Who Makes a Living from Low-Odds Horses?

[lansdale]

I've posted here about being a (relative) long-shot player, and I've read posts here from those whose action is mostly at low odds. I remember arkansasman and Dave Schwartz being among them. Given the current influence of whale money in the game, I'm impressed by anyone capable of doing this - I'm assuming these are mainly database players. Just out of curiosity, I'd like to hear from anyone who makes a living only on bets below 4-1, or who even has an edge below that odds-level. Thanks for any help.

Cheers,

lansdale

[SchagFactorToWin]

I play low odds horses in exactas. Half of my profits come from them.

[lansdale]

I play low odds horses in exactas. Half of my profits come from them.

SFTW,

I should have been clearer about this. I was really only referring to win only, but I'm sure making money with low-odds exactas is also tough. I think the thunderous response is an index of how difficult it is. By profits, I assume you mean you're playing with a long-term edge.

Cheers,

lansdale

[misscashalot]

SFTW,

I should have been clearer about this. I was really only referring to win only, but I'm sure making money with low-odds exactas is also tough. I think the thunderous response is an index of how difficult it is. By profits, I assume you mean you're playing with a long-term edge.

Cheers,

lansdale

The best way to answer is that the curious should keep a database with some pertinent info, and he may find a profitable answer to the question. Undoubtedly there are some here who are doing it. Why should they give the secret away. I think that is why this post has little action.

[lansdale]

The best way to answer is that the curious should keep a database with some pertinent info, and he may find a profitable answer to the question. Undoubtedly there are some here who are doing it. Why should they give the secret away. I think that is why this post has little action.

Hi misscashalot,

As I said, I'm just trying to get an idea of how many people play this way - I suspect the number is not large, which is why the response isn't overwhelming. I'm not looking to change my own style of play or get anyone to divulge anything they consider proprietary. Thanks.

Cheers,

lansdale

[Dave Schwartz]

Just for the record, I no longer play as many low-odds horses as I used to.


Dave

[fmolf]

just because a horse is 2/1 or even 8/5 does not make it an underlay.The horses could very well be overlays in my estimation and then i would bet them like i would a higher priced horse.More often than not i will use the solid overbet fav. in the exactas with horses that figure but are paying off at nice odds in the exacta(I use Meadows' chart as my guidefor this).

[misscashalot]

Just for the record, I no longer play as many low-odds horses as I used to.


Dave

It's not like you have to feel ashamed to be a bottom fisher.

[lansdale]

Just for the record, I no longer play as many low-odds horses as I used to.


Dave

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your reply. What you say seems to imply that the whale-zone is continuing to expand in ways that are hurting the rest of us. I would guess that the small-field-syndrome is also part of the problem. Dick Schmidt recently cited both in talking about his decision to move his action to Forex. When someone that good is affected, you know it's getting tougher.

The reason I posted, is that I think Dick Mitchell's old chestnut about most of his profits coming from a few longshot plays is now more true than ever for those who are surviving. May start another (more productive) thread about that.

Cheers,

lansdale

[dansan]

I've read you need to bet 4k a day to make 50k a year and some years you'll make 80k and other 20k you not going to do that playing favorites

[lansdale]

just because a horse is 2/1 or even 8/5 does not make it an underlay.The horses could very well be overlays in my estimation and then i would bet them like i would a higher priced horse.More often than not i will use the solid overbet fav. in the exactas with horses that figure but are paying off at nice odds in the exacta(I use Meadows' chart as my guidefor this).

Hi fmolf,

The question I asked was not about underlays or overlays, but only about what can be objectively measured - who makes a profit betting only on horses lower than 4-1? You didn't really answer this question. One comment though - if you keep records, I'd be curious to know your long-term ROI on 8/5 horses. Even Tom Brohamer finally realized he wasn't making any money on horses going off that low. Thanks for your reply.

Cheers,

lansdale

[Dave Schwartz]

Lansdale,

Don't misunderstand - the "favorites" (i.e. low-priced) horses I play are still profitable. I just cannot play them very often. Most of the time the ones that are playable are odds-on and, the way I view the race, underbet.

What has changed by the whales is that the second choice is the whales' castoff.


Dave

[CBedo]

My margin is definitely lower on the lower odds horses, but overall dollars of profit is higher.

[salty]

I think using the Favorite is important when going for any vertical exotic bet. Always remember the favorite hits the board around 70% (don't hammer me if i am off by 5). and exactas can still pay a hundred dollars with the favorite and a longshot. Tri's still pay well with favorites also. You can't sit around all day waiting for the one time where you can get a tri with the favorite out. Odds are you will go get a beer come back and find out you missed your chance.

[castaway01]

Hi misscashalot,

As I said, I'm just trying to get an idea of how many people play this way - I suspect the number is not large, which is why the response isn't overwhelming. I'm not looking to change my own style of play or get anyone to divulge anything they consider proprietary. Thanks.

Cheers,

lansdale

Since you said "win only", if you're talking about odds-on horses...well, I'm not saying it's impossible, but you'd have to be very, very good and get some excellent rebates. There are some people on this site who have those capabilities, but it would be a very tough way to go.

If you're talking 3-1 as low odds, that's probably my average winner and I think it's possible to succeed this way if you're patient and don't bet too many of those 4-5s I mentioned earlier, but it really depends on the person and how solid their advantage is.

[mountainman]

just because a horse is 2/1 or even 8/5 does not make it an underlay.

Never played Mnr I assume?

[lansdale]

Lansdale,

Don't misunderstand - the "favorites" (i.e. low-priced) horses I play are still profitable. I just cannot play them very often. Most of the time the ones that are playable are odds-on and, the way I view the race, underbet.

What has changed by the whales is that the second choice is the whales' castoff.


Dave

That's how I understood it.

[fmolf]

Never played Mnr I assume? :lol: ....outstanding!

[fmolf]

That's how I understood it.
My ROI on straight win bets beneath 2/1 is 1.10 not huge but on exactas involving the same horse on top i am a bit below 1.20...You can make money as the whales do by wagering large sums....I am more of a smaller bettor.I have learned to pass races and be more selective in the horses i do bet.It took me many years to develop this patience.I used to be a player who might have wagered on 7 or 8 races on a nine race card.Now i might play four on the same card.

[CincyHorseplayer]

When I arrived on this board a few years ago I was a rabid exacta player and had had some hellacious meets where I crushed and was uber confident in what I was doing.

That has changed in just a few short years.Exacta prices IMO have plummeted so badly that I cannot withstand the holdouts between winning runs.

I have gone back to the basics and what you say in this thread about low priced horses has been a very big staple.I never bet horses to win under 2-1 though,that is key,but will gladly bet horses there all day if they should be 1-1.In fact horses in the 2-1,5/2,3-1 range win often enough that it is a nice fabric to build off of.Since 2001 horses in the 7/2 to 6-1 range win for me at a 25-30% clip.But the 2-1,5/2,3-1 horses routinely get a 38-43-49% etc or so clip.

You can build a foundation on that and that has been big for me because I don't have an endless bankroll at my disposal and I want to stay in the game.A 35% hit rate at a 3-1 avg mutuel is a 40% ROI.I can maintain calm without my head exploding knowing that I have something working for me while I'm waiting on my exotic big dogs to come rolling across the wire.What used to be even $35-50 exactas are now $15.60-24.10.James Quinn really impressed that idea into me and I have resisted it at times.Now it seems like one of my best friends.Look at it like both Linus'(from Charlie Brown)security blanket and a launching pad!!Good luck!

[lansdale]

When I arrived on this board a few years ago I was a rabid exacta player and had had some hellacious meets where I crushed and was uber confident in what I was doing.

That has changed in just a few short years.Exacta prices IMO have plummeted so badly that I cannot withstand the holdouts between winning runs.

I have gone back to the basics and what you say in this thread about low priced horses has been a very big staple.I never bet horses to win under 2-1 though,that is key,but will gladly bet horses there all day if they should be 1-1.In fact horses in the 2-1,5/2,3-1 range win often enough that it is a nice fabric to build off of.Since 2001 horses in the 7/2 to 6-1 range win for me at a 25-30% clip.But the 2-1,5/2,3-1 horses routinely get a 38-43-49% etc or so clip.

You can build a foundation on that and that has been big for me because I don't have an endless bankroll at my disposal and I want to stay in the game.A 35% hit rate at a 3-1 avg mutuel is a 40% ROI.I can maintain calm without my head exploding knowing that I have something working for me while I'm waiting on my exotic big dogs to come rolling across the wire.What used to be even $35-50 exactas are now $15.60-24.10.James Quinn really impressed that idea into me and I have resisted it at times.Now it seems like one of my best friends.Look at it like both Linus'(from Charlie Brown)security blanket and a launching pad!!Good luck!

Hi Cincy,

It sounds like you're very happy with the level of your play, but also that you're not someone who keeps records, and is basically guessing about whether you're playing with an edge at low odds or what that edge might be. The reason I used 'making a living' in my subject line was not to screen out non-pros with an edge, but because, I think few non-pros are serious enough to keep records, and therefore don't really know what the level of their game is.

Cheers,

lansdale

[lansdale]

My margin is definitely lower on the lower odds horses, but overall dollars of profit is higher.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your reply. I would think this would be the key issue for any player, even more than ROI, but maybe only available to database players like yourself.

Cheers,

lansdale

[CincyHorseplayer]

Hi Cincy,

It sounds like you're very happy with the level of your play, but also that you're not someone who keeps records, and is basically guessing about whether you're playing with an edge at low odds or what that edge might be. The reason I used 'making a living' in my subject line was not to screen out non-pros with an edge, but because, I think few non-pros are serious enough to keep records, and therefore don't really know what the level of their game is.

Cheers,

lansdale

I've kept records since 2001 or I wouldn't know any of this.I put in the basic fluctuations at odds levels.Like I said,right now I am a little lower than normal on the spectrum,I am hitting 35% winners at 3-1.The avg mutuel is usually a tad higher because I never bet on horses less than 2-1 to win.That is not a guess.I know exactly what I'm hitting at all times and what I'm striving for,so I have no idea where you grabbed that from my previous post.

[JeremyJet]

I'm not sure if I read it in his book, or some of their promotional material, but Len Ragozin liked to play short price horses because he thought most players were poor at assessing value on short priced horses.

Regards,

JeremyJet

[GARY Z]

ugh, sure, when I'm looking to beat a vulnerable favorite, there are
decent $ out there seeking value based bets in win/vertical and
horizontal bets, and many times in the show pools.

When the fav is in a 5 horse field in a class A track, has a winning trainer,decent jock and shows the ability to win at the distance/surface,
AND the balance of the field are at relatively low odds, passing the race is as good a bet as risking $ to win pennies...

The reverse is to pounce when issues abound and the Fav is vulnerable..

[sammy the sage]

I've kept records since 2001 or I wouldn't know any of this.I put in the basic fluctuations at odds levels.Like I said,right now I am a little lower than normal on the spectrum,I am hitting 35% winners at 3-1.The avg mutuel is usually a tad higher because I never bet on horses less than 2-1 to win.That is not a guess.I know exactly what I'm hitting at all times and what I'm striving for,so I have no idea where you grabbed that from my previous post.

Since yore so IN tune..let's see how TRUTHFUL you are...there are many times at post time...horse is 3/1 or more and ENDs up 2/1 or LESS due to whales betting in last 30 seconds...

What's the FREQUENCY of that happenning to your picks?
It certainly has to hurt the bottom line...........

[sammy the sage]

By the way..I bet like GaryZ...against low odds in spots...for example I ALREADY know...betting AGAINST Big Z come this Sat.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Since yore so IN tune..let's see how TRUTHFUL you are...there are many times at post time...horse is 3/1 or more and ENDs up 2/1 or LESS due to whales betting in last 30 seconds...

What's the FREQUENCY of that happenning to your picks?
It certainly has to hurt the bottom line...........

I've only had 2 horses dip below 2-1 in the last 41 bets due to late action.But it happens often enough elsewhere.I have 9/2 and 7/2 shots end up 3-1 and 2-1 all the time.The average mutuel still holds.

[windoor]

I never look at the odds when I handicap, ( if you can call what I do handicapping) and I very often wager early, before my work day starts, so I never know what odd I'm going to get.

I've cashed at 3/2 and at 45/1 (highest this year)

My average odd for this year is 6.21

I've had some months where I was just golden and could do no wrong, and others that made me feel I could do better picking a number out of hat.

It all works out in the end. Average odd and hit rate over a three month period is everything to me.

Regards

Windoor

[CincyHorseplayer]

Just want to throw this out there.Unless it's wet or drying out at Beulah there has been a speed and/or rail bias,which has led to an inordinately good week week.I bet Monday and today on these type of tracks and have cashed winners at 5/2,3-1,9/5 on Monday and 7/2,3-1,and 6-1 on Saturday and missed the last one at 5-1 by not betting.I'm not trying to sit here self touting,just get on board it's been good pickings lately at this track.Best of luck!

[GARY Z]

sammy the sage]By the way..I bet like GaryZ...against low odds in


Hi Sammy:

to back up my statement, and the dynamics of what can happen in this
insane hobby(yes I doubt I could make a living handicapping),
I loved the #13 at Bel yesterday, but downsized my bet due to the Jock
who until yesterday wasn't having a great meet in Ny, nor the trainer
who normally excels with Graded horses.

Si, I pounded the double wiith the #6(fav) nowhere to be seen after the half
and covered my bet with #3.Were this not a ms sp wt, The winner comes down for ducking out in mid stretch.In looking at the doubles, as
the trainer is red hot, but the dd was way above being bet, I passed on the winner(dumb move).

Worse my bud owns the heavy fav in Mth, race 3, and how could I bet against the horse or even bet?Did get to speak to Mr.Bravo in the
paddock and after the race, and he seems to have mellowed.

Asrespects the Classic, Ms Z had an incredible work yesterday, and
while I feel she isn't going to have an easy time in the Classic,
her competition, this year, is stronger I doubt I will Bet this race vertically
Presuming Gio enters, there is a heavy pace, and smooth trips
for all, the stretch duel should be pretty interesting.

The real wildcard is the weather, ie rain/sloppy track whcih
will affect odds and odds could prove intersting for all entries.

[SchagFactorToWin]

...there are many times at post time...horse is 3/1 or more and ENDs up 2/1 or LESS due to whales betting in last 30 seconds...

What's the FREQUENCY of that happenning to your picks?
It certainly has to hurt the bottom line...........

For my picks, comparing Last Odds Available to Final Odds:
1) if at or above 3:1 LOA and finishes at 2:1 or less- .7% of the time
2) if at or below 2:1 LOA and finishes at 2:1 or less- 97.9% of the time

[raybo]

For my picks, comparing Last Odds Available to Final Odds:
1) if at or above 3:1 LOA and finishes at 2:1 or less- .7% of the time
2) if at or below 2:1 LOA and finishes at 2:1 or less- 97.9% of the time

Although I don't have the figures handy to back this up, this has been my experience, also. By 1 minute to post or so, the very low priced horses are going to get a big share of the remaining dollars bet into the pool (possibly due to players waiting to see the "intelligence" of the public show itself, finally). 3/1 horses, by that time, are not going to change dramatically.

If I were a win player, I wouldn't be chomping at the bit to bet on horses lower than 3/1, anyway. So, let the "whales" and the last second public do their thing.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Although I don't have the figures handy to back this up, this has been my experience, also. By 1 minute to post or so, the very low priced horses are going to get a big share of the remaining dollars bet into the pool (possibly due to players waiting to see the "intelligence" of the public show itself, finally). 3/1 horses, by that time, are not going to change dramatically.

If I were a win player, I wouldn't be chomping at the bit to bet on horses lower than 3/1, anyway. So, let the "whales" and the last second public do their thing.

Raybo,

You understand ROI.At an 8% hit rate I know you understand ROI.I've adjusted my bet base back to 30-40%.Win bets.My exacta bombs follow suit.You see the worth of this don't you??One begets the other.

[raybo]

Raybo,

You understand ROI.At an 8% hit rate I know you understand ROI.I've adjusted my bet base back to 30-40%.Win bets.My exacta bombs follow suit.You see the worth of this don't you??One begets the other.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying you are betting a smaller percentage of win bets with a correspondingly larger percentage of exacta bets.

If that is correct then you are leveraging your money better, more opportunities for higher average returns. Smart!

[raybo]

I'm a firm believer in having something solid and consistent, even at smaller returns, to keep you in the game until you cash the larger returns. Some use WPS wagers for this purpose. I personally rely on the smaller superfecta payouts, $300 - $750 (@ $1), for this purpose, waiting on the $1000+ payouts for my long term profit.

[CincyHorseplayer]

If I understand you correctly, you're saying you are betting a smaller percentage of win bets with a correspondingly larger percentage of exacta bets.

If that is correct then you are leveraging your money better, more opportunities for higher average returns. Smart!

Yes.Exactamundo!!

My base with win bets yields a 30-40% ROI.That what I build the house on.As you know I am an exacta junkie but that bet yields a better than 66% ROI.I don't have to tell you about better than normal payoffs.You are the king.This works for me though.I'm always grounded in a solid betting strategy and even in the worst of times it's tolerable.The payoffs are in my favor.Juggling the two has been an issue though.I've undercapitalized with the split thinking.Work in progress.Ain't we all!!:)

[CincyHorseplayer]

sammy the sage]By the way..I bet like GaryZ...against low odds in


Hi Sammy:

to back up my statement, and the dynamics of what can happen in this
insane hobby(yes I doubt I could make a living handicapping),
I loved the #13 at Bel yesterday, but downsized my bet due to the Jock
who until yesterday wasn't having a great meet in Ny, nor the trainer
who normally excels with Graded horses.

Si, I pounded the double wiith the #6(fav) nowhere to be seen after the half
and covered my bet with #3.Were this not a ms sp wt, The winner comes down for ducking out in mid stretch.In looking at the doubles, as
the trainer is red hot, but the dd was way above being bet, I passed on the winner(dumb move).

Worse my bud owns the heavy fav in Mth, race 3, and how could I bet against the horse or even bet?Did get to speak to Mr.Bravo in the
paddock and after the race, and he seems to have mellowed.

Asrespects the Classic, Ms Z had an incredible work yesterday, and
while I feel she isn't going to have an easy time in the Classic,
her competition, this year, is stronger I doubt I will Bet this race vertically
Presuming Gio enters, there is a heavy pace, and smooth trips
for all, the stretch duel should be pretty interesting.

The real wildcard is the weather, ie rain/sloppy track whcih
will affect odds and odds could prove intersting for all entries.

You are not joking about the weather.It affects us all.Playing into a stiff wind and a wet track it was pure chaos in Ohio Wednesday.And that happens quite often.It really turns it into a guessing game.I go into horseplayer withdrawl!!You can still catch lightning in a bottle but it's spread out enough to drive you mad.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I'm a firm believer in having something solid and consistent, even at smaller returns, to keep you in the game until you cash the larger returns. Some use WPS wagers for this purpose. I personally rely on the smaller superfecta payouts, $300 - $750 (@ $1), for this purpose, waiting on the $1000+ payouts for my long term profit.

Landsdale I apologize if I'm hijacking the thread,but I just like to talk about nuts and bolts betting.

Raybo I'm actually having a new wave of results.I pushed my value seeking quest to the limits and at times annihilated reality with the exacta.I still am.Cashed a 47.60 and a 79.00 exacta multiple times Saturday.But what really anchored me had I got busted out was those 7/2,3-1,and 5-1 shots.In the quest for value I forgot what it was like to actually pick winners.I guess to an extent I thought it was 1-1 or bust.I can actually pick winners!Revelation to me.This exotic bet seeker!!

It might not last,but I think it will.Hell most streaks don't,but for now if I'm getting square prices I'm good.Hanging out in the 40-100% ROI range is good company ugh??!!!Hugh!!!!???You've been a big influence and a valuable resource,I thank you bro.

I still got my psycho version of the Sartin number BTW!!!!

[lsosa54]

I still got my psycho version of the Sartin number BTW!!!!

Cincy: Care to describe without giving any details away? I started out as velocity capper in 1988, I guess with the non-psycho version. Your description cracked me up!

[raybo]

Landsdale I apologize if I'm hijacking the thread,but I just like to talk about nuts and bolts betting.

Raybo I'm actually having a new wave of results.I pushed my value seeking quest to the limits and at times annihilated reality with the exacta.I still am.Cashed a 47.60 and a 79.00 exacta multiple times Saturday.But what really anchored me had I got busted out was those 7/2,3-1,and 5-1 shots.In the quest for value I forgot what it was like to actually pick winners.I guess to an extent I thought it was 1-1 or bust.I can actually pick winners!Revelation to me.This exotic bet seeker!!

It might not last,but I think it will.Hell most streaks don't,but for now if I'm getting square prices I'm good.Hanging out in the 40-100% ROI range is good company ugh??!!!Hugh!!!!???You've been a big influence and a valuable resource,I thank you bro.

I still got my psycho version of the Sartin number BTW!!!!

Rod,

I read this post and had to look at some of our old emails to get back in my head what we were working on, there's been so many other players and spreadsheet designs since then it's hard for me to remember which is which.

You're more than welcome for whatever help I may have given you. Now that I have looked at the old emails, you helped me, too. It was you who introduced Sartin and his work to me. As you know, That work has been included in AllData. I think I designed 6 or 7 spreadsheets for people wanting to incorporate Sartin figures but couldn't figure out how to do it, in Excel. I enjoyed it, believe me, but it got to be too much so I "invented" AllData" and kinda put all the popular Excel stuff in it, as a template of sorts, so anyone could use Excel and could start with most of the hard stuff already done for them.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Cincy: Care to describe without giving any details away? I started out as velocity capper in 1988, I guess with the non-psycho version. Your description cracked me up!

It's simple.And maybe to some simple minded.I add the 2nd call to the first fraction for E/P and 2nd call to 2nd half for S/P.To me if there is a large disparity on either end I know I need to pay attention to that horse.And they usually are bigtime relevant.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Rod,

I read this post and had to look at some of our old emails to get back in my head what we were working on, there's been so many other players and spreadsheet designs since then it's hard for me to remember which is which.

You're more than welcome for whatever help I may have given you. Now that I have looked at the old emails, you helped me, too. It was you who introduced Sartin and his work to me. As you know, That work has been included in AllData. I think I designed 6 or 7 spreadsheets for people wanting to incorporate Sartin figures but couldn't figure out how to do it, in Excel. I enjoyed it, believe me, but it got to be too much so I "invented" AllData" and kinda put all the popular Excel stuff in it, as a template of sorts, so anyone could use Excel and could start with most of the hard stuff already done for them.

That's what it's all about.That made my day man.In this board of giants I am not intimidated but wonder at times what my contributions are worth.You were one of the few who backed me when I came off cocky and deliberate about my exacta game.I got nailed to the cross for it but it was a good experience.This place makes no bones about anything and is a great resource.

Players helping players.That's what this is man.Taking this thing seriously and pushing the envelope.To me betting is an existential moment and what I am is defined by the results.I like living that drama.If I don't feel that way I don't take anything seriously and it's a spurious game of hit or miss.To most it's recreation or an attempt at automaton thinking.Not me,I love this.

Glad I was able to introduce you to the Sartin work.I have my own manipulations of the numbers but Jim "The Hat" Bradshaw has been the biggest influence on my thinking.I start all my thinking from his matchup and then a class profile that would make James Quinn proud!

Anyway.It's Breeder's Cup week.I did my dry run and came up on the positive end of the spectrum.Let's tear this baby apart my man!!

[raybo]

That's what it's all about.That made my day man.In this board of giants I am not intimidated but wonder at times what my contributions are worth.You were one of the few who backed me when I came off cocky and deliberate about my exacta game.I got nailed to the cross for it but it was a good experience.This place makes no bones about anything and is a great resource.

Players helping players.That's what this is man.Taking this thing seriously and pushing the envelope.To me betting is an existential moment and what I am is defined by the results.I like living that drama.If I don't feel that way I don't take anything seriously and it's a spurious game of hit or miss.To most it's recreation or an attempt at automaton thinking.Not me,I love this.

Glad I was able to introduce you to the Sartin work.I have my own manipulations of the numbers but Jim "The Hat" Bradshaw has been the biggest influence on my thinking.I start all my thinking from his matchup and then a class profile that would make James Quinn proud!

Anyway.It's Breeder's Cup week.I did my dry run and came up on the positive end of the spectrum.Let's tear this baby apart my man!!

Rod,

We are like minded. Helping other players and hearing of the results the help has made, is a tremendous high.

My love for the game is slowly making a come back, as the period I played full time turned it into a stressful business. It took a year off, taking a regular job (to pay the bills), a subsequent self analysis, and a reduction in the number of races I handicapped to get out of that "grind".

I have 4 "heroes" that have had substantial impact on my play over the years" James Hooper (my playing partner of 30+ years and my early mentor), Pittsburg Phil (the author of the only handicapping book I've ever read from cover to cover), Howard Sartin (thanks to you), and most recently Pizzola (who's work is currently driving my present project (ala my distance equalized, fully adjusted times, pace and speed figures).

Who knows, maybe some day I'll write a book. :rolleyes:

Hope you hit some big ones in the BC!!

[raybo]

There are 2 times per year when I abandon 1 of my "absolute" disciplines (by choice), the Derby and the BC. During these 2 times the pool sizes make it a different ball game, for me. I "splurge", regarding ticket costs, in favor of "more than adequate" coverage, looking for 4, 5 , and 6 figure payouts in the supers.