DR. Rick Arthur: Bute not in racings best interest

[rwwupl]

Poster note:

It is not unusual in California to have a race card with all horses on Lasix (Bute,Phenylbutazone)... even first time starters. If its only purpose is to prevent bleeding, you would think that a horse would have to bleed in a race or work out in order to get lasix. The drug is prohibited by International rules. It is allowed in the USA...Could this be a contributer to the breakdown problems in the USA?



http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/finalturn/archive/2010/09/15/bute-not-in-racing-s-best-interet-by-dr-rick-arthur.aspx

Excerpt:

Horses can’t talk. They can’t tell us their right ankle is hurting or that they hurt anywhere else. We can only determine if our horses have a problem by the signs they show such as lameness, heat, swelling, or other clinical indications of a problem. What do NSAIDs do? They hide pain and reduce inflammation. Both of these are important signs for anyone caring for horses.

I was a racetrack veterinarian for 30 years. The first thing I would do when I was asked to examine a horse was to inquire whether the horse was on Bute or other medication. I did so because many drugs, and especially Bute, interfere with a veterinarian’s ability to do a meaningful clinical examination.

This masking of clinical signs doesn’t apply to veterinarians alone. The jockey and trainer are in the same predicament. The horse feels fine to the jockey and looks fine to the trainer, whether the horse is fine or not. Dr. Tom Brokken, a well-respected racetrack practitioner from Florida and a member of the RMTC’s scientific advisory committee, believes the use of phenylbutazone is a bigger problem in training than it is in racing because trainers cannot get an accurate assessment of the soundness of their horses

[Charlie D]

Thanks Roger. Interesting article.

[Hanover1]

Poster note:

It is not unusual in California to have a race card with all horses on Lasix (Bute,Phenylbutazone)... even first time starters. If its only purpose is to prevent bleeding, you would think that a horse would have to bleed in a race or work out in order to get lasix. The drug is prohibited by International rules. It is allowed in the USA...Could this be a contributer to the breakdown problems in the USA?



http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/finalturn/archive/2010/09/15/bute-not-in-racing-s-best-interet-by-dr-rick-arthur.aspx

Excerpt:

.......Lasix (Bute, Phenylbutazone) :lol: another well informed bettor. Lasix has NOTHING to do with Bute my friend......yet we post as such. Yet another example of how much we DO know about the industry, while we cry for change.
Mullins may be a clown, but he nailed it........

[PhantomOnTour]

.......Lasix (Bute, Phenylbutazone) :lol: another well informed bettor. Lasix has NOTHING to do with Bute my friend......yet we post as such. Yet another example of how much we DO know about the industry, while we cry for change.
Mullins may be a clown, but he nailed it........
Thank you. Lasix is Furosemide and Bute is Phenylbutazone. I have had this same argument/disagreement with too many horseplayers that it drives me crazy.....LASIX AND BUTE ARE TWO DIFFERENT DRUGS!!!!!!!

However Hanover, I presume you are referring to the Mullins quote about us all being idiots...? Coming from someone whom I am guessing owns or trains horses, you are putting yourself in the company of Mullins....if we're all stupid you are all crooked cheaters.

[thaskalos]

We have been talking about these issues for many years...and nothing has ever come out of it. There is no sector of this "industry" bold enough to tackle this controversial matter.

Of course these drugs are the major reason for the increased breakdowns...what else can it be? The racing surfaces?

Bute, coupled with all the illegal "numbing" agents in the game today, make it impossible for even the horse to know that it has a hurt limb...until it's too late.

And to think that we were conned into believing that these "legal" drugs would make the horses more durable...

[thaskalos]

This is the whole point of this entire article...IMO.

"...90% of all horses suffering fatal muscluloskeletal injuries have pre-existing pathology at the site of the fatal injury."

Why would a sentence like this be burried near the end of the article, instead of it being the title...in bold letters, for everyone to see?

These fatal injuries are not "accidents" waiting to happen. They are pre-existing conditions...improperly treated, and "covered up".

[Charlie D]

One can only conclude $$$ are more important than horse and jockey welfare to the people owning and training. In other words, horsemen don't give a toss because if they did they would not be sticking all these drugs into these horses.

[rwwupl]

.......Lasix (Bute, Phenylbutazone) :lol: another well informed bettor. Lasix has NOTHING to do with Bute my friend......yet we post as such. Yet another example of how much we DO know about the industry, while we cry for change.
Mullins may be a clown, but he nailed it........

Hanover1 and PhantomOnTour,

Criticism accepted, please grant me a senior moment, and do not conclude that all horseplayers are stupid.. (me, yes thats O.K.). I do know the difference and I made a mistake.

For more information:

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/info_pheny.htm

Excerpt:

Phenylbutazone (Bute) Use in HorsesAuthor: Dr. Bob Wright - Veterinary Scientist, Equine and Alternative Livestock/OMAFRA
Creation Date: 01 December 2004
Last Reviewed: 01 December 2004
Phenylbutazone (Bute) is an analgesic (relieves pain) and anti-inflammatory medication, commonly used for the treatment of lameness in horses. It belongs to a group of medications known as non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDS). Phenylbutazone is available in many preparations for horses, including 1-gram tablets, oral paste syringes (containing 6 grams or 12 grams/syringe), an injectable (200 mg/ml in 100-ml vials) and oral powder. Bute is one of the most common medications administered to horses. Therefore, horse owners should be well aware of the health risks associated with this medication and the potential interactions that may occur when more than one medication is administered at the same time.

Horse owners should take care not to inhale the powder or ingest bute. Hands should be washed immediately after administering to prevent oral contamination since, in humans, bone marrow, renal, cardiovascular and gastrointestinal side effects are associated with use of this medication.

[nijinski]

I've always been appalled with the liberal use of Bute for training and racing.

Any horse lover should be. It was taken off market for human use , that's eye opening enough. Another huge red flag concerning the dangers of bute
is that the slaughter market has been warned against using horses treated
with it. These horses cannot be used in the human food chain because of
the potential dangers to those who consume horsemeat.

Slaughter and horsemeat consumption BTW are dispicable to me , but the ban
and rulings of Bute in that industry clearly says something in a huge way
regarding the frequent use of Bute and it's dangers to our beloved horses.

[turfnsport]

Slaughter and horsemeat consumption BTW are dispicable to me , but the ban
and rulings of Bute in that industry clearly says something in a huge way
regarding the frequent use of Bute and it's dangers to our beloved horses.

So, just so I am clear... that makes Hanover and Mullins the idiots, right?

[PaceAdvantage]

.......Lasix (Bute, Phenylbutazone) :lol: another well informed bettor. Lasix has NOTHING to do with Bute my friend......yet we post as such. Yet another example of how much we DO know about the industry, while we cry for change.
Mullins may be a clown, but he nailed it........So you think this wasn't at typo...you actually believe the original poster isn't aware that Bute and Lasix are two separate and distinct drugs used for two separate and distinct purposes?

[nijinski]

So, just so I am clear... that makes Hanover and Mullins the idiots, right?

I didn't call anyone names , just sharing what I strongly oppose.
The subject of slaughter has been debated over and over again ,
and we all have our opinions on it . But my focus was on the banning
of Bute for humans and for those who consume horsemeat , then lets
stop the liberal use of it on horses if it's potentially dangerous.

[pandy]

Lasix and Bute should both be banned, racing was better without them, they don't use these drugs in the rest of the world and they don't have as many breakdowns as we have here.

[PhantomOnTour]

Lasix and Bute should both be banned, racing was better without them, they don't use these drugs in the rest of the world and they don't have as many breakdowns as we have here.
Right on :ThmbUp:

I knew quite a bit about lasix but was largely ignorant about bute and how bad it can be before reading this thread. Highly toxic to humans, not much better for horses. Besides Cali what other states allow bute?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

.......Lasix (Bute, Phenylbutazone) :lol: another well informed bettor. Lasix has NOTHING to do with Bute my friend......yet we post as such. Yet another example of how much we DO know about the industry, while we cry for change.
Mullins may be a clown, but he nailed it........
My guess is that over 95% of the Horseplayers on this board know the difference between Lasix and Bute. I could be wrong, but that is my guess.

[Spalding No!]

Criticism accepted, please grant me a senior moment, and do not conclude that all horseplayers are stupid.. (me, yes thats O.K.). I do know the difference and I made a mistake.

No big deal. As one enlightened poster (I think he was a "horseman") said as an epitaph before a self-imposed exile from PA:

Better forums to discuss horseracing without ridicule are out there.

Hopefully, that person is fighting the good fight somewhere else in cyberspace.

[turfnsport]

I didn't call anyone names , just sharing what I strongly oppose.
The subject of slaughter has been debated over and over again ,
and we all have our opinions on it . But my focus was on the banning
of Bute for humans and for those who consume horsemeat , then lets
stop the liberal use of it on horses if it's potentially dangerous.

I agree 100% with your original post...I was just pointing out that between Roger's slip up (that Hanover pointed out, basically calling him an idiot) and horsemen using Bute, the idiot meter seems to lean toward the latter.

[Tom]

Lasix/bute = substitution for intelligent training, IMHO.

A big needle and big mouth is all a lot of today's trainers are.

(Not lamboguy or McShell! ;))

[The_Knight_Sky]

Lasix/bute = substitution for intelligent training, IMHO.



And now we have a few addicts who object :ThmbDown: to the a proposed rule change.
Gues where they are from?
If they're not part of the solution, they are part of the problem.



In formal statements filed with the committee, several leading horsemen’s groups, including the National Horsemen’s Benevolent and Protective Association, the Thoroughbred Owners of California, and the California Thoroughbred Trainers, objected to the change, contending that a lower threshold would put far more horsemen at risk for a positive for the drug even if the intent of administration was purely therapeutic and outside the allowable 24-hour window.

http://www.drf.com/news/rule-would-lower-bute-threshold-level

[nijinski]

And now we have a few addicts who object :ThmbDown: to the a proposed rule change.
Gues where they are from?
If they're not part of the solution, they are part of the problem.



In formal statements filed with the committee, several leading horsemen’s groups, including the National Horsemen’s Benevolent and Protective Association, the Thoroughbred Owners of California, and the California Thoroughbred Trainers, objected to the change, contending that a lower threshold would put far more horsemen at risk for a positive for the drug even if the intent of administration was purely therapeutic and outside the allowable 24-hour window.

http://www.drf.com/news/rule-would-lower-bute-threshold-level
They are probably still traumatized by their steroid rulings some years back
lol.

[toussaud]

lasix is a drug that helps with bleeding but also is a dlultric.


bute is short for phenylbutazone which is a non-steroidal anti inflammatory drug or NSAID for short that works alot like ibuprofen, which, actually is another nsaid.

they don't do the same things. that's like saying, nyquill and petpo bismol do the same thing.

[magwell]

By not using Lasix on a horse is the same as not wearing a seatbelt, why wait for a accident to happen before you wear it. There is serious damage to the lungs when a horse bleeds, best to be safe than sorry, Bute is a whole different story .....:cool:

[Charlie D]

Apparently veteran trainer B Hills has took home the 2010 Northern Dancer without the aid of Lasix.


Amazing, the majority of horses from other parts of world manage quite well without the aid of seatbelts, but in USA seatbelts are needed because there are accidents waiting to happen.

Go figure.

[magwell]

Apparently veteran trainer B Hills has took home the 2010 Northern Dancer without the aid of Lasix.


Amazing, the majority of horses from other parts of world manage quite well without the aid of seatbelts, but in USA seatbelts are needed because there are accidents waiting to happen.

Go figure. Amazing how many horses from other parts of the world are FTL when they come here.... Think there might be something to it ? :)

[Charlie D]

Amazing how many horses from other parts of the world are FTL when they come here.... Think there might be something to it ? :)


Yes your right, there might be something to it. Does it mask Cobra Venom???

[pandy]

Horses raced for many years without lasix and still race all over the world, harness and thoroughbreds, without lasix and do just fine. Lasix should not be allowed and was a mistake right from the beginning. It was supposed to be used on the occasional bleeder, not every horse like it is now. It can hide other illegal drugs and like most drugs it has bad side effects. I think you can make a case that the thoroughbreds in Europe are generally stronger and healthier than our horses.

[Charlie D]

These lot call themselves horsemen

http://www.rmtcnet.com/content_recentrulings.asp



:lol:

[pandy]

Good post Charlie, I was not aware of that site.

[PhantomOnTour]

These lot call themselves horsemen

http://www.rmtcnet.com/content_recentrulings.asp



:lol:
Loaded with trainers from Canterbury...what's goin on up there?

[Charlie D]

Loaded with trainers from Canterbury...what's goin on up there?


People sticking all sorts into amazing animals that should do us the favour of sticking these things into themselves.

[Charlie D]

Oh and btw Phantom, don't call them trainers as it's an insult to those that can get horses to run to thier best without these potions.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Loaded with trainers from Canterbury...what's goin on up there?
Unfortunately, they don't get info from every jurisdiction.

[46zilzal]

Furosemide: the biggest sham in horse racing

[46zilzal]

As we had a poor animal stagger off the track in the first yesterday, I talked to the vet and it was due to a loss of electrolytes. The poor animal staggered for about 10 minutes before getting to its feet.

We talked and she substantiated the fact that Bute and Furosemide interact negatively (prostotoglandin release decreases diuretic effects)and can cause kidney damage over time and are not properly used

[macguy]

Hay, Oats and Water, back in the day when horses ran twice a week.
Lasix, Bute and Clenbuterol, now struggling to get the horses racing once a month.

The medications were supposed to help the breed, not hinder it.

[46zilzal]

Hay, Oats and Water, back in the day when horses ran twice a week.
Lasix, Bute and Clenbuterol, now struggling to get the horses racing once a month.

The medications were supposed to help the breed, not hinder it.
When they are use with symptoms not giving them as indiscriminately prophylaxis.

[46zilzal]

interactions causing reduced pharmacological effect between bute/lasix
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7486400
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/info_pheny.htm
http://www.ophsource.org/periodicals/ophtha/medline/related/MDLN.9686888

a variety of studies show much the same result

[andymays]

Upset Lingers Over Proposed Bute Regulation | BloodHorse.com
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59000/upset-lingers-over-proposed-bute-regulation

Excerpt:

The National Horsemen’s Benevolent and Protective Association, with about 30,000 members in North America; Thoroughbred Owners of California; and California Thoroughbred Trainers oppose the change.

Florida HBPA executive director Kent Stirling, who chairs the National HBPA Medication Committee, said Sept. 22 the RMTC, of which he is a member, has long had a policy of requiring a “preponderance of scientific research” before it recommends changes in medication rules. He contends not enough work has been done on phenylbutzone, commonly called bute.

“We’re supposed to be looking for scientific evidence,” Stirling said. “Where is it? This was a rush to judgment. Maybe this (issue) needs to go back so a little more research can be done.”

[thaskalos]

Upset Lingers Over Proposed Bute Regulation | BloodHorse.com
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59000/upset-lingers-over-proposed-bute-regulation

Excerpt:

The National Horsemen’s Benevolent and Protective Association, with about 30,000 members in North America; Thoroughbred Owners of California; and California Thoroughbred Trainers oppose the change.

Florida HBPA executive director Kent Stirling, who chairs the National HBPA Medication Committee, said Sept. 22 the RMTC, of which he is a member, has long had a policy of requiring a “preponderance of scientific research” before it recommends changes in medication rules. He contends not enough work has been done on phenylbutzone, commonly called bute.

“We’re supposed to be looking for scientific evidence,” Stirling said. “Where is it? This was a rush to judgment. Maybe this (issue) needs to go back so a little more research can be done.”Imagine the National HBPA's reaction if a TOTAL ban on bute was ever suggested...

[Hanover1]

The only documented evidence we seem to have at this point suggests that the users in favor of vs those opposed, outnumber them by the tens of thousands.....gee, numbers do lie?
Theraputic vs abusive treatment is best left to practiced, honest vets, not handicappers. The Doc here had his moment, yet Bute has been in use for DECADES, by many of the greatest horses you ever laid eyes on...common practice. Guess its back to other segments of the industry we wish we could control in our favor.....this is a non issue on the backside, I assure you. Ever ask why aspirin or other drugs are not used in its place?? Care to know the answers? Doubt it....bleed on oh liberal ones. Conservative horsemen everywhere are using Bute this very moment as part of a sucessfull program, and have done so for decades as I stated.
Spend more energy on the take-out rates (hows that workin for ya?), and leave the horses to the horesmen......
If it gets to the point where all tracks close, and the sport dies as it is now, (yeah right) rich men will STILL race horses against one another just for sport, as has been done for thousands of years...and they will employ horsemen (imagine that...). Only minions will be allowed to place wagers, and that would be forbidden. Since the sport has gone to hell in a handbasket by many accounts here on PA, and the horsemen are to blame, then perhaps one of us is in the wrong game?
You don't write the rules, and have no say in the matter, so where do you get off? Loving horses is wonderful...go adopt a few 2k claimers and feed them awhile if thats the case. If you can't pony up to contribute to the welfare of a horse, then your pissing up a rope.
John F Simpson Jr

[andymays]

The only documented evidence we seem to have at this point suggests that the users in favor of vs those opposed, outnumber them by the tens of thousands.....gee, numbers do lie?
Theraputic vs abusive treatment is best left to practiced, honest vets, not handicappers.

I agree. Horseplayers have a right to a fair contest but shouldn't be telling Horse Owners and their Vets how to take care of their horses.

[FenceBored]

The only documented evidence we seem to have at this point suggests that the users in favor of vs those opposed, outnumber them by the tens of thousands.....gee, numbers do lie?
Theraputic vs abusive treatment is best left to practiced, honest vets, not handicappers. The Doc here had his moment, yet Bute has been in use for DECADES, by many of the greatest horses you ever laid eyes on...common practice. Guess its back to other segments of the industry we wish we could control in our favor.....this is a non issue on the backside, I assure you. Ever ask why aspirin or other drugs are not used in its place?? Care to know the answers? Doubt it....bleed on oh liberal ones. Conservative horsemen everywhere are using Bute this very moment as part of a sucessfull program, and have done so for decades as I stated.
Spend more energy on the take-out rates (hows that workin for ya?), and leave the horses to the horesmen......
If it gets to the point where all tracks close, and the sport dies as it is now, (yeah right) rich men will STILL race horses against one another just for sport, as has been done for thousands of years...and they will employ horsemen (imagine that...). Only minions will be allowed to place wagers, and that would be forbidden. Since the sport has gone to hell in a handbasket by many accounts here on PA, and the horsemen are to blame, then perhaps one of us is in the wrong game?
You don't write the rules, and have no say in the matter, so where do you get off? Loving horses is wonderful...go adopt a few 2k claimers and feed them awhile if thats the case. If you can't pony up to contribute to the welfare of a horse, then your pissing up a rope.
John F Simpson Jr

Which of the following organizations constitute "horseplayers" to you?
Recommendations to make the change came from:

The RCI Regulatory Veterinarians Committee,
RCI Drug Testing Standards and Practices Committee,
Racing Medication and Testing Consortium,
The Jockey Club Thoroughbred Safety Committee,
Jockeys’ Guild,
Thoroughbred Owners and Breeders Association, and
American Association of Equine Practitioners.
-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59000/upset-lingers-over-proposed-bute-regulation

[bisket]

lasix? yeah it helps a horse by allowing it to not fill its lungs with blood while running. although try doing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7l6jg4Hlog

then go out and physically give a total effort to win a competitive competition in 90 degree heat..... without much water to help you from dehydrating

[46zilzal]

lasix? yeah it helps a horse by allowing it to not fill its lungs with blood while running. although try doing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7l6jg4Hlog

then go out and physically give a total effort to win a competitive competition in 90 degree heat..... without much water to help you from dehydrating
We have had about 5 almost go down out of dehydration and the RAMPANT use of this medication is now FASHIONABLE not PHYSIOLOGICAL

[Hanover1]

The biggest problem with the Lasix that I have seen is simple-these young trainers, in an attempt to find something they have overlooked/missed, use the stuff, and really don't understand the full ramnifications of its use, both long term and short for that matter. Its as if it will somehow bring about the improvement they are missing, or forgot to instill in the horse to begin with. Kind of like grasping at straws, even though they know its a diuritic.
The misconception of its masking agent properties is largly myth these days. Despite lack of uniform-drug specific types of testing (regarding these new synthetics, ect...) we are way beyond getting something on anyone by using Lasix as a means. (about 25 years in fact).

[Hanover1]

Which of the following organizations constitute "horseplayers" to you?
Recommendations to make the change came from:

The RCI Regulatory Veterinarians Committee,
RCI Drug Testing Standards and Practices Committee,
Racing Medication and Testing Consortium,
The Jockey Club Thoroughbred Safety Committee,
Jockeys’ Guild,
Thoroughbred Owners and Breeders Association, and
American Association of Equine Practitioners.
-- http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59000/upset-lingers-over-proposed-bute-regulation



Many of wich...couldn't pass a vote in a Porsche........

[FenceBored]

Many of wich...couldn't pass a vote in a Porsche........

Yeah, whatever that means. :rolleyes: But, they ain't the horseplayers.

[PaceAdvantage]

This Hanover guy seems quite defensive. I wonder why...

[Valuist]

I've always contended that Lava Man's problem with poor performance outside Cali was due to not racing on Bute.

Great source of overbet favorites: ship ins who've been racing on Bute now racing at a venue that does not allow race day Bute.

[bigmack]

Great source of overbet favorites: ship ins who've been racing on Bute now racing at a venue that does not allow race day Bute.
An 'edge' in the today's game is tough to come by. E.Dahlman & others ran with shoes/caulks, et al.

Looks like a good time to dial-in on meds from state2state.

[Ernie Dahlman]

An 'edge' in the today's game is tough to come by. E.Dahlman & others ran with shoes/caulks, et al.

I've found the only way I've been able to stay profitable is by cutting down on the number of my bets and my bet size. I'm betting about 25% of what I used to bet in NY before the ban on caulks.

[Charlie D]

Interesting business model horse racing has. It seems to be called, discourage the customer instead of encouraging the customer. :D

[46zilzal]

I've always contended that Lava Man's problem with poor performance outside Cali was due to not racing on Bute.

.
Bute's PHARMACOLOGICAL EFFECT lasts about 3 to 4 days after any blood positive clears so that really doesn't hold up.

[Hanover1]

This Hanover guy seems quite defensive. I wonder why...

My record is public info and clean my friend. My issue is with those of the gambling crowd that insist that "supertrainers" ect, ad nauseum, are cheating, and can't spell out any reasonable facts to back up these statements. Since I won a few driving titles in my day, I suppose I cheated too? You think any of us are happy to learn we need to muster funds to battle this issue, yet again, for the umteenth time. A few make the whole barrel rotten in the eyes of many, yet I WILL defend those of us that are, and always have been, clean......still wondering?
John F Simpson Jr (feel free to research my records at any time)

[pandy]

Mr. Simpson, I know your record well and I know that you are one of the honest horsemen, I applaud your record and accomplishments. But certainly guys like Lou Pena, who I'm sure you're aware of, make a mockery of the sport. Doesn't that bother you? Shouldn't we do everything we can to have a level playing field?

[thaskalos]

My record is public info and clean my friend. My issue is with those of the gambling crowd that insist that "supertrainers" ect, ad nauseum, are cheating, and can't spell out any reasonable facts to back up these statements. Since I won a few driving titles in my day, I suppose I cheated too? You think any of us are happy to learn we need to muster funds to battle this issue, yet again, for the umteenth time. A few make the whole barrel rotten in the eyes of many, yet I WILL defend those of us that are, and always have been, clean......still wondering?
John F Simpson Jr (feel free to research my records at any time)I too am aware of your record Mr. Simpson...but, with all due respect...shouldn't your "issue" be with those "crooked" HALL OF FAME members of the Harness racing industry, whose shady exploits are responsible for the sad state that Harness racing finds itself in right now?

A very good friend of mine was in a court room years ago, when Chicago Harness racing "legend" Daryl Busse was asked by the judge if he had ever participated in "fixed" races.

Would you care to guess what Mr. Busse's reply was?

[PaceAdvantage]

My issue is with those of the gambling crowd that insist that "supertrainers" ect, ad nauseum, are cheating, and can't spell out any reasonable facts to back up these statements.Let's name some "supertrainers" and then let's see how many of them have ever had a test come back positive for an illegal substance.

Would you like to begin?

[Hanover1]

Mr. Simpson, I know your record well and I know that you are one of the honest horsemen, I applaud your record and accomplishments. But certainly guys like Lou Pena, who I'm sure you're aware of, make a mockery of the sport. Doesn't that bother you? Shouldn't we do everything we can to have a level playing field?

A level playing field, sadly, will probably never exist. Segments have been underhanded since my early days in the 50's.
Mr Pena will suddenly experience a lenghty cooling off period once we get a handle on this newest fad drug and it is routinely tested for, and I am far from alone with this angle.
For what its worth, coffee shop talk indicates his days are limited.

[Hanover1]

I too am aware of your record Mr. Simpson...but, with all due respect...shouldn't your "issue" be with those "crooked" HALL OF FAME members of the Harness racing industry, whose shady exploits are responsible for the sad state that Harness racing finds itself in right now?

A very good friend of mine was in a court room years ago, when Chicago Harness racing "legend" Daryl Busse was asked by the judge if he had ever participated in "fixed" races.

Would you care to guess what Mr. Busse's reply was?

Half of Yonkers was once looking at jail time including those at the top of the game who regularly started every night there. While I hated the constant travel required to run the shed, I was grateful I never stuck around long enough to ever get involved in those deals. This included at least 2 HOF members, one of wich did pay the price.......

[Hanover1]

Let's name some "supertrainers" and then let's see how many of them have ever had a test come back positive for an illegal substance.

Would you like to begin?

Uniform threshhold levels, or lack thereof answers many of those questions, and I give you credit for at least knowing this........

[bigmack]

I've found the only way I've been able to stay profitable is by cutting down on the number of my bets and my bet size. I'm betting about 25% of what I used to bet in NY before the ban on caulks.
E - I suspect I know the answer but does NYRA still get the brunt of your action?

[Ernie Dahlman]

[QUOTE=bigmack]E - I suspect I know the answer but does NYRA still get the brunt of your action?[/QUOTE

Yes, NYRA does get the brunt of my action. I'm starting to like Monmouth quite a bit though.

[Robert Fischer]

supertrainers that cheat to win, rather than cheat to bet tend to be easier on serious players

the large trainers-gap does however affect the pools a great deal

[PaceAdvantage]

Uniform threshhold levels, or lack thereof answers many of those questions, and I give you credit for at least knowing this........Well, if that's the road you're going to travel down, one would think more than half the population of trainers at each and every track should be on suspension...if indeed it's that easy to get busted.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Here's my problem with prohibiting bute or scaling back the threshold to levels that indicate administration far enough out from posttime as its presence is unlikely to have any significant effect:

The consensus here seems to imply that if there's a way there's a will and vice versa and contemporary trainers are nothing more than hacks with the vet on speed dial - so, if you eliminate a comparatively innoccuous treatment (bute) that is widely, regularly, and almost OCD-like used for a specific purpose, then what is used in lieu of that treatment to achieve the same effect?

I'd like to see most analgesics and anti-inflammatories excised from the regular treatments of runners, but in order to do so, it seems awfully logical to me that you had better be much better equipped to deal with the other end of the medication/treatment spectrum if you are going to encroach on the legal, therapeutic medication.

I like the idea, I really do. But I truly see this as a case of (racing/this group) having a mountain of issues to address and unfortunately, prioritizing erroneously and ultimately creating a scenario where solving one problem creates an entirely new and potentially more troublesome one.

[Hanover1]

Well, if that's the road you're going to travel down, one would think more than half the population of trainers at each and every track should be on suspension...if indeed it's that easy to get busted.

The overwhelming amount of positives occuring are a result of improper use of legal drugs. To take it further, most of those are also the result of trainer responsibility rules, and never discloses who actually administered the drug (usually an assistant who calls the vet, miscalculates/overadministers legal drugs, such as Clenbuterol, ect.....and it has never failed to be detected when tested.
I suppose that my main beef concerning all this is the lack of understanding by many players who do not understand the scope of drugs and their uses in racing. Seems its easier to assume most are cheating, and blame it on poor testing, and clever chemists, when in fact a miniscule amount of actual drugging for cheating purposes occurs. In fact a recent article ( aint much on links and retrieving them...) points out the fact that in the last several months going back quite some time, only 1 (one) Class 1 violation has been detected amongst the thousands of tests performed. Foks automaticly assume that since, say, Pletcher caught a positive, he is cheating, when in fact the circumstances surrounding the actual administration and type of drug is seldom considered. Lets be thankful that these violations are in fact caught, or just imagine how corrupt it really could be vs reality. The perceived notion that the powers that be are in bed with violators, and going easy on them is expained as I just described above, and this is something that players seem not to understand. We gonna toss Pletcher out for life because an assistant screwed up using a legal drug? No-give him the days under trainer resposibility rules, and allow appeals, ect...thats how it works.

[pandy]

I agree with you that the system works in many of these positives, but certainly not all. There are times where a trainer is using a drug and altering the outcome of the race, which is a form of race fixing.

For instance, when Eric Ledford was using EPO at the Meadowlands a few years ago. None of his horses tested positive for EPO, but since he was winning over 30%, the state police investigated and found the EPO. In a case like that, the penalty must be severe. Ledford got off easy. For over a year he was basically fixing races. When a trainer uses an illegal drug on a horse and the horse wins, he has tampered with a sporting event, which is a crime, and can be prosecuted as a felony. To give someone a 60 day suspension and fine him or her for a few thousand dollars is certainly not just punishment for that type of criminal activity.

[Hanover1]

I agree with you that the system works in many of these positives, but certainly not all. There are times where a trainer is using a drug and altering the outcome of the race, which is a form of race fixing.

For instance, when Eric Ledford was using EPO at the Meadowlands a few years ago. None of his horses tested positive for EPO, but since he was winning over 30%, the state police investigated and found the EPO. In a case like that, the penalty must be severe. Ledford got off easy. For over a year he was basically fixing races. When a trainer uses an illegal drug on a horse and the horse wins, he has tampered with a sporting event, which is a crime, and can be prosecuted as a felony. To give someone a 60 day suspension and fine him or her for a few thousand dollars is certainly not just punishment for that type of criminal activity.

And not just Ledford, as you are aware......every great body of water has its share of scum to be sure.....Pena is overdue and its no secret. Aged war veterans of the track with 60+ starts at the bottom of the barrel do not (at least in my lifetime) drop 2-3 seconds off lifetime marks with new shoes and hopple adjustments. Auckland Reactor may have been overrated, as proven with time, but the first horse to beat him here in USA was the horse that started all the public disclosure, and it seems a big pattern has emerged. This type of stuff kills us all.........remember the milkshake debacle? Same scenario is unfolding, and time will reveal this.........

[46zilzal]

ONE of the many many things about Bute that people forget that is DOSE related is it's ability to lower platelet cohesion so IT PROMOTES BLEEDING!!!

Many a horse at autopsy that was on years of this has erosions in the intimal layer of major blood vessels.

[46zilzal]

Necropsy on the horse that blew an aneurysm during the B C Sprint at Belmont in 1990 was due to intimal erosion of the aorta from Bute.

[Spalding No!]

Necropsy on the horse that blew an aneurysm during the B C Sprint at Belmont in 1990 was due to intimal erosion of the aorta from Bute.
What was the source of this statement?

Seems kind of odd to have such a precise recollection of a confidential necropsy report and yet not be able to recall the name of the horse.

[46zilzal]

What was the source of this statement?

Seems kind of odd to have such a precise recollection of a confidential necropsy report and yet not be able to recall the name of the horse.
Mr. Nickerson

SOME of the data reported here:http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/28/sports/breeder-s-cup-racing-s-darkest-day-belmont-disaster-go-for-wand-mr-nickerson.html

[cj]

Mr. Nickerson

SOME of the data reported here:http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/28/sports/breeder-s-cup-racing-s-darkest-day-belmont-disaster-go-for-wand-mr-nickerson.html

Nothing about Bute in the entire article.

[Spalding No!]

Nothing about Bute in the entire article.
Looks like 46zilzal's statement itself just suffered sudden death syndrome.

The necropsy will probably reveal a giant pile of BS as the cause of death.

[Robert Fischer]

I agree with you that the system works in many of these positives, but certainly not all. There are times where a trainer is using a drug and altering the outcome of the race, which is a form of race fixing.

For instance, when Eric Ledford was using EPO at the Meadowlands a few years ago. None of his horses tested positive for EPO, but since he was winning over 30%, the state police investigated and found the EPO. In a case like that, the penalty must be severe. Ledford got off easy. For over a year he was basically fixing races. When a trainer uses an illegal drug on a horse and the horse wins, he has tampered with a sporting event, which is a crime, and can be prosecuted as a felony. To give someone a 60 day suspension and fine him or her for a few thousand dollars is certainly not just punishment for that type of criminal activity.
wow i know of EL , never heard of his criminal acts.
absolutely disgusting that he is allowed around horses or gambling.
One of the tracks he still is allowed to ride at, The Meadows, suffers from a trainer-gap in a lot of it's races in spite of having a good slots situation.