Shirreffs: Even if Zenyatta Loses the Classic She Should Still Be HOY

[andymays]

Shirreffs Talks Zenyatta | BloodHorse.com

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59370/shirreffs-talks-zenyatta

Excerpt:

On his disappointment if she would not win Horse of the Year in 2010, even if she loses the BC Classic:

“I would think it would be almost too much. For what she does for the industry for the last three years, I would say that would be a real slap in the face. Not only on performance but what’s she’s done for racing.”

[andymays]

Shirreffs says Zenyatta deserves '10 Horse of the Year - Thoroughbred Times

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2010/october/15/zenyatta-shirreffs-hoty.aspx

[cpitt84]

It's a shame they were too careful with Zenyatta. While I think she would beat most of the horses on dirt if she had tried, her owners did her an injustice by us never knowing her true potential.

While going 19-19 is incredible and Zenyatta is truly talented and remarkable, her owners expect this award for playing it safe.

At least they are planning on running her in the Classic! With the way they have chosen her races, I am surprised they don't choose the ladies classic (last year applies as well).

Why play it so safe most of the time and risk it at the end? Why not risk the whole time and build on greatness?

[andymays]

It's a shame they were too careful with Zenyatta. While I think she would beat most of the horses on dirt if she had tried, her owners did her an injustice by us never knowing her true potential.

While going 19-19 is incredible and Zenyatta is truly talented and remarkable, her owners expect this award for playing it safe.

At least they are planning on running her in the Classic! With the way they have chosen her races, I am surprised they don't choose the ladies classic (last year applies as well).

Why play it so safe most of the time and risk it at the end? Why not risk the whole time and build on greatness?


Right. :ThmbUp:

They chose the campaign. They had multiple opportunities to take on grade 1 males without travelling. Some of those races were run on the same day that she ran against her own sex.

[the little guy]

Shirreffs Talks Zenyatta | BloodHorse.com

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59370/shirreffs-talks-zenyatta

Excerpt:

On his disappointment if she would not win Horse of the Year in 2010, even if she loses the BC Classic:

“I would think it would be almost too much. For what she does for the industry for the last three years, I would say that would be a real slap in the face. Not only on performance but what’s she’s done for racing.”

What exactly has she done for racing? Lowered handle? Raised Takeout?

I'm confused.

[Charlie D]

Wasted her talent on tin pot races in Cali cpitt. She should have been competing on a World Stage. similar to Ouija Board, Pride, Giants Causeway, Sakhee , Deep Impact, Curlin, Cigar and so on.

[andymays]

What exactly has she done for racing? Lowered handle? Raised Takeout?

I'm confused.

If you're asking me then it is that she is popular with the public and has brought more attention to Horse Racing.

Do I think she should be voted HOY if she loses? Of course not. It's not even a close call if a few others in the field win the race.

What's up with the lowered handle and raised takeout stuff?

[cpitt84]

It sounds as if Sheriffs believes that female horses, specifically zenyatta, would be too depleted after a race with the boys.

I don't know. Zenyatta is as big of a mare as you will find. She, by all accounts, is very athletic, strong, and bounces back after her races.

They are protecting her record and theres no doubt that Zenyatta is being looked upon as fragile. Which seems ridiculous to me.

This article really made me aware of how protective and overly cautious Zen's owners are.

[andymays]

It sounds as if Sheriffs believes that female horses, specifically zenyatta, would be too depleted after a race with the boys.

I don't know. Zenyatta is as big of a mare as you will find. She, by all accounts, is very athletic, strong, and bounces back after her races.

They are protecting her record and theres no doubt that Zenyatta is being looked upon as fragile. Which seems ridiculous to me.

This article really made me aware of how protective and overly cautious Zen's owners are.

Their problem is that they are surrounded by people telling them what they want to hear instead of what they should hear. There are quite a few people out here who are afraid to give an honest opinion about her weak campaign this year. It's ridiculous.

They campaigned for runner up HOY again and they just might get it again.

[cpitt84]

Wasted her talent on tin pot races in Cali cpitt. She should have been competing on a World Stage. similar to Ouija Board, Pride, Giants Causeway, Sakhee , Deep Impact, Curlin, Cigar and so on.

It seems that other horses in history with losses were really the all time greats. The owners took risks and sometimes they lost but most of the time it paid off.

It makes me mad that Zenyatta really could be an all time great, not just a mare, if her owners took more risks.

[cpitt84]

Their problem is that they are surrounded by people telling them what they want to hear instead of what they should hear. There are quite a few people out here who are afraid to give an honest opinion about her weak campaign this year. It's rediculous.

They campaigned for runner up HOY again and they just might get it again.

Yeah, that's true. Here's the thing: does Sheriffs think to himself about who she is running against? Of course he does. Is he just protecting her record and running up her victories?

You think someone would have told him he should run her against males. The mosses could have decided this too.

But, she is spoiled. They are treating her like a queen instead of a racehorse.

[cpitt84]

Also, it seems he made some hint that the BCC may not be her last race.

If they do decide to race her in 2011, wouldn't it be great if they decided to race against all males?

Would never happen but THAT would be icing on the cake.

[cpitt84]

Here's a quote from a poster on thoroughbredtimes:

"At the HP for the Lady's Secret Moonwalker and I were over the winner's circle area. As Jerry and Ann were leaving I yelled down at them "Jerry, one more year. One more year!" Ann looked up pointed at me and smiled. Maybe she misunderstood what I said, or maybe they are considering one more year. *fingers crossed*
"

[bks]

Shirreffs has the wrong criteria in mind for HOY. He does seem a bit out of touch with respect to her campaign this season.

[ArlJim78]

He has to know that by going with the easy campaign it meant that she would have to win the BCC to win HOY. I've been giving the guy the benefit of the doubt, but this comment is dumb. HOY is not about who has done what for racing. I figured he knew that all the marbles were on the line for Zenyatta in the Classic. It didn't have to be that way, but that's the path they chose. If they lose and then whine about not getting HOY it would be kinda pathetic.

[andymays]

He has to know that by going with the easy campaign it meant that she would have to win the BCC to win HOY. I've been giving the guy the benefit of the doubt, but this comment is dumb. HOY is not about who has done what for racing. I figured he knew that all the marbles were on the line for Zenyatta in the Classic. It didn't have to be that way, but that's the path they chose. If they lose and then whine about not getting HOY it would be kinda pathetic.

They thought they were going to win easy last year and were absolutely shocked that they didn't win. Like I said they're surrounded by people telling them she's the best ever. I agree with you it is really dumb for Shirreffs to say something like this. It's also the kind of comment that pisses off a lot of the poeple who vote on HOY.

[Charlie D]

Zen could be a Belmont winner, a Dubai World Cup winner and a Classic winner if it were not for Rockies.

[Pine Tree Lane]

Who wins Horse of the Year if Musket Man wins the Classic?

[cpitt84]

Zen could be a Belmont winner, a Dubai World Cup winner and a Classic winner if it were not for Rockies.


haha, very true.

[andymays]

Sentiment finally in Zenyatta's favor | Daily Racing Form

http://www.drf.com/news/sentiment-finally-zenyattas-favor

Excerpt:

The greatest potential injustice, at least in the hearts and minds of a growing number of racing fans, would be that if somehow Zenyatta lost the Breeders’ Cup Classic and, say, Blame, Quality Road, or Lookin’ At Lucky won, she would be deprived once again of racing’s ultimate honor.
---------------------------------------------------

:eek:

[Charlie D]

What is shocking Andy. They actually get paid to write that stuff.

[andymays]

What is shocking Andy. They actually get paid to write that stuff.

Hovdey's usually pretty good. Most people in California have absolutely lost their minds over Zenyatta. They want different rules for her. We might have some real "bridgejumpers" if she loses the Classic.

[andymays]

RICHARD ENG: Celebrated Zenyatta will have to earn Breeders' Cup Classic victory

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/celebrated-zenyatta-will-have-to-earn-breeders--cup-classic-victory-105015304.html

Excerpt:

The scary notion would be if Zenyatta loses to one of the top contenders, such as Blame, Lookin At Lucky or Quality Road. Those three have good enough resumes to wrestle away the title from the queen. That could make Zenyatta the Rodney Dangerfield of American racing as the best horse never to win a Horse of the Year crown.

[PaceAdvantage]

RICHARD ENG: Celebrated Zenyatta will have to earn Breeders' Cup Classic victory

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/celebrated-zenyatta-will-have-to-earn-breeders--cup-classic-victory-105015304.htmlHer connections would only have themselves to blame. It's so obvious to anyone who has been around this sport more than a handful of years.

You don't get HOTY based on a cumulative career. You get it based on what you did in 2010.

Not facing a single Grade 1 winner in 2010 and then losing the BC Classic is not worthy of HOTY.

[Charlie D]

If she is beaten and there are no excuses, does that not suggest she is not the horse people think she is and therefore unworthy of HOTY crown

[GaryG]

Maybe they should give her a Lifetime Achievement Award. She has done zip this year unless she wins the classic. If she does, then I will agree.....she should be HOY.

[PaceAdvantage]

If she is beaten and there are no excuses, does that not suggest she is not the horse people think she is and therefore unworthy of HOY crownTo be brutally honest, there have been other horses in the past who have won the BC Classic and not won HOTY.

Now, we all know that if she wins the BC Classic, she will win HOTY. That isn't in doubt.

BUT, if you honestly look at her campaign this year, even with a win in the BC Classic, she SHOULD only be a contender for HOTY...not a lock...

That's not to say a win in the BC Classic won't answer a lot of questions. It most certainly will. But that is separate and apart from her ACTUAL résumé this year, which is the ONLY thing that should be considered by HOTY voters.

[Charlie D]

Yer, if she beats Lookin, Blame etc you can't oppose her being awarded the Crown, but at the moment the Crown does look to be up for grabs.

[ArlJim78]

Who wins Horse of the Year if Musket Man wins the Classic?
It would be wide open, but Zenyatta would have an even weaker case than last year if you ask me.

[cj]

To be brutally honest, there have been other horses in the past who have won the BC Classic and not won HOTY.

Now, we all know that if she wins the BC Classic, she will win HOTY. That isn't in doubt.

BUT, if you honestly look at her campaign this year, even with a win in the BC Classic, she SHOULD only be a contender for HOTY...not a lock...

That's not to say a win in the BC Classic won't answer a lot of questions. It most certainly will. But that is separate and apart from her ACTUAL résumé this year, which is the ONLY thing that should be considered by HOTY voters.

Lets really be brutally honest. Without a win in the Classic, she doesn't deserve HOY for 2010. What do 2008/2009 have to do with it? I know Shirreffs wishes they counted, but they don't. Maybe he should have actually challenged her this year.

Imagine owning the Yankees and doing nothing but playing International League teams this year. Very similar in my opinion to the handling of Z this year. Sure, they'd win a lot, but it would be very boring and virtually meaningless.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Shirreffs Talks Zenyatta | BloodHorse.com

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59370/shirreffs-talks-zenyatta

Excerpt:

On his disappointment if she would not win Horse of the Year in 2010, even if she loses the BC Classic:

“I would think it would be almost too much. For what she does for the industry for the last three years, I would say that would be a real slap in the face. Not only on performance but what’s she’s done for racing.”


Yes she does deserve HOY..Not only has she won 19 in a row,She has captivated the western seaboard and most of the racing world with her performances on the racetrack.She really is the darling of the racing world and to deny her HOY would only sour our much needed fans.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes she does deserve HOY..Not only has she won 19 in a row,She has captivated the western seaboard and most of the racing world with her performances on the racetrack.She really is the darling of the racing world and to deny her HOY would only sour our much needed fans.HOTY isn't that kind of award. You must be thinking of a different award.

Will they give out a Best Picture Academy Award at the next ceremony for a movie released in 2008?

[andymays]

Yes she does deserve HOY..Not only has she won 19 in a row,She has captivated the western seaboard and most of the racing world with her performances on the racetrack.She really is the darling of the racing world and to deny her HOY would only sour our much needed fans.

So you are advocating altering the criteria for HOY because of her contribution to racing over the last few years?

I think that's what Shirreffs is saying and some others.

I don't agree.

[CryingForTheHorses]

So you are advocating altering the criteria for HOY because of her contribution to racing over the last few years?

I think that's what Shirreffs is saying and some others.

I don't agree.


Please give me the proper criteria for HOTY.

[cj]

Please give me the proper criteria for HOTY.

I'll start...nothing that happened in 2007/8/9 counts.

[bisket]

andy you think mandella will run crown of thorns in the classic to be the bunny for zenyatta? you know he would want a horse that has raced on poly her whole career to win. it would be a feather in his cap.

[5k-claim]

I have supported Team Z throughout the big mare's career. And still do. I think they have done a masterful job with her.

But two things come to my mind here:

(1) As a competitor, I would just be focussed on the BCC and not even talking about HOY- especially about what happens if she gets beat. I would just say that there would be time to sort all of that out after the race I am preparing my mare for. Win or lose.

(2) I am not bothered by a mare running against other fillies and mares. Probably never will be. But even I would say that if you basically put all of your eggs in one basket, then you have to live with what that brings. Namely, depending on who does win the BCC, the HOY might not be hers. I think team Z has to live with that possibility.

[andymays]

Please give me the proper criteria for HOTY.

I don't know that voting for any particular year has ever been based on popularity over three years or how much one particular horse has done to promote racing through fame alone for three years. If it has been done then let me know.

Isn't HOY based on any given horses accomplishments in any given year?

[the little guy]

RICHARD ENG: Celebrated Zenyatta will have to earn Breeders' Cup Classic victory

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/celebrated-zenyatta-will-have-to-earn-breeders--cup-classic-victory-105015304.html

Excerpt:

The scary notion would be if Zenyatta loses to one of the top contenders, such as Blame, Lookin At Lucky or Quality Road. Those three have good enough resumes to wrestle away the title from the queen. That could make Zenyatta the Rodney Dangerfield of American racing as the best horse never to win a Horse of the Year crown.


The list of " best horses never to win Horse of the Year " that were better than Zenyatta is very long.

[Jasonm921]

Who wins Horse of the Year if Musket Man wins the Classic?

If goldikova wins the mile...give it to her. The funny thing is if Life at Ten wins the distaff....any other year she wins the eclipse (older filly) based on what she did this year. She had a harder campaign and faced the tougher fillies.

[andymays]

andy you think mandella will run crown of thorns in the classic to be the bunny for zenyatta? you know he would want a horse that has raced on poly her whole career to win. it would be a feather in his cap.

NO.

[cpitt84]

If goldikova wins the mile...give it to her. .

I agree with this.

[Steve R]

Who wins Horse of the Year if Musket Man wins the Classic?
Since there are really only four candidates - Blame, Lookin At Lucky, Quality Road and Zenyatta - I suppose a lot would depend on how each performed in the Classic. OTOH, if Goldikova wins her third BC Mile and does it in truly devastating style, I could see voting for her even off the one race. An historic effort on her part could convince many that she was the best horse to race in North America in 2010. That her other races were in Europe shouldn't matter. Curlin won his second HOY award thanks to his DWC win. Without that, Zenyatta would have won in 2008 IMO.

[Charlie D]

Isn't HOY based on any given horses accomplishments in any given year?



Blame and Quality Road must be ahead of Zen on that front so far in 2010

[Jasonm921]

Miesque is in the hall of fame off of two American races. goldikova is going in the hall of fame as well. It wouldn't be crazy to give her an eclipse. I think miesque got an eclipse off of one race here, could be wrong but i believe she did. Interesting thing is Rachel, Zen and Goldikova will be on the same ballot in a few years.

[Charlie D]

Goldi should not be in running imho as she is a Euro and she'll get plenty of awards this side of pond anyway.

[johnhannibalsmith]

How can the guy say that she automatically warrants HoY even if she loses the race that the devout in his camp point to as the all-important criteria for such an accolade as recently as every one of the last 300 days?

If she "should have" won in 2009 because of her BC Classic win, then certainly he can't believe that the victor of that race in 2010 shouldn't be considered rather heavily for the 2010 award.

[the little guy]

Miesque is in the hall of fame off of two American races. goldikova is going in the hall of fame as well. It wouldn't be crazy to give her an eclipse. I think miesque got an eclipse off of one race here, could be wrong but i believe she did. Interesting thing is Rachel, Zen and Goldikova will be on the same ballot in a few years.

Proviso has won four Grade 1s, at three different tracks, and even though she is inferior to Goldikova, I think she deserves the year end award for that division regardless of what happens in a few weeks.

The BC is one race.

[Charlie D]

Proviso has won four Grade 1s, at three different tracks, and even though she is inferior to Goldikova, I think she deserves the year end award for that division regardless of what happens in a few weeks.

The BC is one race.


I agree, bin thoughts on giving the Euro invaders a sniff at any awards unless they have run say 2, 3, 4 or more races in States

[Jasonm921]

Proviso has won four Grade 1s, at three different tracks, and even though she is inferior to Goldikova, I think she deserves the year end award for that division regardless of what happens in a few weeks.

The BC is one race.


I understand your point but if she is HOF bound she will be considered very strongly for year end honors...especially from the east coast writers.

[CryingForTheHorses]

I'll start...nothing that happened in 2007/8/9 counts.


OK.I understand what you are saying,Maybe a lifetime achievement award would be better suited for her.

[Dahoss9698]

Hovdey's usually pretty good. Most people in California have absolutely lost their minds over Zenyatta. They want different rules for her. We might have some real "bridgejumpers" if she loses the Classic.

I remember Hovdey being pretty good before Zenyatta came around. Since then he's been downright embarassing. Beyer and Crist get a ton of flack for the stuff they write, but this guy writes ridiculous puff piece after puff piece and no one says a word.

Weird how that works.

[Dahoss9698]

OK.I understand what you are saying,Maybe a lifetime achievement award would be better suited for her.

They have a lifetime achievement award, it's called the hall of fame.

[andymays]

I remember Hovdey being pretty good before Zenyatta came around. Since then he's been downright embarassing. Beyer and Crist get a ton of flack for the stuff they write, but this guy writes ridiculous puff piece after puff piece and no one says a word.

Weird how that works.

Agree.

I've never seen so many people totally hypnotized by Zenyatta. I know there are quite a few people out here who are scared to say how they really feel about her schedule this year. It's really something to see.

That's also why I think she's going to be bet down much more than people think in the Classic. I won't be surprised to see her at 7-5.

Here's another guy I like but he has totally gone off the rails for Zenyatta.

HORSE RACING COLUMN: Girl power ready to rock Louisville - Pasadena Star-News
http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/sports/ci_16344443

Excerpt:

Think Big Brown's bid to become the first Triple Crown winner in 30 years in 2008 was huge?

Well, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Just wait till Zenyatta takes the city of Louisville by storm when she arrives at Churchill Downs on Nov. 2 for her date with destiny.


Read more: http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/sports/ci_16344443#ixzz12TUUl6g7

[cj]

I remember Hovdey being pretty good before Zenyatta came around. Since then he's been downright embarassing. Beyer and Crist get a ton of flack for the stuff they write, but this guy writes ridiculous puff piece after puff piece and no one says a word.

Weird how that works.

I'm surprised his byline isn't Jay Hovdey-Krone. He seems to changed styles since his marriage.

[andymays]

I'm surprised his byline isn't Jay Hovdey-Krone. He seems to changed styles since his marriage.

It's Zenyatta fever.

[cj]

That's also why I think she's going to be bet down much more than people think in the Classic. I won't be surprised to see her at 7-5.



I'm not really sure about that. Sure, there are lots of die hards, but I don't think many of them bet...not actual money at least.

[andymays]

I'm not really sure about that. Sure, there are lots of die hards, but I don't think many of them bet...not actual money at least.

They bet her last year and she is even more famous this year. I was surprised at the 5-2 last year and I remember most experienced players thinking she was overbet at that price. Of course after the race everyone said she was a bargain at that price. LOL

[cj]

They bet her last year and she is even more famous this year. I was surprised at the 5-2 last year and I remember most experienced players thinking she was overbet at that price. Of course after the race everyone said she was a bargain at that price. LOL

Last year she deserved to be the favorite since it was on synthetics. Maybe a little bit of an underlay, but not too far off. If she is 5-2 this year it will be a big underlay.

[BluegrassProf]

Art Wilson is one acorn short of a nutbar.

True story.

[andymays]

Last year she deserved to be the favorite since it was on synthetics. Maybe a little bit of an underlay, but not too far off. If she is 5-2 this year it will be a big underlay.

The amount of articles praising her is crazy. I've never seen anything close to this. Here's a guy that says even money.

http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/editorial/news/article.cgi?id=20011

Excerpt:

She's five-for-five this year, with a half-length decision in the October 2 Lady's Secret S. (G1) most recently, and will be the overwhelming public choice in the Classic. Favored at 5-2 last year, Zenyatta probably will be in the even-money vicinity on November 6. And many winning tickets won't be cashed if she proves successful, with fans and collectors saving win wagers as a memento to her final performance

[bigmack]

Any of you thugs have a link to that mildly psychotic, Z-enthusiast, who was yelling Z....on YTube? A couple of chums are over and want a snicker.

[andymays]

Art Wilson is one acorn short of a nutbar.

True story.

Other than the Zenyatta stuff he's usually sticking up for Horseplayers and he hates synthetic surfaces. That's good enough for me.

[cj]

Any of you thugs have a link to that mildly psychotic, Z-enthusiast, who was yelling Z....on YTube? A couple of chums are over and want a snicker.

Carlonr?

z-A1ps_m7Jk

[Dahoss9698]

Any of you thugs have a link to that mildly psychotic, Z-enthusiast, who was yelling Z....on YTube? A couple of chums are over and want a snicker.

Mildly?

[BluegrassProf]

Other than the Zenyatta stuff he's usually sticking up for Horseplayers and he hates synthetic surfaces. That's good enough for me.It's a hidden pathology, probably controlled by medication. The Zenster's clearly his trigger. :ThmbUp:

[Dahoss9698]

I'm partial to his post Lady's Secret performance.

[andymays]

It's a hidden pathology, probably controlled by medication. The Zenster's clearly his trigger. :ThmbUp:

He's not the only one this year. It's rampant.

[bigmack]

I take back the 'thug' thang. :p

Muito Obrigado :ThmbUp:

[BluegrassProf]

He's not the only one this year. It's rampant.
I know it. From what I've gathered, medical professionals - forced as of late to confront increasingly serious cases - have been referring to it as "Zourette's Syndrome."

Zourette's seems to be marked by the inability to control the gushing and blurting of phrases like, "QUEEN Z!", "BIAS!", and "DETRACTORS!" (despite darn well knowing better, and the unpleasant looks of people passing by). It apparently tends to elicit delusions of grandeur, as well as obsessive compulsive tendencies ranging from selective ignorance and sweeping factual neutralization to various forms of confrontational aggression and neurotic repetition.

It's presumed that cognitive behavioral therapy may alleviate the symptoms of Zourette's, but as a neurological disorder, there's no "cure" per se. Best we can do at this point is to recognize how serious the problem is, and fight the battle through education and understanding.

:ThmbUp:

[Cratos]

Shirreffs says Zenyatta deserves '10 Horse of the Year - Thoroughbred Times

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing-news/2010/october/15/zenyatta-shirreffs-hoty.aspx

Deserves HOY? I am a strong Zenyatta fan, but that statement is preposterous

[Shelby]

What exactly has she done for racing? Lowered handle? Raised Takeout?

I'm confused.

She's gotten people who otherwise couldn't give a crap less about racing, interested, watching, cheering, betting, buying memorabilia, donating to fight cancer etc.

IMO

[Shelby]

Her connections would only have themselves to blame. It's so obvious to anyone who has been around this sport more than a handful of years.

You don't get HOTY based on a cumulative career. You get it based on what you did in 2010.

Not facing a single Grade 1 winner in 2010 and then losing the BC Classic is not worthy of HOTY.They should have a new award----Horse of the Last Six Years;)

[Robert Fischer]

Zenyatta has already won HOY honors. Win or lose the Classic.


it would be almost too much
for what she has done for the industry for the last three years

[the little guy]

She's gotten people who otherwise couldn't give a crap less about racing, interested, watching, cheering, betting, buying memorabilia, donating to fight cancer etc.

IMO

There's a bridge or two you might be interested in buying.

[letswastemoney]

I don't see how anyone in their right minds could like Shirreffs. I despise him more and more every time he speaks

[jamey1977]

I don't see how anyone in their right minds could like Shirreffs. I despise him more and more every time he speaks Why ?

[Pick6]

I'll start...nothing that happened in 2007/8/9 counts.
It would not be the first time that a horse's previous years' record had an affect on current year honors.

[thaskalos]

I don't see how anyone in their right minds could like Shirreffs. I despise him more and more every time he speaksHarsh words...

[Spalding No!]

It would not be the first time that a horse's previous years' record had an affect on current year honors.

Examples?

[Nikki1997]

I don't see how anyone in their right minds could like Shirreffs. I despise him more and more every time he speaks

LOL. Did it not occur to you that some of JS's comments were tongue in cheek? Well, hell no. Funny that many posters on other forums have been laughing at some of the comments he made. Why? Because he knows what people like you are saying. Does he give a crap? He has better things to do than to worry about the garbage you and others write.

When Z won the Classic last year, it was the last race that Bobby Frankel ever watched. He told JS her training to win that race was one of the finest training jobs he'd ever seen. After hearing that, you think John Shirreffs gives a great big damn what you and others on this board or any board who are so critical and negative, think? I think I know what the answer to that one is.

I

[Pick6]

Examples?
Older horse, 1973.

[Charlie D]

LOL. Did it not occur to you that some of JS's comments were tongue in cheek? Well, hell no. Funny that many posters on other forums have been laughing at some of the comments he made. Why? Because he knows what people like you are saying. Does he give a crap? He has better things to do than to worry about the garbage you and others write.

When Z won the Classic last year, it was the last race that Bobby Frankel ever watched. He told JS her training to win that race was one of the finest training jobs he'd ever seen. After hearing that, you think John Shirreffs gives a great big damn what you and others on this board or any board who are so critical and negative, think? I think I know what the answer to that one is.

I




I think you know nothing regarding J Shirreffs comments or thinking , but you like to pretend you do.

[Dahoss9698]

LOL. Did it not occur to you that some of JS's comments were tongue in cheek? Well, hell no. Funny that many posters on other forums have been laughing at some of the comments he made. Why? Because he knows what people like you are saying. Does he give a crap? He has better things to do than to worry about the garbage you and others write.

When Z won the Classic last year, it was the last race that Bobby Frankel ever watched. He told JS her training to win that race was one of the finest training jobs he'd ever seen. After hearing that, you think John Shirreffs gives a great big damn what you and others on this board or any board who are so critical and negative, think? I think I know what the answer to that one is.

I

Ahh, yes. I knew it was coming. You (both) can decipher his comments like others can't. What an amazing talent.

You're the kind of people that Shirreffs targets with his nonsense. The people who aren't smart enough to know better. Like when you knew earlier in the year they would travel after the Apple Blossom. How'd that work out? I think I know the answer to that one.

[Spalding No!]

Older horse, 1973.

Let me dust off the cobwebs...

Who should have won it? Key To The Mint? True Knight? Prove Out? Tentam?

In the end, they all took turns beating each other, but nobody won more big stakes routing on the dirt that year than Riva Ridge (a whopping 3).

[Nikki1997]

Ahh, yes. I knew it was coming. You (both) can decipher his comments like others can't. What an amazing talent.

You're the kind of people that Shirreffs targets with his nonsense. The people who aren't smart enough to know better. Like when you knew earlier in the year they would travel after the Apple Blossom. How'd that work out? I think I know the answer to that one.


Ahhh, yes. I knew you'd be right behind my post. You're like Ex Lax. So predictable.

The talent belongs to you, DaHoss. You seem to be able to read everyone's minds, especially those who don't agree with you. You seem to be able to cure the ills of those who "don't see the light" as defined by you.

Personally, I find you pompous and more full of hot gas than the Goodyear Blimp.

We don't agree. We will never agree on anything. I find you boring beyond description and that's about the limit of my being civil that I will go with you. You are like a recurring nasty rash that won't go away. Your opinion is of no consequence to me, because you have nothing to offer in the way of knowledge. Unless it's numbers. It isn't about horses for you. Unless you can keep putting a quarter in one to keep it going. That's about your speed.

[Steve R]

Older horse, 1973.
If not Riva Ridge, then who? 9-5-2-0, 4 TRs, 1 WR, 2nd to 3yo Secretariat in the Marlboro Cup easily outperforming one of the best collections of older horses ever seen in one race in North America, ran 6f in 1:08.4, 9f in 1:46.1, 9 1/2f in 1:52.2. He never handled an off track so his Met loss to Tentam is understandable. I don't recall what happened in his final start in the JCGC other than he backed out with 6f to go, although I expect 2 miles was beyond his ability. If your preference was Prove out, despite his wins over Secretariat and Riva Ridge his record that year was 15-4-2-0. I can't think of any others with a legitimate claim.

[Pick6]

Let me dust off the cobwebs...

Who should have won it? Key To The Mint? True Knight? Prove Out? Tentam?

In the end, they all took turns beating each other, but nobody won more big stakes routing on the dirt that year than Riva Ridge (a whopping 3).
I think you're stretching the "more big stakes" argument.

Who won the 2 most important older horse stakes of the year, defeating the greatest horse of all time, at the distance he was most famous for, and defeating the "older horse of the year" by 37 lengths?

It was a makeup for the mistake of 1972 3YO award.

[Pick6]

If not Riva Ridge, then who? 9-5-2-0, 4 TRs, 1 WR, 2nd to 3yo Secretariat in the Marlboro Cup easily outperforming one of the best collections of older horses ever seen in one race in North America, ran 6f in 1:08.4, 9f in 1:46.1, 9 1/2f in 1:52.2. He never handled an off track so his Met loss to Tentam is understandable. I don't recall what happened in his final start in the JCGC other than he backed out with 6f to go, although I expect 2 miles was beyond his ability. If your preference was Prove out, despite his wins over Secretariat and Riva Ridge his record that year was 15-4-2-0. I can't think of any others with a legitimate claim.
Prove Out also set track records, beat the greatest ever, and embarrassed Riva Ridge when 2 miles was a measure of greatness (see: Kelso, Forego).

It is not quantity, it is quality. Riva Ridge did not beat anything close to the competition Prove Out dominated in the biggest older horse stakes of the year.

[Dahoss9698]

Ahhh, yes. I knew you'd be right behind my post. You're like Ex Lax. So predictable.

The talent belongs to you, DaHoss. You seem to be able to read everyone's minds, especially those who don't agree with you. You seem to be able to cure the ills of those who "don't see the light" as defined by you.

Personally, I find you pompous and more full of hot gas than the Goodyear Blimp.

We don't agree. We will never agree on anything. I find you boring beyond description and that's about the limit of my being civil that I will go with you. You are like a recurring nasty rash that won't go away. Your opinion is of no consequence to me, because you have nothing to offer in the way of knowledge. Unless it's numbers. It isn't about horses for you. Unless you can keep putting a quarter in one to keep it going. That's about your speed.

You sure waste a lot of time with me considering you find my opinion of no consequence. Here and on the other board.

Personally, I find you to be clinging to a game that passed you by decades ago. So save your mind reading s.hit to the other ex stall muckers that care.

I offer up more in a post full of emoticons than you (both) ever will and that bothers you. Just admit it and let's move on. Unless of course you have more "knowledge" to offer up like this gem from earlier in the year.

Maybe it would be prudent to wait till the year is over before complaining about Zenyatta's campaign .

The Mosses are committed to the BCC and are well aware that repeating last year's schedule will not cut it .

Can you at least wait and see where she goes next ???

Last year the Mosses said they would do something different, and they did, but only once .

Not enough.



What a difference a few months makes.

[Pick6]

Maybe it would be prudent to wait till the year is over before complaining about Zenyatta's campaign .

The Mosses are committed to the BCC and are well aware that repeating last year's schedule will not cut it .

Can you at least wait and see where she goes next ???

Last year the Mosses said they would do something different, and they did, but only once .

Not enough.
Shirreffs' biggest mistake turned out to be entering Zardana in the NO Ladies.

[Nikki1997]

You sure waste a lot of time with me considering you find my opinion of no consequence. Here and on the other board.

Personally, I find you to be clinging to a game that passed you by decades ago. So save your mind reading s.hit to the other ex stall muckers that care.

I offer up more in a post full of emoticons than you (both) ever will and that bothers you. Just admit it and let's move on. Unless of course you have more "knowledge" to offer up like this gem from earlier in the year.



What a difference a few months makes.



"A game that has passed me by?" What the hell is this? Gosh, thanks for the laugh!

My sister, Mikki made the post you highlighted. I didn't.

My original post stands. You're a condescending, patronizing windbag who does not have the capability of accepting a dissenting opinion. Your problem, not mine.

[Dahoss9698]

"A game that has passed me by?" What the hell is this? Gosh, thanks for the laugh!

My sister, Mikki made the post you highlighted. I didn't.

My original post stands. You're a condescending, patronizing windbag who does not have the capability of accepting a dissenting opinion. Your problem, not mine.

How convenient. Blame it on your alter ego.

My post stands as well. You're a bitter old know it all that can't stand there are people that are much more knowledgeable in every facet of the game than you (both) are. The extent of your contributions here are mind reading and telling people about how you "get it" and they don't. Awesome.

You can't take that not everyone feels the same about Zenyatta as you (both) do. Your (both of you) problem, not mine.

[Spalding No!]

I think you're stretching the "more big stakes" argument.

Who won the 2 most important older horse stakes of the year, defeating the greatest horse of all time, at the distance he was most famous for, and defeating the "older horse of the year" by 37 lengths?

It was a makeup for the mistake of 1972 3YO award.

Did you vote for River Keen in '99?

[Nikki1997]

How convenient. Blame it on your alter ego.

My post stands as well. You're a bitter old know it all that can't stand there are people that are much more knowledgeable in every facet of the game than you (both) are. The extent of your contributions here are mind reading and telling people about how you "get it" and they don't. Awesome.

You can't take that not everyone feels the same about Zenyatta as you (both) do. Your (both of you) problem, not mine.

Here's a newsflash for ya, Buckwheat. I don't care what you think of the mare. I do "get it'.

Read your own post. The things you are accusing me of, you are doing yourself. Outright drivel and grasping at straws, maybe?

[Dahoss9698]

Here's a newsflash for ya, Buckwheat. I don't care what you think of the mare. I do "get it'.

Read your own post. The things you are accusing me of, you are doing yourself. Outright drivel and grasping at straws, maybe?

The bath comment from a few months ago stung, huh?

[Pick6]

Did you vote for River Keen in '99?
No, I don't have a vote.

Did he beat the greatest ever? Did he set multiple track records? Did he run the 2nd greatest 1 1/2 miles on dirt ever? I must have missed that.

[Nikki1997]

The bath comment from a few months ago stung, huh?

LOL. You have as much "sting" as a bee whose had it's wings plucked and lost it's stinger. Try again.

[Dahoss9698]

LOL. You have as much "sting" as a bee whose had it's wings plucked. Try again.

As I've told you many times before....comedy REALLY isn't your thing. Try again.

[Nikki1997]

As I've told you many times before....comedy REALLY isn't your thing. Try again.

Awwww, one has to have a sense of humor to understand comedy. I'm sorry you don't have this. Want to reach into your bag of tired and lame excuses and see if you can come up with something better than this? I'll give you another chance.

[Dahoss9698]

Awwww, one has to have a sense of humor to understand comedy. I'm sorry you don't have this. Want to reach into your bag of tired and lame excuses and see if you can come up with something better than this? I'll give you another chance.

You're right. You're hilarious (unintentionally). I'll defer the last word to you, since any farther and the thread probably gets closed. I don't want that to happen. It's too much fun talking about how delusional Team Zenyatta is.

[thaskalos]

Why do I get the feeling that you 2 really like one another?

[Nikki1997]

The bath comment from a few months ago stung, huh?

Wrong person Einstein-'twas I MIKKI that received your brilliant bath and lack of wit comments .

You haven't even handicapped your way to seeing we are two people, not alter egos .

And it didn't sting at all . Why would it ???

If everything either of us said was of no consequence to you, it is a source of interest that you chime in without fail to scoff at our opinions .

The mark of a person that has no use for anyone's opinion but his own .

Speaking personally, I have no bitterness about anything, including the toxic waste you pitch at me and my sister.

Hadn't you better be spending more time dazzling all with your infinite knowledge than blatting off about what everyone else allegedly knows nothing about ?

I thought so.

MIKKI

[thaskalos]

Make that you three...

[Nikki1997]

You're right. You're hilarious (unintentionally). I'll defer the last word to you, since any farther and the thread probably gets closed. I don't want that to happen. It's too much fun talking about how delusional Team Zenyatta is.

It's also fun to know that while you enjoy talking about how delusional Team Z is, this is the only tired point, which has zero merit, that you can cling to. However, if you find some reason to maintain this, happy trails to you. Some people are easily amused. Ooops, I guess I'm talking about you.

[Dahoss9698]

I guess I got told. My brothers Mahoss and Nahoss will be back shortly to avenge this.

[keithw84]

I stopped reading a while ago and came back... Is this the thread where someone brought up that Goldikova had a chance to win year-end honors despite racing primarily overseas? Isn't this pretty comparable to what All Along did in her HOTY year?

[Dahoss9698]

Why do I get the feeling that you 2 really like one another?

It's the Zenyatta fan in you clouding your judgement.

[Nikki1997]

Make that you three...

Two out of three is correct .


MIKKI

[thaskalos]

It's the Zenyatta fan in you clouding your judgement.Pitty...you 3 would make a wonderful couple...:)

[Nikki1997]

It's the Zenyatta fan in you clouding your judgement.

No, it's not. You're the one with a problem. No one else has one.

[Pick6]

I stopped reading a while ago and came back... Is this the thread where someone brought up that Goldikova had a chance to win year-end honors despite racing primarily overseas? Isn't this pretty comparable to what All Along did in her HOTY year?
All Along won 3 major turf races in North America after winning the Arc. Probably ranks as one of the greatest sequence of performances ever by a turf horse, much less a F/M.

[Jasonm921]

I stopped reading a while ago and came back... Is this the thread where someone brought up that Goldikova had a chance to win year-end honors despite racing primarily overseas? Isn't this pretty comparable to what All Along did in her HOTY year?


I brought it up....All Along ran in Canada, Belmont and Laurel but Miesque in 87 and 88 made only one stop a year for the BC and won honors both years.

[Nikki1997]

Pitty...you 3 would make a wonderful couple...:)

Thank you for the thought, but let's let that idea die right here. Thank you.

[Dahoss9698]

Pitty...you 3 would make a wonderful couple...:)

Dahoss really got under their skin, huh? That's my bro.

-MAHOSS

[Pick6]

I brought it up....All Along ran in Canada, Belmont and Laurel but Miesque in 87 and 88 made only one stop a year for the BC and won honors both years.
Pebbles in '85 winning BC turf did this as well.

[Jasonm921]

Pebbles in '85 winning BC turf did this as well.

You're right.

[Dahoss9698]

The difference is Pebbles and Miesque won Female turf honors, not Horse of the Year. There have been a few others to come over and only win once and get divisional honors. But not HOY.

[Jasonm921]

True...but the one thing that has to be considered is that there has been an increasing appreciation of Goldikova's accomplishments in the past few months. I have seen more and more articles about her from the American side that we normally don't see regarding European horses. These writers may represent a portion of the voting block for the Eclipse awards. Alot has to happen for this scenario to play out...but this started when someone brought up a situation in which the big 4 are off the board.

[Jasonm921]

Also I wonder how much influence the Breeder's Cup (the entity) has in this. If Zenyatta was to lose, I think they would love to have Goldikova be Horse of the Year. It would validate their product even more as a "true World Championship".

[Dahoss9698]

True...but the one thing that has to be considered is that there has been an increasing appreciation of Goldikova's accomplishments in the past few months. I have seen more and more articles about her from the American side that we normally don't see regarding European horses. These writers may represent a portion of the voting block for the Eclipse awards. Alot has to happen for this scenario to play out...but this started when someone brought up a situation in which the big 4 are off the board.

I understand where you are going with this. But she doesn't deserve HOY, even if she wins the Mile by the length of the stretch. She's a great horse and it's a pleasure to watch her. But as TLG pointed out, she probably doesn't even deserve divisional honors, even with a victory in the mile.

[Jasonm921]

One other thing...If Zenyatta is to lose the BC Classic horribly and Life at Ten is a runaway winner of the Distaff...I'm sorry but we live by our decisions...I would have no problem giving Life at Ten the filly and mare award. I know people may think other wise but think about it.

[Jasonm921]

I understand where you are going with this. But she doesn't deserve HOY, even if she wins the Mile by the length of the stretch. She's a great horse and it's a pleasure to watch her. But as TLG pointed out, she probably doesn't even deserve divisional honors, even with a victory in the mile.

It will be interesting to see what would happen...It would give this board something to talk about from Nov-Jan.

[Dahoss9698]

One other thing...If Zenyatta is to lose the BC Classic horribly and Life at Ten is a runaway winner of the Distaff...I'm sorry but we live by our decisions...I would have no problem giving Life at Ten the filly and mare award. I know people may think other wise but think about it.

I totally agree with this.

[Pick6]

One other thing...If Zenyatta is to lose the BC Classic horribly and Life at Ten is a runaway winner of the Distaff...I'm sorry but we live by our decisions...I would have no problem giving Life at Ten the filly and mare award. I know people may think other wise but think about it.
If this forum allowed prop bets I'd be willing to bet 6 figures even money on that (assuming we had a reasonable escrow, of course).

[Dahoss9698]

Why settle for 6 figures? Make it a bajillion dollars.

[Jasonm921]

I have a feeling this will be its own thread in about 3 weeks and 17 hours. :eek:

[Pick6]

Why settle for 6 figures? Make it a bajillion dollars.
6 figures is enough. Remember proper staking.

[Headbanger]

You sure waste a lot of time with me considering you find my opinion of no consequence. Here and on the other board.

Personally, I find you to be clinging to a game that passed you by decades ago. So save your mind reading s.hit to the other ex stall muckers that care.

I offer up more in a post full of emoticons than you (both) ever will and that bothers you. Just admit it and let's move on. Unless of course you have more "knowledge" to offer up like this gem from earlier in the year.



What a difference a few months makes.

When these 2 get over themselves, maybe they can catch a dose of reality, that the Sherriffs and Moss lied and babied Zenyatta for the sole purpose of keeping her record perfect. As has been mentioned before, some horses gain more for what they do in defeat for what they do in victory. Azeri was one of those horses, Winning Colors, Congaree, and the list can go on and on. Unfortunately seems like Team Zenyatta's egos got inflated with each win and team carlonr was seen in the crowd chanting ZEN-YAT-TA over and over again.

[FenceBored]

If this forum allowed prop bets I'd be willing to bet 6 figures even money on that (assuming we had a reasonable escrow, of course).

A penny, a nickel, a dime, a quarter, a half-dollar, and a dollar coin. Six figures totaling $1.91.

[exactatom]

I just read Sheriff's comments in regarding HOY. I beleive he is flawed on a few counts:

1. The award is for THIS year, not accomplishments over the last few years. 2. A champion travels and seeks out the best competition. While what Rachel did last year was well beyond normal, look at previous HOY winners and look how far they travelled. I respect Padio Prado's body of work over various surfaces in various locations against a variety of top level competition than I do Zenyatta staying in California and barely winning two races against lower ranked company.
3. Why is it that Sheriffs can travel with other horses he trains, like sadddling an entrant in today's Queen Eliz II at Keeneland, but never (with the exception of 2 trips to Oaklawn and a phantom scratch on Oaks card last year) travel Zenyatta?
4. The Breeder's Cup was designed to crown champions. If a horse competes in and cannot win the classic on racing's largest stage, why should he/she be HOY?

I have this mysterious feeling that as BC week evolves, Sheirffs will once again take the easy way out and run in the Ladies Classic rather than the Classic.

Why do we (and I blame the media mostly) place more emphasis on the undefeated record instead of the body of work including quality of competition?

[Spalding No!]

Why do we (and I blame the media mostly) place more emphasis on the undefeated record instead of the body of work including quality of competition?

It's the audience (ie the non-core racing fan) that's enthralled with the undefeated record. People are drawn to the idea of perfection. They don't care about horse racing (or Zenyatta for that matter) beyond her win streak. Of course perfection is almost always an illusion, and as soon as reality shatters the pretty picture they'll go back to ignoring the sport.

Zenyatta is no more important than a moldy water stain in the shape of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on the wall next to a urinal in the men's bathroom at a NJ Turnpike Service Area.

[thaskalos]

It's the audience (ie the non-core racing fan) that's enthralled with the undefeated record. People are drawn to the idea of perfection. They don't care about horse racing (or Zenyatta for that matter) beyond her win streak. Of course perfection is almost always an illusion, and as soon as reality shatters the pretty picture they'll go back to ignoring the sport.

Zenyatta is no more important than a moldy water stain in the shape of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on the wall next to a urinal in the men's bathroom at a NJ Turnpike Service Area.It is the racing industry's latest attempt to bring some positive attention to a sport that has been surrounded by negativity and pessimism for far too long.

The rarety of the rather long undefeated career, coupled with the fact that she is a mare, make her the ultimate promotional tool for a game that is starving for some main-stream media exposure.

After she retires - whether she wins the Classic or not - only the serious fans will remember her.

While I don't care much for the overblown promotional stunts (billboards, websites, etc...) I really can't blame them for the media hype.

There isn't much to feel good about in this game anymore...

[Tom]

Zenyatta is no more important than a moldy water stain in the shape of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on the wall next to a urinal in the men's bathroom at a NJ Turnpike Service Area.

Wow. I guess she is far more important to the game than sick people like YOU. So is the urinal.:ThmbDown:

[thaskalos]

Zenyatta is no more important than a moldy water stain in the shape of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on the wall next to a urinal in the men's bathroom at a NJ Turnpike Service Area.Just a typical, unbiased, objective opinion about Zenyatta I guess...

[Dahoss9698]

Girl Power!

[bigmack]

Zenyatta is no more important than a moldy water stain in the shape of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on the wall next to a urinal in the men's bathroom at a NJ Turnpike Service Area.
Ciao
http://gooong.com/

[DeanT]

I have this mysterious feeling that as BC week evolves, Sheirffs will once again take the easy way out and run in the Ladies Classic rather than the Classic.


He told the BH in his 45 min interview that there is no cross entering. We'll see if he changes his tune, but at this point that aint happening.

It would certainly be the easy way out for HOY if he did opt for the Distaff. It would carbon copy Azeri's year where she had six grade ones with a Distaff win to culminate her HOY award.

We hear quite a bit about him being a ducker, so why he would even opt for the Classic at this point makes me wonder if he is one, or it is another in the long line of misplaced logic criticisms of the horse.

[the little guy]

He told the BH in his 45 min interview that there is no cross entering. We'll see if he changes his tune, but at this point that aint happening.

It would certainly be the easy way out for HOY if he did opt for the Distaff. It would carbon copy Azeri's year where she had six grade ones with a Distaff win to culminate her HOY award.

We hear quite a bit about him being a ducker, so why he would even opt for the Classic at this point makes me wonder if he is one, or it is another in the long line of misplaced logic criticisms of the horse.


So, Dean, you think she should be Horse of the Year if she runs in, and wins, the Distaff? What if Life at Ten finishes ahead of her....are you ready to concede, then, that Life at Ten should be Older Filly or Mare of the Year?

As for your comments about ducking....that's been decided. She has ducked competition for at least 2010 ( the only year that matters for any Eclipse voting ). This is fact. Because she is running in the BC Classic doesn't change that.

[DeanT]

So, Dean, you think she should be Horse of the Year if she runs in, and wins, the Distaff? What if Life at Ten finishes ahead of her....are you ready to concede, then, that Life at Ten should be Older Filly or Mare of the Year?

As for your comments about ducking....that's been decided. She has ducked competition for at least 2010 ( the only year that matters for any Eclipse voting ). This is fact. Because she is running in the BC Classic doesn't change that.

I don't know where you got this question from anything I typed.

The easiest path for Z for HOY is the Distaff. She is going to the Classic, therefore (logically):

a) Sherriff's does not care about HOY
or
b) he is not a ducker

Take your pick, but neither of the two only logical decisions are accepted as reality by some on the Z bashing threads.

Chickenhead on the last thread took everyone to school on illogic in this debate, so I won't even go there on the broader picture.

[the little guy]

I don't know where you got this question from anything I typed.

The easiest path for Z for HOY is the Distaff. She is going to the Classic, therefore (logically):

a) Sherriff's does not care about HOY
or
b) he is not a ducker

Take your pick, but neither of the two only logical decisions are accepted as reality by some on the Z bashing threads.

Chickenhead on the last thread took everyone to school on illogic in this debate, so I won't even go there on the broader picture.


Dean, stopping spinning, you'll get dizzy.

Shirreffs made it clear yesterday how much he cares about HOY. Stop trying to pretend others are making these things up.

I'm still curious as to your answers. Feel free to check with the usual sources before answering.

[DeanT]

Dean, stopping spinning, you'll get dizzy.

Shirreffs made it clear yesterday how much he cares about HOY. Stop trying to pretend others are making these things up.

I'm still curious as to your answers. Feel free to check with the usual sources before answering.

Stop being a troll.

Life at Ten winning or losing has nothing to do with my post, nor should it. A Distaff win would give her what, three grade ones? She is a mediocre horse and if anyone votes for her over Zenyatta for mare of the year based on one result, they need their head read.

[chickenhead]

Stop being a troll.

Life at Ten winning or losing has nothing to do with my post, nor should it. A Distaff win would give her what, three grade ones? She is a mediocre horse and if anyone votes for her over Zenyatta for mare of the year based on one result, they need their head read.

I think she'd get votes if she beat Zenyatta. I don't think she'd win, but she'd get plenty of votes.

[DeanT]

I think she'd get votes if she beat Zenyatta. I don't think she'd win, but she'd get plenty of votes.

Of course she would - she won a grade 1 in New York against that bearcat Persistently.

[Dahoss9698]

Of course she would - she won a grade 1 in New York against that bearcat Persistently.

Who in your opinion has faced better horses this year, Life At Ten or Zenyatta?

[tucker6]

Stop being a troll.

Life at Ten winning or losing has nothing to do with my post, nor should it. A Distaff win would give her what, three grade ones? She is a mediocre horse and if anyone votes for her over Zenyatta for mare of the year based on one result, they need their head read.Can you tell me off the 2010 results that Zenyatta is anything but mediocre?? Facing mediocre doesn't prove you are any different. I'd like to see how you prove Z is so obviously better than LAT based on 2010 results that you dismiss her so easily.

[Jasonm921]

Life at Ten hands down.

[letswastemoney]

Of course she would - she won a grade 1 in New York against that bearcat Persistently.
Better than beating a filly who can't even win an optional claimer at Presque Isle Downs.

[the little guy]

Stop being a troll.

Life at Ten winning or losing has nothing to do with my post, nor should it. A Distaff win would give her what, three grade ones? She is a mediocre horse and if anyone votes for her over Zenyatta for mare of the year based on one result, they need their head read.


I just want to be clear....you think Zenyatta should be HOY for 2010 if she wins the Distaff.....but anyone that thinks Life at Ten deserves F&M of the Year in 2010, if she defeats Zenyatta to go along with her victories in the Grade 1 Phipps, Grade 1 Beldame, as well as the Grade 2 Delaware Handicap and Grade 3 Sixty Sails, needs mental help? According to you, Zenyatta's record this year would be better than a horse that won the Preakness, Haskell, and BC Classic...or Donn, Met Mile, Woodward, and BC Classic ( along with a close second in the Whitney )....or Foster, Whitney, and BC Classic ( plus a second in the Jockey Club Gold Cup ).

Let me know which part I misunderstood....else I am calling a doctor.

[DeanT]

Can you tell me off the 2010 results that Zenyatta is anything but mediocre?? Facing mediocre doesn't prove you are any different. I'd like to see how you prove Z is so obviously better than LAT based on 2010 results that you dismiss her so easily.

Because handicapping is more than looking at a 95 Beyer in the Apple Blossom versus a 100 in the Beldame.

Zenyatta will be chalk in the Breeders Cup Classic on dirt against the best horses in the world. Professional players will take hundreds of thousands on betfair if the horse is offered at 5-1, and go long.

Life at Ten does not breathe the same air as her and never has no matter what beyer she ran last month. A beyer figure is about as useful in figuring out that statement as using a canoe to tune a guitar. If LAT was in the classic, the only bet a bookmaker could find a market on with her is an over under (set at about 15 lengths) on how much she will get beat by.

[tucker6]

I just want to be clear....you think Zenyatta should be HOY for 2010 if she wins the Distaff.....but anyone that thinks Life at Ten deserves F&M of the Year in 2010, if she defeats Zenyatta to go along with her victories in the Grade 1 Phipps, Grade 1 Beldame, as well as the Grade 2 Delaware Handicap and Grade 3 Sixty Sails, needs mental help? According to you, Zenyatta's record this year would be better than a horse that won the Preakness, Haskell, and BC Classic...or Donn, Met Mile, Woodward, and BC Classic ( along with a close second in the Whitney )....or Foster, Whitney, and BC Classic ( plus a second in the Jockey Club Gold Cup ).

Let me know which part I misunderstood....else I am calling a doctor.
even money that you don't get a response.

[tucker6]

Because handicapping is more than looking at a 95 Beyer in the Apple Blossom versus a 100 in the Beldame.

Zenyatta will be chalk in the Breeders Cup Classic on dirt against the best horses in the world. Professional players will take hundreds of thousands on betfair if the horse is offered at 5-1, and go long.

Life at Ten does not breathe the same air as her and never has no matter what beyer she ran last month. A beyer figure is about as useful in figuring out that statement as using a canoe to tune a guitar. If LAT was in the classic, the only bet a bookmaker could find a market on with her is an over under (set at about 15 lengths) on how much she will get beat by.
When you get around to it, how about answering my question. What has Zenyatta done in 2010 that makes LAT insignificant by comparison. I'll wait ...

[DeanT]

I just want to be clear....you think Zenyatta should be HOY for 2010 if she wins the Distaff.....but anyone that thinks Life at Ten deserves F&M of the Year in 2010, if she defeats Zenyatta to go along with her victories in the Grade 1 Phipps, Grade 1 Beldame, as well as the Grade 2 Delaware Handicap and Grade 3 Sixty Sails, needs mental help? According to you, Zenyatta's record this year would be better than a horse that won the Preakness, Haskell, and BC Classic...or Donn, Met Mile, Woodward, and BC Classic ( along with a close second in the Whitney )....or Foster, Whitney, and BC Classic ( plus a second in the Jockey Club Gold Cup ).

Let me know which part I misunderstood....else I am calling a doctor.

An undefeated year with all grade 1 wins, including a BC Distaff win would be enough for her to win HOY this year just like virtually the exact same schedule was when Azeri won in 2002.

That is what I said four posts ago. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

If you do not think Azeri deserved to win, then we have an honest disagreement. I happen to think she deserved it, and by precedent so would Zenyatta.

[DeanT]

When you get around to it, how about answering my question. What has Zenyatta done in 2010 that makes LAT insignificant by comparison. I'll wait ...

My post was clear. It is about judging horseflesh, which we hope people who vote have a clue about. If you can not understand it, dont shoot the messenger.

[tucker6]

An undefeated year with all grade 1 wins, including a BC Distaff win would be enough for her to win HOY this year just like virtually the exact same schedule was when Azeri won in 2002.

That is what I said four posts ago. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

If you do not think Azeri deserved to win, then we have an honest disagreement. I happen to think she deserved it, and by precedent so would Zenyatta.
Do you believe Azeri in 2002 faced simlar quality of competition as Z in 2010?? More?? Less??

[the little guy]

Because handicapping is more than looking at a 95 Beyer in the Apple Blossom versus a 100 in the Beldame.

Zenyatta will be chalk in the Breeders Cup Classic on dirt against the best horses in the world. Professional players will take hundreds of thousands on betfair if the horse is offered at 5-1, and go long.

Life at Ten does not breathe the same air as her and never has no matter what beyer she ran last month. A beyer figure is about as useful in figuring out that statement as using a canoe to tune a guitar. If LAT was in the classic, the only bet a bookmaker could find a market on with her is an over under (set at about 15 lengths) on how much she will get beat by.

Everyone knows the first paragraph is true and nobody here has suggested otherwise.

On the second paragraph, that is not because those players think 5:1 is necessarily a " fair " price on her, in regards to her actual chances of winning, but because they could hedge that bet somewhere else and guarantee a profit.

And, finally, on your last paragraph.....based only on their 2010 resumes, you know....the ones the voting being discussed rely on, a completely unbiased person, who has never heard of either Zenyatta or Life at Ten, but looked at both of their years, assuming a victory by Life at Ten over Zenyatta in the Ladies Classic ( God I hate that name ), would clearly vote for Life at Ten.

Frankly, Dean, nothing you have said here has done anything other than to confirm your position as a completely biased fan of Zenyatta. Hey, that's cool, we all love our favorites, but please don't pretend otherwise.

[tucker6]

My post was clear. It is about judging horseflesh, which we hope people who vote have a clue about. If you can not understand it, dont shoot the messenger.Your post was in the best manner of Sherriffs and Moss. Ducking all the way. Humor me and answer the question, which you did not answer. I don't want your interpretation of Beyer. I want your interpretation of Dean.

[the little guy]

An undefeated year with all grade 1 wins, including a BC Distaff win would be enough for her to win HOY this year just like virtually the exact same schedule was when Azeri won in 2002.

That is what I said four posts ago. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

If you do not think Azeri deserved to win, then we have an honest disagreement. I happen to think she deserved it, and by precedent so would Zenyatta.


As usual, none of my questions were answered....but since you aren't interested in ANY discussions that involve truth....let me help....

Azeri won the HOY vote in 2002 because there was not a deserving candidate elsewhere. This would not be the case under the three scenerios I laid out for Lookin at Lucky, Quality Road, and Blame. To continually ignore this doesn't exactly strengthen your case.

[DeanT]

Frankly, Dean, nothing you have said here has done anything other than to confirm your position as a completely biased fan of Zenyatta. Hey, that's cool, we all love our favorites, but please don't pretend otherwise.
Thanks for setting me straight.

Coming from a completely unwashed, unbiased forum member like yourself, it is something I will take with the utmost respect.

[tucker6]

Thanks for setting me straight.

Coming from a completely unwashed, unbiased forum member like yourself, it is something I will take with the utmost respect.Good to see you taking the high road after getting obliterated by TLG. :rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

Wow, this thread really exploded.

I love how people like Nikki/Mikki read into things that aren't there...like if we have a problem with something Shirriffs might have said, that automatically means we think he sucks as a trainer... :lol:

Some of you need lots of help.

And the moderators here (myself included) need to do something to prevent these kinds of things from happening in the future. A couple of well placed closed threads and a boot or two are probably warranted both in this thread and elsewhere.

[RXB]

Ladies Classic ( God I hate that name )

This is the truest point made in this thread so far.

Personally, I want to change the name of the race to the Cat Fight. Anything but Ladies' Classic. Petition to be posted on the board shortly.

[DeanT]

Good to see you taking the high road after getting obliterated by TLG. :rolleyes:

Geez, the dude who three months ago could not even agree that Zenyatta was "popular" with the masses is against me. Go figure :D

[Dahoss9698]

If you notice my question was ignored also.

[the little guy]

Geez, the dude who three months ago could not even agree that Zenyatta was "popular" with the masses is against me. Go figure :D


Wow.

[DeanT]

Wow.

Not you Andy. It was another discussion that was not involving you.

BTW, I have never been a "fan" the way you put it. I just gained respect for her and reevaluated her lines, and what she did. You don't see her name with mine on this poll.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=499

I sat at last year's BC. I took too much to mention in pick 4's leaving her off every ticket. I split with a pro player who does quite well at the game, and is not wanting for handicapping money. He lost about 23 large when she won. All he could say is "guess I was wrong. I did not think she could go that fast". When we realized that together at the same time it was a bit of a eureka moment and she was looked at in a different light. It does not mean it is right or wrong and if someone else does not see it that way, that is what handicapping is for.

We'll see what happens next month. All I know is that I am not leaving her off the sweep tickets this year.

[cj]

An undefeated year with all grade 1 wins, including a BC Distaff win would be enough for her to win HOY this year just like virtually the exact same schedule was when Azeri won in 2002.

That is what I said four posts ago. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

If you do not think Azeri deserved to win, then we have an honest disagreement. I happen to think she deserved it, and by precedent so would Zenyatta.

Actually, a big reason Azeri won is because Volponi won the Classic. If one of the big colts won the Classic and Z the Distaff, she would not be HOY again in my opinion.

[Spalding No!]

The rarety of the rather long undefeated career, coupled with the fact that she is a mare, make her the ultimate promotional tool for a game that is starving for some main-stream media exposure.

Forget about "promotion" and "media exposure". Simply put, racing needs to improve its top class races to gain new fans and maintain old ones. This has to be achieved via the horsemen (ie keep good horses in training, run good horses against one another), not the media and marketing schemes.

Ironically enough, with the above in mind, Zenyatta's campaigns the last 2 years have been the complete antithesis of what this sport needs to renew interest.

[cj]

Ironically enough, with the above in mind, Zenyatta's campaigns the last 2 years have been the complete antithesis of what this sport needs to renew interest.

And that, in a nutshell, explains my disdain for the connections.

[Spalding No!]

Just a typical, unbiased, objective opinion about Zenyatta I guess...

That's funny, cuz in your first response to my post you agreed with me:

"...only serious race fans will remember her."

Play on.

[tucker6]

Forget about "promotion" and "media exposure". Simply put, racing needs to improve its top class races to gain new fans and maintain old ones. This has to be achieved via the horsemen (ie keep good horses in training, run good horses against one another), not the media and marketing schemes.

Ironically enough, with the above in mind, Zenyatta's campaigns the last 2 years have been the complete antithesis of what this sport needs to renew interest.Agree completely. Unfortunately, I don't know if it would have helped anyway. Zenyatta will be a pimple on the sports world's ass memory-wise in five years. The over/under on non-racing fans that will know who she is in 2015 is 1%. If she had raced more provocatively, it might be 2-3%. The only horse that commands any part of the consciousness of the sports world is Secretariat. No other horse, even Affirmed, Seattle Slew, The Bid, etc, probably gets 5% recognition from the general public. Remember, this is the same public that can't find the USA on a map.

I wish you were right, but I'm pessimistic.

[thaskalos]

Forget about "promotion" and "media exposure". Simply put, racing needs to improve its top class races to gain new fans and maintain old ones. This has to be achieved via the horsemen (ie keep good horses in training, run good horses against one another), not the media and marketing schemes.

Ironically enough, with the above in mind, Zenyatta's campaigns the last 2 years have been the complete antithesis of what this sport needs to renew interest.I have trouble evaluating this reply...is this a fact, or only an opinion which would then be open to debate?

[Spalding No!]

I have trouble evaluating this message...is this a fact, or only an opinion which would then be open to debate?

Since we're talking about the future, I guess it all depends on the conviction of the speaker.

I will tell you that no horses were ridden by me personally to substantiate any of the statements I made in that post.

Is it a fact that your panties are still in a bunch since that Davidowitz-Byk-Lava Man radio debacle?

[thaskalos]

Is it a fact that your panties are still in a bunch since that Davidowitz-Byk-Lava Man radio debacle?Ancient history...:)

[gm10]

I really couldn't care less if she wins HOY or not, as long as she wins the Classic.

[tucker6]

Ancient history...:)
Which part is ancient history ??? The wearing of panties or the Byk blowup?? :lol:

Sorry, it was too good to pass up. My apologies.

[WinterTriangle]

Somehow, I doubt anyone will be talking about QR or Blame on internet forums
5 years from now.

(Winning the BC Classic isn't going to change that for either of them).

HOY or no HOY, BCC win or not BCC win, Zenyatta will go down in history as one of the most memorable US mares in racing.



I really couldn't care less if she wins HOY or not, as long as she wins the Classic.

She already did that last year.

I hope she wins again for you. That will make 3 Breeder Cup race wins for her. It sure wouldn't hurt for an almost 7 year old mare to win, given how we do things here, as usually value in the breeding shed is put before racing.

[Nikki1997]

Actually, a big reason Azeri won is because Volponi won the Classic. If one of the big colts won the Classic and Z the Distaff, she would not be HOY again in my opinion.

Zenyatta will NOT be going in the Distaff. WILL NOT. For those who harbor this thought, don't. Her connections have had the Classic in mind the entire year. THE ENTIRE YEAR. It is out there. Has been out there.

They mean to have this mare in the gate on November 6th. John Shirreffs has trained this mare for this race, just like he did last year. But, hey, let's wait until after the fact. I put it out on other forums two months before the Classic last year that she would be going in that race.

It's as plain as the nose on your face. BUT, that's only if one can get by the garbage to see what's going on.

[bigmack]

Ironically enough, with the above in mind, Zenyatta's campaigns the last 2 years have been the complete antithesis of what this sport needs to renew interest.
And that, in a nutshell, explains my disdain for the connections.
With all due respect to you two cats, let me get this straight - You're now saying that you resent her handling because she could have done more to draw interest into the sport?

[bisket]

the biggest and most important criteria for a candidate to be eligible for hoy is they have to first dominate their particular group in the eclipse awards. rachel dominated the 3 year old filly and ultimately all the three year olds. rachel wasn't the "best" horse last year, but her accomplishment in regards to her classification (3 year old filly) outweighed every other candidate. this is why she was deserving of hoy.

now this brings us to this year. which other horse, if zenyatta loses the classic, dominated the older horse division? i don't see a dominate horse from that division. which was also the case last year. did another horse dominate their classification? theres little doubt that zenyatta dominated the older filly and mare division. this argument that zenyatta didn't defeat another grade1 horse should take into consideration THAT ZENYATTA WON EVERY GRADE1 AND 2 RACE FOR OLDER FILLIES AND MARES IN CALIFORNIA!!!!! so it would be impossible for another horse to be a "grade1 winner"

once again everyone critical of zenyatta tries to classify her in the older horse division when arguing their points. so you can say how much you don't consider her an all time great etc. etc. but the fact you keep doing this admits that you do think she's a great horse....

yup she raced in california and didn't come to new york. get over it!!!

[cj]

Zenyatta will NOT be going in the Distaff. WILL NOT. For those who harbor this thought, don't. Her connections have had the Classic in mind the entire year. THE ENTIRE YEAR. It is out there. Has been out there.

They mean to have this mare in the gate on November 6th. John Shirreffs has trained this mare for this race, just like he did last year. But, hey, let's wait until after the fact. I put it out on other forums two months before the Classic last year that she would be going in that race.

It's as plain as the nose on your face. BUT, that's only if one can get by the garbage to see what's going on.

Really? No shit? I had no idea.

[cj]

I really couldn't care less if she wins HOY or not, as long as she wins the Classic.

Pretty useless post, since obviously a win and she is HOY.

[cj]

With all due respect to you two cats, let me get this straight - You're now saying that you resent her handling because she could have done more to draw interest into the sport?

I've said that all along. I've always said if she wins, it will be even sadder to think how much more interesting her year could have been.

[cj]

I hope she wins again for you. That will make 3 Breeder Cup race wins for her. It sure wouldn't hurt for an almost 7 year old mare to win, given how we do things here, as usually value in the breeding shed is put before racing.

Almost 7? Come on, the BC is held the same time every year and it isn't like she was foaled in January.

Females are not quickly retired for the breeding shed like colts, but you know that already.

[FenceBored]

Almost 7? Come on, the BC is held the same time every year and it isn't like she was foaled in January.

Females are not quickly retired for the breeding shed like colts, but you know that already.

Unless (like Flashing) they're owned by Godolphin. {sorry couldn't resist}

[Nikki1997]

Really? No shit? I had no idea.

No doubt. You haven't had an idea about this mare since she broke her maiden in November of 2007.

[the little guy]

No doubt. You haven't had an idea about this mare since she broke her maiden in November of 2007.


We can't all be as smart as you(s).

[Charlie D]

We can't all be as smart as you(s).

True

[cj]

No doubt. You haven't had an idea about this mare since she broke her maiden in November of 2007.

Really? How do you know?

Here is what I wrote about her in 2008 before the BC:

"Any analysis begins with Zenyatta. It is sometimes nice to try and be clever and beat a big favorite, but I just don't see it here. She can run fast enough early, and simply flies late. "

"Who will be Horse of the Year? If Curlin wins, it will be him, if not, probably Ladies Classic winner Zenyatta. I loved Curlin last year, but I think he will get beat here. If this race were on dirt, it would be a walk over, but I think he will struggle on synthetics."

Feel free to make things up on the fly though.

[the little guy]

Really? How do you know?

Here is what I wrote about her in 2008 before the BC:

"Any analysis begins with Zenyatta. It is sometimes nice to try and be clever and beat a big favorite, but I just don't see it here. She can run fast enough early, and simply flies late. "

"Who will be Horse of the Year? If Curlin wins, it will be him, if not, probably Ladies Classic winner Zenyatta. I loved Curlin last year, but I think he will get beat here. If this race were on dirt, it would be a walk over, but I think he will struggle on synthetics."

Feel free to make things up on the fly though.

Mikki probably saw that.

[Dahoss9698]

the biggest and most important criteria for a candidate to be eligible for hoy is they have to first dominate their particular group in the eclipse awards. rachel dominated the 3 year old filly and ultimately all the three year olds. rachel wasn't the "best" horse last year, but her accomplishment in regards to her classification (3 year old filly) outweighed every other candidate. this is why she was deserving of hoy.

now this brings us to this year. which other horse, if zenyatta loses the classic, dominated the older horse division? i don't see a dominate horse from that division. which was also the case last year. did another horse dominate their classification? theres little doubt that zenyatta dominated the older filly and mare division. this argument that zenyatta didn't defeat another grade1 horse should take into consideration THAT ZENYATTA WON EVERY GRADE1 AND 2 RACE FOR OLDER FILLIES AND MARES IN CALIFORNIA!!!!! so it would be impossible for another horse to be a "grade1 winner"

once again everyone critical of zenyatta tries to classify her in the older horse division when arguing their points. so you can say how much you don't consider her an all time great etc. etc. but the fact you keep doing this admits that you do think she's a great horse....

yup she raced in california and didn't come to new york. get over it!!!

You've really outdone yourself here. CJ's avatar is so appropriate.

In case you missed it people have presented arguements that there is another older mare who has faced better this year and would be deserving of the award with a BC win and Zenyatta flop. It's not going to happen, but a case could definitely be made.

[Nikki1997]

We can't all be as smart as you(s).

It doesn't take smarts, it takes paying attention. The information is out there. One just has to read it. Obviously, that is beyond your comprehension. Like others on this board, you want to fling insults when you haven't taken the time to read something.

You don't take the time to find out about a horse when it's right in front of your face, but you'll make unfounded accusations to cover your rear.

I've got it.

[cj]

It doesn't take smarts, it takes paying attention. The information is out there. One just has to read it.

You mean like posting stuff about me without reading what I've written?

[Charlie D]

I've been telling people to spend more time reading instead of talking, but they just won't listen.


:)

[cj]

I keep telling people to spend more time reading instead of talking, but they just won't listen.


:)

It is doubly hard for some. Imagine reading something as Mikki, but forgetting when you pose as Nikki that you've read it already.

[thaskalos]

Wisdom can be learned...but it cannot be taught.

[Dahoss9698]

Wisdom can be learned...but it cannot be taught.

My fortune cookie said the same thing tonight.

[thaskalos]

My fortune cookie said the same thing tonight.Smart cookie...

[Charlie D]

My fortune cookie said the same thing tonight.


I was wondering where thaskalos had nicked the comment from :)

[Spalding No!]

With all due respect to you two cats, let me get this straight - You're now saying that you resent her handling because she could have done more to draw interest into the sport?

No. I suggested that to revive the sport, the participants need to improve racing at the top level. Zenyatta's last 2 campaigns, IMO, underscore how bad racing at the Grade 1 level is right now. This is ironic because many consider her some sort of poster child for horse racing's revival.

If I resent her handling it's because, as a fan, I feel "robbed" of seeing a great horse tackling an equally great campaign(s). I could care less if any new fans are lured into the sport by the illusory "unbeatable" rhetoric that surrounds her. The majority won't stick around, and the few that do will realize how naive they were in their opinion of her as a racemare after they come to understand the sport.

If the Mosses et al. were actually running the mare "for the fans" (don't worry--they aren't), then it would make sense to cater to fans who have already been around (and who know how a great horse is measured).

[bigmack]

No. I suggested that to revive the sport, the participants need to improve racing at the top level. Zenyatta's last 2 campaigns, IMO, underscore how bad racing at the Grade 1 level is right now. This is ironic because many consider her some sort of poster child for horse racing's revival.

If I resent her handling it's because, as a fan, I feel "robbed" of seeing a great horse tackling an equally great campaign(s). I could care less if any new fans are lured into the sport by the illusory "unbeatable" rhetoric that surrounds her. The majority won't stick around, and the few that do will realize how naive they were in their opinion of her as a racemare after they come to understand the sport.

If the Mosses et al. were actually running the mare "for the fans" (don't worry--they aren't), then it would make sense to cater to fans who have already been around (and who know how a great horse is measured).
This, in a microcosm, is the essence of the continuing debate. And make little mistake, it is by any measure a small world debate that takes on fevered-pitch 'round these parts.

Are you, cj, tlg, dahoss, et al., taking a position that she could have put to rest any doubt & brought legions of new racing enthusiasts had she been campaigned in earnest that you all would find worthy? Do you honesty feel cheated by not seeing her challenged in company that would merit any long standing accolade in the history of the game? Or, is this simply a little game between those who find her undeserving of much irrespective of her handling and the fans wrapped-up in the frenzy of yet another win?


Arguably, she's been handled in an unprofessional, back-turning fashion to the spirit of the highest levels of the game.

"Mosses" - That's plural for Mr. & Mrs Moss, right? :D

[RXB]

We're all free to voice our opinions. But of course, if somebody were to follow the very path that I suggest with their horse and it goes very wrong, I'm not the one left with the damaged asset, facing public wrath and media criticism.

She's a 6YO, still running and barring misfortune will make her 20th start in the Classic. I bet most owners would've retired her after the Classic last year. So I can't get too down on Moss. The horse has had more starts than the vast majority of top-class runners ever reach these days, and will have ran twice in the biggest race of the year against males.

It's tough for the connections to win as it's a Catch-.22 situation. Lukas ran Azeri in the Met Mile and the Classic and a lot of people said "What is he thinking?" And of course, when she was well-beaten in both races then it became even easier to pillory the guy.

Rachel Alexandra ran three times against males last year and this year many people said, "Look, they ran her into the ground last year."

I can also think of lots of excellent fillies that never ran against males and whose connections didn't receive such an abundance of public scorn for keeping them against their own gender.

[Cardus]

I'm not reading the thread.

I totally disagree with Sheriffs, whose comments I read early today elsewhere, about Zenyatta winning the Horse-of-the-Year award regardless of her finish in the Breeders' Cup Classic.

All year long, he has said that the goal is the Classic. And her limited, careful, no-risk campaign reflected that statement.

OK, now win the Classic to win Horse-of-the-Year.

Given her campaign, she should be judged exclusively on this race.

Win it, get Horse-of-the-Year.

Lose it, GFY.

[Spalding No!]

This, in a microcosm, is the essence of the continuing debate. And make little mistake, it is by any measure a small world debate that takes on fevered-pitch 'round these parts.

You sure about that, Captain Obvious? Cuz I quit my job, abandoned my family, and canceled my annual check-up to see this thing through.

Are you, cj, tlg, dahoss, et al., taking a position that she could have put to rest any doubt & brought legions of new racing enthusiasts had she been campaigned in earnest that you all would find worthy?

Once again, I said nothing of the kind. Zenyatta is a single horse. It would take many good horses, racing in more than one campaign, running against other good horses multiple times to bring in legions of new fans.

Do you honesty feel cheated by not seeing her challenged in company that would merit any long standing accolade in the history of the game?

Yes. Is that shocking to read coming from a fan? IMO, she could have at least emulated Lava Man (remember him?) and his '06 campaign (the crux of which were the Big Cap, HP Gold Cup, and Pacific Classic). The difference being she'd probably perform better in the BC.

Or, is this simply a little game between those who find her undeserving of much irrespective of her handling and the fans wrapped-up in the frenzy of yet another win?

You're making up things now to suit your ridiculous purpose, Dr. Phil. "...irrespective of her handling" is a complete fabrication on your part. If I'm considered a Zenyatta "detractor", it has everything to do with her "handling". Thanks for playing.

"Mosses" - That's plural for Mr. & Mrs Moss, right? :D

Yep. I know it was wrong, but I had a problem typing 's' 3 straight times despite the apostrophe.

Thanks for pointing it out, though. Now I know where the screenname "Big Mack" comes from.

[thaskalos]

No. I suggested that to revive the sport, the participants need to improve racing at the top level. Zenyatta's last 2 campaigns, IMO, underscore how bad racing at the Grade 1 level is right now. This is ironic because many consider her some sort of poster child for horse racing's revival.

If I resent her handling it's because, as a fan, I feel "robbed" of seeing a great horse tackling an equally great campaign(s). I could care less if any new fans are lured into the sport by the illusory "unbeatable" rhetoric that surrounds her. The majority won't stick around, and the few that do will realize how naive they were in their opinion of her as a racemare after they come to understand the sport.

If the Mosses et al. were actually running the mare "for the fans" (don't worry--they aren't), then it would make sense to cater to fans who have already been around (and who know how a great horse is measured).You are clearly very knowledgeable and I don't want you to think that I am arguing with you just for argument's sake...but do you really think that improving racing's top level will revive the sport? Is this a gambling game or is it a form of entertainment?

Horseracing is primarily a gambling game...and unless it supplies the customer with a reasonably formful and fairly priced product, the chances of a revival are mighty slim - regardless of the prestige of the Grade1 races.

You are welcome to disagree with me of course...

[Cardus]

You are clearly very knowledgeable and I don't want you to think that I am arguing with you just for argument's sake...but do you really think that improving racing's top level will revive the sport? Is this a gambling game or is it a form of entertainment?

Horseracing is primarily a gambling game...and unless it supplies the customer with a reasonably formful and fairly priced product, the chances of a revival are mighty slim - regardless of the prestige of the Grade1 races.

You are welcome to disagree with me of course...

Where did you get that impression?

[Dahoss9698]

Are you, cj, tlg, dahoss, et al., taking a position that she could have put to rest any doubt & brought legions of new racing enthusiasts had she been campaigned in earnest that you all would find worthy? Do you honesty feel cheated by not seeing her challenged in company that would merit any long standing accolade in the history of the game? Or, is this simply a little game between those who find her undeserving of much irrespective of her handling and the fans wrapped-up in the frenzy of yet another win?




It's not a little game at all. It's about perspective. It's about not getting wrapped up in her record and looking at who she is beating.

I think they had a chance to do some really special things with her. Even if they didn't ship, she had 3 different chances every year to run in 10 furlong races, in their own backyard and they decided against it.

I know Shirreffs is probably a good guy. But he says some really stupid things. Rockies, rail trip highest mountain and the latest HOY stuff. I resent that they act like shipping is some major obstacle, yet Shirreffs has no problem shipping Zardana all over.

They had a chance to campaign her in a way that would probably erase a lot of the doubt and they chose not to. I have always believed that the best should run against the best. Zenyatta is the best horse in California. But her connections don't treat her that way and her fans seem okay with it. It's sort of mind boggling.

I also resent that the horses I grew up watching and that ran before I was a fan are pushed aside because of a meaningless record. And make no mistake, the record has as much to do with who she is beating as it does about how good she really is. I resent people mentioning her winning 5 grade 1's this year. She has yet to face a fellow grade 1 winner this year, so what does that say about the quality of horses she is beating?

It's okay to lose. When you compete at the highest levels, you lose sometimes. A lot of the time, you earn more respect for your losses as you would by beating up on the same old tired competition that EVERYONE knows you are better than.

[Charlie D]

Might be wrong, but is not most money gambled when the Top horses take on the Top horses like at the Breeders Cup, Royal Ascot, Arc, Cheltenham Festival etc.

[Cardus]

It's not a little game at all. It's about perspective. It's about not getting wrapped up in her record and looking at who she is beating.

I think they had a chance to do some really special things with her. Even if they didn't ship, she had 3 different chances every year to run in 10 furlong races, in their own backyard and they decided against it.

I know Shirreffs is probably a good guy. But he says some really stupid things. Rockies, rail trip highest mountain and the latest HOY stuff. I resent that they act like shipping is some major obstacle, yet Shirreffs has no problem shipping Zardana all over.

They had a chance to campaign her in a way that would probably erase a lot of the doubt and they chose not to. I have always believed that the best should run against the best. Zenyatta is the best horse in California. But her connections don't treat her that way and her fans seem okay with it. It's sort of mind boggling.

I also resent that the horses I grew up watching and that ran before I was a fan are pushed aside because of a meaningless record. And make no mistake, the record has as much to do with who she is beating as it does about how good she really is. I resent people mentioning her winning 5 grade 1's this year. She has yet to face a fellow grade 1 winner this year, so what does that say about the quality of horses she is beating?

It's okay to lose. When you compete at the highest levels, you lose sometimes. A lot of the time, you earn more respect for your losses as you would by beating up on the same old tired competition that EVERYONE knows you are better than.

See Seattle Slew, Gold Cup '78.

[RXB]

She has yet to face a fellow grade 1 winner this year, so what does that say about the quality of horses she is beating?


Zenyatta hasn't faced a bunch of monsters this year, but St. Trinians did win the Santa Maria which is a Gr 1 race.

[Dahoss9698]

Zenyatta hasn't faced a bunch of monsters this year, but St. Trinians did win the Santa Maria which is a Gr 1 race.

No it isn't. The Santa Maria is a grade 2.

[thaskalos]

They had a chance to campaign her in a way that would probably erase a lot of the doubt and they chose not to. I have always believed that the best should run against the best. Zenyatta is the best horse in California. But her connections don't treat her that way and her fans seem okay with it. It's sort of mind boggling.
Nobody thinks that the horse was properly campaigned Dahoss...but who is listening to us? The connections lay out the plans for their horse, and that's it!

It's okay for us to argue as far as the horse's ability is concerned...but you guys are painting us as hero-worshiping groupies - and we are middle aged men with many years of experience playing this game.

[Cardus]

Zenyatta hasn't faced a bunch of monsters this year, but St. Trinians did win the Santa Maria which is a Gr 1 race.

C'mon, bro.

You can't tie her greatness, or goodness, or whatever you want to call it, to St. Trinians.

[RXB]

You're right, Dahoss. It had always been a Gr 1 but just got downgraded this year. I hadn't noticed that.

[riskman]

Wisdom can be learned...but it cannot be taught.



This subject in itself would be an interesting discussion in "OFF TOPIC". I am not going to start it, but some here on PA might be surprised at what they learn.

http://wisdomresearch.org/forums/t/185.aspx#314

[bks]

bigmack,

Your excellent work on this thread is almost sufficient to have me reconsider some of your political opinions. Very well done :)

Thanks to cj, dahoss9698 and spalding too for their honest opinions. Really gained some insight in the last couple of pages.

[letswastemoney]

Even if the Santa Maria were a G1, St. Trinians finished 6th in the SA Cap. A female G1 race is just not equivalent to a male/open company G1 race.

If people are going to make Zenyatta the favorite in this year's Classic, they must be basing it on last year's Classic win, because none of her races this year are that impressive.

[Dahoss9698]

Nobody thinks that the horse was properly campaigned Dahoss...but who is listening to us? The connections lay out the plans for their horse, and that's it!

It's okay for us to argue as far as the horse's ability is concerned...but you guys are painting us as hero-worshiping groupies - and we are middle aged men with many years of experience playing this game.

Plenty of people think she was properly campaigned. Have you read some of these threads?

The second paragraph is what is the most frustrating. I can understand the newbies not having perspective. But you have seen a lot of talented horses run. What gives?

[Cardus]

Nobody thinks that the horse was properly campaigned Dahoss...but who is listening to us? The connections lay out the plans for their horse, and that's it!

It's okay for us to argue as far as the horse's ability is concerned...but you guys are painting us as hero-worshiping groupies - and we are middle aged men with many years of experience playing this game.

Based upon what I have read here, this sounds about right to me.

[RXB]

C'mon, bro.

You can't tie her greatness, or goodness, or whatever you want to call it, to St. Trinians.

Which do you think it is? Greatness or goodness?

If it's only goodness, then entering her against males would be silly.

[bigmack]

You're making up things now to suit your ridiculous purpose, Dr. Phil. "...irrespective of her handling" is a complete fabrication on your part. If I'm considered a Zenyatta "detractor", it has everything to do with her "handling".
IThey had a chance to campaign her in a way that would probably erase a lot of the doubt and they chose not to. I have always believed that the best should run against the best. Zenyatta is the best horse in California. But her connections don't treat her that way and her fans seem okay with it.
Forgive me for rolling on a cursory glance at your views. I don't follow with detail these threads but I have a sneaking suspicion you're both sharp cats with a strong feeling of adhering to the traditions of the game and the avenues for recognizing greatness.

Then again, haven't you, and your like minded comrades, taken a tack to an area that postures more in a "she's a truck and she would have been summarily beaten by any average G1/2 hoss of any ability east of Vegas?"

Tough to tell if ya'll feel she's a truck or an unproven talent within the rank & file necessary to secure a place in racing herstory.

[Spalding No!]

You are clearly very knowledgeable and I don't want you to think that I am arguing with you just for argument's sake...but do you really think that improving racing's top level will revive the sport? Is this a gambling game or is it a form of entertainment?

Horseracing is primarily a gambling game...and unless it supplies the customer with a reasonably formful and fairly priced product, the chances of a revival are mighty slim - regardless of the prestige of the Grade1 races.

You are welcome to disagree with me of course...

I agree there are serious problems with the sport beyond just the top class racing. From my perspective, improving the Grade 1 racing would be appealing to both those who view the sport as a form of gambling and those who view it as a form of entertainment (I realize one group outweighs the other).

Would this alone be enough revive the sport? No, that was an exaggeration (this is a Zenyatta thread after all). But nonetheless, I think its a critical component, for no other reason than its the top class racing that "the outside world" typically has exposure to.

[Charlie D]

Which do you think it is? Greatness or goodness?

If it's only goodness, then entering her against males would be silly.


You don't have to be Great or the Greatest F&M to beat males, all you need is superior ability.

[Cardus]

Zenyatta hasn't faced a bunch of monsters this year, but St. Trinians did win the Santa Maria which is a Gr 1 race.

Mentioning St. Trinians does not enhance Zenyatta's record.

[Dahoss9698]

Then again, haven't you, and your like minded comrades, taken a tack to an area that postures more in a "she's a truck and she would have been summarily beaten by any average G1/2 hoss of any ability east of Vegas?"



Not at all and it's another one of those things that people sort of like to make up. Since you said you don't follow with great detail, i understand why you might think that, but it just isn't true.

It's actually the complete opposite. I think she's really good, so I want to see her race in spots that test her. it's her followers that seem to want to protect her...or themselves.

[Edward DeVere]

Shirreffs Talks Zenyatta | BloodHorse.com

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59370/shirreffs-talks-zenyatta

Excerpt:

On his disappointment if she would not win Horse of the Year in 2010, even if she loses the BC Classic:

“I would think it would be almost too much. For what she does for the industry for the last three years, I would say that would be a real slap in the face. Not only on performance but what’s she’s done for racing.”

God, I despise this man.

LOVE the horse, LOATHE the trainer.

[RXB]

Mentioning St. Trinians does not enhance Zenyatta's record.

You had mentioned that already.

[RXB]

You don't have to be Great or the Greatest F&M to beat males, all you need is superior ability.

Well if it were commonplace to find such a filly with superior ability to the best males, I'm sure that more than one would've won the Classic in 26 years and more than a couple would've tried it.

Myself, if I owned a filly that I thought contained "goodness" but not "greatness" by female standards I wouldn't be bothering entering her in the Classic.

[Charlie D]

Well if it were commonplace to find such a filly with superior ability to the best males, I'm sure that more than one would've won the Classic in 26 years and more than a couple would've tried it.

Myself, if I owned a filly that I thought contained "goodness" but not "greatness" by female standards I wouldn't be bothering entering her in the Classic.


Please tell me was there a Tiznow, Curlin, Invasor, Cigar ability horse running in the 2009 Classic or any race Zen has been in??

[RXB]

Please tell me was there a Tiznow, Curlin, Invasor, Cigar bility horse running in the 2009 Classic or any race Zen has been in??

Did I ever say there was? No. So now you're really losing me. Because if there was a male horse that I thought was "great" or at least superior by Gr 1 male standards, again I wouldn't even bother entering the filly.

[Dahoss9698]

Well if it were commonplace to find such a filly with superior ability to the best males, I'm sure that more than one would've won the Classic in 26 years and more than a couple would've tried it.

Myself, if I owned a filly that I thought contained "goodness" but not "greatness" by female standards I wouldn't be bothering entering her in the Classic.

I'm not sure why you're back on this kick. Especially since you sort of apologized for doing it earlier.

The sport is such that there is very little separating a majority of horses. The difference between claimers and stakes horses is almost non existant. Zenyatta can compete with males. She wouldn't be undefeated, but she should be running against males (at least out west) because she is a lot better than the famles running there.

We've seen females win the BC Sprint, Mile and Turf. Maybe if more females tried the Classic they would have won. I wouldn't disagree with anyone thinking Inside Information could have won the Classic in 1995, considering the way she demolished that field.

[Tom]

Somehow, I doubt anyone will be talking about QR or Blame on internet forums
5 years from now.
(Winning the BC Classic isn't going to change that for either of them).
HOY or no HOY, BCC win or not BCC win, Zenyatta will go down in history as one of the most memorable US mares in racing.


Good point. Name the last 5 Classic winners. Curlin, Zenyatta, some Euro horse......uh, ...uh....who cares? I made a big score on the Euro horse, and I have no frigging idea who it was now.

Now, if we get helicopters this year, Quality Road might become memorable! :D

[thaskalos]

Plenty of people think she was properly campaigned. Have you read some of these threads?

The second paragraph is what is the most frustrating. I can understand the newbies not having perspective. But you have seen a lot of talented horses run. What gives?Honestly...I can't explain it even to myself.

I know from my vast experience in pace and speed handicapping that the horse's running style and the synthetic surfaces she runs over are not conducive to fast final times and landslide victories...but shouldn't she have raced even ONE really fast race in her career - even by accident?

I know that the crawling early pace of her races make her performances hard to evaluate from a speed rating perspective...so I re-handicap her races by overemphasizing the last quarters of her races...like we usually do with the grass races - and these new figures tell me that she is the best horse in the country.

But if Zenyatta is really the best horse in the country...can a horse like SWITCH be only a neck behind?

Finally I reason that she is a true "professional" race horse...doing only enough to win...but then I am reminded that she is also just a horse, and horses are not generally regarded as the most intelligent animals around.

Having said all that...there is a feeling I get when I watch her run that tells me that she is "toying" with her competition...even when she wins by a neck.

And I can't wait for the 3 weeks to pass so I can find out for sure...

[Charlie D]

Did I ever say there was? No. So now you're really losing me. Because if there was a male horse that I thought was "great" or at least superior by Gr 1 male standards, again I wouldn't even bother entering the filly.


I wasn't saying you had, i asked you a question, which you seem to have answered


What i've been trying to do in numerous posts is show that Zen is being over-hyped and if people learnt to read properly they would see that was so.


The PPs tell people all they need to know.

Zen is a good horse, she may be better than she has already shown, but some imho need handicapping lessons. ( no disrespect meant, but i do not know of another way to put it)

[Cardus]

Honestly...I can't explain it even to myself.

I know from my vast experience in pace and speed handicapping that the horse's running style and the synthetic surfaces she runs over are not conducive to fast final times and landslide victories...but shouldn't she have raced even ONE really fast race in her career - even by accident?

I know that the crawling early pace of her races make her performances hard to evaluate from a speed rating perspective...so I re-handicap her races by overemphasizing the last quarters of her races...like we usually do with the grass races - and these new figures tell me that she is the best horse in the country.

But if Zenyatta is really the best horse in the country...can a horse like SWITCH be only a neck behind?

Finally I reason that she is a true "professional" race horse...doing only enough to win...but then I am reminded that she is also just a horse, and horses are not generally regarded as the most intelligent animals around.

Having said all that...there is a feeling I get when I watch her run that tells me that she is "toying" with her competition...even when she wins by a neck.

And I can't wait for the 3 weeks to pass so I can find out for sure...

This defies rational explanation. I'm not getting into a pissing match with you about this element, but it doesn't make sense.

[bks]

thaskalos wrote:
Honestly...I can't explain it even to myself.

I know from my vast experience in pace and speed handicapping that the horse's running style and the synthetic surfaces she runs over are not conducive to fast final times and landslide victories...but shouldn't she have raced even ONE really fast race in her career - even by accident?

I know that the crawling early pace of her races make her performances hard to evaluate from a speed rating perspective...so I re-handicap her races by overemphasizing the last quarters of her races...like we usually do with the grass races - and these new figures tell me that she is the best horse in the country.

But if Zenyatta is really the best horse in the country...can a horse like SWITCH be only a neck behind?

Finally I reason that she is a true "professional" race horse...doing only enough to win...but then I am reminded that she is also just a horse, and horses are not generally regarded as the most intelligent animals around.

Having said all that...there is a feeling I get when I watch her run that tells me that she is "toying" with her competition...even when she wins by a neck.

And I can't wait for the 3 weeks to pass so I can find out for sure...

I think you just explained it pretty well. I'd only add that Mike Smith contributes significantly to her only doing enough to win. I don't mean it as criticism.

[thaskalos]

This defies rational explanation. I'm not getting into a pissing match with you about this element, but it doesn't make sense.What do you want me to tell you?

I am telling you the truth....whether it makes sense or not.

[Cardus]

I think you just explained it pretty well. I'd only add that Mike Smith contributes significantly to her only doing enough to win. I don't mean it as criticism.

So, if she were ridden by Cordero, we wouldn't be having this debate?

[RXB]

Zen is a good horse, she may be better than she has already shown, but some imho need handicapping lessons. ( no disrespect meant, but i do not know of another way to put it)

If people think I'm a lousy handicapper, so be it. I've had worse things said about me, that's for sure.

[Cardus]

What do you want me to tell you?

I am telling you the truth....whether it makes sense or not.

No, I get what you mean.

You think that she knows where the wire is and times it perfectly -- by herself -- to do just enough to win?

I'm not sure that a human could do that to win a sporting competition.

But Zenyatta can?

[Charlie D]

Twice Over won Champion Stakes today again, WHY because there is no Rip Van Winkle, no Conduit, No Sea The Stars ability horse in feild.

Zen wins 19 because there is no Tiznow, no Cigar, no Curlin, no Invasor, No Rachel, no Rags


She win 19-0 because she is the horse with the superior ability and it is highly probable she will make it 20 because there is n Tiznow etc.

[thaskalos]

No, I get what you mean.

You think that she knows where the wire is and times it perfectly -- by herself -- to do just enough to win?

I'm not sure that a human could do that to win a sporting competition.

But Zenyatta can?Is this more of the sarcasm that you are known for? :)

[Cardus]

Is this more of the sarcasm that you are known for? :)

Actually, no. It's all straight up.

[Charlie D]

If people think I'm a lousy handicapper, so be it. I've had worse things said about me, that's for sure.


Not saying your a lousy capper RXB, i just don't know of a better way to put it

I'm trying to point out that if you read the PP's properly you can see there are no Top males, if there are no Top males then the races are not as strong as they should be.


Zen has not beaten the best, because the best didn't show up, the horse that showed up were the second best, third best etc

How can a horse be considered a Great, when in reality it is beating up horses that are not even near it's equal in terms of ability.

[RXB]

Not saying your a lousy capper RXB i just don't know of a better way to put it

I'm trying to point out that if your read the PP's properly you can see there are no Top males, if there are no Top males then the races are not as strong as they should be.

Zen has not beaten the best, because the best didn't show up, the horse that showed up were the second best, third best etc

How can a horse be considered a Great, when in reality it is beating up horses that are not even near it's equal in terms of ability.

You can say I need to take handicapping lessons or learn to read PP's properly or whatever. I don't care if you think I'm not bright, and that's not the point.

I thought that I'd been pretty clear for quite some time that I consider Zenyatta to have been an excellent runner by female standards, not male standards.

[Charlie D]

RXB, forget the handicapping lesson comment, it was poor comment from me, i should have put it another, way.

OK,

Who were the females in Zen races that were equal to her ability???

[Charlie D]

I just had a quick look and i can not see a Rachel, a Goldikova, a Rags to Riches, a Ouija Board, a Pride ability F&M in any race Zen has run in.


Can you RXB or anyone else??

[RXB]

Who were the females in Zen races that were equal to her ability???

There haven't been any females in Zenyatta's races that were equal to her ability. Same with Rachel Alexandra in her 3YO races vs. females. Their divisional counterparts tried and tried and tried and couldn't beat them.

Anyway, everybody's entitled to their opinions. I've expressed mine more than enough. I had initially just wanted to make a point that the Beyer figures shouldn't be the sole metric for judging the ability of horses but I ended up yapping way more than I should've, and on topics that had nothing to do with that initial premise, for which I apologize. Time to admit my error and check out.

[Charlie D]

There haven't been any females in Zenyatta's races that were equal to her ability. Same with Rachel Alexandra in her 3YO races vs. females. Their divisional counterparts tried and tried and tried and couldn't beat them.

Anyway, everybody's entitled to their opinions. I've expressed mine more than enough. I had initially just wanted to make a point that the Beyer figures shouldn't be the sole metric for judging the ability of horses but I ended up yapping way more than I should've, and on topics that had nothing to do with that initial premise, for which I apologize. Time to admit my error and check out.


There you go, so you are someone who does not need to learn to read properly.

Much the best F&M wasn't she in ALL races because there was no Rachel, no Goldikova, no Oujia Board, no Rags, no Pride etc ability females.


So what do we have throughout Zens career. We have a good horse beating up second and third raters. male and female

How can anyone consider that as Greatness or even an exceptional achievement

[WinterTriangle]

Zen has not beaten the best, because the best didn't show up

They didn't show up for anyone else, either. :D

Actually, last year was a little disappointing too, other than the filly, and Zen's BCC.

Certainly, we can't put Macho Again, Mine that Bird, Rip Van Winkle et. al. , in the greatness category.

But we have to call the horses who show up "the best" because that is how we essentially assemble a G1 level race. But often, they are just who showed up...........again ----which of those will even be topics of conversation 5 years from now?


Please tell me was there a Tiznow, Curlin, Invasor, Cigar ability horse running in the 2009 Classic or any race Zen has been in??

Some racing fans talk as if they expect "greatness" to come along more often than it does, like every year. ;) I guess I don't. Greatness is not prolific and certainly not in abundance.

The industry has to get together and have their awards every year, nevertheless, right?

The PPs tell people all they need to know.

They don't, IMHO. They give a puzzle with many missing pieces. One needs to look further to find what is not actually ON there, including that which does not come in the form of mathematical constructs, even though most of the info on a PP is expressed numerically.

I guess I would say it DEPENDS on how much a person wants to *know* about a horse -- before I would say a PP has all anyone needs to know. ;)