Was Secretariat the greatest?

[WillA]

Article, videos, and poll

http://www.examiner.com/sports-in-paducah/was-secretariat-the-greatest

[Pick6]

For two races, probably.

The rest of it I believe other horses could replicate.

[tzipi]

Surely the greatest. Turf races were great too and Laurin said Sec was probably better on turf.
In his maiden loss, he was inpeded.
In the Champagne, he was disqualified while winning by 2.
In the Wood or Whitney(not sure) he lost while running a fever. Supposedly Turcotte and the barn hands where really against him running but obviously they didn't make the final decision.

[Bullet Plane]

Citation and Secretariat were two of the greatest three year olds of the modern era. Beyond that, you get into a gigantic problem of comparing apples to oranges.

The Richard Sowers book on Throughbred Racing goes into alot of detail on how to differentiate...

Kelso ran the fastest one and five eigths of a mile by a three year old in the (2:40 4/5) in the 1960 Lawrence Realization Stakes, also the fastest two miles (3:19 1/5) in the 1964 Jockey Gold Cup-

So, that makes him faster than Secretariat right? Well, hard to say. Secretariat didn't race those distances on the dirt.

Also, Secretariat won the Belmont the fastest 12 furlongs on dirt (2:24). So, that makes him the fastest right?

Well, Kelso never raced 12 furlongs on the dirt. Who knows?

This is just one small example of the kind of problem you get into comparing these apples to oranges.

OK, cut out the bull, you say. They've all ran a mile and a quarter, so Secretariat is the World Record holder for that.... right?
Wrong!

Spectacular Bid holds that record - 1:57 4/5 at Santa Anita 3 Feb-80. Yeah, but isn't (or wasn't) Santa Anita a faster, glibber surface than Churchill Downs?
Probably, so you are back to square one.

[douglasw32]

Yes

[fast4522]

I would have to agree with Doug, I wish they had Bris files going back that far because I sure would like to load some of his races.

[Marshall Bennett]

He was so intelligent . He did it when he wanted to . When he wanted to he was second to none .

[Turkoman]

I think he was. In the Kentucky Derby, he ran each quarter mile faster than the previous one. That's simply amazing! His 31 length win and 2:24 final time in the Belmont Stakes will never happen again. Like someone else mentioned earlier, there were very legitimate excuses in at least three of his four defeats. He was one of a kind.

Turkoman

[Sericm]

The greatest horse to ever set foot on a race track was:

DR. FAGER


End of discussion.

[chickenhead]

I have no idea, but his Preakness was astounding. I've never seen a winning horse make a move like that.

[trackrat59]

Yes :ThmbUp:

[tzipi]

The greatest horse to ever set foot on a race track was:

DR. FAGER


End of discussion.

Well I'll say this. Love Dr Fager and he was a GREAT horse but he had his limits. I noticed that when he ran long distances(1 1/4), if he had to run 1:09.2 or faster upfront he folded in the stretch(twice). Both times it was Damascus who went up to him upfront and beat him. Secretariat could run 1:09 and change in a 1 1/2 race for 6F and win huge. Again LOVED the Doctor. Great horse and athlete but I can't say better than Secretariat because I think Dr had his limits.

[Cratos]

Article, videos, and poll

http://www.examiner.com/sports-in-paducah/was-secretariat-the-greatest

To answer that question you should first list what you think are the parametric determinants of greatness for a thoroughbred race horse.

[Turkoman]

I have no idea, but his Preakness was astounding. I've never seen a winning horse make a move like that.

That was an incredible move. I think he went from last to first in 1/16 or less? Not sure, but I've never seen anything like it.

Turkoman

[RaceBookJoe]

That was an incredible move. I think he went from last to first in 1/16 or less? Not sure, but I've never seen anything like it.

Turkoman

And it was around a turn. Have you ever watched his first race? He comes flying down near the wire after getting slammed at the start. rbj

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuATpq0t62E

[tzipi]

That was an incredible move. I think he went from last to first in 1/16 or less? Not sure, but I've never seen anything like it.

Turkoman

A devastating move that just kept on going. Chills.

[SmartyLane]

And it was around a turn. Have you ever watched his first race? He comes flying down near the wire after getting slammed at the start. rbj

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuATpq0t62E

In the book by Bill Nack he mentions that it was the belief of Lauren and Penny that this is why Secretariat always took back right out of the gate. Who knows maybe true, but he would come out of the gate slowly and then get himself in the race VERY VERY quickly.

[OntheRail]

YES... Truly a rare individual. :faint:

[Bruddah]

He was the best Race horse but not the best Stud/Sire. As it has been said "he left it all on the race track". :ThmbUp:

[appistappis]

YES, he was a tremendous machine.

[Turkoman]

And it was around a turn. Have you ever watched his first race? He comes flying down near the wire after getting slammed at the start. rbj

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuATpq0t62E

Yes, I've watched it. After the start, it looked like he had no chance at all. In the end, he was flying down the inside. He definitely would have won the race had it not been for that horrible start.

Turkoman

[Sericm]

Well I'll say this. Love Dr Fager and he was a GREAT horse but he had his limits. I noticed that when he ran long distances(1 1/4), if he had to run 1:09.2 or faster upfront he folded in the stretch(twice). Both times it was Damascus who went up to him upfront and beat him. Secretariat could run 1:09 and change in a 1 1/2 race for 6F and win huge. Again LOVED the Doctor. Great horse and athlete but I can't say better than Secretariat because I think Dr had his limits.

Have to disagree here. Whitely entered Hedevar as an entry with Damascus for one purpose. To run him into the ground because Dr. Fager was pure speed.
My Opinion only.

[tzipi]

Have to disagree here. Whitely entered Hedevar as an entry with Damascus for one purpose. To run him into the ground because Dr. Fager was pure speed.
My Opinion only.

Damascus in the Woodward had the lead(after being rushed up) by a 1/2 length after the first call and beat Fager by 10. So Damascus was also setting fast fractions too after the first call. Damascus was also just a head behind Fager in the Brooklyn at the first call. Damascus did not close on these guys in deep stretch. He was up on the lead setting the fractions also. Now granted Fager had to be upfront with a Hedevar in the earliest stage and it doesn't make winning easy at all doing that. But I guess that's what I mean when you look at what Secretariat had to run fraction wise in a 1 1/2 race and he still won like a freak.

I just think Fager as GREAT as he was, was not a horse who could handle long races under tough fractions like some others. Secretariat was a freak with no limits I believe. Fager was surely one of the greatest sprinters if not the best, no doubt and also he had some great route races. But yes, these are all our opinions and both horses were unbelievable athletes. ;)

[tucker6]

Damascus in the Woodward had the lead(after being rushed up) by a 1/2 length after the first call and beat Fager by 10. So Damascus was also setting fast fractions too after the first call. Damascus was also just a head behind Fager in the Brooklyn at the first call. Damascus did not close on these guys in deep stretch. He was up on the lead setting the fractions also. Now granted Fager had to be upfront with a Hedevar in the earliest stage and it doesn't make winning easy at all doing that. But I guess that's what I mean when you look at what Secretariat had to run fraction wise in a 1 1/2 race and he still won like a freak.

I just think Fager as GREAT as he was, was not a horse who could handle long races under tough fractions like some others. Secretariat was a freak with no limits I believe. Fager was surely one of the greatest sprinters if not the best, no doubt and also he had some great route races. But yes, these are all our opinions and both horses were unbelievable athletes. ;)Great post. I love both horses as well. Under 9F, give me the Doctor. Over 9F, give me Secretariat. As for Big Red, I believe I've seen all his races, and I never saw him tire at the wire. When he lost, he was holding position in the lane.

[trp]

Damascus in the Woodward had the lead(after being rushed up) by a 1/2 length after the first call and beat Fager by 10. So Damascus was also setting fast fractions too after the first call. Damascus was also just a head behind Fager in the Brooklyn at the first call. Damascus did not close on these guys in deep stretch. He was up on the lead setting the fractions also. Now granted Fager had to be upfront with a Hedevar in the earliest stage and it doesn't make winning easy at all doing that. But I guess that's what I mean when you look at what Secretariat had to run fraction wise in a 1 1/2 race and he still won like a freak.


You've got some incorrect information.

In the Woodward, Damascus was 5th by 12 lengths at the 1/2 and 4th by 8 lengths at the 3/4. After a mile he was 1st by 1/2 length.

In the Brooklyn H, Damascus was 5th by 11 lengths at the 1/2 and 5th by 8 lengths at the 3/4. After a mile he was 2nd by 1/2 length.

I got this information from the charts, but you can watch both the races on Youtube and get the gist of Damascus's positioning.

[Steve R]

Apropos of this thread, here is a fantasy race involving all 11 TC winners.

Secretariat (#7, the 5-2 favorite in the orange silks) is 7th early with Count Fleet on the lead followed by War Admiral, Sir Barton and Affirmed. Into the first turn Count Fleet opens up by 2 1/2 with Affirmed moving into second and War Admiral holding 3rd. Affirmed draws to within a half length of the lead after a half in :46 flat. Secretariat comes off the rail on the backstretch and Count Fleet opens up a bit on a Affirmed as they head into the final turn. Three quarters goes in 1:09.4. Secretariat moves four wide mid-way through the turn and launches a bold bid for the front, collaring Count Fleet just inside the quarter pole and drawing away to win by 8 lengths. The mile goes in 1:34 flat and the final time in 1:57.3. War Admiral and Citation, never far back, pass a tiring Affirmed and Count Fleet in the stretch to finish 2nd and 3rd. They are followed by Gallant Fox, Count Fleet, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Whirlaway, Omaha, Assault and Sir Barton.

eDCpoOiVu-Q

[tucker6]

Apropos of this thread, here is a fantasy race involving all 11 TC winners.

Secretariat (#7, the 5-2 favorite in the orange silks) is 7th early with Count Fleet on the lead followed by War Admiral, Sir Barton and Affirmed. Into the first turn Count Fleet opens up by 2 1/2 with Affirmed moving into second and War Admiral holding 3rd. Affirmed draws to within a half length of the lead after a half in :46 flat. Secretariat comes off the rail on the backstretch and Count Fleet opens up a bit on a Affirmed as they head into the final turn. Three quarters goes in 1:09.4. Secretariat moves four wide mid-way through the turn and launches a bold bid for the front, collaring Count Fleet just inside the quarter pole and drawing away to win by 8 lengths. The mile goes in 1:34 flat and the final time in 1:57.3. War Admiral and Citation, never far back, pass a tiring Affirmed and Count Fleet in the stretch to finish 2nd and 3rd. They are followed by Gallant Fox, Count Fleet, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Whirlaway, Omaha, Assault and Sir Barton.
I have a hard time believing Seattle Slew's name never gets mentioned in this fantasy race. He was a work horse. While I believe Sec could certainly win by 8 (he always had an easy win in him when he wanted to regardless of competition), I can't see SS taking sixth. Third maybe.

[GatetoWire]

Are you kidding??? By far the greatest horse ever.

Look at the times in the Derby

1:59 2/5 is still the track record!!!
The successive quarter-mile times were 25 1/5, 24, 23 4/5, 23 2/5, and 23

In the Belmont his 1 1/2 mile time was 2:24.....do you realize that no other horse has ever even broken 2:25 for a 1 1/2 miles.

In that race he ran 23 3/5, 46 1/5, and 1:09 4/5.....That's 3/4's in 1:09 4/5 and he still had enough in the tank to go 2:24 for the 1 1/2 mile.

In fact he is the best horse of all time by such a wide margin that there isn't even another horse on that top shelf with him.

Oh and by the way this was 1973.....how fast would he be today with modern medicine on his side.

[tucker6]

Are you kidding??? By far the greatest horse ever.

In fact he is the best horse of all time by such a wide margin that there isn't even another horse on that top shelf with him.

Oh and by the way this was 1973.....how fast would he be today with modern medicine on his side.A better question is, "how slow would he be today with modern training in his corner"?? I'm thinking a 2:28 Belmont with pats on the back to each of the connections.

[Pell Mell]

He was the best Race horse but not the best Stud/Sire. As it has been said "he left it all on the race track". :ThmbUp:

I don't know how much you think you know about breeding as I saw your post about Uncle Mo and I was wondering what pedigree you had been reading.

Some great horses are able to pass on their genes directly and others do it through the females.

Sec was a great broodmare sire which means he didn't leave it on the track.

[tzipi]

You've got some incorrect information.

In the Woodward, Damascus was 5th by 12 lengths at the 1/2 and 4th by 8 lengths at the 3/4. After a mile he was 1st by 1/2 length.

In the Brooklyn H, Damascus was 5th by 11 lengths at the 1/2 and 5th by 8 lengths at the 3/4. After a mile he was 2nd by 1/2 length.

I got this information from the charts, but you can watch both the races on Youtube and get the gist of Damascus's positioning.

Sorry, made a small mistake but Damascus in the Woodward had the lead at the top of the stretch and was 1/2 length off lead in the Brooklyn at top of the stretch. Wasn't like Damascus was a deep stretch closer. Anyway, my post was about Secretariats and Dr. Fagers limits not just about Fager faulting under fast fractions. My point was Secretariat was a freak who could demolish fields under wicked fractions even at 1 1/2. Fager was a incredible sprinter and probably the best, no doubt. But as I said I think he had his limits.

[Steve R]

I have a hard time believing Seattle Slew's name never gets mentioned in this fantasy race. He was a work horse. While I believe Sec could certainly win by 8 (he always had an easy win in him when he wanted to regardless of competition), I can't see SS taking sixth. Third maybe.
I think it's perfectly plausible that Seattle Slew would finish mid-pack in this field. If you look at the pps of the TC winners you'll find that Count Fleet, War Admiral and Sir Barton were, in addition to Seattle Slew, all WTW speed types with 1s at every call in almost all their races. Each one took the Derby on the front end, except Seattle Slew who actually was 2nd by a head through a half mile. You can't really compare them accurately, but considering that they all couldn't get to the lead, it's quite possible Seattle Slew might not get it against these and would be been running counter to his preferred style. Anyway, it's all in fun.

[cj's dad]

Everyone of these discussions are subjective;

Was Joe Louis or Marciano the best ??

Unitas or Namath ????

Ruth or Gehrig ??

DiMaggio or Mantle ??

No one will ever know and all of the above are aguable - Thank God that I saw most of them play !!

[tzipi]

Everyone of these discussions are subjective;

Was Joe Louis or Marciano the best ??

Unitas or Namath ????

Ruth or Gehrig ??

DiMaggio or Mantle ??

No one will ever know and all of the above are aguable - Thank God that I saw most of them play !!

Very true. Tough to compare athletes alot of the time. But it's fun to have the opinions and talk about them. But very tough to find a sure answer.

[affirmedny]

I have a hard time believing Seattle Slew's name never gets mentioned in this fantasy race. He was a work horse. While I believe Sec could certainly win by 8 (he always had an easy win in him when he wanted to regardless of competition), I can't see SS taking sixth. Third maybe.

Does anybody else think that Prove Out, Onion, and Angle Light were nowhere near as good as JO Tobin, Dr. Patches, and Exceller? Or am I the only one?

[tucker6]

Does anybody else think that Prove Out, Onion, and Angle Light were nowhere near as good as JO Tobin, Dr. Patches, and Exceller? Or am I the only one?I'll give you Angle Light. Not sure I agree on Onion and Prove Out. Thought provoking though. :ThmbUp:

[affirmedny]

I'll give you Angle Light. Not sure I agree on Onion and Prove Out. Thought provoking though. :ThmbUp:

You have to give me all three I think:


defeaters (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AnxYyvWlEafCdGlsMHBteFI1Z2dtV042VTIxa2R1a VE&hl=en&output=html)

[bisket]

as far as american thoroughbred racing is concerned they are all looking up at secretariat and man o war.

[tzipi]

as far as american thoroughbred racing is concerned they are all looking up at secretariat and man o war.

Very true :ThmbUp:

[Pick6]

I'll give you Angle Light. Not sure I agree on Onion and Prove Out. Thought provoking though. :ThmbUp:
For a 3 month period Prove Out was sensational. He whipped Secretariat at 1 1/2 miles, and demolished Riva Ridge at 2 miles. He set/broke track records for 7 furlongs and 1 1/16 miles as well. All in a 3 month period How more versatile than that can you get?

No award for older horse, given to Riva Ridge (?).

[Cratos]

For a 3 month period Prove Out was sensational. He whipped Secretariat at 1 1/2 miles, and demolished Riva Ridge at 2 miles. He set/broke track records for 7 furlongs and 1 1/16 miles as well. All in a 3 month period How more versatile than that can you get?

No award for older horse, given to Riva Ridge (?).

A great post which clearly distinguish the competition of today from the competition of yesteryear and should put into focus the question which is the topic of this thread.

[tucker6]

For a 3 month period Prove Out was sensational. He whipped Secretariat at 1 1/2 miles, and demolished Riva Ridge at 2 miles. He set/broke track records for 7 furlongs and 1 1/16 miles as well. All in a 3 month period How more versatile than that can you get?

No award for older horse, given to Riva Ridge (?).I thought Prove Out had a great race against Red. Red ran a great race himself, yet people say he had a clunker. I wish more horses would have clunkers like he did in that race. I absolutely agree that Prove Out was sensational in that race.

I liked Riva Ridge as well. Too bad he wasn't a mudder, or we'd possibly have 12 TC champions.

[proximity]

Unitas or Namath ????


:confused:

[KingChas]

Secretariat #1 that I have seen.
Belmont = Athletic Perfection in my eyes.

Historically I would say Man o' War.
20/21 with a big excuse for the loss.
No starting gate cost him perfection.
The horse carried as much as 138 pds winning.
Setting numerous track records.
Still holds at least one that I know of.

One little known fact about MoW.
Why didn't he win the triple crown?
Man o' War was not entered in the Kentucky Derby because his owner did not like racing in Kentucky.

Must a raised a flap-per or two back in the day,huh?
History does repeat itself.................. ;)

[TommyCh]

Secretariat #1 that I have seen.
Belmont = Athletic Perfection in my eyes.

Historically I would say Man o' War.
20/21 with a big excuse for the loss.
No starting gate cost him perfection.
The horse carried as much as 138 pds winning.
Setting numerous track records.
Still holds at least one that I know of.

One little known fact about MoW.
Why didn't he win the triple crown?
Man o' War was not entered in the Kentucky Derby because his owner did not like racing in Kentucky.

Must a raised a flap-per or two back in the day,huh?
History does repeat itself.................. ;)

Technically, the Triple Crown did not exist when MOW ran. A newspaper and consensus created it about 10 years later.