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View Full Version : Those green rules.....killing jobs


JustRalph
09-09-2010, 12:54 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/07/AR2010090706933.html

The last light bulb factory in the U.S. is gone

From the Link:

WINCHESTER, VA. - The last major GE factory making ordinary incandescent light bulbs in the United States is closing this month, marking a small, sad exit for a product and company that can trace their roots to Thomas Alva Edison's innovations in the 1870s.

The remaining 200 workers at the plant here will lose their jobs.

"Now what're we going to do?" said Toby Savolainen, 49, who like many others worked for decades at the factory, making bulbs now deemed wasteful.

During the recession, political and business leaders have held out the promise that American advances, particularly in green technology, might stem the decades-long decline in U.S. manufacturing jobs. But as the lighting industry shows, even when the government pushes companies toward environmental innovations and Americans come up with them, the manufacture of the next generation technology can still end up overseas.

What made the plant here vulnerable is, in part, a 2007 energy conservation measure passed by Congress that set standards essentially banning ordinary incandescents by 2014. The law will force millions of American households to switch to more efficient bulbs.

The resulting savings in energy and greenhouse-gas emissions are expected to be immense. But the move also had unintended consequences.

Rather than setting off a boom in the U.S. manufacture of replacement lights, the leading replacement lights are compact fluorescents, or CFLs, which are made almost entirely overseas, mostly in China.

much more at the link

slewis
09-09-2010, 01:10 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/07/AR2010090706933.html


Rather than setting off a boom in the U.S. manufacture of replacement lights, the leading replacement lights are compact fluorescents, or CFLs, which are made almost entirely overseas, mostly in China.

much more at the link


Ralph....

Isn't THIS the real problem?

bigmack
09-09-2010, 01:23 AM
CFL's ain't even copasetic for Aunt Margie. If she drops one she's mandated to call a HAZMAT team.

LED is on the move. While more expensive they last forever and use a modicum of energy.

Green house gas from inefficient bulbs. :lol:

As someone who's in the energy biz, I chuckle at the herds buying green. Order-up!

Robert Goren
09-09-2010, 07:25 AM
Everyone I know has converted their light bulbs. I did it about 3 years ago. I haven't had to replace one since. No more climbing up step ladders to replace a light bulb. I am sorry that those people lost their jobs, but their management had kept up with the times and converted their factory to make the new bulbs they would still have jobs. Time march on and those who don't change will left behind just like buggy whip makers were a century ago.

DJofSD
09-09-2010, 08:04 AM
I am sorry that those people lost their jobs, but their management had kept up with the times and converted their factory to make the new bulbs they would still have jobs.
Get real, dude.

Robert Goren
09-09-2010, 08:21 AM
The saddest thing I see happening to this country is that we going from making things to making things up. Our best and brightest are not figuring out a way to make a better and cheaper light bulb, but are hard work at trying to come with something to replace the credit default swap. That does not bode well for the country.:(

GameTheory
09-09-2010, 09:37 AM
I've had to replace a number of "7-year bulbs" after less than a year -- some after a few months. (If you don't have super-clean power in your area they are not stable.) Plus it is very hard to find ones that don't flicker and give me a headache. (This is imperceptible to some people -- consider yourself lucky.) They give me wife a migraine -- they literally make her sick for hours sometimes when she's around a flickery one for just a few minutes. It will be a real problem if we can't get normal bulbs giving off normal light. We've got a few of them (and had to try many brands to find decent ones), but no way are ready to replace normal reading lights, etc. Do any give off warm light? I'm sitting under a lamp with two "warm" CFLs right now also with a warm tinted shade and the light is still pretty sickly cool. I have to supplement with another lamp with a old-style bulb to warm up the room a little so I don't feel like I'm in the hospital.

Hopefully the LEDs will be better. It would be nice if these "innovations" were at least as good as the thing they are supposed to replace. I can't imagine too many people replace their bulbs with these things and say, "Oh yeah, that's way better!" The only reason to do it is for the savings and dubious green benefits. Aesthetically they are a total failure. (And aesthetics matter -- people are healthier and more productive in pleasant environments -- there are always costs. Always costs.) It is tough to get behind these movements where I'm told I need to suffer in real ways for benefits that are invisible or non-existent.

highnote
09-09-2010, 09:47 AM
I can see how the flicker could be a problem and give some people headaches. Never thought of that. That's a game changer.

I've had a 7 year bulb on my porch for several years now. We never turn it off -- day or night. I've been leaving it on just to see how long it will last. I am amazed. My neigbor had cancer and died. Before he died he criticized me for wasting energy by leaving the light on all the time. Now I leave it on in his memory. Every time I see it I think of him. I know how long it has been on because I installed it while he was still alive. When it finally burns out I will replace it and turn it off during the day, but until then it's going to burn 24-7.

I've got long life bulbs in my living room lamps and they seem fine, but the ones in the ceiling fan in my kitchen are too dim. Sometimes they are very bright when I turn them on, but other times they don't come on as brightly. I don't understand that -- must be voltage related. I have tried to turn them off and then on again to force them to get brighter, but it doesn't work. So we live with dim lights in the kitchen.

I've had to replace a number of "7-year bulbs" after less than a year -- some after a few months. (If you don't have super-clean power in your area they are not stable.) Plus it is very hard to find ones that don't flicker and give me a headache. (This is imperceptible to some people -- consider yourself lucky.) They give me wife a migraine -- they literally make her sick for hours sometimes when she's around a flickery one for just a few minutes. It will be a real problem if we can't get normal bulbs giving off normal light. We've got a few of them (and had to try many brands to find decent ones), but no way are ready to replace normal reading lights, etc. Do any give off warm light? I'm sitting under a lamp with two "warm" CFLs right now also with a warm tinted shade and the light is still pretty sickly cool. I have to supplement with another lamp with a old-style bulb to warm up the room a little so I don't feel like I'm in the hospital.

Hopefully the LEDs will be better. It would be nice if these "innovations" were at least as good as the thing they are supposed to replace. I can't imagine too many people replace their bulbs with these things and say, "Oh yeah, that's way better!" The only reason to do it is for the savings and dubious green benefits. Aesthetically they are a total failure. (And aesthetics matter -- people are healthier and more productive in pleasant environments -- there are always costs. Always costs.) It is tough to get behind these movements where I'm told I need to suffer in real ways for benefits that are invisible or non-existent.

cj's dad
09-09-2010, 10:00 AM
Sweteyejohn: I can see how the flicker could be a problem and give some people headaches. Never thought of that. That's a game changer.



Game Theory:

Plus it is very hard to find ones that don't flicker and give me a headache. (This is imperceptible to some people -- consider yourself lucky.) They give me wife a migraine -- they literally make her sick for hours sometimes when she's around a flickery one for just a few minutes.






Epilepsy (http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/epilepsy.htm)

Mar 2, 2005 ... A structural cause is most likely to be found when epileptic attacks have a focal onset (meaning that they affect a ... Flickering lights, such as strobe lights in nightclubs, can trigger seizures in some people. ...


Link:
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/epilepsy.htm


Just as a side note, one of my duties as an electrical inspector is to do fire alarm inspections prior to the call for the Fire Marshal to give final approval.

It has been found that unsynchronized fire alarm strobe lights in a given area have been known to bring on epileptic seizures. Flickering fluorescents lights that cause headaches could be a precursor to a more serious problem.

Mike at A+
09-09-2010, 10:05 AM
As someone who leans conservative and believes that Al Gore is a total nutball, I actually like these bulbs. But not at the inflated prices I had seen in the past. They've come down quite a bit and the dealmaker for me was a big sale at Home Depot. I was there for something else when the display caught my eye. They were selling packages of 8 for something like $1.69 which is actually lower than what I was paying for "conventional" bulbs. So I bought 6 packages for about 10 bucks. It's been about a year since I installed about a dozen of them in my home and so far, none have burned out. As far as electricity usage goes, any savings will probably be insignificant as my last monthly electric bill was over $360 which really pissed me off but it seems that in this crappy economy, everyone is raising prices. If the bulbs last another year, I'll be happy. If they last the full 7 years as advertised, I'll probably end up giving some away or selling them at a yard sale.

GameTheory
09-09-2010, 10:27 AM
The ones I've got on the porch on are 24 hrs a day and so far the longest lasting one has been about 8 months. They are covered, so they don't get wet, but they do have to handle temperature changes, but I think it has more to do with the power coming into the house. The ones I've had in regular lamps have all burned out too. In fact I don't think I've had a single one last more than a year. And I still have them all cause I can only take 'em to a special store to get rid of 'em. (Which has now recently changed -- several of the chain stores will now take all the bulbs, batteries, and odd electronics you're not supposed to throw in the regular trash.)

Regarding flicker -- are you trying to say only those with some neurological problem would be bothered by FLICKERING lights? I don't think so. (It is not really a flicker, but a visible pulse instead of just a steady light. Like a CRT monitor when the refresh rate is set too low. I think if that DOESN'T give you a headache there is something wrong with you.) All fluorescent bulbs flicker -- they always have. But usually in environments like a store you've got a gazillion of them canceling each other out. But when you turn on only one in a single lamp it is noticeable. My wife and I are actually both sort of trained to see these things because we have experience in cinematography and photography -- trying to shoot (movie) film under a single florescent bulb is a nightmare because the flicker of the bulb doesn't match up with the frame-rate of the film (not to mention the sickly green color temperature), but if you have lots of 'em it is OK -- the flicker goes away and you can fix the color with a filter. (You see this flicker & green effect used on purpose in shows and movies where they want to make an apartment building look seedy or something like that.)

cj's dad
09-09-2010, 11:56 AM
First you said this:

" Plus it is very hard to find ones that don't flicker and give me a headache. (This is imperceptible to some people -- consider yourself lucky.) They give me wife a migraine -- they literally make her sick for hours sometimes when she's around a flickery one for just a few minutes."

Then you said this:

"Regarding flicker -- are you trying to say only those with some neurological problem would be bothered by FLICKERING lights? I don't think so. (It is not really a flicker, but a visible pulse instead of just a steady light"




After which I posted this:



Epilepsy (http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/epilepsy.htm)

Mar 2, 2005 ... A structural cause is most likely to be found when epileptic attacks have a focal onset (meaning that they affect a ... Flickering lights, such as strobe lights in nightclubs, can trigger seizures in some people. ..




And then I added this as an opinion:


"Flickering fluorescent lights that cause headaches could be a precursor to a more serious problem".




I never implied this:

"Regarding flicker -- are you trying to say only those with some neurological problem would be bothered by FLICKERING lights? I don't think so.

No !

JustRalph
09-09-2010, 12:14 PM
Tough room

DJofSD
09-09-2010, 12:22 PM
Tough room
How tough is it?

boxcar
09-09-2010, 12:44 PM
As someone who leans conservative and believes that Al Gore is a total nutball, I actually like these bulbs. But not at the inflated prices I had seen in the past. They've come down quite a bit and the dealmaker for me was a big sale at Home Depot. I was there for something else when the display caught my eye. They were selling packages of 8 for something like $1.69 which is actually lower than what I was paying for "conventional" bulbs. So I bought 6 packages for about 10 bucks. It's been about a year since I installed about a dozen of them in my home and so far, none have burned out. As far as electricity usage goes, any savings will probably be insignificant as my last monthly electric bill was over $360 which really pissed me off but it seems that in this crappy economy, everyone is raising prices. If the bulbs last another year, I'll be happy. If they last the full 7 years as advertised, I'll probably end up giving some away or selling them at a yard sale.

While on the subject of "energy saving", my brother-in-law read up some on these bulbs and the stuff he read claims that it takes more energy to produce one bulb than what the bulb will save in its lifetime. I'm not surprised at all at this revelation, especially since Big Gov supports the manufacture of them.

Also, the bulbs will probably live a long life, provided they're in locations where they don't have to be switched on/off frequently.

Meanwhile, I have been using a few of these environmentally-unfriendly, mercury-filled bulbs in select locations around my home for about 3 years. I have three of them in my garage, one out on my patio and two in my office (although, usually only one is on at any given time in the office). My wife and I do not like the kind of white, glaring light they emit. We both prefer softer lighting (and believe me when I say that we have enough incandescents stockpiled that we'll never have to buy another one as long as we live).

Bottom line: To date, we haven't had to replace one bulb -- not even the one if the office which is on around 16 hours a day every day. However, how much energy are we really saving? From my electric bills, I can't see any difference. I think the energy saving thing is a lot more hype than substance.

Boxcar

cj's dad
09-09-2010, 01:33 PM
Boxcar -

"Also, the bulbs will probably live a long life, provided they're in locations where they don't have to be switched on/off frequently".

Seriously reduces the life span of CFs'

GameTheory
09-09-2010, 02:05 PM
I never implied this:

"Regarding flicker -- are you trying to say only those with some neurological problem would be bothered by FLICKERING lights? I don't think so.

No !I guess I thought you were trying to make a point! After all, practically any discomfort or ailment could be the precursor to something more serious, but so what? Unless it is LIKELY, who cares?

bigmack
09-09-2010, 02:15 PM
I've had a 7 year bulb on my porch for several years now. We never turn it off -- day or night. I've been leaving it on just to see how long it will last. I am amazed.
I've never seen any rated beyond 15000 hours and the vast majority are rated 10000. 24/7/365 is 8760. If you've been running that for several years that is one magical bulb.

Americans might not want such a job as hundreds of Chinese workers have been hospitalized or died as a result of mercury poisoning.

DJofSD
09-09-2010, 02:32 PM
While on the subject of "energy saving", my brother-in-law read up some on these bulbs and the stuff he read claims that it takes more energy to produce one bulb than what the bulb will save in its lifetime. I'm not surprised at all at this revelation, especially since Big Gov supports the manufacture of them.

Also, the bulbs will probably live a long life, provided they're in locations where they don't have to be switched on/off frequently.

Meanwhile, I have been using a few of these environmentally-unfriendly, mercury-filled bulbs in select locations around my home for about 3 years. I have three of them in my garage, one out on my patio and two in my office (although, usually only one is on at any given time in the office). My wife and I do not like the kind of white, glaring light they emit. We both prefer softer lighting (and believe me when I say that we have enough incandescents stockpiled that we'll never have to buy another one as long as we live).

Bottom line: To date, we haven't had to replace one bulb -- not even the one if the office which is on around 16 hours a day every day. However, how much energy are we really saving? From my electric bills, I can't see any difference. I think the energy saving thing is a lot more hype than substance.

Boxcar

Sounds like a job for Mythbusters.

JustRalph
09-09-2010, 06:52 PM
While on the subject of "energy saving", my brother-in-law read up some on these bulbs and the stuff he read claims that it takes more energy to produce one bulb than what the bulb will save in its lifetime. I'm not surprised at all at this revelation, especially since Big Gov supports the manufacture of them.

This is the common problem with most environmental pushes. In the long term it is penny wise and pound foolish. The change over is a huge inconvenience and infrastructure changes that are needed to make these changes are extremely expensive.

A great example of this is "Ethanol"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/21/AR2008042102555.html

highnote
09-09-2010, 08:16 PM
I've never seen any rated beyond 15000 hours and the vast majority are rated 10000. 24/7/365 is 8760. If you've been running that for several years that is one magical bulb.

Our neighbor died between 2002 and 2005 -- as best my wife and I can remember. I keep thinking that bulb has to burn out any day, but it just keeps shining.

Originally Posted by boxcar
While on the subject of "energy saving", my brother-in-law read up some on these bulbs and the stuff he read claims that it takes more energy to produce one bulb than what the bulb will save in its lifetime. I'm not surprised at all at this revelation, especially since Big Gov supports the manufacture of them.

Same thing with solar panels. It takes more energy to make them than they'll ever produce and you won't recoup your cost of them until about 20 years.

46zilzal
09-09-2010, 08:47 PM
The Rantings Of Ann Coulter Environment
"God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"
Hannity & Colmes, 6/20/01

"The ethic of conservation is the explicit abnegation of man's dominion over the Earth. The lower species are here for our use. God said so: Go forth, be fruitful, multiply, and rape the planet — it's yours. That's our job: drilling, mining and stripping. Sweaters are the anti-Biblical view. Big gas-guzzling cars with phones and CD players and wet bars — that's the Biblical view."
Oil Good; Democrats bad; October 12, 2000

bigmack
09-09-2010, 09:14 PM
The Rantings Of Ann Coulter Environment
"God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"
Hannity & Colmes, 6/20/01

"The ethic of conservation is the explicit abnegation of man's dominion over the Earth. The lower species are here for our use. God said so: Go forth, be fruitful, multiply, and rape the planet — it's yours. That's our job: drilling, mining and stripping. Sweaters are the anti-Biblical view. Big gas-guzzling cars with phones and CD players and wet bars — that's the Biblical view."
Oil Good; Democrats bad; October 12, 2000
Have you been tested for dementia?

Tom
09-09-2010, 10:02 PM
More American jobs lost thanks to the bottom feeding anti-American democrats. It should be illegal to be a scum sucking democrat.

Stupid light bulbs that will cause many times the pollution they are supposed to prevent. And employee many foreigners.

Tom
09-09-2010, 10:05 PM
Our best and brightest are not figuring out a way to make a better and cheaper light bulb,

Because, there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THE EXISTING BULBS.
THERE IS NO MARKET FOR THIS STUPID GREEN-DUMB-ASS BULB.
The ONLY way it ever got in the market was by government mandate by brain- dead anti-American democrats.

What worries me is that Americans are to GD lazy to change a stupid light bulb, or in the case of democrats, too GD stupid.

How about this, - make it mandatory for every welfare anchor to prove he has changed light 20 bulbs for people every time he pick up his free-loading check?

Feel free to take notes.

Tom
09-09-2010, 10:09 PM
Have you been tested for dementia?

Bent the needle.