Before and After the Derby

[keithw84]

These questions are based just on my observations...

Is there an unwritten rule or understanding that stakes level horses won't race 10 furlongs before the Kentucky Derby?

Also, it seems that most stakes races for older horses are for those ages 4 and up before the Derby, but 3 and up after the Derby. Is the Derby considered the point at which 3-year-olds can start racing in open company?

[cj's dad]

These questions are based just on my observations...

Is there an unwritten rule or understanding that stakes level horses (tough definition to make- how do you determine a stakes level horse in the spring of its' 3 year old season ??)won't race 10 furlongs before the Kentucky Derby? NO !! it's just the way it is !

Also, it seems that most stakes races for older horses are for those ages 4 and up before the Derby, but 3 and up after the Derby. Is the Derby considered the point at which 3-year-olds can start racing in open company?

Have you heard of the Florida, Arkansas, Santa Anita Derbys, the Blue Grass Stakes, the Wood Memorial, etc.... all are highly anticapated races which set up the TC races. All of these are open to fillies, as in OPEN company.

[keithw84]

"Open company" was the wrong term. What I meant was "against older horses" as opposed to only horses that are the same age.

[cj's dad]

"Open company" was the wrong term. What I meant was "against older horses" as opposed to only horses that are the same age.

Keith; apparently you are new to the game. The TC races are restricted to 3 year olds.

[keithw84]

Obviously, I have not been clear. What I am saying is: It seems that most major stakes races for older horses that are early in the year are for horses 4 and up (e.g. Apple Blossom, Donn Handicap, etc.), whereas the ones later in the year (Woodward, Beldame, etc.) are for horses 3 and up.

I am wondering if there is a set time of the year when races for older horses switch from being 4 and up to 3 and up, or if it is arbitrary at each track.

If I am mistaken, what are some G1 races prior to the Derby that are 3+ or what are some after the Derby that are 4+?

I only bring up the Derby because the beginning of May seems to be the first time that 3 year olds are able to face older horses (obviously not in the Derby itself)

[Some_One]

Whether the Donn was 3+ or 4+, wouldn't make a difference, especially over a route of ground, the 3yr is still a young developing horse who wouldn't be able to run with their elders just yet. According to Dave (HSH)'s pars, a 3yr old in Apr should be 6 lengths slower (~10 Beyer points) then their elders over 9f. In the US, trainers love the restricted black type that is available, so they'll go for the 3yr only everytime.

[PhantomOnTour]

Some are missing the point of the original poster. He wants to know (i think):

A) Why are there no Ky Derby preps at 1m1/4 and is it some unwritten rule that governs this?

B) Big stakes races before the Derby exclude 3yr olds but include them afterwards. Given that, is the period after the Triple Crown considered the time when top 3yr olds are 'ready' to face older?

My best answers would be:
A) Good question
B) as a previous poster stated, there is no reason for stakes quality 3yr olds to run vs older horses since they have plenty high dollar races in the spring that serve as derby preps. It makes sense to run in these races even if your horse is a cut below a Derby contender. Plus, they are too slow by a wide margin at that point in the year (also previously stated). They still aren't ready for older horses after the TC either. Typically after a short summer break the top 3yr olds will begin to take on graded quality older horses.
I will have to check to see when tracks begin carding these stakes for 3 up.

Waiting for Lookin At Lucky.....

[Java Gold@TFT]

My best answers would be:
A) Good question
B) as a previous poster stated, there is no reason for stakes quality 3yr olds to run vs older horses since they have plenty high dollar races in the spring that serve as derby preps. It makes sense to run in these races even if your horse is a cut below a Derby contender. Plus, they are too slow by a wide margin at that point in the year (also previously stated). They still aren't ready for older horses after the TC either. Typically after a short summer break the top 3yr olds will begin to take on graded quality older horses.
I will have to check to see when tracks begin carding these stakes for 3 up.

Waiting for Lookin At Lucky.....
Tell that to 3yo winners of the Met Mile like Gulch, Holy Bull and Conquistador Cielo. Generally run 3-4 weeks after the Derby.

As far as Question A: Didn't they run a 3yo stakes in Dubai at 10F a couple of years ago in the Spring? Not sure why they backed it back to 9F.

[stuball]

We can see how the derby knocks out horses...the breed has been bred to faster but shorter in distance capabilities.
What trainer would risk running a horse a mile and a quarter
before the derby? At the risk of knocking him off the derby trail. Close to none would be my guess..3 yo's are a fragile
group as are all T-breds nowadays..

Stuball

[Linny]

3yo's are like the Junior Varsity team. They are just not as strong or mature (typically) as the older horses. There is alot of money and prestige in running in the big 3yo races like the major TC preps and of course the classics. As we have seen, most of those running in the "big preps" never really turn out to be as good as they may have looked while facing their own kind. Why push a 3yo to run against older, presumably better competition when there is easier spots with more money and pretige on the TC trail?

Since there are almost no races at 10f on dirt anyhow, it's pretty unlikely any 3yo will ever get to try it before the Derby. The Derby distance is becoming an anomaly, as the Belmont distance did some years ago.

[46zilzal]

Canonero II ran in, and won one at 10 furlongs as the only one in recent memory who even tried it before the K Derby.

[cj]

Canonero II ran in, and won one at 10 furlongs as the only one in recent memory who even tried it before the K Derby.

There have been others:

Outta Here, 2003, and Essence of Dubai, 2002, for sure.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

went on to win the Kentucky Derby?

I was thinking a track like Philly (AKA Parx) would be smart to do a 9F dirt race mid-week about 3.5 weeks before the Derby. It wouldn't be graded at first, but if you put up $100 or $150K you may get a fairly major player or two who for whatever reason didn't want to (or get a chance to do) a more major prep.

I doubt you would get as many horses if it was a 10F race, but that might be worth a try as well.

Certainly not the dumbest place to put a lot of the money they have right now, or you could let $5K claimers run for $75K, but that would be silly, right? right?

[DeanT]

went on to win the Kentucky Derby?

I was thinking a track like Philly (AKA Parx) would be smart to do a 9F dirt race mid-week about 3.5 weeks before the Derby. It wouldn't be graded at first, but if you put up $100 or $150K you may get a fairly major player or two who for whatever reason didn't want to (or get a chance to do) a more major prep.

I doubt you would get as many horses if it was a 10F race, but that might be worth a try as well.

Certainly not the dumbest place to put a lot of the money they have right now, or you could let $5K claimers run for $75K, but that would be silly, right? right?

I think that's a sharp idea.

With horses being pushed so hard before the Derby, I often thought that we might see horses who are in with graded earnings, want an easier spot to prep. Why would you want your horses coming off a major slugfest with several good horses in the Wood, when you can cruise in with an easy win at a race like you mention?

I think Dutrow proved that following the old game of preps leaves you sometimes firing the Derby bullets with a tweaked horse, and a different approach is needed in this day and age.

[Linny]

went on to win the Kentucky Derby?

I was thinking a track like Philly (AKA Parx) would be smart to do a 9F dirt race mid-week about 3.5 weeks before the Derby. It wouldn't be graded at first, but if you put up $100 or $150K you may get a fairly major player or two who for whatever reason didn't want to (or get a chance to do) a more major prep.

I doubt you would get as many horses if it was a 10F race, but that might be worth a try as well.

Certainly not the dumbest place to put a lot of the money they have right now, or you could let $5K claimers run for $75K, but that would be silly, right? right?

The problem is that the type of horses looking for that kind of race (read: relatively easy) are also looking for GRADED earnings to get into the Derby. The horses that are atop the standings are looking to boost their stud value and historical standing by running in elite races like the Wood Mem. and the Blue Grass etc. Until such a race has a grade, it serves little purpose and I'm not sure it would attract enough quality to merit a grade when it becomes eligible.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

understand both points (the graded earning and the stud value). My target horse would be from the following groups:

* Those that have enough graded earnings and just need a well-timed dirt prep.

* Those that have enough earnings but are a little scared to face the really big contenders before Kentucky.

* Those that are in the second flight for a leading contended that has other horses in the major preps - i.e. Pletcher.

* One that has the Preakness or Belmont as a target more so than the Derby.

* Local 3-year olds who want to take a shot for some nice $$$.

Could that bring in 6-8 horses and make for the best race on a random Wednesday or Thursday in April? I think so (but I don't claim to know so).

[nearco]

Given there are so few races at 10f on dirt as it is, and getting fewer (how long before the JCGC becomes a 9f affair?), it's unlikely trainers would even consider running a 3yo in a 10f race as a Derby prep.
The UAE Derby was a 2000m (10f) race for a few years before being cut back to 1800m (9f). That race never did attract many American shippers, still doesn't.

And yes, generally WFA races in the early part of the year are 4yo+, as the 3yos have plenty on their plate. There are however a few 2yo+ races in Europe, like the Prix de l'Abbaye G1 and Nunthrope G1.
In Australia a few 3yos have contested the Melbourne Cup and Cox Plate, which is the equivalent of a northern hemisphere 3yo taking on older horses in April. They get a sizable weight break for doing so.

[WinterTriangle]

Some are missing the point of the original poster. He wants to know (i think):

A) Why are there no Ky Derby preps at 1m1/4 and is it some unwritten rule that governs this?



Getting a horse fit to reliably run those distances takes time and patience to build them, and of course, that assumes that our breeding and training programs support the longer distances. Which they don't, because it's not financially lucrative.

1-1/4 is the outside limit of what most 3 year olds in North America are capable of running, based on the way we train and breed.

Which is why the KY Derby is the big one. Most of us go into handicapping it without knowing, or ever seeing, the horses run this far, because there is nothing to "go on" in terms of track performance.

[joanied]

keithw84...


and just to add a tiny tidbit of info...concerning the 3 yr. olds racing 1 1/4 mile before the Derby...back when horses were tough, there was a ppretty good one named Man O' War...he did not run in the Kentucky Derby because his owner thought NO 3 year old should run that distance so early in his 3 yr old year...

if there was ever any changes made to the TC series, and we have discussed this before...IMO, it would be to simply move the 3 races back...the Derby should be run in June.

[Linny]

The funny think about MOW and the 10f so early at 3 was the schedule he kept in the months of May/June. First, he didn't start 'til the Preakness, so MOW might not have been exactly "where they wanted him" in the early spring. Second, he ran on May 18 in the Preakness (9f) then the Withers on May 29 at 1 mile. He returned on June 12 for the Belmont at 1 3/8 then 10 days later won the Stuyvesant at a mile. Riddle may not have liked 10f but 11f was ok 5 weeks later on the heels of 2 races in May.

[Cratos]

keithw84...


and just to add a tiny tidbit of info...concerning the 3 yr. olds racing 1 1/4 mile before the Derby...back when horses were tough, there was a ppretty good one named Man O' War...he did not run in the Kentucky Derby because his owner thought NO 3 year old should run that distance so early in his 3 yr old year...

if there was ever any changes made to the TC series, and we have discussed this before...IMO, it would be to simply move the 3 races back...the Derby should be run in June.

John Nerud, Dr. Fager's trainer had the same sentiment.

[joanied]

John Nerud, Dr. Fager's trainer had the same sentiment.

Well, then...I'm in good company:) Thanks for posting that, now I feel a bit more credible about the idea.

[joanied]

The funny think about MOW and the 10f so early at 3 was the schedule he kept in the months of May/June. First, he didn't start 'til the Preakness, so MOW might not have been exactly "where they wanted him" in the early spring. Second, he ran on May 18 in the Preakness (9f) then the Withers on May 29 at 1 mile. He returned on June 12 for the Belmont at 1 3/8 then 10 days later won the Stuyvesant at a mile. Riddle may not have liked 10f but 11f was ok 5 weeks later on the heels of 2 races in May.

And in looking back, second guessing himself, maybe they could have, should have, ran in the Derby...but you know that sometimes 5 weeks can make a big difference with a young horse...MO'W no exception.