ZENYATTA 'S 19TH WIN

[GARY Z]

Granted winning 19 straight is an incredible feat for any
thoroughbred .Regardless, I centered Switch in my exotics based on the strength of the trainer and his decison to run this 3 year old filly
against the likes of Z

While I wish the connections the best, this race benchmarks
not only the weakness of today's field but the fact Zen apppeared
beaten in mid stretch and was all out to beat a talented
three year old making only her second start in a Grade I.


The BC Classic will certainly be an interesting race based upon today's
result.

[andymays]

Good for her and the connections. :ThmbUp:

[Zippy Chippy]

Can someone post the video?

My mother ruined it for me. I told everyone in the world not to text me but forgot my mom

Also, Zenyatta always seems beaten in the stretch, but she pulls it out EVERYTIME!!

so happy.. 1 more..

[andymays]

Can someone post the video?

My mother ruined it for me. I told everyone in the world not to text me but forgot my mom

Also, Zenyatta always seems beaten in the stretch, but she pulls it out EVERYTIME!!

so happy.. 1 more..

No, no video for you. Absolutely not. ;)

[bigmack]

No, no video for you. Absolutely not. ;)
:lol:

6dq8fAQ6yjo

[andymays]

:lol:

6dq8fAQ6yjo

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[classhandicapper]

As much as it pains me to say this, I'm fairly convinced by today's race that much like Rachel Alexandra, Zenyatta has lost a step this year compared to where she was for the Classic in 2009 and especially where she was in 2008.

Other than the St Trinian's race (where I thought she ran very well but perhaps not at her peak), every other race has been ambiguous because of an extremely slow pace/tough ground loss, the ease of victory etc... So it has been hard for me to make a definitive statement about where I think she is compared to the past.

But at her best, she's faced similarly tough circumstances on occasion and didn't struggle nearly this hard or have to dig this deep to get up against much better horses than she's faced this year or today (other than St Trinians).

When I look at that evidence plus my personal opinion that she hasn't been working as well this year as she has in the past (I know the connections say she is but I disagree), I'm fairly convinced pending a remarkable turnaround on the work tab preparing for the Classic that's she's not the same horse this year. She's still very good, but not the same.

I thought she was dead at the 1/8th pole but she still managed to win. Simply a remarkable will to win. Amazing.

[TheGrandDesign]

As much as it pains me to say this, I'm fairly convinced by today's race that much like Rachel Alexandra, Zenyatta has lost a step this year compared to where she was for the Classic in 2009 and especially where she was in 2008.

Other than the St Trinian's race (where I thought she ran very well but perhaps not at her peak), every other race has been ambiguous because of an extremely slow pace/tough ground loss, the ease of victory etc... So it has been hard for me to make a definitive statement about where I think she is compared to the past.

But at her best, she's faced similarly tough circumstances on occasion and didn't struggle nearly this hard or have to dig this deep to get up against much better horses than she's faced this year or today (other than St Trinians).

When I look at that evidence plus my personal opinion that she hasn't been working as well this year as she has in the past (I know the connections say she is but I disagree), I'm fairly convinced pending a remarkable turnaround on the work tab preparing for the Classic that's she's not the same horse this year. She's still very good, but not the same.

I thought she was dead at the 1/8th pole but she still managed to win. Simply a remarkable will to win. Amazing.
CH i agree she may have lost a step,age will do that,normal IMO.

[Hanover1]

These notions of losing a step are subjective imo. Its as much about Smiths timing the move as anything else, and he appears to thread the needle every time this year.

[Zippy Chippy]

These notions of losing a step are subjective imo. Its as much about Smiths timing the move as anything else, and he appears to thread the needle every time this year.

Zenyatta is my favorite horse/athlete of all time, and id have to agree she's probably lost a step. Not her fault. She's almost a middle aged lady and she's still taking these little wippersnappers to school! Man, 1 more race. Just one more win! Will be the happiest sporting moment of my life.

[andymays]

It was a closer biased track today. No doubt. ;)

[bks]

Given they came home about 37.2 in the Goodwood, she would have blown by on the outside and no one would be asking about her losing a step.

At 1 1/16, I think she's just getting running.

[tzipi]

Zenyatta is my favorite horse/athlete of all time, and id have to agree she's probably lost a step. Not her fault. She's almost a middle aged lady and she's still taking these little wippersnappers to school! Man, 1 more race. Just one more win! Will be the happiest sporting moment of my life.

Well ok they were insignificant horses she was facing again I guess but she is consistent against them. I'll say that. Can't knock Zen's consistency. I wish her connections did more with her talent.

[TheGrandDesign]

Given they came home about 37.2 in the Goodwood, she would have blown by on the outside and no one would be asking about her losing a step.

At 1 1/16, I think she's just getting running.
She finished the last 16th in 5 and change,very few can do that.

[Dahoss9698]

Given they came home about 37.2 in the Goodwood, she would have blown by on the outside and no one would be asking about her losing a step.

At 1 1/16, I think she's just getting running.

The race might have been run differently had she been in the Goodwood. But it begs the question...why wasn't she in the Goodwood?

[jelly]

Well ok they were insignificant horses she was facing again I guess but she is consistent against them. I'll say that. Can't knock Zen's consistency. I wish her connections did more with her talent.



I feel the same.

[KingChas]

As much as it pains me to say this, I'm fairly convinced by today's race that much like Rachel Alexandra, Zenyatta has lost a step this year compared to where she was for the Classic in 2009 and especially where she was in 2008.


I don't buy into that.

A closer running against a pedestrian pace will never be visually impressive.
Regardless of the company they are running against.

[ronsmac]

She continues to run the last 1/16 in under 6 seconds or her last 1/8 in under 12 so i'm not sure she's lost a step.

[fast4522]

Well ok they were insignificant horses she was facing again I guess but she is consistent against them. I'll say that. Can't knock Zen's consistency.

The big girl never fails to amaze me, perhaps more Significant runners did not need the money. Her running style is such that she wins with only the amount of energy she needs to spend. That being said its my guess she is more likely to come back from a race unhurt or never fully extended to the breaking point. If she is going well into Churchill and she is feeling good there is no doubt to me that she will run her eyeballs out and if she gets beat, it will not be because she was mismanaged and run anyway. She is very special and one of the great horses of my lifetime.

[jelly]

Is It true that she hasn't faced a Grade one winner this year?

[Grits]

Can someone post the video?

My mother ruined it for me. I told everyone in the world not to text me but forgot my mom

Also, Zenyatta always seems beaten in the stretch, but she pulls it out EVERYTIME!!

so happy.. 1 more..

Aren't you grown? You can't put your mama on ignore for 5 minutes?:faint:

[born2ride]

She finished the last 16th in 5 and change,very few can do that.

Try 6 and change.

[Dahoss9698]

Is It true that she hasn't faced a Grade one winner this year?

Yes, that is true. Amazing.

[SmartyLane]

At 1 1/16, I think she's just getting running.[/QUOTE]

Exactly......every time she runs 1-1/16th I am more nervous then usual. I really think her best distance is something she has never even ran at and that is over 1-1/4. These shorter races sure are nailbiters when she runs. She needs that extra distance, that is why the Classic is going to be something special.

[Stillriledup]

I don't understand why i couldnt hear the call..........i mean, when you are listening to an nfl game (for example) and the 75,000 football fans are yelling their heads off on 3rd and 14, you can hear Joe Buck and Troy Aikman crystal clear, why didn't i hear Vic, i don't understand.

[Dahoss9698]

At 1 1/16, I think she's just getting running.

Exactly......every time she runs 1-1/16th I am more nervous then usual. I really think her best distance is something she has never even ran at and that is over 1-1/4. These shorter races sure are nailbiters when she runs. She needs that extra distance, that is why the Classic is going to be something special.[/QUOTE]

There was a longer race today at Hollywood also that she could have participated in. The purse was even the same.

[tzipi]

[/b]

There was a longer race today at Hollywood also that she could have participated in. The purse was even the same.

I agree, but that race was open to males too. No way were the connections doing that with her streak. Would've been the right move but it was a given she wasn't running there.

[WinterTriangle]

tons of horses raced today, people bet on them....even smart money........and they lost. :)

That's horseracing.

Since it's so easy to win, more horseowners and bettors should be doing better--seems like it shouldn't be THAT HARD to find the best horses in a weak field? (If indeed, that is the way Zenyatta does it, to hear some of you tell it.)

Yet, so man come on here and other forums and complain about how they're not makin' money. Hmmmmmm......


There sure was a lot of $$ in the non-win pools for Zen's race. Nothing like "hoping to get lucky" as a handicapping method I guess. :)

[Dahoss9698]

Who said it was easy to win? Only a non bettor would say something like that...or act like that.

[KingChas]

The horse that won the other race today will he be in the BC Classic?

Perhaps that will settle that inuendo.

[Dahoss9698]

The horse that won the other race today will he be in the BC Classic?

Perhaps that will settle that inuendo.

I would imagine they'll ship him there and he'll be up the track. What does that have to do with anything?

[point given]

At 1 1/16, I think she's just getting running.

Exactly......every time she runs 1-1/16th I am more nervous then usual. I really think her best distance is something she has never even ran at and that is over 1-1/4. These shorter races sure are nailbiters when she runs. She needs that extra distance, that is why the Classic is going to be something special.[/QUOTE]

They were running at Hollywood which favors speed and has a short sttretch run, so even Shireffs was nervous that Switch might eke out a win as she had first run.

[bisket]

Who said it was easy to win? Only a non bettor would say something like that...or act like that.
actually i think she was aludding to the fact that your a dumbarse. although she has class, and your a claimer in every sense of the word.

[tzipi]

Since it's so easy to win, more horseowners and bettors should be doing better--seems like it shouldn't be THAT HARD to find the best horses in a weak field? (If indeed, that is the way Zenyatta does it, to hear some of you tell it.)

Yet, so man come on here and other forums and complain about how they're not makin' money. Hmmmmmm......

I don't think anyone here is saying Zens not a talent or can't do what's asked of her. If they say that, their crazy. Interms of people saying the connections winning style, yes they don't go after top fields race after race. Hey if they raced Curlin or whoever against Grade 2 and 3 horses every race, it would've been a different record for him or whoever.

There was a 1 1/8 race at Oak today with males with the same purse but the connections opted for the overmatched girls and stayed away from the males. People notice. The knocks here I see are against Zens connections, not her. How could you knock her? She does what's asked of her every race and that's great. She doesn't enter herself in races.

[Dahoss9698]

actually i think she was aludding to the fact that your a dumbarse. although she has class, and your a claimer in every sense of the word.

Coming from a mental midget like yourself that is a compliment.

[WinterTriangle]

Who said it was easy to win?

So it's NOT easy for a horse to win 19 straight?

You need to make up your mind. :D

[Dahoss9698]

So it's NOT easy for a horse to win 19 straight?

You need to make up your mind. :D

When did I say it was?

[KingChas]

I would imagine they'll ship him there and he'll be up the track. What does that have to do with anything?

Point is she is 19/19 and heading for the dirt.

Avoiding no one now. ;)

[Shelby]

I love this horse. I love how she wins. I love how she loves to win.

[Dahoss9698]

Point is she is 19/19 and heading for the dirt.

Avoiding no one now. ;)

The point is there was another race she could have run in today....her connections chose the easier race. Again.

I'm sorry you don't want to acknowledge it, but it's the truth.

[tucker6]

Avoiding no one now. ;)
About time. The connections have been avoiding real G1's for three years now.

[tzipi]

actually i think she was aludding to the fact that your a dumbarse. although she has class, and your a claimer in every sense of the word.

It's "you're", not your. Just saying.

[KingChas]

The point is there was another race she could have run in today....her connections chose the easier race. Again.

I'm sorry you don't want to acknowledge it, but it's the truth.


The truth is,the connections of Zenyatta do not have to appease anybody.

Live with it.

[Dahoss9698]

The truth is,the connections of Zenyatta do not have to appease anybody.

Live with it.

I agree. But it doesn't mean I have to pretend they haven't avoided better horses a majority of the time. You can, but some choose not to.

[letswastemoney]

The truth is,the connections of Zenyatta do not have to appease anybody.

Live with it.
That's right, no need to appease end of the year eclipse award voters.

[tzipi]

The truth is,the connections of Zenyatta do not have to appease anybody.

Live with it.

You're ABSOLUTELY right Chas. No doubt. But I'm just so glad many other past champion horses connections did appease the fans.

[Charlie D]

Wonder what horse racing would be like if other connections campaigned thier horses in a similar manner.

No races like todays JCGC until Classic i guess.

:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[Dahoss9698]

Wonder what horse racing would be like if other connections campaigned thier horses in a similar manner.

No races like todays JCGC until Classic i guess.

:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

Charlie what would it be like in Europe if the connections of Goldikova or Quija Board did the same thing?

Would the media and fans discuss it?

[KingChas]

I follow what your saying guys.

But here's reality.

If I had a horse that was 19/19 and won 6.4 million mainly in California.
I really wouldn't care what the East Coast and Internet Forums felt or said about me.
That's business.

Eclipse Voters;19/19, 19/20 or 20/20 or retired tomorrow.........
Zenyatta Wins!

[Charlie D]

Charlie what would it be like in Europe if the connections of Goldikova or Quija Board did the same thing?

Would the media and fans discuss it?

Fans would, media would probably lick ass as normal :)

[Dahoss9698]

Fans would, media would probably lick ass as normal :)

Jay Hovdey is a journalist in Europe also? ;)

[tzipi]

I follow what your saying guys.

But here's reality.

If I had a horse that was 19/19 and won 6.4 million mainly in California.
I really wouldn't care what the East Coast and Internet Forums felt or said about me.
That's business.

Eclipse Voters;19/19, 19/20 or 20/20 or retired tomorrow.........
Zenyatta Wins!

No one's disputing that. I think everyone is just commenting on the route the connections take her every race. It's not against the top horses. It's against overmatched horses. There was a 1 1/8 race there today with males. They stayed away. They know what they have, they know where to run. ALL the credit to Zen. She doesn't pick her races. She does what's asked of her everytime and does it beautifully but I think people can see where they are going and doing. But it's a different kind of racing today.

[Charlie D]

I follow what your saying guys.

But here's reality.

If I had a horse that was 19/19 and won 6.4 million mainly in California.
I really wouldn't care what the East Coast and Internet Forums felt or said about me.
That's business.

Eclipse Voters;19/19, 19/20 or 20/20 or retired tomorrow.........
Zenyatta Wins!


Royal Ascot is what it is because horses are not ducking each other. York is what is because horses are not ducking each other, Goodwood is what it is because horses are not ducking each other.

[eastie]

Try 6 and change.


try learning how to read a chart, or learning how to add there smartass. And don't be talking smack out of turn about the queen...you follow ? she came home in less than 5 1/2 seconds.

[KingChas]

Royal Ascot is what it is because horses are not ducking each other. York is what is because horses are not ducking each other, Goodwood is what it is because horses are not ducking each other.

Funny Charlie,
On this forum the word is Poly=Turf.

Why didn't anyone send over one of your great mares to knock off Zenyatta?

Or did they last year? You tell me.

[RXB]

Uh, Eastie, you might try reading that chart again, and watching the race again. Or correct your math.

[Dahoss9698]

try learning how to read a chart, or learning how to add there smartass. And don't be talking smack out of turn about the queen...you follow ? she came home in less than 5 1/2 seconds.

Classic...

[bigmack]

Classic...
I tried to tell ya about the Teamster thing

[Dahoss9698]

I tried to tell ya about the Teamster thing

:lol:

Yes you did. Point taken.

[Charlie D]

Funny Charlie,
On this forum the word is Poly=Turf.

Why didn't anyone send over one of your great mares to knock of Zenyatta?

Or did they last year? You tell me.



They don't stay in back yard like your superstar do they??

[RXB]

To be fair to Eastie, he was correct in disputing the erroneous claim that it took Z six-and-change. Just went a little overboard.

[born2ride]

try learning how to read a chart, or learning how to add there smartass. And don't be talking smack out of turn about the queen...you follow ? she came home in less than 5 1/2 seconds.

Add? You mean subtract smartass. No need to do either the chart lists the last 1/16 as 6.11. Which chart is showing her last 1/16 at 5.5 seconds?

[pandy]

I believe she ran the final 1/16 in 5.2 seconds in her last race. There's no question that her closing speed is in a area where very few horses now or ever could duplicate. On my computer system she has the strongest Kick ratings of any horse since I started using the system back in 1996, by far.

[KingChas]

They don't stay in back yard like your superstar do they??

I like that Charlie,
They say she is too slow to be great.
But she is a "Superstar". ;)

[Charlie D]

Stop believing the hype - she is just a good horse. There will be another one along in 2011, just like there was one or two in 2009, 2008, 2007 etc etc.

[born2ride]

I believe she ran the final 1/16 in 5.2 seconds in her last race. There's no question that her closing speed is in a area where very few horses now or ever could duplicate. On my computer system she has the strongest Kick ratings of any horse since I started using the system back in 1996, by far.

5.97. She has a strong late kick that few could duplicate or match, but then again there aren't many true deep closers like her to measure against.

[cj]

Add? You mean subtract smartass. No need to do either the chart lists the last 1/16 as 6.11. Which chart is showing her last 1/16 at 5.5 seconds?

Well, the chart is for the leader. She wasn't the leader with a 1/16 to go. There is no call with a 1/16 to go, so you really can't get the winner's last 1/16 from the chart. Who really cares anyway?

[cj]

5.97. She has a strong late kick that few could duplicate or match, but then again there aren't many true deep closers like her to measure against.

Again, how is anyone measuring last 1/16ths, especially to that precision?

[rstone]

Regardless of the schedule she has ran so far this year and the competition level, the Classic will be where we really see if she's still got it like she had it last year.

If she wins the Classic again, there won't be any legitimate talking points to put her down with, it's going to be a pretty good field and her greatness will be undeniable.

If she loses the Classic, it will raise many questions about where to rank her overall, though she still accomplished an amazing feat to this point.

For me personally, I'm just glad I get to watch a horse like this run, any time there is doubt in my mind whether it be halfway down the stretch tonight, or in the Clement Hirsch last year, or before going to the window at the BC Classic last year, hell, even on the far turn in the Classic last year, she ends up erasing that doubt. Being a closer, she is more susceptible to bad trips(like the classic) or not having a legitimate pace to run at(which happens to her often), and she still wins, which is what truly amazes me about her.

[WJ47]

Every time she runs I don't think she's going to get up there in time. Every time I'm moaning and clutching my heart with chest pains screaming, "OMG, she's gonna get beat!" Then she manages to win. I love how she just gets up in the final yards. I love how she paws the ground and marches around; she seems very intelligent for a horse.

I know many people doubt her because she's only raced on synthetics and the quality of the competition she's faced is questionable, but I think that she's great for racing. It's such a thrill when she runs. :) I put $2 to place on the other four horses in the race when I saw the bridgejumping in the place pool and then wildly cheered for Zenyatta to win!

I do have doubts of how she will do in Kentucky when she faces the likes of Blame, Lookin At Lucky and Quality Road. I'd love to see her win it and retire undefeated.

[Charlie D]

think that she's great for racing


Can't argue with above and you'd have to be mad to think good horses were not great for racing.

[Tom]

Wonder what horse racing would be like if other connections campaigned thier horses in a similar manner.

No races like todays JCGC until Classic i guess.

:ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

If they come up with one who can win 19 in a row, they an handle him anyway they feel like. Today's JCGC was a real yawner. At least there was some action on the left coast.

[Tom]

Stop believing the hype - she is just a good horse. There will be another one along in 2011, just like there was one or two in 2009, 2008, 2007 etc etc.

I dunno...I don't remember one like her since Cigar. And, no offense to Cigar, but he was boring as all hell. Vanilla Champion.

[Charlie D]

If they come up with one who can win 19 in a row, they an handle him anyway they feel like. Today's JCGC was a real yawner. At least there was some action on the left coast.


Just read JCGC day handle was up 19.7% and attendance was up 38% on last year, so it can't have been that boring Tom.


I dunno...I don't remember one like her since Cigar



C'mon, your a decent capper from what i've seen and i think you know she has been beating tomato cans on her way to 19-0

[Tom]

Attendance is hardy exciting. Watching an alleged Gr1 field all failing to lift a hoof at any point in the race except one NY Bred is hardly a race for the ages. talk about tomato cans. The JCG was a showcase for mediocrity.

and,


Not the point at all. The only horse in recent years to give me a thrill like Zenn was Rachel's Woodward and, of course Invasor, but he was thee best!
Racing has been pretty absent of what I would call good horses for a long time now. The idea of betting a Zennyatta race never occurred to me.

[Charlie D]

I understand what your sating regarding thrill Tom. Horse like Zen, Rachel etc do make you tune in.

[Charlie D]

On sayig that though i'd sooner watch a race where decent or good horses are racing each other (JCGC) than a good horse beating up inferior in nearly evey race as latter can get a bit of a snooze fest sometimes.

[Tom]

Exactly, while cards like today's Belmont make me tune out.
I found the Pen National card much better.;)

[Charlie D]

Be very boring Tom if we were all same.

[WinterTriangle]

Today's JCGC was a real yawner.

since they've shortened it so many times now, it shouldn't even be a G1 race AFAIC. Surely different than when it was 2 miles, or even 1-1/2. No sense in breeding Kelso's anymore that's for sure.

[WinterTriangle]

Regardless of the schedule she has ran so far this year and the competition level

You guys make it sound like all the horses here in the US are running at killer competition levels and schedules. :D

They aren't.

And 100% of them still can't win 19 in a row.

Heck, most of them can't win 1/2 that, 9 in a row, or even 5 in a row. :lol:


If Zen's connections are doing something so outrageous, you'd think other horsemen would get a clue. Oh wait, they must be against making that *easy* $5 or $6 million, right?

[Dahoss9698]

It's been shortened twice since it's inaugural running in 1919. Once in 1976 from 2 miles to 12 furlongs. Then in 1990 to 10 furlongs. Two changes in 90 plus years is "so many"?

But yeah, a race that has seen Pleasant Tap, Colonial Affair, Cigar, Mineshaft, Bernardini, Curlin, etc win it since it's been 10 furlongs shouldn't really be a grade 1. Listed stake maybe or should they just run it as an optional claimer?

[Greyfox]

I follow what your saying guys.

But here's reality.

If I had a horse that was 19/19 and won 6.4 million mainly in California.
I really wouldn't care what the East Coast and Internet Forums felt or said about me.
That's business.



:ThmbUp: Exactly. If she were easy picken's, the money was there for the East Coasters to come out and try on several occasions. The fact that they don't speaks volumes. In the meanwhile, you are exactly right, that's business.
And smart business at that.

[Dahoss9698]

:ThmbUp: Exactly. If she were easy picken's, the money was there for the East Coasters to come out and try on several occasions. The fact that they don't speaks volumes. In the meanwhile, you are exactly right, that's business.
And smart business at that.

Yeah, let's just ignore that whole surface thing. Makes a lot of sense for dirt horses to ship to run on that surface.

[Nitro]

I really feel for you people who fail to recognize exceptional quality, consistent soundness, and most of all - perfection! Its been happening right in front of your eyes for the past 3 years, and all you can clamor about is a supposed “lack of competition”, “lack of speed”, and even “running on just the synthetics”. I believe that most astute handicapper’s know that top quality horse’s have that intangible called “heart” that numbers guys still can’t figure out. That willingness to do whatever it takes to win is there on occasion for many horses running at any level of competition, but for an animal to demonstrate it each and every time they run is an exceptional quality.

Some of the naysayers complain about a light racing schedule in one breath and then point to horses that can miraculously win 3rd time off a lay-off. Well if they’re so good why can’t they win right off that layoff, particularly when facing lesser competition? Then after they finally win, they’re worried about the so-called “bounce” in the next race. Why? Did their winning race a month ago take too much out of them? Why hasn’t that happened to Zanyetta? It’s just possible because she’s something very special, and fortunately her connections have known that for quite sometime.

Some have even suggested that she’s “lost a step” this year when compared to last, because her workouts are not as fast. Well I sure hope you enjoyed her workout in the Ladies Secret for the big one next month?!

Most might agree that great horses can run well on any surface. Sure they might prefer one over another. But if as Bob Baffert has suggested that Zanyetta is even much faster on the dirt, then I would say that the “boys” will have their hands full trying to avoid being run down (once again) by this amazing horse. Win or lose, the one thing we can all count on is seeing her give it her all in an attempt to make horseracing history. I wish her and the connections all the luck, and thank them for consistently thinking about their horse’s well being over the course of the entire racing campaign

[BluegrassProf]

I really feel for you people who fail to recognize exceptional quality, consistent soundness, and most of all - perfection! Its been happening right in front of your eyes for the past 3 years, and all you can clamor about is a supposed “lack of competition”, “lack of speed”, and even “running on just the synthetics”. I believe that most astute handicapper’s know that top quality horse’s have that intangible called “heart” that numbers guys still can’t figure out. That willingness to do whatever it takes to win is there on occasion for many horses running at any level of competition, but for an animal to demonstrate it each and every time they run is an exceptional quality.

Some of the naysayers complain about a light racing schedule in one breath and then point to horses that can miraculously win 3rd time off a lay-off. Well if they’re so good why can’t they win right off that layoff, particularly when facing lesser competition? Then after they finally win, they’re worried about the so-called “bounce” in the next race. Why? Did their winning race a month ago take too much out of them? Why hasn’t that happened to Zanyetta? It’s just possible because she’s something very special, and fortunately her connections have known that for quite sometime.

Some have even suggested that she’s “lost a step” this year when compared to last, because her workouts are not as fast. Well I sure hope you enjoyed her workout in the Ladies Secret for the big one next month?!

Most might agree that great horses can run well on any surface. Sure they might prefer one over another. But if as Bob Baffert has suggested that Zanyetta is even much faster on the dirt, then I would say that the “boys” will have their hands full trying to avoid being run down (once again) by this amazing horse. Win or lose, the one thing we can all count on is seeing her give it her all in an attempt to make horseracing history. I wish her and the connections all the luck, and thank them for consistently thinking about their horse’s well being over the course of the entire racing campaignHaaaa! From the points you make to the quotation marks around phrases like “lack of competition”, “lack of speed”, and “running on just the synthetics," your post is so grotesquely cliche that it looks a bit like Onion-esque satire (which I'm pretty sure it's not intended to be). :D

Srrriously - read it out loud in a sarcastic tone and you'll totally see it. Luvs! :ThmbUp:


Again, congrats to the connections on the win...all that stuff up there = pretty unnecessary.

[Nitro]

Haaaa! From the points you make to the quotation marks around phrases like “lack of competition”, “lack of speed”, and “running on just the synthetics," your post is so grotesquely cliche that it looks a bit like Onion-esque satire (which I'm pretty sure it's not intended to be). :D

Srrriously - read it out loud in a sarcastic tone and you'll totally see it. Luvs! :ThmbUp:


Again, congrats to the connections on the win...all that stuff up there = pretty unnecessary. Sir the only thing that’s “satirical” as far as I’m concerned is your grotesquely inadequate response. Apparently the truth hurts! Nothing I’ve mentioned is sarcastic in the least particularly when contemplating the many the negative comments referenced by " " made on this forum.

Might I suggest that rather then reading my comments out loud, that you try reading them slowly. Perhaps then it might register more clearly.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes, that is true. Amazing.And this sad fact is exactly why I feel the way I do about her. To coin Ron Ellis, it's actually pretty sick.

Watching Zenyatta this year has been like watching pre-season baseball. Grapefruit league stuff.

Wake me when she's in the gate at Churchill against actual grade 1 winners and I'll start to get excited.

[PaceAdvantage]

Attendance is hardy exciting. Watching an alleged Gr1 field all failing to lift a hoof at any point in the race except one NY Bred is hardly a race for the ages. talk about tomato cans. The JCG was a showcase for mediocrity.You disappoint.

Give me Haynesfield crushing a field of Grade 1 winners any day, over Zenyatta beating up on little leaguers just to pad some silly streak so that she can become the new Peppers Pride.

[PaceAdvantage]

since they've shortened it so many times now, it shouldn't even be a G1 race AFAIC.Wow.

[tucker6]

Stop believing the hype - she is just a good horse. There will be another one along in 2011, just like there was one or two in 2009, 2008, 2007 etc etc.A refreshingly on topic post Charlie. Regardless of record, she is just a good horse, not a great one. Neither side will ever convince the other, but The 2010 BCC surely will. I'm still waiting for her sudden retirement before the BCC though.

[GARY Z]

I've already posted an earlier thread expressing my thoughts about
the weakness of the field in The Lady's Secret and the issues of
pace , which despite the lower level of competition in yesterday's
race(as against the Goodwood) seemed to favor Switch.

Sure,, I bet Switch and took a loss, but I still question why
Z was not entered in the Goodwood.

Start the drumrolls, since this thread should set off sparks. :eek:

As an owner and entered in the BC Classic, and (still ?)trying to prove
your Horse deserved the Eclipse award over Rachel, why not
risk it all and run in the Goodwood against better horses(GRADE I),
and may get a perk by scaring off some of the opposition in the Classic
if you won the Goodwood?

Granted, one can argue you take the chips off the table with
a relatively easy race /work out against lesser opposition
as a prep/work out for the Classic in an effort to get win #19.

Remember, Switch was going 1 1/4 in TLS, an untested
distance for the filly , and a distance favoring Zenyatta who had
won at this distance. I credit John Sadler for his confidence in
taking on Z despite the age and earnings difference.

The flip is the Goodwood was 9 fg, and a speedball likeTwirling
Candy, running unchecked would place Z's win record at risk.


While both races were stamped as Grade I, the caliber of
horse running in the Goodwood was superior to TLS.

I have to discredit the connections of Z for not stepping
up to meet this challenge, and/or Hol Park for running
both races on the same day.

It obviously would have been more interesting were
TLS distance were at 9 fg, but regardless, it appears
Z's connection took the easier route to secure win #19.

Hate to start this issue again , but Rachel and her connections
took on all the competition at all levels of competition ,track
distance and surface, which supported her being voted
the Eclipse winner .

For the reasons stated above,I still believe Rachel is
the superior horse, regardless of not winning with dramatic
finshes ot having a 19 race win streak.

[gm10]

I've already posted an earlier thread expressing my thoughts about
the weakness of the field in The Lady's Secret and the issues of
pace , which despite the lower level of competition in yesterday's
race(as against the Goodwood) seemed to favor Switch.

Sure,, I bet Switch and took a loss, but I still question why
Z was not entered in the Goodwood.

Start the drumrolls, since this thread should set off sparks. :eek:

As an owner and entered in the BC Classic, and (still ?)trying to prove
your Horse deserved the Eclipse award over Rachel, why not
risk it all and run in the Goodwood against better horses(GRADE I),
and may get a perk by scaring off some of the opposition in the Classic
if you won the Goodwood?

Granted, one can argue you take the chips off the table with
a relatively easy race /work out against lesser opposition
as a prep/work out for the Classic in an effort to get win #19.

Remember, Switch was going 1 1/4 in TLS, an untested
distance for the filly , and a distance favoring Zenyatta who had
won at this distance. I credit John Sadler for his confidence in
taking on Z despite the age and earnings difference.

The flip is the Goodwood was 9 fg, and a speedball likeTwirling
Candy, running unchecked would place Z's win record at risk.


While both races were stamped as Grade I, the caliber of
horse running in the Goodwood was superior to TLS.

I have to discredit the connections of Z for not stepping
up to meet this challenge, and/or Hol Park for running
both races on the same day.

It obviously would have been more interesting were
TLS distance were at 9 fg, but regardless, it appears
Z's connection took the easier route to secure win #19.

Hate to start this issue again , but Rachel and her connections
took on all the competition at all levels of competition ,track
distance and surface, which supported her being voted
the Eclipse winner .

For the reasons stated above,I still believe Rachel is
the superior horse, regardless of not winning with dramatic
finshes ot having a 19 race win streak.

No doubt RA had a tougher campaign last year, but look at what it did to her. She ended up being a wonder-filly for 6 months but as a 4yo never did anything of the same level that Zenyatta has shown for three years in a row. Based on their total careers, I'd make Z the superior animal, and Moss/Sherrifs the vastly superior owner/trainer.

[Charlie D]

Beating up tomato cans so you get 19 wins makes you a superior animal and superior owners and trainers.

Interesting way of handicapping.

[Greyfox]

I've already posted an earlier thread expressing my thoughts about
.

Your earlier post was entitled Zenyatta's 19 th Win.
This one is entitled Zenyatta and the 19 th win.
How many posts do you need to start on Zenyatta?? Enough already.

[OTM Al]

I'm just glad that screaming fat guy in the tank top from the Youtube clip was there to see her win today....the new face of racing

[FenceBored]

A refreshingly on topic post Charlie. Regardless of record, she is just a good horse, not a great one. Neither side will ever convince the other, but The 2010 BCC surely will. I'm still waiting for her sudden retirement before the BCC though.

You're INSANE! You're CRAZY!

{now, if it happens you can say somebody flamed you, calling you crazy for predicting it :) }

[KingChas]

You're ABSOLUTELY right Chas. No doubt. But I'm just so glad many other past champion horses connections did appease the fans.

Are you sure about that?

How many 3 year olds with potential are retired after the Triple Crown trail with no injuries,strictly for business reasons?
The list is too long to mention.

You would not have liked to seen Secretariat run at 4?
Though some will say he had nothing more too prove which is true,we were definately robbed of much more enjoyment from these early retirements for years on end.

[jognlope]

Vic's call was great ZENYATTA!!!!!!

[cj]

The Lady's Secret was not at 1 1/4. Not sure how you could miss that very large mistake.

[BluegrassProf]

Sir the only thing that’s “satirical” as far as I’m concerned is your grotesquely inadequate response. Apparently the truth hurts! Nothing I’ve mentioned is sarcastic in the least particularly when contemplating the many the negative comments referenced by " " made on this forum.

Might I suggest that rather then reading my comments out loud, that you try reading them slowly. Perhaps then it might register more clearly. My man, you just keep fitting the bill SO perfectly. Luuuuvs! :D

There's no need for any add'l re-reading, slow or otherwise. Your post - and even the whole "the truth hurtz!" sorta response...awesome! - is, without exception, the exact same old empty rhetorical silliness that's been popping up here and there for months. I mean, for crying out loud, man; look at all the other stuff being talked about here...divisive as it might be, at least it's somwhat substantive, rather than the whole "'speed' and 'competition' are laaaaame-o! sorry yous just don't get it, astoopidhead numberluvers!" thang. All that funk is just completely unnecessary. And hot damn, is it ever old, old, ooooold.

This is NOT an anti-Zen thing; not by a long shot. It's an anti-waste-of-thread-space thing. By all means, debate and agitate. But not like that. For everyone's own good, not like that.

[Deepsix]

Nitro, I'm thinking the Prof is giving you a 'needs improvment' IF you want to get a good grade in his class. Personally, I found no particular fault with your post and in fact thought it read rather well.

[OverlayHunter]

For the reasons stated above,I still believe Rachel is
the superior horse, regardless of not winning with dramatic
finshes ot having a 19 race win streak.

I'm close to gm10 on this one though I haven't an opinion on the owner/trainer issue.

Taken on balance I'd have to say Rachel earned HOY last year but to declare unqualified superiority when RA was stellar primarily for 1 season vs. Z's several years of races does not make sense to me.

I have a lot of respect for Charlie D's opinions and can't deny many of her Grade 1's were Grade 1's in name only but winning the Classic last year shows her talent. She doesn't fit the mold but she amazes (and scares) me every time she runs. I'll be rootin' for her in November.

[joanied]

I think 5 years from now people will be wondering when we'll see another Zenyatta...someone mentioned to me that she is "a force of nature"...and IMO, that's a good way to describe this mare.
She gave me another heart attack yesterday...and regardless of the competition she's faced in CA., everyone that is into racing feels the same thing at about the 1/8th pole...or even the 16th...will she get there?? And THAT makes her races exciting:jump: Did you hear Vic's call...he was so excited that his voice went up a few octaves as she passed switch:D

I'm sure not going to get into the who has she beat thing...it's so old now, I'm tired of it...
I feel blessed to have been around to see her...and racing has been blessed to have had her.

I can't wait until the Classic...I can't wait for the results to finally quiet the doubters...but hey, when she wins the thing, I suppose we'll still have some that will find something wrong with it:bang: ...

Someone once said, ya can't win 'em all....but forgot to tell that to Zenyatta!!

[Stillriledup]

Vic's call was great ZENYATTA!!!!!!

Never heard the call and i'm not sure why.

[Beachbabe]

I believe the phrase "tomato cans" has suffered from overuse.
What may have sounded "cool" at one time it has now lost any effectiveness it once enjoyed. It's like the term "dude".

How about, "peanut butter jars" ??

[cj]

I believe the phrase "tomato cans" has suffered from overuse.
What may have sounded "cool" at one time it has now lost any effectiveness it once enjoyed. It's like the term "dude".

How about, "peanut butter jars" ??

Nah, tomato cans still rocks.

[joanied]

Never heard the call and i'm not sure why.

The crowd drowned it out...no one heard it, so on TVG they played it again after the race so it could be heard...Vic did a good job, and he got so excited, and maybe emotional knowing he won't get to call Zenny again...that as Zen passed switch, his voice went up a few octaves...
maybe you can hear it on the replay posted.

[startngate]

Hate to start this issue again , but Rachel and her connections took on all the competition at all levels of competition ,track distance and surface, which supported her being voted the Eclipse winner .

Uh, no she didn't ... she was conspicuously absent at the Breeders' Cup, and never tried 1 1/4 until her last start at 4 ... which she lost in a manner that leads many to believe she couldn't get the distance.

Don't get me wrong, she's a great filly and her 3yo campaign was one of the best by a filly (although I still think Winning Colors was better). Personally, I think had the two met, Zenyatta wins the race ... even on dirt. I also hope Zen wins the BC this year and then the debate can officially be over as to which one was the better horse.

[Beachbabe]

Uh, no she didn't ... she was conspicuously absent at the Breeders' Cup, and never tried 1 1/4 until her last start at 4 ... which she lost in a manner that leads many to believe she couldn't get the distance.

Don't get me wrong, she's a great filly and her 3yo campaign was one of the better by a filly (although I still think Winning Colors was better). Personally, I think had the two met, Zenyatta wins the race ... even on dirt. I also hope Zen wins the BC this year and then the debate can officially be over as to which one was the better horse.


wishful thinking !!!!

[cj]

The crowd drowned it out...no one heard it, so on TVG they played it again after the race so it could be heard...Vic did a good job, and he got so excited, and maybe emotional knowing he won't get to call Zenny again...that as Zen passed switch, his voice went up a few octaves...
maybe you can hear it on the replay posted.

Call me skeptical, but something was very fishy about that crowd noise.

[Charlie D]

I also hope Zen wins the BC this year and then the debate can officially be over as to which one was the better horse.

Only time a debate can be over is when there is conclusive evidence to swing it in favour one way . This one will always remain inconclusive due to these horses not being given the opportunity to prove who was the better horse.


All other thought is purely subjective opinion.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

Zenyatta may win HOY even with a loss in the BCC...

[cj]

Zenyatta may win HOY even with a loss in the BCC...

That would be truly sad.

[Stillriledup]

The crowd drowned it out...no one heard it, so on TVG they played it again after the race so it could be heard...Vic did a good job, and he got so excited, and maybe emotional knowing he won't get to call Zenny again...that as Zen passed switch, his voice went up a few octaves...
maybe you can hear it on the replay posted.

How come then, when an NFL game has 75,000 fans screaming DEFENSE on top of their lungs, i can hear Joe Buck and Troy Aikman crystal clear? I have to imagine that 75k football fans are louder than 15,000 or so zenyatta fans, no?

[Phantombridgejumpe]

give it to?

I don't have a quick answer, that means it could (not saying should...) be her.

[johnhannibalsmith]

give it to?

I don't have a quick answer, that means it could (not saying should...) be her.

I suppose Lookin At Lucky would qualify as an upset winner (a la anyone not named Zenyatta) and with said win, ole' Lucky would probably have enough credentials to deserve the award in the eyes of most true-blooded Zenyatta fans.

[keithw84]

How come then, when an NFL game has 75,000 fans screaming DEFENSE on top of their lungs, i can hear Joe Buck and Troy Aikman crystal clear? I have to imagine that 75k football fans are louder than 15,000 or so zenyatta fans, no?

Maybe Zenyatta just has that transcendent effect on the ability of the human voice.

[Grits]

I believe the phrase "tomato cans" has suffered from overuse.

Beach, the racehorse term, "tomato cans" has created some of our greatest moments at this messageboard.

And will, most likely, always remain a fond part of PA, and this is as it should be, given it was born here.

Just the image alone--all of 'em strung out down the backside, through the turn, backing up, or climbing in the stretch--is priceless. Often, hilarious.

The only problem one can foresee . . . . if the racecallers begin to borrow it.

[startngate]

Only time a debate can be over is when there is conclusive evidence to swing it in favour one way . And a 2 time Breeders' Cup winning mare wouldn't end the debate? Tough crowd.

[tucker6]

And a 2 time Breeders' Cup winning mare wouldn't end the debate? Tough crowd.It would end the debate for this contrarian. However, I have no expectation that I'll have to get out my fork and knife and eat any crow. If she finishes fourth or better, I'll give her props.

[5k-claim]

Beating up tomato cans so you get 19 wins makes you a superior animal and superior owners and trainers.

Interesting way of handicapping.

I don't know about "beating up tomato cans", but sending a mare out 19 times and coming back 19 times a winner with a happy, healthy horse that is now held together well enough to compete in the nation's richest race at age 6 and add to her already record $6,334,296 in earnings is absolutely a superior training job. As a matter of fact, it is technically perfect.

I admire the work Shirreffs and his barn have done, and will be pulling for them to get this next one with Z in November.

[cpitt84]

I don't know about "beating up tomato cans", but sending a mare out 19 times and coming back 19 times a winner with a happy, healthy horse that is now held together well enough to compete in the nation's richest race at age 6 and add to her already record $6,334,296 in earnings is absolutely a superior training job. As a matter of fact, it is technically perfect.

I admire the work Shirreffs and his barn have done, and will be pulling for them to get this next one with Z in November.

exactly! great post!

[johnhannibalsmith]

...I admire the work Shirreffs and his barn have done...

Add in the fact that he (and the Mosseses and Zenyatta) may be collectively responsible for Cal racing's decline to be merely incremental (with the Cal or bust! motto) and even if you (understandably) have no respect for the aggression (lack thereof) of the campaign, the way he's gotten a mare to be both consistent and have a fairly long shelf life all the while keeping Cal racing relevant...

(obligatory parenthesis)

...pretty decent stuff even if it isn't your cup of tea in terms of crowning a champion....

[5k-claim]

...pretty decent stuff even if it isn't your cup of tea in terms of crowning a champion....

I definitely thought RA was deserving of her HOY award. She is who I would have voted for if anyone had asked me. (Alas, no one did.)

I am just talking about the getting up every morning and being responsible for this giant mare in your barn aspect of it.

It has been a heck of a training job. The entire barn should be very proud, as I am sure they are.

[WinterTriangle]

sending a mare out 19 times and coming back 19 times a winner with a happy, healthy horse that is now held together well enough to compete in the nation's richest race at age 6 and add to her already record $6,334,296 in earnings is absolutely a superior training job.

Yes.

Yeah, let's just ignore that whole surface thing.

No, let's not.

You didn't like the premise that other horsemen should have Zenyatta's success if it's so *easy*.

Let's move on to another premise: A surface specialist should be able to consistently win over their prefered surface. One of the claims about Zen is that she's "just a synth specialist".

So------let's discuss "dirt specialists" in today's racing environment. Which ones have 19 wins consequetive wins over *their* surface? Do I hear 18? 16? How about 14?

(Unless you wish claim that every single dirt horse in North America is racing in killer tough races--- every race, for their entire careers--- and/or their connections are just into "pleasing the fans" and challenge, and certainly not into making $5 or 6 million or winning.:D )

Because it really should happen a lot more often, pulling up the race records of so many horses in North America. I mean, one would almost believe horsemen are *avoiding* such easy success.

[Cratos]

The race might have been run differently had she been in the Goodwood. But it begs the question...why wasn't she in the Goodwood?

No, the question is: "Why should she have been in the Goodwood?"

[eastie]

Again, how is anyone measuring last 1/16ths, especially to that precision?


the mile time was 1:36.87 the final time was 1:42.98. she was 3 lenths behind and won the race. the hoss that got beat ran just over 6 seconds and she closed 3 lengths. if a length is a fifth...do the math. and that last 1/16 number is a big number to look at. especially for me in 2 year old races. 6.0 or 6.1. = very good. 6.4 or 7 = very bad.

[RXB]

the mile time was 1:36.78 the final time was 1:42.87. she was 3 lenths behind and won the race. the hoss that got beat ran just over 6 seconds and she closed 3 lengths. if a length is a fifth...do the math. and that last 1/16 number is a big number to look at. especially for me in 2 year old races. 6.0 or 6.1. = very good. 6.4 or 7 = very bad.

Three lengths behind at the 1/8th pole, not the 1/16th pole.

[cj]

the mile time was 1:36.87 the final time was 1:42.98. she was 3 lenths behind and won the race. the hoss that got beat ran just over 6 seconds and she closed 3 lengths. if a length is a fifth...do the math. and that last 1/16 number is a big number to look at. especially for me in 2 year old races. 6.0 or 6.1. = very good. 6.4 or 7 = very bad.

I know how to read a chart. Your skills are, apparently, dubious at best.

[WinterTriangle]

I bet Switch and took a loss
So you thought Switch was a good horse, enough to put your hard earned money on her?

, but I still question why Z was not entered in the Goodwood.

Start the drumrolls, since this thread should set off sparks. :eek:

No sparks.

You don't gut your BCC runner 30 days before one of the biggest races of the year. A good horseman keeps the horse in racing condition, which is what they're doing.

By the way, where's Quality Road? He will enter the BCC off 60 days unraced? Just wondering why you didn't ask about him.

[cj]

So you thought Switch was a good horse, enough to put your hard earned money on her?



No sparks.

You don't gut your BCC runner 30 days before one of the biggest races of the year. A good horseman keeps the horse in racing condition, which is what they're doing.

By the way, where's Quality Road? He will enter the BCC off 60 days unraced? Just wondering why you didn't ask about him.

Running against Richard's Kid an extra 110 yards is gutting your horse? WOW!

[tucker6]

You don't gut your BCC runner 30 days before one of the biggest races of the year. A good horseman keeps the horse in racing condition, which is what they're doing. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your quote, but you do realize that in the 1970's, top level horses may have run another race or two between now and the BCC date. I'm not sure why some believe a big race 40 days out is "gutting" a horse. I guess I have more confidence in the durability of the breed to withstand a little running than some on here.

[tucker6]

Running against Richard's Kid an extra 110 yards is gutting your horse? WOW!I know. It was a WOW moment for me as well.

[jelly]

What are the odds that zenyatta will never run in the Breeders Cup Classic?


Anybody?

[WinterTriangle]

in the 1970's, top level horses may have run another race or two between now and the BCC date.

Tucker, that was 30 years ago. Racing aint' what it used to be.

there is no sense taking that out on Zenyatta only. Horses aren't run that way anymore. If you find one who is, nominate them for HOY.

QR isn't racing.

Don't use one horse to grind your axe when it's an epidemic.

So.......what horses now, in 2010, who are running in the BCC, are going to get TWO races in before the BCC? Please clue me in so I can watch.

One of the things that annoys me in general, not just in racing, is people whining about "how it was 30 years ago." We don't live then, we live now. Being flexible and coping with change is psychologically necessary. History moves on, with or without us. You either swim in the stream of it, or you get left behind.

[KingChas]

Geez,I dun thought she kicked Richard's Kids ass previously?

Why go out of your division (F&M) for the same price, in a prep before the biggest race of the year?

Why squeeze the lemon dry?
Maybe some of you business men should ask Rachel's connections that.

[tucker6]

Tucker, that was 30 years ago. Racing aint' what it used to be.
The answer is that trainer's ain't what they used to be. The horses are just fine, but the connections are now in it for the money and not the prestige. Therefore, horses are seen more now as investments to be coddled than an extension of their owner's sporting ego. If you don't train the horses adequately, they won't be able to race inside 30 days. It's pitiful really.

[RXB]

You know, I don't recall Go For Wand racing against male horses.

Personal Ensign only ran once against males-- against exactly two rivals (Gulch, a sprinter-miler and King's Swan, whose only Gr 1 win was a few years earlier in a sprint). Her only trips outside of NY, unless my memory fails me, were for the BC Distaff at Churchill and once to Monmouth (not exactly a long haul from NYC).

So, if shipping and running repeatedly against top-flight male competition are the true arbiters of filly greatness, I guess I have to remove the aforementioned two from my list. Silly me for including them in the first place.

[WinterTriangle]

The answer is that trainer's ain't what they used to be. The horses are just fine, but the connections are now in it for the money and not the prestige.

Well then that just begs the question I asked previously, that if it is all about making money, then why aren't all the dirt specialists and turf specialists winning 19 consequetive for their connections who want to win and make $$$$?

On your philosophical point, you'll get no argument. ;) Everything, not just racing is like that now.

I am just not a person who wastes time thinking about 30 years ago. I was 20 years old then! Lots of things were better then, but it may have been because I was 20. :lol:

[Cratos]

Three lengths behind at the 1/8th pole, not the 1/16th pole.

That is correct, but the eighth pole was the one mile marker of the race and she covered the last sixteenth in a sizzling 5.609 seconds. Also, if you extrapolate her time out to 1 1/4 miles it becomes 2:00.397; not bad for a 6yo mare who has lost a "step."

[RXB]

It was a 1 1/16 race, not 1 1/8 race.

[cj]

That is correct, but the eighth pole was the one mile marker of the race and she covered the last sixteenth in a sizzling 5.609 seconds.

I see I need to conduct a chart reading class at PA.

[Cratos]

I see I need to conduct a chart reading class at PA.

Yes, but only for you to read. This is not about chart reading, but about simple arithmetic; no wonder this sport is dying, the “know it alls” are killing it with their preposterous knowledge of nothing. .

[RXB]

Sorry, Cratos, but you really need to rethink what you just said.

[cj]

You can't do the math if you can't read the chart.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by tucker6
The answer is that trainer's ain't what they used to be. The horses are just fine, but the connections are now in it for the money and not the prestige.


I agree, it is today's trainers, not the horses. Long layoffs, slow paces, short workouts....they are afraid to use the horses. Blame 8 weeks off, he deserved to lose, ditto QR come the BC. TLG talked a bit about this on the telecast Saturday. There was a long discussion on Byk's show one day at Toga.

[Tom]

The stretch call is with one furlong remaining.

[cj]

The stretch call is with one furlong remaining.

Tom,

You are excused from class.

[cj]

...the “know it alls” are killing it with their preposterous knowledge of nothing. .

Wow, talk about pot and kettle.

[Tom]

Tom,

You are excused from class.

Thank you, Sir...enjoy your apple! :D

[Cratos]

Sorry, Cratos, but you really need to rethink what you just said.

I re-read my post and what I said about the eighth pole being the mile marker of the 1 1/16th mile race was incorrect and I thank you for pointing out my mistake because the eighth pole is always 1/8 mile from the finish (as Tom stated) and it only becomes the mile marker in an one mile and one-eighth race.

However the original calculations that I made from the Equibase charts are correct because Equibase have Zenyatta 3 lengths behind at the 1 mile marker and according to them the mile went in 1:36.86.

If you convert her lengths behind to time increments you will get conversion factor *lengths = time.

I happen to use .167/length as my conversion factor and therefore her time for the 1 mile point of the race would be (3*.167) + !:36.86 = 1:37.361 and subtracting that from Equibase final time of 1:42.97 you will get 5.609 seconds for Zenyatta’s final 1/16th mile of the race.

Another way of calculating her time would be to take Equibase given 6.11 time for the race’s final 1/16th mile minus the conversion factor *lengths behind. If you use a different conversion factor the last 1/16th mile time would be different.

[Dahoss9698]

No, let's not.

You didn't like the premise that other horsemen should have Zenyatta's success if it's so *easy*.

Let's move on to another premise: A surface specialist should be able to consistently win over their prefered surface. One of the claims about Zen is that she's "just a synth specialist".

So------let's discuss "dirt specialists" in today's racing environment. Which ones have 19 wins consequetive wins over *their* surface? Do I hear 18? 16? How about 14?

(Unless you wish claim that every single dirt horse in North America is racing in killer tough races--- every race, for their entire careers--- and/or their connections are just into "pleasing the fans" and challenge, and certainly not into making $5 or 6 million or winning.:D )

Because it really should happen a lot more often, pulling up the race records of so many horses in North America. I mean, one would almost believe horsemen are *avoiding* such easy success.

No, I didn't like that you made up that I said it was easy. I never said it was. But you knew that. I'm not sure why you continue to make things up, but I think I know why.

Let's put it this way. Commentator is probably the best NY Bred of all time. Wouldn't it have been pretty easy for Zito to keep Commentator in NY Bred races? Does anyone think he wouldn't have finished with an undefeated record if he ran exclusively in NY Bred races?

But his connections has guts. They weren't ego driven.

[RXB]

I re-read my post and what I said about the eighth pole being the mile marker of the 1 1/16th mile race was incorrect and I thank you for pointing out my mistake because the eighth pole is always 1/8 mile from the finish (as Tom stated) and it only becomes the mile marker in an one mile and one-eighth race.

However the original calculations that I made from the Equibase charts are correct because Equibase have Zenyatta 3 lengths behind at the 1 mile marker and according to them the mile went in 1:36.86.


I watched the replay a couple of times last night and I would say that Z was 1 - 1.5 lengths behind at the 1/16th pole. We can't tell exactly because of the angle, but I think it's a reasonable estimate. No way she was still three lengths back at the 1/16th. I'd say she ran the last sixteenth in about 5.8 - 5.9 seconds.

What charts are these of Equibase's that say where the horses are positioned at exactly one mile in a 8.5f race? I've never heard of that.

[Dahoss9698]

No, the question is: "Why should she have been in the Goodwood?"

No the question is why do you think you are so smart when no one else does?

[Tom]

They don't.

[MNslappy]

Just imagine if she was going into the Classic off consecutive wins in the Pacific Classic and the Goodwood. Wow. Could've happened had they had a little more guts, cared a little less about the streak. I just can't get over the "what might have been" thing with her. And that's not to take away from what she's done, it's absolutely extraordinary to win 19 in a row, especially with her style. But, I for one, will always wonder (especially if she wins the Classic) how many Woodwards, Pacific Classics, Donns, Big Caps, Hw Gold Cups, etc she might have won along the way.

[cj]

However the original calculations that I made from the Equibase charts are correct because Equibase have Zenyatta 3 lengths behind at the 1 mile marker and according to them the mile went in 1:36.86.



Buzzer sound, wrong again. It isn't in the chart. We are all wrong sometimes. Some of us just have more trouble admitting it.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Maybe someone has a great answer that I have yet to think of yet, but as someone that has timed a lot of horses/races with a watch - why not simply time the interval of your choice manually (by hand) to your satisfaction?

I understand for the sake of calculations that depend upon teletiming (speed figs or the like) being reluctant to deviate from formulas derived from the teletiming, but for the sake of simply "wanting to know" - shit, most chic new phones are as useful as a decent stopwatch once you've got your bearings.

[Charlie D]

I don't know about "beating up tomato cans", but sending a mare out 19 times and coming back 19 times a winner with a happy, healthy horse that is now held together well enough to compete in the nation's richest race at age 6 and add to her already record $6,334,296 in earnings is absolutely a superior training job. As a matter of fact, it is technically perfect.

I admire the work Shirreffs and his barn have done, and will be pulling for them to get this next one with Z in November.


Ouija Board competed in some of the richest races in the World, some of those after injury in 2005, her total career earnings were £3,510, 682

Here are some of races she ran in - Arc, Prince of Wales Stakes, Coronation Cup, Irish Champion, Hong Kong Vase, QEII Cup, Japan Cup. F&M turf x 2



Now if you want to talk seriously about superior training lets talk about people who can do the above with thier horses.

[Cratos]

No the question is why do you think you are so smart when no one else does?

I apologize that I offended you and I have never proclaimed myself as being smart, but I do work hard to stay up with people like you and honestly I am not concerned about how someone thinks of me in anonymity; I would have to be at the epitome of grandiloquent to think that way.

[Dahoss9698]

I apologize that I offended you and I have never proclaimed myself as being smart, but I do work hard to stay up with people like you and honestly I am not concerned about how someone thinks of me in anonymity; I would have to be at the epitome of grandiloquent to think that way.

I'm not offended at all. You should apologize for being hard headed and not admitting you are wrong.

[Cardus]

I apologize that I offended you and I have never proclaimed myself as being smart, but I do work hard to stay up with people like you and honestly I am not concerned about how someone thinks of me in anonymity; I would have to be at the epitome of grandiloquent to think that way.

You really want to use grandiloquent here? Pompous speech or expression?

Maybe.

[PaceAdvantage]

The answer is that trainer's ain't what they used to be. Exactly right.

Allen Jerkens was on a pre-taped NYRA piece recently talking about beating Secretariat with Onion in the Whitney. He reminded us that Onion had set the track record for six furlongs at Saratoga a mere 11 days prior to beating Secretariat at the 9 furlong Whitney distance. Jerkens commented something to the effect that today he would be crucified for such a move.

[Beachbabe]

Beach, the racehorse term, "tomato cans" has created some of our greatest moments at this messageboard.

And will, most likely, always remain a fond part of PA, and this is as it should be, given it was born here.

Just the image alone--all of 'em strung out down the backside, through the turn, backing up, or climbing in the stretch--is priceless. Often, hilarious.

The only problem one can foresee . . . . if the racecallers begin to borrow it.


Thank you. That was going to be my next question..."Where did the term 'tomato cans' come from?" I've seen it & heard it elsewhere....didn't know it was "born" here.
With that I'll take back my call for "peanut butter jars" being the now term for what we once called, "dogs", "mutts" or "plugs".

Let TOMATO CANS reign on !!!

[PaceAdvantage]

Tomato Cans is an old boxing term...fits Zenyatta's 2010 (and much of her 2009) campaign perfectly:

In boxing or mixed martial arts, "tomato can" or simply "can" is an idiom for a fighter with poor or diminished skills who may be considered an easy opponent to defeat, or a "guaranteed win." Fights with "tomato cans" can be arranged to inflate the win total of a professional fighter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato_can_(sports_idiom)

[Charlie D]

Races with "tomato cans" can be arranged to inflate the win total of a thoroughbred.




FTFY Paceadvantage ;)

[RXB]

I'm posting this because a couple of people in this thread need to familiarize themselves with it. Any newbies should also become acquainted with it.

http://www1.drf.com/misc/pointsofcall.pdf

Main instructive point: the second-to-last positional call, aka the stretch call, is always 1/8th from the finish. It doesn't necessarily match to a posted fractional time, and never so in races involving a "half-furlong" distance.

[joanied]

How come then, when an NFL game has 75,000 fans screaming DEFENSE on top of their lungs, i can hear Joe Buck and Troy Aikman crystal clear? I have to imagine that 75k football fans are louder than 15,000 or so zenyatta fans, no?

I guess the football games have better soundy systems? I don't know. By the way, they said the crowd was something over 25,000.

[eastie]

I know how to read a chart. Your skills are, apparently, dubious at best.

well then why don't tell us all how Zenyatta didn't break 6 for the last 1/16. I'm sure you have plenty time to read charts down there in that thoroughbred hotbed Oklahoma.

[Investorater]

The fact remains, by defeating all-comers, Zenyatta - now owns the career

earnings record ( $6,404,580 ) by a female horse.

[cj]

well then why don't tell us all how Zenyatta didn't break 6 for the last 1/16. I'm sure you have plenty time to read charts down there in that thoroughbred hotbed Oklahoma.

I'm not sure where I live has much to do with whether I can read, especially since I've traveled most of the world, but feel free to keep making an ass of yourself.

[cj]

The fact remains, by defeating all-comers, Zenyatta - now owns the career

earnings record ( $6,404,580 ) by a female horse.

Pretty much meaningless, just like when Curlin was trying to break the record and Cigar actually did.

[5k-claim]

Ouija Board competed in some of the richest races in the World, some of those after injury in 2005, her total career earnings were £3,510, 682

Here are some of races she ran in - Arc, Prince of Wales Stakes, Coronation Cup, Irish Champion, Hong Kong Vase, QEII Cup, Japan Cup. F&M turf x 2

Now if you want to talk seriously about superior training lets talk about people who can do the above with thier horses.

A remarkable training job with a remarkable mare. Top of the heap.

But it has nothing to do with the work of Sherriffs and his crew with the big mare in their barn.

Each animal brings to the barn its own unique set of physical and mental challenges and laundry list of little minefields to be navigated in order to keep it going throughout its career. The horses do not ship from the factory all the same, Charlie D. And they sure as hell don't stay that way.

At the end of the day, it is irrelevant what some other barn has done with their big mare. If yours is the career money earner for females, undefeated with gobs of black ink for a catlog page, and heading into November of her 6-yo year with at least a chance to be competitive in this nation's richest race- then there is a whole lot of "superior" that has been jumping up and appearing from somewhere.

The horse? The trainer? The ability to sneak in and be the sole entity in racing to take advantage of the sport's massive loophole that has allowed the amassing of a record $6.3M in a depressed economy by running a slow mare on rubber tracks?

Whatever you want, Charlie. Take you pick. That last option would actually be the most impressive of all.

[PaceAdvantage]

Zenyatta doesn't have to win the BC Classic for me to sing her praises after the race.

That's the difference between someone like myself and these folks who think the only thing that matters is winning, no matter the competition.

If you would poll most of the Zenyatta "fanboys" on this site, I'm sure a super majority of them would think I'll be on here saying "See, I told you so" if Zenyatta finishes 2nd or 3rd, beaten a length....when nothing could be further from the truth.

[rwwupl]

Zenyatta is the current face of horse racing...That is a good thing,better than all the other stuff we hear.

Lets do not waste our time trying to find fault, celebrate her while we can. She deserves it.


rwwupl

[Pine Tree Lane]

Enjoy these photos of Zenyatta. By the way, for those who think she lost a step, she ran hard for about 8 strides before gearing down.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/5049204855_72892d3a33_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/5049829410_3776e44ff5_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5049212125_b54a26bab9_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4127/5049213651_3a53c79035_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/5049834782_57cd182fdd_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4104/5049244699_6b39d22d0a_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4150/5049837990_e15ddb045c_b.jpg

Please visit my photostream @ ]http://www.flickr.com/photos/boldforbes/

[Grits]

Beautiful photos! Thanks so much for sharing them.

[PaceAdvantage]

Very nice shots...ditto what Grits said...

[classhandicapper]

I don't buy into that.

A closer running against a pedestrian pace will never be visually impressive.
Regardless of the company they are running against.

I actually agree with you. That's why IMO so many of her performances late last year and this year have been ambiguous and why I've been having such a difficult time evaluating where she is right now.

But she did have a few slow paced races earlier in her career and she seemed to inhale even better horses than she ran down Saturday with less effort.

The question is whether she has lost a step or is still less than 100% cranked because the goal is the Classic. At first I was leaning towards the latter because that's what happend last year. But I don't she's moved forward yet this year and is 6. Very few horses stay at their peak until they are 6 and have had 19 starts.

[classhandicapper]

The point is there was another race she could have run in today....her connections chose the easier race. Again.

I'm sorry you don't want to acknowledge it, but it's the truth.

I agree with this perspective and think part of the reason is related to what they feel is the optimal preparation for the Classic and part is related to the win streak.

The latter is open to criticism, but I do think there's a double standard here.

I've seen every single great US based mare since the 70s and I don't recall any heat being put on the connections of any of them to take on older grade males. Every single one of them that even tried (and many didn't despite their greatness), did so very selectively and on a very limited basis. They looked for a soft or at least a reasonable spot to try.

Many 3YO filles have tried 3YO colts aggressively and multiple times, but that's an entirely different proposition because 3YO fillies are usually ahead of the colts in their development. The very best match up well in the spring and summer against Grade 1 colts but then they fall behind later and certainly don't match up with true Grade 1 older horses like in the Classic.

The only mare I have ever seen that was criticized for avoiding Grade 1 older males is Zenyatta.

[Investorater]

I've questioned her competition. Hell...I even thought she'd run on turf. She is

good for the industry, and one thing is certain, Zenyatta thus far, has not taken

a "dive".

[skate]

Hey, great shots and i hope you are in business.


Great race. To me, what makes "Z", is the fact that, she not only closes with a prevailing determination, but "Switch" was pulling away from her after the turn.

It's her Mind Game, sure she needs the time, but her mind game gives her a winner.

All sports play to soft scedules.

[Dahoss9698]

The only mare I have ever seen that was criticized for avoiding Grade 1 older males is Zenyatta.

That is because horse racing is a lot different now that it used to be. There isn't a whole lot separating the top females and the top males as we continue to see.

The reason for the criticisms is they have proven they can beat all of the fillies in the west coast. I liken it to this....Commentator was a NYB running machine. had Zito kept him in NYB stakes for his entire career there is zero doubt in my mind he would have retired undefeated. Don't you think there would have been criticisms (and they would be justified) if they kept him running against the same competition over and over again?

[classhandicapper]

I believe she ran the final 1/16 in 5.2 seconds in her last race. There's no question that her closing speed is in a area where very few horses now or ever could duplicate. On my computer system she has the strongest Kick ratings of any horse since I started using the system back in 1996, by far.

I would love to discuss your ratings off line if you are willing. ;)

[classhandicapper]

That is correct, but the eighth pole was the one mile marker of the race and she covered the last sixteenth in a sizzling 5.609 seconds. Also, if you extrapolate her time out to 1 1/4 miles it becomes 2:00.397; not bad for a 6yo mare who has lost a "step."

I would be very hesitant to extrapolate a truly brilliant 16th out another 3/16ths.

[classhandicapper]

That is because horse racing is a lot different now that it used to be. There isn't a whole lot separating the top females and the top males as we continue to see.

The reason for the criticisms is they have proven they can beat all of the fillies in the west coast. I liken it to this....Commentator was a NYB running machine. had Zito kept him in NYB stakes for his entire career there is zero doubt in my mind he would have retired undefeated. Don't you think there would have been criticisms (and they would be justified) if they kept him running against the same competition over and over again?

I don't know where you are getting the idea that racing is different because all the data I compile suggests nothing has changed about the horses.

If anything has happened, perhaps more trainers understand that the very best 2yo fillies are often competitive with 2YO colts, the very 3YO fillies are often competitive with colts in the spring/summer (both physical development issues), and the best filly sprinters can sometimes hang with the boys (other more complex issues). So more take a shot.

But there is ZERO objective data to suggest that the best older mares can hang with the best older males on dirt unless they are freakishly good and catch a weak field. That's why on the rare occasions they try it they usually get their head handed to them UNLESS the connections are very selective about the field. Most trainers don't even bother trying.

Trying Zenyatta in the Classic on dirt is a ridiculously aggressive spot for a horse that's 19 to 19. It's almost like begging to go out a loser and give her critics fuel.

For the the connections of Personal Ensign, Bayakoa, Go for Wand etc.. the discussion probably never even came up.

(turf racing in Europe is an entirely diferent matter because the race developments and attributes required for success are different than on dirt)

[Dahoss9698]

I don't know where you are getting the idea that racing is different because all the data I compile suggests nothing has changed about the horses.

If anything has happened, perhaps more trainers understand that the very best 2yo fillies are often competitive with 2YO colts, the very 3YO fillies are often competitive with colts in the spring/summer (both physical development issues), and the best filly sprinters can sometimes hang with the boys (other more complex issues). So more take a shot.

But there is ZERO objective data to suggest that the best older mares can hang with the best older males on dirt unless they are freakishly good. That's why on the rare occasions they try it they usually get their head handed to them UNLESS they are very selective about the field.

Trrying Zenyatta in the Classic on dirt is ridiculously aggressive.

For the the connections of Personal Ensign, Bayakoa, Go for Wand etc.. the discussion probably never even came up.

(turf racing in Europe is an entirely diferent matter because the race developments and attributes required for success are different than on dirt)

I get it. More "you just don't get it" nonsense. Meanwhile you totally ignored my other points and talked about dirt, when the facts are Zenyatta has made 17 of her 19 starts on synthetic.

Here's what you missed in your way longer than needed to be post. Quality has changed...a lot. The 20th best horse 20 years ago would be an absolute superstar nowadays. What are there maybe a handful of "good" horses in this country right now?

The very best fillies can and should be competing with males, regardless of surface. It happens in other parts of the world all of the time.

[Dahoss9698]

I missed your edits the first time, but it's funny to me you are hedging already and we're a month out from the race.

[pandy]

I noticed a few people seem to think that Zenyatta has beaten mediocre competition. Since she is in her 4th year of racing, she has faced the best of her sex over a 4 year span and never lost. Even without the powerful BC win over the best horses in the world, that lone is an incredible achievement.

[FenceBored]

I noticed a few people seem to think that Zenyatta has beaten mediocre competition. Since she is in her 4th year of racing, she has faced the best of her sex over a 4 year span and never lost. Even without the powerful BC win over the best horses in the world, that lone is an incredible achievement.

Some people think that she's faced mediocre competition in most of her races, because they've actually taken the time to look at the competition in question. Some people think that by repeating the word "best" in regards to her competition they make it true. Either that, or they read it in some press release and think that nobody would ever stretch the truth in a press release.

[joanied]

PineTreeLane...WOW:ThmbUp: between you & jason, we have a couple of incredible photographers here:jump:
I love two shots so much...the head on with what I think is the colosium in the background...Mike is bringing her back from his parade in front of the grandstand...and I just adore the one where he's petting her neck and she has her head turned and is looking at him...one thing about Mike Smith is the love and affection he shows with his mounts...he was like that with Azeri...that one photo really shows the love between Mike & Zenny...like the incredible photo of Mike on Prairie Bayou...the colt has his head turned into Mike's petting on him...shots like that should be used as posters to advertise the sport...it shows the love!!

Is it Ok for me to 'steal' one or two of your photos for my desktop photo?
:) :) :)

[Pine Tree Lane]

PineTreeLane...WOW:ThmbUp: between you & jason, we have a couple of incredible photographers here:jump:
I love two shots so much...the head on with what I think is the colosium in the background...Mike is bringing her back from his parade in front of the grandstand...and I just adore the one where he's petting her neck and she has her head turned and is looking at him...one thing about Mike Smith is the love and affection he shows with his mounts...he was like that with Azeri...that one photo really shows the love between Mike & Zenny...like the incredible photo of Mike on Prairie Bayou...the colt has his head turned into Mike's petting on him...shots like that should be used as posters to advertise the sport...it shows the love!!

Is it Ok for me to 'steal' one or two of your photos for my desktop photo?
:) :) :)

That's fine. Enjoy!

BTW that is actually the L.A. Forum where the Lakers and Kings used to play.

[senortout]

Uh, Eastie, you might try reading that chart again, and watching the race again. Or correct your math.

if you will concede that she had 2 lengths to make up with 1/16 mile to the finish line.....this is her approx final 1/16th...

102.97 (final time in 100ths....1 min=60 sec plus 42.97 =102.97
-96.86 (time of the mile in 100ths....60 seconds plus 36.86 seconds)
______
6.11 seconds now her 2 lengths behind, must be accounted for....
.17(per beaten length at that stage of the race
x2 (lengths beaten at that stage of the race
.34 seconds must be subtracted from the 6.11
6.11
-0.34
5.77.....Zenyatta came home the last 16th in just over 5 3/4 seconds.

nice, no matter how you look at it.
the horse in front of her was not stopping. She had, in fact begun to widen just as Zenyatta began her final move.

senortout

[joanied]

That's fine. Enjoy!

BTW that is actually the L.A. Forum where the Lakers and Kings used to play.

Thanks:ThmbUp: so much...the photos won't go further than my computers desktop!

Ah...wasn't sure about that building...it's been 30 years since I was in LA...at any rate...it sure makes for a strong background in that photo.

[csperberg]

The fact remains, by defeating all-comers, Zenyatta - now owns the career

earnings record ( $6,404,580 ) by a female horse.

You mean by a US female horse. She is not even on the street outside the ball park of being close to the actual female earnings record holder.

[OverlayHunter]

Pinetreelane - To look at your outstanding photos and not thank you for sharing them would be a crime. Wow! Thank you.

[Investorater]

You mean by a US female horse. She is not even on the street outside the ball park of being close to the actual female earnings record holder.

According to my research, with Zenyatta's - Lady's Secret - Victory (and a total of $6,404,580 in career earnings). She has surpassed Ouija Board's worldwide female earnings record which stood at $6,311,362.

One more race to go.....

[Dahoss9698]

According to my research, with Zenyatta's - Lady's Secret - Victory (and a total of $6,404,580 in career earnings). She has surpassed Ouija Board's worldwide female earnings record which stood at $6,311,362.

One more race to go.....

What about Vodka? She earned twice as much as Zenyatta has.

[csperberg]

According to my research, with Zenyatta's - Lady's Secret - Victory (and a total of $6,404,580 in career earnings). She has surpassed Ouija Board's worldwide female earnings record which stood at $6,311,362.

One more race to go.....

Vodka (JPN) 2004- 1,304,876,000 yen = $15.65 million usd with current exchange rate but the pedigree report lists $$13,147,826 million usd which I assume would have been the exchange rate at time of her retirement.

http://japanracing.jp/_statistics/2009/s07.html

[Investorater]

What about Vodka? She earned twice as much as Zenyatta has.

Maybe so, as for vodka I like it mixed.:lol:

[Charlie D]

I noticed a few people seem to think that Zenyatta has beaten mediocre competition. Since she is in her 4th year of racing, she has faced the best of her sex over a 4 year span and never lost. Even without the powerful BC win over the best horses in the world, that lone is an incredible achievement.


Please. Best Euro middle distance horse went off to stud. RIP ran down track, Conduit ran on Turf

Now that is just few horses from UK/Ireland,


Where were best Far East middle distance horses, where were best from Australia


"best in world" is BS. Stop believing the HYPE.

[Nitro]

Don’t you just love it when others mouth off about knowing what to do (or what they would do) with horses like Zanyetta in terms of placing them in certain races? They come off as if they had some real credibility when it comes to owning and training horses of any caliber. They’re not satisfied with the distinction of the accomplishments. All they can do is attempt to downgrade these feats by implying that they’re substandard when compared to other champions. They also attempt to demoralize the decisions of the connections without any real knowledge of their intentions which are based in most cases on the condition of the animal itself.

Then all of a sudden these same hypocrites come out of the woodwork with their sorrowful tales when a horse breaks down. Of course they’ll point their the finger at anyone and everyone that might be involved, by once again questioning the decisions to run in a race that perhaps caused undue stress due to the competition.

The unrealistic expectations that some people have about horse-flesh is really incredible. It clearly demonstrates a disconnect with the realities of this game and the business of horseracing in general. Ironically their cynicism has been thwarted each and every time Zanyetta hits the track. I think it’s high time to congratulate the connections for understanding the nature of the animal and its capabilities, and not becoming over zealous about satisfying those who have nothing more to lose then the credibility of their whimsical opinions.

[delayjf]

As much as it pains me to say this, I'm fairly convinced by today's race that much like Rachel Alexandra, Zenyatta has lost a step this year compared to where she was for the Classic in 2009 and especially where she was in 2008.

You may very well be right, after all time catches up with everyone. I thought she was in tall cotton going into last years BC - due to her lowish speed figures, which by the way are about the figures she's running now. And what did she do - but kicked it up a couple of notches. 1 1/16 is not her distance so I would not expect her to run her best speed figures.

I was there Sat. and took a seat at the 1/16th pole as I figured that's about when she would be moving. Turns out I was right.

By the way, for those who think she lost a step, she ran hard for about 8 strides before gearing down.

Sounds like you and I saw the same thing. Viewing the rerun many times, I observed her kicking into gear at about the 1/16th pole and then pulling up a bit about two strides from the finish line. You pictures are much better than mine, thanks. Bye the bye, how the hell did you get on the track???

[Dahoss9698]

Don’t you just love it when others mouth off about knowing what to do (or what they would do) with horses like Zanyetta in terms of placing them in certain races? They come off as if they had some real credibility when it comes to owning and training horses of any caliber. They’re not satisfied with the distinction of the accomplishments. All they can do is attempt to downgrade these feats by implying that they’re substandard when compared to other champions. They also attempt to demoralize the decisions of the connections without any real knowledge of their intentions which are based in most cases on the condition of the animal itself.

Then all of a sudden these same hypocrites come out of the woodwork with their sorrowful tales when a horse breaks down. Of course they’ll point their the finger at anyone and everyone that might be involved, by once again questioning the decisions to run in a race that perhaps caused undue stress due to the competition.

The unrealistic expectations that some people have about horse-flesh is really incredible. It clearly demonstrates a disconnect with the realities of this game and the business of horseracing in general. Ironically their cynicism has been thwarted each and every time Zanyetta hits the track. I think it’s high time to congratulate the connections for understanding the nature of the animal and its capabilities, and not becoming over zealous about satisfying those who have nothing more to lose then the credibility of their whimsical opinions.

I'll save Joanied the time.

:) :jump: :cool: ;) :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :kiss:

[classhandicapper]

I get it. More "you just don't get it" nonsense. Meanwhile you totally ignored my other points and talked about dirt, when the facts are Zenyatta has made 17 of her 19 starts on synthetic.

Here's what you missed in your way longer than needed to be post. Quality has changed...a lot. The 20th best horse 20 years ago would be an absolute superstar nowadays. What are there maybe a handful of "good" horses in this country right now?

The very best fillies can and should be competing with males, regardless of surface. It happens in other parts of the world all of the time.

You say something I don't agree with, backed up by nothing, while I have decades of objective data on stakes races supported by race outcomes to support my position and I'm spouting nonsense?

Unbelievable. :rolleyes:

1. You should ask Jerry Brown whether he thinks horses are better now or 20 years ago. That should be quite a conversation. I'd love to listen in on that one. I have no strong view on that, but I know the spread between males and females hasn't changed in 35 years.

2. As I said, fillies race reasonably successfully against colts on turf all over the world, on dirt in sprints in the US, and as 2YOs/3YOs on dirt in the US (each for different reasons) but they have not done well at Classic distances against fully matured elite Grade 1 competition on dirt. There is objective data to explain why that's the case.

3. IMO there's not enough of a record to determine if it's easier for fillies to compete with colts on these new surfaces the way it is on turf. However, I suspect it is. Therefore I suspect it was easier for Zenyatta to win a Classic on synthetic than it would be to win one on dirt even if she's equally as proficient on dirt. In my 35 years as a handicapper, I have never seen a single mare I would favor over the typical BC Classic field on dirt. Not one, including Zenyatta. So by definition, IMO running in this year's Classic on dirt is a monumentally aggressive move and a risk few other connections would even consider (Lukas tried with Azeri, but he tries everything).

4. As to Saturday's race, the winner was Richards Kid. Richard's Kid got absolutely buried in the Classic that Zenyatta won in 2009. So beating him again on synthetic wouldn't have demonstrated much. As I said, IMO the connections are taking the easier spots to both prepare her for the Classic as they see fit and IMO to also protect the streak too (the latter being highly questionable, but the former being both their right and probably correct considering they got her to peak last year that way).

[Charlie D]

Are Dahoss and Classhandicapper mouthing off or offering thier opinion on horses, races and horse racing related topics??

Signed

:confused:

Gods County. UK

[classhandicapper]

Are Dahoss and Classhandicapper mouthing off or offering thier opinion on horses and races??

Signed

:confused:

Gods County. UK

That's a good question.

I thought I was very polite and objective in my post (agree or disagree), but something seems to have ruffled his feathers. It's that kind of thing that makes me want to leave this forum. I don't have the time and desire.

[RXB]

That's a good question.

I thought I was very polite and objective in my post (agree or disagree)

You generally are; I hope you don't leave the forum.

[Charlie D]

CH

I think you may have misinterpreted the "nosense" comment made by Dahoss.

[Dahoss9698]

You say something I don't agree with, backed up by nothing, while I have decades of objective data on stakes races supported by race outcomes to support my position and I'm spouting nonsense?

Unbelievable. :rolleyes:

1. You should ask Jerry Brown whether he thinks horses are better now or 20 years ago. That should be quite a conversation. I'd love to listen in on that one. I have no strong view on that, but I know the spread between males and females hasn't changed in 35 years.

2. As I said, fillies race reasonably successfully against colts on turf all over the world, on dirt in sprints in the US, and as 2YOs/3YOs on dirt in the US (each for different reasons) but they have not done well at Classic distances against fully matured elite Grade 1 competition on dirt. There is objective data to explain why that's the case.

3. IMO there's not enough of a record to determine if it's easier for fillies to compete with colts on these new surfaces the way it is on turf. However, I suspect it is. Therefore I suspect it was easier for Zenyatta to win a Classic on synthetic than it would be to win one on dirt even if she's equally as proficient on dirt. In my 35 years as a handicapper, I have never seen a single mare I would favor over the typical BC Classic field on dirt. Not one, including Zenyatta. So by definition, IMO running in this year's Classic on dirt is a monumentally aggressive move and a risk few other connections would even consider (Lukas tried with Azeri, but he tries everything).

4. As to Saturday's race, the winner was Richards Kid. Richard's Kid got absolutely buried in the Classic that Zenyatta won in 2009. So beating him again on synthetic wouldn't have demonstrated much. As I said, IMO the connections are taking the easier spots to both prepare her for the Classic as they see fit and IMO to also protect the streak too (the latter being highly questionable, but the former being both their right and probably correct considering they got her to peak last year that way).

You should offer up Cliff Notes for your posts. Do you get paid everytime you mention you've been handicapping for 35 years? Am I supposed to care?

You are talking about dirt as though Zenyatta has raced exclusively on dirt. She hasn't. You made a statement that Zenyatta is the only mare you have seen that has been criticized for avoiding grade 1 older males. I offered up my opinion as to why.

Whether you or Jerry brown agree, my opinion is that racing in general is a lot different. There is very little quality around, at least in this country. Take a look at any stake race...it should be obvious we are seriously lacking in quality.

No one said she should be taking on colts every race and no one said it should be on dirt. But with the handicap division being so thin lately, especially out west, where she has spent almost all of the last two years, I don't think it's asking a lot for her to run against males more than once.

You disagree and that's fine. But spare me the dramatics and pity posts about leaving. Your theme for months has been about how you get it and others don't. Being rude passive aggressively is the same as being blatant about it.

[Nitro]

Are Dahoss and Classhandicapper mouthing off or offering thier opinion on horses, races and horse racing related topics??

Signed

:confused:

Gods County. UK It’s unfortunate that you can’t make that distinction. (I can see why you use that icon as a signature.) However, my reference to “mouthing off” was a bit more specific then the generalities you mentioned, and certainly inline with the topic and related comments at hand.

I could really care less what their (or anyone else’s) incredulous opinions might be when it comes to a topic they know very little about. On the other hand, I’m sure they could probably write credible volumes on subjects that they’re very familiar with.

It’s too bad that decisions based on empirical knowledge by those the business are routinely second guessed by outsiders who have nothing more to gain then to think that they’re so-called opinions are influencing others. The really sad thing is that someone might actually be swayed by all of this nonsense because they don’t take the time to scrutinize the content.

[PaceAdvantage]

The unrealistic expectations that some people have about horse-flesh is really incredible. It clearly demonstrates a disconnect with the realities of this game and the business of horseracing in general. Ironically their cynicism has been thwarted each and every time Zanyetta hits the track. I think it’s high time to congratulate the connections for understanding the nature of the animal and its capabilities, and not becoming over zealous about satisfying those who have nothing more to lose then the credibility of their whimsical opinions.Another point lost on someone who clearly has reading comprehension issues.

[Nitro]

Another point lost on someone who clearly has reading comprehension issues.Is that how you folks try to get your points across by attempting to personally besmirch others who counter with a plausible response? On some forums they call it bashing, and based your position I guess it’s tolerated here, but I won’t lower myself to that level. And by the way, my previous comment stands whether it fits your state of mind or not.

[Stillriledup]

For the argument of quality and how the 'quality' has gotten worse over the years, how about an argument that the quality has gotten BETTER?

You can make a case that the great horses from 20, 30 and 40 years ago were able to be great because the competition wasnt nearly as good. The reason, one might argue, that the 'great' horses of today aren't as 'consistent' as the greats of a few decades ago is because in today's game, horses run incredibly fast and then bounce in their next start and lose, so we automatically assume that the quality isn't as good.

In everything in life, whether its sports or something else, things are better than they were 40 years ago. Athletes in all sports are bigger, faster, stronger and much more skilled. Technology is leaps and bounds better and the list goes on. Why then, is horse racing the only sport that the horses have gotten slower or worse?

I think its perception. People are intoxicated by wins. Cy Young won 511 games in major league baseball, nowadays, 300 wins is conisdered a super achievement. Why? Have the pitchers gotten worse or have the hitters gotten much better? You can use the Cy Young argument the same way as some of you are using the horses-are-worse argument. You can say, "They don't make em like Denton True anymore" Or, you can argue the hitters today are so good, that Cy would get clobbered if he pitched today.

I'm of the school that the horses are more talented than horses of 30 and 40 years ago, but they are not as durable or as consistent. I think the lack of consistency in today's racehorse makes people think the horses are not as good as the consistent runners of a few decades ago.

[nearco]

According to my research, with Zenyatta's - Lady's Secret - Victory (and a total of $6,404,580 in career earnings). She has surpassed Ouija Board's worldwide female earnings record which stood at $6,311,362.



Not sure where you got the idea that Ouija Board was leading female money earner. She might not even be in the top 5.

Vodka - appox $13m
Sunline - AUS$11.5m, that would be over $10m today's exchange rate. Not sure what the exchange was when she was running.
Buena Vista - approx $8.5m

Seems like there's some one else I'm forgetting.

[nearco]

Seems like there's some one else I'm forgetting.

Daiwa Scarlett - ~$7.5m

[nearco]

Doh.... the obvious one...

Makybe Diva - $11m

[PaceAdvantage]

Is that how you folks try to get your points across by attempting to personally besmirch others who counter with a plausible response? On some forums they call it bashing, and based your position I guess it’s tolerated here, but I won’t lower myself to that level. And by the way, my previous comment stands whether it fits your state of mind or not.It's not bashing at all. Clearly you don't comprehend what some of us are saying about Zenyatta. We have no disconnect with the realities of the game. Nobody is asking anything out of the realm of natural progression based upon displayed ability to date.

There is no point to get across here other than you don't understand why people like me state the kinds of things we do about Zenyatta and her connections. Perhaps the fault lies with us for not stating our case more clearly, but I doubt that...

[Investorater]

Not sure where you got the idea that Ouija Board was leading female money earner. She might not even be in the top 5.

Vodka - appox $13m
Sunline - AUS$11.5m, that would be over $10m today's exchange rate. Not sure what the exchange was when she was running.
Buena Vista - approx $8.5m

Seems like there's some one else I'm forgetting.

The web-sites I visited must only consider American and European racing.

[WinterTriangle]

The answer is that trainer's ain't what they used to be.

Well, that explains why Zenyatta is the only female to win the Breeders Cup Classic in 26 years.

Jack Van Berg: "I've seen a lot of great mares in my day. Ruffian was awful good. And Rachel Alexandra, you can't take nothing away from her.
But I've seen Zenyatta do things I've never seen the best colts do."


BTW, if you haven't read it, this was a good article last year from bloodhorse on trainers:
They Once Ruled the Sport:
http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2009/12/03/they-once-ruled-the-sport.aspx

[WinterTriangle]

They weren't ego driven.

Well it's the oddest thing.

All the interviewers, as well as horsemen and people who have interactions w/ John Shirreffs on a regular basis say he is the most laid back guy, and very humble.:confused:

I guess you've had experiences with him, (in your mind), that would challenge the actual in-person experiences of others.

There's a saying that a vivid imagination is a gift, but IMHO, it should be used judiciously.

[joanied]

Reading that article by Haskin made me sad...because sometimes, the truth does hurt.
What a shame that all these older trainers are overlooked by owners...and it really makes me wonder why. I suppose the fact that owners want a fast return on their investments is what drives them to the so called super trainers...if only these owners would realize, these older trainers would not only get their horses to the races, in the right spots, but in all probability, keep them sound longer.

Since this thread is about Zenyatta, and so, her connections, it's a good place to give John Sherriff's his due...if any other trainer, with very few exceptions, had gotten Zen as a 2 yr. old, she would never be the horse she is, I think most would agree with that...patience is something the older trainers had...and thankfully, so does Sherriff's.

When's the last time one of the older generation trainers had a positive...they trained horses to win, they kept them sound and they did it without using drugs...no wonder racing is hurting so bad...
we can't go back, but todays trainers could use a lesson or two from the old timers...but that ain't gonna happen either...hey, what do they know about turning a horse into a Champion:rolleyes: !!

[joanied]

http://drf.com/news/zenyatta-train-california-bc-classic

Since I read through the posts concerning Zenyatt's final 1/16th, and the fact most were telling eastie he was wrong about her time...well, folks, here it is in print...

One sentence from the article:
"Zenyatta was timed in 1:42.97 and ran the last sixteenth in approximately 5.7 seconds"

Just sayin'

[Dahoss9698]

Well it's the oddest thing.

All the interviewers, as well as horsemen and people who have interactions w/ John Shirreffs on a regular basis say he is the most laid back guy, and very humble.:confused:

I guess you've had experiences with him, (in your mind), that would challenge the actual in-person experiences of others.

There's a saying that a vivid imagination is a gift, but IMHO, it should be used judiciously.

The streak is more important to them than anything else. Isn't that ego driven? Instead of trying to turn everything I say into a lecture, take a few minutes and try and read what I'm actually saying. I'm sure Shirreffs is a great guy. He isn't making the decisions. The guy that pouted after his horse lost HOY is.

The vivid imagination part was a nice touch though as well as the actual in person experience part. It's the strangest thing because if I recall...oh nevermind.

[eastie]

http://drf.com/news/zenyatta-train-california-bc-classic

Since I read through the posts concerning Zenyatt's final 1/16th, and the fact most were telling eastie he was wrong about her time...well, folks, here it is in print...

One sentence from the article:
"Zenyatta was timed in 1:42.97 and ran the last sixteenth in approximately 5.7 seconds"

Just sayin'


thanks joanied. appreciate it.

[Dahoss9698]

Way to go Eastie! You were finally right about something! YAY!!!:ThmbUp:

[eastie]

well even a broken clock is right twice a day...I guess I was due.

[Dahoss9698]

For the argument of quality and how the 'quality' has gotten worse over the years, how about an argument that the quality has gotten BETTER?



Quality has gotten better? Nowadays the gap between mid level claimers and stakes horses is almost non existant. Wouldn't that indicate quality has gotten a lot worse?

Take a look at the runnings of the Jockey Club Gold Cup from 1960-1997. I doubt Haynsefield, Blame or Fly Down would have been competitive in any of those runnings. You can go across the board in every division. There was a lot more depth in each division and the horses were better.

[classhandicapper]

You should offer up Cliff Notes for your posts. Do you get paid everytime you mention you've been handicapping for 35 years? Am I supposed to care?

You are talking about dirt as though Zenyatta has raced exclusively on dirt. She hasn't. You made a statement that Zenyatta is the only mare you have seen that has been criticized for avoiding grade 1 older males. I offered up my opinion as to why.

Whether you or Jerry brown agree, my opinion is that racing in general is a lot different. There is very little quality around, at least in this country. Take a look at any stake race...it should be obvious we are seriously lacking in quality.

No one said she should be taking on colts every race and no one said it should be on dirt. But with the handicap division being so thin lately, especially out west, where she has spent almost all of the last two years, I don't think it's asking a lot for her to run against males more than once.

You disagree and that's fine. But spare me the dramatics and pity posts about leaving. Your theme for months has been about how you get it and others don't. Being rude passive aggressively is the same as being blatant about it.

I'm not in the business of giving away the data I have accumulated manually over the years, but if you look at the average winning times, average winning figures, or average of almost any other metric you prefer for all Graded horses over let's say a decade or more you'd find that the gap between fillies and colts tends to be different depending on the category of horse. You'd also find that the success rate of fillies when they face colts coincides quite well with those gaps.

I didn't mean that my opinion is better because I've been around 35 years. I meant that since I've been around 35 years I've seen a lot of great mares.

Since I would not favor ANY of them in the typical BC Classic field on DIRT, by definition this is a very aggressive spot to place her.

We don't even disagree much about her handling even though you keep bringing that up as a point of contention.

[classhandicapper]

Quality has gotten better? Nowadays the gap between mid level claimers and stakes horses is almost non existant. Wouldn't that indicate quality has gotten a lot worse?

Take a look at the runnings of the Jockey Club Gold Cup from 1960-1997. I doubt Haynsefield, Blame or Fly Down would have been competitive in any of those runnings. You can go across the board in every division. There was a lot more depth in each division and the horses were better.


I think you can make a pretty good case that the quality is lower in some categories, but I don't think you can make a case (at least with high levels of confidence) that that is true of all categories or any more than a random event. Some crops are better than others. It also tends to be cyclical. The industry is in a downturn, so maybe the quality is down temporarily also.

The game has also changed.

Years ago perhaps Quality Road, Musket Man (minor problem), Lookin at Lucky and others would have all been in the JCGC too. Now they have options and trainers worry about spacing and staying fresh for the BC. So most Grade 1 races are diluted. IMO the only true "elite" Grade 1 races are the Derby, Preakness, and BC races. Maybe a handful of others from time to time, but that's it.

For the record, Jerry Brown has modern horses being MUCH faster than 10-20 years ago. I have no strong opinion on that.

[delayjf]

You can make a case that the great horses from 20, 30 and 40 years ago were able to be great because the competition wasnt nearly as good. The reason, one might argue, that the 'great' horses of today aren't as 'consistent' as the greats of a few decades ago is because in today's game, horses run incredibly fast and then bounce in their next start and lose, so we automatically assume that the quality isn't as good.

I would be interested in reading that argument. When looking at the the speed figures of the horses in the last two triple crown campaigns makes me dubious that this generation is indeed faster.

[OTM Al]

I would be interested in reading that argument. When looking at the the speed figures of the horses in the last two triple crown campaigns makes me dubious that this generation is indeed faster.

Dubious of faster I would agree, but not of as fast. Last 2 years the fastest went out early, ie Quality Road, I Want Revenge, Eskendereya and Pampelmousse, so we don't know what they may have been at this point as completely as those who competed fully. Also poly has muted the speed number for west coasters.

I also find bounce dubious as well, but that is a different topic.

[classhandicapper]

By the way, for anyone that thinks Switch is a bum, they should take a closer look at Tanda's race in the Grade 1 Acorn and not focus exclusively on Switch's win and close finish against Blink Luck, and other close finish against Evening Jewel.

Tanda ran a HUGE race in NY when she shipped to NY. She was probably best that day (I used her and the 2nd place finisher).

Of course I realize that some people believe that every horse that ships out of CA and demonstrates that the quality in CA is high "must have just loved the dirt" and every horses that runs poorly verifies that synthetic horses suck, but it's worth a look (watch video too).

While I don't think Switch is a world beater, she's a high quality improving 3YO that had a 2-3 length head start into the stretch, a perfect ground saving trip, and a slow paced race where she probably also ran a new peak. Not many mares would have beaten her with Zenyatta's trip.

Also, did anyone notice that Blind Luck failed to get up on dirt the other day just like she failed to get up a few times on synthetic? I guess she's human (or equine) on dirt also.

[the little guy]

By the way, for anyone that thinks Switch is a bum, they should take a closer look at Tanda's race in the Grade 1 Acorn and not focus exclusively on Switch's win and close finish against Blink Luck, and other close finish against Evening Jewel.

Tanda ran a HUGE race in NY when she shipped to NY. She was probably best that day (I used her and the 2nd place finisher).

Of course I realize that some people believe that every horse that ships out of CA and demonstrates that the quality in CA is high "must have just loved the dirt" and every horses that runs poorly verifies that synthetic horses suck, but it's worth a look (watch video too).

While I don't think Switch is a world beater, she's a high quality improving 3YO that had a 2-3 length head start into the stretch, a perfect ground saving trip, and a slow paced race where she probably also ran a new peak. Not many mares would have beaten her with Zenyatta's trip.

Also, did anyone notice that Blind Luck failed to get up on dirt the other day just like she failed to get up a few times on synthetic? I guess she's human (or equine) on dirt also.


Keep reaching. You'll convince yourself eventually.

[classhandicapper]

Keep reaching. You'll convince yourself eventually.

LOL.

I am convinced of many things. One is that much like most other handicappers I have a lot of holes in my game.

The other is that despite having extremely high respect for your knowledge and skill as a horse player overall, I think one of yours is that you don't understand the nuances of synthetic racing as well as dirt or "why" the standards of measurement commonly used on dirt are not equally applicable to synthetics and vice versa (I listen to you on the OTB channel every day and draw from you regularly).

[Tom]

I can't buy 5.7.....no way.
How did they time that?

[RXB]

http://drf.com/news/zenyatta-train-california-bc-classic

Since I read through the posts concerning Zenyatt's final 1/16th, and the fact most were telling eastie he was wrong about her time...well, folks, here it is in print...

One sentence from the article:
"Zenyatta was timed in 1:42.97 and ran the last sixteenth in approximately 5.7 seconds"

Just sayin'

Actually, Eastie said that Zenyatta "came home in less than 5 1/2 seconds."

Meanwhile, I will hold to my contention that it was probably 5.8 - 5.9 seconds.

[johnhannibalsmith]

The streak is more important to them than anything else. Isn't that ego driven?...

I'm going to play devil's advocate just a touch since we don't usually find much to spar over and probably don't really much on this subject either, but...

Do you leave open any chance that the connections consider the importance of her impact on California alone (in a uniquely, non-replicable-ey positive way) their co-primary motive for this drab campaign? There's got to be an understated level of pressure, both internal and external, to keep her in California and keep her unbeaten for the sake of Cal. racing. Without her running every three to eight weeks, there isn't much in the way of good news and franchise building coming out of that contingent lately.

I don't know, I'm on board with the prevailing sentiment, but with my own state's racing industry floundering - I wondered once what I'd do if I had a horse like Zenyatta and could use her/him as a vehicle to help support my friends and loved ones in the industry within my state at the expense of achieving more historically. That's probably some level of egoism, but probably not what you are alluding to. I'm not trying to pose this as an actual scenario, just a possible scenario - possible enough that I can be a tad diplomatic lately for some reason.

[joanied]

thanks joanied. appreciate it.

Your welcome, eastie... although, I see there are still some doubters:faint:
:)

Go, Zenny, GO!!!!!

[RXB]

Your welcome, eastie... although, I see there are still some doubters:faint:
:)

Go, Zenny, GO!!!!!

Since you gave it the old :faint:, Joanie, I'm going to have to ask what exactly I'm guilty of being stupid about.

I provided a specific quote about what was actually said. Further, even if it is 5.7 seconds, which I don't quite buy, my estimate of 5.8 - 5.9 is closer to 5.7 than "less than 5 1/2." Fairly straightforward math there.

[Stillriledup]

Quality has gotten better? Nowadays the gap between mid level claimers and stakes horses is almost non existant. Wouldn't that indicate quality has gotten a lot worse?

Take a look at the runnings of the Jockey Club Gold Cup from 1960-1997. I doubt Haynsefield, Blame or Fly Down would have been competitive in any of those runnings. You can go across the board in every division. There was a lot more depth in each division and the horses were better.

Valid points. I think that Haynesfield, Blame or Fly Down, on their best day, would beat those fields or be right on the wire. I think that the problem is consistency, those horses are great one day and not so great the next. Because of this, we think they're 'not that good' but its all consistency and not lack of talent. Today's T bred is more fragile and i think its possible that we're mistaking these 'bouncey' performances with lack of talent....it might just be that they run so fast that they aren't able to duplicate that effort like the sturdier horse from yesteryear.

There's also more speed that is bred into the breed these days, which means horses are quicker than some of the plodders but don't have as much stamina or the ability to stay as sound.

Look at pro athletes these days, there is much more injuries in pro sports than there was in 1970. Nobody knew what an ACL or MCL was in 1970 and now its a common everyday injury in the NFL.

An interesting comparison would be comparing T Bred racing to harness racing. The game of harness racing has seen horses get much much faster in the last 30 years. Great harness horses of 1980 would pace a mile in 155 and that was considered very strong. Now, the very best horses are pacing regularly in 147 and 148.....they've improved about 7 or 8 seconds in 30 years per mile. Harness horses have improved drastically, so to me, its pretty interesting that Thoroughbreds have not improved at all, and according to you and many others, they have gotten worse.

Very interesting debate.

[cj]

An interesting comparison would be comparing T Bred racing to harness racing.

Artificial insemination and equipment probably account for at least 7 of those seconds.

[joanied]

Since you gave it the old :faint:, Joanie, I'm going to have to ask what exactly I'm guilty of being stupid about.

I provided a specific quote about what was actually said. Further, even if it is 5.7 seconds, which I don't quite buy, my estimate of 5.8 - 5.9 is closer to 5.7 than "less than 5 1/2." Fairly straightforward math there.

Stupid:confused: ...RXB, I have never called anyone here stupid...I hope you realize I sure didn't say that about you...I don't think anyone here is stupid...we just have different opinions on things...but, that's another subject...

fact is, I probably wouldn't have ventured into this discussion if I hadn't stumbled onto that article.
But ya know what I think...bottom line...whether it was 5.6, 5.7, 5.8 or 5.9...she did get it in under 6 seconds...which is, to quote Trevor Denman..."un-be-lievable" :) :) :)

[cj]

But ya know what I think...bottom line...whether it was 5.6, 5.7, 5.8 or 5.9...she did get it in under 6 seconds...which is, to quote Trevor Denman..."un-be-lievable" :) :) :)

Why? It happens often enough.

[RXB]

Stupid:confused: ...RXB, I have never called anyone here stupid...I hope you realize I sure didn't say that about you...I don't think anyone here is stupid...we just have different opinions on things...but, that's another subject...

fact is, I probably wouldn't have ventured into this discussion if I hadn't stumbled onto that article.
But ya know what I think...bottom line...whether it was 5.6, 5.7, 5.8 or 5.9...she did get it in under 6 seconds...which is, to quote Trevor Denman..."un-be-lievable" :) :) :)

Take care with the :faint: icon as it contains a fairly direct implication-- as in, "you've got to be kidding me." I think you're a good soul, Joanie, so it's not a big deal. Done and over.

Now, regarding Zenyatta: I can't win! Point out anything less-than-positive about Zenyatta, get it from the hyperboosters. Point out the positives, get it from the hypercritics. Same with RA. For quite a while I avoided any thread mentioning either of those two; I think I'd better go back to that policy, at least until after the Breeders' Cup.

[Dahoss9698]

I'm going to play devil's advocate just a touch since we don't usually find much to spar over and probably don't really much on this subject either, but...

Do you leave open any chance that the connections consider the importance of her impact on California alone (in a uniquely, non-replicable-ey positive way) their co-primary motive for this drab campaign? There's got to be an understated level of pressure, both internal and external, to keep her in California and keep her unbeaten for the sake of Cal. racing. Without her running every three to eight weeks, there isn't much in the way of good news and franchise building coming out of that contingent lately.

I don't know, I'm on board with the prevailing sentiment, but with my own state's racing industry floundering - I wondered once what I'd do if I had a horse like Zenyatta and could use her/him as a vehicle to help support my friends and loved ones in the industry within my state at the expense of achieving more historically. That's probably some level of egoism, but probably not what you are alluding to. I'm not trying to pose this as an actual scenario, just a possible scenario - possible enough that I can be a tad diplomatic lately for some reason.

This is an interesting idea and there very well could be some truth to it. I'm open to that possibility. They live and race in California so I get where you are going with it.

The only thing I'll disagree with and it's another conversation for another time is the effect her losing would have. I know you aren't really saying it, but by protecting her, for lack of a better word, maybe it's on their mind. It's obvious she's a special filly. I know most don't think I feel that way, but I do. But I can't believe we have gotten to the point in this sport where a loss or two is viewed so negatively.

IMO there really is no shame in not being perfect on the racetrack. What bothers me is the idea that she's an all time great because of the record. The record shouldn't be what defines her. It should be what she accomplished on the track in her races. We all know she's the best filly or mare to run on synth. But her connections had a chance to do so much more and chose not to.

We'll probably never know why, so it's possible what you are suggesting is the reason. It's also possible the decision on where she has raced has been totally ego driven. Who knows..

[Cratos]

You really want to use grandiloquent here? Pompous speech or expression?

Maybe.

Okay I will take "pompous" which I am not.

[Dahoss9698]

Valid points. I think that Haynesfield, Blame or Fly Down, on their best day, would beat those fields or be right on the wire. I think that the problem is consistency, those horses are great one day and not so great the next. Because of this, we think they're 'not that good' but its all consistency and not lack of talent. Today's T bred is more fragile and i think its possible that we're mistaking these 'bouncey' performances with lack of talent....it might just be that they run so fast that they aren't able to duplicate that effort like the sturdier horse from yesteryear.



Not to get too much off track, but you really think Blame, Fly Down or Haynesfield would be competitive running with Skip Away, Cigar, Easy Goer, Creme Fraiche, Slew O Gold, John henry, Affirmed, Exceller, Damascus, Buckpasser, Kelso, etc? That seems a bit far fetched.

I don't really buy into the bounce theory so we'll probably not see eye to eye on the whole issue. But I strongly believe we are seriously lacking in quality nowadays. There are many reasons for it and until we get back to racing being what is important, and not breeding or eclipse awards, it's going to continue to go downhill.

[joanied]

Take care with the :faint: icon as it contains a fairly direct implication-- as in, "you've got to be kidding me." I think you're a good soul, Joanie, so it's not a big deal. Done and over.

Now, regarding Zenyatta: I can't win! Point out anything less-than-positive about Zenyatta, get it from the hyperboosters. Point out the positives, get it from the hypercritics. Same with RA. For quite a while I avoided any thread mentioning either of those two; I think I'd better go back to that policy, at least until after the Breeders' Cup.

Ahha...right, RXB...we need more emoticons:jump: ...but, you ain't alone, I think most of us can't win when it comes to Zen & RA...so the way you gotta think of it is not that saying something about either of them is right or wrong...it's just someones opinion, idea, emotions, thoughts...there just is no right or wrong...except, I guess, if someone uses a cold hard fact...then that is tron apart too...
see...ya just can't win:D ;) :D