Baffert and synthetics

[Valupix]

Bob Baffert is winning an amazing 27% of his races this year. He's winning an even more incredible 30% of his sprints on synthetics. (22% of his route synthetics) All but 128 of his 517 starters (as of last weeks data) this year have been on surfaces other than synthetics.

Pre-synthetics: Baffert in 2005 had only a 20% win rate overall with 21% in dirt sprint and 22% in dirt routes. 2006: only 22% overall win rate, with 25% in dirt sprints and 23% in dirt routes. Those are still outstanding numbers, but they are dwarfed by his current synthetics numbers.

Not so bad for a guy that supposedly can’t figure out how to adjust to synthetic surfaces.

[andymays]

Bob Baffert is winning an amazing 27% of his races this year. He's winning an even more incredible 30% of his sprints on synthetics. (22% of his route synthetics) All but 128 of his 517 starters (as of last weeks data) this year have been on surfaces other than synthetics.

Pre-synthetics: Baffert in 2005 had only a 20% win rate overall with 21% in dirt sprint and 22% in dirt routes. 2006: only 22% overall win rate, with 25% in dirt sprints and 23% in dirt routes. Those are still outstanding numbers, but they are dwarfed by his current synthetics numbers.

Not so bad for a guy that supposedly can’t figure out how to adjust to synthetic surfaces.

He's figured it out but he doesn't like what he's figured out. Too many injuries. There's a reason he's against synthetics.

Bob knows synthetic surfaces are bad for the game.

[joanied]

He's figured it out but he doesn't like what he's figured out. Too many injuries. There's a reason he's against synthetics.

Bob knows synthetic surfaces are bad for the game.

Indeed, andy...and he doesn't pull any punches talking about it...he's my man:ThmbUp:

[cj]

This sounds similar to those that automatically assume because a bettor doesn't like rubber it means the bettor doesn't do well betting the stuff. It is a false assumption.

[PaceAdvantage]

Not so bad for a guy that supposedly can’t figure out how to adjust to synthetic surfaces.The fact that he isn't at the forefront supporting synthetics in the face of his success speaks volumes.

[Stillriledup]

The fact that he isn't at the forefront supporting synthetics in the face of his success speaks volumes.

Actions speak louder than words, i agree 100 percent with this.

His success is cosmetic, you see the surface, but many don't get to see the underbelly. Sure, Bob's had winners, but what about all the horses he has that are getting injured that no one talks about.

If Bob Baffert says the plastic tracks are junk, that's good enough for me.

[JustRalph]

This sounds similar to those that automatically assume because a bettor doesn't like rubber it means the bettor doesn't do well betting the stuff. It is a false assumption.

speak for yourself :lol:

[bisket]

i tryed to bring this to light before, but got shouted down. i think synthetics have helped baffert. bullet bob during the years before synthetics and after war emblem. (although emblem was a rabbit in his own right) i believe just worked his horses to fast to often. he ended up with a barn full of sprinters, but in many cases if trained a little differently many could have gone a route of ground. i think the synthetics forced him to back off on his works, and in many cases this helped the horses to gain more stamina because they learned to relax. sometimes what you like the least ends up helping you the most.....

i still say poly track or tapeta or whatever has a place in this game. there are many horses that have trained on it that can run a route much better than horses trained on dirt. maybe its a surface that just needs to be at training tracks? i dunno

[Show Me the Wire]

I hope all the ASW tracks revert to dirt, because I can't take all the pissing and moaning anymore.

[Saratoga_Mike]

i tryed to bring this to light before, but got shouted down. i think synthetics have helped baffert. bullet bob during the years before synthetics and after war emblem. (although emblem was a rabbit in his own right) i believe just worked his horses to fast to often. he ended up with a barn full of sprinters, but in many cases if trained a little differently many could have gone a route of ground. i think the synthetics forced him to back off on his works, and in many cases this helped the horses to gain more stamina because they learned to relax. sometimes what you like the least ends up helping you the most.....

i still say poly track or tapeta or whatever has a place in this game. there are many horses that have trained on it that can run a route much better than horses trained on dirt. maybe its a surface that just needs to be at training tracks? i dunno

His multiple Triple Crown winners prior to synthetics don't really support this assertion.

[DeanT]

Baffert is a complainer he always has been. When horses were breaking down at Del Mar he said he would not race there until they made the track safer. Then when they did that and changed to synth he raced there and complained it was slow. Then he said if they dont change back to dirt he is not going to race there. Through it all - synth, dirt, slop, sealed, whatever, his horses are in the entry box. He's a first class complainer.

[bisket]

His multiple Triple Crown winners prior to synthetics don't really support this assertion.
maybe you didn't see that i stated AFTER WAR EMBLEM AND BEFORE SYNTHETICS. he had a pretty good run there where he was slowly becoming yesterdays news.... that was the point. and now today he's mr wonderful again... whats the one thing that was different between today and war emblem? synthetics!!

[Saratoga_Mike]

maybe you didn't see that i stated AFTER WAR EMBLEM AND BEFORE SYNTHETICS. he had a pretty good run there where he was slowly becoming yesterdays news.... that was the point. and now today he's mr wonderful again... whats the one thing that was different between today and war emblem? synthetics!!

You're essentially saying he trained horses really well up to and including War Emblem (explaining his Triple Crown successes), then he started training the hell out of them (working them too fast), which turned even the potentially good ones into just speed horses. Okay, so why did he change his training methods post-War Emblem? He wasn't happy with winning Triple Crown races?

[andymays]

Baffert is a complainer he always has been. When horses were breaking down at Del Mar he said he would not race there until they made the track safer. Then when they did that and changed to synth he raced there and complained it was slow. Then he said if they dont change back to dirt he is not going to race there. Through it all - synth, dirt, slop, sealed, whatever, his horses are in the entry box. He's a first class complainer.

The article you're basing your opinion on was false. The surface at Del Mar prior to 2007 was garbage and the complaints were valid. The first year at Del Mar for synthetic was ridiculous. Finally after 4 years they're starting to get a clue that it needs 3X as much maintenance and a bunch of water. In 2007 they were told by the manufacturer not to water it and not to use the machines over it after every race.

[DeanT]

The surface at Del Mar prior to 2007 was garbage and the complaints were valid. The first year at Del Mar for synthetic was ridiculous. Finally after 4 years they're starting to get a clue that it needs 3X as much maintenance and a bunch of water. In 2007 they were told by the manufacturer not to water it and not to use the machines over it after every race.

All of what you said is true. And that is what is expected if you change a surface, even if you change to a dirt surface. Anyone with a half a brain knows it will take time to perfect. but Baffert was there every year like a two year old child saying how he was going to not enter there. First class complainer.

[andymays]

All of what you said is true. And that is what is expected if you change a surface, even if you change to a dirt surface. Anyone with a half a brain knows it will take time to perfect. but Baffert was there every year like a two year old child saying how he was going to not enter there. First class complainer.

Wrooooonnnnnnggggg. The first year of synthetics was so bad and so slow and so biased it was a joke. They put in a surface they didn't know how to maintain.

This year every day on TVG they would comment on the inconsisency on the surface and how it changed from race to race.

Baffert is a class act and was the first to speak up about a fraudulent surface. Do I have to go over all the things that they claimed about them that didn't turn out to be true?

[andymays]

The fact that he isn't at the forefront supporting synthetics in the face of his success speaks volumes.

Exactly. :ThmbUp:

[andymays]

I hope all the ASW tracks revert to dirt, because I can't take all the pissing and moaning anymore.

You're welcome. It paid off for Santa Anita even though it took a while. ;)

[DeanT]

Baffert is a class act and was the first to speak up about a fraudulent surface.

If Lucifer agreed with you on the surface issue you would call him a class act :D

It's simple Andyroo - complain, whine, complain, whine; threaten every year to not enter a horse on the surface. Whine some more, complain some more - all as you are cashing purse check after purse check.

Hypocrite, complainer, whiner - take your pick.

[andymays]

If Lucifer agreed with you on the surface issue you would call him a class act :D

It's simple Andyroo - complain, whine, complain, whine; threaten every year to not enter a horse on the surface. Whine some more, complain some more - all as you are cashing purse check after purse check.

Hypocrite, complainer, whiner - take your pick.

He's a class act and a great ambassador for the sport. :ThmbUp:

I think the HANA board ought to issue him a medal of honor or something like it. ;) As long as you tell them I'm not behind it the measure will pass with you being the only dissenting vote. ;)

[DeanT]

He's a class act and a great ambassador for the sport. :ThmbUp:

I think the HANA board ought to issue him a medal of honor or something like it. ;) As long as you tell them I'm not behind it the measure will pass with you being the only dissenting vote. ;)

I am your biggest supporter, even though I think you are kind of nuts :D

Always nice to chat with you Andyroo, even if you wink at me.

[andymays]

I am your biggest supporter, even though I think you are kind of nuts :D

Always nice to chat with you Andyroo, even if you wink at me.

I resemble that remark. ;)

[FenceBored]

Boys, boys. Bob Baffert (like new Shimmer) is both a floor polish and a dessert topping.

[BluegrassProf]

See, we all have our qualms w/ various things in racing - breeding trends, tracks/surfaces, trainer methods, performance drugs, etc. And of course, we all have the very bestest solutions floating about in our heads, whatever the problem du jour might be.

But sadly, it's all for naught - why? Because the whole "reality" thing apparently doesn't quite make it all the way up the management ladder.

The 2010 meet was the fourth with a Polytrack surface. Harper continues to be pleased with the synthetic main track.

"Rich Tedesco did a great job after the first few days figuring out what needed to be done with it," said Harper. "The track, I think, was very consistent from then on, which is really what you’re looking for."

...

Asked whether Del Mar might eventually switch back to dirt now that Santa Anita has committed to a dirt surface, Harper said, "As long as the statistics are showing how much safer it is than dirt, we’d be foolish to move to dirt. Never say never—obviously, we’ll see what Santa Anita does, how it plays. I will tell you, there were more complaints about the dirt here than about the Polytrack, at least this year. There were more injuries on dirt. It was tougher to keep it more consistent. Statistically, across the country, you’re safer on Polytrack."
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58828/harper-wants-breeders-cup-to-keep-polytrack

[bisket]

You're essentially saying he trained horses really well up to and including War Emblem (explaining his Triple Crown successes), then he started training the hell out of them (working them too fast), which turned even the potentially good ones into just speed horses. Okay, so why did he change his training methods post-War Emblem? He wasn't happy with winning Triple Crown races?
good question.

[Stillriledup]

See, we all have our qualms w/ various things in racing - breeding trends, tracks/surfaces, trainer methods, performance drugs, etc. And of course, we all have the very bestest solutions floating about in our heads, whatever the problem du jour might be.

But sadly, it's all for naught - why? Because the whole "reality" thing apparently doesn't quite make it all the way up the management ladder.


http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/58828/harper-wants-breeders-cup-to-keep-polytrack

Harper the yes man to the rescue. Now Joe Harper knows more about racing surfaces than Bob Baffert.

You can't make it up.

[PaceAdvantage]

maybe you didn't see that i stated AFTER WAR EMBLEM AND BEFORE SYNTHETICS. he had a pretty good run there where he was slowly becoming yesterdays news.... that was the point. and now today he's mr wonderful again... whats the one thing that was different between today and war emblem? synthetics!!Lukas went through the same type of drought before synthetics were even a glimmer in Keeneland's eye, and he came roaring back, again, without the help of synthetics.

Maybe it's a former QH trainer thing...

[Robert Fischer]

- Whatever Baffert is doing has widened the trainer gap over the synthetic surfaces.

- Baffert is a "complainer", but he's also a self-promoter. He has a brand of brilliant dirt training and racing to defend regardless of results. IIRC his complaints were tied in with important owners.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Lukas went through the same type of drought before synthetics were even a glimmer in Keeneland's eye, and he came roaring back, again, without the help of synthetics.

Maybe it's a former QH trainer thing...

Perhaps Lukas and Baffert just had bad runs? I'd be very surprised if Baffert changed his training methods, as suggested by Bisket, after winning multiple Triple Crown races.

[andymays]

Perhaps Lukas and Baffert just had bad runs? I'd be very surprised if Baffert changed his training methods, as suggested by Bisket, after winning multiple Triple Crown races.

Just about all of the top trainers work their horses longer than they used to. There are a bunch more 6 and 7 furlong works and less 3 and 4 furlong works in my opinion.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Just about all of the top trainers work their horses longer than they used to. There are a bunch more 6 and 7 furlong works and less 3 and 4 furlong works in my opinion.

Bisket was making the case that Baffert changed his training methods after War Emblem's 2002 campaign, then the synthetics caused him to change again. He was saying after 2002 Baffert started to work his horses too fast in the morning. I just don't think Baffert changed anything about his training approach after War Emblem and up to synthetics. It doesn't make sense. If you won at the track 5 yrs straight betting just trifectas, in yr six would you abandon the tris and maybe give place betting a shot?

[andymays]

Bisket was making the case that Baffert changed his training methods after War Emblem's 2002 campaign, then the synthetics caused him to change again. He was saying after 2002 Baffert started to work his horses too fast in the morning. I just don't think Baffert changed anything about his training approach after War Emblem and up to synthetics. It doesn't make sense. If you won at the track 5 yrs straight betting just trifectas, in yr six would you abandon the tris and maybe give place betting a shot?

I thought he was talking about since 2007 when synthetics came to California.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I thought he was talking about since 2007 when synthetics came to California.

Sorry about that, yes, he was also saying Baffert changed his training methods since 2007. I don't dispute that possibility. I dispute that Baffert changed anything between 2002 and 2007.

[joanied]

I can't imagine anyone questioning Baffert's training methods...even my good bud, da bisket...the man is a brilliant trainer...and ,IMO, certainly not a complainer...he's simply saying what he thinks, and he could care less how many feathers he ruffles...he speaks the truth and IMO, he's one of the best spokesmen for racing that we have.

[Stillriledup]

Baffert changed his training method at Del Mar. He was working everything in 58 and getting poor results so he started working everying in 101.