30 for 30: Charismatic

[Alacrity]

I was looking over at the 30 for 30 website earlier and I noticed that they've taken down the story on Charismatic and Chris Antley. Wtf?! Has anyone heard anything about it? I've been looking forward to this since last year and now I see it has been taken down. I don't know if they canceled it or are delaying it until next year. What a freakin bummer.

[Alacrity]

It premiere's next Tuesday, October 18th at 8 p.m eastern on ESPN. :)

http://www.espnmediazone3.com/us/2011/10/12/espn-films%E2%80%99-charismatic-to-premiere-on-october-18-on-espn/

[Casino]

It premiere's next Tuesday, October 18th at 8 p.m eastern on ESPN. :)

http://www.espnmediazone3.com/us/2011/10/12/espn-films%E2%80%99-charismatic-to-premiere-on-october-18-on-espn/

Chris Antley was a great rider..

[ManU918]

Seen the commercial for this yesterday, it looks really good.

[PaceAdvantage]

Thanks for bumping this thread...I don't want to forget about this...

[precocity]

remember betting 20 across on him in the Preakness and charismatic still had good odds. sad story all the way around will always remember the Belmont with Antley holding his leg up.RIP Antley...story brings back a lot of memories of my life around that time...

[jognlope]

Chris rode at the Spa one summer and I made sure I went a few times, could hear him chatting as he mounted up before a race, very southern accent. He killed himelf "by a blow to the back of the head" after removing a door. Right, sure, well I think the suspect whose car was seen careening from his home had a rich Dad, yes I believe that's how it goes.

[precocity]

Chris rode at the Spa one summer and I made sure I went a few times, could hear him chatting as he mounted up before a race, very southern accent. He killed himelf "by a blow to the back of the head" after removing a door. Right, sure, well I think the suspect whose car was seen careening from his home had a rich Dad, yes I believe that's how it goes.
In December 2000, Antley was found dead on the floor of his Pasadena, California home. The cause of death was severe blunt force trauma and was investigated by police as a homicide. Later, the coroner's report concluded that Antley had died of multiple drug overdose and the injuries were likely related to a fall caused by the drugs.

sounds fishy to me..

[precocity]

http://youtu.be/I84pHRkhiRM

[Valuist]

I remember being at the track seeing him win the Preakness and hearing some idiots yelling, "thats a claiming horse! He can't win the Preakness!

No, he WAS a claiming horse IN HIS PAST. Before he won the Lexington. And before he won a little race called the KY Derby. I guess some people are really stubborn to accept change.

[Grits]

In December 2000, Antley was found dead on the floor of his Pasadena, California home. The cause of death was severe blunt force trauma and was investigated by police as a homicide. Later, the coroner's report concluded that Antley had died of multiple drug overdose and the injuries were likely related to a fall caused by the drugs.

sounds fishy to me..

This man as talented as he was, as well liked as he was, still, troubled, a drug addict. Yes, a southern accent; he was born and raised in South Carolina and is buried there, as well. Battled drug addiction for many years. Yet, "sounds fishy to me" comes up 11 years out, after the coroner's autopsy and official COD is ruled as multiple drug overdose? Doesn't sound fishy to me, not in the least.

Jog, huh? What part of the ballfield are you tossing from? Talk about conjecture.

Think of a jockey's height--of Antley, whose not straight, loaded on drugs, booze, whatever was found in his system, apparent and determined at autopsy.

Do you know how to remove a door from its hinges? Have you ever climbed a ladder to do this by yourself? Antley, if alone, would HAVE to be on a ladder to even begin to reach the top hinge. Then, step down to reach the lower, and finally lift the weight of the door itself. Granted, if the drugs didn't kill him, yes, a fall from the ladder could've, particularly if the floor was tile or marble, etc. Too, do you know anything about construction? Or, the weight of, let's say, a solid core wood door, as opposed to some cheap hollow core piece of nothing constructed from veneer? Losing his balance, the door falling, causing a blow to his head. This could kill him.

Still, blame the unfortunate death of a drug addict on someone with a wealthy daddy in a car seen driving away from his home? Wow, what a stretch.

Man, only on the internet.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Grits..You are ripping up these posts today...Take a break hun and have a glass or two of wine :lol:

[Grits]

Grits..You are ripping up these posts today...Take a break hun and have a glass or two of wine :lol:

LOLOL:lol: I did, Tom, I just back from dinner with a couple of friends. I may even pour me an after dinner drink in a little while. I'll be good tomorrow, I promise.

Sometimes, I just think the internet can be harmful. Its so easy to talk about everyone's screw ups while online, but we're never in that person's shoes. We're just souls (and some days this is questionable) behind a keyboard. One's gotta really be tough to hang. Some days I don't do so good. And for this, I apologize to Hanover1 and to Jog.

[eastie]

Chris rode at the Spa one summer and I made sure I went a few times, could hear him chatting as he mounted up before a race, very southern accent. He killed himelf "by a blow to the back of the head" after removing a door. Right, sure, well I think the suspect whose car was seen careening from his home had a rich Dad, yes I believe that's how it goes.


he could fool anyone when he was doing the spanish voice. loved the Ant. RIP my man

[Alacrity]

Starts tonight!

3d8F8_1OOvk

[toussaud]

"D Wayne Lukas has got to be the single greatest horse trainer that ever lived"

:lol:

[Zippy Chippy]

I hate how they are acting like Lukas knew he had a hidden gem here. I think it was obvious that he was an afterthought to Cat Thief.

[Casino]

"D Wayne Lukas has got to be the single greatest horse trainer that ever lived"

:lol:

As Antley went by Stevens around the turn in the derby he said to him "told ya" referring to Antley's guarantee to win the derby.Classic line even funnier then Haskin saying Lukas greatest trainer of all time. :D

[toussaud]

straight out of the seabiscuit movie damn near


though I would be lying if I said it is not entertaining.

[toussaud]

"how high can he go". If that's not foreshadowing for you I don't know what is.

[Casino]

Amazing how it conquered Antley,and P.Val is still alive and riding.

[toussaud]

34 years old, way too young

[Casino]

34 years old, way too young

Back in the day he could ride with the best.

[Tom]

Pretty good show.

[Casino]

P.Val has been lucky has had several chances,pound for pound as talented as any jockey in his prime.

[cj's dad]

Pretty good show.

I agree Tom. Very well done IMO.

However:

what ever became of the strange circumstances surrounding CA's death?

How do you end up bloody and bruised from a drug OD ? Falling down ? I doubt it !

If it smells like fish, it must be fishy.

[toussaud]

I agree Tom. Very well done IMO.

However:

what ever became of the strange circumstances surrounding CA's death?

How do you end up bloody and bruised from a drug OD ? Falling down ? I doubt it !

If it smells like fish, it must be fishy.
not necessarily and it depends on the drug.

you can black out from meth. You can do weeks without sleep on meth, and there comes a point where your body just shuts down, regardless of where you are and what you are doing and just stops working.

OR, he could have had a cardiac arrest/heart attack. Meth is an amphetamine and speeds up the heart. The fact that they were cooking meth there, had an endless supply, it's very well that he could have just had one bump too much and it killed him via Drug enduced seizure

Also keep in mind, he's not the biggest guy on earth, and if he's doing the same amount as everyone else, just 50-80 pounds lighter, that's not a good recipe.


There aronly 2 additional "foul play scenarios" I could see playing out. One, he owed someone some money, they cam in and killed him and made it look like an OD. But he was cooking his own stuff so that's unlikey.

The other was that his room mate killed him, but not only d the wife not suspect it, why would he kill the guy who he is living with rent free? doesn't add up.

[PaceAdvantage]

I hate how they are acting like Lukas knew he had a hidden gem here. I think it was obvious that he was an afterthought to Cat Thief.Did you say the same about Frankel while he was parading around Peace Rules while Ghostzapper was stuck sprinting for a living?

[Jasonm921]

I enjoyed it. I thought it was done well.

[PaceAdvantage]

"D Wayne Lukas has got to be the single greatest horse trainer that ever lived"

:lol:Yeah, he blows:

American Classics / Breeders' Cup wins:
Kentucky Derby
(1988, 1995, 1996, 1999)
Preakness Stakes
(1980, 1985, 1994, 1995, 1999)
Belmont Stakes
(1994, 1995, 1996, 2000)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies
(1985, 1988, 1994, 1999, 2005)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile
(1986, 1987, 1988, 1994, 1996)
Breeders' Cup Sprint
(1988, 2002)
Breeders' Cup Turf Mile
(1989)
Breeders' Cup Distaff
(1985, 1986, 1987, 2000)
Breeders' Cup Classic
(1999)

Racing awards
Eclipse Award for Outstanding Trainer
(1985, 1986, 1987, 1994)
U.S. Champion Trainer by wins
(1987-1990)
U.S. Leading stakes-winning trainer (1985-1992)
U.S. Champion Trainer by earnings
(1983-1992, 1994-1997)
John W. Galbreath Equine Award (1998)

Honors
United States' Racing Hall of Fame (1999)
American Quarter Horse Hall of Fame (2007)

Significant horses
Trainer of 23 world champion Quarter horses
Thoroughbred flat racing horses:
Steinlen, Effervescing, Gulch, Althea, Capote, Serena's Song, Landaluce, Thunder Gulch, Timber Country, Winning Colors, Lady's Secret, Criminal Type, Charismatic, Grindstone

[shhail2]

Does anyone know where I can watch the 30 for 30? I had class and I forgot to DVR the episode and now I cant find it anywhere....

[HPFridays]

Youtube; search Charismatic ESPN and you'll find the four segments.

[toussaud]

Yeah, he blows:

American Classics / Breeders' Cup wins:
Kentucky Derby
(1988, 1995, 1996, 1999)
Preakness Stakes
(1980, 1985, 1994, 1995, 1999)
Belmont Stakes
(1994, 1995, 1996, 2000)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies
(1985, 1988, 1994, 1999, 2005)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile
(1986, 1987, 1988, 1994, 1996)
Breeders' Cup Sprint
(1988, 2002)
Breeders' Cup Turf Mile
(1989)
Breeders' Cup Distaff
(1985, 1986, 1987, 2000)
Breeders' Cup Classic
(1999)

Racing awards
Eclipse Award for Outstanding Trainer
(1985, 1986, 1987, 1994)
U.S. Champion Trainer by wins
(1987-1990)
U.S. Leading stakes-winning trainer (1985-1992)
U.S. Champion Trainer by earnings
(1983-1992, 1994-1997)
John W. Galbreath Equine Award (1998)

Honors
United States' Racing Hall of Fame (1999)
American Quarter Horse Hall of Fame (2007)

Significant horses
Trainer of 23 world champion Quarter horses
Thoroughbred flat racing horses:
Steinlen, Effervescing, Gulch, Althea, Capote, Serena's Song, Landaluce, Thunder Gulch, Timber Country, Winning Colors, Lady's Secret, Criminal Type, Charismatic, Grindstone


I'm not the only one with the opinion


ColinsGhost Kevin Martin
by The_Knight_Sky
Lukas the greatest horse trainer who ever lived? C'mon steve haskin you have more perspective then that




BTW Jeannie Edwards noted that D wayne declined for interview for the movie. Doesn't mean anything either way just pointing it out

[Paseana]

Yeah, he blows:

American Classics / Breeders' Cup wins:
Kentucky Derby
(1988, 1995, 1996, 1999)
Preakness Stakes
(1980, 1985, 1994, 1995, 1999)
Belmont Stakes
(1994, 1995, 1996, 2000)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies
(1985, 1988, 1994, 1999, 2005)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile
(1986, 1987, 1988, 1994, 1996)
Breeders' Cup Sprint
(1988, 2002)
Breeders' Cup Turf Mile
(1989)
Breeders' Cup Distaff
(1985, 1986, 1987, 2000)
Breeders' Cup Classic
(1999)

Racing awards
Eclipse Award for Outstanding Trainer
(1985, 1986, 1987, 1994)
U.S. Champion Trainer by wins
(1987-1990)
U.S. Leading stakes-winning trainer (1985-1992)
U.S. Champion Trainer by earnings
(1983-1992, 1994-1997)
John W. Galbreath Equine Award (1998)

Honors
United States' Racing Hall of Fame (1999)
American Quarter Horse Hall of Fame (2007)

Significant horses
Trainer of 23 world champion Quarter horses
Thoroughbred flat racing horses:
Steinlen, Effervescing, Gulch, Althea, Capote, Serena's Song, Landaluce, Thunder Gulch, Timber Country, Winning Colors, Lady's Secret, Criminal Type, Charismatic, Grindstone

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

I had problems from time to time with DWL, but anybody that questions his accomplishments either hasn't been in the game for very long, or has decided that where he is now defines his career.

He changed the game, folks, in a huge way. He took a model started by Jack Van Berg in the '70s and ran with it, turning the training game upside down in the process. He is no longer what he was, but the legacy he left in one Todd Pletcher is just incalculable.

Good or bad, it is what it is. Lukas did it......it's his fault.

[David-LV]

Lucas is not done yet!!!

_______
David-LV

[toussaud]

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

I had problems from time to time with DWL, but anybody that questions his accomplishments either hasn't been in the game for very long, or has decided that where he is now defines his career.

He changed the game, folks, in a huge way. He took a model started by Jack Van Berg in the '70s and ran with it, turning the training game upside down in the process. He is no longer what he was, but the legacy he left in one Todd Pletcher is just incalculable.

Good or bad, it is what it is. Lukas did it......it's his fault.
no.no.no.no.no.no.

you are changing the point. Mr. Haskin in the documentary said that D Wayne was "the best horse trainer that ever lived". I and ohters took fault with that

no one ever said the man couldn't train, or that he wasn't a good trainer or even hell a hall of fame trainer. that's obvious. But he's not the best trainer to ever walk the face of the earth as Mr. Haskin laid out. I'm not going to sit here and let it sound like i'm saying that D Wayne is a crappy trainer when I said nothing of the sort.

[PhantomOnTour]

I enjoyed the program...sad ending though.
Don't know what to make of Antley's death...some folks who are all cranked out will purposely harm themselves, esp if they think they have the bugs under their skin...anything can happen...no telling how it went down.

As for Lukas; still seething over Antley's Belmont ride. Didn't even appear on the show (as pointed out by a previous poster)...11yrs down the road.

Is he the greatest trainer ever? Hell, I don't know, but he's won a shitload of big races.
Actually, the biggest races.
Many times.

[toussaud]

why exactly was lukas so mad at the ride? Did Antley admit he screwed up? maybe he didn't want to get too far back from Silverbulletday and let her get away, maybe he wanted to get first run... don't think it was THAT bad a ride, it's not like he was off the board or anything.

In the Belmont it always seems like a few deep closers sit closer than normal.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not the only one with the opinion


ColinsGhost Kevin Martin
by The_Knight_Sky
Lukas the greatest horse trainer who ever lived? C'mon steve haskin you have more perspective then that




BTW Jeannie Edwards noted that D wayne declined for interview for the movie. Doesn't mean anything either way just pointing it outThe_Knight_Sky? Who's that? Is that the guy who used to shamelessly promote his blog on this board every single little chance he got?

Why should I value his opinion over Steve Haskin's?

[PaceAdvantage]

Lucas is not done yet!!!

_______
David-LVNeither is Lukas. And you can work that "David-LV" into your automated signature so you don't have to type it every single time...

[Tom]

why exactly was lukas so mad at the ride? Did Antley admit he screwed up? maybe he didn't want to get too far back from Silverbulletday and let her get away, maybe he wanted to get first run... don't think it was THAT bad a ride, it's not like he was off the board or anything.

In the Belmont it always seems like a few deep closers sit closer than normal.

I remember watching that Belmont and thinking....what is this idiot doing out there??????

And in my Charlie Sheen voice....Losing!

Then I felt bad after seeing what he did for the horse after he broke down.

MHO - he was murdered.

[Canarsie]

Amazing how it conquered Antley,and P.Val is still alive and riding.

I sort of lived this story and I'm lucky enough to be able to tell it. Before I start let me say I'm not proud of any of my behavior patterns when I was younger. But the facts are there and history can't change them because I won't allow it.

When I was growing up in Canarsie drugs were the rage we were the number two drug neighborhood in NYC right behind Harlem. By the time I was 16 there wasn't many drugs I hadn't tried including heroin. My favorite was barbiturates and they would be eaten like candy so I can equate with a meth user.

By the time 1971 rolled around six of my good friends had died of overdoses including a girl who I was extremely fond of. In fact every time I revisit Canarsie tears come to my eyes because of what could have been. The point is when she died that was basically it for me the decision was made to give up drugs. I did it on my own and never looked back. One guy was really smart I always thought he could compete for a Nobel Prize it was crushing when he passed.

So what am I saying through all of this you may ask. Individuals are very DIFFERENT and while I was able to stop lots weren't capable of or wanted to. A few went to rehab and most didn't last long before they were users again. It takes a tremendous amount of willpower to give up something that makes you feel really good most times. Most never think of the consequences that could happen.

So in this long winded story about drug addiction it starts with having to be 100% on board to conquer it. The slightest bit of doubt and the odds are high that you will trip up in your effort. My friends were really of no help most said something along these lines. “If you ever want to get high give me a call 24/7”. I don’t know what happened with Antley but the odds are someone was making the stuff readily available to him. Whether it was so called “friends” or dealers I guess we’ll never know.

The moral of this story is I hope PVal stays the course. Just watching the well-produced show should give him more determination to do so if needed. Not that he needs it but I'm rooting for him.

[Little Watermelon]

Lucas is not done yet!!!

_______
David-LV

I think Optimizer might be a good one. He's had outside posts his first three races and has run well. I'm hoping he gets overlooked in the BC Juvenile Turf.

[Pine Tree Lane]

For everyone's info:

Re-airing-

WEDNESDAY, OCT. 19
-- ESPN: 9 p.m.

SUNDAY, OCT. 23
-- ESPN: 10 p.m.
__________________

[Casino]

Yeah, he blows:

American Classics / Breeders' Cup wins:
Kentucky Derby
(1988, 1995, 1996, 1999)
Preakness Stakes
(1980, 1985, 1994, 1995, 1999)
Belmont Stakes
(1994, 1995, 1996, 2000)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies
(1985, 1988, 1994, 1999, 2005)
Breeders' Cup Juvenile
(1986, 1987, 1988, 1994, 1996)
Breeders' Cup Sprint
(1988, 2002)
Breeders' Cup Turf Mile
(1989)
Breeders' Cup Distaff
(1985, 1986, 1987, 2000)
Breeders' Cup Classic
(1999)

Racing awards
Eclipse Award for Outstanding Trainer
(1985, 1986, 1987, 1994)
U.S. Champion Trainer by wins
(1987-1990)
U.S. Leading stakes-winning trainer (1985-1992)
U.S. Champion Trainer by earnings
(1983-1992, 1994-1997)
John W. Galbreath Equine Award (1998)

Honors
United States' Racing Hall of Fame (1999)
American Quarter Horse Hall of Fame (2007)

Significant horses
Trainer of 23 world champion Quarter horses
Thoroughbred flat racing horses:
Steinlen, Effervescing, Gulch, Althea, Capote, Serena's Song, Landaluce, Thunder Gulch, Timber Country, Winning Colors, Lady's Secret, Criminal Type, Charismatic, Grindstone


PA, no question as far as accomplishments in the game no trainer will ever get close,but imo Whittingham maybe the greatest trainer of our lifetime.I have met Lukas down to earth loves talking horses til this day he says the best horse he ever trained was Landaluce.

[Casino]

I sort of lived this story and I'm lucky enough to be able to tell it. Before I start let me say I'm not proud of any of my behavior patterns when I was younger. But the facts are there and history can't change them because I won't allow it.

When I was growing up in Canarsie drugs were the rage we were the number two drug neighborhood in NYC right behind Harlem. By the time I was 16 there wasn't many drugs I hadn't tried including heroin. My favorite was barbiturates and they would be eaten like candy so I can equate with a meth user.

By the time 1971 rolled around six of my good friends had died of overdoses including a girl who I was extremely fond of. In fact every time I revisit Canarsie tears come to my eyes because of what could have been. The point is when she died that was basically it for me the decision was made to give up drugs. I did it on my own and never looked back. One guy was really smart I always thought he could compete for a Nobel Prize it was crushing when he passed.

So what am I saying through all of this you may ask. Individuals are very DIFFERENT and while I was able to stop lots weren't capable of or wanted to. A few went to rehab and most didn't last long before they were users again. It takes a tremendous amount of willpower to give up something that makes you feel really good most times. Most never think of the consequences that could happen.

So in this long winded story about drug addiction it starts with having to be 100% on board to conquer it. The slightest bit of doubt and the odds are high that you will trip up in your effort. My friends were really of no help most said something along these lines. “If you ever want to get high give me a call 24/7”. I don’t know what happened with Antley but the odds are someone was making the stuff readily available to him. Whether it was so called “friends” or dealers I guess we’ll never know.

The moral of this story is I hope PVal stays the course. Just watching the well-produced show should give him more determination to do so if needed. Not that he needs it but I'm rooting for him.

Carnarsie,good stuff.

[exactatom]

A very well done show. A couple of thoughts.

It made me sad to realize when I saw an early race at Hopllywood Park that the voice I heard was Luke Krytbosch. He left us way too young.

The story talked of the pressure getting to Antley between Preakness & Belmont. I wish someone could have convinced him to enjoy the ride of good luck and comeback he was on instead of trying so hard to please owners, trainers, etc. that he felt pressured.

Bob Lewis showed his loyalty by refusing to change riders before the Belmont.

No matter what you say about D. Wayne, he did change the industry. He implememnted and mastered the practice of cross country Thoroughbred Manangement to claim the most purse money possible for his horses. He brought new, rich investors into the sport and the trickle down effects benefit all of us who are fans and particpants in the sport.

Why does ESPN give such little coverage to horse racing stories? After they did the Sport Century of the greatest athletes of the 20th century, they continued the series doing 30 minute profiles of sports personalities. Why did the producers air segments on Jim Plunkett, Sterling Sharpe, etc. while never doing a 30 minute profile of D. Wayne, Baffert, etc.? I have written ESPN a few times on this and never got a response. Surely they could fill a 30 minute spot on the Coach simply following the people he brought into the sport ( Gene Kelin, Jerry Brown & Phyllis George, MC Hammer, etc.) if they wanted the show to be understandable for the novices.

[FantasticDan]

Barbara Livingston on Antley:

http://www.drf.com/blogs/chris-antley

[menifee]

This whole story is a non-issue if Pat Day gives my namesake a better ride in the Derby. Menifee was the better horse that day, though Charismatic was better in the Preakness.

I wish the piece had focused a little bit more on the horse rather than the rider, though the story of the rider is certainly uplifting and tragic. This notion that Lukas dropped that horse into claiming ranks to wake him up is a joke. Lukas never thought that the horse was going to win the Derby. Lukas would run his mother in the Derby if they had the earnings to qualify.

He thought Cat Thief was his better horse and got Smith. Charismatic was his second tier horse and got Antley. Charismatic found his talent at the right time. Lukas, Inc. had nothing to do with it. Sometimes it is better to be lucky than good.

This notion that Antley's ride cost Charismatic the triple crown is a joke.

[dinque]

thought that was the worst big race tactical ride i have ever seen...anywhere off the pace and he wins easy...and he may not break down as well...everyone talks about antley being a wonderful person with demons...i hate that "demon" phrase...he was a drug addict...also feel lukas is a total prick for publicly holding the ride against antly. say something nice even if you don't believe it..i feel he thinks HE got cheated out of the triple crown and not charismatic .....i guess the only babyface is the horse...

[Jasonm921]

Wayne off the plane in the late 80's and early 90's was one of the best plays in the sport. He feared no one and faced everyone.

[nijinski]

Barbara Livingston on Antley:

http://www.drf.com/blogs/chris-antley

Lovely photos , The many faces and emotions of Antley. Thanks. I was happy to see Jeff Lukas in the mix too , he often gave the leg up in the Classics and definately was a major part of Winning Colors success.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

That is a bit strong, not saying I loved the ride, but I see worse almost every day at the track.

ESPN would show more racing if it got ratings and made them money, racing obviously does not do enough of one or both.

They put Secretariat in the top 50 athletes from 1900-2000, they don't hate racing, they care as much as the public does.

[porchy44]

Blaming any rider for a horse breaking down by "pressing the pace"
just aint right.

[menifee]

Blaming any rider for a horse breaking down by "pressing the pace"
just aint right.

Exactly. If Lukas wants to cast blame - how about a three year old campaign that had the horse running about once every two weeks in a 5 month period as a three year old. The Belmont was his tenth start as a three year old. You didn't hear about that in the ESPN special.

I don't believe all of those races led to his breakdown either, but if you are going to start to cast aspersions...

Also, the horse ran nearly the same Beyer in the Lexington, Derby, Preakness and Belmont (107 or 108). The horse being on the pace didn't change how fast he ran. Lemon Drop Kid was just a better horse that day. The breakdown was simply an accident.

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't believe all of those races led to his breakdown either, but if you are going to start to cast aspersions...So then why did you write what you did just prior to writing you don't believe it? :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Exactly. If Lukas wants to cast blame - how about a three year old campaign that had the horse running about once every two weeks in a 5 month period as a three year old. The Belmont was his tenth start as a three year old.Oh yes...SHUDDER...what a grueling campaign... :lol:

See how nutty this sport has become? A campaign like that should be the NORM, not something to cast aspersions on. In fact, if he had been more lightly raced, he would likely have NEVER won the races he did.

How many horses break down in their 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th career start?

Short answer?

Plenty.

[Tread]

And how many horses develop career ending injuries because they are over-raced?

Plenty.

How many horses have come out of a triple crown run, or prep for a triple crown run where sometimes they are trying 3 races in 6 weeks, and have a significant injury?

Charismatic, Eight Belles, and Barbaro are just ones that have happened during the actual race. Countless others have serious injuries that are detected between races after these stressful campaigns. Nehro, Super Saver, I Want Revenge, Pioneer of the Nile, Denis of Cork, (Big Brown injured later in the year, who knows if it was the result of damage done during TC run).

This is just going back a couple of years.

There is a reason most stakes horses are only raced once a month at most and that 3 races in 5 or 6 weeks is unheard of, except when trying to qualify for or participate in the Triple Crown. Trainers are not idiots and they realize it is too hard on the horses.

[headhawg]

No, he WAS a claiming horse IN HIS PAST. Before he won the Lexington. And before he won a little race called the KY Derby.The fact that he ran in a $60K or so claimer cost me the trifecta in the Derby. I had him in the 2nd and 3rd slots but did not put him on top. I figured if the trainer/owner wanted to let him go he couldn't be that good. D'oh!

[PaceAdvantage]

Tread:

Then PETA is right. Shut this game down.

If what you say is true, then it is only going to get worse. Look how malformed this game has become in the last 30 years in terms of this coddling.

I still maintain that this is more the fault of copycat trainers who see someone successful at doing things one way, and it spreads like wildfire.

If it is indeed due to a "weakening of the breed," then they might as well pull the plug on the whole thing now, because it's not going to get any better without a serious industry-wide paradigm shift.

[KirisClown]

For anyone that missed it.. someone posted it on YouTube..

rH_yuKTj61Q


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tPlqDjeTnzQ

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_k-3bw7x0kU

[forced89]

For sale on Amazon for about $16 including S&H.

[Tread]

Tread:

Then PETA is right. Shut this game down.

If what you say is true, then it is only going to get worse. Look how malformed this game has become in the last 30 years in terms of this coddling.

I still maintain that this is more the fault of copycat trainers who see someone successful at doing things one way, and it spreads like wildfire.

If it is indeed due to a "weakening of the breed," then they might as well pull the plug on the whole thing now, because it's not going to get any better without a serious shift industry-wide paradigm shift.

How can it possibly be a question of whether or not any of that is true? All these injuries DID happen during the triple crown trail. And almost every trainer NEVER enters stakes quality horse in 3 races over a 5 or 6 week period (or 4 in 8 or 9, etc) except during pursuit of the triple crown. These are facts not open for debate.

What you call "coddling", it would appear most sound-minded horsemen call a smart approach to managing a stakes quality animal so it does not develop injuries. It does not mean the game needs to be shut down, but if we truly had the best interests of the horse in mind, we would not push them to do this much in such a short amount of time.

Old-timers will lament spacing out the races more cheapens the accomplishment compared to what past horses did. But listen to what you are saying. It's alright to put the horse thru a campaign where even a cursory statistical study tells you leads to injuries more often just to prove how "manly" you can be and attempt a gauntlet of races that you will never attempt again during the entire career of the horse. It is sacrificing the safety of the horse for "glory".

what has the trend been the last 10 years for the derby? Huge layoffs prior, 5 or 6 weeks, that used to be unheard of. These trainers get it. The best way to have a sound stakes horse is to space out their efforts.

[menifee]

So then why did you write what you did just prior to writing you don't believe it? :lol:

Because the ESPN special led you to believe that those in the barn felt that the ride led to the breakdown, which is absolute garbage. I don't know why the horse broke down, nobody does. I don't think the campaign led to the breakdown, but if you are going to start theorizing about its possible causes, you should at least mention the campaign in the special.

The bottom line on this is that you love Lukas and you'll defend him. Your posts on this board demonstrate your lack of objectivity. It's similar to how people still defend Al Davis despite the past 20 years of Raider mediocrity. Lukas was a good trainer 20 years ago - his record demonstrates why he is no longer. See Mine that Bird. His training of that horse was an absolute joke.

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't get people like you...well, actually I do...

Your attitude towards ME demonstrates your LACK of objectivity. You obviously aren't my biggest fan, which leads you to post interesting nonsense.

Case in point: nowhere in this thread or any Lukas-related thread for that matter of recent times, have I ever made the case that Lukas is still one of the top trainers in the game. But there you go, trying to put those words into my mouth by pointing out that he was good 20 years ago, but no longer is...only problem being that I never said he still is one of the best around.

Nevermind he won the Oaklawn training title this year...we'll ignore that for the moment.

Mine that Bird? Come on man...NO TRAINER on Earth (with the possible exception of a super-chemist) could have done anything with MTB. What a piss poor example.

I don't love Lukas. I respect his accomplishments, and objectively use those accomplishments to defend him against ignorants who like to claim he isn't one of the best trainers to ever grace this sport.

[depalma113]

And how many horses develop career ending injuries because they are over-raced?

Plenty.

How many horses have come out of a triple crown run, or prep for a triple crown run where sometimes they are trying 3 races in 6 weeks, and have a significant injury?

Charismatic, Eight Belles, and Barbaro are just ones that have happened during the actual race. Countless others have serious injuries that are detected between races after these stressful campaigns. Nehro, Super Saver, I Want Revenge, Pioneer of the Nile, Denis of Cork, (Big Brown injured later in the year, who knows if it was the result of damage done during TC run).

This is just going back a couple of years.

There is a reason most stakes horses are only raced once a month at most and that 3 races in 5 or 6 weeks is unheard of, except when trying to qualify for or participate in the Triple Crown. Trainers are not idiots and they realize it is too hard on the horses.

If 3 races in 6 weeks is too hard on horses, than why is a workout every six or seven days not? The horses are running at minimum a mile with the gallop out every week, but that is easier on a horse than a race?

Seems to me they have substituted workouts for racing because it is better for the bottom line. The horse still faces the same stress but the trainer doesn't. Trainers don't have to deal with an owner after losing a couple of races in a a few weeks. Instead he/she can make an excuse after they lose one and have an entire month of payments before they have to face that owner again. If they find an easy spot, they win and the owner thinks they are great and sends them even more horses to be raced fewer and fewer times.

When they get a good one. There is no reason to run the horse more often. The purses of the big races are so great, they can easily wait. Besides, it fits right into their marketing. Their methods are so good, they must be followed.

Funny how the weakest (claimers) can run every week, but the best athletes in the sport need far more time off.

As for the rest of the post.

Big Brown was not injured because of his Triple Crown run. He had hoof problems throughout his career. Even trying to bring him into any discussion about injuries in a Triple Crown campaign is grasping at straws.

About the horses you mentioned, only Super Saver, Pioneerof the Nile and Charismatic ran 3 races in 6 weeks. Since Big Brown was stopped in the Belmont, did he really run 3 races in 6 weeks? I guess he did.

It's always quite easy to grab a few examples to try and make a point. I guess I could do the same by saying running horses in 3 races in 6 weeks builds a foundation that results in Horse of the Year. Curlin, Rachel Alexander, Point Given, Charismatic.

[depalma113]

How can it possibly be a question of whether or not any of that is true? All these injuries DID happen during the triple crown trail. And almost every trainer NEVER enters stakes quality horse in 3 races over a 5 or 6 week period (or 4 in 8 or 9, etc) except during pursuit of the triple crown. These are facts not open for debate.

These are not facts, they are assumptions made by you. The only fact is that the horses had an injury. There is absolutely no proof that it is caused by the campaign. That is your assumption.

You tried to use Eight Belles and Barbaro, neither of which fit into your claim of 3 races over a 6 week period. Neither did I Want Revenge, who's injury occured in his stall, not on the racetrack. Those are facts.

Volponi ran 3 times in 5 weeks prior to his Breeders Cup Classic win. So I guess there is some room for debate.

[menifee]

I don't get people like you...well, actually I do...

Your attitude towards ME demonstrates your LACK of objectivity. You obviously aren't my biggest fan, which leads you to post interesting nonsense.

Case in point: nowhere in this thread or any Lukas-related thread for that matter of recent times, have I ever made the case that Lukas is still one of the top trainers in the game. But there you go, trying to put those words into my mouth by pointing out that he was good 20 years ago, but no longer is...only problem being that I never said he still is one of the best around.

Nevermind he won the Oaklawn training title this year...we'll ignore that for the moment.

Mine that Bird? Come on man...NO TRAINER on Earth (with the possible exception of a super-chemist) could have done anything with MTB. What a piss poor example.

I don't love Lukas. I respect his accomplishments, and objectively use those accomplishments to defend him against ignorants who like to claim he isn't one of the best trainers to ever grace this sport.

I actually respect you for starting this website. I don't have a problem with you personally. I don't even know you. I just disagree with approximately 95% of your posts.

The fact that you keep bringing up the Oaklawn training title says enough.

[PaceAdvantage]

I just disagree with approximately 95% of your posts.You have my sympathies.

[Tread]

These are not facts, they are assumptions made by you. The only fact is that the horses had an injury. There is absolutely no proof that it is caused by the campaign. That is your assumption.

You tried to use Eight Belles and Barbaro, neither of which fit into your claim of 3 races over a 6 week period. Neither did I Want Revenge, who's injury occured in his stall, not on the racetrack. Those are facts.

Volponi ran 3 times in 5 weeks prior to his Breeders Cup Classic win. So I guess there is some room for debate.

Are you kidding me with these responses? Workouts???? Those are run several seconds slower than the horse does during a race. The issue here is how many fully extended efforts a horse should attempt, efforts that test the boundaries of what horseflesh should do. Workouts, and horses that are only capable of 75 beyers or less are not at issue here. It's like the difference between me going out and running a 100 yd dash vs. Usain Bolt.

It's funny when people try to make your parameters more rigid than the original spirit clearly was in order to try to poke holes in it. Eight bells ran 3 races in 7 weeks, not 6, MY BAD. It doesn't have to be that many races or that many weeks. The point is, any other time in a horses career, those horses that are putting out the top stakes efforts are rarely run more than once a month. If this were not the safest way to conduct a campaign, more trainers would run more often because there is tons more money to be made.

If you run an effort like Barbaro did in the Derby, coming back after 2 weeks can be too soon. I'm not going to claim this caused his injury either, but you can bet dollars to doughnuts that had there not been this carrot of fame and fortune dangled out there that there is no way in hell the connections would have wheeled him back that quickly.

And then you give me an example of a horse who didn't get injured during 3 races in 5 weeks? That is absolutely laughable, and literally made me laugh out loud. No where during any of this did anyone claim that every horse that attempts this will get injured, or did I even come close to implying that. Your talking point is ridiculous and doesn't address the discussion at all.

What I did imply was, trainers who attempt this are rolling the dice by doing something that even a cursory look at the data would tell you INCREASES, NOT GUARANTEES, the possibility for injury. Take a look at the campaigns that connections use going into the Breeder's Cup where there is not the same pressure and tell me what the universally believed way to keep a horse sound is.

[depalma113]

Workouts are run several seconds slower? Really?

Bob Baffert's Derby horses bullets over the last several years.

Midnight Interlude 1:13 3/5 Derby 6 furlongs 1:14 2/5
Lookin at Lucky 1:12 Derby 6 furlongs 1:13 4/5
Pioneerof the Nile :46 1/5 Derby 4 furlongs :47 3/5
Sinister Minister 1:11 Derby 6 furlongs 1:11
Point Determined 1:24 1/5 Derby 7 furlongs 1:24 3/5 (stop watch)
Sort it Out :47 1/5 Derby 4 furlongs :48 3/5

Not a single of his horses ran faster in the derby than they did in their bullet work leading into the race. Now I know they had longer to run in the race, than their timed workout, but please don't believe that at a mile they are several seconds slower in their workout. It is a myth.

Just for the record

Barbaro :46 Derby 4 furlongs :46 3/5
Eight Belles :58 1/5 Derby 5 furlongs :58 3/5 (stop watch)

There may be other stresses on a horse because of a race, but speed is not. Plain and simple the workouts a week or two before the derby are substitutes for races. They are not some maintanence walk in the park several seconds slower than they would perform against other horses in a race.

Don't Get Mad 1:36 (Derby Trial) Derby Mile 1:37 2/5

Two races in eight days, 1st and 4th. I doubt he is/was the only animal capable of such an accomplishment.

As for the Breeders Cup, stop the nonsense. Other than a couple of Grade Ones at Saratoga, the spacing of Grade Ones is set up every four weeks.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not going to claim this caused his injury either, but you can bet dollars to doughnuts that had there not been this carrot of fame and fortune dangled out there that there is no way in hell the connections would have wheeled him back that quickly.If this is the prevailing ideology these days, then it's time to shutter the gates to every racetrack in North America.

What you are essentially saying is that any owner/trainer that goes after that "carrot of fame and fortune" is doing so at a substantially increased risk of injury and/or death.

Time to pack up and go home I say if that's the case.

[grant miller]

I read an awsome book about the antman bout a year ago It was his rise,trouble with wight gain ,fall and rise again to his run on carismatic I thinks barb L wrote it got the book out of the public libary! I believe the written word more than any wanna be espn doco-crap.(anybody believe the eanheart 30-30?).......

[nijinski]

PEB

[Grits]

I read an awsome book about the antman bout a year ago It was his rise,trouble with wight gain ,fall and rise again to his run on carismatic I thinks barb L wrote it got the book out of the public libary! I believe the written word more than any wanna be espn doco-crap.(anybody believe the eanheart 30-30?).......

Belief in the written word is good, but Barbara hasn't authored a book about Chris Antley. She knew and cared much for him. They were great friends. Could the book you read have been, Three Strides Before The Wire by Elizabeth Mitchell?