Steve Asmussen - A Top 10 Trainer?

[GatetoWire]

What's your opinion?

He wins a lot of races and manages the largest stable in recent memory but his real top level success has come with horses that he took over after they were already racing.
Hal Wiggins and Hellen Pitts (McPeek) deserve a ton of credit for making Rachel and Curlin into the champions they were.

Does he really fit in with the best in the sport like Baffert, Pletcher, Hollendorfer, Mott, Zito, McLaughlin?

You can't argue with the success but I am not sure that it isn't the result of huge numbers versus tremendous skill.

If I was looking for a big time trainer to take my horses I think he would be down further on my list of possible trainers.

[the little guy]

Hal Wiggins and Hellen Pitts (McPeak) deserve a ton of credit for making Rachel and Curlin into the champions they were.



What does Ken McPeek have to do with developing Rachel or Curlin?

[GatetoWire]

What I meant was Wiggins with RA and Pitts (McPeek) with Curlin

Curlin was trained by Helen Pitts a former assistant of McPeek.
That was during his brief hiatus.
McPeek was advising the owners and Pitts and some say that he was heavily involved in training Curlin before he was sold and moved to Asmussen.

McPeek was also stiffed on a 5% commish in the Curlin sale and went to court to get his money.

[NTamm1215]

McPeek was also stiffed on a 5% commish in the Curlin sale and went to court to get his money.

You have a link for this?

[GatetoWire]

You have a link for this?

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=3110160

Not sure if this went to court or not.

[BluegrassProf]

What does Ken McPeek have to do with developing Rachel or Curlin?Not a whole heck of a lot....some say that he was heavily involved in training Curlin before he was sold and moved to Asmussen."Heavily involved" is a significant overstatement. All due credit to Pitts-Blasi, who is a heck of a lady, and gave Steve (and by default, primarily Scott B.) a solid foundation to work from, the latter pair ultimately giving us two years of progressive thrills. So goes the game of horseracing.

I find this whole "Steve the trainer-poseur" construction (yes, that's exactly what it is - a construction) just completely fascinating. I can't wait until I win a trainer's Eclipse so I can be one, too. ;)

[Grits]

Steve Asmussen - A Top 10 Trainer?

He wasn't voted the Eclipse Award for Top Trainer of the Year two years running by doing a shabby job.

A top 10 trainer? Indeed. Some may think not, but I do. Apparently several others did as well.

[socantra]

Steve Asmussen - A Top 10 Trainer?

Obviously!

[nijinski]

:ThmbUp: Steve Asmussen - A Top 10 Trainer?

He wasn't voted the Eclipse Award for Top Trainer of the Year two years running by doing a shabby job.

A top 10 trainer? Indeed. Some may think not, but I do. Apparently several others did as well.
:ThmbUp:

[Robert Fischer]

I never question betting a horse on account of SA being the trainer of record.

[JustRalph]

Steve Asmussen - A Top 10 Trainer?

He wasn't voted the Eclipse Award for Top Trainer of the Year two years running by doing a shabby job.

A top 10 trainer? Indeed. Some may think not, but I do. Apparently several others did as well.

You got him on another top ten list too.............right ? :lol: :lol:

[lamboguy]

What does Ken McPeek have to do with developing Rachel or Curlin?mcpeak originally bought curlin and started training him, helen pitts worked for mcpeak and took over when mcpeak retired from the game. helen pittss also married scott blassi's brother, the head assistant trainer for steve assmussen. that might have had something to do with why assmussen got curlin to begin with,

[lamboguy]

steve assmussen is a very gifted human being, he has a photographic memory. he uses that gift to run his large training operation. he enters everyone of his horses in different spots all over the country. its not just him though, his dad keith runs a training center in loredo texas. marylyn and keith assmussen are as nice a human beings as it gets. they do a top notch job breaking and training babies, their taining center called el primeiro, which happens to be as big as a racetrack. it has about 1200 stalls. when steve gets his horses he knows about everyone of them before he puts his hands on them.

[slewis]

There are names on the list posted that I would put Asmussen ahead of.

I'm not sure if top 5 (as opposed to top 10) would stir much of a debate amongst the most knowledgable in the sport.

[Pell Mell]

After what McLaughlin did with Uptowncharlybrown he wouldn't be on my list. :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

[Hanover1]

Don't know the man well enough to properly answer this question. I do know that having alot of well bred horses, and hiring competent help for the hands on work will usually produce a good one most every year. I have seen a few trainers of days gone by that were lauded as great, when it was the horse that made them look good and not vice versa.
A great trainer gets the most out of what he has, consistently. Sour grapes on the backside usually consists of "He ruined more good horses than he ever had". Along those lines.
Winning a ton of races with 200 head in the shed is not horse whispering. More like the ability to fill the correct boxes several times a week. A big difference between bringing a horse along vs getting them race ready and putting them in easy and trying to climb the ladder.
In short-my jury has not returned yet.

[ralph_the_cat]

What does Ken McPeek have to do with developing Rachel or Curlin?

No worries, you're not the only one who lacks in understanding the horses at the pinnacle of our sport, Andy Beyer's in the same boat.

[Bruddah]

I see it this way. Those knowledgable voters within the Industry think he's a good and talented top Trainer. He comes from a family background and History of knowledgable horse people. I would rather shape my opinion based on those knowlegable voters in the Industry, rather than those in the peanut gallery. :ThmbUp:

[Grits]

You got him on another top ten list too.............right ? :lol: :lol:

Ralph. Darlin', why did I have the sneaky feelinng this one was gonna come back to bite me! I shouldn't have told my PA guys anything--shouldn't have said a word!!! :lol:

As soon as "my boy, Steve," (as I often call him), walked through our PA tent on the way to his Escalade in the trainer's parking lot, incognito, wearing his sunglasses, a white dress shirt, shirt tail out, and jeans (Lord, I would've known him had he walked through in a darn space suit)--I knew I was in trouble.:faint: I swear, I can't tell you boys anything. Still . . . ya gotta admit, Grits was smooth. She watched him walk; smiled at you guys . . . and didn't say a word. Certainly, not that he could hear. Whew, us Southern women are made of steel.:lol:

Top 10? Nah, more like top 3.

[sandpit]

If I had a 2yo that I wanted to sweep the CD spring stakes after breaking his maiden by 8 at Keeneland in April, Asmussen would be my man.

If I was a guy with a bunch of older turf horses, I'd go a different direction.

[WinterTriangle]

I like Steve Asmussen for the everyday races and stakes. I don't know what to think about how he did with Rachel.

When Jonathan Sheppard had Forever Together, and she refused to train in March (as a 4-year old) he had her winning the Breeders' Cup Filly and Mare Turf by November. :D

I really don't think Steve is anywhere near the level of being able to get the best out of a horse as someone like Sheppard, who I would describe as "transformative", not just a good conditioner. I also believe there's a difference between a 'program trainer' and one who truly has an *inner sense* about horses.

When they gave Sheppard Just As Well, the horse had a lot of soundness issues. Sheppard turned him out with a bunch of old jumpers in a field at his farm, and it was miraculous....the horse was never sore again.

He worked miracles with Cloudy's Knight, too. the horse is 9 years old and coming off a serious tendon injury---and goes on to run a Marathon.

So, I guess it wouldn't hurt for Steve to ask Sheppard about, ahem, turning horses out. Or Larry Jones, who sent Proud Spell to the farm after a busy year and gave her some time, in his words, to "just be a horse."


JJ and Steve seem to be missing a rather important concept.:bang:


BTW, a really good article on Jonathan Sheppard here, and how he runs his farm: He's very much into a natural approach. He jogs injured horses on country roads.

anyway, photos of Forever Together and Informed Decision turned out together are just LOVELY!!!!!:

http://www.pennsylvaniaequestrian.com/news_0310/0310_natural_approach.htm

[Grits]

WT, how so? How do you like Steve, then proceed to state he's a "program" trainer" and one without that *inner sense.* What is it you like about him?

This reads like every horse trainer that has been, or remains in racing should take lessons from Sheppard including the likes of the legendary, Charlie Whittingham. Not sure how many Charlie turned out for months at the time, he sure was successful in this game though.

As far as comparing Steve to Larry J? Real big pass on that one. Larry Jones did well with Proud Spell in the Oaks, but not so well with Eight Belles the next day. Having been turned out for a good rest at some point during her continuous career of 19 or so starts may have prevented her unfortunate death. (Let's be fair, let's don't celebrate one, and ignore the other, and all like that.)

Jonathan, now 70, has been a jump trainer all of his life. Steve, now 46, got his start with quarters (as did Larry) and was in grade school when Jonathan was saddling winners.

Wikipedia is such a marvelous tome of info.:faint:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_E._Sheppard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Asmussen

Both gentlemen being quite successful, I have tremendous respect for the accomplishments of each. I don't prefer one over the other--they simply have different training regimens and styles.

Other trainers, too, have done outstanding jobs bringing horses back to the track, Jonathan isn't the first. Why does the name Dickinson come to mind, but then he didn't get his start with Quarters either.

You hold on to the fact that Steve didn't take your counsel. You've stated often, "her not being sent to the farm" as being the core of Rachel's 2010 problems. Still this remains only your opinion, and not a documented fact as to the reason for her form not carrying as well in to this year.

Real Quiet flipped last week and broke his neck in his paddock. He's dead. Mike Pegram didn't pay 10 million for him when he purchased him. Still it was sad to learn. Maybe Jackson was concerned for such a reason as this. We don't know. NONE OF US KNOW and this includes you.

On the other hand, has Zenyatta been sent back to the farm yet for a break? One to allow her to romp in a several acre paddock. Or did she just remain stabled at Hollywood, there in her favorite spot. Funny, you haven't found fault with Sheriff's training regimen, or suggested that Jonathan may be of assistance to him.

If I'm back in New York, or better yet, in Kentucky, I'll try and get up with Steve, maybe in the a.m. on the apron at Keeneland. I'll talk to him and suggest he contact Jonathan to get a qualified assessments on the needs of each of his horses.

(Hope I do ok--right after he turns to me in that soft spoken voice, says "WTF," and knocks me to the asphalt I'm standing on. In such case, maybe outside his barn would be better . . . . hitting the dirt wouldn't be as hard on me as hitting the asphalt.)

I guess, all in all, we don't agree on Steve. And that's ok, maybe I tend to look to the successes of each trainer.

[anglemaster]

GRITS you are the best.

John

[Fager Fan]

mcpeak originally bought curlin and started training him, helen pitts worked for mcpeak and took over when mcpeak retired from the game. helen pittss also married scott blassi's brother, the head assistant trainer for steve assmussen. that might have had something to do with why assmussen got curlin to begin with,

Are you sure about this timeline? I'm not sure there's all that much room for McPeak in there between the pre-trainer and when Pitts ran him to be crediting so much to McPeak.

[LA Racing Lady]

Asmussen is in my top trainer list.....but I am far from an expert on this subject. I know what I like and I like his horses, no matter what track or what class of horse, his are by far the best looking of the field. And they usually run pretty good, too. :cool:

[WinterTriangle]

Grits, I do like Steve for the everyday races and stakes stuff. He does seem to get lockjaw working with JJ though. Trainers often heave a (personal) sigh of relief when an owner leaves them. I have the strangest feeling Steve might just breathe that sigh when he is no longer training for JJ. Just a hunch.

Of course it's a matter of opinion, and I know you like him. I just don't have him quite as far up there as you do, because I haven't found a reason to. Understand, rating a trainer subjectively is something colored by our particular tastes, and there are so many, including euro, Aussie, ones I am rating him against.

BTW, not sure I would have brought up eight belles. That was sort of bad taste on your part, JMHO. I'm questioning whether you really "needed" that line to make your argument? If you needed to make a point about that particular trainer, I think you could have gone for something other than that. :ThmbDown:

[Dahoss9698]

Great post Grits.

[Grits]

BTW, not sure I would have brought up eight belles. That was sort of bad taste on your part, JMHO. I'm questioning whether you really "needed" that line to make your argument? If you needed to make a point about that particular trainer, I think you could have gone for something other than that. :ThmbDown:

JMHO, WT, but I stand comfortably with what I said, and I included Eight Belles for good reason.

You spoke glowingly of Larry Jones, yet you've got the gall to state, and have done so repeatedly for months, "Steve Asmussen gutted Rachel Alexandra in the Woodward Stakes running her in the ground. I could clearly see it and it was all I needed to see". Included in your assessment, are all the trainers that you're acquainted with there in Arkansas. Though, of course, its unclear how many stakes horses either of them have trained, or how many Eclipse awards are on their mantles. These knowing individuals have assisted you in your conclusions, along with your horse whispering friend who also is an authority on body language, and a physicality expert on "race readiness."

Honestly speaking and hopefully not offending you, the handicapping genius, the pedigree expertise, and the horse physiology expertise are all getting a bit grandiose.

If rating Steve and other trainers is your thing, that's good. I don't rate the trainers in my country against the trainers in Europe, Japan, Australia, or Dubai because, frankly, I don't give a damn how they train their horses. I live HERE, I support our game HERE. I've also read enough and own enough books about this game that I'm lead to understand our trainers have done a pretty good job for a mighty long time. This along with--I have more knowledge available to me in the form of past performances than I have for horses running elsewhere. There are ones I respect in Europe, yes, but still, they come over here to aim for the big money 2 days a year; I could care less what any of 'em do the other 363.

I don't debate too much here. I don't have the need to be widely recognized as knowledgable on anything. Nor do I travel to other forums to knock around my thoughts and opinions. I just handicap races, and love watching horses run.

One small thing I DO know, though, is that the post I wrote above is an ok one, its fair, and its balanced. More than I see from a number of posters recently.

(Forget the emoticon thing, they add nothing to my post. We don't agree here, and its more than obvious.)

[WinterTriangle]

If rating Steve and other trainers is your thing

I entered a topic, like 20-something other members did, asking if Steve Asmussen is a top 10 trainer.

Giving an opinion required ......rating Steve. :D

In retrospect, only by not entering the topic, or lying, could I have avoided your displeasure, Grits.


Honestly speaking and hopefully not offending you, the handicapping genius, the pedigree expertise, are all getting a bit grandiose.

Posting picks and providing my methods (pedigree, not BSF or PPs), is grandiose?

Heck Grits, I can't help it if they win. :lol:


Pre and post race, pages upon pages giving BSFs the nod, or pace handicapping, or . And many more pages arguing final times, final Q's , pace figs......(we are talking truly grandiose in sheer amount of output, and passion.)

Yet, it appears to "disturb" you that I post [i]equally as passionately about pedigree angles?

I was scratching my head when I was {helpfully} reminded of your philoosphy that pedigree handicapping is the way to the poorhouse. So, it that it?

All I can do is add this Disclaimer: When I post picks and/or mention pedigree reasoning, it is not meant as, nor should you interpret it as, a personal affront.

It has been lucrative for me, so I want to share it. There are a few other members (who expresssed their interest in PMs), and they are having a ball with the sites and stats.


I don't rate the trainers in my country against the trainers in Europe, Japan, Australia, or Dubai because, frankly, I don't give a damn how they train their horses. I live HERE, I support our game HERE.

I support US horseracing, with my wagering dollars and heart, etc.

I also play euro and aussie races....mostly because the money is awfully good.

By the tone of your words, you make that sound......scandalous.


they come over here to aim for the big money 2 days a year; I could care less what any of 'em do the other 363.

Do what YOU enjoy, Grits.

However, many have broader racing interests and do follow the foreign races.

I haven't encountered any problems with wagering, discussing, or praising non-US trainers and horses on any forums.


As for me saying they gutted RA for months now.....That would mean I got the jump on Hal Wiggins. :D I can't take credit. Maybe you are remembering the many other blogs and op-eds in the horseracing publications who were saying it.

[joanied]

JMHO, WT, but I stand comfortably with what I said, and I included Eight Belles for good reason.

You spoke glowingly of Larry Jones, yet you've got the gall to state, and have done so repeatedly for months, "Steve Asmussen gutted Rachel Alexandra in the Woodward Stakes running her in the ground. I could clearly see it and it was all I needed to see". Included in your assessment, are all the trainers that you're acquainted with there in Arkansas. Though, of course, its unclear how many stakes horses either of them have trained, or how many Eclipse awards are on their mantles. These knowing individuals have assisted you in your conclusions, along with your horse whispering friend who also is an authority on body language, and a physicality expert on "race readiness."

Honestly speaking and hopefully not offending you, the handicapping genius, the pedigree expertise, and the horse physiology expertise are all getting a bit grandiose.

If rating Steve and other trainers is your thing, that's good. I don't rate the trainers in my country against the trainers in Europe, Japan, Australia, or Dubai because, frankly, I don't give a damn how they train their horses. I live HERE, I support our game HERE. I've also read enough and own enough books about this game that I'm lead to understand our trainers have done a pretty good job for a mighty long time. This along with--I have more knowledge available to me in the form of past performances than I have for horses running elsewhere. There are ones I respect in Europe, yes, but still, they come over here to aim for the big money 2 days a year; I could care less what any of 'em do the other 363.

I don't debate too much here. I don't have the need to be widely recognized as knowledgable on anything. Nor do I travel to other forums to knock around my thoughts and opinions. I just handicap races, and love watching horses run.

One small thing I DO know, though, is that the post I wrote above is an ok one, its fair, and its balanced. More than I see from a number of posters recently.

(Forget the emoticon thing, they add nothing to my post. We don't agree here, and its more than obvious.)

I wasn't going to get into this topic, but I read through the posts and now I do have something to say...

I bolded part of your post to Winter T because IMO, saying WT's handicapping methods and that she posts her picks is grandiose is, well, outrageous...and so far off the mark I can hardly beleive you beleive that...
now, I don't want to offend you, Grits, but I doubt you should endeavor to doubt the methods that WT (or anyone for that matter) use to handicap races. There is a definite sarcastic tone to your use of terms such as 'pedigree expertise' in your post...but may I remind you, it might be a bit foolish to knock someones methods when those methods have been prooved time and time again to work...
that someone takes into account the physiology of the horse(s) he or she is handicapping does not need be made fun of...and that is what I took out of your post, that you think her methods are a joke...but, Winter T is the one laughing...all the way to the windows collecting her winnings...the very fact hse takes into account the three things you knock her for, are three of the things that make her a handicapper that wins way more than looses at the windows...
may I also say that I've never seen anything from WT that even suggests she thinks herself any sort of handicapping 'genious'...she just knows her stuff...her methods may not be like yours, her methods may seem way out there to you, but they work!!
Have you considered that it's possible some handicappers here may actually appreciate her methods and the fact that she shares them...not to give herself a pat on the back, but simply to share her ways with others...ya know what they say..."live and learn"...and there isn't a damned thing wrong with that.

I am not taking sides here, but I really think that as in all things, but especially in handicapping, no one persons methods are wrong, out there, or, dare I say...grandiose...they just are what they are.

[Dahoss9698]

You're still the best Joanied. God forbid someone disagrees with your hero.

:confused: :jump: :blush: :liar: :sleeping: :( :rolleyes: ;) :p :kiss:

[Grits]

Joanie, if you had wanted to address the thread question, it may have been a better choice because you don't understand that I wasn't doubting Winter Triangle's methods. She didn't get it either. She took one sentence out of my post and elaborated on IT, just as you have unfortunately. I don't care what her methods are. There are many here that can handicap as well, and some who can handicap rings around this poster. All day. (Done on this part.)

What concerns me more is there are many topics of which she is certainly not in a position to know any more about than the rest of us. Some posters here being even far more qualified than she. Still, she beats her points like the proverbial dead horse. AND THIS IS PARTICULARLY TRUE ABOUT THE FILLY, RACHEL ALEXANDRA AND HER TRAINER, STEVE ASMUSSEN. UNLESS THAT IS, SHE HAS BEEN IN HIS EMPLOY. I don't recall that she has. (While saying all of this I'm keeping in mind that, you, too, think the guy's a POS. But what the hell, we can't like everybody can we?)

"Acting" is not something I do well, Joanie. "Acting like I know more than I do" is not something I do well either. Nor will I attempt.

I have nothing to prove to anyone, I'm comfortable reading more, writing less, trying at times, to keep it light.

I don't speak up too much in these lengthy debates until I think someone's being grossly unfair--that I will do.

DONE WITH THIS THREAD. Thanks for your thoughts, and for your defense of your friend.

[joanied]

Joanie, if you had wanted to address the thread question, it may have been a better choice because you don't understand that I wasn't doubting Winter Triangle's methods. She didn't get it either. She took one sentence out of my post and elaborated on IT, just as you have unfortunately. I don't care what her methods are. There are many here that can handicap as well, and some who can handicap rings around this poster. All day. (Done on this part.)
I didn't address the thread topic because I don't care to rate Steve A. and my feelings about him are generally known...I spoke up on Winter T's part, and it really could have been anyone else, because it's pretty obvious, Grits, that you do care what handicapping methods she uses...if you don't care, then why tell her she's being grandiose about her handicapping...seems you do doubt them, and I pointed out that her methods work...and I think it's nice of her to share that with other members, afterall, there are many ways to handicap...and her way works...that she shares is certainly not being grandiose.
I didn't say no one else here aren't great handicappers, didn't even hint at it...because it's also obvious that this forum is loaded with good handicappers!
What concerns me more is there are many topics of which she is certainly not in a position to know any more about than the rest of us. Some posters here being even far more qualified than she. Still, she beats her points like the proverbial dead horse. AND THIS IS PARTICULARLY TRUE ABOUT THE FILLY, RACHEL ALEXANDRA AND HER TRAINER, STEVE ASMUSSEN. UNLESS THAT IS, SHE HAS BEEN IN HIS EMPLOY. I don't recall that she has. (While saying all of this I'm keeping in mind that, you, too, think the guy's a POS. But what the hell, we can't like everybody can we?)
I think what really concerns you is the fact she doesn't like Steve A., although it's certainly her right, and everyone elses right, to voice an opinion on any particular trainer...she is certainly not the only poster to say negative things about cetain trainers, and one doesn't need to have been employed by a trainer to have an opinion, and there have ceretainly been numerous words spoken about what happened to Rachel, everyone is entitled to voice whatever theory they have concerning that filly...for example, have you worked for Larry Jones? No, you haven't, yet you posted your opinion on him and Eight Belles...
"Acting" is not something I do well, Joanie. "Acting like I know more than I do" is not something I do well either. Nor will I attempt.
Are you defending yourself with that bolded part? I seriously doubt that anyone here is acting...I think everyone here posts with sincerity...why would anyone act...Grits, I think it's pretty hard for anyone to act like they know more than everyone else, and IMO, Winter T sure doesn't come across as if she does. If that is what you think she does, oh,well.
I have nothing to prove to anyone, I'm comfortable reading more, writing less, trying at times, to keep it light.
Didn't say you did...no reason to say that...guess you went against your rule of thumb, then, with you post to WinterT...and it sure wasn't 'light'...
I don't speak up too much in these lengthy debates until I think someone's being grossly unfair--that I will do.
Me too....guess that's why I jumped in with my post...I thought it unfair to call WT grandiose.

DONE WITH THIS THREAD. Thanks for your thoughts, and for your defense of your friend.
Yes, we are all welcome to post are thoughts here, aren't we...and in doing so, we open ourselves to the thoughts of others...that's what it's all about, but it's not about telling folks they are one thing or another...which happens alot here...and I am not the only one that has jumped into a thread because they felt another member needed a little backing...I would do that for anyone...just like some members have jumped in to back me in something I've said...or that you said...

Have a good one, Grits.

[lamboguy]

Are you sure about this timeline? I'm not sure there's all that much room for McPeak in there between the pre-trainer and when Pitts ran him to be crediting so much to McPeak.i know a little about curlin because he was originally broke and trained at another episode training center in ocala florida. the owner of that place is a lady by the name of Joane Everard, who happens to be my partners ex wife tony's ex husband. Mcpeak at that time bought curlin and brought him there just like he brought many others before him to get trained. while he was in training there mcpeak decided to take a leave of absense from horse race training. that is when helen pitts got curlin.

as far as i know today mcpeak has his own facility to do his own breaking and training now.