View Full Version : Breeders’ Cup Tension Beginning to Percolate under Tough Questioning
andymays
10-28-2010, 07:05 AM
http://www.horseraceinsider.com/John-Pricci/comments/10272010-breeders-cup-tension-beginning-to-percolate/#comments
Excerpt:
Head ultimately was asked to compare the 2010 campaigns of both mares. “In America there are many more Grade 1s restricted to fillies than we have in Europe. So if you want to win a Group 1, you have to face the very best horses.
Excerpt:
Zenyatta’s 2010 racing schedule attracted some tough questions. The first time, as a reporter was questioning her restricted campaign at length, an odd technical glitch left the question hanging. Then Shirreffs was asked why he never ran Zenyatta in the Pacific Classic or Hollywood Gold Cup:
Turkoman
10-28-2010, 07:30 AM
Very interesting answers by Mr. Shirreffs. I like this part:
“She doesn’t like Del Mar,” the trainer said.
“But you ran her [in the Clement Hirsch],” the reporter said.
“I didn’t want to run her at a mile and a quarter on that track.”
“Why didn’t you run her in the Hollywood Gold Cup?” the reporter followed-up.
“Because we planned on running in the Vanity,” said Shirreffs.
andymays
10-28-2010, 07:32 AM
Very interesting answers by Mr. Shirreffs. I like this part:
“She doesn’t like Del Mar,” the trainer said.
“But you ran her [in the Clement Hirsch],” the reporter said.
“I didn’t want to run her at a mile and a quarter on that track.”
“Why didn’t you run her in the Hollywood Gold Cup?” the reporter followed-up.
“Because we planned on running in the Vanity,” said Shirreffs.
It's called dancing.
Most reporters (especially out west) were scared to ask tough questions during the year. It's about time someone asked these questions.
:sleeping::sleeping:
Hard questions?
Try 60 Minutes.
This stuff has zero to do with the coming races next week.
Therefore, it is boring.
What answers would improve your life?
andymays
10-28-2010, 07:47 AM
:sleeping::sleeping:
Hard questions?
Try 60 Minutes.
This stuff has zero to do with the coming races next week.
Therefore, it is boring.
What answers would improve your life?
60 Minutes going to drive down the price on Zenyatta. That's a good thing if you don't like her to win. Not so good if you like her to win.
garyscpa
10-28-2010, 08:59 AM
60 Minutes going to drive down the price on Zenyatta. That's a good thing if you don't like her to win. Not so good if you like her to win.
I like it! I like it! :)
OK, so 60 Minutes will drive down the price?
Surely not amongst the knowledgeable players, so it must be....NEW people coming on board. new faces, new money?
So, Zenyatta is GOOD for racing? And good for knowledgeable bettors, who stand to clean up next week due to the deflated odds?
And being new, none of them will give a crap about her soft schedule this year?
I guess she is a disgrace to the game after all! :rolleyes::D
bdownes
10-28-2010, 10:09 AM
I don't get why some are ticked. What do u think Moss and Sheriffs wanted to accomplish this year?
A. Beat Rachel B. Stay undefeated and C. Win the BC Classic again. Well.. Rachel didn't run in the Apple Blossom and was retired. Zenyatta is still undefeated going into the BC Classic and she seems to be peak condition to defend her crown in the BC Classic against another incredible group of contenders.
OntheRail
10-28-2010, 10:44 AM
This quote is the core of it all with many.
“Yes, [Goldikova has the more impressive resume]. She runs in tougher races. It’s different running in real Grade 1 races. Grade 1s for females are not as good as [open] Grade 1s.”
DJofSD
10-28-2010, 11:04 AM
"Good for racing." That expression means different things to different people.
Most of the time when race tracks officials talk about what's good for racing what they really mean is more people on track or at the OTB which in turn means more money being spent for admission, parking, food, and at the betting window. It's all about the money flowing out of the wallets and hand bags and into the bank account of the race tracks, OTB, etc.
So, is Zen running in the BCC good for racing? If all that is important is how much money is taken in b/c folks saw the 60 minutes piece and are now betting on her in the BCC. Sure. Will most of the people care about what happens with Zen in the future, whether she will be retired or campaigned in 2011, I don't think so.
Pick6
10-28-2010, 12:52 PM
Was there any doubt Zenyatta was being pointed toward 2010 BCC? Why is this even a topic for discussion? If I own the probable favorite for the 2010 BCC, a $5,000,000 race, why even bother with anything but the campaign that would give my horse the best chance of winning the big one? Anything else makes no sense at all. Shirreffs has campaigned Zenyatta exactly for this.
I don't get why some are ticked. What do u think Moss and Sheriffs wanted to accomplish this year?
A. Beat Rachel B. Stay undefeated and C. Win the BC Classic again. Well.. Rachel didn't run in the Apple Blossom and was retired. Zenyatta is still undefeated going into the BC Classic and she seems to be peak condition to defend her crown in the BC Classic against another incredible group of contenders.
If they really wanted to beat Rachel, she was there for the taking in the Personal Ensign.
BluegrassProf
10-28-2010, 01:09 PM
If I own the probable favorite for the 2010 BCC, a $5,000,000 race, why even bother with anything but the campaign that would give my horse the best chance of winning the big one? Anything else makes no sense at all.Succinctly-put, and a terrifying reality.
Sad turn for an historic sport, methinks. So much for the grand ol' game.
tucker6
10-28-2010, 01:49 PM
Zenyatta is still undefeated going into the BC Classic and she seems to be peak condition to defend her crown in the BC Classic against another incredible group of contenders.I don't know about you, but I never thought to use the word, "incredible", to describe this bunch.
I don't know about you, but I never thought to use the word, "incredible", to describe this bunch.
It's amazing how Blame, Lucky, etc have been demoted from "wait until she meets races the best horses on REAL DIRT" to headliners in an average Classic.
It happened around the time it became clear Zenyatta would run in the Classic.
If they really wanted to beat Rachel, she was there for the taking in the Personal Ensign.
I think this is slightly delusional. It was up to RA and connections to prove how good they were by then, not vice versa.
I thought they did that against Zardana? :rolleyes:
(kidding.....unload them Glocks!)
I think this is slightly delusional. It was up to RA and connections to prove how good they were by then, not vice versa.
Why, neither had done anything of note up to that point...and still haven't. It was a duck, pure and simple.
Remember, she is better on dirt and she is best at 10f...according to her connections. Those damn Rockies.
BluegrassProf
10-28-2010, 02:47 PM
the best horses on REAL DIRT [vs.] headliners in an average ClassicThe two aren't mutually exclusive.
For those that maintain the position, it happened around the time everyone knew who was going to the Classic.
The inclusion of Zenyatta in the BCC field is, for this purpose, irrelevant. The best horses of the year are meeting on real dirt, and our impression of this field thus far is only so lofty (a notion that's actually supported by the "Zen's clear dominance = HoY 2010" contingency). Easy breezy.
Pick6
10-28-2010, 03:24 PM
It's amazing how Blame, Lucky, etc have been demoted from "wait until she meets races the best horses on REAL DIRT" to headliners in an average Classic.
It happened around the time it became clear Zenyatta would run in the Classic.
I don't think this view is yet universal. But it will certainly be espoused by most afterward if she indeed wins. This should not be surprising and I indicated such several months ago.
jelly
10-28-2010, 04:07 PM
I don't get why some are ticked. What do u think Moss and Sheriffs wanted to accomplish this year?
A. Beat Rachel B. Stay undefeated and C. Win the BC Classic again. Well.. Rachel didn't run in the Apple Blossom and was retired. Zenyatta is still undefeated going into the BC Classic and she seems to be peak condition to defend her crown in the BC Classic against another incredible group of contenders.
What makes this group so incredible?
PaceAdvantage
10-28-2010, 05:53 PM
Why, neither had done anything of note up to that point...and still haven't. It was a duck, pure and simple.
Remember, she is better on dirt and she is best at 10f...according to her connections. Those damn Rockies.As far as debates go, you seem to be leading this one with your sound logic.
PaceAdvantage
10-28-2010, 05:54 PM
I don't think this view is yet universal. But it will certainly be espoused by most afterward if she indeed wins. This should not be surprising and I indicated such several months ago.So the obvious should just be ignored?
It's just a footnote anyway. She actually has to win first.
Pick6
10-28-2010, 05:55 PM
So the obvious should just be ignored?
It's just a footnote anyway. She actually has to win first.
At least I did not say "when she wins".
I seem to recall you posting something on the order of "she should not be entered in this race", or something to that effect. If that is true, do you still hold that position?
JustRalph
10-28-2010, 05:55 PM
[/COLOR]
What makes this group so incredible?
They were able to ship............and cross the rockies
Why, neither had done anything of note up to that point...and still haven't. It was a duck, pure and simple.
Remember, she is better on dirt and she is best at 10f...according to her connections. Those damn Rockies.
Zenyatta had notched multiple G1 victories whereas RA had lost to the mighty Zardana and Unrivaled Belle. If one reputation was dented, it wasn't Zenyatta's, she kept doing what she did last year and the year before.
Zenyatta had notched multiple G1 victories whereas RA had lost to the mighty Zardana and Unrivaled Belle. If one reputation was dented, it wasn't Zenyatta's, she kept doing what she did last year and the year before.
Exactly...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
I don't think this view is yet universal. But it will certainly be espoused by most afterward if she indeed wins. This should not be surprising and I indicated such several months ago.
If she wins you'll also hear cries a la 'why didn't they give her up a proper campaign blablabla'?
Some people will never appreciate her, and keep thinking of new arguments. It is their loss.
Exactly...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Well, go out and beat her if it's that simple.
Pick6
10-28-2010, 06:11 PM
If she wins you'll also hear cries a la 'why didn't they give her up a proper campaign blablabla'?
Some people will never appreciate her, and keep thinking of new arguments. It is their loss.
Of course. If she wins the excuses will be flying left and right. Poor field, tiring track, too fast pace, horses were short, easy campaign, bad riding, poly training, BCC overrated, etc.
Of course. If she wins the excuses will be flying left and right. Poor field, tiring track, too fast pace, horses were short, easy campaign, bad riding, poly training, BCC overrated, etc.
You are forgetting that she never ran on the East Coast. Unforgivable.
Pick6
10-28-2010, 06:15 PM
You are forgetting that she never ran on the East Coast. Unforgivable.
I forgot about that. She never shipped, never crossed the rockies, and she never ran on dirt. She also never searched out RA for a match.
CincyHorseplayer
10-28-2010, 06:36 PM
I can't wait for the BC.It's only 100 miles south,so I can shut some of you Zenyatites up for making me listen to your mouths endlessly for 2 years.Mouth might not work so well afterwards!!!!:lol:
Just kidding!!
barchetta6
10-28-2010, 07:31 PM
Moss and Sheriffs have done a masterful job avoiding the competition. Staying in CA and keeping her on that plastic stuff against mares. Things will be quite different at this years BCC. Last year she beat horses who prefer turf or dirt. Name a top quality Poly horse in last year's BCC. Now I suppose Sheriff's will have all the outs when she runs up the track. "Didn't like CD". "Didn't care for the dirt". "Didn't travel well". Finally she has to race top MALES on a surface they prefer at a neutral site outside of CA. If she does pull this off my hat's off. What Goldikova is doing is more remarkable. Crossing the pond and beating up on Males.
sandpit
10-28-2010, 07:32 PM
[/COLOR]
What makes this group so incredible?
From the Oct. 27 Churchill Downs barn notes: "How strong is the field pre-entered for the $5 million Breeders’ Cup Classic? Try these figures on for size: There are eight Grade I winners among the 16 pre-entrants and nine millionaires. Combined, the field has won 49 percent of its starts, cumulatively winning 65 graded stakes including 34 Grade I events."
JustRalph
10-28-2010, 07:42 PM
Exactly...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
:lol: :lol:
No better case could be made ................. :lol:
What Goldikova is doing is more remarkable. Crossing the pond and beating up on Males.
No, it is not. This race is soup cans.
What she did over there was impressive.
Coming here she is slumming.
Was she scared to go the Arc? :rolleyes:
What has she got to prove at a mile? Been there done that.
Twice at BC. Why no new challenges? I say she is ducking and just doing the same old boring crap once again. And on grass of all things. Afraid of dirt?
Well, go out and beat her if it's that simple.
Well, again, nobody wants to run on that crap that doesn't live there. The whole point was a Z fan said the #1 goal was to beat Rachel, and I said the opportunity was there.
She was also hidden in female races because they were afraid of "The Highest Mountain" Rail Trip, the same one that lost the Hollywood Gold Cup to the unforgettable Awesome Gem and was demolished in the JCGC by the immortal Haynesfield.
WinterTriangle
10-29-2010, 01:38 AM
“In America there are many more Grade 1s restricted to fillies than we have in Europe. "
It's not like Zenyatta was the only filly or is the only mare racing in America.
This seems a a rather damaging quote when applied to US racing in general........and therefore one I don't agree with.
Cardus
10-29-2010, 02:57 AM
It's not like Zenyatta was the only filly or is the only mare racing in America.
This seems a a rather damaging quote when applied to US racing in general........and therefore one I don't agree with.
You disagree with the quote because it's untrue or that you don't like it?
Your post states that you disagree with Head's quote because it is "damaging to US (sic) racing in general."
Wouldn't it be more intellectually suitable to disagree with Head because it wasn't true?
"Head ultimately was asked to compare the 2010 campaigns of both mares. “In America there are many more Grade 1s restricted to fillies than we have in Europe. So if you want to win a Group 1, you have to face the very best horses.
“Yes, [Goldikova has the more impressive resume]. She runs in tougher races. It’s different running in real Grade 1 races. Grade 1s for females are not as good as [open] Grade 1s.”
How is his quote "damaging to US (sic) racing in general?" Is it not true that there are more Grade (Group) 1s restricted to fillies than in Europe? If so, what is the difference in number of races?
Well, again, nobody wants to run on that crap that doesn't live there. The whole point was a Z fan said the #1 goal was to beat Rachel, and I said the opportunity was there.
She was also hidden in female races because they were afraid of "The Highest Mountain" Rail Trip, the same one that lost the Hollywood Gold Cup to the unforgettable Awesome Gem and was demolished in the JCGC by the immortal Haynesfield.
Ah right. RA didn't face Zenyatta because of the surface. Then there is the Apple Blossom of course, but anyway.
No disrespect to RA, but by the time of the PE it was pretty clear that she had something to prove. I can understand why they didn't want to face Zenyatta on dirt or synthetics. A creditable defeat to her would have been costly. It would have exposed her as the number two mare. Now they can spin it as the best ever who had problems in her 4yo season.
Linny
10-29-2010, 10:22 AM
Head's point is true. In Europe, particularly France there are not alot of G1's for females. There are the classics and a couple of other big events but nothing like the array offered in the US for fillies and mares. Typically after the summer of their 3yo season females at G1 levels in France face males almost exclusively. Look up Miesque and others, it's quite typical. Three year old fillies run in the Arc alot and for a while they were winning alot too. That is the equal of a 3yo filly running in the BCC. We don't do it because there is no reason to.
That is is "negative" about US racing is moot. It's true. The US has a sequence of G1's for females in each part of the country. In fact, rare is the US based female who runs against boys.
Linny
10-29-2010, 10:25 AM
No, it is not. This race is soup cans.
What she did over there was impressive.
Coming here she is slumming.
Was she scared to go the Arc? :rolleyes:
What has she got to prove at a mile? Been there done that.
Twice at BC. Why no new challenges? I say she is ducking and just doing the same old boring crap once again. And on grass of all things. Afraid of dirt?
By the same token I could argue that Z should try grass or sprint because what else has she to prove?
Robert Fischer
10-29-2010, 11:30 AM
where are the tough questions or the tension??
major disappointment
i don't have it locked and stocked, but IIRC this so called "hrinsider.." has issued a number of "false alarm" fluffys that again IIRC the original poster has been using to start multiple threads...
I had to stop mid paragraph, but this was about Goldikova and Zenyatta? 2 entirely different continents much less divisional differences...
hasn't workforce, Behkabad, etc... of the BC entries had a better year also?
Sea the Stars crushed Rachel for HOY right?
:sleeping:
By the same token I could argue that Z should try grass or sprint because what else has she to prove?
Gr 1 males on dirt.....and that is exactly what she is doing next.
That post was tongue in cheek, btw!:D
Steve R
10-29-2010, 12:36 PM
From the Oct. 27 Churchill Downs barn notes: "How strong is the field pre-entered for the $5 million Breeders’ Cup Classic? Try these figures on for size: There are eight Grade I winners among the 16 pre-entrants and nine millionaires. Combined, the field has won 49 percent of its starts, cumulatively winning 65 graded stakes including 34 Grade I events."
A Grade 1 designation tells you nothing about the strength of that race. If you think the quality of the G1 winners in this year's Classic even remotely compares with the quality of the G1 winners in the recent Classics from 2000, 2001, 2004 or 2006 then good luck with that. 2005, maybe.
PaceAdvantage
10-29-2010, 06:33 PM
Now they can spin it as the best ever who had problems in her 4yo season.The only ones spinning about best ever are the Zenyatta fanatics.
That's a key point you seem to be missing.
Stillriledup
10-29-2010, 06:37 PM
The only ones spinning about best ever are the Zenyatta fanatics.
That's a key point you seem to be missing.
I'm not even sure she's top 50 all time. She's never beaten males on conventional dirt in her career, its hard to argue top 50 ever on that basis. Now, i'd consider her top 50 FEMALES of all time, but that's about it.
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