WORKFORCE doubtful

[UK View]

Ground much too firm apparently. May not be risked.

[woodtoo]

Can't he just wear cushion shoes ? :D

[Nets]

We have had maybe 2 days with any rain in the last several months here in Kentucky. And those rains were intermittent at best. So the turf is going to be VERY firm. Just an FYI.

[cj]

You think he could have found that out before flying across the ocean. Don't they have the internet in England any longer?

[horses4courses]

You think he could have found that out before flying across the ocean. Don't they have the internet in England any longer?

No internet there since the US outlawed betting with their bookmakers.

It's been smoke signals and stone tablets ever since..............

[Charlie D]

You think he could have found that out before flying across the ocean. Don't they have the internet in England any longer?


You'd think owner who runs loads of horses in US would not if he thought it were risky, dangerous or whatever. You'd think trainer would not send Conduit etc if he thought it risky, dangerous or whatever.

These people have me shaking my head tbh.

[Market Mover]

We have had maybe 2 days with any rain in the last several months here in Kentucky. And those rains were intermittent at best. So the turf is going to be VERY firm. Just an FYI.


Which European in the BC Turf would benefit the most from rock-hard firm turf?

[nearco]

Do they not have sprinklers at CD?

[Charlie D]

Which European in the BC Turf would benefit the most from rock-hard firm turf?


Without checking i'm not 100%, but i'll take a guess at, no Euro has raced on rock-hard Firm turf.

[Rackon]

Do they not have sprinklers at CD?

CD has an irrigation system in their turf course, which watered is watered every night.

I suspect this is a little gamesmanship pressure being applied to CD management and Butch Lehr, the track superintendent. Since rain is possible Thursday thru Friday morning, I think he will be very cautious about adding a lot of extra water. The Workforce camp doesn't appear to be happy about much anyway.

It looked like they had the dogs set out pretty far so with a good number of turf horses pounding away out there in the middle of the course I'm sure it's harder than what the Euros are used to. Even in a non-drought year KY ain't as wet as the UK. I doubt the track is dangerous, but I'm sure right now it's much firmer than what Workforce has been racing on.

[nearco]

Very Firm ground, at least the American version, is pretty much unheard of in Europe. Even though it rains all the time in England, Ireland and northern France, they will still turn the sprinklers on at the first sight of anything approaching hard ground.

[Charlie D]

Very Firm ground, at least the American version, is pretty much unheard of in Europe. Even though it rains all the time in England, Ireland and northern France, they will still turn the sprinklers on at the first sight of anything approaching hard ground.

They turn sprinklers on when they don'y need to on a regular basis


BTW, is there any moaing from connections of Goldi, Midday etc??

[UK View]

You'd think owner who runs loads of horses in US would not if he thought it were risky, dangerous or whatever. You'd think trainer would not send Conduit etc if he thought it risky, dangerous or whatever.

These people have me shaking my head tbh.


Workforce is much more valuable than Conduit and he may race on again as a 4yo. I don't think they are complaining about the ground just concerned he may get jarred up on it.

Here are a couple of comments from connections this year....

On Good to Firm after the Derby....
The boss prepared him beautifully toget him to here. I expected him to run well, I was worried about the ground. He's just improved from the Dante.

Talking about his King George defeat....
I think maybe the King George came too soon after Epsom and he was running on firm ground. He just didn't settle and he was never going to win at Ascot

To me that sounds like they probably won't risk him.

[UK View]

Which European in the BC Turf would benefit the most from rock-hard firm turf?


Dangerous Midge would be the most likely but may not be classy enough.

[hencicleva]

Even though it rains all the time in England, Ireland and northern France, they will still turn the sprinklers on at the first sight of anything approaching hard ground.

Average annual rainfall

Newmarket, England 21.49"
Louisville, KY 43.56"

[nearco]

Even though it rains all the time in England, Ireland and northern France, they will still turn the sprinklers on at the first sight of anything approaching hard ground.

Average annual rainfall

Newmarket, England 21.49"
Louisville, KY 43.56"

You seem to be confusing total amount of rainfall with frequency. You will not get the long dry spells and heat in northern Europe that you get in KY or other parts of the Midwest. Likewise you generally don't get the massive gully washing showers that drop numerous inches of rain in a matter of a few short hours in Newmarket. What you will get is frequent light rains and mild temps.

[hencicleva]

No, I agree with you, I just thought it was a surprizing stat when I looked it up. My horses have suffered all summer from hard ground here in Virginia, it's been brutal.

[Pick6]

You seem to be confusing total amount of rainfall with frequency. You will not get the long dry spells and heat in northern Europe that you get in KY or other parts of the Midwest. Likewise you generally don't get the massive gully washing showers that drop numerous inches of rain in a matter of a few short hours in Newmarket. What you will get is frequent light rains and mild temps.
Soil comp would explain a lot of this. I have no idea if they add sand to the coiurse, but high clay soil gets hard naturally.

[nearco]

Yes, there's definitely all kinds of variables, soil comp, climate, frequency if rain etc.

While there definitely is different interpretations of going on either side of the Atlantic, I find it hard to believe that the course is that hard. Seems like there would be plenty of other Euros complaining if it truly was that hard. I think that Workforces connection are engaging in a bit of gamesmanship as another poster mentioned. It's known he prefers a bit of cut in the ground.

[WinterTriangle]

You think he could have found that out before flying across the ocean. Don't they have the internet in England any longer?

I was reading that Stout and some of the Euro trainers were told the turf wouldn't be rock hard, and that is why they even planned to come here. and it was brought up during the summer ----a member of stout's team was involved in the discussion. The euros don't like hard fast turf's its not as safe.

They also put a ton more water on the course than we do here. So, yeah, rock hard turf is unheard of in Europe as another poster said

[andymays]

Stoute Satisfied with Churchill Turf Course | BloodHorse.com

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59675/stoute-satisfied-with-churchill-turf-course

Excerpt:

Stoute walked the course with jockey Ryan Moore Nov. 3, and came back with a bit more confidence in the ability of the course to soften to the degree he desires by Saturday, Nov. 6.

"The track is in wonderful shape, and it has good cover," he said afterward. "It’s firmer than we’d like, and there has not been enough rain. We’ll monitor it each day."

[Rackon]

Stoute Satisfied with Churchill Turf Course | BloodHorse.com

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59675/stoute-satisfied-with-churchill-turf-course

Excerpt:

Stoute walked the course with jockey Ryan Moore Nov. 3, and came back with a bit more confidence in the ability of the course to soften to the degree he desires by Saturday, Nov. 6.

"The track is in wonderful shape, and it has good cover," he said afterward. "It’s firmer than we’d like, and there has not been enough rain. We’ll monitor it each day."

Much as I suspected.

I suspect by race day th course will be a bit softer than the CA turfers would like and a bit firmer than the Euros would prefer.

[Linny]

Even during a dry spell the course is not going to be as hard and dry as during summer when the high sun and long days bake it. The CD course is like a rock in the early summer if they go 5-6 days without rain. In November it's a different story.

[nearco]

To underscore how going is viewed differently on either side of the pond, several US jockeys described the turf course as soft..... LOL :D :D


The turf, described as "hard" and "rattling" this week, has been the hottest topic among European connections during the Breeders' Cup build-up, but dual Breeders' Cup winner Rafael Bejarano was one of many offering a different opinion after horses raced on the 7f oval.

Bejarano, who was winning his 400th race at Churchill Downs aboard the Sheikh Mohammed-owned Distant Sky, said: "It's a little soft, but I think it will be good for Friday and Saturday."

Even more dubious of European accusations was Tony Farina, who said: "It's soft. The fence is out very wide, so it's hard to tell, but it's definitely not too firm. I'd say it's similar to European ground."

Shaun Bridgmohan, another to ride in the event, said: "It's good ground. I thought it was fine."

In the same vein, Jamie Theriot said: "The turf is great. It's certainly not too firm."

Has Farina ridden in Europe?