades for a track instituting a 15% take pick 4. Hmmmmmmm, the 10% take pick 4 in California was no good. How exactly does this work?






Thanks,

Andy

Andy,


Those are good questions. I am glad HANA will put out something on some unfairness in other peoples back yard.

Hmmm.. I wonder what the "rebate" schedule is? It must be pretty good for some with those rates.

We need to look after all horseplayers, not just the few.

Lets clean out those who are the problem and creating this mess, but lets do not blanket punish everyone associated with the racing circuit.

California employs 50-55,000 people... they all do not need the lesson of "Punishment" or be put out of work.

[cj]

California employs 50-55,000 people... they all do not need the lesson of "Punishment" or be put out of work.

That is pretty lame to put that on bettors.

[andymays]

That is pretty lame to put that on bettors.

I agree that it's not the bettors responsibility. I would like to see anyone leading a boycott to be specific about who they are punishing and identify the people and the organizations causing the takeout increase.

I'd just like to see the same outrage by some HANA board members with Woodbine as I see with California.

It is my understanding that they are putting something up on the blog about it as we speak.

[DeanT]

That is pretty lame to put that on bettors.

Considering that a raise in take will cost them jobs in the long-run, it can be argued that horseplayers actually want to protect those jobs.

I am pretty sure there were more than 50k people employed in CA before their last takeout hike.

[andymays]

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/

Excerpt:

Rather than just call attention to this in a write up, we at HANA would ask you to let track management at Woodbine know how you feel.

Why not take the time to write them an email - or better yet an old fashioned letter - voicing your thoughts? Phoning them is also an option.

Woodbine’s contact info is shown below:

Woodbine Entertainment Group
P.O. Box 156, 555 Rexdale Boulevard
Toronto, Ontario, M9W 5L2
Telephone: (416) 675-7223 (RACE)
Toll Free: 1-888-675-7223 (RACE)
Internet Comment Page: http://www.woodbineentertainment.com/Woodbine/VisitUs/Contact/Pages/AskAQuestion.aspx


Jeff Platt
President, HANA

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Email sent.

[rwwupl]

http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/

Excerpt:

Rather than just call attention to this in a write up, we at HANA would ask you to let track management at Woodbine know how you feel.

Why not take the time to write them an email - or better yet an old fashioned letter - voicing your thoughts? Phoning them is also an option.

Woodbine’s contact info is shown below:

Woodbine Entertainment Group
P.O. Box 156, 555 Rexdale Boulevard


Toronto, Ontario, M9W 5L2
Telephone: (416) 675-7223 (RACE)
Toll Free: 1-888-675-7223 (RACE)
Internet Comment Page: http://www.woodbineentertainment.com/Woodbine/VisitUs/Contact/Pages/AskAQuestion.aspx


Jeff Platt
President, HANA

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Email sent.


Complete by Roger...
Phone call to Woodbine, recorded by "Peggy" for whoever is in charge.

"Your takeout is too damn high", with name and return number, etc.

[cj]

Considering that a raise in take will cost them jobs in the long-run, it can be argued that horseplayers actually want to protect those jobs.

I am pretty sure there were more than 50k people employed in CA before their last takeout hike.

This is true. I would also argue that a lot of those 50k aren't needed and are part of the problem.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

The fact is that every ticket buyer is paying a small federal tax upon purchase.
That tax is part of the takeout. But if he wins $ 20,000 the money is his.
Isn't this the case in most jurisdictions?

The mandatory deductions on money bet at Ontario tracks is part of the takeout:

Horsepeople receive a further 2% on all wagers except 4% on triactor wagering.

The Ontario Provincial Government retains 0.5% on all bets placed in Ontario.

The Canadian Government (through a revolving fund cost recovery basis) retains 0.8% on all wagers placed in Canada for provision of drug control, photo-finish, video patrol and audit services.

Woodbine is actually looking at getting rid of the Horsepeople deduction which should lead to a healthy takeout reduction if they can pull it off. The plan is to have slots money replace it.

[Greyfox]

The Canadian Government (through a revolving fund cost recovery basis) retains 0.8% on all wagers placed in Canada for provision of drug control, photo-finish, video patrol and audit services.

.

Right. That's what I said. But you've added flesh with the specifics that I didn't have. The Canadian Government takes a small percentage of every wager and they do not take away any of your winnings if you win.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Right. That's what I said. But you've added flesh with the specifics that I didn't have. The Canadian Government takes a small percentage of every wager and they do not take away any of your winnings if you win.
The fact Canada doesn't tax gambling winnings is no justification for high takeout rates or what is going on in this specific case.
The laws were in place when there was only exactor, double and WPS betting and the blended takeout rate was less than 17 or 18%.

[Greyfox]

The fact Canada doesn't tax gambling winnings is no justification for high takeout rates or what is going on in this specific case.
.

Agreed. They are too high all right. I note though that the original post was referring to the trifecta - 27 % in Canada, 19 % in the U.S (according to post 1).

[thaskalos]

I'd just like to see the same outrage by some HANA board members with Woodbine as I see with California.

Woodbine's takeout situation - although dispicable - is an isolated incident involving only the Breeders Cup, Andy...whereas the California takeout increase will continue forever - or until they decide to raise it again in the future. How are the two cases even remotely related?

Did the Woodbine Racing Board commissioners publicly declare that they are really in the entertainment business and NOT the gambling business, and that they should not be concerned with the fact that their product is grossly overpriced when compared to other forms of gambling?

When they were asked for a reason for the takeout increase...did the Woodbine Racing Board commissioners futher infuriate their already pissed-off customers by declaring that their product was "the premier racing product in the country"...and that they were raising their prices because they were - up to the present time - "offering their first-class product at a discount price"?

Wasn't it you who stated to me awhile ago that you have participated in more than a few meetings with these CHRB "bigshots", and that the minute the conversation turns to us horseplayers and our needs and complaints...words like "addicts" and "losers" are blurted out?

Why are we even concerning ourselves with the Woodbine situation...have we run out of things to complain about in OUR country?

Need I remind you (or HANA) that the WIN takeout at Turf Paradise is 20%, or that the trifecta and superfecta takeout in Philly Park is still 30%+...even with a booming slot trade?

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Where's the Outrage over Woodbines treatment of Canadian Horseplayers?

Any horseplayer with an ounce of pride or dignity that is educated in the ways of Woodbine and the people who are in charge of it would have to take a hot shower for at least an hour to wash all the filthy slime off if they made a bet on their product.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=797149&highlight=woodbine#post797149

Exactly!

Lower the take 1.3% on Wdb

Raise the take 2% (for a total of up to 7%) on all NA simulcast signals.

Sickening!

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=701331&highlight=woodbine#post701331

Woodbine.....

High takeout

They stick a gun in their core customers side when robbing them on their simulcast takeout rates

Basically....Woodbine makes almost every bettor....1. Alter their play as to avoid exotics......2. Feel like they were robbed when betting simulcasts... 5. feel like they are a necessary evil and not valued when they can't just bet and feel good about betting there.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=796340&highlight=woodbine#post796340

[appistappis]

I could write about 14 pages here about how woodbine and ft erie thru hpibet are screwing us here....Instead, I'll just say our small group of regulars will be playing the two day breeders at presque isle in pa. The woodbine f***ers drive us out of our own country.

[Rook]

Charlie, where are our two Canadian friends from the HANA board? You know the guys that are into punishing all of California while they ignore the problems in their own backyard. That's a little strange isn't it? Hmmmmmmm

There's nothing strange about it. No Canadian has to bet through Woodbine's HPI service. Even the casually informed know there are plenty of other superior options like PTC.

For over two years, I was in favor of boycotting Woodbine due to their extreme anti-rebate stance but things have gotten a lot better this year now that their former CEO David Willmot has retired.

The effective takeout on Woodbine races has been slashed this year, while California's is about to go up again. This is why your state is currently the number one enemy of horseplayers.

[andymays]

Woodbine's takeout situation - although dispicable - is an isolated incident involving only the Breeders Cup, Andy...whereas the California takeout increase will continue forever - or until they decide to raise it again in the future. How are the two cases even remotely related?

Did the Woodbine Racing Board commissioners publicly declare that they are really in the entertainment business and NOT the gambling business, and that they should not be concerned with the fact that their product is grossly overpriced when compared to other forms of gambling?

When they were asked for a reason for the takeout increase...did the Woodbine Racing Board commissioners futher infuriate their already pissed-off customers by declaring that their product was "the premier racing product in the country"...and that they were raising their prices because they were - up to the present time - "offering their first-class product at a discount price"?

Wasn't it you who stated to me awhile ago that you have participated in more than a few meetings with these CHRB "bigshots", and that the minute the conversation turns to us horseplayers and our needs and complaints...words like "addicts" and "losers" are blurted out?

Why are we even concerning ourselves with the Woodbine situation...have we run out of things to complain about in OUR country?

Need I remind you (or HANA) that the WIN takeout at Turf Paradise is 20%, or that the trifecta and superfecta takeout in Philly Park is still 30%+...even with a booming slot trade?

I'm for the boycott. You're missing the point of the thread. Yes the leadership at the CHRB, TOC, and Track Executives are the ones that need to go.

[andymays]

There's nothing strange about it. No Canadian has to bet through Woodbine's HPI service. Even the casually informed know there are plenty of other superior options like PTC.

For over two years, I was in favor of boycotting Woodbine due to their extreme anti-rebate stance but things have gotten a lot better this year now that their former CEO David Willmot has retired.

The effective takeout on Woodbine races has been slashed this year, while California's is about to go up again. This is why your state is currently the number one enemy of horseplayers.

Thanks but I know exacty why the leadership in California needs to go and go fast. I doubt there is anyone on this board who has posted one tenth of the stuff I've posted pointing out the problems here. And yes, I am for a boycott of California. Again, this is a about a couple of HANA board members quick to throw stones at California while brushing aside what's happening in their own back yard. Don't you find it strange that I put up a thread about this?


And your home tracks are in what state?

[DeanT]

Again, this is a about a couple of HANA board members quick to throw stones at California while brushing aside what's happening in their own back yard. Don't you find it strange that I put up a thread about this?


I will answer the troll bait once, since you keep bringing this up.

Who do you think brought this to everyone's attention? A HANA member from Virginia?

This issue was brought up long before this by HANA and HANA members, face to face with Woodbine, as well as on blogs, twitter etc. It is an issue which we have been engaged with. The track has started to pay off on some exotics at full track price finally. But the pace is slow.

The track was emailed last week for confirmation on this years BC, and they responded. Jeff and the board did not like the response and promoted it via the blog. The "two Canadian HANA members" have brought this up each year when they were not, and were, and are HANA members. Horseplayers have been alerted in myriad ways.

Woodbine, since Wilmott left, has lowered tri takes by 1.3%, allowed better signal distribution, started paying off some exotics for simo at track odds, and have finally delivered things like the 14% pick 4 at PM at 14%. They are also in the process of looking at dropping takeout 4% for super exotics and 2% for all others via horsemen groups and the Canadian Pari-mutuel agency. This might be done in 2011, but we will be watching.

California? All they have done is raise takeout and called horseplayers names. That, as Rook said, is why that jurisdiction is the most hated one for horseplayers, perhaps in history.

The two jurisdictions are apples and oranges. However, when the apple does something bad (despite doing some things good) horseplayers (as Jeff noted) will be alerted.

[andymays]

I will answer the troll bait once, since you keep bringing this up.

Who do you think brought this to everyone's attention? A HANA member from Virginia?

This issue was brought up long before this by HANA and HANA members, face to face with Woodbine, as well as on blogs, twitter etc. It is an issue which we have been engaged with. The track has started to pay off on some exotics at full track price finally. But the pace is slow.

The track was emailed last week for confirmation on this years BC, and they responded. Jeff and the board did not like the response and promoted it via the blog. The "two Canadian HANA members" have brought this up each year when they were not, and were, and are HANA members. Horseplayers have been alerted in myriad ways.

Woodbine, since Wilmott left, has lowered tri takes by 1.3%, allowed better signal distribution, started paying off some exotics for simo at track odds, and have finally delivered things like the 14% pick 4 at PM at 14%. They are also in the process of looking at dropping takeout 4% for super exotics and 2% for all others via horsemen groups and the Canadian Pari-mutuel agency. This might be done in 2011, but we will be watching.

California? All they have done is raise takeout and called horseplayers names. That, as Rook said, is why that jurisdiction is the most hated one for horseplayers, perhaps in history.

The two jurisdictions are apples and oranges. However, when the apple does something bad (despite doing some things good) horseplayers (as Jeff noted) will be alerted.

Dean, you know damn well what this is about so don't play to the posters who don't. I don't have a problem with Jeffs actions on this at all. This is about you and your friend on the board. This is about twisting the truth and trying to minimize a couple of California Horseplayers. You can go ahead and posture in your posts and you may find some sympathy. Trying to discredit and trash me and rwwupl is about as low as it gets when you consider all the stuff we've done on behalf of Horseplayers in California.

This is about politics and this is about the truth being inconvenient for you. When something happens in California I post it whether I like it or not. I also follow up with an emai to the CHRB or whoever is causing the problem. Again, you can rewrite history or you can tell the truth no matter how inconvenient it is for a HANA board member.

Yes, the leadership in California is bad and needs to be replaced and called out. Yes, a boycott is warranted. What's not warranted is people who are supposed to be leading like yourself being hypocrites. The Canadian players should have been the first to start a thread about this.

Start being specific Dean and quit posturing for the benefit of people who don't know the truth.

[DeanT]

Are you still carrying on about something we chatted about two and a a half weeks ago? We settled that, but apparently we did not, since your post is a rehash of that.

My post has nothing to do with you, Roger, or the man on the moon. You asked why Canadian HANA members are not doing anything about Woodbine and I answered what we have done the last 24 months with Woodbine. You asked why it is different about it and CA and I answered that as well. if you do not like the answer, that is fine, but stop with the stuff about lying or whatever it is you are continually going on about.

If you have such a problem with me, email. Otherwise please stop using Woodbine threads with a real issue to Canadian horseplayers that HANA is trying to work on to talk about how you dont like me.

[andymays]

Are you still carrying on about something we chatted about two and a a half weeks ago? We settled that, but apparently we did not, since your post is a rehash of that.

My post has nothing to do with you, Roger, or the man on the moon. You asked why Canadian HANA members are not doing anything about Woodbine and I answered what we have done the last 24 months with Woodbine. You asked why it is different about it and CA and I answered that as well. if you do not like the answer, that is fine, but stop with the stuff about lying or whatever it is you are continually going on about.
If you have such a problem with me, email. Otherwise please stop using Woodbine threads with a real issue to Canadian horseplayers that HANA is trying to work on to talk about how you dont like me.

Hypocrisy on the part of a leader on the board of an organization that resresents Horseplayers is a big deal to me. It is a big deal to me when a couple of board members try to trash a couple of California Horseplayers.

If you're a leader then try acting like one. As I said earlier I'm sure you will find sympathy from the uninformed.

We all want California and other jurisdictions to think twice before the raise takeout again. I want you to think twice about trashing a couple of California Horseplayers again.

[DeanT]

If you're a leader then try acting like one.

That is exactly what I did Andy - be a leader.

Your and Roger's idea about promoting CA racing through a 10% pick 4 after they raised take on us, I thought was not only bad precedent, but also doomed to never-be-passed. I told you so. I will never back down when someone has what I think is a bad idea, and I expect each HANA member to not back down if they feel strongly that an idea I have is bad as well.

That is how organizations grow, develop policy and evolve.

Despite the name calling and so on, I will listen to your next idea with a clean slate. As I will with Roger, and I will again form an opinion. If it is not agreeable to you, then I will now know what to expect; but that will not stop me from having an opinion.

[andymays]

That is exactly what I did Andy - be a leader.

Your and Roger's idea about promoting CA racing through a 10% pick 4 after they raised take on us, I thought was not only bad precedent, but also doomed to never-be-passed. I told you so. I will never back down when someone has what I think is a bad idea, and I expect each HANA member to not back down if they feel strongly that an idea I have is bad as well.

That is how organizations grow, develop policy and evolve.
Despite the name calling and so on, I will listen to your next idea with a clean slate. As I will with Roger, and I will again form an opinion. If it is not agreeable to you, then I will now know what to expect; but that will not stop me from having an opinion.

You can do everyone a favor by growing, developing, and evolving in an even handed manner.

I'd still like to know how a pick 4 with 10% takeout is a bad thing because earlier in the year Jeff was all for it.

We probably ought to let this thread die. We both know what we know.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

T Don't you find it strange that I put up a thread about this?

This is nothing new. It isn't just a Breeders' Cup situation (Woodbine does this on California wagers as well as Kentucky wagers and a few more that have lower than 25% takeouts on certain exotics). This has been done by Woodbine since they moved from their own US pools to commingling pools.
I'm sure I started a thread about this at least a couple of times.

Maybe you can start another thread in 6 months and ask "why are you the one that has to start a thread on this?"

As Dean said, Woodbine is making progress in the right direction of late.

[andymays]

This is nothing new. It isn't just a Breeders' Cup situation (Woodbine does this on California wagers as well as Kentucky wagers and a few more that have lower than 25% takeouts on certain exotics). This has been done by Woodbine since they moved from their own US pools to commingling pools.
I'm sure I started a thread about this at least a couple of times.

Maybe you can start another thread in 6 months and ask "why are you the one that has to start a thread on this?"

As Dean said, Woodbine is making progress in the right direction of late.

:lol:

Are you serious? Does Woodbine have anything to do with charging higher takeout for the Breeders Cup or not?

Wouldn't they be making progress if they stopped stealing from their customers or is it Ok to keep stealing because they've done it all along?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

:lol:

Are you serious? Does Woodbine have anything to do with charging higher takeout for the Breeders Cup or not?

Wouldn't they be making progress if they stopped stealing from their customers or is it Ok to keep stealing because they've done it all along?
A year ago, they were paying less on Pick 4's and Pick 6's as well. Earlier this year, they decided to pay track odds on those two bets.
Yes, they should pay track odds on every bet, but this is what I meant by making progress in the right direction.

Again, they are looking to get rid of the 2% takeout charge for Horsemen (4% on triactors). I believe this is more than just lip service.

[andymays]

A year ago, they were paying less on Pick 4's and Pick 6's as well. Earlier this year, they decided to pay track odds on those two bets.
Yes, they should pay track odds on every bet, but this is what I meant by making progress in the right direction.

Again, they are looking to get rid of the 2% takeout charge for Horsemen (4% on triactors). I believe this is more than just lip service.

You have to make a better case. California had lower takeout for years and they haven't even raised it yet. How do you make the case that California needs to be punished when they haven't actually started stealing from us? Woodbine has been stealing from Horseplayers for years and his is a high profile example.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

You have to make a better case. California had lower takeout for years and they haven't even raised it yet. How do you make the case that California needs to be punished when they haven't actually started stealing from us? Woodbine has been stealing from Horseplayers for years and his is a high profile example.
Is there a chance California is going to rescind the takeout hike?
As for a better case. I guess you want a better case, but I'm satisfied with the case presented so far. We are in fact two different people with two different perspectives. I'll bet we don't even agree on which horses will win each Breeders' Cup race too.

[andymays]

Is there a chance California is going to rescind the takeout hike?

No, no chance. In fact I think they'll have to raise it again next year to stay in business.

As I've said I'm for a boycott. Just get it right.