Quality Road focuses on building stamina

[andymays]

http://www.drf.com/news/quality-road-focuses-building-stamina

Excerpt:

“We know that he’s blessed with a lot of talent and speed, what we’re trying to focus on is stretching him out to a mile and quarter,” Pletcher said afterward. “We’re trying to make sure we have him fit for that. I thought the three-eighths after the wire was exceptional on that track.”

[Turkoman]

http://www.drf.com/news/quality-road-focuses-building-stamina

Excerpt:

“We know that he’s blessed with a lot of talent and speed, what we’re trying to focus on is stretching him out to a mile and quarter,” Pletcher said afterward. “We’re trying to make sure we have him fit for that. I thought the three-eighths after the wire was exceptional on that track.”

I still feel he will come up short in the BCC. Just my opinion.

[joanied]

I still feel he will come up short in the BCC. Just my opinion.

me too.

[WinterTriangle]

He's a nice horse, hard not to like.

Is seems a tad odd that you would start building stamina into a horse at age 4, less than 30 days before the biggest race of their life, before you retire them off the track. :confused:

Seems like something that a patient trainer would have started earlier in the horse's life? Maybe QR has enough innate talent to get something out of it and will surprise us.

[Robert Goren]

I still feel he will come up short in the BCC. Just my opinion.You can bet on it, I know I will. When fast horses work in relatively slow times, it is sign something is wrong. Trainers have a whole list of excuses ready. Building stamina is one of them.

[joanied]

Seems a lot are thinking he'll come up short...I agree with Winter T, that he's a horse you just have to like...I was so excited about him, thought he could be one of the ones...he's talented and is a gorgeous animal...but I think once he hits the 1/8th pole, he'll be done...he won't have that late kick to fight off the closers.
I do hope he runs well, though...but, since he's going to be sent to the shed, I guess I really don't care...wish they'd keep him in training..oh, well...it's a done deal!!

[Turkoman]

My personal opinion is that Blame, Lookin At Lucky, and Zenyatta are all better suited for the 10f distance.

Turkoman

[joanied]

My personal opinion is that Blame, Lookin At Lucky, and Zenyatta are all better suited for the 10f distance.

Turkoman

No doubt about it...and it wouldn't surprise me if those three are the win, place & show at the wire. If I had my way, it'd be Zen, Lucky, Blame...1,2,3:jump:

[Tom]

I don't think sitting on the shelf for 8 weeks is any way to get ready for 10 furlongs, when you aren't really suited to it....QR seems like a total throw out to me.

[Turkoman]

I don't think sitting on the shelf for 8 weeks is any way to get ready for 10 furlongs, when you aren't really suited to it....QR seems like a total throw out to me.

Yes, exactly. Years ago, he would have had to slug it out in the Jockey Club Gold Cup. It's obvious they were avoiding that race.

Turkoman

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes, exactly. Years ago, he would have had to slug it out in the Jockey Club Gold Cup. It's obvious they were avoiding that race.

TurkomanAvoiding races and racing only a handful of times a year are one of the reasons this sport has the reputation it does these days.

Unfortunately, the handlers of the biggest name in the game today have done nothing to right that tremendous wrong. At least they brought her back to race this year instead of retiring her, so I will give them that...

[Turkoman]

Avoiding races and racing only a handful of times a year are one of the reasons this sport has the reputation it does these days.

Unfortunately, the handlers of the biggest name in the game today have done nothing to right that tremendous wrong. At least they brought her back to race this year instead of retiring her, so I will give them that...

Yeah, that really sucks. What a shame.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yeah, that really sucks. What a shame.Despite your sarcastic reply, what you write is 100% true. It does suck, and it is a shame, because if Zenyatta is all that she is hyped up to be, it really does suck that the sport has been denied a once-in-a-lifetime display of shock and awe.

Yeah, I know...the 19 in a row is supposed to be my shock and awe, chin on the floor moment.

The game used to be about thinking you have the fastest horse and going out and proving it. Winning one big race against a field where the majority made their name on another surface does not prove much.

So yeah, you're right. It does suck.

[Turkoman]

Sarcastic reply? I'm one of the very many who is disappointed she never faced tougher competition around the country. In fact, I'm not excited at all with the trend developing these days in general.

[mountainman]

I won't say this sounds like desperation, but it's sure not a ringing endorsement from QR's trainer. Not digging the vibe from this at all.

[ArlJim78]

Same here, I'm not keen on a horse going into the classic off a long break during which they feel the need to work on stamina.

[Dahoss9698]

When fast horses work in relatively slow times, it is sign something is wrong.

Curlin always worked slow. I think workouts and times are one of the most common misconceptions bettors and especially people on message boards get wrong.

First, unless you are there in person or watch a workout on tape, you have no idea how a horse worked. Times aren't nearly as important as how the horse works. ANy horse can go out a work a bullet, if they are urged throughout. But wouldn't the horse that isn't urged at all, but works a few ticks slower working better? Unless you actually see this stuff, you just don't know.

I don't think Quality Road can win the Classic if there are other speeds in the race. I'm also not crazy about the chances of horses going into the BC off two month layoffs (Boys at Toscanova, Stay Thirsty, etc). But, with Quality Road, who has run really well off the layoff, I get it. A few weeks ago I thought he had a shot if the race came up paceless. Until the entries are out we won't know how it's going to look. But he's pretty good when he has his mind on running and I don't put it past Plecther to have him at his best in the Classic.

[joanied]

Staying with the thread title, and not getting into more Zenyatta campaign stuff...
Pletcher will have QR ready...but how he thinks he's going to put stamina into the colt by continuously working him 5 f is beyond me...especially with so many weeks between his last race and the BC.
I sure would have found a race for him a few weeks out from the BC...and I'd sure be putting some longer works into him...and I'd be galloping him two miles a day...then just before BC day, I'd blow him out maybe an 8th...

[Dahoss9698]

This sort of reminds me of last year when Pletcher's training was questioned because he didn't hug his horses enough. Interesting how some get away with it, while others would be called every name in the book for such comments.

[joanied]

What comment? That it's my opinion you won't put stamina into a horse by working nothing but 5f every week!

[Dahoss9698]

What comment? That it's my opinion you won't put stamina into a horse by working nothing but 5f every week!

When is the last time you trained a horse to run 10 furlongs?

[Robert Fischer]

When is the last time you trained a horse to run 10 furlongs?






















I thought she did a heck of a job of it in post #18 :liar:

[Bettowin]

I watched the Seabiscuite movie and I agree, he can't build enough stamina with 5F works:)

[riskman]

This sort of reminds me of last year when Pletcher's training was questioned because he didn't hug his horses enough. Interesting how some get away with it, while others would be called every name in the book for such comments.

Now a trainer can't be questioned. Interesting how some can get away with it always being right.

[Dahoss9698]

Now a trainer can't be questioned. Interesting how some can get away with it always being right.

Who said a trainer can't be questioned, besides you? If you actually read what I said, it reminded me of about a year ago. Same horse and his flipping out in the gate was suggested to be the product of not enough hugs. Now the same trainer apparently doesn't know how to get a horse ready for a 10 furlong race.

Hopefully he reads the forum so he can figure it out.

[dccprez]

Quality Road.....

...Coronado's Quest!

(I made this observation earlier in the year and submitted it to a local cable TV show - "Down The Stretch". The wonderful Mr. Mike Veitch addressed it on the air and did a nifty/quick comparison of the two runners. It was neat!)

Both of these "guys" were/are stunningly beautiful, exceptinoally athletic-looking, "on-the-muscle" animals. Both were on-the-lead, fast runners that could/can carry the speed at least 9F. Both were/are head cases and require(d) kid-glove handling. Grade 1 winners both, their resumes' are comparable (Haskell/Travers for CQ, Donn/Woodward for QR).

...and CQ ran a bang-up 5th in what I consider the greatest BC Classic of all time - the 1998 version.

Perhaps "past is prologue"???

[Cardus]

My personal opinion is that Blame, Lookin At Lucky, and Zenyatta are all better suited for the 10f distance.

Turkoman

Agreed.

Cardus

[Cardus]

I doubt that Pletcher woke up a few days ago and thought, "Holy Sh-t, the Classic is a mile-and-a-quarter! I'd better start building his stamina now!"

[GatetoWire]

Seems to me that I heard this same talk before Ghostzapper went and dominated the BC field at Lone Star.

A speed horse...no shot to get the distance blah blah blah

Ghostzapper had a 4F in 48 in late Sept followed by a 5F in 1:00 followed by 2 consecutive 6F works and then a 5F Bullet in 59.3 in October.

Layoffs may not be a big deal either.....7 horses have won the Classic after 40+ day layoff. Invasor had not run since the Whitney and dominated.

I am not sure how good QR might be??

His best effort might be very hard to defeat.

Pletcher certainly thinks that he will be ready for the Classic and that will be enough for me.

[Turkoman]

Seems to me that I heard this same talk before Ghostzapper went and dominated the BC field at Lone Star.

A speed horse...no shot to get the distance blah blah blah

Ghostzapper had a 4F in 48 in late Sept followed by a 5F in 1:00 followed by 2 consecutive 6F works and then a 5F Bullet in 59.3 in October.

Layoffs may not be a big deal either.....7 horses have won the Classic after 40+ day layoff. Invasor had not run since the Whitney and dominated.

I am not sure how good QR might be??

His best effort might be very hard to defeat.

Pletcher certainly thinks that he will be ready for the Classic and that will be enough for me.

So the way you're talking, I assume you're betting him?

[FenceBored]

I doubt that Pletcher woke up a few days ago and thought, "Holy Sh-t, the Classic is a mile-and-a-quarter! I'd better start building his stamina now!"

Agreed, but that was the impression given by the DRF article that started the thread.

The task of preparing Quality Road to get the 1 1/4 miles of next month’s Breeders’ Cup Classic was picked up in earnest Sunday morning at Belmont Park as the multiple Grade 1-winning colt worked five furlongs in company and then proceeded to gallop out an additional three-eighths of a mile.
-- http://www.drf.com/news/quality-road-focuses-building-stamina
There's sort of a 'I guess we better stop screwing around and get serious' feel to that sentence that probably didnt' go over to well with Pletcher and company.

[GatetoWire]

Maybe...depends on the odds.

I have been going over this race a lot and I think it is going to be very hard to separate the top contenders.

Blame, Looking at Lucky, Quality Road and Zenyatta are all very evenly matched.

Throw a sharp, fit Haynesfield in the mix and you have a very hard puzzle to crack.

I have been trying to keep a very open mind.....I would like to think that QR cannot get the distance but what if he can.

The race is going to be very good from a betting perspective because Zenyatta is going to be a tremendous underlay causing the rest of the field to be overlays.

What is QR goes off at 6 or 7-1???? He is going to be very hard not to play at that price.

[Turkoman]

Maybe...depends on the odds.

I have been going over this race a lot and I think it is going to be very hard to separate the top contenders.

Blame, Looking at Lucky, Quality Road and Zenyatta are all very evenly matched.

Throw a sharp, fit Haynesfield in the mix and you have a very hard puzzle to crack.

I have been trying to keep a very open mind.....I would like to think that QR cannot get the distance but what if he can.

The race is going to be very good from a betting perspective because Zenyatta is going to be a tremendous underlay causing the rest of the field to be overlays.

What is QR goes off at 6 or 7-1???? He is going to be very hard not to play at that price.

You better believe he's going off at 6-1 or higher. There's no way he'll get more betting action than the other three. That's for sure. So if you really feel he's got a shot, I think you won't be disappointed with the odds.

Turkoman

[GatetoWire]

You better believe he's going off at 6-1 or higher. There's no way he'll get more betting action than the other three. That's for sure. So if you really feel he's got a shot, I think you won't be disappointed with the odds.

Turkoman

That's what is going to be great about this race...If you don't like Z you have a chance to make a nice score.

Turkoman: What do you think the odds will be on the top 3?

I am thinking
Z at 2-1
Blame at 3-1
Looking at Lucky at 5-1
Quality Road 7-1
Haynesfield 10-1

[Turkoman]

That's what is going to be great about this race...If you don't like Z you have a chance to make a nice score.

Turkoman: What do you think the odds will be on the top 3?

I am thinking
Z at 2-1
Blame at 3-1
Looking at Lucky at 5-1
Quality Road 7-1
Haynesfield 10-1

You're probably right on the money with Zen. Because of Blame's last race, I think Lookin At Lucky will be bet down more. That's just my opinion.

[GatetoWire]

You're probably right on the money with Zen. Because of Blame's last race, I think Lookin At Lucky will be bet down more. That's just my opinion.


Yeah...you could be right

I am thinking Public Money on Z
Sharp money on Looking at Lucky
Price Hunters on Blame

Haynesfield and QR much higher because the prevailing thinking will be that neither can get the distance and beat the other 3

I am hoping that we have an honest (not too fast pace) and all 5 of them hit the stretch in good order to battle it out for HOY!!!

[Hank]

Staying with the thread title, and not getting into more Zenyatta campaign stuff...
Pletcher will have QR ready...but how he thinks he's going to put stamina into the colt by continuously working him 5 f is beyond me...especially with so many weeks between his last race and the BC.
I sure would have found a race for him a few weeks out from the BC...and I'd sure be putting some longer works into him...and I'd be galloping him two miles a day...then just before BC day, I'd blow him out maybe an 8th...

Todd is being very cagey here,He's trying to build stamina without dulling QR's speed, his primary weapon.;)

[PaceAdvantage]

Sarcastic reply? I'm one of the very many who is disappointed she never faced tougher competition around the country. In fact, I'm not excited at all with the trend developing these days in general.Then I tip my cap in apology to you sir. My bad.

[PaceAdvantage]

That's what is going to be great about this race...If you don't like Z you have a chance to make a nice score.

Turkoman: What do you think the odds will be on the top 3?

I am thinking
Z at 2-1
Blame at 3-1
Looking at Lucky at 5-1
Quality Road 7-1
Haynesfield 10-1I think Z goes off at less than 2-1.

[GatetoWire]

I think Z goes off at less than 2-1.

Really?

Do you think she will be Even?

There is no way she will be 9/5.

[Cholly]

As of today,William Hill is booking The Classic like this:

Lucky 4-1
Zen 4-1
Blame 6-1
Quality Road 8-1
Haynesfield 8-1

These boys having been doing it for awhile, and they're pretty sharp. They may drop her odds a point as the race nears, but I don't think there's any way in hell they'd be offering 4-1 on Zen if she'll be going off at 2-1 or less at post-time.

[Turkoman]

Then I tip my cap in apology to you sir. My bad.

No problem. Apology accepted.

[Turkoman]

I think Z goes off at less than 2-1.

Below 2-1 is very possible.

[Dahoss9698]

As of today,William Hill is booking The Classic like this:

Lucky 4-1
Zen 4-1
Blame 6-1
Quality Road 8-1
Haynesfield 8-1

These boys having been doing it for awhile, and they're pretty sharp. They may drop her odds a point as the race nears, but I don't think there's any way in hell they'd be offering 4-1 on Zen if she'll be going off at 2-1 or less at post-time.

I'll go on record right now that there is ZERO shot is more than 5/2 for the Classic.

[eastie]

Quality Road will be second choice. Not much doubt about it either. Zenyatta will be 3-1 or more.

[Dahoss9698]

Quality Road will be second choice. Not much doubt about it either. Zenyatta will be 3-1 or more.

You should quit while you are behind.

[Robert Goren]

I don't have a list of QR's workouts. How often does he go that slow? As general rule fast front runners work fast. There are exceptions, but when they break a pattern it usually is sign of a problem.

[Turkoman]

Quality Road will be second choice. Not much doubt about it either. Zenyatta will be 3-1 or more.

Do you seriously believe that Quality Road will get more betting action than Blame & Lookin At Lucky? That sure was one bold statement.

Turkoman

[eastie]

why wouldn't he ? check out the way he usually gets bet. I think he gets the distance too. My brother had 75-1 on him in Vegas for the derby. I ended up saving a ton of money cause he was part of the field in the first future pool , before the cat was out of the bag on him.

[the little guy]

why wouldn't he ? check out the way he usually gets bet. I think he gets the distance too. My brother had 75-1 on him in Vegas for the derby. I ended up saving a ton of money cause he was part of the field in the first future pool , before the cat was out of the bag on him.


I knew the real Eastie. Have you kidnapped him?

He was a nice guy....and he knew racing. You are neither.

[Robert Fischer]

Do you seriously believe that Quality Road will get more betting action than Blame & Lookin At Lucky? That sure was one bold statement.

Turkoman

I see where he's coming from... Quality Road is probably more popular than Blame. Popularity will be a factor, but I would guess they would be relatively close. I wouldn't be shocked if either were lower odds than the other, but if I had to wager, I go with Quality Road. Lookin at Lucky will be the wise-guy horse most likely.

Because of the nature of the favorite Zenyatta's running style, I view the race probable outcomes in terms of different scenarios that depend on how much the race favors closers, and how much frontrunners come back.

[Robert Goren]

I think second choice is a bit a high. Third or fourth choice is possible. Those high Beyers are bound to suck in some money.

[bks]

QR will be lower odds than Blame by a bit.

[Turkoman]

why wouldn't he ? check out the way he usually gets bet. I think he gets the distance too. My brother had 75-1 on him in Vegas for the derby. I ended up saving a ton of money cause he was part of the field in the first future pool , before the cat was out of the bag on him.

Because 10f is not his favorite distance, and also because of the stronger competition he will face. He has already come up short against Blame. In the Classic, he will have to face Blame once again, plus Zenyatta and Lookin At Lucky.

Turkoman

[eastie]

I knew the real Eastie. Have you kidnapped him?

He was a nice guy....and he knew racing. You are neither.

It's called mental illness from what they tell me. And while there is no cure, it can be treated. My friends are trying to get me that help. I hope it never happens to you. First year since 74 that i didn't make it up to Saratoga, if that tells you anything.

[Cholly]

I'll go on record right now that there is ZERO shot is more than 5/2 for the Classic.

I’d say it depends on who actually runs. My take on the William Hill line:

Their opinion is that, of the five listed at single digit odds, it is a certainty that at least one will drop before the race; and it is probable that at least two of the five will not be in the gate. That’d make for an interesting prop bet, wouldn’t it?

I was surprised to see they place Haynesfield in the same echelon as the other four. I wouldn’t think they’d receive much action on Haynesfield at 8-1, which suggests that he is the one they fear…probably has something to do with that quaint European tradition that you prep for a big race by winning a big race (not by winning the Indiana Derby).

At 4-1 on Zenyatta and 8-1 on Quality Road, they’re begging you to take those two. Tells me William Hill thinks their real odds are at least 6-1 and 10-1, respectively. And these particular British blokes happen to be muy listo.

[nearco]

He has already come up short against Blame. In the Classic, he will have to face Blame once again, plus Zenyatta and Lookin At Lucky.


Honest question here... does the 5lbs that QR spotted Blame in the Whitney not factor into any of this?
Seems like to me that you lose by a head with a 5lb impost, that if you met on level terms you'd be a couple of lengths the better horse.
I guess I'm not understanding the logic behind Blame being considered the better horse.

[cj]

Honest question here... does the 5lbs that QR spotted Blame in the Whitney not factor into any of this?
Seems like to me that you lose by a head with a 5lb impost, that if you met on level terms you'd be a couple of lengths the better horse.
I guess I'm not understanding the logic behind Blame being considered the better horse.

There was more to the day than weight. Quality Road set a leisurely pace and was still run down. Is Blame the better horse now? I don't know, but he certainly was that day even getting 5 pounds.

[joanied]

When is the last time you trained a horse to run 10 furlongs?

It ain't rocket science. From 8/22 to last Sunday, QR had worked five times...two at 4f and three at 5f. That is not, IMO, the way to train a horse into stamina for a 1 1/4 mile race...granted last Sunday they galloped him out another 3/8ths (I beleive that's what I read)...but it's just not enough, especially with a long layoff...yes, you want a 'fresh' horse for the Classic, but you also don't want a horse that's going to be short...and, IMO, that's what will happen...and now it's getting close to BCday, so they haven't got a lot of time, IMO, a good strong 7f work would do that colt a lot of good (something they should have started doing a few weeks ago), at least give him very long, strong gallops a couple of times a week.

I'm not saying I don't think Pletcher is a good trainer, I'm just saying I beleive they are taking the wrong approach...and that they waited too long to begin trying to get stamina into him.

[cj]

It ain't rocket science. From 8/22 to last Sunday, QR had worked five times...two at 4f and three at 5f. That is not, IMO, the way to train a horse into stamina for a 1 1/4 mile race...granted last Sunday they galloped him out another 3/8ths (I beleive that's what I read)...but it's just not enough, especially with a long layoff...yes, you want a 'fresh' horse for the Classic, but you also don't want a horse that's going to be short...and, IMO, that's what will happen...and now it's getting close to BCday, so they haven't got a lot of time, IMO, a good strong 7f work would do that colt a lot of good (something they should have started doing a few weeks ago), at least give him very long, strong gallops a couple of times a week.

I'm not saying I don't think Pletcher is a good trainer, I'm just saying I beleive they are taking the wrong approach...and that they waited too long to begin trying to get stamina into him.

It is actually kind of a myth that long, slow works build stamina.

[Dahoss9698]

It ain't rocket science. From 8/22 to last Sunday, QR had worked five times...two at 4f and three at 5f. That is not, IMO, the way to train a horse into stamina for a 1 1/4 mile race...granted last Sunday they galloped him out another 3/8ths (I beleive that's what I read)...but it's just not enough, especially with a long layoff...yes, you want a 'fresh' horse for the Classic, but you also don't want a horse that's going to be short...and, IMO, that's what will happen...and now it's getting close to BCday, so they haven't got a lot of time, IMO, a good strong 7f work would do that colt a lot of good (something they should have started doing a few weeks ago), at least give him very long, strong gallops a couple of times a week.

I'm not saying I don't think Pletcher is a good trainer, I'm just saying I beleive they are taking the wrong approach...and that they waited too long to begin trying to get stamina into him.

He can either "get" 10 furlongs or he can't. If you really think Pletcher woke up last week and thought, "crap, I better try and build some stamina into QR, the Breeders Cup is coming up," I have a bridge you might be interested in.

As I said, hopefully Pletcher reads the board. Apparently he needs help learning how to train.

[Robert Fischer]

If I was training quality Road i would be doing a lot more.
pletcher needs to get Quality Road in the water-exerciser
alternate 2F maximal sprints(with parachute resistance)
2mile jogs with Larry Jones as exercise rider
then in 7 days a 6F from gate/2Furlong gallop out/then ask again for another furlong sprint(up the backstretch)
6 days off (light gallops and ice)
get him in a turf race
work him inside horses Todd.
light gallops up to 3days before BC
(work on dressage steps and lots of love)
Séance and channel Charlie Whittingham

[Turkoman]

[QUOTE=Dahoss9698]He can either "get" 10 furlongs or he can't.

Nothing truer than what you've said. Either he has it or doesn't. I'm not buying that stamina-building nonsense either.

Turkoman

[keithw84]

This isn't an area I know much about. How would prepping for a 10f race differ from prepping for a 9f race?

[Tom]

So horses just "get" 10 furlongs without a foundation?

[TommyCh]

With the "chicks-and-Southern-Californians-dig-her" factor, Zenyatta could be a really short price. Also depending on who drops out. Looks like Pletch has a pretty fragile horse on his hands and is acting accordingly. And, will they scratch Zenyatta if it's sloppy?

[Dahoss9698]

So horses just "get" 10 furlongs without a foundation?

Who said that?

Do you really think Pletcher doesn't know how to build a foundation into a horse? He beat Curlin going 12 furlongs with a filly. He's a lot of things, but he's also an exceptional horseman.

The point is, he's either going to be good enough, or not. Working 5 furlongs, instead of 7 isn't going to make a difference. Foundation is built over time, not in a few weeks.

[joanied]

He can either "get" 10 furlongs or he can't. If you really think Pletcher woke up last week and thought, "crap, I better try and build some stamina into QR, the Breeders Cup is coming up," I have a bridge you might be interested in.

As I said, hopefully Pletcher reads the board. Apparently he needs help learning how to train.

Maybe just for once, you could stop being the sarcastic person that you are...of course the colt can 'either get 10f or not'...DUH..what a brilliant statement...and it seems that maybe Pletcher did just wake up and decide to build stamina in this colt, considering it's what he said after the last work...time to get some stamina into QR...which is ridiculous because you can't get that done in the time he has...or else, Pletcher is already building in an excuse for the horse.
I never implied he isn't a good trainer...simply gave my opinion as to how I'd train a horse that really isn't up for the distance...
you, apparently need to stop putting words in my post that aren't there

I have a bridge you might be interested in too...it's a bridge to nowhere.

Oh, Rags to Riches was bred for the distance...it's in her blood...and don't forget, she just beat Curlin by half a head, if that...it was her guts that got Curlin beat that day...not saying she wasn't trained in good fashion...again, I never said Pletcher isn't a world class trainer...but Rags wasn't going to give up that day...and on that day, she was a better horse than Curlin... horses winning races, as you should know, has more to it than training.

[Dahoss9698]

Maybe just for once, you could stop being the sarcastic person that you are...of course the colt can 'either get 10f or not'...DUH..what a brilliant statement...and it seems that maybe Pletcher did just wake up and decide to build stamina in this colt, considering it's what he said after the last work...time to get some stamina into QR...which is ridiculous because you can't get that done in the time he has...or else, Pletcher is already building in an excuse for the horse.
I never implied he isn't a good trainer...simply gave my opinion as to how I'd train a horse that really isn't up for the distance...
you, apparently need to stop putting words in my post that aren't there

I have a bridge you might be interested in too...it's a bridge to nowhere.

Oh, Rags to Riches was bred for the distance...it's in her blood...and don't forget, she just beat Curlin by half a head, if that...it was her guts that got Curlin beat that day...not saying she wasn't trained in good fashion...again, I never said Pletcher isn't a world class trainer...but Rags wasn't going to give up that day...and on that day, she was a better horse than Curlin... horses winning races, as you should know, has more to it than training.

The point is, this stuff dates back to last year with you. Last year QR freaked out in the gate because he didn't get enough hugs. This year Pletcher isn't training him the right way.

It's just funny to me. But when it comes to brilliance I obviously bow to you. What's the forecast for the Travers next year?

[Bullet Plane]

I think the problem with QR in his race against Blame- was he ran early- too slow. His natural ability is front runner/ early pace. By pulling back on him, he loses a lot of early zip- and gets zapped out for the late going. You have to give the horse his head and let him run his race.

On the other hand, obviously, if he goes too fast early- he is also done. So, it's a balancing act. I think they pulled back too much last race. Hopefully, they will let him run his race next out. I think he can handle 10f and might be a good bet at odds of 8-1 and up.

I'm hoping he goes off at fourth choice or so. Maybe get some decent odds on him.

[cj]

I think the problem with QR in his race against Blame- was he ran early- too slow. His natural ability is front runner/ early pace. By pulling back on him, he loses a lot of early zip- and gets zapped out for the late going. You have to give the horse his head and let him run his race.

On the other hand, obviously, if he goes too fast early- he is also done. So, it's a balancing act. I think they pulled back too much last race. Hopefully, they will let him run his race next out. I think he can handle 10f and might be a good bet at odds of 8-1 and up.

I'm hoping he goes off at fourth choice or so. Maybe get some decent odds on him.

I really don't buy this. He wasn't pulled back. He relaxed nicely on the front end. There really is no such thing as going too slow on an open lead if the horse is relaxed, in my opinion.

[joanied]

The point is, this stuff dates back to last year with you. Last year QR freaked out in the gate because he didn't get enough hugs. This year Pletcher isn't training him the right way.

It's just funny to me. But when it comes to brilliance I obviously bow to you. What's the forecast for the Travers next year?

Oh, give me a break. Last year everyone here was tossing around theories on QR's freak out...and I put the blame on the helicopter above the gate...don't go telling me I said Pletcher doesn't hug the horse enough...where do you get this stuff!!

I give an opinion on how I think a horse should be trained up to a distance race and you start your jabs.

You think the long range weather forcasts are a joke...go tell that to the 1,000's of farmers in this country that depend on them.

Maybe YOUR brilliance is such that you feel you have to throw punches at some folks here on the board, and for some weird reason, I'm your number one target...

get over it!!

[GatetoWire]

It ain't rocket science. From 8/22 to last Sunday, QR had worked five times...two at 4f and three at 5f. That is not, IMO, the way to train a horse into stamina for a 1 1/4 mile race...granted last Sunday they galloped him out another 3/8ths (I beleive that's what I read)...but it's just not enough, especially with a long layoff...yes, you want a 'fresh' horse for the Classic, but you also don't want a horse that's going to be short...and, IMO, that's what will happen...and now it's getting close to BCday, so they haven't got a lot of time, IMO, a good strong 7f work would do that colt a lot of good (something they should have started doing a few weeks ago), at least give him very long, strong gallops a couple of times a week.

I'm not saying I don't think Pletcher is a good trainer, I'm just saying I beleive they are taking the wrong approach...and that they waited too long to begin trying to get stamina into him.

Joanied:
I am not sure history is on your side with this post either.

If you look at the last 10 Classic winners only Pleasantly Perfect and Tiznow at works in the last 6 weeks that were greater than 6f

Pleasantly Perfect worked 7f in late Sept before he did 3 shorter works in Oct

Tiznow's last work in 2001 was a mile in 1:35 3/5

All of the other winners since 2001 worked 5f and 6f regularly over the past 6 weeks before the BC. Some even threw in a 4f work during the last 6 weeks

Many of these winners had spotty or no history of success at 10f but this work schedule got them ready to win at 10f

[Dahoss9698]

Oh, give me a break. Last year everyone here was tossing around theories on QR's freak out...and I put the blame on the helicopter above the gate...don't go telling me I said Pletcher doesn't hug the horse enough...where do you get this stuff!!

I give an opinion on how I think a horse should be trained up to a distance race and you start your jabs.

You think the long range weather forcasts are a joke...go tell that to the 1,000's of farmers in this country that depend on them.

Maybe YOUR brilliance is such that you feel you have to throw punches at some folks here on the board, and for some weird reason, I'm your number one target...

get over it!!

I'm sorry that you get offended when someone disagrees with you, but it's going to happen. Give me a break with the number one target stuff. You're on a horse racing board that resembles the track. If you can't take a little sarcasm, which you also give back, put me on ignore (like you said you were months ago). Here is a post of yours from a few days after the BC last year.

I guess we have a couple of threads going on Quality Road's freak out...I posted in the other thread, but IMO...first of all, QR last spring was an awesome looking animal...in the post parade for the Classic, I thought...is this the same horse? He looks rough.
Todd Pletcher came up under Lukas, and IMO, he really took to the business end of training, but, also, IMO, he can't train a lick...and he has no insight into a horse's mind...and I'd bet he never goes in a stall to give a horse a hug...his horses are numbers, not individual creatures that thrive on affection, affectionate pats.
He said he schooled QR at Belmont before shipping to SA because the colt has a history of bad behavior at the gate...again, this man has no insight into the mind of a horse...of course he schooled well at Belmont...every sound and sight is familiar to him, it's his 'home' and his 'comfort zone'...Pletcher said they even tried to spook QR into bad behavior while schooling him...now there ya go, Todd...give the horse a few more bad memories :bang: ...
then they get to SA and guess what...no schooling...a new place, new sights & sounds, and no schooling...brilliant:rolleyes:

This horse needs a break...he needs help from a person that knows how a horse thinks...a 'horse whisperer' (I hate that term, but I guess it's the best we have)...someone that understands the horse, thinks like one and has the patience and care to properly school QR.

I don't know why his owners took him from Jerken's...but if he was still with that man, he'd look fabulous and would have someone working with him everyday to help him with his gate issues.

Whoever at SA allowed that chopper to hover overhead, should have his head examined...again...think like a horse, folks...big bad boogie man over head...and I can't run anywhere...this big steel thing is in front of me and behind me is a small area with rails...can't run that way either...the area behind that gate needs to be big enough so a horse feels free...and there should never be some damned 'bird' hovering overhead...I think Zenyatta was nervous about that thing above and that is why she also hesitated going in...and I suppose the gate crew did the best they could, but it was obvious they were in a hurry to load and one thing you can't do with a nervous horse is rush him...and another thing...you can't fool a smart horse with a blindfold, and as soon as I saw them put that on, I said to my husband, there's a good chance that's gonna make this situation worse...DUH!!!

This colt has a ton of talent, but he needs time...my advice to ol' Todd is to send him to the training center for a while...he is not going to forget last Saturday...so it's going to take the right folks and some time to get him straight...something Todd isn't about to do...he's a business man, not a trainer.
On to the Cigar Mile and to hell with the consequences




Those are YOUR words not mine. So this year apparently he doesn't know how to get a horse ready for a 10 furlong race. Maybe you're the one who needs to get over it already.

[Bullet Plane]

Joanied-

as many other on this site have said- you make some interesting points. Maybe Todd will have a few tricks up his sleeve. I sure would like to see QR bag the Classic. I have been a big fan of the horse all year long.

[Show Me the Wire]

If I was training quality Road i would be doing a lot more.
pletcher needs to get Quality Road in the water-exerciser
alternate 2F maximal sprints(with parachute resistance)
2mile jogs with Larry Jones as exercise rider
then in 7 days a 6F from gate/2Furlong gallop out/then ask again for another furlong sprint(up the backstretch)
6 days off (light gallops and ice)
get him in a turf race
work him inside horses Todd.
light gallops up to 3days before BC
(work on dressage steps and lots of love)
Séance and channel Charlie Whittingham

More than likely he will be using the hyperbaric chamber in conjuction with the 5 furlong works to get QR ready.

This is the new age of training, in which you can put a foundation in a horse with chemicals and other methods without exercise.

[keithw84]

More than likely he will be using the hyperbaric chamber in conjuction with the 5 furlong works to get QR ready.

This is the new age of training, in which you can put a foundation in a horse with chemicals and other methods without exercise.

Don't forget the tape he listens to as he falls asleep each night with a voice repeating, "I can get 10 furlongs... I can get 10 furlongs..."

[Turkoman]

Don't forget the tape he listens to as he falls asleep each night with a voice repeating, "I can get 10 furlongs... I can get 10 furlongs..."

Is that part of modern training also?

[WinterTriangle]

Glad QR is in the race. He will provide some pace for whoever wins this thing.

FWIW, I read somewhere that Draynay has him to win. :) And is a Zen-hater to boot.

There are other horses who may be going in the classic that nobody is talking about, off the radar, and who have a shot, IMHO.

[andymays]

I have no idea who is scheduled to go in the Classic.

Doesn't Pletcher have a big shot to control the pace with Quality Road sitting second?

[horses4courses]

After Haynesfield and QR, I don't see alot of pace in the BCC.

I'm looking at a list of top candidates, without PPs, so I could be missing something. However, if one of those two should miss the race, the other may get an easy lead.

Quality Road, though, imo won't stay 10 furlongs unless he absolutely jogs the first three quarters. It's possible, but I don't see that happening.

[andymays]

After Haynesfield and QR, I don't see alot of pace in the BCC.

I'm looking at a list of top candidates, without PPs, so I could be missing something. However, if one of those two should miss the race, the other may get an easy lead.

Quality Road, though, imo won't stay 10 furlongs unless he absolutely jogs the first three quarters. It's possible, but I don't see that happening.

Quality Road can sit second. They might prefer him to sit second. For some reason I though Haynsfield was trained by Pletcher too but that was my mistake in post #80.

[Turkoman]

Does anyone have an estimate on how many horses will actually run in the Classic? I've been thinking it should be around ten horses, but not really sure.

Turkoman

[horses4courses]

I have a list of 14 possibles.
Obviously, no guarantee they will all run, and it's possible others may show up.
I'd be surprised, though, if less than 12 horses go to post.

Lookin At Lucky
Zenyatta
Quality Road
Blame
Haynesfield
Etched
Espoir City
Rip Van Winkle
Morning Line
Richard's Kid
Misremembered
Fly Down
Gitano Hernando
Pleasant Prince

Good luck!

[Turkoman]

Hey, thanks for the info.

[Robert Goren]

IMO, For QR to get the distance in the classic a bunch of horses are going to have to scratch.

[andymays]

IMO, For QR to get the distance in the classic a bunch of horses are going to have to scratch.

A lot depends on how the surface is playing on the day of the race.

[Turkoman]

Now Musket Man will be there too.

[joanied]

In reference to post #74, where Dahoss uses my quote from last year (it's so long I didn't feel the need to add it to this)...

HOLY$HIT:blush: :eek: :bang: I can't beleive I wrote all that stuff...my bad, and my apologies...what was I thinking:confused: ...ah, well, I said it, and I'm not affraid to admit that post is way over the top...even for me;) ...hate it when something comes back to bite you on the a$$:D ...

I will stick with my theory of training QR for the 1 1/4 mile, though...it's only my opinion on it, and comes from my years watching and listening to some of our greatest trainers...fact is, horses today are trained too lightly...and IMO, that is one reason so many get hurt and or come up short in races...and time between races is usually too many weeks also...my opinion...horses know the difference between a morning work and a race, and regardless of how they work, it's not the same as being in a race...IMO, if they worked more and raced more, we'd have less breakdowns and ouchie horses out there...but, I suppose that's another discussion.

At any rate...I said what I said last year, and if I could take it back I would...but, I can't...so for now I am just :blush:

:)

[Jasonm921]

I think Z goes off at less than 2-1.



I'm expecting her to be a huge favorite in this race....1-2 perhaps. I'm not a believer so I will be looking elsewhere for better odds which should be plentiful.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm expecting her to be a huge favorite in this race....1-2 perhaps. I'm not a believer so I will be looking elsewhere for better odds which should be plentiful.I don't think she goes anywhere near that low a price. There will too much other talent in the race for that to happen.

I see 8/5 on the low end, and 2/1 on the high end. It's a tight range, but that's how I see it.

[bks]

If Zenyatta goes off 1/2, you can be sure she'll win.

I know this because I'll make a significant bet on someone else.

[Jasonm921]

I don't think she goes anywhere near that low a price. There will too much other talent in the race for that to happen.

I see 8/5 on the low end, and 2/1 on the high end. It's a tight range, but that's how I see it.


Never underestimate sentimental money.

[Turkoman]

I don't think 1-2 is very realistic.

[bcgreg]

A lot depends on how the surface is playing on the day of the race.

First time mentioned in this thread, I think, and absolutely spot on...

Long stretch, combined with whatever the track crew does, anything can happen. Think back to the 07 BC...

Regards,
bcgreg

[horses4courses]

I don't think she goes anywhere near that low a price. There will too much other talent in the race for that to happen.

I see 8/5 on the low end, and 2/1 on the high end. It's a tight range, but that's how I see it.

That's how i read it, too.
The only way she goes off much lower is if one, or more, of the next three top contenders (LAL, QR, Blame) does not get in the gate.

[dccprez]

As a general rule I try not to criticize any trainer's approach; I've never trained (heck, I've never even sat on a thoroughbred) so I'm out of line if I suggest that one method is worse/better for a particular horse.

That said, I was conditioned to look for solid 5F workout lines just prior to a race. For whatever reason that distance (5F) was considered to be the "preferable distance" for putting both a little speed into a runner AND encouraging stamina without taking away from what is "in the tank".

Who knows if it is sound logic. I've been burned as often as I've cashed using that as a benchmark.

I believe that QR can get the 10F. But I DON'T think he gets it fast enough t o beat some of the other potential runners without having too many things break in his favor.

Zen can get 10F standing on her head. And in a time that would (seem) to be faster than QR even on his best day.

Blame...I really think that he is about equal to QR at the Classic distance; he'll get 9F or 9.5F faster, by a hair, but that last 1/16 may be beyond his best range.

It would seems to me that LAL would have just a little more speed than the two aforementioned males for the distance. In the interest of full disclosure, he's been on my radar for the Classic since May.

I also like Fly Down...He's done the distance twice, not particularly fast, but finished strongly in both efforts. Zito has his runners primed for the big days AND the distance. So...

Haynesfield can take all the money that's available. Outside of Belmont Park I believe that he is a throw-out.

I'll be counting on a Zen/LAL/Fly Down mix for the Exacta with Blame and QR in the mix to complete the Tri/super. I also am scratching my head about Espoir City as he's been pointd to this race for some time AND he can clearly get the distance. Bombs-away.

Of course we need to see how they train at CD over the next few weeks (if, in fact, the do train there). CD can be quirky and we've watched many quality runners spin their wheels over the surface (Skip Away, anyone?).

[Robert Fischer]

another way to look at the comments is that Pletcher expects another peak in performance, similar to when he was moved up for the Donn, and Met.

[Jasonm921]

I'm expecting her to be a huge favorite in this race....1-2 perhaps. I'm not a believer so I will be looking elsewhere for better odds which should be plentiful.


Never underestimate sentimental money.

[PaceAdvantage]

Never underestimate sentimental money.Yup. I didn't think it would be that intense. She actually drifted up to even money late. But still way below what I thought she would be.

[Turkoman]

Yup. I didn't think it would be that intense. She actually drifted up to even money late. But still way below what I thought she would be.

Before Friday, I never thought she would be bet down to below 8-5 or so.

[broadreach]

QR was very disappointing, already cooked at the 1/2 mile.

[Tom]

Good thing he built up his stamina going in.

[joanied]

Maybe a couple of those 7F works would have been a benefit in building stamina...although, IMO, QR is a fast and talented colt...he just hasn't got any heart.

[bks]

I was also surprised she went off near even money. Still, the odds on the true contenders were not much different than expected. The distortion was mostly limited to the fringe players.

5-1 on Blame was very nice, but he figured to be about 7/2 or 4-1 on merit. LAL was a bit of an underlay, I thought. Only Quality Road's odds seemed way higher than expected (well, Haynesfield too, and Fly Down as well, but the others had no real shot).

[JustRalph]

Good thing he built up his stamina going in.

maybe they were using him up, the way he ran, I suspect a problem or a very very tired horse at the end of a long year..............

[Tom]

Ralph, it's like the joke about the Olympic Marathon runner who comes in dead last. He laments that he spent 4 year in hard training to come in last - he could have sat in bars for 4 years and done as good. :D