Very brave article about Goldikova at DRF today...

[letswastemoney]

http://drf.com/news/biggest-star-breeders-cup-will-be-goldikova

Headline reads...Biggest star at Breeders' Cup will be Goldikova. Interesting that I can't find the author anywhere on the page.

It's for his own physical safety though I assume.

***edit they added on the author after I read it the first time

[Dahoss9698]

I thought this was the best part of the article:

Naysayers will point out Zenyatta’s perfect 19-for-19 record, but without disparaging what she has accomplished, it must be pointed out that Zenyatta has been dodging top-quality competition for most of her career. Had she been challenging and beating the best of the breed the way Goldikova has done since the middle of her 3-year-old campaign, Zenyatta backers might have an argument. But her stay-at-home Southern California campaigns at the ages of 4, 5, and 6 against a modest bunch of fillies and mares paints her as a provincial champion with only a single world-class performance to her credit, that when beating one of the weaker Breeders’ Cup Classic fields last year in her backyard at Santa Anita.

Goldikova, on the other hand, has never dodged the best of her own generation, the best of the previous generation, or the best of the next generation. Nor has she evaded males of any age. Nor has she stayed home in the Paris region and waited for horses to come to her.

Hard to argue with any of those points.

[JBmadera]

http://drf.com/news/biggest-star-breeders-cup-will-be-goldikova

Headline reads...Biggest star at Breeders' Cup will be Goldikova. Interesting that I can't find the author anywhere on the page.

It's for his own physical safety though I assume.

Alan Shuback.....and why would he need to concerned about his safety?

[letswastemoney]

Alan Shuback.....and why would he need to concerned about his safety?
The author wasn't there when I looked at it the first time. They must have just added it on.

I'm glad to see who wrote it though! I like knowing which authors I could trust.

[Irish Boy]

I could have told you who wrote it just by looking at the headline. Shuback has made a healthy career of pimping European horses and European racing at every opportunity. He's not always wrong, but he's quite biased.

[Charlie D]

Seems to make some excellent points in the part Dahoss has posted, so i'd give article a :ThmbUp:

[cpitt84]

Great article. I enjoy reading about goldikova.

[Dahoss9698]

I could have told you who wrote it just by looking at the headline. Shuback has made a healthy career of pimping European horses and European racing at every opportunity. He's not always wrong, but he's quite biased.

I agree with everything say here. He's biased towards Europeans, no doubt and for the most part can't stand him. However, most of the points he has made here are valid.

[PhantomOnTour]

Goldikova's career is the example of how to campaign a champion. Travel and face the best boys and girls on their turf, your turf, any turf. Not scared to lose...we will remember her wins and not those few setbacks when it's all over.
Shuback is right, but Zen will get the most hype. She's a champ in her own right, but imo Goldy has had the better career because of her owner. Who knows what Zen really could have done??? We've had the pleasure of finding that out with Goldikova.

[OTM Al]

She's incredible and the reason I've decided to go the BC even though I'm going to have to drive 12 hrs to get there. The BC Mile this year may shape up to be one of the best races in the world this year as far as talent goes if the Europeans all do show up.

Said it before and will say it again. She was the best filly/mare to run in the States last year and will be again this.

BTW if you didn't realize it, Shuback is the international racing correspondent for DRF so what do you expect him to write?

[Irish Boy]

Like I said, I don't necessarily disagree with what he wrote here.

Seattle Slew could be reanimated from the dead and entered into the BC Classic, and Shuback would have an article about how that's an interesting story, but the REAL story is just how weak the zombie Seattle Slew is on grass.

[the little guy]

Like I said, I don't necessarily disagree with what he wrote here.

Seattle Slew could be reanimated from the dead and entered into the BC Classic, and Shuback would have an article about how that's an interesting story, but the REAL story is just how weak the zombie Seattle Slew is on grass.


Judging by his accomplishments as a sire he might have been one helluva turf horse.


But, you're right.

[Charlie D]

OK


Although the author makes some excellent points he seems to fail to mention Goldikova has not faced horses from dowin under or been to far east. Now to be considered "best in world" should you not have to have took on and beaten the rest of the world???

Seems author is doing exactly the same as Zen fans, in that he too, is over-hyping a horse.

[ArlJim78]

I don't believe that many knowledgable Zenyatta fans would disagree with Shuback. Goldikova is the biggest star at this show. Naturally she's not getting the hype like Zenyatta, but her record speaks for itself.

[ronsmac]

Goldikova is a big star, but she's just a miler in Europe which is almost like a 6f horse over here. The true classic european horses are 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 types, thus she's not the true star in my opinion.

[Cardus]

The author wasn't there when I looked at it the first time. They must have just added it on.

I'm glad to see who wrote it though! I like knowing which authors I could trust.

Don't get carried away.

[Cardus]

I don't believe that many knowledgable Zenyatta fans would disagree with Shuback. Goldikova is the biggest star at this show. Naturally she's not getting the hype like Zenyatta, but her record speaks for itself.

Why, Jim, why?

[Tom]

I don't believe that many knowledgable Zenyatta fans would disagree with Shuback. Goldikova is the biggest star at this show. Naturally she's not getting the hype like Zenyatta, but her record speaks for itself.

If I gave a shit about Euro racing, maybe, but I couldn't care less about their racing. If she comes over fine, but if not, it will not bother me in the least, In fact, I hope it comes up soft that day to hurt her chances. Might get a nice price on something else.

[JustRalph]

I like watching her ........ great horse. Al...... if you need to make a stop near Baltimore.......let me know........

[ArlJim78]

If I gave a shit about Euro racing, maybe, but I couldn't care less about their racing. If she comes over fine, but if not, it will not bother me in the least, In fact, I hope it comes up soft that day to hurt her chances. Might get a nice price on something else.
Is it Euro racing when she wins the Breeders cup two years in a row? How do you approach the BC turf races, do you just ignore any Euro horse because you don't care about Euro racing and simply hope they lose?

Personally I like to see the best horses race, regardless of what continent they call home.

[Tom]

No, I usually play the Euros on turf or poly) but I don't get all excited about Euro racing. I bet them one day - I could care what happens the rest of the year. the last two years, on poly, I had to look deeper into Euros to get a handle on who was coming here.....and hated it.

[OTM Al]

Goldikova is a big star, but she's just a miler in Europe which is almost like a 6f horse over here. The true classic european horses are 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 types, thus she's not the true star in my opinion.

A mile is a classic distance in Europe. This may be one of the most ignorant statements I've seen in a while.

[jonnielu]

I agree with everything say here. He's biased towards Europeans, no doubt and for the most part can't stand him. However, most of the points he has made here are valid.

Apparently, it makes a huge difference when someone is telling you what you want to hear.

jdl

[jonnielu]

Goldikova's career is the example of how to campaign a champion. Travel and face the best boys and girls on their turf, your turf, any turf. Not scared to lose...we will remember her wins and not those few setbacks when it's all over.
Shuback is right, but Zen will get the most hype. She's a champ in her own right, but imo Goldy has had the better career because of her owner. Who knows what Zen really could have done??? We've had the pleasure of finding that out with Goldikova.

That's weird, maybe one of the "know all" posters can chime in with the reasons that Goldikova, being "the example of how to campaign a champion" failed to show up for a showdown with Zenyatta the past couple of years.

jdl

[FenceBored]

That's weird, maybe one of the "know all" posters can chime in with the reasons that Goldikova, being "the example of how to campaign a champion" failed to show up for a showdown with Zenyatta the past couple of years.

jdl

Duh, Goldikova showed up, Zenyatta just ducked her by going in the main track races. It's rather rude when you think about it. Here Goldikova comes 9000k just to meet her, and that stuck up Zenyatta acts like she doesn't know Goldikova's there.

[jonnielu]

Duh, Goldikova showed up, Zenyatta just ducked her by going in the main track races. It's rather rude when you think about it. Here Goldikova comes 9000k just to meet her, and that stuck up Zenyatta acts like she doesn't know Goldikova's there.

Wow, I didn't even know that you had become one of the "know all" posters. That's even worse, Goldikova ponies up for airfare and all, then enters the wrong race. Bummer.

jdl

[Robert Goren]

Duh, Goldikova showed up, Zenyatta just ducked her by going in the main track races. It's rather rude when you think about it. Here Goldikova comes 9000k just to meet her, and that stuck up Zenyatta acts like she doesn't know Goldikova's there.Sarcasm will not get you far here.

[KingChas]

Alan Shuback has been Daily Racing Form's foreign correspondent since 1993.

Not very biased.....huh. ;)

[Charlie D]

That's weird, maybe one of the "know all" posters can chime in with the reasons that Goldikova, being "the example of how to campaign a champion" failed to show up for a showdown with Zenyatta the past couple of years.

jdl

Read her PP properly jonnie and i'm sure you will be able to figure out why.

BTW, any idea why Zen failed to show up for showdown with Ravens Pass, Henrythenavigator and Curlin in 2008

[FenceBored]

Wow, I didn't even know that you had become one of the "know all" posters. That's even worse, Goldikova ponies up for airfare and all, then enters the wrong race. Bummer.

jdl

It's called compromise. Goldikova comes 45,294 furlongs to race, and all Zenyatta has to do is cut back 1 (2008) or 2 furlongs (2009) to meet her. Who did the hard work here?

Heck, did Zenny even take Goldy clubbing after the races? As Jerry Moss's horse you'd think she'd know the best clubs and be on all the lists. No she didn't, cause she's a lousy hostess and a ducker to boot.

[joanied]

Goldikova is a big star, but she's just a miler in Europe which is almost like a 6f horse over here. The true classic european horses are 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 types, thus she's not the true star in my opinion.

Then maybe you'd feel better if they say she's the best miler in the world...and although I don't get into the Euro's either, Goldy is certainly a star:ThmbUp: ...and I'm really looking foward to seeing her here again.

[Tom]

Read her PP properly jonnie and i'm sure you will be able to figure out why.

BTW, any idea why Zen failed to show up for showdown with Ravens Pass, Henrythenavigator and Curlin in 2008

Same reasons Goldy ducked them?
But maybe Curlin crossing the Rockies with his ASS in baggage might explain when RA ducked them all.:D

This is getting way past ridiculous.:rolleyes:

[Charlie D]

Same reasons Goldy ducked them?
But maybe Curlin crossing the Rockies with his ASS in baggage might explain when RA ducked them all.:D

This is getting way past ridiculous.:rolleyes:

The silliness never ends Tom :)

[jonnielu]

Read her PP properly jonnie and i'm sure you will be able to figure out why.

BTW, any idea why Zen failed to show up for showdown with Ravens Pass, Henrythenavigator and Curlin in 2008

That's weird, untold thousands read the PP's (seems that some might have done it properly, even by accident) and figured out that Curlin would win the 2008 BCC. A lot of the same people might have figured out that Lawyer Ron would win the 2007 BCC.

For myself, I gave up trying to figure things out via PP's a few decades back. After 30 years, it still seems a game for suckers.

I would think that Zen's connections didn't enter the 2008 BCC because they thought that Curlin would be a slam-dunk winner, just like Goldikova's not popping across the pond for one of the $500,000 purses that Zen has routinely gathered (against non-factor competition) because they see Zen as the slam-dunk winner.

jdl

[OntheRail]

If I gave a shit about Euro racing, maybe, but I couldn't care less about their racing. If she comes over fine, but if not, it will not bother me in the least, In fact, I hope it comes up soft that day to hurt her chances. Might get a nice price on something else.

In order to come up soft on the turf that means rain... and rain falls indiscriminately. So that would mean a sealed or wet main. And we all know what happen the last time Zenyatta step a hoof on Churchill Downs when the track was damp and sealed. She did not put a hoof on the track that day. I don't think Goldikova will be bothered by our soft turf and much as Zenyatta by a wet track. ;)

So wishing in one hand leave mud in the other. :lol:

[the little guy]

That's weird, untold thousands read the PP's (seems that some might have done it properly, even by accident) and figured out that Curlin would win the 2008 BCC. A lot of the same people might have figured out that Lawyer Ron would win the 2007 BCC.

For myself, I gave up trying to figure things out via PP's a few decades back. After 30 years, it still seems a game for suckers.

I would think that Zen's connections didn't enter the 2008 BCC because they thought that Curlin would be a slam-dunk winner, just like Goldikova's not popping across the pond for one of the $500,000 purses that Zen has routinely gathered (against non-factor competition) because they see Zen as the slam-dunk winner.

jdl

What's the weather like on Jupiter today?

[Steve R]

Goldikova is a big star, but she's just a miler in Europe which is almost like a 6f horse over here. The true classic european horses are 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 types, thus she's not the true star in my opinion.
Someone else has already pointed out the ignorance of your comment, so I will just add the fact that three of the six highest rated European horses in the entire history of Timeform were sprinters or milers (Tudor Minstrel, co-2nd ranked), Abernant (co-4th ranked) and Windy City II (also co-4th ranked). Currently, Goldikova is ranked second best in the world behind King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes winner Harbinger.

[Fager Fan]

Someone else has already pointed out the ignorance of your comment, so I will just add the fact that three of the six highest rated European horses in the entire history of Timeform were sprinters or milers (Tudor Minstrel, co-2nd ranked), Abernant (co-4th ranked) and Windy City II (also co-4th ranked). Currently, Goldikova is ranked second best in the world behind King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes winner Harbinger.

What does that prove? Isn't one of the highest Beyers ever held by Groovy? I don't think that makes him either one of the best ever over the likes of Sec or Bid and it also doesn't make sprints more prestigeous than routes.

[Cat Thief]

Does she run at 11/4 miles? I think she is the best in her category which iI think is the turf mile but I might be wrong as I haven't saw her pps

[Steve R]

What does that prove? Isn't one of the highest Beyers ever held by Groovy? I don't think that makes him either one of the best ever over the likes of Sec or Bid and it also doesn't make sprints more prestigeous than routes.
Timeform Ratings are not speed figures. They are a general assessment of a horse's absolute quality. From the Timeform web site:

"Timeform ratings on the Flat stretch right back to the first Racehorses annual, which came out in 1948, and over jumps to the time of the first jumps Black Books in the early-60s. More recently they have included all the best horses in the world, not just those that have raced in Britain.

Timeform ratings express in terms of pounds the level of form a horse has shown. On the Flat they range from below 30 for bad performers to over 130 for the real top-notchers. Over jumps the range is from below 60 to over 165. Horses without recent rateable form appear as a dash.

Great care is taken to keep the level of Timeform ratings consistent from one season to the next (after due allowance has been made for various factors that might alter the overall picture), so that comparisons between different generations can be made".

And no, Groovy was not better than Secretariat or Spectacular Bid, although neither of those would have had a prayer of defeating him at less than a mile. The prejudice against sprinters in the US is certainly real, but had Groovy raced in England or France, I am fairly sure he would have been among Timeform's all-time elite runners. He was almost certainly as good as or superior to Dayjur who was rated at 137, equal to Ghostzapper and only a pound below Cigar. So yes, I believe Groovy was one of the best ever sprinters. To their credit, his owners were adventurous enough to try him many times at route distances albeit without a win, although he finished within a length of Broad Brush in the Wood Memorial. In sprints he was 17-12-2-0.

Apparently you've bought into the uniquely America-centric view that sprinters and milers are inferior. If so, I would consider that an especially ignorant position.

[tucker6]

Apparently you've bought into the uniquely America-centric view that sprinters and milers are inferior. If so, I would consider that an especially ignorant position.Especially considering he named himself after quite possibly the greatest American miler ever.

[JustRalph]

This thread is the definition of "Snarky"

[RXB]

And no, Groovy was not better than Secretariat or Spectacular Bid, although neither of those would have had a prayer of defeating him at less than a mile.

I cannot believe that Spectacular Bid would've had no chance at 7f against Groovy, considering his massive 7f victory as a 2YO at Atlantic City (1:20-and-change, as a 2YO!) or his facile Malibu win.

[Fager Fan]

Timeform Ratings are not speed figures. They are a general assessment of a horse's absolute quality. From the Timeform web site:

"Timeform ratings on the Flat stretch right back to the first Racehorses annual, which came out in 1948, and over jumps to the time of the first jumps Black Books in the early-60s. More recently they have included all the best horses in the world, not just those that have raced in Britain.

Timeform ratings express in terms of pounds the level of form a horse has shown. On the Flat they range from below 30 for bad performers to over 130 for the real top-notchers. Over jumps the range is from below 60 to over 165. Horses without recent rateable form appear as a dash.

Great care is taken to keep the level of Timeform ratings consistent from one season to the next (after due allowance has been made for various factors that might alter the overall picture), so that comparisons between different generations can be made".

And no, Groovy was not better than Secretariat or Spectacular Bid, although neither of those would have had a prayer of defeating him at less than a mile. The prejudice against sprinters in the US is certainly real, but had Groovy raced in England or France, I am fairly sure he would have been among Timeform's all-time elite runners. He was almost certainly as good as or superior to Dayjur who was rated at 137, equal to Ghostzapper and only a pound below Cigar. So yes, I believe Groovy was one of the best ever sprinters. To their credit, his owners were adventurous enough to try him many times at route distances albeit without a win, although he finished within a length of Broad Brush in the Wood Memorial. In sprints he was 17-12-2-0.

Apparently you've bought into the uniquely America-centric view that sprinters and milers are inferior. If so, I would consider that an especially ignorant position.

I well know what Timeform is. I find it absurd that you think that because a specialist such as a miler or sprinter gets a good number (rags, beyer, tgraph, timeform, take your pick) that this proves that the horses are just as respected as routers.

Since the view is so ignorant, why haven't the Europeans ever made a stink in the near-30 years of the BC about the Turf being more valuable both money-wise and in championship honors than the Mile? It's only been recent that we even look at the winners of the Mile for turf honors. Even Lure wasn't looked at.

[FenceBored]

I well know what Timeform is. I find it absurd that you think that because a specialist such as a miler or sprinter gets a good number (rags, beyer, tgraph, timeform, take your pick) that this proves that the horses are just as respected as routers.

Since the view is so ignorant, why haven't the Europeans ever made a stink in the near-30 years of the BC about the Turf being more valuable both money-wise and in championship honors than the Mile? It's only been recent that we even look at the winners of the Mile for turf honors. Even Lure wasn't looked at.

Uh, then how do you explain that 4 of the first 5 BC Mile winners were the Eclipse winning Male or Female Turf horse? Royal Heroine in 1984, Cozzene in 1985, and Miesque in both 1987 & 1988.

[Fager Fan]

Uh, then how do you explain that 4 of the first 5 BC Mile winners were the Eclipse winning Male or Female Turf horse? Royal Heroine in 1984, Cozzene in 1985, and Miesque in both 1987 & 1988.

Miesque is an understandable exception though they didn't make that same exception with Lure. With Lure, the argument was that he was just a miler.

How many milers have been chosen for the Cartier Horse of the Year award? That should tell us if Europeans view milers with the same prestige as they do their longer distance horses.

[Steve R]

Miesque is an understandable exception though they didn't make that same exception with Lure. With Lure, the argument was that he was just a miler.

How many milers have been chosen for the Cartier Horse of the Year award? That should tell us if Europeans view milers with the same prestige as they do their longer distance horses.
Five including four of the first five Cartier winners were either milers or pure sprinters. Then, I assume those who make the award had some mysterious epiphany and saw the evil of their initial misguided ways.

[ronsmac]

Someone else has already pointed out the ignorance of your comment, so I will just add the fact that three of the six highest rated European horses in the entire history of Timeform were sprinters or milers (Tudor Minstrel, co-2nd ranked), Abernant (co-4th ranked) and Windy City II (also co-4th ranked). Currently, Goldikova is ranked second best in the world behind King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes winner Harbinger.
She can't get the classic distance . period.

[tucker6]

She can't get the classic distance . period.What's that have to do with how worthy she is for a HOY trophy??

[OTM Al]

She can't get the classic distance . period.

As I pointed out, she gets a European Classic distance just fine and the race of that distance has been around a lot longer than any American "Classic". 1 1/4 Miles is an odd distance in Europe, not really considered middle distance, which would be at around 1 1/2 miles, the distance of a second classic yet shorter than the classic distance for stayers, 1 3/4 miles.

So directly as to your point, who cares? Sprinters can be great, just as milers, just as middle distance horses, just as stayers. Zenyatta isn't going to win many sprints, so should we say she is no good either? She would be in trouble against good milers as well. This horse has won 11 Group 1 races in Europe. This is a singular achievement.

[the little guy]

She can't get the classic distance . period.


Actually, she beat Stacelita, who is pretty good, at a distance slightly farther than 1 1/8 this year, and I think you would find more than a few people that believe if you can negotiate that distance on the more demanding European courses, you could likely get 1 1/4 here.

That is not to say she would excel at 1 1/4 in America, but it is certainly more fair than you saying " She can't get the classic distance.....period. "

[Seabiscuit@AR]

Winning a BC race on the turf up to and including a mile is really the equivalent of winning an egg and spoon race

[Fager Fan]

Five including four of the first five Cartier winners were either milers or pure sprinters. Then, I assume those who make the award had some mysterious epiphany and saw the evil of their initial misguided ways.

So 4 of 19, and none in the last 15 years? That proves which horses/races they hold in highest esteem.

[cj]

Actually, she beat Stacelita, who is pretty good, at a distance slightly farther than 1 1/8 this year, and I think you would find more than a few people that believe if you can negotiate that distance on the more demanding European courses, you could likely get 1 1/4 here.

That is not to say she would excel at 1 1/4 in America, but it is certainly more fair than you saying " She can't get the classic distance.....period. "

I guess I'll have to make this my signature...

"Please, don't let facts get in the way of a good rant."

[OTM Al]

Winning a BC race on the turf up to and including a mile is really the equivalent of winning an egg and spoon race

Some would say winning the BC on poly amounts to the same. Both would be wrong.

[the little guy]

I guess I'll have to make this my signature...

"Please, don't let facts get in the way of a good rant."


Zenyatta's greatest quality may be that she has given us a lifetime of great signatures.

[Linny]

Goldikova is a big star, but she's just a miler in Europe which is almost like a 6f horse over here. The true classic european horses are 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 types, thus she's not the true star in my opinion.

Late as I am, I must disagree. The "miler" division is Europe is far stronger than the 10 to 12f divisions. I daresay that most owners would rather win the Guineas than the Derby in terms of residual value. Races like the St. James' Palace, the Sussex, the QEII and the Marois are much more valued than many 12f events. While the 10f standards like the Champion and the Juddmonte are still very much prized, the 12f events other than the Arc itself and not as prized as they once were. They have become the equalivalent of the Belmont here. St Leger winners are all but poison as breeding prospects.

I do think that US voters in grass divisions often try to lean too heavily on 10-12f form and fail to reward the miler. Most of our major racing on grass it from 8-9 furlongs, yet the Eclipse voters cling to the 12f standard and most time will choose a weak or Euro based BC Turf winner over a strong US based miler.

[Charlie D]

Does she run at 11/4 miles? I think she is the best in her category which iI think is the turf mile but I might be wrong as I haven't saw her pps

She was beaten by Zarkava in the Prix Diane in 2008 as a 3yo, which is 10.5f and has never attempted a distance further than 9f 55yds since.

[Charlie D]

For myself, I gave up trying to figure things out via PP's a few decades back. After 30 years, it still seems a game for suckers.
l

Interesting comment.


Where do you get the info to compile the Ability X ratings then??

[Charlie D]

As I pointed out, she gets a European Classic distance just fine and the race of that distance has been around a lot longer than any American "Classic". 1 1/4 Miles is an odd distance in Europe, not really considered middle distance, which would be at around 1 1/2 miles, the distance of a second classic yet shorter than the classic distance for stayers, 1 3/4 miles.




Prix De Jockey Club (sometimes known as French Derby) and Prix De Diane ( sometimes known as French Oaks) are 10.5f. so you could say these are considered "Classic" distances in Europe along with 8f , 12f and 14f

[Steve R]

So 4 of 19, and none in the last 15 years? That proves which horses/races they hold in highest esteem.
It's 5 of 9 and Rock of Gibraltar won in 2002. Of course the year before the Cartier Awards were created in 1991, the European Horse of the Year (based on the International Classifications) was Dayjur, a sprinter, so that would be 6 of 20. The year before that the co-European Horse of the Year was the miler Zilzal, making it 7 o f 21. In 1988 it was the miler Warning (with miler Miesque in second place); 8 for 22. In recent years there has been an exceptional collection of European 3yos who have dominated the Cartier Awards; however, two of the last six older horse awards have gone to milers. So, frankly, you seem to understand very little about how Europeans have historically evaluated their horses.

[Steve R]

Late as I am, I must disagree. The "miler" division is Europe is far stronger than the 10 to 12f divisions. I daresay that most owners would rather win the Guineas than the Derby in terms of residual value. Races like the St. James' Palace, the Sussex, the QEII and the Marois are much more valued than many 12f events. While the 10f standards like the Champion and the Juddmonte are still very much prized, the 12f events other than the Arc itself and not as prized as they once were. They have become the equalivalent of the Belmont here. St Leger winners are all but poison as breeding prospects.

I do think that US voters in grass divisions often try to lean too heavily on 10-12f form and fail to reward the miler. Most of our major racing on grass it from 8-9 furlongs, yet the Eclipse voters cling to the 12f standard and most time will choose a weak or Euro based BC Turf winner over a strong US based miler.
Outstanding perspective! Thank you.

[Fager Fan]

It's 5 of 9 and Rock of Gibraltar won in 2002. Of course the year before the Cartier Awards were created in 1991, the European Horse of the Year (based on the International Classifications) was Dayjur, a sprinter, so that would be 6 of 20. The year before that the co-European Horse of the Year was the miler Zilzal, making it 7 o f 21. In 1988 it was the miler Warning (with miler Miesque in second place); 8 for 22. In recent years there has been an exceptional collection of European 3yos who have dominated the Cartier Awards; however, two of the last six older horse awards have gone to milers. So, frankly, you seem to understand very little about how Europeans have historically evaluated their horses.

We're just counting Cartier awards and HOYs, so you're changing the criteria here.

I'll ask again how the BC set up the turf races so wrong, considering that from the start were created for the European contingency? The Turf has always been the second biggest race on the card and with the second largest purse, supposedly to crown the best of the turf horses. Not a soul from Europe has complained that we've got it backwards, that it's the milers who are Europe's best?

[Charlie D]

We're just counting Cartier awards and HOYs, so you're changing the criteria here.

I'll ask again how the BC set up the turf races so wrong, considering that from the start were created for the European contingency? The Turf has always been the second biggest race on the card and with the second largest purse, supposedly to crown the best of the turf horses. Not a soul from Europe has complained that we've got it backwards, that it's the milers who are Europe's best?



As others have stated, 8, 10 and 12f are held in very high regard in Europe, the awards horses get are pretty meaningless

Breeders breed based on Black type, not awards.

[RXB]

I cannot believe that Spectacular Bid would've had no chance at 7f against Groovy, considering his massive 7f victory as a 2YO at Atlantic City (1:20-and-change, as a 2YO!) or his facile Malibu win.

I decided that I should post the full evidence:

http://www.drf.com/sites/default/files/Spectacular%20Bid.pdf

Three tries at 7f, all in graded stakes, all easy wins. Margins of 15, 3 3/4 and 5 lengths. If there is a better 2YO sprint performance in history than his race at Atlantic City, I am not aware of it. 1:20 4/5 time is a tremendous time for a 2YO on any surface; to do it on a "good" track with a variant of 25 is unreal.

The truly great classic-distance horses are not plodders. They have outstanding speed and can sprint with the best of them. Forego, between wins in the 12f Woodward and the 2-mile Jockey Club Gold Cup, won the 7f Vosburgh easily. (Try imagining Groovy or Duck Dance pulling off the reverse.) And Forego was not exactly a blazer in the early stages of a race.

The best runners can run both fast and far.

[Fager Fan]

As others have stated, 8, 10 and 12f are held in very high regard in Europe, the awards horses get are pretty meaningless

Breeders breed based on Black type, not awards.

Breeding isn't racing. We haven't changed the Derby and Classic to run at 1 mile due to breeders' like for milers.

[Charlie D]

Breeding isn't racing. We haven't changed the Derby and Classic to run at 1 mile due to breeders' like for milers.


Breeding and racing are intertwinned and what have the KD and Classic got to do with a European racing discussion??


BTW FF, if you go look at RP site > statistics > Sire and First Crop you will see numerous sprinters and milers at the Top of the list.

Look up Oasis Dream ( a sprinter) and his progeny.

[Fager Fan]

Breeding and racing are intertwinned and what have the KD and Classic got to do with a European racing discussion??


BTW FF, if you go look at RP site > statistics > Sire and First Crop you will see numerous sprinters and milers at the Top of the list.

Look up Oasis Dream ( a sprinter) and his progeny.

You're missing my point. We like milers in the breeding shed as well. That has nothing to do with respect garnered for races won on the race track. Pointing out that the biggest races aren't at 1 mile would be indicative of this fact. The Arc isn't run at 1 mile and neither is the Derby, arguably the 2 biggest races in the world.

[Charlie D]

Again you seem to be showing your lack of knowledge regarding Euro racing. The Arc is JUST the Top 12f race in Europe. Also in Europe there are TOP mile races like the Guineas (French, Irish and English versions), QEII, Top sprints like the Golden Jubilee ( part of the Global Sprint Challenge Series) King Stand and July Cup

[Steve R]

We're just counting Cartier awards and HOYs, so you're changing the criteria here.

I'll ask again how the BC set up the turf races so wrong, considering that from the start were created for the European contingency? The Turf has always been the second biggest race on the card and with the second largest purse, supposedly to crown the best of the turf horses. Not a soul from Europe has complained that we've got it backwards, that it's the milers who are Europe's best?
I'm not changing criteria. You just don't know the history. There have been European HOY awards for decades which, in 1991, were made part of the Cartier Racing Awards. Previous Euro HOYs include Ribot, Sea-Bird II and Brigadier Gerard.

I have no idea how they originally set up the BC races. Why is the biggest non-turf race at 10f, one of the least competitive distances in modern American racing? And no one has said the European milers were superior, only that historically they are held in the highest esteem, which you have denied.

[mountainman]

I agree with everything say here. He's biased towards Europeans, no doubt and for the most part can't stand him. However, most of the points he has made here are valid.
A common friend put me in touch with Shuback when I needed some info for an article. He's more rude and condescending even than you might imagine from the elitest tone in his writings. The guy is sharp and informed, though, and could have helped me immensely had he just afforded me a few minutes. My impression was he is not much loved by his peers at drf.

[Linny]

We're just counting Cartier awards and HOYs, so you're changing the criteria here.

I'll ask again how the BC set up the turf races so wrong, considering that from the start were created for the European contingency? The Turf has always been the second biggest race on the card and with the second largest purse, supposedly to crown the best of the turf horses. Not a soul from Europe has complained that we've got it backwards, that it's the milers who are Europe's best?


Americans tend the think that the 12f division is most important on turf and thus established the heirarchy. Of course, the Cup was invented in the early 80's (planning started in about 1980-81, if I recall) and things were different then. (The Belmont wasn't always a red-headed stepchild either.) The Americans looked at Europe and figured "their biggest race is the Arc, so 12f must be their ultimate criteria" and thus the 12f Turf was born.
The BC founders hoped to create and "American Arc" but it has not happened. They have boosted the purse over the last decade to no avail. One could argue that the Turf has been the weakest of the "original" BC races for the last few years. Lets face it, Conduit is average at best and was by far the most mortal lock of the last 2 cups (excluding Goldikova) because he was facing very weak fields. I love ol' Precious Passion but, ... really? Sorry, Red Rocks, English Channel and Conduit do not point to the Turf being even close to the "second most important race of the series."
Fager Fan, do you follow racing in Europe or just read about it when the Breeders' Cup rolls around? Do you actually read European writers, not Shuback who is an American?

Steve R, when the Cup was born there were alot more important 10f dirt races. In fact there were still important 12f dirt races then too, like the JCGC. The Suburban, the Woodward and the Marlboro Cup were very important G1's, destination races for top older horses. They were all 10f and they were races that were "HOY makers".

[RXB]

The BC founders hoped to create and "American Arc" but it has not happened. They have boosted the purse over the last decade to no avail. One could argue that the Turf has been the weakest of the "original" BC races for the last few years. Lets face it, Conduit is average at best and was by far the most mortal lock of the last 2 cups (excluding Goldikova) because he was facing very weak fields. I love ol' Precious Passion but, ... really? Sorry, Red Rocks, English Channel and Conduit do not point to the Turf being even close to the "second most important race of the series."

Steve R, when the Cup was born there were alot more important 10f dirt races. In fact there were still important 12f dirt races then too, like the JCGC. The Suburban, the Woodward and the Marlboro Cup were very important G1's, destination races for top older horses. They were all 10f and they were races that were "HOY makers".

Good post. The BC Turf rarely attracts the very best 12f Euro horses; it's often been won by a Euro who is more of a 10f specialist over there, which says something about the level of stamina in the contemporary North American thoroughbred. The Arc draws the best 12f competition, and the International at Woodbine siphons off a few second-level Euros that might've ran in the BC Turf, instead.

Whereas, the BC Mile doesn't have the same competition in terms of major races and thus is more successful at attracting the best Euro milers. There isn't really a mile race that is so rich and important in Europe that the connections will be as tempted to say, "We're foregoing the Breeders' Cup Mile to point for this race instead." Plus, North American horses are more competitive at a mile.

[RXB]

You're missing my point. We like milers in the breeding shed as well. That has nothing to do with respect garnered for races won on the race track. Pointing out that the biggest races aren't at 1 mile would be indicative of this fact. The Arc isn't run at 1 mile and neither is the Derby, arguably the 2 biggest races in the world.

Yes. They run important mile races in Europe but none carry the prestige (or purse size) of the biggest 12f races.

[Charlie D]

Yes. They run important mile races in Europe but none carry the prestige (or purse size) of the biggest 12f races.


The Triple Crown consists of The Guineas, The Derby and The St Leger. The first Classic of the season are the 2000 and 1000 Guineas

The Classic Distances are 8f, 12f and 14f The French and Irish Guineas are 8f too.

Please do not try and alter the history of racing to suit your argument and read about it's history instead

http://www.eclipsemagazine.co.uk/NewEclipse/Joomla15/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1159:history-of-the-2000-guineas&catid=101:big-days-out&Itemid=184

[RXB]

The Guineas, try as you may, is not as prestigious as the Derby. Or the Arc. No mile race is.

[Charlie D]

The Guineas, try as you may, is not as prestigious as the Derby. Or the Arc. No mile race is.




Please stop talking out of your ass.

[RXB]

For starters, try keeping it non-personal.

Secondly, what I said is an utter fact. I'm not going to argue it any further; it's just obvious.

[Charlie D]

Pleae present your facts that tell us the Guineas distance of 8f is not a Classic distance.

I can't wait.

[RXB]

Please present where I said it wasn't. Are you actually reading what I said?

[Charlie D]

Later development in Britain

By the end of the 18th century, the English Classic races (http:///wiki/British_Classic_Races) had been established. These are the St. Leger Stakes (http:///wiki/St._Leger_Stakes), founded in 1776, the Epsom Oaks (http:///wiki/Epsom_Oaks), founded in 1779, and the Epsom Derby (http:///wiki/Epsom_Derby) in 1780. Later, the 2,000 Guineas Stakes (http:///wiki/2,000_Guineas_Stakes) and the 1,000 Guineas Stakes (http:///wiki/1,000_Guineas_Stakes) were founded in 1809 and 1814.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoroughbred


Now please present your facts that tell us the above is not true

[Charlie D]

For starters, try keeping it non-personal.

Secondly, what I said is an utter fact. I'm not going to argue it any further; it's just obvious.


Please present your facts

[Steve R]

[snip]...Steve R, when the Cup was born there were alot more important 10f dirt races. In fact there were still important 12f dirt races then too, like the JCGC. The Suburban, the Woodward and the Marlboro Cup were very important G1's, destination races for top older horses. They were all 10f and they were races that were "HOY makers".
You are absolutely right. In 2009 there were 14 North American non-turf graded races at 10f or longer: 9 at 10f, 2 at 11f and 3 at 12f. In 1983 there were 34 such races: 26 at 10f, 2 at 11f, 4 at 12f, 1 at 13f and 1 at 18f.

Perhaps I should have asked why the BC Classic is still run at 10f.

Below is the percentage breakdown of graded races at the common distances where the first figure is the distance, the second figure is the percentage in 1983 and the third figure is the percentage in 2009. Pretty sad IMO.

6.0f, 8.7%, 16.2%
7.0f, 12.2%, 12.0%
8.0f, 3.1%, 15.7%
8.5f, 21.3%, 19.9%
9.0f, 29.5%, 22.5%
10.0f, 10.2%, 4.7%

[RXB]

Most people, Charlie, can distinguish between the statements "is not as prestigious as" (which is what I said about Guineas vis-a-vis the Derby and Arc) and "is not prestigious" (which I have never said and never would say about the Guineas).

I shouldn't have to go into any specific detail about the Arc/Derby being more prestigious than the Guineas, as it's patently obvious. I'll say this: if real money were on the line, I'd be happy to bet that:

-- TV viewership is not as high for the Guineas
-- wagering is not as great for the Guineas
-- if somebody polled 100 horsemen and asked them if they would place a Guineas win on equal footing with a Derby or Arc win, the response would be a resounding "no"
-- if somebody went through the British public library system looking for books specifically about the Guineas or the Derby, the number for the latter would swamp the former. (A Google search returned 619,000 results for "2000 Guineas"-- and of course, there are Irish and Kiwi races of the same name-- versus 2,010,000 results for "Epsom Derby.")

I also know that the Arc and Derby purses are much, much higher than the Guineas' purse.

Anyway, this is my final say on it. Have the last word if you must, but I don't know how much more obvious it could be.

P.S., you might want to take it up with Wikipedia, too. I quote: "It {the Derby} is Britain's richest horse race, and the most prestigious of the country's five classics." As well: "... it {the Arc} is the most prestigious horse race in Europe..."

[Charlie D]

Number of viewers, Purses etc have nothing to do with prestige of a race


8f is a Classic distance as shown in England, it carries G1 status just like the Derby, Arc etc. The distance was copied in France before the Arc was even thought of, Copied in Ireland, the HK mile was intorduced in 1990's


8f not important as 10 and 12f may be correct in US, but it is not correct in other countries and anyone with knowledge of International scene would know this.

[Linny]

First of all, my 10 year old son could enter info on Wikipedia.

If you read the Euro racing press and see quotes from trainers, owners and pundits all year long, you know that for any the miles like the St James' Palace, the QEII, the Marois etc are as important, if not more than the Derbies. I will say that France, more than the UK has kept it's allegiance to the 10-12f horse. The UK by contrast is deeply in the thrall of the miler.

Charlie D, I think you are responding to the same "in Europe they prefer stamina to speed" mentality that most Americans hold. That's why the BCT has such a position. (See my earlier post.) At Royal Ascot there are major G1's in most every division but the St James' Palace is almost always the most anticipated race of the meeting. Also, they run TWO Gr I races in only one division, sprinters!

[Charlie D]

The two sprints are the King Stand (5f )and Golden Jubilee( 6f)

And with those in mind. The connections of horses like Choisir, Miss Andretti, Takeover Target, Sacred Kingdom, Scenic Blast, Cannonball, Cape of Good Hope are not travelling 1000's of miles to race in 10/12f races or coming because of the purses on offer.

[Cardus]

There is nothing "brave" about this column. He cites facts to arrive at a reasonable conclusion.

Regardless of how she runs at Churchill Downs, Goldikova and her connections get the "Anti-Zenyatta Award" for 2008-09-10.

Even if I were the most blinded-to-reasoning Zenyatta fan, I'd like to think that I would read this column and think, "I wish Zenyatta had been campaigned even just a little bit like Goldikova."

[Robert Goren]

She is very good turf miler. The best turf horses run in the turf classic not in the turf mile. Last year she could have gone in the dirt classic at SA since it was on poly, but she didn't.

[the little guy]

She is very good turf miler. The best turf horses run in the turf classic not in the turf mile. Last year she could have gone in the dirt classic at SA since it was on poly, but she didn't.


Keep that finger of yours on the pulse.

[OTM Al]

I guess it's time we ban all races not between 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 miles as they have no point.

[Cardus]

Why couldn't a turf miler not be the best horse in the world, if you believe that "most accomplished" means "the best"?

Not everyone is going to use "most accomplished" as the measuring stick for "the best," but what else can you use?

[CincyHorseplayer]

I guess it's time we ban all races not between 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 miles as they have no point.

That's proper.That way we can sleep at night and set our alarms to mile and quarter or better races,speaking nothing in between!!:)

[tzipi]

I thought this was the best part of the article:

Naysayers will point out Zenyatta’s perfect 19-for-19 record, but without disparaging what she has accomplished, it must be pointed out that Zenyatta has been dodging top-quality competition for most of her career. Had she been challenging and beating the best of the breed the way Goldikova has done since the middle of her 3-year-old campaign, Zenyatta backers might have an argument. But her stay-at-home Southern California campaigns at the ages of 4, 5, and 6 against a modest bunch of fillies and mares paints her as a provincial champion with only a single world-class performance to her credit, that when beating one of the weaker Breeders’ Cup Classic fields last year in her backyard at Santa Anita.

Goldikova, on the other hand, has never dodged the best of her own generation, the best of the previous generation, or the best of the next generation. Nor has she evaded males of any age. Nor has she stayed home in the Paris region and waited for horses to come to her.

Hard to argue with any of those points.

Very hard to argue.

[Linny]

She is very good turf miler. The best turf horses run in the turf classic not in the turf mile. Last year she could have gone in the dirt classic at SA since it was on poly, but she didn't.

Are you saying that Conduit and Red Rocks are better than Goldikova, Miesque, Rock of Gibralter, Zilzal etc?

[nearco]

You guys are all wrong.
The most important distance in European racing currently is 10f.
As soon as a horse wins the Derby, the first thing they do is cut them back to 10f to get some stallion cred.
Likewise, the top milers more often than not will be stretched out to 10f after racking up a few G1 wins at 8f to try and show they have some versatility.

But in public perception, 12f still is the classic middle distance and trumps the mile.
Sea the Star, while probably the quinessential 10f horse, was generally considered to be a better miler than a 12f horse. Yet, he never ran at 8f again he won the Guineas and annexed the two most important 12f races in the world. If the mile was as equally important, then why did he not run in the Sussex, the Marois, the QEII?
Also, don't make me list the prize money for the top European races. The mile races will lag behind the 10f and 12f races.

So, while milers are by no means considered the red headed step children, they are not on the top rung along with the 10-12f horses.

[Charlie D]

The most important distance in European racing currently is 10f.


Then why are races like Dante, Eclipse, Irish Champion, Champion Stakes not overflowing with runners?? Why is there not more 3yo's on ferry to France for the 10.5f Derby and Oaks. Why are Freddie Head?? Richard Hannon messing about with mile races with Goldikova and Paco Boy??? Why do connections bother with races like Guineas , QEII etc ???


Just a few questions for people to ponder.

[Charlie D]

BTW Nearco, who were the people that considered Sea The Stars better at a mile??

[toetoe]

The author wasn't there when I looked at it the first time. They must have just added it on.

I'm glad to see who wrote it though! I like knowing which authors I could trust.




Okay, this article is fine, but your man Shuback disparaged the sophomores of 2007 with reasoning to rival the worst seen on this board --- including my own !!!