Are Super Trainers Using ITPP?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

It is undetectable using today's testings. It apparently "makes the hemoglobin in blood release more of its oxygen, enhancing physical performance in a swift and powerful way."
http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=83740

This might explain a lot.

Unfortunately, unless a super trainer is caught red handed, all us Horseplayers can do either bet their horses and usually take very low odds, or bet against their horses with supreme caution.

[Charlie D]

But, for starters, they desperately need approximately $50,000 for equipment and synthesizing costs in tackling the ITPP project. Consider this their indirect request for money from the industry.






Run one less race at a few slot fueled tracks and financing problem is sorted, but bugger that eh!, fill horsemens pockets so the can buy more Dope!!!

[The_Knight_Sky]

There's plenty of options for funding:


Over the past few months, and despite their unanimity of purpose, the scientists haven’t blitzed the media world with news of their need for research funding on such a hot topic. I don’t know why they’ve dropped the ball in this fashion. And I suppose it doesn’t really matter. Through the Pennsylvania Harness Racing Commission, there has been some funding for the New Bolton work. For example, horsemen and horsewomen represented by the state’s three harness tracks currently contribute. And there are plenty of other organizations in and around Pennsylvania who also contribute to the Racing Commission for this purpose. But the scientists need more money and they need it now.

Going forward, there is no doubt in my mind that the big breeders in Pennsylvania and New Jersey and New York and Kentucky will pony up (again) to help get the doctors going. Perhaps there is also money to be distributed from the Hambletonian Society for such a noble venture. Perhaps Chris McErlean at Penn National can get his colleagues to open up one of their vaults and help out on behalf of Freehold Raceway. Perhaps our colleagues in Ontario, at the Woodbine Entertainment Group, would see the long-term value of moving quickly (or at least a little quicker) at eradicating the international threat posed by ITPP.

How would this ITPP work with the thoroughbreds?
Specifically, with/without the use of hyperbaric chambers?

[Horseplayersbet.com]

How would this ITPP work with the thoroughbreds?
Specifically, with/without the use of hyperbaric chambers?
I think you only need to dissolve the stuff in water:
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=37088

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Run one less race at a few slot fueled tracks and financing problem is sorted, but bugger that eh!, fill horsemens pockets so the can buy more Dope!!!
Every trainer is looking for an edge. I'm convinced that if a blue pill was discovered to improve a horse's performance, and the trainer was told it isn't tested for, the overwhelming majority wouldn't even ask what it is and just use it.

More thoughts:
http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2010/09/is-itpp-super-trainers-drug-of-choice.html

[Charlie D]

Every trainer is looking for an edge. I'm convinced that if a blue pill was discovered to improve a horse's performance, and the trainer was told it isn't tested for, the overwhelming majority wouldn't even ask what it is and just use it.


Yep and someone like Fabre, Stoute, O'Brien could probably say to US horsemen he uses Y product and make a nice profit from commision on a product that has zero effect on performance.

[ezpace]

Honest vets say there are at least a dozen designer
drugs that can't be tested globally. This was stated
just before the triple crown by an honest vet but not publicly. fwiw

[Hanover1]

Some contradictions are evident here. One of the articles quoted and linked to state that (according to the quote of the doctor) that it is easily detectable. And now we have an article suggesting that we need 50k in order to be able to do this. I am confused. It is, or it is not......
And to question whether or not "supertrainers" are using this substance is unfounded speculation, and a blanket statement towards the most sucessfull of our lot that are winning races at this time. It suggests that noone is capable of bringing a horse along to its potential, and so they/we cheat.
Who are these "supertrainers" you refer to? Name names-thought so...
Many say that hitting a 95mph fastball is the hardest thing to do in sports. If a guy does it 3 out of 10 times, he is considered a very good hitter, and is usaully on a streak that occurs regularly in sports. Akin to a 30-40% win rate at any meet at any given time. Using the logic that is so often used on this board, this raises the question of whether or not the streak hitter is using as well. Amusing at best, yet a testament to just how players who support the sport perceive/promote their own interests.

[Hanover1]

Honest vets say there are at least a dozen designer
drugs that can't be tested globally. This was stated
just before the triple crown by an honest vet but not publicly. fwiw

Surprised that admin did not call for explicit details to confirm this statement, but since he buys into this heresay and takes it as factual, why should he? In the event the drugs do exist, no mention of who is using, at least that is factual by its omission.

[NY BRED]

Curing this problem is not complex.

Once a trainer is found guilty of using illegal medication, the
Stewards should fine the OWNER for money won in the respective
race. even if the horse did not finish in the money.

I doubt these Super trainers would last very long under such a ruling..

[point given]

Paul Moran posted this article over on ESPN in reaction to the quoted article.Included is a call to post vets along with trainer info and the obligaory call for funding

."..... But seldom is the accusatory finger pointed entirely in the right direction. Pointing fingers in this case requires both hands.
Trainers are the focus of scrutiny and pay the price, eventually, in suspensions and fines when science finally, if only temporarily, overtakes the cheaters. But how many trainers are really sophisticated in such matters? Almost none. When something like ITPP is introduced into the racing arena -- as is the case in every chemical flavor of the moment -- it is the work of the veterinary community, which operates in the shadows, hidden from public scrutiny. The industry has ignored or resisted years of suggestion that the attending veterinarian be included with other publicly disclosed information -- identified along with the trainer, owner and jockey. It is past time to implement disclosure of what could well be a most-enlightening bit of information too long denied to the public "......

" ....
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=moran_paul&id=5601304

[PaceAdvantage]

Surprised that admin did not call for explicit details to confirm this statement, but since he buys into this heresay and takes it as factual, why should he? In the event the drugs do exist, no mention of who is using, at least that is factual by its omission.Do you have a problem? If so, please state what that problem is, specifically.

Why exactly would I call for specific details to confirm ezpace's statement? There is nothing to confirm as he did not name any names!!!

But you knew this already, didn't you?

[Hanover1]

Do you have a problem? If so, please state what that problem is, specifically.

Why exactly would I call for specific details to confirm ezpace's statement? There is nothing to confirm as he did not name any names!!!

But you knew this already, didn't you?

Thank you for pointing out exactly what my "problem" is.....there is nothing to confirm anything he posted is there? But you knew this already, didn't you? The emperors clothes are showing yet again.....

[pandy]

NY BRED has the right idea. Too many people want to focus on better science to find the illegal drugs. But even more important is the punishment. Once the guy is caught, the trainer AND owner must be severely punished. In both thoroughbred racing and harness racing, the cheats get off way too easy. Look at t-bred trainers like R. Dutrow, Jeff Mullins for instance. They have had a slew of suspensions, their horses keep racing under an assistants name for a few months then they are back in business. The owner only loses purse money from one race and faces no further discipline, and many times the corrupt owner simply moves his horses to another cheating trainer.

[PaceAdvantage]

Thank you for pointing out exactly what my "problem" is.....there is nothing to confirm anything he posted is there? But you knew this already, didn't you? The emperors clothes are showing yet again.....Do you even understand libel law?

[Hanover1]

Do you even understand libel law?

So lets use baseless innuendo instead....I get it now.

[PaceAdvantage]

So lets use baseless innuendo instead....I get it now.Is that a no? Because if you understood libel law and you understood one of my primary functions here, you would step off and pronto, as you are bordering on the ridiculous.

Go after the the person who actually made the post. It's not my job to censor posts which do not violate the terms of this board.

[Tom]

...especially when they are more likely than not true.

I have said all along, fine them the pool they tainted with their cheating then ban them for life -first offense.

Zero tolerance. You beak the rules, you find a job at Piggly Wiggly.

[Stillriledup]

Surprised that admin did not call for explicit details to confirm this statement, but since he buys into this heresay and takes it as factual, why should he? In the event the drugs do exist, no mention of who is using, at least that is factual by its omission.

No one is going to come out and name names. Personally, i'd rather hear statements where no names are mentioned, i believe that when no names are mentioned, you get statements that are more likely to be true. Once names get mentioned, its harder to get the actual truth because there can be an agenda. For example, if there's a baseball poll amongst current players that says who's the most overrated player in the game, its pretty obvious that Derek Jeter is going to win, the poll is blind so players have no reason to lie. But, if you asked a player during a face to face interview "is Derek Jeter the most overrated player" there's 0 percent chance he'll say yes. I'd rather see the blind poll results than the interview where we know the names and faces.

[Robert Fischer]

from a realist perspective, the way that the rules are enforced, it is hard not come to the conclusion that part of the fun for owners is to use various substances, vets, and trainers to enhance performance.

[Hanover1]

from a realist perspective, the way that the rules are enforced, it is hard not come to the conclusion that part of the fun for owners is to use various substances, vets, and trainers to enhance performance.

The owners I have been associated with would strongly disagree with this statement. To know one of their horses performance had always been enhanced in some manner means to them that they never had the chance to see the natural abilities of said horse. Real tough to sell a decent stud fee to others with an "enhanced" reputation. Won't even go into the issues involved with the mares, but you get the idea.

[Robert Fischer]

you keep good company. If those owners have great skill and great stock, they can still be successful.

i'm talking about the overall reality

most of these horses don't have any breeding value whatsoever

the claiming game is where you see a lot of the obvious signs that no one does anything about.

but when swine like biancone still gets classier horses it doesn't make a good case that even the top class racing is exempt. Even at the higher classes, extreme care is taken to not test for certain powerful performance enhancers.

there's a reward for cheating, and it is not punished. Therefore it is "part of the game".

[Hanover1]

you keep good company. If those owners have great skill and great stock, they can still be successful.

i'm talking about the overall reality

most of these horses don't have any breeding value whatsoever

the claiming game is where you see a lot of the obvious signs that no one does anything about.

but when swine like biancone still gets classier horses it doesn't make a good case that even the top class racing is exempt. Even at the higher classes, extreme care is taken to not test for certain powerful performance enhancers.

there's a reward for cheating, and it is not punished. Therefore it is "part of the game".

Not convinced, and never was, that there were rewards for cheating. On that note, it would take a conspiracy the scope of the Grassy Knoll to get any particular horses specimen to to become exempt from current testing guidelines in place at any given track. If extreme care was taken somewhere not to test for these enhancers as you describe, they would be running fields of 12, 15 times a day at that track. Last I checked, many tracks have trouble filling races/cards, so draw conclusions as you wish.

[Trotman]

hanover1 you seem to have a bone to pick for some reason and at this point I would say anyone who is opposite to you
that's it you're in their face, like many of your responces.
Why not just leave the room this could still be a good thread. :bang:

[pandy]

Why isn't Hanover entitled to his opinion? This is a forum, if you disagree, disagree and make your point, don't tell someone to leave.

[Hanover1]

hanover1 you seem to have a bone to pick for some reason and at this point I would say anyone who is opposite to you
that's it you're in their face, like many of your responces.
Why not just leave the room this could still be a good thread. :bang:

You are a wealth of information on this topic. Thanks for the post.......

[Trotman]

Horse racing has always been the have's and the have not's. There is no doubt that there is a line and it's always the small time guy who has no where to turn that gets nailed and becomes the example of racing cracking down.
Until there is ONE National body that rules, all this kind of debate is words in the wind.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Horse racing has always been the have's and the have not's. There is no doubt that there is a line and it's always the small time guy who has no where to turn that gets nailed and becomes the example of racing cracking down.
Until there is ONE National body that rules, all this kind of debate is words in the wind.

You can be rest assured that a small trainer will get a "Example" made out of him far quicker then a big named trainer.
"

[Robert Fischer]

Not convinced, and never was, that there were rewards for cheating. On that note, it would take a conspiracy the scope of the Grassy Knoll to get any particular horses specimen to to become exempt from current testing guidelines in place at any given track. If extreme care was taken somewhere not to test for these enhancers as you describe, they would be running fields of 12, 15 times a day at that track. Last I checked, many tracks have trouble filling races/cards, so draw conclusions as you wish.

"rewards for cheating" could really have a "deep" meaning depending on beliefs and/or perspective... but what I am simply talking about is the literal advantage(s) that the guys who effectively use performance enhancers enjoy. I can't address Trotman's harsh comments without context(although looking back within this thread alone I can see areas of potential frustration), but I do agree with Trotman in his post #27 entirely. I also don't have any problem with your[Hanover1's] response. As a matter of fact, I often appreciate intelligent debate (to the point up to redundancy) more than consensus or token.

I'm not Jose Canseco, but I have a reasonably strong insight into performance enhancement. And unfortunately I see it a great deal in horseracing. I wouldn't necessarily "fault" other players or fans who aren't aware of the extensive performance enhancing.

it would take a conspiracy the scope of the Grassy Knoll to get any particular horses specimen to to become exempt from current testing guidelines in place at any given track. I do not fall into much thought about conspiracy as far as testing games being played, or specimen 'tossing' :confused: is concerned. - Although wild conspiracies sell books, there really is no market for it among actual cheaters= It's simply extremely easy to cheat without failing any drug test. Extensive amount of scientific "loop holes" from flat out undetectable/betterYetUntested PEs, and substances that obscure certain modes of detection (for example urinalysis) which may even be the only test for certain PE substances, are OFTEN overlooked entirely. Another oft-overlooked factor are the rules themselves. As simple as it sounds, many players and fans are under an impression of the rules that is actually much different if said rules were to be read over a few times and comprehended, in addition to the already mentioned detection loopholes (many of which are unfamiliar [outside of better regulated competitive sports] and some of which are fairly common knowledge and form an ugly mockery of the rule itself...), there are also things written in the rules as far as certain threshold levels of VARIOUS so called banned PEs which unfortunately leads to some trainers believing that anything less than an "allowable range of ____" is unacceptable and the horse becomes a running study in and of itself, with plenty of blood samples drawn to learn "best practice". The basic cheats that I see without looking too hard are PainGuys, BloodGuys, and SteroidHormoneGuys (and of course those knuckleheadz who refuse to specialize, and try to be a jack of all trades :rolleyes: ). When you look at other sports with systematic well designed and funded testing, that ban more than bad press, you see signs here and there of the technology and the scientific envelope being pushed with cells etc... but there isn't the need in horseracing to develop such methods when the conventional stuff is working so well. Anyway it's 2am and I know I'm sick of the subject... :ThmbUp:

[joanied]

This 'new drug', ITPP was 'introduced'...by whom?? This is how I see it, with this new drug, or any drug...it isn't the trainers or owners that 'go shopping' for drugs...it's the vets that introduce a drug to a trainer...isn't it? It's the vet that shows up at the barn with a truck full of goodies that tells a trainer what to use on any particular horse, and the vets know better than anyone what the drug will do, how long it'll last, what the side effects are, yadda,yadda,yadda...
so, IMO, when a trainer is caught with a postive the vet on call should also pay a price...maybe if all three, trainer, owner & vet are 'charged' for a postive, we'd have less of them...in fact, the trainer & vet should be #1 in order of penalties given for any infraction, because sometime the owner really has no clue...

first we need, as mentioned before, ONE body of experts to be in charge of all testing and it's outcomes...with rules in every state exactly the same, and the penalties for postives in every state exactly the same...caught once, 6 months out of the game, no handing horses over to assistants, the entire barn cannot enter races for the full 6 months...caught a second time...trainer looses his lic. to train...owner is fined, vet on call is suspended from practicing at tracks across the country for 6 months with the first positive, and one year with a second.

Did I make sense here?
Hope so.