Now, THIS is a bummer

[andicap]

Another reason NOT to celebrate my birthday as I get older....it's Thursday....never a day I want to feel good on. Needless to say, no presents are exchanged on that day -- I wait until the 12th.

Believe me, New Yorkers still feel the pain -- still have nightmares and in fact are more nervous than ever (with the world getting even more dangerous) about another attack.

:mad:

[hurrikane]

andi,
my sons birthday is also on the 11th. He turned 18 on 9.11.01

had to work real hard to make it a birthday for him. And it continues being difficult to make it his day....

happy birthday andi

[Observer]

Try to make the best of this, as you can.

Would you believe a fellow New Yorker said to me the other day .. "isn't it time these people get over this, already?"

[superfecta]

I was one of them....wife kicked me out because I asked why did she spend 1200 dollars on a company credit card....never found out why,don't care,it was the straw that broke the camels back...so I remember that day in a personal way as well.

[andicap]

Originally posted by Observer
Try to make the best of this, as you can.

Would you believe a fellow New Yorker said to me the other day .. "isn't it time these people get over this, already?"

Not that this is a direct analogy (I'm Jewish) but it's a little bit like people who chide Jews for not getting over the Holocaust. Yes, 3,000 is not 6,000,000 and a whole population of people were not destroyed. But the principle to me is the same. It was a life-changing event for many, many people. Almost everyone in NYC was profoundly affected in some way.
Get over it? What, it's a toothache? This isn't sports. It's not like losing the Super Bowl.
"Getting over it" will led to complacency which will lead inevitably to another tragedy. The Jews say "Never Again" to mean no more Holocausts or Masadas or pograms. (But I'm no radical Zionist/Israeli apologist by any means). It's a good motto for 9/11 too.
Now, NOT getting over it is not the same as coming to terms with it or wallowing in it. You must deal with it psychologically and you can't wallow in it. You can't grieve forever. You must go on with your life.
But I will never "get over it."

[Dave Schwartz]

Andicap,

Well said.

While life MUST go on, I contend that we aren't supposed to forget.

I can imagine that there are people in Oklahoma City who still cannot what by the site of that blast without... feeling.

And it isn't just the people who died... Your city was ATTACKED!

I contend that had the towers come down and not a single person died it would still have been a traumatic experience for the residents of New York.

My limited experience with New Yorkers (and people from the North East in general) is that you are more connected to your city than we westerners are to ours.

I live in Reno. It has been my home for 19 years and I like living here. But I am not very pridefully connected to its culture (Do we have any? <G>) as New Yorkers are to theirs.

When we made the Saratoga trip, Suff (a lifelong Bostonian) picked us up at Logan. We got a quick (it was night) tour through Boston that was given with a great deal of civic pride. ("That bridge is the biggest... I worked on that bridge... This project was...") Frankly, civic pride like that is foreign to me.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Lefty]

WE all should always remember the holocaust and we should all remember 9-11. It seems as if ALL of the democrats nominated for Pres. have already forgotten 9-11 and have stooped to calling the president every name in the book as he is fighting a war on terror the last administration had neither the time or guts to pursue.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by andicap
Almost everyone in NYC was profoundly affected in some way.


Great Post Andi.......

Anybody who doesn't believe they were affected by the 9-11 events is ignoring the downturn in several parts of our economy that were directly tied to the attacks. If you are an American, you were impacted .........

[andicap]

Originally posted by Lefty
WE all should always remember the holocaust and we should all remember 9-11. It seems as if ALL of the democrats nominated for Pres. have already forgotten 9-11 and have stooped to calling the president every name in the book as he is fighting a war on terror the last administration had neither the time or guts to pursue.

Obvioiusly I don't agree with you Lefty -- but you're entitled to your opinion.

[JustRalph]

The problem really lies in the fact that both of you are right......

In one way or another you both make valid points. It is the perception of the problems and the way the media chooses to portray things that can influence the un-informed. I heard on the radio last weekend that "too many troops have died in post war Iraq" and we are still under 500 for the entire mission. I can tell you that in War planning, 500 troops is barely a blip on the radar and despite how some people might feel about it........the Pentagon is probably happy as hell about the body count.

The fact that some people are saying there was not enough planning for the "Post war effort" doesn't realize that you cannot plan enough, no matter the circumstances. It is a war zone. It is fluid and constantly changing. The march through Iraq was necessary and will have an impact for years to come. That was the intention and that goal was met. The rest is just public relations. It will be up and down. But the real objective was met.

[Amazin]

Andi:
To make matters worse,the Whitehouse forced the EPA to lie about the hazardous waste emmitted by the destruction of the towers to New Yorkers and the clean up crews putting them at an unnecessary health risk.For whose sake?Certainly not those who work or live in that area.Makes you think there are three sides involved here:Sincere but uninfomed citizens,the government and Al Queda.You may have more to fear from your own government than from another Terrorist attack.


Speaking of terrorism,a poll shown on MSNBC last night shows that now 58% of Americans believe we are now more likely than less likely to have a terrorist attack as a result of the Iraqi invasion. Iraq has turned into a perfect training ground for terrorists. It is also breeding them better than ever. Bush's strategy has clearly backfired. and Americans like you now reflect that feeling.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin
Andi:
To make matters worse,the Whitehouse forced the EPA to lie about the hazardous waste emmitted by the destruction of the towers to New Yorkers and the clean up crews putting them at an unnecessary health risk.For whose sake?Certainly not those who work or live in that area.Makes you think there are three sides involved here:Sincere but uninfomed citizens,the government and Al Queda.You may have more to fear from your own government than from another Terrorist attack.


Just for your information, this was the lie that ended my support for Boy-George. I had a lot of problems swallowing the crap he spewed out about the uranium connection that the CIA has down played months before, and when it took himn weeks to stand up and finally take the responsibility for it, after letting a subordinate (head of CIA) danlge in the breeze because of it, I realized that leadership and Bush were like a nice bowl of hot ice cream.

I think the second part of your post is half right - we are more at risk for a new attack becasue of Iraq, but not for your reasons - I think we have strayed from our real purpose - to find and kill our enemies no matter where they are. Instead, we wasted valuable time and resources in Iraq. It should have been a wham-bam thank you mam war - go in, destroy, leave. We are using the finest army the world has ever seen to sweep streets and stand in front of snipers. We should be persuring Bin Laden with a vengence. Two years have passed and we have not found that slime-ball? That is unacceptable.
As the dim wit who flew from NY to Texas in a crate in a cargo hold proved this week, our airport security is a total and complete ioke. And a damn expenive one.
And just what Junior been up lately? Trying to take away the overtime from Amercian workers, whose backs are breaking from supporting the likes of him and pals. Tip 'o the hat to the democrates (Yes..I said that!) who stepped in and blocked his attemtped rape of the workers. Just does stealing overitme fix the economy or make us safer? Perhaps it would help the economy more to have the justice department put some of those CEO's and other frauds and crooks who destroyed the retirements of countless average Joe's - so far, only 1 is doing time, and from what I hear, his tennis game is improving.
So how should we observe the second aniversery of 9-11 this year?
How about nuclear pattern bombing of the general area in Afghanistand/Pakistan where we belive Bin Laden is hiding?
I'll drink to that.

[Amazin]

Tom Quote"How about nuclear pattern bombing of the general area in Afghanistand/Pakistan where we belive Bin Laden is hiding?
I'll drink to that."

You know that is no solution either.We have come as close to nuclear bombing as you can get with Carpet bombing in Vietnam,Afghanistan and Bahgdad.The problem is you don't only kill "the enemy",you also kill many civilians. This makes friendly nations less friendly and causes internal unrest.It also creates a greater incentive for revenge on the part of your enemy.A vicious cycle. Been there done that and a completely self defeating strategy.

[doophus]

Originally posted by Amazin
Tom Quote"How about nuclear pattern bombing of the general area in Afghanistand/Pakistan where we belive Bin Laden is hiding?
I'll drink to that."

You know that is no solution either.We have come as close to nuclear bombing as you can get with Carpet bombing in Vietnam,Afghanistan and Bahgdad.The problem is you don't only kill "the enemy",you also kill many civilians. This makes friendly nations less friendly and causes internal unrest.It also creates a greater incentive for revenge on the part of your enemy.A vicious cycle. Been there done that and a completely self defeating strategy.

Carpet bombing IN Baghdad?? I don't think so!! Just another of those liberal exxaggerations/lies. If the military had bombed Baghdad in such a way, maybe, just maybe, there wouldn't be so many troublesome Bathist today.

Concerning the differences in the US and UN nation rebuilding process, take a look at this link:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/coulter.html

Also, referencing a previous post, who among us saw the clouds of dust, grime, etc. created when the towers pancaked and had no thought of the potential contamination? How many people were kept from their nearby homes until decontamination was certified? Had the US and/or the UN screamed from the highest hill about the contamination and its long-term effects, who among those firemen, cops, ironworkers, and others would have chosen to leave THAT site? With that cloud of ash, dust, etc who needs any government to pronounce it "DIRTY?" The buildings had to be full of asbestos, lead paint, and many other contaminants that wouldn't be acceptable in today's construction code. With that cloud of dust, who needs ANY government to warn us of the potential hazards?

It's time for all the DOOPHIIS to step forward.



George

P.S. Show me once where "W" waggled his finger at the American people and lied. Amazin', I don't remember you jumping on the finger waggler when he lied. Oh, I got it, it's okay for a Democrat/liberal to lie!!

[Lefty]

If Geo. W. had not pursued these terrorists to Afghanistand and Iraq and done nothing as the Dems would like it another attack would be imminent and prob. would have already happened. We can be weak pacifists and hope the worl will spare us or we can be aggressive and carry the fight to them. I prefer the latter.
A bully isc always quick to attack the weak and scared of the strong.
Let me get this straight, terrorists brought down the Twin Towers and of course there will be contamination and that's Bush's fault? Sad even for liberals.
How do you completely plan for aftermath of war when there are so many unknowns. Ex:The infrastructure of Iraq was left in more pitiful shape by Sadaam the we ever imagined.
We are winning, and it's sad the the Democratic Nominees can't find one good thing to say about Bush and persist in juvenile namecalling.
Bring em on.

[Tom]

I don't blame Bush for the contaminted air, bu tI do blame his for not giving the people who lvie and work there the real facts-instead he downplayed the real situation. That is irresponsible.
More importantly, is it disgusting because he put me on the same
side as Hillary on this one. Yikes? :eek:

[Amazin]

Lefty and Doophus:

It's one thing to be conservative,it's another to not read the newspapers.I don't make this stuff up. I haven't been posting too much of this stuff lately cause it's all coming out slowly,like taking a long crap.But in case you missed the Bush lie about the twin towers hazardous waste issue,here's a start.

New York -- In the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attack on the World Trade Center, the White House instructed the Environmental Protection Agency to give the public misleading information, telling New Yorkers it was safe to breathe when reliable information on air quality was not available.

Full story:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/08/23/MN300070.DTL

[Lefty]

amazin, YOU might not make this stuff up but a lot of newspapers do, i.e. NY Times, et al. I don't trust newspapers and don't read them.
On balance, Bush doing a great job in a tough situation but you libs are not ever going to give him one iota of credit.
Has anybody died froim the air there? Big ceremony there today and everyone present an air breather.

[Derek2U]

Guys I work right down there 4 blocks from ground zero.
I was sure the air sucked in the weeks that followed ---in fact,
I took off 2 weeks immediately. I think the air sucked for at least
~~ 3 mos after it. I don't know if ne1 knowingly lied -- I really
dont know --- but I recall hardly ne1 thought along those lines. But I'm getting more & more suspicious of people in general and
I don't like it. I lost 2 pals and many others, some on my speed
dial at work, but I just gotta think that bad decisions/dumbness
maybe but I hope that lying didnt happen. I was gonna quit
in the weeks that follwed but obviously i didnt & now its kinda
normal down there 2 me. It was amazing that day because I
left my apt to walk down the street & vote in the mayor primary.
I grabbed a cab to work & got downtown at ~~8:45 & ran into
a guy I hadnt seen (at my fav bars) in 2 few months. We just
stood catching up on stuff & KAPOW --- I thought Con Ed caused
it until we saw huge smoke & peeps running crying etc etc. In
the many weeks that follwed NO matter where U walked, even
6-10 blocks away, all U saw was pulverized soot/cement EVERY
WHERE. I brown bagged it for weeks almosr every day just to
avoid going out. Neways it was amazing also at how many many
peeps from all over states showed love. That was cool for sure.

[zieglerjw]

nobody seems to be discussing the origin of those" KAMIKAZI" pilots who caused all of this misery!! maybe we are all driving SUV'S that require a lot of gas , derived from the oil we need from "YOU KNOW WHO'' !!!! huh??!!??

[Tom]

Until we cut our dependance on oil, the middle east will have power. Without oil, they have nothing. Why do our cars still require gasoline?

[Amazin]

Lefty quote" I don't trust newspapers and don't read them.

This was on television too.This is not made up.Just where do you get your information from?

[Tom]

I saw an interview wtih someone from the EPA. I don't know why this so hard to belive....this kind of lying/manipulating rports is just commonplace in the business world. W has been very loose with facts and low on integrity-I don' t trust a man who dosen' t stand up and take responsibility for his actions. Like Bush with the CIA director-he should (1) no tused that known-false information in the State of the Union speech, and (2) when outed, he should have been right on top of it and said, hey-I exaggerated a bit, but I did it becasue....yadda yadda yadda, maybe I would have accepted it and gone along, but the way he handled it tells me I cannot ever believe a thing this guy has to say again. And I would not want his kind to stand behind me- he is a coward and willing to let subordinates that the heat for him.
I don't know where he went wrong, but two years after 9-11 and Bin Laden is still walkking around mocking us and threatening us and it is becaseu the Bush boys have lost sight of the real war on terror.
Yopu know what I, as a citizen and taxpayer, and part owner of this country would like to see?
Accountability. A daily report on where we searched for WMD and what we found there. So far, WMD have just disappeared from the radar screen. That was our main purpose, so what did we find, are we safer now? If we haven' found them then where are they? If they ever really existed, where are they? We are in more danger now than before if they are real and we have lost track of them, wouldn't you say?

[doophus]

My recollection of the happenings when the EPA and the trade centers story 1st broke was that the EPA person who "released" the info was/is one of those appointee holdovers from the previous administration. I'll do a Nexxus afterwhile for more info.

Again, that site was a war zone as of that day. I think history shows that people (civilians) in a war zone perform admirably, heroically and don't worry about the immediate environmental consequences. The then mayor of Hiroshima in the mid-50's spoke to a bunch of us and stated that the farmers et al came rushing into Hiroshima and Nagasaki to help. Maybe those farmers didn't know what really had happened, but they apparently didn't ask either. Most, I'm sure, paid dearly for their heroism. Some of the heroes of 9/11 will pay the same price, eventually.

[Lefty]

No matter how it turns out, it's a big so what? On balance I'll take this guy over anyone the Dems have to offer.
amazin, I don't get my news from liberal rags, i only trust Rush Limbaugh and Fox news.

[VetScratch]

On November 30, 1865, nine thousand Americans died in just five hours of hand-to-hand combat near Franklin, Tennessee, in a senseless battle after the Confederate cause was virtually hopeless. A battle-field communications blunder precipitated this slaughter.

The number of soldiers who perished would be equivalent to losing 75,000 lives in five hours today. Whether it's the tragedy of 9/11/2001 or the ongoing casualties in Iraq, the media seems to magnify every event. Simply put, 9/11 was a terrible tragedy, but it fails makes the worst ten list insofar as the percentage of families who have had loved ones killed or injured in a single day. Bombarded by 7/24 live coverage, how could we possibly cope with news as bad as Iwo Jima was for a solid month!

God bless ALL Americans who have died or been wounded in combat or been victimized by treachery!

[Lefty]

Vet, couldn't agree more. Good post.

[Tom]

The significance of 9-11 is that it was that it made perfectly clear that the new world order was here. We no longer need fear attack by a nation of enemies with their own brick and mortar homes and bases to retaliate against but rather an invisible army who live and walk amoung us and can strike on many levels at any time. We because what Israel has been for years. We are no longer safe in our homes, our offices, traveling in our own country.
We became a part of the world in our own homes, whether we like it or not. Many of our beliefs, customers, values became obsloter that morning. We can no longer survive in our isolationalist half of the world, protected by vast oceans and friendly neighbors to our north and south. The enemy is here and he is set to destroy us. the biggest thing I learned from 9-11 is that my enemey is more committed to dying than I was to living.
My whole belief system has changed as a result of that-not long ago I was against ALL forms of killing - war, murder, abortion, you name it, I was against it. Today, I support nuclear reataliation, shock and awe and the death penalty. I think the death penalty should be expanded to include many many more crimes that it does now.
I respect all of our heros who died in service to America in the past, but as they learned on December 7, 1941, we learned on Sept 11, 2001 - the world has changed. If we don't adapt, we will die. And BTW, Germany and Japan were the main concern in 1941, but Germany had powerful and effect allies who today are still a threat to us. Guess who?

[Lefty]

Tom, right, as Bill O'Reilly says this is world war 111 and i'm sure glad Bush is our President instead of any of the weak kneed ambivilent Democrats who covet that position.
And yes, he's fund raising but that's what you have to do to win elections. At least it's legal fund raising unlike the prev. administration.

[Tom]

Dont' get me wrong... I am NOT saying I support any of the democ-raps, I just don' t feel our current boy is doing the job.
There are terrorists hatching plots rhght now and we are re-building caves?????? Someone slap that man's face-wake him up!
George? Are you in there?

[Derek2U]

hey I agree with your sentiments 100 .... I work at a cool white glove firm ... per Vernacular Heh.. & of corse, as the DELI LAMA 14th(2B) do i hear u Laffing?? Finance has its dimensionS (if u know) and consequently life is getting hard 2 understand but IF was Prone 2(making boo-boos it would B) I like peeps 2 much and I give them a PaSS (on their F-ups). So mayb sooN i will B layin on some FabBeach w/ a drink checkin the FabBabes etc that cross my scope. hehe ... But I will NEVERb superficial, I'm 100
in Love w/ everyThing) heh yeah thats it .... oh yeah let me run
this by my dearesT Dear my Eternal BabE Solange, my wife of
FIVE MONTHS.

[PaceAdvantage]

Why oh why did you not stop by Saratoga when we were all there Derek....I was dying to meet you!

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Why oh why did you not stop by Saratoga when we were all there Derek....I was dying to meet you!

He was way2busy2!

[Tom]

...gotta get me Derek-English Dictionary :eek:

HeHeHe

[Amazin]

Terrorism will never be stopped until you understand it's birth.This is David's way of dealing with Goliath.You can nuke all you want,they napalmed Vietnam.What you and most Americans don't understand is you are trying to destroy a spiritual movement with bombs. Can't be done.Spirit is much more powerful. When you and America understand that,then you will start to unravel Terrorism.

[Dave Schwartz]

Terrorism will never stop. Period.

[Amazin]

That's like saying you can never beat the races.Untrue.

[VetScratch]

There will always be some terrorism, and there will always be some losing wagers. That is how it's always been.

[Dave Schwartz]

Amazin,

Tell me... WHat will make the Muslims stop?

[Tom]

For a religion that preaches love, there certainly are a lot of Islamics who have missed the point.
The reason terroism will never stop is because it the real goal of the Islamic world. They have not progresed as a society in centuries, but they are willing to steal the products of the western world (guns, cars, airplanes).
They do not want peace-they want to dominate. It is the same story as the Nazis - world domination with a different strategy for reaching that goal. Look at the palestinians - every time Israel tries to work towrds peace, they rally behind that little murdering SOB Arafat - who's death, BTW would have been timely 25 years ago - is is now overdue - and destroy the peace process.
The Islamic world will NEVER intergrate with anyone and we are wasting our time trying.
Stopping terrorism is as possible as eliminating cockraoches, controlling the weather, or finding an honest politician.
We cannot live with them, we cannot kill them all, so the choice, to me, is obvious..........

[doophus]

Originally posted by Tom
........For a religion that preaches love, there certainly are a lot of Islamics who have missed the point.

They were "loving" with the sword a couple hundred years b4 the Crusades......only the loving-armament has changed.

Amazin....

I agree the destruction of a spiritual movement is at least very unlikely (maybe the Aztecs would disagree if you can find one), but I think even David took the best weaponry he could find to incapacitate Goliath until he could use the sword to separate Goliath's head from his shoulders.

IMO, the day that we "understand" the terrorist is the day we become a terrorist.

[Lefty]

You can never eradicate all the roaches in the world but that doesn't mean you stop stepping on them to hold down the population. I once had a friend who thought if he just adopted a live and let live policy he and the roaches could coexist. When the roaches finally increased to where they overan him he broke out the roach spray. We must treat terrorists the same way. Amazin, terrorists want to eradicate everyone who does not agree to their way of life. Do you think we should just succumb?

[Lefty]

Tom, he's doing the best job that he can under the circumstances.
Hey, 80 Al Quada members were arrested on 9-11.
We must rebuild Iraq. If we can establish a democracy there it will be a terrible blow to terrorists.

[Amazin]

Dave S.askedTell me... WHat will make the Muslims stop?

Just like in horseracing or anything else the key is understanding what you are dealing with.

A)To you the terrorists are sinners,to themselves they are saints.

B) They are portrayed in the media as non human.Reality is they have blood in their veins and do feel pain.

C)Pain they feel is the U.S. trying to control the middle east.Just like we didnt like the British in 1776,they want their own uncontrolled destiny.

D)How come no one is asking the most obvious of questions regarding 9/11.Why did they do it? Because American mentality has been hijacked by the media to protect an exploitive American foreign policy.

E) Case in point:15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi's.Osama is a Saudi..They brought down the towers because most Saudi's are unhappy with their U.S. backed monarchy.This was a symbolic gesture of dissapproval.The media tells you they are just a bunch of lunatics.Fine,keep hiding the truth and keep having more terrorist attacks.

F) It's in Goliaths interest to hide information from the public that is pissing off David.

I)Goliath has underestimated David's spirit. You can only control a people for so long before they rise up and rebel. Give them hell and suicide bombings look better than the wretched life they are subjected to by their oppressors.

J)Don't misinterpret me as defending any of their tactics. But the solution ironically does not lie with David,it is Goliath who can stop pissing him off.

K)I really doubt most of you will agree here and prefer that cotton candy of the Evil empire that George feeds you. As long as Americans keep subscribing to Goliath's point of view then I would agree with those that say there will allways be terrorism.However change allways comes as a result of truth.When it comes out,terrorism will end.

[Dave Schwartz]

Amazin,

Still you do not answer.

"What will make them stop?"


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[JustRalph]

You tried really hard to not say it, but you are trying to say that we should give in to the Muslim idiots.

A famous Past President coined the phrase

"Peace through Strength"

You would coin the phrase

"Peace through Capitulation"

You would change our way of life due to fear of Terrorists. Doesn't sound like a viable plan to me.

[Larry Hamilton]

Amazin, that is easily the most sophmoric claptrap I have ever read on this site. You have outdone yourself. There is no way God did this wrongheadedness to an adult. Based on some of your posts, I believe you are about 16 and are using us as a science project--"How to infuriate adults with 11th grade essays." Next, you will be telling us to give World Peace a chance.

[Tom]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Amazin
[B]

D)How come no one is asking the most obvious of questions regarding 9/11.Why did they do it? Because American mentality has been hijacked by the media to protect an exploitive American foreign policy.
[quote]

Why did they do it?
Because they are sick, evil, sub-humans who worship the devil himself, not a god. Osama BIn LAden is a poison pill-anyone who supports him or is close to him has to die. No exception,s no mercy, just death. When we bombed Tora Bora, we missed him by something like 200 yards. Had they listened to me and used a nukbe, he would be dead now. And whole hell of a lot future terrorists. The only thing good to ever come out of the middle east is an empty B52.
They may have blood in thier veins, but they not felt nearly enough pain.
WE should stop pissing THEM off????
THEY should bow down and face mecca everyday and thank the devil I am not in charge over here.
You go watch a tape of the twin towers coiming down and come back here and tell who is pissing off who, mohamed junior!

[Amazin]

Terrorism is a byproduct of our foreign policy.The truth is usually hard to face.That's why I get responses such as those in this thread...defensive.

Third world countries are starting to come of age.They will not be stay subordinate forever, backwards forever, and be exploited forever by superpowers. They couldn't keep the Black man down in this country,and they won't keep the Brown man down in other countries.

The solution to terrorism is to stop treating non-Americans like their lives don't count.Look at Iraq.An ugly picture of US imperialism.How many terrorist do you think that situation has created?More than Saddam and Bin Laden combined. Who created them?United States foreign policy. Proof of my point can't be any clearer.

[Tom]

How much money have you saved so far in NOT having to pay for colonostomies?

[doophus]

Originally posted by Amazin
Terrorism is a byproduct of our foreign policy...............

....................The solution to terrorism is to stop treating non-Americans like their lives don't count.Look at Iraq.An ugly picture of US imperialism.How many terrorist do you think that situation has created?More than Saddam and Bin Laden combined. Who created them?United States foreign policy. Proof of my point can't be any clearer.

Amazin:

When and what, pray tell, did GWB do to the Muslims between 1/20/2001 and 9/11/2001? How was Clinton's foreign policy different? Did Clinton kiss Muslim a**es more often/readily? IMO, no one kissed Muslim a**es more than pappy Bush.

I'm certain our foreign policy had something to do with the hatred we have been shown by the likes of Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, Germany, France, east bloc countries, etc.

Our foreign policy has nothing to do with any of this. The Judeo-Christian (non-Islam) ethic is EVERYTHING!!!! And it doesn't matter to the Islamists who or which party is in the Presidency.

BTW, have you noticed that Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia and even Iran have softened their rhetoric since the Iraqi invasion. Libya is "busting a gut" to become everyone's friend. Syria doesn't support Hamas anymore. Iran is arresting Al Quaida management and troops. Saudi Arabia is arresting Al Quaida supporters.

Have you noticed since GWB declared "major hostilities over" that there have been more homicides in Washington, DC than GI's, not just USA, killed in all of Iraq? I understand that Iraq is approx the size of California; I'm sorry that I don't have the California homicide #'s readily available.

Damn, I'm sure our "foreign policy" had nothing to do with all of these changes, huh? Maybe GWB has begun to kiss Muslim a**es like his pappy!

Cynically yours,


George

[Lefty]

amazin, we are helping Iraq towards a democracy it has never known. We have stopped mass killings of Iraquis by their sadistic former leader. And yet you criticize the U.S. as imperialists. We have never claimed sovereign rights over any nation. Please consult your dictionary.

[VetScratch]

Unfortunately, the press corps and politicians don't give us credit for being able to grasp the big picture.

I think Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi is the only politician who has dared to confront the public with the full story. In his view, the 21st century will be characterized by two massive struggles which will last for decades:
(1) A social, religious, economic, and military struggle between the world's non-secular democracies and the worldwide Muslim secular movement, which extends far beyond the Middle East (e.g., Indonesia).
(2) A largely economic struggle between capitalist democracies and totalitarian-governed capitalism, where China is likely to become the world's economic superpower and be able to globally expand it's sphere of political, cultural, and economic influence much in the manner that our critics accuse the U.S. of doing today.

The worst case scenario for us would be opptortunistic alliances between the Muslim secular movements and China although they are not long-term natural allies any more than Germany and Japan were during WW-II.

[Amazin]

Doophus Quote"When and what, pray tell, did GWB do to the Muslims between 1/20/2001 and 9/11/2001? How was Clinton's foreign policy different? Did Clinton kiss Muslim a**es more often/readily? IMO, no one kissed Muslim a**es more than pappy Bush.
..........Our foreign policy has nothing to do with any of this

Doophus you are aptly named. Have you forgotten all the other terrorist attacks?Have you forgotten who sends billions to Israel every year who has recorded countless human rights violations?Bush in office.Clinton in office? Lets see.How about 1993 world trade center bombings? How about his embarrassing Somalia fiasco.How about we go way back to 1967 When RFK was assasinated because of U.S. support for Israel. My advice to you.Get a history book and read up on all the other repurcussions of our foreign policy. Your position of we do no wrong is what's wrong with uninformed Americans.

Lefty,you cannot impose democracy on a people.It is a contradiction in itself.

[Lefty]

amazin, we are not imposing democracy we are helping them achieve it. There is a huge difference.

[Amazin]

The only difference is that's a nicer way of saying it.But when the commander in chief of the occupying force has the philosphy of "my way or the highway",I don't think they have much of a choice.

[Lefty]

There werte 8 terrorist attacks during the Clinton yrs. The main ones that I remember were the first attack upon the World Trade Center and The U.S.S. Cole. Clinton did not much. This Pres will take the fight to the terrorists and so far it has also led to freeing two countries in the process. Good things, amazin, and yet you criticize. You, like a lot of other libs say it's our own damn fault it's our foreign policy it's our ties with Israel etc. You would have us change our ways and our philosophy to please the terrorists. If we do that we will surely lose our freedom.
Like GW says, "bring 'em on."

[VetScratch]

The spin put on every practically every issue hides the truth for fear of unfavorable poll results and election setbacks.

On Iraq, we were given a price estimate of about $60-billion without being told that this only covered stage one. After spending that with our approval, stage two is revealed at a cost of about $80-billion. Do we even know whether the billions due to Turkey as our toll fees, as well as similar promises not yet revealed, are included in these costs? I have no doubt that we will spend $250-billion before everything is said and done.

I wonder what the polls would have said if the proposition was stated as follows: How should we eliminate the Iraq problem?
A) For about $250-billion, we can spend five years trying to transform Iraq into a non-secular democraciy with a thriving economy that will become a model for other Muslim countries.
B) For about $50-billion, we can nuke the population centers and oil fields to the extent that Iraq won't be a threat to anyone for decades to come.
Method-A has a significantly higher probability of failure than method-B. The difference in cost to middle-income American taxpayers will be about $5,000. Which method do you prefer?

I think Method-A is worth the cost and risk, but I detest the devious politicians who never give us a chance to see what they are really up to until the horse has left the barn.

[Lefty]

The costs aren't always readily apparant. For instance we did not know how bad Sadaam left the infrastructure until we were in Baghdad for awhile.
I don't know of any adm Repub or Demo that ever accurately projected costs.
What price freedom, and I mean ours as well as theirs.

[VetScratch]

Lefty,
I don't know of any adm Repub or Demo that ever accurately projected costs.In the private sector, folks who never accurately project costs are NOT allowed to manage projects! I believe the government has been "string-betting" with our money in this poker game.

[so.cal.fan]

"In the private sector, folks who never accurately project costs are NOT allowed to manage projects! I believe the government has been "string-betting" with our money in this poker game".


That is a pretty damn accurate statement there Vettie.
I'm sick of the organized political parties..........I have been voting since 1964 and I am disgusted with Republicans and Democrats.
Their "spin" always sounds good, but never seems to work in reality.

But it is a mute point because no one seems to know how to correct the problems.

I live in Calif. where you all know we are having a "circus" type "recall" election......<SIGH>
My husband asked me yesterday, "who are you voting for"......my answer was: " I don't think it really matters"
That is a sad commentary. :confused:

[Lefty]

Vet, I agree somewhat. All social prgms should be droipped or turned over to the private sector as the govt mismanages these and drives up costs. But the war and defending this country is the govts job. All this money people gripe about to rebuild Iraq and secure our freedoms is a DROP IN THE BUCKET COMPARED TO THE MONEY THAT'S BEEN WASTED ON UNWORKABLE SOCIAL PRGMS DOWN THROUGH THE YRS. (Caps were unintentional)
We, as Bill Oreilly correctly says, are in World War 111
and in my words, it's a "forever" war and it won't be cheap.
Or we could, as amazin and other liberals seem to suggest, just do nothing, stop all progress and technology, apologize to the world for being so advanced and wanting freedom and be prepared to be taken over.over by Islam.

[Tom]

During WWII, the nazis murdered millions of Jews for no reason. The Jews were clearly the oppresed parties.
Using your logic, are the Jews not justified in sending homacide bombers into German restaraunts, onto German busses, into German schoolyards? Is it not their right to finally stand up for the wrongdoings?

[Amazin]

Lefty Quote: Or we could, as amazin and other liberals seem to suggest, just do nothing, stop all progress and technology, apologize to the world for being so advanced and wanting freedom and be prepared to be taken over.over by Islam.

Being technologically superior does not mean we can be bullies.As a country,we are adolescents with our newfound power.We don't know how to handle it in a mature adult way.We should be a confident leader,but instead we come off as a immature paranoid arrogant aggressor. No one is saying give in to terrorists or Islam.But why are Americans offended when "terrorists" strike back.Their people have been slaughtered by American politics.What do you expect them to do,lay down and die too.Sorry charlie,works both ways.Treat your neighbors right and you'll be treated right by them.Show them death and you'll get death. Law of Karma.

Tom

Is that some trick question.Answers are obvious.

[cj]

Originally posted by Amazin
...Being technologically superior does not mean we can be bullies...

Ummm, yes it does. It is the way of the world since the dawn of time. The strongest and the smartest rule. Would you rather be on the opposite end of the spectrum? You should worship every piece of ground of this country that you walk on, because in many other countries, you would be dead if you spoke out against your government like you can do here.

[Dave Schwartz]

CJ,

Well said.



Amazin,

You said: "...Show them death and you'll get death. Law of Karma.
"

And so why is attacking nations that harbor/support terrorists wrong, again?


Dave Schwartz

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin

Tom

Is that some trick question.Answers are obvious.

Not so obvious. you have an annoying little habit of avoiding answering direct questions. Dave has tried, Left has tried, I have tried. You change the subject. I suspect you are really Bill Clinton.
Sadam Hussein killed many more people than the US has yet you say we left the Iraqi's worse off than before? We didn't find the WMD but we sure found a lot of mass graves.
Hussein gave them death, why didn't they give him death?

[Lefty]

amazin, if you think we're bullies for defending ourselves then thank God that you are in the minority. We freed Germany and Japan and yet they are not ours today. Does that sound like a bully? I think not. You let anyone walk all over you and they will continue doing it. I'm glad this country after 8 yrs of weak leadership has another striong man in the White House.

[Tom]

When you think about it, it was preetty sad the way our troops went to Kuwait a decade ago and just totally pushed those invading Iraqi troops around. All they were doing was taking over a small country and burnig oil wells. Then we shjow up and just ruin everything.
No wonder Osama got so mad at us!
When will we ever learn?????:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Amazin]

You guys are missing the whole point.Even bullies need friends or they will be swallowed up by the problems of this planet. The turmoil on this planet cannot be conquered by one or two bullying nations.Georgy certainly has exemplified that by playing cowboy in Iraq and now backpeddling a bit with the UN due to the pandora box he has opened.And this is just little Iraq.Imagine doing this on a larger scale. The bully would go down.

And here is the core of what I am saying.The older I get the more it's becoming obvious what this whole planet and life is about.It's a game and its not a game. Everything on this planet grows or evolves or dies. We are here with our different skins,cultures,languages etc. to COOPERATE together in order to grow/evolve to new heights.This is the key.Nothing will be solved politically on this planet unless people of different nations do this.Its a bit amusing how generation after generation are missing the only solution to problems between nations.War has still not ended war since the begining of time with the mightiest nations eventually succumbing . The challenge to leaders and people is great.Drop your predjudice,greed,anger,differences,etc.Sounds like hippie talk?But that's the only way out of this quagmire of kill or be killed.Eventually we will have no choice as a species.We will either be forced to go that way or die as a species. This may be why we have only been on this planet a fraction of the time the dinosaurs lived here. God is aware that we are not the most gracious guests.

[Tom]

Amazin,
Homacide bombs accomplish this how again?

[Lefty]

Now let's all join Amazin in a world "hug" and sing Peter Paul and Mary songs until the terrrorists realize we love 'em and won't bother us anymore.
"Kumbaya..."

[Tom]

Who stood taller for love and peace than the Beatles in the 60's.
John Lennon was murdered and George Harrison was stabbed in his own home.
You DO NOT stop your enemies by laying down your arms.
Like it or not, this is a kill or be killed world. If you are not prepared to kill, then be prepared to die. I don't like it, but that's just the way it is.

[Amazin]

John Lennon's assasin,Mark Chapman saw him as a hypocrite. Here's a superstar talking against materialism while he lives the ultra materialistic life of the rich and famous.He thought Lennon was a despicable phony.That's why he shot him.Chapman had no right to shoot Lennon but he had a point. Talking about peace and love can be as superficial as singing about it while you profit from it..You can hug me till you hit a pik 6,but that doesn't mean squat if it's insincere.

The change that needs to happen needs to be real,not superficial. If you havent learned how to understand yourself and your environment and why you're here,how can you even remotely contemplate solving terrorism or political differences.You will fail dismally as is the case.

[Tom]

Whatever......

A, those aren't jets flying by- they are points. You keep missing them. :rolleyes:

[Lefty]

Can't we all just get along?
Let's sing.
A John Lennon peace song will do nicely.
I'll start.
Imagine if there were no liberals...

[JimL]

Now that was funny Lefty, I cant stop laughing!

[Tom]

LOL

Next let's sing Happiness is a Warm Gun!

[doophus]

and then ALWAYS