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sq764
09-09-2003, 10:45 PM
I still don't get how people can pay $100+ a month for data only..

I see some of these programs out there for $200-$500 or more and then you have to pay $1000+ a year for data.

Is this data that much more accurate than Bris or TSN data? Does it have that much more crucial information??

GameTheory
09-09-2003, 10:56 PM
If you pay $100 or so for HDW data, you get all tracks everyday, which makes it cheaper than most other plans, with the exception of the TSN $59/mo unlimited special, which I think is the absolute cheapest.

Or you could just download & parse the charts like I do and get 100% of your data for free. Can't beat that.

Zaf
09-09-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by GameTheory
Or you could just download & parse the charts like I do and get 100% of your data for free. Can't beat that.

True GT,

But the average guy doesn't have the database / computer knowledge to do that. Parse the charts, make a database, and then spit it out again in the form of PP's.

I'm lucky to understand excel.

ZAFONIC

GameTheory
09-10-2003, 12:35 AM
Yeah, that's the rub. You have to make up for it in man-hours maintaining the database...

andicap
09-10-2003, 11:32 AM
It works if you buy the data instead of the DRF and you play several tracks.

It works if you think the data is more accurate than BRIS.

It works if it has features -- like HDW -- like track profiles that save you time and give you information you don't have to research yourself.

It works if you bet enough that that $100 won't put a big crimp in your ROI.

It works if you're a hobbyist and it saves you a ton of time and you enjoy working with the data like I do (not a db person)

It works even if you don't have a database (I don't) but you want to have good, solid information at your fingertips very quickly that's put together in a cohesive,intelligent manner.

It works if you can get the software programmer to do a custom program for yourself at a reasonable price that will tailor the data to your way of playing so that it takes 5 minutes to understand a race instead of 15. Assumbing I look at 6-7 races on a card seriously, that enables me to look at 3 tracks in less than 2 hours.

having that amount of data at my fingertips has led to down various intriguing paths of new handicapping techniques that are easier to investigate with software programs. The $100 fee provides me with enough information to examine for whatever tracks I want.

The $100 gives me access to every chart on my computer without having to save mounds of paper in my office that is probably a fire hazard.

Speed Figure
09-10-2003, 03:37 PM
Andicap,

What program are you using this data with?

andicap
09-10-2003, 05:30 PM
I joined the HTR set because I felt its figures would be more accurate than
BRIS' (to me they are), and it's an easy program to work with, even without
being a database person.
I have about a million things I want to experiment with using a custom program Ken Massa is writing for new that will speed up my basic
handicapping by 70%.
My goal all along has been to get to where I can look at a race inside of 5 minutes -- with the exception of those complicated turf races that provide the best value -- and find my value picks.

VetScratch
09-10-2003, 06:19 PM
Even casual players who might spend $14.00 for two tracks per day with BRIS are getting off cheap compared to daily costs for golfing or attending MLB, NFL, or NBA games.

Within the next year, however, I predict that vertical integration and industry consolidation will make it possible for anyone whose wagering averages $500 per day to get all data, software, toteboard, and online wagering free of charge (for as many tracks as you want).

For avid simulcast players, $500 per day would make this a good deal.

VetScratch
09-10-2003, 07:09 PM
For the sake of argument, let's say that profit goals for serious players are $20K/year for part-time players and $100K/year for full-time players.

------ANNUAL WAGER TOTALS
ROI PART-TIME FULL-TIME
5% $400K $2000K
10% $200K $1000K
15% $150K $750K
20% $100K $500K

I think serious players who spend $500 - $1000 per year on one of the top-notch handicapping packages are getting a good deal.

It doesn't take much improvement to justify the cost. If you think software will improve your game, you have to pay for it one way or another, as a separate item or bundled in download costs.

Tom
09-10-2003, 09:07 PM
OK, so if you bet $5 a race, would you pass up a hot dog at the track because it costs $3? That is 80% of one bet.
Now, if you bet $200 a race, then the $100 a month is really only half of one bet. So, by comparison, a monthly subsription to HDW is cheaper than a hot dog!
:rolleyes:

VetScratch
09-10-2003, 11:56 PM
Tom, how right you are! The folks who work at racetrack food concessions just shake their heads in amazement when they hear bitching about data costs from players who insist on fresh truffles from the Sainte-Alvère market or fresh abalone from the Boso Peninsula. Go figure!

MikeDee
09-11-2003, 05:08 AM
i don't even know what a racing form costs anymore it has been since long since I bought one. But if you go to the track everyday and buy 2 of em, so you can get the tracks you want you are probably spending more then a $100 a month to get your "data".

sq764
09-11-2003, 09:03 AM
well, yes and no..

If you are printing out 2 forms (or 4 tracks) at home, you are racking up some ink and paper costs too.

I print out most of my programs from home and use the ink replacement kits.. I still go through a ton of ink just doing that..

JustRalph
09-11-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by sq764
well, yes and no..

If you are printing out 2 forms (or 4 tracks) at home, you are racking up some ink and paper costs too.

I print out most of my programs from home and use the ink replacement kits.. I still go through a ton of ink just doing that..

You must be using an Inkjet........get a laser printer..........

I have my costs down to about 2.5-3 cents a page. I buy in bulk. Toner and Paper in bulk. I print out every race I play from Equisim. Depending what I want to take to the track, or Race book, The ES program can offer me a ton of database style stuff and more. It can be as big as 80 pages for 10 races. I sometimes print a fifty page card. Carry it to vegas with me. But I have $1.50 or maybe $2.50 in the fifty pages. I figure if it was $3.00 bucks a card I still don't sweat it. When I am playing at home with the computer in front of me, I only print out the actual pp's . Then refer to the computer for everything else.

BillW
09-11-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by JustRalph
You must be using an Inkjet........get a laser printer..........

I have my costs down to about 2.5-3 cents a page. I buy in bulk. Toner and Paper in bulk. I print out every race I play from Equisim. Depending what I want to take to the track, or Race book, The ES program can offer me a ton of database style stuff and more. It can be as big as 80 pages for 10 races. I sometimes print a fifty page card. Carry it to vegas with me. But I have $1.50 or maybe $2.50 in the fifty pages. I figure if it was $3.00 bucks a card I still don't sweat it. When I am playing at home with the computer in front of me, I only print out the actual pp's . Then refer to the computer for everything else.

Additionally, the laser printer is a lot faster than the inkjets, I have had experience with.

Bill

kitts
09-11-2003, 02:53 PM
I am for the laser printer, except.......one of the reports I get (RS/POS) is color coded and when I print that one, I like the color. I looked into color laser printers. Ouch! I will stick with the ream of paper and cartridge per month.

Tom
09-11-2003, 08:16 PM
Anyone have any luck getting froulator to actually print out races?
I just used 7 pages to print out a 9 horse race. This is typical of Formulator. I have the print set up for standard 1`0 lines, but never get more that two horse per page. I would call DRF customer service but the don't have any.

This has got to be the worst software in terms of printing I have ever used, and that goes all the way back to Dos 3.2!

kitts
09-11-2003, 08:56 PM
Formulator is doing fine for me printing out PPs-I am doing LAD 9/13 right now and getting three and four horses per page. I'll tell you one thing though, be sure and use the right browser. Netscape messes up the download and I think older versions of MSIE are not very efficient.

I read elsewhere on this board that DRF exported their customer service to Italy. The one post I read was by a guy who speaks Italian and he found he got great service if he spoke Italian. But not English.

Dave Schwartz
09-11-2003, 09:34 PM
Kitts,

Are you joking about the Italian support?


Dave Schwartz

Tom
09-11-2003, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Kitts,

Are you joking about the Italian support?


Dave Schwartz

The last guy at DRF service I talked was a real meatball! :rolleyes:

VetScratch
09-11-2003, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Kitts,
Are you joking about the Italian support?
Dave Schwartz I seem to recall a thread that attracted a lot of criticism of DRF phone support. Because DRF subcontracted this support from a company named similar to Progresso, I think speaking Italian as a last resort may have been "someone's" dumb idea of a joke. :)

Redeeming value tip: if you shop in a little family-owned Italian delicatessen, always ask for $3 worth of capricola instead of a pound of capricola. If capricola is $3/pound, you will come out ahead every time (from Pacio's Survival Guide For Ethnic Neighborhoods). In my experience, this works even better if you pronounce capricola real fast, sort of like "gobbleghoul."

Dick Schmidt
09-12-2003, 04:01 AM
Why is it unbelievable that the Racing Form would contract out to Italy? Dell, from whom I just bought another computer, contracts out basic service to India. You have to get through about two layers of script readers in India before you get to someone in Texas who can actually answer complex questions.

Ain't the global economy wonderful?????

Dick

MikeDee
09-12-2003, 08:53 AM
sq764

I hardly ever print anything. At home I handicapp from the "data" on the laptop, no need to print. When I go to the track (once or twice a year) I take the laptop. Only if I figure I can't use the laptop at a track, then I am forced to print something.

Tom
09-12-2003, 12:32 PM
RU related to Derek? :D

takeout
09-12-2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by kitts
I will stick with the ream of paper and cartridge per month.
Buy the ink in bulk (gallon) and refill the cartridge over and over. It's a little messy but you'll save big.

As to DRF customer service... why would any company farm out something as crucial as customer service?

VetScratch
09-12-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Tom
RU related to Derek? :D noIRnot.

JustRalph
09-12-2003, 03:23 PM
U2R Funny!

VetScratch
09-12-2003, 04:22 PM
Dick,Dell, from whom I just bought another computer, contracts out basic service to India. You have to get through about two layers of script readers in India before you get to someone in Texas who can actually answer complex questions. It's a sad day when our school systems can't keep up with the demand for English-language script readers! Furthermore, I believe that the Indian government is now advertising for tutors to teach Ebonics and Hip-Hop so the script readers can communicate better with U.S. customers.

I got Dell and I be happy!

Valuist
09-12-2003, 05:28 PM
A practical question here: just what is the difference in quality in these ultra expensive data services? Is it different speed figures? Different charts or data presentation? At least with Thorograph I know what goes into their numbers. I would be hesitant to pay that kind of money for a product that is similar to the Form or Brisnet.

I admit when it comes to racing software, I don't know much about it. As a 3-4 time a week player is it worth it?

Tom
09-12-2003, 08:11 PM
With HDW you get quality control.
With DRF you get pepperoni! :eek:

HDW does a thorough cleaning of the data before they post it- that is why it comes out later than DRF. I guess the comparrison is HDW proofreads while DRF cuts and pastes. When you pay $100+ a month for data, you expect (and get) quality.
What do you get form DRF? Check out some recent posts by CJ.

BillW
09-12-2003, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by Tom
When you pay $100+ a month for data, you expect (and get) quality.
What do you get form DRF?

Last time I checked, the DRF would gladly charge you $100+/Mo. for data :D

Bill

MikeDee
09-13-2003, 08:13 AM
RE: service jobs being imported to India and elsewhere

In ever larger numbers major coporations are are exporting all kinds of service and white collar jobs out of this country along with all the blue collar jobs that are gone. I wonder who will around to afford all of the goods and services they want to sell here after all the good jobs are gone?

Tom
09-13-2003, 09:01 AM
Mike,
This is why I made the comment capitalism dosn't work. Under catialism, should these jobs naturally go to where the costs are lower?
When people have jobs and are not worried about "it" happening to them, they praise capitalism. As the poverty base increasses in size, they get religion.
I don't want to live in a global economy - I want to live in a strong and rich country.

Lefty
09-13-2003, 12:44 PM
Tom, i'll stop being a capitalist if you tell me what is better?

Dave Schwartz
09-13-2003, 02:15 PM
Tom,

And your suggested replacement for capitalism would be... ???


Dave

BillW
09-13-2003, 03:22 PM
Tom,

Aren't you talking about open v. isolationist economic policies? Both under the umbrella of capitalism.


Tom's away winning a tourney today, probably won't answer till later on tonite.:)

Bill

Kappa
09-13-2003, 08:06 PM
Since this post originally dealt with the cost of data, who would be willing to pay more for their data to support keeping these jobs in America (where the wages are higher)? After all, I get my data (HDW look-a-like) from the Chinese DRF - unlimited downloads for $25/month USD. :D


Herman

Dave Schwartz
09-13-2003, 08:19 PM
Kappa,

(I think you are kidding in the above post, but I just can't resist.)

Ah, now we begin touching upon the Great American problem... American business outsources its labor because it is cheaper abroad (and the fact that they can), then when the consumer chooses to buy offshore for the same reasons, we "aren't supporting America."

This is much like the argument made against off shore wagering; that the money does nothing to support/advance horses racing at the track.

I say that if the tracks choose to build a competitive product, then our money will gladly stay at home. Until then, let them cry and whine. When the pools are so small HERE and so large THERE, perhaps they will get the message that making more money is not just about raising prices. It is also about improving product and the customer experience.

(Note: Personally, I will only purchase an American car if the value/cost relationship is as good or better than that for a foreign car.)

Boy, I guess this was my day on the soapbox. <G>

Dave

Tom
09-13-2003, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Dave Schwartz
Tom,

And your suggested replacement for capitalism would be... ???


Dave

I 'll take this over to OFf Topics...

Valuist
09-15-2003, 11:57 AM
What exactly is HDW? I'm curious but one great thing about the DRF is that it DOES come out early. For instance, I'll go pick up Saturday's DRF early Friday morning so I can get a good headstart.

I did this Saturday and had a good day. I wasn't planning on going Sunday but rain washed out golf so I ended up at the OTB. They were out of Forms so I had to use the pathetic track programs. I swear, I NEVER make money when I try to handicap using only those track programs and yesterday was no different.

Kappa
09-15-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Valuist
What exactly is HDW? I'm curious but one great thing about the DRF is that it DOES come out early. For instance, I'll go pick up Saturday's DRF early Friday morning so I can get a good headstart.


A lot of the HWD files are available early AM, but I generally pick up my mid to late afternoon the day before. The neet thing is the files seem to be updated during the day, as a lot of the early scratches have been removed.

Tom
09-15-2003, 08:48 PM
It is a data seller for various reports/programs. The difference between HDW and DRF is quality control. HDW checks and correct its files.
Data is like sex....early is not alway the best. :eek:

shanta
09-15-2003, 10:31 PM
tom, never heard it put quite like that before!!!!!!!!!!!!
lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

JustRalph
09-15-2003, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by Tom
It is a data seller for various reports/programs. The difference between HDW and DRF is quality control. HDW checks and correct its files.
Data is like sex....early is not alway the best. :eek:

Tom

In that case you can always go back and do it again....just to Verify the Data!

hurrikane
09-15-2003, 11:47 PM
that may true Ralph...but how many times do you think Tom can have sex in season. :D :D

Jaguar
09-16-2003, 01:44 AM
Dave, good post. Excellent points.

The Government doesn't want sports betting here, so Americans send hundreds of millions of greenbacks overseas.

Seems as though Congress doesn't have a clue. Yet, they have plenty of money for crazy projects. I know someone who got federal money to research the sex life of fruit flies. -

It sounds like a joke, but it's true. Meanwhile, our soldiers in Iraq don't have enough flak vests- a crucial item for combat troops.

We need some practical people in Congress who are motivated to stimulate investment and productivity here at home. Let's create a climate friendly to economic growth.

The burdens of fees, taxes, and hostile local and State governments stifle the incentive for little guys to open a business.

What a contrast to the times of my youth, when the mayor would come to your business opening and municipalities would bend over backward to create a friendly climate for a new enterprise.

What the hell happened? This ain't the America I remember.

I love my country, but let's get it back on the right path.

We have huge federal police forces- employing 40,000 and even 50,000 agents, hauling innocent people into court. No one elected these police, yet they are laws unto themselves.

Let's re-think this whole thing before America sinks down any further into immorality and possibly for many folks- disappointment and frustration turn into despair.

Because, if people do despair- and lose confidence in the federal government- the results could set us back to the point where a dictatorship could theoretically emerge.

Beginning in the early 70's we lost the protections of the Second and Fourth Amendments, and with Echelon we have even lost the ability to communicate privately. What's next?

Let's start by recovering our Constitutional guarantees.

All The Best,

Jaguar