Poll about breeding

[Dahoss9698]

Let's assume there are no absolutes and acknowledge that there are cases where turf horses produce dirt runners and vice versa. Generally speaking, do horses pass on a preference for a specific surface to their progeny? In other words, do turf horses pass on a preference for turf and dirt horses a preference to dirt more often than not?

[thaskalos]

Eventhough the progenies of the top "grass sires" win races on the dirt too...their turf efforts are generally much more impressive.

[nijinski]

I think that there is a valid argument for turf horses to pass that on. I think it
probably comes out in the size and comformation maybe even the hooves.

It appears to me many of them a longer bodied not in hands measurement but from the withers to hind area.
I haven't noticed too many turf horses that are like lets say Forego or Zenyatta at seventeen hands plus.

[Nikki1997]

Let's assume there are no absolutes and acknowledge that there are cases where turf horses produce dirt runners and vice versa. Generally speaking, do horses pass on a preference for a specific surface to their progeny? In other words, do turf horses pass on a preference for turf and dirt horses a preference to dirt more often than not?

Good grief. Do you have horses, DaHoss or have you ever been the breeder of horses?
You are attempting to make a very non black and white situation just that.

There are so many variables, even with your paltry disclaimer, such a poll is ludicrous.

You can't reduce genetics to such an either/or answer. Not surprised YOU tried, though. You continue to reveal how little you actually know about horses. This poll is a prime example.

Before you go off on one of your tangents that is only understood by you, I am a breeder. I bred and raised a colt who won a world championship for me in 2005. His full sister of whom I am also the breeder, is a champion, as well. I am not flying by the seat of my pants when I respond to something like this, but you, by the very nature of your original post, clearly are.

[GatetoWire]

A lot of this passing is simply the confirmation of the sons or daughters.

Turf horses often have success on that surface because of their physical characteristics are suited to grass running vs dirt.

A turf stallion's son or daughter most likely will have some of those same physical makeups because of their father or mother.

[Dahoss9698]

Good grief. Do you have horses, DaHoss or have you ever been the breeder of horses?
You are attempting to make a very non black and white situation just that.

There are so many variables, even with your paltry disclaimer, such a poll is ludicrous.

You can't reduce genetics to such an either/or answer. Not surprised YOU tried, though. You continue to reveal how little you actually know about horses. This poll is a prime example.

Before you go off on one of your tangents that is only understood by you, I am a breeder. I bred and raised a colt who won a world championship for me in 2005. His full sister of whom I am also the breeder, is a champion, as well. I am not flying by the seat of my pants when I respond to something like this, but you, by the very nature of your original post, clearly are.

So your vote is no?

[thaskalos]

Good grief. Do you have horses, DaHoss or have you ever been the breeder of horses?
You are attempting to make a very non black and white situation just that.

There are so many variables, even with your paltry disclaimer, such a poll is ludicrous.

You can't reduce genetics to such an either/or answer. Not surprised YOU tried, though. You continue to reveal how little you actually know about horses. This poll is a prime example.

Before you go off on one of your tangents that is only understood by you, I am a breeder. I bred and raised a colt who won a world championship for me in 2005. His full sister of whom I am also the breeder, is a champion, as well. I am not flying by the seat of my pants when I respond to something like this, but you, by the very nature of your original post, clearly are.Nikki...

I doubt that Dahoss needs me to defend him, but aren't we horseplayers allowed to discuss matters that pertain to the on-track performance of race horses...or do we have to become breeders first?

[tzipi]

Turf horses have bigger hoofs which is better for turf running, that's just fact. NOT that a dirt specialist with smaller feet can't produce a turf runner. But turf horses(bigger feet, longer bodies) will pass on certain traits to their foals.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Good grief. Do you have horses, DaHoss or have you ever been the breeder of horses?
You are attempting to make a very non black and white situation just that.

There are so many variables, even with your paltry disclaimer, such a poll is ludicrous.

You can't reduce genetics to such an either/or answer. Not surprised YOU tried, though. You continue to reveal how little you actually know about horses. This poll is a prime example.

Before you go off on one of your tangents that is only understood by you, I am a breeder. I bred and raised a colt who won a world championship for me in 2005. His full sister of whom I am also the breeder, is a champion, as well. I am not flying by the seat of my pants when I respond to something like this, but you, by the very nature of your original post, clearly are.

What part of "generally speaking" do you not understand?

You're a breeder. Okay. Your example seems consistent with answering "YES" to the question, correct?

What breed of horses are you involved with?

[Robert Goren]

Nikki. It is the attitude of horse people like you toward handicappers that has race tracks looking to slot machines to keep you in business.

[Dahoss9698]

What breed of horses are you involved with?

Unicorns

[Saratoga_Mike]

Nikki. It is the attitude of horse people like you toward handicappers that has race tracks looking to slot machines to keep you in business.

I don't think he/she/it has anything to do with t'bred racing, but I guess your statement still holds. Anyway, his/her posting was nonsensical.

[tzipi]

Unicorns

:lol: Sorry, but it's funny after DaHoss got blasted for no reason.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Unicorns

LOL - reminds me of your reindeer tale - I can't remember who that one was directed toward

[Nikki1997]

Thanks, guys, for making me laugh. Hey, keep on thinking everything is black and white. What a brain trust. :)

I'd LOVE to have some of you here at my place where you'd have to actually interact with these animals you bet on. I do believe I'd put money on the first ones to run screaming and hollaring away if a horse came within ten feet of them. Hahaha.

[thaskalos]

Thanks, guys, for making me laugh. Hey, keep on thinking everything is black and white. What a brain trust. :)

I'd LOVE to have some of you here at my place where you'd have to actually interact with these animals you bet on. I do believe I'd put money on the first ones to run screaming and hollaring away if a horse came within ten feet of them. Hahaha.Not fair...

None of us has ever accused you of running away screaming and hollaring at the sight of a betting window....

[Bullet Plane]

Thanks, guys, for making me laugh. Hey, keep on thinking everything is black and white. What a brain trust. :)

I'd LOVE to have some of you here at my place where you'd have to actually interact with these animals you bet on. I do believe I'd put money on the first ones to run screaming and hollaring away if a horse came within ten feet of them. Hahaha.

I didn't get the sense from the question that breeding is the only factor. It is one of the factors. Speed, pace, class, trip, breeding, Trainer angles, Jockey angles, post position...others as well.

Which factor or combination of factors to use in any given horserace is the "art" of handicapping.

I use a couple of the popular breeding guides, as well as the tomlinsons provided in the DRF to make calls.

[Nikki1997]

Not fair...

None of us has ever accused you of running away screaming and hollaring at the sight of a betting window....

Is this for real? A betting window as opposed to a living, breathing, 1100 - 1200 lb. animal? A REAL horse instead of something on a piece of paper?

[thaskalos]

Is this for real? A betting window as opposed to a living, breathing, 1100 - 1200 lb. animal? A REAL horse instead of something on a piece of paper?It's what we do Nikki...

You spend your time next to horses, and we spend ours at the betting windows.

We don't profess to be experts at owning and breeding horses...we are experts at evaluating their on-track performances, and betting our money.

[Dahoss9698]

I actually just found video of the world champion Nikki bred. He's a real looker.

KveR7WSanBU

[nearco]

What was the name of the world champion?
I'm presuming it's nothing to do with TB racing.
A champion in some breed specific discipline perhaps?

[Dahoss9698]

What was the name of the world champion?


Sandy

[Nikki1997]

It's what we do Nikki...

You spend your time next to horses, and we spend ours at the betting windows.

We don't profess to be experts at owning and breeding horses...we are experts at evaluating their on-track performances, and betting our money.

I appreciate that. I do not get on these threads and berate and make fun of selections that anyone makes. It's none of my business. However, when the subject of a thread gravitates into areas where it is obvious the horse itself isn't being considered, posts made on behalf of those horses are treated with disdain, barbs, sarcasm and graphics.

I may not bet on the level that many here do and if that's your thing, unload your pockets. It's no concern of mine. What I care about is the horses and it has become more than clear that the horses (those creatures your's and other's money is laid down upon) really aren't a concern other than they pay back some sort of profit. You guys bet. Fine. Those who are bettors who couldn't care less about the horse they bet on as long as there's a profit and those who care about the horses and their welfare will always be crosswise.

It is a situation where different languages are being spoken.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I appreciate that. I do not get on these threads and berate and make fun of selections that anyone makes. It's none of my business. However, when the subject of a thread gravitates into areas where it is obvious the horse itself isn't being considered, posts made on behalf of those horses are treated with disdain, barbs, sarcasm and graphics.

I may not bet on the level that many here do and if that's your thing, unload your pockets. It's no concern of mine. What I care about is the horses and it has become more than clear that the horses (those creatures your's and other's money is laid down upon) really aren't a concern other than they pay back some sort of profit. You guys bet. Fine. Those who are bettors who couldn't care less about the horse they bet on as long as there's a profit and those who care about the horses and their welfare will always be crosswise.

It is a situation where different languages are being spoken.

What message board have you been reading? And what does Dahoss' question have to do with the welfare of horses? Nothing, but nice attempt at changing the topic. So what breed are you involved with???

[nijinski]

Why so pompous ???? it makes you less credible .

[thaskalos]

I appreciate that. I do not get on these threads and berate and make fun of selections that anyone makes. It's none of my business. However, when the subject of a thread gravitates into areas where it is obvious the horse itself isn't being considered, posts made on behalf of those horses are treated with disdain, barbs, sarcasm and graphics.

I may not bet on the level that many here do and if that's your thing, unload your pockets. It's no concern of mine. What I care about is the horses and it has become more than clear that the horses (those creatures your's and other's money is laid down upon) really aren't a concern other than they pay back some sort of profit. You guys bet. Fine. Those who are bettors who couldn't care less about the horse they bet on as long as there's a profit and those who care about the horses and their welfare will always be crosswise.

It is a situation where different languages are being spoken.Nikki,

I'm sure you will agree that if any harm whatsoeven has come to the horses, it has been because of the horsemen and the owners...and not because of the horseplayers. So it is some of you "insiders" who seem not to care about your horses, and only see them as a meal ticket.

Horseplayers argue about many things...but a love for horses, and a concern for their well-being are two things we all have in common.

[Tom]

Purse=$0.25!

[Tom]

Those who are bettors who couldn't care less about the horse they bet on as long as there's a profit and those who care about the horses and their welfare will always be crosswise.

As opposed to owners and trainers who could give shit about the horse as long they make money of it. Care of the horse is YOUR freaking job, not ours. If trainers were so worried about the horses's maybe we wouldn't have the blatant drug abuse that we do today. WE can't do anything from the stands, but YOU are in the next stall.

[Tom]

Is this for real? A betting window as opposed to a living, breathing, 1100 - 1200 lb. animal? A REAL horse instead of something on a piece of paper?

Try having racing for purses without them.
You will be in fields off the Thruway running for side bets.
BTW, I can wear my shoes in the house.

[tucker6]

I actually just found video of the world champion Nikki bred. He's a real looker.

KveR7WSanBUI don't know Hoss. He doesn't look well fed. Look at the coat. It's not the normal sheen. This is a claimer at best.

[Dahoss9698]

I don't know Hoss. He doesn't look well fed. Look at the coat. It's not the normal sheen. This is a claimer at best.

Let's give him to Juan Carlos Guerrero and see what he can do with her.

[Nitro]

Thanks, guys, for making me laugh. Hey, keep on thinking everything is black and white. What a brain trust. :)

I'd LOVE to have some of you here at my place where you'd have to actually interact with these animals you bet on. I do believe I'd put money on the first ones to run screaming and hollaring away if a horse came within ten feet of them. Hahaha.Don’t waste your breath Nikki! Because many of these so-called handicappers only understand horses by the numbers they produce. Someday they’ll realize that they’re outsiders looking into a game that’s not even close to being an exact science. All of their subjective nonsense is portrayed so vividly and in all likelihood caused by the frustrations they experience while trying to justify why their numbering systems fail to generate the “holy grail” for consistent results.

I’m not surprised at all by their pompous attitude toward someone who just might have a bit more insight into the results of the breeding side of the business! In their minds there could be nothing more important then understanding some generalized statistical nonsense about the results of specialized breeding. Apparently many don’t get it and will argue one way or the other because one or more small samplings or aberrations in their statistics don’t conform to the norm. What a joke!

[Saratoga_Mike]

Someday they’ll realize that they’re outsiders looking into a game that’s not even close to being an exact science.

You're calling others pompous?

I grew up with horses. I’ve owned horses. And I’ve certainly bet on horses, often utilizing “generalized statistical nonsense.” Yet, I rarely find it necessary to mention these facts when I post. Why? Simple, it doesn’t make my opinion on something like the topic of breeding anymore legitimate or valid than anyone else on the board.

And where's your "expert" opinion on DaHoss' question?

[PhantomOnTour]

This thread is further evidence to support James Quinn's notion that horseplayers and horsemen should not associate. We see the sport from two vastly different angles....

Example: big race day at FG a few years and Pollards Vision was running (think it was the NO Hcp) and I am telling my brother in law the reason why PV has his name...blind in one eye like Red Pollard. We are in the paddock about 15mins to post. I explain to my bro in law that PV will go wide because he can't see out his right eye, and we will leave him off the ticket. And here comes horsechick to butt in and tell me how well he's training and what a lovely demeanor he has and blah blah blah...all that may well be true, and thanks for sharing, BUT, going widest of all around the turn at a tight oval like FG is a losing journey. I tried to ignore her comments and carry on but she just loved her some PV and couldn't stand to hear me say I was against him. Things almost got ugly and I wound up ending the discussion asking her how well the others were training and what's their demeanor...then she realized that she only knows how well HER horse is doing and she hadn't considered the whole field....and that's the difference btw us. We study every horse and you take care of your horse(s).

Sorry to digress....but to answer DaHoss' poll....YES, they pass surface afffinity on their kids.

Pollards Vision ran 4th or maybe got 3rd after challenging the leaders throughout the final turn and into the stretch....he turned for home 4 wide.

[FenceBored]

Good grief. Do you have horses, DaHoss or have you ever been the breeder of horses?
You are attempting to make a very non black and white situation just that.

There are so many variables, even with your paltry disclaimer, such a poll is ludicrous.

You can't reduce genetics to such an either/or answer. Not surprised YOU tried, though. You continue to reveal how little you actually know about horses. This poll is a prime example.

Before you go off on one of your tangents that is only understood by you, I am a breeder. I bred and raised a colt who won a world championship for me in 2005. His full sister of whom I am also the breeder, is a champion, as well. I am not flying by the seat of my pants when I respond to something like this, but you, by the very nature of your original post, clearly are.

I agree. Selective breeding for particular traits? How crazy can you get. Next he'll be thinking there are types of dogs bred for specific purposes, like going into holes to retreive burrowing varmits or herding sheep.

[Robert Fischer]

Let's assume there are no absolutes and acknowledge that there are cases where turf horses produce dirt runners and vice versa. Generally speaking, do horses pass on a preference for a specific surface to their progeny? In other words, do turf horses pass on a preference for turf and dirt horses a preference to dirt more often than not?

advanced stuff but can be productive concepts...

2 basic sets +1

1. Primary surface-specific adaptations - These need not be adaptations caused by a need to "adapt to a specific surface" - they simply have to be primary/directly useful traits. Advantageous hoove characteristics(the most popular, and hoove conformation seems the most specific of as well). Hoove conformation may in fact be the ONLY type of what I call "primary" advantageous traits. In theory, there is a probability of other primary advantageous traits regarding things like type-of-build, or ratio of various bone and muscle groups. To actually qualify for what I am calling direct or primary traits, they would have to be evident that they give an advantage directly for the surface itself, which should be evident that it becomes more difficult beyond the hoove stuff. This stuff can be profitable in situations where the public hesitates due to surface doubt(when you can see the horse was "born" to do fine on the surface(or maybe better born to fail on that surface), or when the talking heads publicly proclaim a horse to be headed for certain failure at surfac. )

2. The 2nd group is the Kevin Bacon group - such and such a trait was so n so'z cousin's friend and in a movie by Kevin Bacon... but their "general" nature is no less important in examining genetic aptitude. In fact they actually are the more interesting of the two groups. They are more subtle, harder to comprehend(and most of the public misinterprets them most of the time !) The most common way that these traits give advantages over the average horse for certain surfaces are in the ways that forces either tend to aid,oppose,or create a neutral situation(neutral situations have a probability that while they are a significant in terms of occurrence, may not provide preferences/advantages for a surface.
more on 2nd group- this group includes traits like ratio of fast-twitch fibers, plain old stamina, stamina and/or explosive(a number of traits could fill in a blank for )"x" following a moderate cardiovascular exertion, top speed, acceleration from various gaits(thinking more specific, but "gait" captures the basic idea). This set of traits is the coolest and most potentially profitable, because the forces themselves vary from race to race, and are commonly misunderstood.

Mental traits= Group-3(traits!/ not the euro class desig.),are what I see technically as part of the 2nd group, but a case could be made that mental traits are both unique and significant. This group theoretically includes things like ability to relax among hostilities, wanting to lead, etc... I'm not really comfortable with emphasizing this group due to my lack of insight with these genetisc . I know that a nutjob horse can under-perform or melt-down, and I know some of these horses are predisposed, but like I said, personally limited to theory because of lack of insight.

[WinterTriangle]

While perhaps a fun poll, I can't see how it could yield anything of value.

Subject is theoretical and complex, inquiry as presented in this topic is way too shallow. The "generally speaking" comment is no help as the subject matter cannot be reduced in such a way.

Basically, the answer to the poll would be Yes, No, and Sometimes. :)

Yes, some traits are passed on, the big question is HOW? What crosses and when? Yeah, turfers have bigger hooves. That's easily observable. But offers absolutely no insight into how to breed for that. When you're looking at a sire, a dam, a bms of a race candidate..... you are guessing unless you have a very good database of what produces what. There are any number of horses with "big hooves" who are put on turf and never win anything.

Since there are lengthy volumes written on the subject, if it was something that could be rduced to a simple formula, breeders, bloodstock agents, buyers, trainers, and handicappers wouldn't have such a hard job, eh?


You would barely be touching the tip of the iceberg but a good starter reading list would be (along with the many great internet pedigree, breeding and bloodstock sites and blogs, the Equine Genome Project, etc. ):
Racehorse Breeding Theories editors Frank Mitchell Ph.D and Steven Roman Ph.D

(and any of the other mitchell books like The Hancocks)

The Great Breeders and their Methods- Abram Hewitt

Breeding the Racehorse (http://www.amazon.com/Breeding-Racehorse-Federico-Tesio/dp/0851316182/ref=sid_av_dp) by Federico Tesio

Typology of the Racehorse (http://www.amazon.com/Typology-Racehorse-Franco-Varola/dp/0875562701/ref=sid_av_dp) by Franco Varola

Bloodstock Breeding (http://www.amazon.com/Bloodstock-Breeding-Sir-Charles-Leicester/dp/0851313493/ref=sid_av_dp) by Sir Charles Leicester

Sire Lines by Abram Hewitt

Genetic Heritage and Quest for a Classic Winner- Ken McLean

Thoroughbred Breeding: Pedigree Theories and the Science of Genetics -Binns, Morris

I just don't see how you can make this into a yes no poll?

[WinterTriangle]

As for horsemen and handicappers butting heads. They need each other to survive. ditto, pedigree/bloodstock folks, and conformation experts.

Reading now (along with Monty Roberts book) both very fun reading and provide fantastic handicapping insight:

Traits of a Winner: The Formula for Developing Thoroughbred Racehorses (http://www.paperbackswap.com/Traits-Winner-Formula-Carl-A-Nafzger/book/0929346327/), by Carl A. Nafzger (http://www.paperbackswap.com/Carl-A-Nafzger/author/)

One I ordered but haven't read yet, just browsed:
The Training Game: An Inside Look at American Racing's Top Trainers, DRF Press

Lots of profitable training methods. Anyone who thinks they can't learn from a horseman is not very wise.

[nijinski]

Thanks for all the links WT ,

[tzipi]

Thanks, guys, for making me laugh. Hey, keep on thinking everything is black and white. What a brain trust. :)

I'd LOVE to have some of you here at my place where you'd have to actually interact with these animals you bet on. I do believe I'd put money on the first ones to run screaming and hollaring away if a horse came within ten feet of them. Hahaha.

Yeah I've been around horses for 15 years. Get over it that you're the only one to work with horses. Geez :rolleyes:

[WinterTriangle]

Thanks for all the links WT ,

;) I finally gave myself a generous book-buying budget and have been having a ball.

Still don't own the Hewitt's book or Marianna Haun's books on large heart. Both out of print and very hard to come by.

I received one out-of-print book as a surprise gift from a member here, Matriarchs: Great Mares of the 20th Century, by Ed Bowen----it's a real treasure. :jump:

[Dahoss9698]

I wish I knew it all after two years. Must be nice.

[thaskalos]

As for horsemen and handicappers butting heads. They need each other to survive.I beg to differ.

The horsemen survive BECAUSE of us...we survive IN SPITE of them.

The horsemen always had, and always will have, a very adversarial relationship with us.

To them...we are a necessary evil - because we try to profit from "their sweat" - and they do their best to deceive us any way they can, by legal or illegal means.

[FenceBored]

While perhaps a fun poll, I can't see how it could yield anything of value.

Subject is theoretical and complex, inquiry as presented in this topic is way too shallow. The "generally speaking" comment is no help as the subject matter cannot be reduced in such a way.

Basically, the answer to the poll would be Yes, No, and Sometimes. :)

Yes, some traits are passed on, the big question is HOW? What crosses and when? Yeah, turfers have bigger hooves. That's easily observable. But offers absolutely no insight into how to breed for that. When you're looking at a sire, a dam, a bms of a race candidate..... you are guessing unless you have a very good database of what produces what. There are any number of horses with "big hooves" who are put on turf and never win anything.

Since there are lengthy volumes written on the subject, if it was something that could be rduced to a simple formula, breeders, bloodstock agents, buyers, trainers, and handicappers wouldn't have such a hard job, eh?


You would barely be touching the tip of the iceberg but a good starter reading list would be (along with the many great internet pedigree, breeding and bloodstock sites and blogs, the Equine Genome Project, etc. ):
Racehorse Breeding Theories editors Frank Mitchell Ph.D and Steven Roman Ph.D

(and any of the other mitchell books like The Hancocks)

The Great Breeders and their Methods- Abram Hewitt

Breeding the Racehorse (http://www.amazon.com/Breeding-Racehorse-Federico-Tesio/dp/0851316182/ref=sid_av_dp) by Federico Tesio

Typology of the Racehorse (http://www.amazon.com/Typology-Racehorse-Franco-Varola/dp/0875562701/ref=sid_av_dp) by Franco Varola

Bloodstock Breeding (http://www.amazon.com/Bloodstock-Breeding-Sir-Charles-Leicester/dp/0851313493/ref=sid_av_dp) by Sir Charles Leicester

Sire Lines by Abram Hewitt

Genetic Heritage and Quest for a Classic Winner- Ken McLean

Thoroughbred Breeding: Pedigree Theories and the Science of Genetics -Binns, Morris

I just don't see how you can make this into a yes no poll?

Gee, I don't know. Interpreting DaHoss's question as "do certain lines of descent in NA thoroughbred breeding show a statistically significant proclivity for successful performance on a particular type of surface (e.g. turf, synthetic, 'mudders') such that inheritability is the likeliest explanation," I'd say that is easily a yes or no question.

[Dahoss9698]

I beg to differ.

The horsemen survive BECAUSE of us...we survive IN SPITE of them.

The horsemen always had, and always will have, a very adversarial relationship with us.

To them...we are a necessary evil - because we try to profit from "their sweat" - and they do their best to deceive us any way they can, by legal or illegal means.

The worst part is, we have so many options for gambling in 2010. Yet, we choose to put our money on horses. What do we get in return? Lies, deceit and no appreciation.

Thanks for nothing...

[thaskalos]

The worst part is, we have so many options for gambling in 2010. Yet, we choose to put our money on horses. What do we get in return? Lies, deceit and no appreciation.

Not to mention insults by Nikki and Nitro...

[Cardus]

Good grief. Do you have horses, DaHoss or have you ever been the breeder of horses?
You are attempting to make a very non black and white situation just that.

There are so many variables, even with your paltry disclaimer, such a poll is ludicrous.

You can't reduce genetics to such an either/or answer. Not surprised YOU tried, though. You continue to reveal how little you actually know about horses. This poll is a prime example.

Before you go off on one of your tangents that is only understood by you, I am a breeder. I bred and raised a colt who won a world championship for me in 2005. His full sister of whom I am also the breeder, is a champion, as well. I am not flying by the seat of my pants when I respond to something like this, but you, by the very nature of your original post, clearly are.

Good grief, indeed.

[bisket]

its pretty telling that anyone putting a pole of this nature on the board doesn't have a clue how to fit breeding into their handicapping routine. winter triangle was being diplomatic, but i don't have that gift....
hoss your a dumbarse stick to adding and subtracting.

[cj]

its pretty telling that anyone putting a pole of this nature on the board doesn't have a clue how to fit breeding into their handicapping routine. winter triangle was being diplomatic, but i don't have that gift....
hoss your a dumbarse stick to adding and subtracting.

Avatar.

[Cardus]

I wish I knew it all after two years. Must be nice.

They're called prodigies.

Didn't you know?

[Tom]

There used to be a prodigie board I think. PA and andicap posted there.

[Dahoss9698]

its pretty telling that anyone putting a pole of this nature on the board doesn't have a clue how to fit breeding into their handicapping routine. winter triangle was being diplomatic, but i don't have that gift....
hoss your a dumbarse stick to adding and subtracting.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

For the record I rarely if ever use figures. Try again.

[Cardus]

its pretty telling that anyone putting a pole of this nature on the board doesn't have a clue how to fit breeding into their handicapping routine. winter triangle was being diplomatic, but i don't have that gift....
hoss your a dumbarse stick to adding and subtracting.

I guess that we are all doing some "pole" dancing in this thread, no?

[thaskalos]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

For the record I rarely if ever use figures. Try again.You never use figures?

And you dare call yourself a 21st century handicapper?

For a reasonable fee, bisket and I will be more than happy to introduce you to the finer points of speed and pace handicapping. :)

[cj]

You never use figures?

And you dare call yourself a 21st century handicapper?

For a reasonable fee, bisket and I will be more than happy to introduce you to the finer points of speed and pace handicapping. :)

He said rarely.

[thaskalos]

He said rarely.He said "rarely, if ever."

[Dahoss9698]

You never use figures?

And you dare call yourself a 21st century handicapper?

For a reasonable fee, bisket and I will be more than happy to introduce you to the finer points of speed and pace handicapping. :)

Almost never. I glance at them in the process of handicapping, but for me personally, other methods work better. I don't begrudge anyone using them, because I know lots of people that have success with them, especially CJ's figs.

[PaceAdvantage]

Is this for real? A betting window as opposed to a living, breathing, 1100 - 1200 lb. animal? A REAL horse instead of something on a piece of paper?Real horses aren't as scary as you make them out to be...

[PaceAdvantage]

I appreciate that. I do not get on these threads and berate and make fun of selections that anyone makes. It's none of my business. However, when the subject of a thread gravitates into areas where it is obvious the horse itself isn't being considered, posts made on behalf of those horses are treated with disdain, barbs, sarcasm and graphics.

I may not bet on the level that many here do and if that's your thing, unload your pockets. It's no concern of mine. What I care about is the horses and it has become more than clear that the horses (those creatures your's and other's money is laid down upon) really aren't a concern other than they pay back some sort of profit. You guys bet. Fine. Those who are bettors who couldn't care less about the horse they bet on as long as there's a profit and those who care about the horses and their welfare will always be crosswise.

It is a situation where different languages are being spoken.What you just wrote has absolutely nothing to do with the original post in this thread.

Your little attempt at berating Dahoss failed miserably, and now you are backtracking and ass covering...kind of sad really...and to top it all off, we don't know if it was Nikki or Mikki we're talking to... :lol:

The act has worn very thin my dear. Take that for what it's worth.

[Dahoss9698]

Real horses aren't as scary as you make them out to be...

I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying some of the betting parlors I've been in are far scarier than horses I've been around.

[cj]

As has been stated, it isn't bettors that treat horses poorly.

[PaceAdvantage]

its pretty telling that anyone putting a pole of this nature on the board doesn't have a clue how to fit breeding into their handicapping routine. winter triangle was being diplomatic, but i don't have that gift....
hoss your a dumbarse stick to adding and subtracting.Could you please explain this in some intelligent detail?

How exactly does a poll of this nature
"Do horses pass on a surface preference to their progeny?" show that he DOESN'T HAVE A CLUE HOW TO FIT BREEDING INTO HIS HANDICAPPING ROUTINE?

Please break it down for me, because I would really like to understand how an innocent question like that proves he has no clue how to handicap with breeding information (as if that's even a requirement to be a successful handicapper).

You do realize you could ignore breeding from here until eternity and STILL make a long term profit at handicapping. You realize this, correct? But I digress.

And going around calling other members of this board "dumb ass" (or "dumbarse" as you so creatively named it) isn't the formula for sticking around too much longer. You've done this multiple times already. You're running out of good will. I know you don't really care, but I just thought I'd tell you anyway.

[tzipi]

its pretty telling that anyone putting a pole of this nature on the board doesn't have a clue how to fit breeding into their handicapping routine. winter triangle was being diplomatic, but i don't have that gift....
hoss your a dumbarse stick to adding and subtracting.

You're telling someone to stick to adding and subtracting and bashing them as a "dumbarse" but you say "pole"! It's poll, not "pole". :rolleyes:

[WinterTriangle]

I wish I knew it all after two years.

What specifically did you disagree with in my response? Be specific.....not sarcastic.

What details of my response negated what you know about breeding? My answer to your poll was officially: yes, no and sometimes.

Did you disagree with that---- or did you just resent my giving you a valid answer?



Next, let's put this to rest:

While you may have been way behind the curve in your 3rd or 4th year, that may not be true of everyone because it was true for you.

Time doesn't guarantee success in HR. Devotion and acuity does.

Based on your selections, everyone has bad days (or days) ....even geniuses like yourself:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76510 (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76510)
16 wagers, Zero winners

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75842
11 wagers, Zero winners.
(One possible winner in last race you said you weren't betting which would bring it to 12 wagers, 1 winner.)

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75668
12 wagers, 1 (win) winner


You are no better or worse than anyone else here, not immune to faulty observation and bad handicapping. None of us are.

So, enough with your continual dripping sarcasm. You still have plenty to learn from others, whether they are people you like or not.


Side note to NEWBIES:
Many of us welcome you into our sport. :jump: Do not be intimidated by those who don't.

This latter group will tell you you can't possibly know anything. It's BS, and its not the way to get new people into the game. Don't let these types dictate what you see and know, or how fast you will be able to grasp it. The authentic people who really love the game will bend over backwards to take you under their wing, and will be respectful of you. The other ones are losers, and especially after a bad day at the track, will try to diminish you. Losers don't like winners....remember that.

Post on racing forums! Do not be intimidated by those who think nobody but themselves has anything valuable to say. Your viewpoints and observations will be seen as having value by the best --- because the best see themselves as "always learning, and always open to new observations".

Finally, your powers of observation may be very sharp. Just keep wagering your observations into the parimutuel pools.:ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Side note to NEWBIES:
Many of us welcome you into our sport. :jump: Do not be intimidated by those who don't.

This latter group will tell you you can't possibly know anything. It's BS, and its not the way to get new people into the game. Don't let these types dictate what you see and know, or how fast you will be able to grasp it. The authentic people who really love the game will bend over backwards to take you under their wing, and will be respectful of you. The other ones are losers, and especially after a bad day at the track, will try to diminish you. Losers don't like winners....remember that.

Post on racing forums! Do not be intimidated by those who think nobody but themselves has anything valuable to say. Your viewpoints and observations will be seen as having value by the best --- because the best see themselves as "always learning, and always open to new observations".

Finally, your powers of observation may be very sharp. Just keep wagering your observations into the parimutuel pools.:ThmbUp:Ugghhh...now you're turning this into a crusade against newbies? Is that how you classify Dahoss' postings?

Newbies will do just fine here. I look out for all newbies who are actually newbies, and not retreads... :lol:

[5k-claim]

Let's assume there are no absolutes and acknowledge that there are cases where turf horses produce dirt runners and vice versa. Generally speaking, do horses pass on a preference for a specific surface to their progeny? In other words, do turf horses pass on a preference for turf and dirt horses a preference to dirt more often than not?

Dahoss,

I think this is a perfectly valid question. Not sure what some people were causing a fuss about.

Just between "Yes" and "No", I would lean towards "Yes". There are of course many environmental factors beyond genetics that could contribute to what appears to be a preference. If someone gave me a horse and told me it was a stone cold turf horse, I would start off by treating it as such which would influence how it was trained (mentally and physically) in anticipation of the distances and pace scenarios more associated with turf racing. It would be ridden and shoed for turf racing. Now, as I definitely believe that many horses have a natural preference for surface that is not overcome by environmental factors like training, if it is really a dirt horse we would (hopefully) eventually figure that out. If the horse has a natural preference, and many do, then it is going to show up. Definitely. The key word is "natural".

We can't forget though that after the horse is in training and starts to collect minor physical issues at various points on its body, it may end up appreciating the shoeing, footing and pace scenarios associated with one surface over another. And that would not have much to do with genetics.

That is my $0.02

[Dahoss9698]

Finally, your powers of observation may be very sharp. Just keep wagering your observations into the parimutuel pools.:ThmbUp:


I will keep wagering and you keep pretending you do. You're the one who told me you rarely bet, remember? You're also the one who has asked me for advice, numerous times, remember? So which is it? I know nothing or you want to learn from me?

The difference between us is perspective. I recognize what a challenging sport this is. I recognize there are always new things to learn. I realize that there is a big difference between monopoly bets on the internet and actually betting. I know with good days come bad. I've endured losing streaks and had incredible runs. But through it all, I've always learned from others and most importantly from my own mistakes.

You think by reading message boards and regurgitating posts from other boards it makes you knowledgable. You think you have it all figured out and frankly, to those who have spent over half of their lives playing it's insulting. You're a fraud and you appeal to the lowest common denominator of posters here and elsewhere.

[Robert Fischer]

2. The 2nd group is the Kevin Bacon group - such and such a trait was so n so'z cousin's friend and in a movie by Kevin Bacon... but their "general" nature is no less important in examining genetic aptitude. In fact they actually are the more interesting of the two groups. They are more subtle, harder to comprehend(and most of the public misinterprets them most of the time !) The most common way that these traits give advantages over the average horse for certain surfaces are in the ways that forces either tend to aid,oppose,or create a neutral situation(neutral situations have a probability that while they are a significant in terms of occurrence, may not provide preferences/advantages for a surface.
more on 2nd group- this group includes traits like ratio of fast-twitch fibers, plain old stamina, stamina and/or explosive(a number of traits could fill in a blank for )"x" following a moderate cardiovascular exertion, top speed, acceleration from various gaits(thinking more specific, but "gait" captures the basic idea). This set of traits is the coolest and most potentially profitable, because the forces themselves vary from race to race, and are commonly misunderstood.



the main concept here with what i call the 2nd category of traits, is that while these genetic traits don't DIRECTLY effect the ability to handle a specific surface, they do so indirectly. However they depend on the various FORCES of the surface, the track dimensions, the competition, and races shape, where the DIRECT-GROUP1 traits (like having the ultimate turf-shaped hoove) is a 1-step-shopper solution and nothing else interferes with that trait per se.
For example fast-twitch fibers would aid dirt in general more, but runners also depend on the FORCES
for example short sprints would be a race distance(force) that would favor the fast-twitch trait runners on any surface, provided the surfaces were well groomed and dry- would be a big advantage to the fast-twitch genetically enhanced runners. More so if it is a junky track with an inside post bias and they had the inside post, moreso if the fast-twitch horses were the lone speed and the track itself was favoring speed. etc... tHE GROUP2 genetic traits can be successful in many scenarios, and are DEPENDANT upon the forces, and for horseplayyaz concerned with making pappa' they are important because rivals(other horseplayers),fans,trainers,etc... will at times confuse the 2nd group of genetic traits as being a surface-specific aptitude.

[Gallop58]

My head is spinning with the bulk of this thread, so I'm going back to the beginning (and because it makes me feel special to offer my unsolicited opinion),
Re: "Generally speaking, do horses pass on a preference for a specific surface to their progeny? In other words, do turf horses pass on a preference for turf and dirt horses a preference to dirt more often than not?"

Though I voted yes, I personally believe that "more often than not" may not be true. I think it is less than "more often than not" but still a % worthwhile of consideration (as a breeder). As a handicapper, I'd judge the horse in front of me whenever possible.
Unscientifically, I think a dislike for a certain surface my be more prominent than an appreciation for one in particular.
I believe that a distance preference is more likely inherited vs. a surface preference.
Am also posting because I try to never miss an opportunity to post one of my favourite all time racing quotes: (only slightly applicable to the original question, but may be more applicable to the ensuing flying fur...)

"There is an enormous amount of pedigree expertise available,
but it is noticeable that much of it seems to be provided
by those who have not themselves been outstandingly successful
as owners or breeders. We need to remember that basically our
purchase will be unable to call on his relative in his hour
of need [I love that line :) ], and we should select those whose own physique gives
hope of success.
Bill O'Gorman, Racing Horses: About My Father's Business

One of the better racing books out there and a free online read:

http://www.racinghorsesbook.com/

Good Racing,

[Robert Fischer]

In the USA turf breeding has some overlap with Stamina breeding.


It's pretty cool that arguably the best USA turfer at the moment is by Tale of the Cat

[bisket]

Could you please explain this in some intelligent detail?

How exactly does a poll of this nature
"Do horses pass on a surface preference to their progeny?" show that he DOESN'T HAVE A CLUE HOW TO FIT BREEDING INTO HIS HANDICAPPING ROUTINE?

Please break it down for me, because I would really like to understand how an innocent question like that proves he has no clue how to handicap with breeding information (as if that's even a requirement to be a successful handicapper).

You do realize you could ignore breeding from here until eternity and STILL make a long term profit at handicapping. You realize this, correct? But I digress.

And going around calling other members of this board "dumb ass" (or "dumbarse" as you so creatively named it) isn't the formula for sticking around too much longer. You've done this multiple times already. You're running out of good will. I know you don't really care, but I just thought I'd tell you anyway.
yes you could ignore breeding and make a profit on dirt, but you will have a hard time making a profit this winter at santa anita if you don't have a good understanding of bloodlines. the question behind this pole won't help anyone understand bloodlines in relation to a horse moving from poly to dirt. thats the point. i apoligize for the language, but he had it coming. he continues to attack other posters that have turned the other cheek continuously in relation to his attacks.

[Nitro]

You're calling others pompous?

I grew up with horses. I’ve owned horses. And I’ve certainly bet on horses, often utilizing “generalized statistical nonsense.” Yet, I rarely find it necessary to mention these facts when I post. Why? Simple, it doesn’t make my opinion on something like the topic of breeding anymore legitimate or valid than anyone else on the board.

And where's your "expert" opinion on DaHoss' question?Yes, I am! What’s it to you? Instead of offering an environment for a reasonably sensible and friendly discussion, some here (that call themselves handicappers) have obviously berated others who just might have more knowledge about that side of the game. You’ll also notice that the subsequent more intelligent comments in this thread that offered something of substance are nearly ignored. Instead the bashing continues by those same individuals who simply want to create more of their self-serving drama. (Maybe it’s an attempt to keep threads like this alive).

My “expert” opinion is of no consequence to this rudimentary poll. If these people have never heard the expression “Horses for Courses” and how that might relate to breeding then what can I tell you?

What you rely on for information or how you bet is entirely up to you. I’m certainly not going to attempt to enlighten someone with so much “horse sense”. I totally agree with you about not offering opinions about topics that are out of the realm of our expertise. So why bother responding to a poll that is purely subjective from a handicapper’s perspective?

However, you’ve brought up an interesting topic which again seems to be ignored by a few on this thread. They seem to think that the betting population is ONLY comprised of handicappers. BIG MISTAKE! From what you’ve mentioned my friend it seems that you are among those like me, who are not only more involved in business side of the game, but when the occasion arises attempt to take advantage of information that goes well beyond the written word. My motivation for this has more often then not been related to covering the costs of caring for and maintaining a sound racing animal. I mention it only because it’s something else that the handicappers conveniently ignore. They cry over miniscule expenses related to their betting experiences when in reality it’s all just part of the cost of doing business. If you can’t take the heat then get out of the kitchen!

BTW, those of you who listen to comments about illegal “drug use” are once again hearing it from others who have no other rational to explain the failures of their betting experiences. I’m not that naive to believe that it doesn’t goes on from time to time, but I also believe from my personal experience that most in the game would not want to risk the loss their livelihoods.

[Nikki1997]

Real horses aren't as scary as you make them out to be...

LOL. You have to be one of the most ill informed people ever. Ever.
If you're talking about a horse who has been taught to go in a circle to give pony rides, you'd be right.

Try taking on a 17+ hands stallion who has taken his trainer's arm off. If I was scared, I couldn't have dealt with this guy.

Go commune with a breeding stallion who has mares waiting on him. Yeaaaaahhh. I'd bet your hair would stand on end if you saw how some of these guys react when it's time to mate with a mare. Try easing up to a 17 hd. stallion that weighs 1600 lb. that doesn't give a crap if you're there or not.

Go pay a visit to some mares on Equipoise.

You have some warped sense that all horses are the same. They are not. They are not. Once again, they are not.

[Dahoss9698]

yes you could ignore breeding and make a profit on dirt, but you will have a hard time making a profit this winter at santa anita if you don't have a good understanding of bloodlines. the question behind this pole won't help anyone understand bloodlines in relation to a horse moving from poly to dirt. thats the point. i apoligize for the language, but he had it coming. he continues to attack other posters that have turned the other cheek continuously in relation to his attacks.

This is an unbelievably stupid post. Even for you. What are you even talking about?

[Cardus]

LOL. You have to be one of the most ill informed people ever. Ever.
If you're talking about a horse who has been taught to go in a circle to give pony rides, you'd be right.

Try taking on a 17+ hands stallion who has taken his trainer's arm off. If I was scared, I couldn't have dealt with this guy.

Go commune with a breeding stallion who has mares waiting on him. Yeaaaaahhh. I'd bet your hair would stand on end if you saw how some of these guys react when it's time to mate with a mare. Try easing up to a 17 hd. stallion that weighs 1600 lb. that doesn't give a crap if you're there or not.

Go pay a visit to some mares on Equipoise.

You have some warped sense that all horses are the same. They are not. They are not. Once again, they are not.

Chutzpah.

And lots of it.

This is an embarrassing post.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Yes, I am! What’s it to you? Instead of offering an environment for a reasonably sensible and friendly discussion, some here (that call themselves handicappers) have obviously berated others who just might have more knowledge about that side of the game. You’ll also notice that the subsequent more intelligent comments in this thread that offered something of substance are nearly ignored. Instead the bashing continues by those same individuals who simply want to create more of their self-serving drama. (Maybe it’s an attempt to keep threads like this alive).

My “expert” opinion is of no consequence to this rudimentary poll. If these people have never heard the expression “Horses for Courses” and how that might relate to breeding then what can I tell you?

What you rely on for information or how you bet is entirely up to you. I’m certainly not going to attempt to enlighten someone with so much “horse sense”. I totally agree with you about not offering opinions about topics that are out of the realm of our expertise. So why bother responding to a poll that is purely subjective from a handicapper’s perspective?

However, you’ve brought up an interesting topic which again seems to be ignored by a few on this thread. They seem to think that the betting population is ONLY comprised of handicappers. BIG MISTAKE! From what you’ve mentioned my friend it seems that you are among those like me, who are not only more involved in business side of the game, but when the occasion arises attempt to take advantage of information that goes well beyond the written word. My motivation for this has more often then not been related to covering the costs of caring for and maintaining a sound racing animal. I mention it only because it’s something else that the handicappers conveniently ignore. They cry over miniscule expenses related to their betting experiences when in reality it’s all just part of the cost of doing business. If you can’t take the heat then get out of the kitchen!

BTW, those of you who listen to comments about illegal “drug use” are once again hearing it from others who have no other rational to explain the failures of their betting experiences. I’m not that naive to believe that it doesn’t goes on from time to time, but I also believe from my personal experience that most in the game would not want to risk the loss their livelihoods.

You called others pompous - what's it to me? You seem fairly pompous, so I found it odd.

It appears that your definition of "Horses for Courses" is incorrect. From the context of your comment, you seem to think it refers to a horse preferring turf over dirt. That is incorrect. It refers to a horse liking a specific surface at a specific track.

In general, the written word (the Racing Form) is much, much more valuable in selecting winners than your opinion as a breeder, trainer or owner (ditto for my opinion). I'm sorry if this makes you feel less important.

Your motivation remains a mystery to me, as your statement on the matter doesn't make any sense.

Legal (e.g., clenbuterol should be banned) and illegal drugs are a problem in the sport. Period.

[Saratoga_Mike]

LOL. You have to be one of the most ill informed people ever. Ever.
If you're talking about a horse who has been taught to go in a circle to give pony rides, you'd be right.

Try taking on a 17+ hands stallion who has taken his trainer's arm off. If I was scared, I couldn't have dealt with this guy.

Go commune with a breeding stallion who has mares waiting on him. Yeaaaaahhh. I'd bet your hair would stand on end if you saw how some of these guys react when it's time to mate with a mare. Try easing up to a 17 hd. stallion that weighs 1600 lb. that doesn't give a crap if you're there or not.

Go pay a visit to some mares on Equipoise.

You have some warped sense that all horses are the same. They are not. They are not. Once again, they are not.

Unless you're racing in WV, why are your mares on Equipoise? Recoverying from injury?

[lamboguy]

good poll!

good horse run good on broken glass, but sometimes bad ones run no good on dirt and are champions on turf.

i remember horses like najinskyII, tom rolfe, green dancer, and round table that their offspring might run bad on the dirt and and show no form at all and all of a sudden you find them on turf and they pay $80 in the good old days.

i suppose that turf breeding gets passed along from generation to generation.

the best sire i have ever seen was mr. prospector his foals ran no matter who the mother was and it didn't matter how crooked and uncorrect they were.

wildcat heir is the same way, and i got 20 of them on the way to a track near you in 2 years.

[Robert Fischer]

shamps illy zay

[thaskalos]

Yes, I am! What’s it to you? Instead of offering an environment for a reasonably sensible and friendly discussion, some here (that call themselves handicappers) have obviously berated others who just might have more knowledge about that side of the game. You’ll also notice that the subsequent more intelligent comments in this thread that offered something of substance are nearly ignored. Instead the bashing continues by those same individuals who simply want to create more of their self-serving drama. (Maybe it’s an attempt to keep threads like this alive).

My “expert” opinion is of no consequence to this rudimentary poll. If these people have never heard the expression “Horses for Courses” and how that might relate to breeding then what can I tell you?

What you rely on for information or how you bet is entirely up to you. I’m certainly not going to attempt to enlighten someone with so much “horse sense”. I totally agree with you about not offering opinions about topics that are out of the realm of our expertise. So why bother responding to a poll that is purely subjective from a handicapper’s perspective?

However, you’ve brought up an interesting topic which again seems to be ignored by a few on this thread. They seem to think that the betting population is ONLY comprised of handicappers. BIG MISTAKE! From what you’ve mentioned my friend it seems that you are among those like me, who are not only more involved in business side of the game, but when the occasion arises attempt to take advantage of information that goes well beyond the written word. My motivation for this has more often then not been related to covering the costs of caring for and maintaining a sound racing animal. I mention it only because it’s something else that the handicappers conveniently ignore. They cry over miniscule expenses related to their betting experiences when in reality it’s all just part of the cost of doing business. If you can’t take the heat then get out of the kitchen!

BTW, those of you who listen to comments about illegal “drug use” are once again hearing it from others who have no other rational to explain the failures of their betting experiences. I’m not that naive to believe that it doesn’t goes on from time to time, but I also believe from my personal experience that most in the game would not want to risk the loss their livelihoods.Comments like these convince me beyond any doubt that we "serious" horseplayers are hopelessly addicted to this game...and we therefore deserve all the injustices we endure while playing it.

How else can we explain the fact that we enthusiastically support a game which treats us with contempt such as this?

The racetracks rob us blind with onerous takeouts...the horsemen deceive us every chance they get in their zeal to "darken" their horses' form in order to profit at our expense...illegal drugs are out of control...and when the horseplayers - whose wagering dollars support all this insanity - dare to raise their voice in protest, we are told by the "Nitros" of the sport that "if we can't take the heat we should get out of the kitchen."

When are we finally going to smarten up and realize that this game, in its current form, does not deserve our participation?

[PaceAdvantage]

LOL. You have to be one of the most ill informed people ever. Ever.
If you're talking about a horse who has been taught to go in a circle to give pony rides, you'd be right.

Try taking on a 17+ hands stallion who has taken his trainer's arm off. If I was scared, I couldn't have dealt with this guy.

Go commune with a breeding stallion who has mares waiting on him. Yeaaaaahhh. I'd bet your hair would stand on end if you saw how some of these guys react when it's time to mate with a mare. Try easing up to a 17 hd. stallion that weighs 1600 lb. that doesn't give a crap if you're there or not.

Go pay a visit to some mares on Equipoise.

You have some warped sense that all horses are the same. They are not. They are not. Once again, they are not.Once again. Real horses aren't as scary as you make them out to be.

You keep spinning things around though...you act as if being around horses is akin to bull riding...you can pick out all the scary situations you'd like...the fact remains that horses aren't as big and mean and scary as you make them out to be, and plenty of people around here, including myself, have been around plenty of different types of horses.

You don't have the market cornered on experience my dear(s).

[cj]

Once again. Real horses aren't as scary as you make them out to be.

You keep spinning things around though...you act as if being around horses is akin to bull riding...you can pick out all the scary situations you'd like...the fact remains that horses aren't as big and mean and scary as you make them out to be, and plenty of people around here, including myself, have been around plenty of different types of horses.

You don't have the market cornered on experience my dear(s).

Horses aren't scary. Scary is when Tom and I reached for that last free Amstel Light that you brought...that was scary...but I got it.

[Nitro]

You called others pompous - what's it to me? You seem fairly pompous, so I found it odd.

It appears that your definition of "Horses for Courses" is incorrect. From the context of your comment, you seem to think it refers to a horse preferring turf over dirt. That is incorrect. It refers to a horse liking a specific surface at a specific track.

In general, the written word (the Racing Form) is much, much more valuable in selecting winners than your opinion as a breeder, trainer or owner (ditto for my opinion). I'm sorry if this makes you feel less important.

Your motivation remains a mystery to me, as your statement on the matter doesn't make any sense.

Legal (e.g., clenbuterol should be banned) and illegal drugs are a problem in the sport. Period.I’m sorry you feel that because it was fairly obvious to me at least that some here couldn’t accept the comments made by someone who is apparently involved in the breeding aspect of the game. So of course the easiest thing to do from an ignorant point of view is just respond with ridicule not of the commentary but of the person making it. That’s pretty sad if you ask me! But it’s certainly not uncommon on forums where pretentious comments are the rule rather then the exception.

I’m not sure what you’re reading into my “Horses for Courses” comment. It wasn’t a “definition” by any stretch of the imagination. I simply referred to a very basic idiom that generally means that horse’s can perform better over certain racing surfaces when both their stride and running styles can take full advantage of their energy. In some circles it’s called efficiency in much the same way that certain tires on a racecar will allow the car to maximize its power on different surfaces.

As I mentioned I really could care less what you value for information as a player. However, since you lay claim to knowing so much about horse flesh, I find your statement about the value of the Racing Form rather intriguing. I’d like you to share with us where the “written word” describes to the reader any of the following:
1) How a horse comes out of a race or a serious workout.
2) The exchange of information between a jockey and a trainer about a performance
3) The current physical condition of a horse before a race.
4) Any behavioral changes that might affect a horse’s performance (good or bad).

I might be a bit presumptuous here, but I don’t expect a reply because I think you know as well as I do that these little tidbits aren’t even considered or at best taken for granted by the majority of players. The assumption is of course that if they’re in the race, they’re in top shape and in it to win it. Does the Form express those indicators too?


Comments like these convince me beyond any doubt that we "serious" horseplayers are hopelessly addicted to this game...and we therefore deserve all the injustices we endure while playing it.

How else can we explain the fact that we enthusiastically support a game which treats us with contempt such as this? MY comments have convinced you that you’re “addicted to this game” ?! Holy Cow! The power of the pen! Sounds like you’re a glutton for punishment. BTW I think you’re confusing contempt with reality. I agree though, the truth can provide some rude awakenings.

The racetracks rob us blind with onerous takeouts...the horsemen deceive us every chance they get in their zeal to "darken" their horses' form in order to profit at our expense...illegal drugs are out of control...and when the horseplayers - whose wagering dollars support all this insanity - dare to raise their voice in protest, we are told by the "Nitros" of the sport that "if we can't take the heat we should get out of the kitchen." Written as a “serious” loser I’m afraid!

When are we finally going to smarten up and realize that this game, in its current form, does not deserve our participation? The game in its current form is how old? And guys like you haven’t changed a bit. Instead trying to understand all aspects of the game, and playing it accordingly you accuse others of robbery and deception. How convenient. You’re right about one thing though. This game and other forms of gambling don’t deserve the participation of sore losers. No one is putting a gun to anyone’s head. So you know where you can stick your little petition.

[PaceAdvantage]

I’m sorry you feel that because it was fairly obvious to me at least that some here couldn’t accept the comments made by someone who is apparently involved in the breeding aspect of the game.Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that Nikki/Mikki is/are involved in the breeding of Thoroughbred race horses.

If this is in fact true, does that make her/their comments MORE or LESS acceptable in your eyes (to use your words in the above quote)?

[Nitro]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that Nikki/Mikki is/are involved in the breeding of Thoroughbred race horses.

If this is in fact true, does that make her/their comments MORE or LESS acceptable in your eyes (to use your words in the above quote)?Obviously those comments would have incredulous value at best, but from what I can see you’re the first person that’s raised the issue for any disbelief of Nikki’s involvement in the breeding aspect of the game. If this is a known fact, then someone might have at least mentioned that possibility.

I wasn’t initially concerned about the comments being plausible. I was taken back by the lack of respect shown to someone who had an interest in writing about it from perhaps a breeder’s perspective. Because I’m not personally involved in that part of the game I was hoping to get something more out of the thread then just a handicapper’s opinion or the results of a poll.

[Robert Fischer]

pure one-SURFACE pedigrees are rare

The only ones i can think of are the hooves, and possibly bone length ratios.
Possibly some others.

"ones"="traits"

single-distance pedigrees are probably more common than single surface

much of the horses we call "turf" bred horses have at least moderate stamina and might lack sprint speed, rather than being turf bears.

"dirt" specialists are at times high-ratio fast-twitch hoss - and really could be fine in turf sprints, although the fast-twitch muscles may be counterproductive over a turf route or a heavy synthetic surface that hasn't been jived up for the yearling sales to favor sprint and speed types more than a "natural?" synth surface...

I also think breeders know or pretend to know a lot less than is advertised about breeding. Stallions and male horses in the pedigree probably mean much less than we pretend they do. One author made a good case about tail-female families and stamina.

there are probably horses that are bred better for specific performance enhancing drugs having a strong enhancing effect. probably NOT intentionally

Some of the so-called blue blood breedings are actually "cheaper" in terms of solid quality and stamina and turf ability while being more geared to speed.

in general if you know your horses, you develop associations with the various horses used for breeding. You can see the names and you will form opinions and associations about the pedigree in question.

[eastie]

In the USA turf breeding has some overlap with Stamina breeding.


It's pretty cool that arguably the best USA turfer at the moment is by Tale of the Cat



I'm pretty sure Get Stormy is by Stormy Atlantic

[cj]

I'm pretty sure Get Stormy is by Stormy Atlantic

He was talking about G1 horses.

[Robert Fischer]

I'm pretty sure Get Stormy is by Stormy Atlantic
He was talking about G1 horses.

FIRST LAUGH O' THE DAY

[Dahoss9698]

I wasn’t initially concerned about the comments being plausible. I was taken back by the lack of respect shown to someone who had an interest in writing about it from perhaps a breeder’s perspective. Because I’m not personally involved in that part of the game I was hoping to get something more out of the thread then just a handicapper’s opinion or the results of a poll.

Help me out here. Didn't Nikki/Mikki/Dikki/Ronnie and Bobby initially show a lack of respect to others in this thread? What about the interest of others in this thread? Is it only important to get the perspective of unicorn breeders? And who the hell knows if anything she is saying is true?

Frankly, who cares what you were hoping to get out of this thread?

[Robert Fischer]

Help me out here. Didn't Nikki/Mikki/Dikki/Ronnie and Bobby initially show a lack of respect to others in this thread?

is this in reference to Robert Goren??

[Dahoss9698]

is this in reference to Robert Goren??

It was in reference to New Edition.

[Robert Fischer]

LOL

[thaskalos]

Written as a “serious” loser I’m afraid!

The game in its current form is how old? And guys like you haven’t changed a bit. Instead trying to understand all aspects of the game, and playing it accordingly you accuse others of robbery and deception. How convenient. You’re right about one thing though. This game and other forms of gambling don’t deserve the participation of sore losers. No one is putting a gun to anyone’s head. So you know where you can stick your little petition.Your anger is misplaced my friend...it should not be displayed in a thread such as this. This in an opinion poll with an 85% winner...and you and Nikkie/Mikkie have hijacked it and turned it into an attack against horseplayers, and their ignorance.

Since you were so adept at identifying me as a loser - and a sore one at that - allow me to tell you what I think about you.

You are an apologist for a game that is run by idiots, and is on the verge of extinction. It already would have become extinct in many states, had it not been for the casino and riverboat casino "handouts" that are currenty keeping it afloat.

And do you know WHY this game is in the shape it's in? You think you do...but you don't!

It's not because "serious losers" like me - who need ready made excuses for their handicapping deficiencies - are constantly complaining and bringing unwarranted negative attention to this game, thus keeping the flocks of new fans away.

It is because people like you fail to realize that customers have to be treated with dignity and respect, especially in a game where 95%+ of them are destined to lose because of the mathematics that govern it.

So...go on pretending to be a knowledgeable handicapper - while at the same time making excuses for the ridiculous way this "sport" is run. (Say...aren't you the same guy/girl who was trying to convince Lamboguy that the after-the-start betdowns we so often see are not a big deal?).

And remember. Having a vast vocabulary is good...but having something worthwhile to say is even better.


P.S. I would ask you if you were a winning player...but I know that this is the sort of information you only share with your "better half".

[Tom]

And do you know WHY this game is in the shape it's in?


Horsemen.

[Dahoss9698]

Your anger is misplaced my friend...it should not be displayed in a thread such as this. This in an opinion poll with an 85% winner...and you and Nikkie/Mikkie have hijacked it and turned it into an attack against horseplayers, and their ignorance.

Since you were so adept at identifying me as a loser - and a sore one at that - allow me to tell you what I think about you.

You are an apologist for a game that is run by idiots, and is on the verge of extinction. It already would have become extinct in many states, had it not been for the casino and riverboat casino "handouts" that are currenty keeping it afloat.

And do you know WHY this game is in the shape it's in? You think you do...but you don't!

It's not because "serious losers" like me - who need ready made excuses for their handicapping deficiencies - are constantly complaining and bringing unwarranted negative attention to this game, thus keeping the flocks of new fans away.

It is because people like you fail to realize that customers have to be treated with dignity and respect, especially in a game where 95%+ of them are destined to lose because of the mathematics that govern it.

So...go on pretending to be a knowledgeable handicapper - while at the same time making excuses for the ridiculous way this "sport" is run. (Say...aren't you the same guy/girl who was trying to convince Lamboguy that the after-the-start betdowns we so often see are not a big deal?).

And remember. Having a vast vocabulary is good...but having something worthwhile to say is even better.


P.S. I would ask you if you were a winning player...but I know that this is the sort of information you only share with your "better half".

KE_hEHWLG04

[nearco]

Obviously those comments would have incredulous value at best, but from what I can see you’re the first person that’s raised the issue for any disbelief of Nikki’s involvement in the breeding aspect of the game. If this is a known fact, then someone might have at least mentioned that possibility.



No, I mentioned it earlier also.
I seriously doubt Nikki breeds TB racehorses. No doubt she is involved with breeding and handling horses (as am I, and possibly others on this forum), but from her comments, esp the "World Champion" comment, I would suspect some other breed.

[WinterTriangle]

. You're the one who told me you rarely bet, remember?

Let's put this one to rest. (lest you continue to use it in 20 more posts every time we have an argument).

I've gone on record publically that I practice an extremely selective model in sports betting. Waiting for the right race means I won't wager but once a week, month, or even once every few months. When I find a race that I feel, with some surety, that not only I can win, but the odds also have to be right, I hit it with some $$$ muscle.:jump:

This is the very essence of "being profitable". Money management 101. I learned it in investing. Now I use it in horse racing.

I don't require a lot of action, and as a result, don't fritter away much money wagering a lot of races. This would be too boring for some. I wait and I'm patient.

Racing has been good to me so far, so I'll I continue to support it. This should make everyone happy, since many are leaving the sport in droves.

My wagering pattern is a matter of style. I see you play 12-16 races on a card or two cards. I don't. I may play 1 race out of 10 cards.


You're also the one who has asked me for advice, numerous times

Not sure why you continue to HARP on 2 PM's we exchanged earlier in the year. This is 5th of 6th time. I have had good handicappping exchanges with other members in PMs, but they haven't posted about it. :D

But let's address it. There were 1 or 2 races you did good on many months ago. I PMed you, not only to congratulate you (you should try it sometime) but to get your insight on those particular races. As I remember, it was a trainer angle.


But here's the deal: I don't ask your advice about breeding or pedigree. That is not an insult, so don't take it as one.

There are some seriously knowledgeable people in this arena, Lauren Stitch, et al. and many others. You can't gain access without some good subscriptions. Members here are always saying "put your money behind your convictions." I do. I suggest subscriptions to Steve Davidowitz's Gradeoneracing, Pedigreequery, and other databases because that is what I consider a good investment. Some people like to buy figures, clocker reports, PPs, whatever. I don't begrudge them. :)

Pedigree/breeding isn't a *big* topic on Paceadvantage. There are but a handful of complex or even lengthy topics about it since I've been here. So, no--- I don't come here to learn about pedigree and breeding. :) The conversations about it here are ultra sparse.

IN your breeding topic:

1) I made a cordial post to your breeding poll, and offered value-added reading lists, which other posters appreciated.

2) You felt it necessary to make a sarcastic snarky reply in return.

3) When you draw your sword (for no reason), expect me to draw mine.


This is a very simple formula, and gets repeated a lot. Somebody counted about 27 topics recently that turned into pigfights---the common denomonater was that YOU were in them.

Many people find that to be disruptive. Some like the "entertainment value." :D I had you on ignore for a while, as it seemed like you were getting over your pugnaciousness. There are no topics for many moons, that I entered into and got nasty with you. In reality, EVERY time I have a run in with you it is because you followed some of MY posts and did that. Anyone can do a search and see this. :)


The difference between us is perspective.

No. It's a different ethic. Your insulting sarcasm would not work well in the real world I inhabit. It only works behind a keyboard. Most guys I know, if you talked to them like that, they'd "put you on the ground" pretty fast. :cool: Ouchie!


You think you have it all figured out and frankly, to those who have spent over half of their lives playing it's insulting.

Speak for yourself. I have had terrifc invitations, PMs, and friendships based on those in our game who welcome passion, devotion, and infectious excitement in others, both here and other forums. I'm having a ball.

There is nobody who has it all figured out. Sometimes though, you figure out a few things. If it bothers you that somebody with less time in than you is successful in some instances, that is more about you isn't it? There are some dynamite sites with fantastic information, offered by those who may have less time in than you.

(Unlike the US Government, there is no tenure requirement to be successful or give yourself a raise in this game. Having worked for the US Govt. the "LIFERS" were often avoided by anyone with a positive attitude and a fresh perspective. That is because many of the "lifers" were cynical, bitter types.)

I personally don't plan to spend 30 years being "unsucessful". It hasn't happened to me in other endeavors, and if it starts to happen in horse racing, then you can be sure I'll be moving on to something else. I think the sport deserves supporting.


Can anyone learn a lot about a subject if they devote themselves to it? In only a few years? YES. They sure can. It is about intention, intensity, and putting in the work.

Is my immersion in that subject matter strong? Yes. I don't mind saying that. What is it about this which bothers you? Is it "okay" with you that I know something? :)

My other major immersion in reading nad studying----- materials by horsemen. While they don't seem to enjoy a huge fan club or following here, again, that's okay. I just found that I have little to no interest in reading {most} touts, public handicappers, sportswriters, etc. Sue me. I spent some time doing that, and it didn't prove to be profitable for me, nor did I feel I was making any progress in my HR knowledge. So, I gave up my subscriptions to those things.

That of course, is an entirely PERSONAL and subjective preference. I will on occasion, read Sid Fernando, Bruno de Julio, and Jessica Chapel. (she thought MTB could win the KY Derby, if I remember right). I do still own all my books on pace handicapping, because of course, they were useful (for US races).

My MOST profitable handicapping tool? REPLAYS!!!!!!!! What I myself see. Most of my wagers are from stable notifications.....which are based on ...........REPLAYS! If I need more, then I put them thru my pedigree blender, and "maybe" a good workout analyst I respect, as well as what clues the horsemen give.

there you have it, my horse racing and wagering pracitices. Yes, I like zenyatta. Yes, I learn a lot from horsemen perspective. Yes, I know and study pedigree.

I know that none of those things puts me in the majority here. Hope you don't find THAT too objectionable.

[tzipi]

Thanks, guys, for making me laugh. Hey, keep on thinking everything is black and white. What a brain trust. :)

I'd LOVE to have some of you here at my place where you'd have to actually interact with these animals you bet on. I do believe I'd put money on the first ones to run screaming and hollaring away if a horse came within ten feet of them. Hahaha.

Do you really work with horses? Just honestly asking Nikki. I hotwalked for a couple of trainers when I was 19 till about 24. You're acting like being around horses is like being around lions or bears! Horses can get spooked and rear up or you can have a young colt who's a bit hard to handle. That's normal, they ARE animals. But horses are gentle animals. They are not scary and are alot gentler than most animals as long as your're treating them right. "Run away screaming and hollaring?" :confused:

[Cardus]

Let's put this one to rest. (lest you continue to use it in 20 more posts every time we have an argument)...........

More Hemingway, and a lot less Faulkner, PLEASE!!!!

My goodness, did you know that Cliff's Notes has an edition of your posts?

[nijinski]

Do you really work with horses? Just honestly asking Nikki. I hotwalked for a couple of trainers when I was 19 till about 24. You're acting like being around horses is like being around lions or bears! Horses can get spooked and rear up or you can have a young colt who's a bit hard to handle. That's normal, they ARE animals. But horses are gentle animals. They are not scary and are alot gentler than most animals as long as your're treating them right. "Run away screaming and hollaring?" :confused:

I did the same Tzippi ,,, the backstretch then Equine Insurance for a short time.
I owned a small horse Arab/Welsh , nothing like the racehorses on the backstretch . The nice thing is that no one talked down to me. The first time I had a colt I really
couldn't handle , someone took the shank and patiently showed me me that I
was fighting with him and I wouldn't win. Got scolded for not paying attention once. You learn early that yes you can get hurt or the horse can get hurt .
But you're right it's not like being in a lions cage.
And guess what , many people in the business make wagers and send people to wager for them. Just like us.

[PaceAdvantage]

Obviously those comments would have incredulous value at best, but from what I can see you’re the first person that’s raised the issue for any disbelief of Nikki’s involvement in the breeding aspect of the game. If this is a known fact, then someone might have at least mentioned that possibility.

I wasn’t initially concerned about the comments being plausible. I was taken back by the lack of respect shown to someone who had an interest in writing about it from perhaps a breeder’s perspective. Because I’m not personally involved in that part of the game I was hoping to get something more out of the thread then just a handicapper’s opinion or the results of a poll.Let's face it. She never would have written those comments had this thread been started by someone else.

She has never claimed to be in the Thoroughbred racehorse breeding game, and from her comments, it seems that she is involved with different breeds other than TBs. Of course, she can claim anything she wishes.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm starting to delete more and more posts lately...don't think that's going to stop unless some folks pull it back a few notches...

[Dahoss9698]

Hope you don't find THAT too objectionable.

Since my first effort was deleted, I'll try again. First off, get over yourself. Who posts something that long on a message board and expects someone to read it? You're not that interesting to begin with and when you blather on about yourself it's pure torture. There was nothing cordial in your initial post. It was the usual know it all nonsense.

Everything I said in my post was true, regardless of how you spin it. Grits had you pegged perfectly a few weeks ago. Your entire act is tired and grandiose. Your expertise of seemingly everything, while being confused by the basics is laughable.

It has nothing to do with liking Zenyatta or pedigree or whatever else you think you are an expert in this week. No need to be dramatic. It has to do with you thinking you know it all. You don't, not even close.

[PaceAdvantage]

It was deleted for a reason...

In any event, these feuds are done. Over. No more.

People want to correct a mistake? That's cool. Folks want to debate the merits of a statement...go for it...

What isn't cool anymore is this tiresome back and forth, same old same old that has been going on for months...

It's really ponderous at this point.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

None of this will matter once the Quadruple Quadfecta comes into play.

[Shelby]

I'm starting to delete more and more posts lately...don't think that's going to stop unless some folks pull it back a few notches...

Don't delete the good ones until I get to read them! :lol:;)

[Cardus]

Since my first effort was deleted, I'll try again. First off, get over yourself. Who posts something that long on a message board and expects someone to read it? You're not that interesting to begin with and when you blather on about yourself it's pure torture. There was nothing cordial in your initial post. It was the usual know it all nonsense.

Everything I said in my post was true, regardless of how you spin it. Grits had you pegged perfectly a few weeks ago. Your entire act is tired and grandiose. Your expertise of seemingly everything, while being confused by the basics is laughable.

It has nothing to do with liking Zenyatta or pedigree or whatever else you think you are an expert in this week. No need to be dramatic. It has to do with you thinking you know it all. You don't, not even close.

Sharp summary.

[Robert Fischer]

Can anyone learn a lot about a subject if they devote themselves to it?

sure, anyone can learn "a lot about the subject", but "devotion" is no guarantee of being a good horseplayer.
A wise teacher is often worth more than time or commitment.

[Robert Fischer]

This is a very simple formula, and gets repeated a lot. Somebody counted about 27 topics recently that turned into ...fights---the common denomonater was that YOU were in them.


the best thing that you can do is simply to ignore the people you have a problem with. Either use the ignore function or better yet simply do not reply.
Apparently you are a target or a "prey". unfortunately, (or as part of the normal cycle of how things are) everything can't possibly be regulated and moderated and some people are attracted and excited by targets and will jab at folks within the grey areas. By responding at all, you are doing the equivalent of participating, by writing "books" with personal responses you are attracting more attention as well as rewarding the aggressor. The stuff seems witty or smart at the time, but when the other person involved doesn't think like that, it turns out to just not work.

[Bruddah]

For what it's worth, some traits are passed on and others aren't. Trying to determine which will be transferred is like playing roulette, you never know what number will pop up.

Casual observation of this thread: I suppose it's different generations and different times, but I grew up in an era where you never verbally or physically insulted or degraded women. Especially the way I've seen the ladies in this thread treated. You can disagree with them in a civil manner, but the tone of these posts go beyond socially acceptable standards. :ThmbDown:

[Tom]

_I_oV0qd_IY

[Tom]

oakW9NO18Ig&NR=1

[Bruddah]

Maybe you could cut down some on your 42,867 posts by taking your own advice to just shut up! :D

[Cardus]

For what it's worth, some traits are passed on and others aren't. Trying to determine which will be transferred is like playing roulette, you never know what number will pop up.

Casual observation of this thread: I suppose it's different generations and different times, but I grew up in an era where you never verbally or physically insulted or degraded women. Especially the way I've seen the ladies in this thread treated. You can disagree with them in a civil manner, but the tone of these posts go beyond socially acceptable standards. :ThmbDown:

And I grew up in an era where people had thicker skin.

[Bruddah]

And I grew up in an era where people had thicker skin.
Are you saying I should treat you and Tom the same as I would ladies? With you guys, if you can't take it, don't try to dish it out.

My first post was very innocuous but don't ask me to treat you like a lady if you want me to "shut up". I was also raised where we definitely hit back. So, pull your pink panties out of your crack. As far as growing up with thick skin, it obviously shows with your thick skull. :D

[Robert Fischer]

Casual observation of this thread: I suppose it's different generations and different times, but I grew up in an era where you never verbally or physically insulted or degraded women. Especially the way I've seen the ladies in this thread treated. You can disagree with them in a civil manner, but the tone of these posts go beyond socially acceptable standards. :ThmbDown:

Good to see some men still believe in the code of chivalry.

i didn't read the thread(nor was i involved in the comments other than to give the advice u see on this page), so i didn't see the degrading comments.

However I do stand by what I said about people choosing to not be a "victim" on the internet.

For the most part there is no "man or woman" on the internet (no sex), and there shouldn't be on a horse racing forum. Maybe a dating forum or something who knows... So it was unfortunate if there were sex-related comments. But if a man or woman wants to post ditzy comments in a truth-based forum they are just as exposed to a critical response as any other man or woman. Not saying that is what WT did, I really am just speaking in general terms, reading the soap opera doesn't interest me. I also would be surprised if WT posted things that couldn't be defended with the merits of her own debate that she would be upset about if she lost a fair debate(that any man could lose) considering that she considers herself as knowledgeable as a man.

[Cardus]

Are you saying I should treat you and Tom the same as I would ladies? With you guys, if you can't take it, don't try to dish it out.

My first post was very innocuous but don't ask me to treat you like a lady if you want me to "shut up". I was also raised where we definitely hit back. So, pull your pink panties out of your crack. As far as growing up with thick skin, it obviously shows with your thick skull. :D

It looks like you're lumping me in with Tom's post above -- in which I haven't seen whatever he imbedded with his post -- and I don't get where that is coming from. I know that I did not tell you to "shut up."

I have no problem dishing or taking, as you put it. I think I've established that.

When it comes to ideas, I do not distinguish between men and women, because criticism of an idea is not personal, at least with me. Criticising or lampooning ideas has nothing to do being courteous in the way that most men are taught to treat women.

I like your use of the emoticon, by the way. Very lady-like.

[Tom]

Are you saying I should treat you and Tom the same as I would ladies? With you guys, if you can't take it, don't try to dish it out.

My first post was very innocuous but don't ask me to treat you like a lady if you want me to "shut up". I was also raised where we definitely hit back. So, pull your pink panties out of your crack. As far as growing up with thick skin, it obviously shows with your thick skull. :D

You seem to be lost here.
You have to look at Post 112 and 113 TOGETHER.
Neither one have a thing to do with you.

[Bruddah]

You seem to be lost here.
You have to look at Post 112 and 113 TOGETHER.
Neither one have a thing to do with you.

If that's the case, my apologies to you both. Obviously, I read it as you telling me to shut up... NEVER MIND! (barrump bump bump) :blush:

[Tom]

If that's the case, my apologies to you both. Obviously, I read it as you telling me to shut up... NEVER MIND! (barrump bump bump) :blush:

:DNot to worry...posts 105-112-113 were meant to go together, PA complaining about name-calling, one about getting along, followed by a SHUT UP! :D

It was late and I was watching Dave's video at the same time...